The cousin's very angry eruptions
teresa
We're staying for three weeks with my mom in Central Florida where my sister also lives with her 7-year-old daughter. I'm writing to ask for some insight into how to handle some pretty intense and--to me--disturbing conflicts between my niece and my oldest boy, 6.
My niece spent the summer away from her mom for the first time, with her dad in Atlanta attending a YMCA daycamp, which she says she didn't like. She has a tough time with her two stepsisters up there, too. She came back to her mom's the same day we arrived. And my sister is pregnant, due some time in the next two weeks.
That's backstory; there's a lot going on for my niece. Oh, and she's a schooled kid--Montessori from pre-k until now.
She and my oldest boy have always argued some, but this visit, her behavior during and after conflicts (over stuff like who gets to play with which toy, whether the pretend scenario will involve pets or soldiers, etc.) is really ugly.
My niece is really quick to assume that she is being slighted, that everyone is angry with her, that we all like whomever she is in conflict with better than her. My family calls this "being dramatic," but I've never met another child like this, and I don't know that that's the best way to put it. She sometimes seems to invent slights from thin air--"You think I'm stupid!" "You took that because you want all the nice things for yourself and for me to have nothing!" "You just did that so you'd win every time!"--and spins a truly awful version of what happened full of false facts and accusations. As she's telling these stories, she parrots my older boy's voice unkindly, making an exaggerated, contorted face. She doesn't do this with my 3 year old, but when she gets mad at him, she yells at him. My boys often are staring in disbelief as this unfolds, but my older boy is increasingly losing patience with her, and yells from the other room that she's not telling the truth about what happened.
Is this making sense? It feels generalized, but the straight facts look kind of weird: There was a conflict over play, she had a meltdown, verbal ugliness ensued.
They play together well 90% of the time, but that 10% is brutal. My older son came to me last night and told me he two things: he didn't like how she "lied" about what happened after a conflict, and he didn't like how she played "mean" sometimes (which I couldn't really pin down).
I don't know what to do about this. We're going to be here a while longer. They spend a good amount of time together every day or every couple of days. Almost every playtime together includes at least one of these blow-ups. It doesn't seem to make a difference if I'm playing with them or not--there are just as many conflicts, and the blow-ups are just as loud and angry. My sister--her mother--uses threats at this time. But mostly I've been trying to take my niece out and about with us by myself to allow my sister some rest.
My boys love to play with her, until they don't. I've been trying a week already to come up with some way to work with this, but I'm coming up with nothing.
Thoughts much appreciated. Thank you.
Teresa
mama to Woody, 6 1/2, and Fox, 3 1/2
My niece spent the summer away from her mom for the first time, with her dad in Atlanta attending a YMCA daycamp, which she says she didn't like. She has a tough time with her two stepsisters up there, too. She came back to her mom's the same day we arrived. And my sister is pregnant, due some time in the next two weeks.
That's backstory; there's a lot going on for my niece. Oh, and she's a schooled kid--Montessori from pre-k until now.
She and my oldest boy have always argued some, but this visit, her behavior during and after conflicts (over stuff like who gets to play with which toy, whether the pretend scenario will involve pets or soldiers, etc.) is really ugly.
My niece is really quick to assume that she is being slighted, that everyone is angry with her, that we all like whomever she is in conflict with better than her. My family calls this "being dramatic," but I've never met another child like this, and I don't know that that's the best way to put it. She sometimes seems to invent slights from thin air--"You think I'm stupid!" "You took that because you want all the nice things for yourself and for me to have nothing!" "You just did that so you'd win every time!"--and spins a truly awful version of what happened full of false facts and accusations. As she's telling these stories, she parrots my older boy's voice unkindly, making an exaggerated, contorted face. She doesn't do this with my 3 year old, but when she gets mad at him, she yells at him. My boys often are staring in disbelief as this unfolds, but my older boy is increasingly losing patience with her, and yells from the other room that she's not telling the truth about what happened.
