Older teens paying board?
freerangemum
To people who have or are parenting teens, what are your thoughts about charging "board" once they're working full time? The situation in our family that I am thinking of when I write this is: an 18yo son and 15yo son, both of whom are working now. My husband wants to start charging the 18yo $50 a week as his way of "contributing" because he breezes in and out, eats food etc but doesn't participate much in family life (he's nearly 19) or help with household tasks.
What have others done when their children start working full time? In Australia we lose government payments once they are a certain age, so we are no longer receiving assistance for the 18yo, and will soon lose assistance payments for the 15yo. But my husband only wants to charge the 18yo board (because he is older, and because his attitude to home and family is different).
Karen
What have others done when their children start working full time? In Australia we lose government payments once they are a certain age, so we are no longer receiving assistance for the 18yo, and will soon lose assistance payments for the 15yo. But my husband only wants to charge the 18yo board (because he is older, and because his attitude to home and family is different).
Karen
Sandra Dodd
-=-To people who have or are parenting teens-=-�
We have parented three.
The question should be, thoug, for people who have unschooled teens.
How long have you been unschooling?
I'm asking mostly because of this phrase:
"he breezes in and out"
When people use an idiom that way, one that's a put-down, they're not being compassionate to the person they're describing. It doesn't sound like his partner speaking; it sounds critical and antagonistic.
Is he doing cool things when he's out? Is he learning? And he has a job; that's cool.
If he were in school, wouldn't he be busy elsewhere most of the time, not participating a lot in "family life" (his life IS part of your family)?
-=-In Australia we lose government payments once they are a certain age, so we are no longer receiving assistance for the 18yo, and will soon lose assistance payments for the 15yo.-=-
Are they foster children?
If they're your biological children, why are you getting "government payments"?
I think supporting one's own children, even when they're 18, or 20, is a kindness and a goodness. Unless they're the enemy or you want to run them off, I woudln't charge them rent or any such thing. Someday you might need their help, and if you were not generous when they were younger, they're unlikely to be generous with you.
-=-But my husband only wants to charge the 18yo board (because he is older, and because his attitude to home and family is different).-=
That sounds like punishment, and not like loving support.
My children have had part-time and fulltime jobs, variously, at different ages, but all worked early--14, 15, 16, respectively, and each has at one time or another had a full-time job before the age of 18, and we've never charged any of them to live here. We're letting them take their time to move out, because 18 and 21 are arbitrary legalities, and there's nothing biological about either age.
Too many kids are booted out into the world early. There aren't enough jobs and houses for everyone, and there's no advantage to parents to having an emptier house.
Having a working child home is WAY less expensive than having one living in a dorm at a university. I can't see why charging an 18 year old to live in his own home is helpful to anyone at all. It's more likely to drive a wedge of resentment both ways than it is to promote love and learning.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We have parented three.
The question should be, thoug, for people who have unschooled teens.
How long have you been unschooling?
I'm asking mostly because of this phrase:
"he breezes in and out"
When people use an idiom that way, one that's a put-down, they're not being compassionate to the person they're describing. It doesn't sound like his partner speaking; it sounds critical and antagonistic.
Is he doing cool things when he's out? Is he learning? And he has a job; that's cool.
If he were in school, wouldn't he be busy elsewhere most of the time, not participating a lot in "family life" (his life IS part of your family)?
-=-In Australia we lose government payments once they are a certain age, so we are no longer receiving assistance for the 18yo, and will soon lose assistance payments for the 15yo.-=-
Are they foster children?
If they're your biological children, why are you getting "government payments"?
I think supporting one's own children, even when they're 18, or 20, is a kindness and a goodness. Unless they're the enemy or you want to run them off, I woudln't charge them rent or any such thing. Someday you might need their help, and if you were not generous when they were younger, they're unlikely to be generous with you.
-=-But my husband only wants to charge the 18yo board (because he is older, and because his attitude to home and family is different).-=
That sounds like punishment, and not like loving support.
My children have had part-time and fulltime jobs, variously, at different ages, but all worked early--14, 15, 16, respectively, and each has at one time or another had a full-time job before the age of 18, and we've never charged any of them to live here. We're letting them take their time to move out, because 18 and 21 are arbitrary legalities, and there's nothing biological about either age.
Too many kids are booted out into the world early. There aren't enough jobs and houses for everyone, and there's no advantage to parents to having an emptier house.
Having a working child home is WAY less expensive than having one living in a dorm at a university. I can't see why charging an 18 year old to live in his own home is helpful to anyone at all. It's more likely to drive a wedge of resentment both ways than it is to promote love and learning.
Sandra
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Growing up in Brazil it was always interesting to us how parents in the US ( and now I am learning in Australia) would be so eager for their kids to move out or make them pay to stay home after they turned a certain age, usually 18.