Is this making sense? It feels generalized, but the straight facts look kind of weird: There was a conflict over play, she had a meltdown, verbal ugliness ensued.
They play together well 90% of the time, but that 10% is brutal. My older son came to me last night and told me he two things: he didn't like how she "lied" about what happened after a conflict, and he didn't like how she played "mean" sometimes (which I couldn't really pin down).
I don't know what to do about this. We're going to be here a while longer. They spend a good amount of time together every day or every couple of days. Almost every playtime together includes at least one of these blow-ups. It doesn't seem to make a difference if I'm playing with them or not--there are just as many conflicts, and the blow-ups are just as loud and angry. My sister--her mother--uses threats at this time. But mostly I've been trying to take my niece out and about with us by myself to allow my sister some rest.
My boys love to play with her, until they don't. I've been trying a week already to come up with some way to work with this, but I'm coming up with nothing.
Thoughts much appreciated. Thank you.
Teresa
mama to Woody, 6 1/2, and Fox, 3 1/2
Sandra Dodd
-=-They play together well 90% of the time, but that 10% is brutal. My older son came to me last night and told me he two things: he didn't like how she "lied" about what happened after a conflict, and he didn't like how she played "mean" sometimes (which I couldn't really pin down). -=-
So he's learning. He's having an experience that will probably make him a better person and help him decide whether he wants to visit again. But they will both get older, and it might get better for her.
-=-We're going to be here a while longer.-=-
You could leave.
-=-They spend a good amount of time together every day or every couple of days. Almost every playtime together includes at least one of these blow-ups. It doesn't seem to make a difference if I'm playing with them or not--there are just as many conflicts-=-
That doesn't sound right. Can't you negotiate nicer behavior? Can't you just invite your own child to leave the room with you?
-=-But mostly I've been trying to take my niece out and about with us by myself to allow my sister some rest.
-=-
I would tell the girl you will take her out IF she will be nicer. You're not unschooler her. You don't need to treat her the same way you treat your boys. You could treat her like a dangerous element, and tell her sharply to be quiet if she gets loud and angry. You can't change her completely in three weeks, but you might persuade her to be nicer for two more weeks.
-=-My boys love to play with her, until they don't. I've been trying a week already to come up with some way to work with this, but I'm coming up with nothing. -=-
Can your mom go with you when you go out, to help with the cousin?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So he's learning. He's having an experience that will probably make him a better person and help him decide whether he wants to visit again. But they will both get older, and it might get better for her.
-=-We're going to be here a while longer.-=-
You could leave.
-=-They spend a good amount of time together every day or every couple of days. Almost every playtime together includes at least one of these blow-ups. It doesn't seem to make a difference if I'm playing with them or not--there are just as many conflicts-=-
That doesn't sound right. Can't you negotiate nicer behavior? Can't you just invite your own child to leave the room with you?
-=-But mostly I've been trying to take my niece out and about with us by myself to allow my sister some rest.
-=-
I would tell the girl you will take her out IF she will be nicer. You're not unschooler her. You don't need to treat her the same way you treat your boys. You could treat her like a dangerous element, and tell her sharply to be quiet if she gets loud and angry. You can't change her completely in three weeks, but you might persuade her to be nicer for two more weeks.
-=-My boys love to play with her, until they don't. I've been trying a week already to come up with some way to work with this, but I'm coming up with nothing. -=-
Can your mom go with you when you go out, to help with the cousin?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Andrea Q
-=- That's backstory; there's a lot going on for my niece. -=-
Not unschooling, but:
It sounds like she needs as much of her mom's time, love and reassurance as possible over the next couple of weeks. She's been away all summer, her world will be changing soon with the baby coming and now it sounds like she's being sent to play with cousins, rather than reconnecting with her mother. Can you help your sister arrange some things to do with her to give them quiet together? You could rent them a movie, make them some snacks (or prepare a couple of meals), get out some art stuff, basically make it so mom doesn't have to do a lot when she's already tired, but make it easy for them to spend time together.