I am glad my parents thought it was not loving. When I was in my early 20's I lived at home or at my grandmother's ( because she was close to my Law School). When I had money I wwwent grocery shopping, I helped clean but many times I was pretty much gone all weekend and only came home to sleep during the week when I did !
My was born and raised in the house we live now. He worked in his father's farm until he and his brother bought the farm from his dad. Brian did not move out ( to the house on the other side of the road that his parents bought from the old couple when they moved)until he was 28 years old)
He went to live there for about 8 years until his mom sold that house and she herself move out of the house we live in now, the family house.
Do you need for him to help out with money or do you think that he needs to learn to be responsible and pay his way?
Does he want to move out? Is he home because he likes to be home even if he is seldom home? ( that was me in my 20's- loved my home based but was always gone)
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: freerangemum <freerangemum@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 8:52 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Older teens paying board?
To people who have or are parenting teens, what are your thoughts about charging "board" once they're working full time? The situation in our family that I am thinking of when I write this is: an 18yo son and 15yo son, both of whom are working now. My husband wants to start charging the 18yo $50 a week as his way of "contributing" because he breezes in and out, eats food etc but doesn't participate much in family life (he's nearly 19) or help with household tasks.
What have others done when their children start working full time? In Australia we lose government payments once they are a certain age, so we are no longer receiving assistance for the 18yo, and will soon lose assistance payments for the 15yo. But my husband only wants to charge the 18yo board (because he is older, and because his attitude to home and family is different).
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I am glad my parents thought it was not loving. When I was in my early 20's I lived at home or at my grandmother's ( because she was close to my Law School). When I had money I wwwent grocery shopping, I helped clean but many times I was pretty much gone all weekend and only came home to sleep during the week when I did !
My was born and raised in the house we live now. He worked in his father's farm until he and his brother bought the farm from his dad. Brian did not move out ( to the house on the other side of the road that his parents bought from the old couple when they moved)until he was 28 years old)
He went to live there for about 8 years until his mom sold that house and she herself move out of the house we live in now, the family house.
Do you need for him to help out with money or do you think that he needs to learn to be responsible and pay his way?
Does he want to move out? Is he home because he likes to be home even if he is seldom home? ( that was me in my 20's- loved my home based but was always gone)
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: freerangemum <freerangemum@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Saturday, August 11, 2012 8:52 PM
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Older teens paying board?
To people who have or are parenting teens, what are your thoughts about charging "board" once they're working full time? The situation in our family that I am thinking of when I write this is: an 18yo son and 15yo son, both of whom are working now. My husband wants to start charging the 18yo $50 a week as his way of "contributing" because he breezes in and out, eats food etc but doesn't participate much in family life (he's nearly 19) or help with household tasks.
What have others done when their children start working full time? In Australia we lose government payments once they are a certain age, so we are no longer receiving assistance for the 18yo, and will soon lose assistance payments for the 15yo. But my husband only wants to charge the 18yo board (because he is older, and because his attitude to home and family is different).
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-My husband wants to start charging the 18yo $50 a week as his way of "contributing" because he breezes in and out, eats food etc but doesn't participate much in family life (he's nearly 19) or help with household tasks.-=-
It's not "contributing" if it's required.
What if you had an 18 year old who was unable to have a job, mentally, or physically? Wouldn't you still feed him?
Should a child be fined for being healthy and capable?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's not "contributing" if it's required.
What if you had an 18 year old who was unable to have a job, mentally, or physically? Wouldn't you still feed him?
Should a child be fined for being healthy and capable?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
It should read :
My husband was born in the house.....
Alex Polikowsky
My was born and raised in the house we live now. He worked in his father's farm until he and his brother bought the farm from his dad. Brian did not move out ( to the house on the other side of the road that his parents bought from the old couple when they moved)until he was 28 years old)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My husband was born in the house.....
Alex Polikowsky
My was born and raised in the house we live now. He worked in his father's farm until he and his brother bought the farm from his dad. Brian did not move out ( to the house on the other side of the road that his parents bought from the old couple when they moved)until he was 28 years old)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
I think it is hard when one parent is feeling antagonistic towards a child's continued use of resources. It might help to talk about what your husband would feel comfortable paying for in his son's life and what he feels more resentful about. Maybe if he examines what he would be willing to do he can judge how arbitrary he is being in asking his son to pay for this aspect of his life and not another.
If they have a tense relationship it may help for you to talk up what your son is doing in his life that his father isn't aware of, information that he may not be privy too. It may also help if you make sure that you are appreciative for what your husband adds to your life and that if you can any resentment he may be feeling about his son's living at home can be ameliorated through your actions and gratitude.
Has this been building in a noticeable way or is it something coming from somewhere else in your husband's life?
Schuyler
________________________________
From: freerangemum <freerangemum@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 12 August 2012, 11:52
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Older teens paying board?