Maybe if your niece gets some attention from her mom at home, she'll have more patience for playing with your son.
Andrea Q
Not unschooling, but:
It sounds like she needs as much of her mom's time, love and reassurance as possible over the next couple of weeks. She's been away all summer, her world will be changing soon with the baby coming and now it sounds like she's being sent to play with cousins, rather than reconnecting with her mother. Can you help your sister arrange some things to do with her to give them quiet together? You could rent them a movie, make them some snacks (or prepare a couple of meals), get out some art stuff, basically make it so mom doesn't have to do a lot when she's already tired, but make it easy for them to spend time together.
Maybe if your niece gets some attention from her mom at home, she'll have more patience for playing with your son.
Andrea Q
maryann
We've had some similar issues with cousins and with friends' kids. My 6 year old gets his feelings hurt really easily because he really wants to play and is so excited and then is crushed and confused when another kid says or does something mean.
What I've done is empathize with him about his feelings, and then try to explain a bit about why the OTHER child might be having such a hard time being nice. It helps for him to think about WHY another person would react that way toward him.
I would try to help your son empathize with his cousin, whether you stay there longer or not. She's having a really hard time right now, and has a lot of stressful things in her life. I would point out some of them and help him think about how she must feel.
And if you do stay, maybe think of outings where they aren't focused on eachother as much, like movies or amusement park, zoo, etc. Maybe take them to build-a-bear and they could make a bear for the baby and your son could make one for his cousin with a sweet message inside. Depending on your son, maybe have him join you in doting on the little girl and treating her carefully. Maybe work together on a big sister party where she is the queen and gets gifts and attention and wins all the games.....And give your kids extra treats when she's not there to help balance it out.
maryann
son 6, daughter 2
What I've done is empathize with him about his feelings, and then try to explain a bit about why the OTHER child might be having such a hard time being nice. It helps for him to think about WHY another person would react that way toward him.
I would try to help your son empathize with his cousin, whether you stay there longer or not. She's having a really hard time right now, and has a lot of stressful things in her life. I would point out some of them and help him think about how she must feel.
And if you do stay, maybe think of outings where they aren't focused on eachother as much, like movies or amusement park, zoo, etc. Maybe take them to build-a-bear and they could make a bear for the baby and your son could make one for his cousin with a sweet message inside. Depending on your son, maybe have him join you in doting on the little girl and treating her carefully. Maybe work together on a big sister party where she is the queen and gets gifts and attention and wins all the games.....And give your kids extra treats when she's not there to help balance it out.
maryann
son 6, daughter 2
Pam Sorooshian
> Maybe if your niece gets some attention from her mom at home, she'll haveMaybe she just enjoys them to a point - and then gets tired of them but
> more patience for playing with your son.>>
>
doesn't know how to end their playtime comfortably.
The mom could help with that - give her a natural chance to take a break
from them every so often. If she turns down the chance, then she's okay. If
she takes advantage of it, then you know she was wanting to get away and
maybe didn't have the social skills to do it without a blow-up.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bxmanley
Hi Teresa,
It is hard to deal with children who are extremely sensitive, whether they are your own or someone elses.
I have four children, one is a sensitive child. She has been so difficult to parent. Something that might help you to change your perspective is to realize that when children act like this they do so out of fear and/or anger. It is sometimes possible to find out what the fear is, and then take action to address it, but more often than not i have no idea what is going on!
To give you an example, my 3 yr old son is very active, physical and aggressive; much more than my other son, and most children. On top of this, he is two years bigger than most three year olds. When we moved recently, a sensitive child (who is 7) had major reactions to him. She acted similarly to what you describe your niece acting. Luckily this girls parents are pretty observant and respectful of their daughter and my son, and they managed to figure out that she felt threatened by him (and rightly so, he can be pretty daunting!). What we, as parents, came up with as a solution was that we would give the girl time and physical space so that she could feel in control still - my son always wanted to play with their family, so we were there a lot. This meant me putting guidelines in place, and them saying no more.
This alone was enough for her to feel validated in her feelings, to feel like she had an out when she felt threatened, and for her to gain control over her reactions.
I don't know if this is helpful, and I also think that your situation will be unique, with it's own unique solutions.
Another helpful tool for me has been the Steiner descriptions of temperaments and useful ways to deal with them as parents and teachers.
http://www.openwaldorf.com/temperaments.html
Good Luck! approach with empathy and respect for all those involved, as a team of parents...
It is hard to deal with children who are extremely sensitive, whether they are your own or someone elses.
I have four children, one is a sensitive child. She has been so difficult to parent. Something that might help you to change your perspective is to realize that when children act like this they do so out of fear and/or anger. It is sometimes possible to find out what the fear is, and then take action to address it, but more often than not i have no idea what is going on!
To give you an example, my 3 yr old son is very active, physical and aggressive; much more than my other son, and most children. On top of this, he is two years bigger than most three year olds. When we moved recently, a sensitive child (who is 7) had major reactions to him. She acted similarly to what you describe your niece acting. Luckily this girls parents are pretty observant and respectful of their daughter and my son, and they managed to figure out that she felt threatened by him (and rightly so, he can be pretty daunting!). What we, as parents, came up with as a solution was that we would give the girl time and physical space so that she could feel in control still - my son always wanted to play with their family, so we were there a lot. This meant me putting guidelines in place, and them saying no more.
This alone was enough for her to feel validated in her feelings, to feel like she had an out when she felt threatened, and for her to gain control over her reactions.
I don't know if this is helpful, and I also think that your situation will be unique, with it's own unique solutions.
Another helpful tool for me has been the Steiner descriptions of temperaments and useful ways to deal with them as parents and teachers.
http://www.openwaldorf.com/temperaments.html
Good Luck! approach with empathy and respect for all those involved, as a team of parents...
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't know if this is helpful, and I also think that your situation will be unique, with it's own unique solutions.
Another helpful tool for me has been the Steiner descriptions of temperaments and useful ways to deal with them as parents and teachers.
http://www.openwaldorf.com/temperaments.html-=-
On this list, for this discussion, it's important for suggestions to be from an unschooling standpoint.
We shouldn't be dealing with anyone as teachers, and Waldorf methods and beliefs are questionable.
It doesn't bother me that people believe or care about those ideas, but they're not good for this discussion.
I let the post through because this could be useful: "Something that might help you to change your perspective is to realize that when children act like this they do so out of fear and/or anger. It is sometimes possible to find out what the fear is, and then take action to address it"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Another helpful tool for me has been the Steiner descriptions of temperaments and useful ways to deal with them as parents and teachers.
http://www.openwaldorf.com/temperaments.html-=-
On this list, for this discussion, it's important for suggestions to be from an unschooling standpoint.
We shouldn't be dealing with anyone as teachers, and Waldorf methods and beliefs are questionable.
It doesn't bother me that people believe or care about those ideas, but they're not good for this discussion.
I let the post through because this could be useful: "Something that might help you to change your perspective is to realize that when children act like this they do so out of fear and/or anger. It is sometimes possible to find out what the fear is, and then take action to address it"
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
vafnord23
It seems likely that this way of interacting has been modeled for your niece; from the context, I'm guessing her stepsisters and/or stepmother. I think calling it "being dramatic" is probably both fairly accurate and extremely unhelpful. Accurate because she may have just returned from an environment where extreme behavior was the only (perceived) way to get one's needs met. Unhelpful, because labeling behavior as "merely" dramatic is usually the first step towards dismissing whatever is behind it as unimportant.
In short, the child is in pain, and these are the lengths to which she feels she has to go to get her needs met. One thing I think it's hard for free children to appreciate is how much pressure most other children are under. If you've never been forced to go to a camp or school or home where you didn't want to be, it's hard to understand how, uh, we'll, how f-ed up it is.
Just some examples of some responses that could bring you all closer: when your niece embellishes her story for dramatic effect, and you discuss it with your son you might point out that it's a bummer that she thinks she has to do that to get sympathy, how can we help her feel our love so she doesn't need to do that? Point out that if she "plays mean" it almost certainly indicates that someone else was very mean indeed to her in the past, and she doesn't know how to do to process those feelings without "spreading them around". Excrement tumbles in a generally downward direction, if you catch my drift.
In short, the child is in pain, and these are the lengths to which she feels she has to go to get her needs met. One thing I think it's hard for free children to appreciate is how much pressure most other children are under. If you've never been forced to go to a camp or school or home where you didn't want to be, it's hard to understand how, uh, we'll, how f-ed up it is.
Just some examples of some responses that could bring you all closer: when your niece embellishes her story for dramatic effect, and you discuss it with your son you might point out that it's a bummer that she thinks she has to do that to get sympathy, how can we help her feel our love so she doesn't need to do that? Point out that if she "plays mean" it almost certainly indicates that someone else was very mean indeed to her in the past, and she doesn't know how to do to process those feelings without "spreading them around". Excrement tumbles in a generally downward direction, if you catch my drift.
--- In [email protected], "teresa" <treesock@...> wrote:
>
> We're staying for three weeks with my mom in Central Florida where my sister also lives with her 7-year-old daughter. I'm writing to ask for some insight into how to handle some pretty intense and--to me--disturbing conflicts between my niece and my oldest boy, 6.
>
> My niece spent the summer away from her mom for the first time, with her dad in Atlanta attending a YMCA daycamp, which she says she didn't like. She has a tough time with her two stepsisters up there, too. She came back to her mom's the same day we arrived. And my sister is pregnant, due some time in the next two weeks.
>
> That's backstory; there's a lot going on for my niece. Oh, and she's a schooled kid--Montessori from pre-k until now.
>
> She and my oldest boy have always argued some, but this visit, her behavior during and after conflicts (over stuff like who gets to play with which toy, whether the pretend scenario will involve pets or soldiers, etc.) is really ugly.
>
> My niece is really quick to assume that she is being slighted, that everyone is angry with her, that we all like whomever she is in conflict with better than her. My family calls this "being dramatic," but I've never met another child like this, and I don't know that that's the best way to put it. She sometimes seems to invent slights from thin air--"You think I'm stupid!" "You took that because you want all the nice things for yourself and for me to have nothing!" "You just did that so you'd win every time!"--and spins a truly awful version of what happened full of false facts and accusations. As she's telling these stories, she parrots my older boy's voice unkindly, making an exaggerated, contorted face. She doesn't do this with my 3 year old, but when she gets mad at him, she yells at him. My boys often are staring in disbelief as this unfolds, but my older boy is increasingly losing patience with her, and yells from the other room that she's not telling the truth about what happened.
>
> Is this making sense? It feels generalized, but the straight facts look kind of weird: There was a conflict over play, she had a meltdown, verbal ugliness ensued.
>
> They play together well 90% of the time, but that 10% is brutal. My older son came to me last night and told me he two things: he didn't like how she "lied" about what happened after a conflict, and he didn't like how she played "mean" sometimes (which I couldn't really pin down).
>
> I don't know what to do about this. We're going to be here a while longer. They spend a good amount of time together every day or every couple of days. Almost every playtime together includes at least one of these blow-ups. It doesn't seem to make a difference if I'm playing with them or not--there are just as many conflicts, and the blow-ups are just as loud and angry. My sister--her mother--uses threats at this time. But mostly I've been trying to take my niece out and about with us by myself to allow my sister some rest.
>
> My boys love to play with her, until they don't. I've been trying a week already to come up with some way to work with this, but I'm coming up with nothing.
>
> Thoughts much appreciated. Thank you.
>
> Teresa
> mama to Woody, 6 1/2, and Fox, 3 1/2
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-In short, the child is in pain, and these are the lengths to which she feels she has to go to get her needs met. One thing I think it's hard for free children to appreciate is -=-
Please qualify your statement.
The child might be in pain.
Perhaps she is acting in order to get needs met. Maybe not.
"Free children" isn't the best term to use in these discussions. It's pretty good in the title of Rue Kream's book, but let's talk about unschooling in normal English, please.
-=-One thing I think it's hard for free children to appreciate is how much pressure most other children are under. ...-=-
It's wonderful when a family can relax pressures and be accepting, and to give other kids options when they visit, and to be calm and considerate. Calling some children "free" means others are... enslaved? Trapped? Opressed?
-=-Unhelpful, because labeling behavior as "merely" dramatic is usually the first step towards dismissing whatever is behind it as unimportant.
-=-
"Merely" and "just" are dismissive terms, for sure.
Helping our children deal with situations they encounter is good. Helping them find ways to make situations better is great.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Please qualify your statement.
The child might be in pain.
Perhaps she is acting in order to get needs met. Maybe not.
"Free children" isn't the best term to use in these discussions. It's pretty good in the title of Rue Kream's book, but let's talk about unschooling in normal English, please.
-=-One thing I think it's hard for free children to appreciate is how much pressure most other children are under. ...-=-
It's wonderful when a family can relax pressures and be accepting, and to give other kids options when they visit, and to be calm and considerate. Calling some children "free" means others are... enslaved? Trapped? Opressed?
-=-Unhelpful, because labeling behavior as "merely" dramatic is usually the first step towards dismissing whatever is behind it as unimportant.
-=-
"Merely" and "just" are dismissive terms, for sure.
Helping our children deal with situations they encounter is good. Helping them find ways to make situations better is great.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Virginia Warren
I don't know what book you're referring to, but "free" seems like much
plainer language than "unschooling" to me. I can't figure out what you're
objecting to. I can't figure out what it means to act for a purpose other
than fulfilling needs.
plainer language than "unschooling" to me. I can't figure out what you're
objecting to. I can't figure out what it means to act for a purpose other
than fulfilling needs.
On Sep 10, 2012 9:31 PM, "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> -=-In short, the child is in pain, and these are the lengths to which she
feels she has to go to get her needs met. One thing I think it's hard for
free children to appreciate is -=-
>
> Please qualify your statement.
>
> The child might be in pain.
> Perhaps she is acting in order to get needs met. Maybe not.
>
> "Free children" isn't the best term to use in these discussions. It's
pretty good in the title of Rue Kream's book, but let's talk about
unschooling in normal English, please.
>
> -=-One thing I think it's hard for free children to appreciate is how
much pressure most other children are under. ...-=-
>
> It's wonderful when a family can relax pressures and be accepting, and to
give other kids options when they visit, and to be calm and considerate.
Calling some children "free" means others are... enslaved? Trapped?
Opressed?
>
> -=-Unhelpful, because labeling behavior as "merely" dramatic is usually
the first step towards dismissing whatever is behind it as unimportant.
> -=-
>
> "Merely" and "just" are dismissive terms, for sure.
>
> Helping our children deal with situations they encounter is good. Helping
them find ways to make situations better is great.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't know what book you're referring to, but "free" seems like much
plainer language than "unschooling" to me.-=-
It's an unschooling discussion.
We can talk about freedom if you want to, but everything we talk about needs to help people understand unschooling better.
-=- I can't figure out what it means to act for a purpose other than fulfilling needs.-=-
My objection was to your absolute statement about the cousin of a child of a mom interested in unschooling.
You don't absolutely *know* that child's pain or needs or feelings. It's better for people to qualify their statements.
Read a week or so before posting. You joined the discussion today.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plainer language than "unschooling" to me.-=-
It's an unschooling discussion.
We can talk about freedom if you want to, but everything we talk about needs to help people understand unschooling better.
-=- I can't figure out what it means to act for a purpose other than fulfilling needs.-=-
My objection was to your absolute statement about the cousin of a child of a mom interested in unschooling.
You don't absolutely *know* that child's pain or needs or feelings. It's better for people to qualify their statements.
Read a week or so before posting. You joined the discussion today.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]