To people who have or are parenting teens, what are your thoughts about charging "board" once they're working full time? The situation in our family that I am thinking of when I write this is: an 18yo son and 15yo son, both of whom are working now. My husband wants to start charging the 18yo $50 a week as his way of "contributing" because he breezes in and out, eats food etc but doesn't participate much in family life (he's nearly 19) or help with household tasks.
What have others done when their children start working full time? In Australia we lose government payments once they are a certain age, so we are no longer receiving assistance for the 18yo, and will soon lose assistance payments for the 15yo. But my husband only wants to charge the 18yo board (because he is older, and because his attitude to home and family is different).
Karen
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If they have a tense relationship it may help for you to talk up what your son is doing in his life that his father isn't aware of, information that he may not be privy too. It may also help if you make sure that you are appreciative for what your husband adds to your life and that if you can any resentment he may be feeling about his son's living at home can be ameliorated through your actions and gratitude.
Has this been building in a noticeable way or is it something coming from somewhere else in your husband's life?
Schuyler
________________________________
From: freerangemum <freerangemum@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 12 August 2012, 11:52
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Older teens paying board?
To people who have or are parenting teens, what are your thoughts about charging "board" once they're working full time? The situation in our family that I am thinking of when I write this is: an 18yo son and 15yo son, both of whom are working now. My husband wants to start charging the 18yo $50 a week as his way of "contributing" because he breezes in and out, eats food etc but doesn't participate much in family life (he's nearly 19) or help with household tasks.
What have others done when their children start working full time? In Australia we lose government payments once they are a certain age, so we are no longer receiving assistance for the 18yo, and will soon lose assistance payments for the 15yo. But my husband only wants to charge the 18yo board (because he is older, and because his attitude to home and family is different).
Karen
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cara Barlow
When I was a teen my mother was married to stepfather #2 who didn't like
me, and I didn't like him. When I was 15yo he started requiring me to pay
board - I think it was $20/week - and I was allowed to sleep at the house
but I wasn't allowed to eat any of the food. I worked as a cashier at a
grocery store, so I bought and ate food there.
The atmosphere at home was poisonous - I spent as little time there as
possible. As soon as I was able to get my drivers license and a car,
shortly after I turned 16, I left. I never lived with them again and cut
off communication with my mother for many years.
I have a 16yo daughter, and it amazes me to think I was out in the world
with no parental guidance or support when I was her age. I'd feel the same
way if she was 18yo. She knows that she's always welcomed and wanted in our
home. This is her home too, and we're her family. We're her safe place.
Talk to your husband about what he wants his relationship to be with his
son. If his goal is to make his son feel unwelcome and to get him out of
the house (and maybe out of your lives), if his goal is to punish his son,
he's probably on the right path. But you're asking a radical unschooling
list for advice. You must know that what he's proposing is going to have
negative repercussions for your family.
Talk with your husband and find out what his goal is for his relationship
with his son. Help him figure out kind, loving ways to get there. Take the
big picture into consideration. The way you and your husband treat your son
now will have repercussions 10, 20 and 30 or more years down the road. Is
that $50 a week worth it?
Best wishes, Cara
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
me, and I didn't like him. When I was 15yo he started requiring me to pay
board - I think it was $20/week - and I was allowed to sleep at the house
but I wasn't allowed to eat any of the food. I worked as a cashier at a
grocery store, so I bought and ate food there.
The atmosphere at home was poisonous - I spent as little time there as
possible. As soon as I was able to get my drivers license and a car,
shortly after I turned 16, I left. I never lived with them again and cut
off communication with my mother for many years.
I have a 16yo daughter, and it amazes me to think I was out in the world
with no parental guidance or support when I was her age. I'd feel the same
way if she was 18yo. She knows that she's always welcomed and wanted in our
home. This is her home too, and we're her family. We're her safe place.
Talk to your husband about what he wants his relationship to be with his
son. If his goal is to make his son feel unwelcome and to get him out of
the house (and maybe out of your lives), if his goal is to punish his son,
he's probably on the right path. But you're asking a radical unschooling
list for advice. You must know that what he's proposing is going to have
negative repercussions for your family.
Talk with your husband and find out what his goal is for his relationship
with his son. Help him figure out kind, loving ways to get there. Take the
big picture into consideration. The way you and your husband treat your son
now will have repercussions 10, 20 and 30 or more years down the road. Is
that $50 a week worth it?
Best wishes, Cara
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
== To people who have or are parenting teens, what are your thoughts about charging "board" once they're working full time?==
We have a 21 year old who lives at home and works. He attended public school until halfway through 7th grade, so from 5-12 years old. I started homeschooling him then but didn't start unschooling until about 6 months after that, which was really us deschooling for quite a while.
He does not pay any rent or board. He buys some food and shares when he does but it's not much. He doesn't make very much money. He has been looking for his own place to rent with some friends but moving in is expensive and he's worried about whether or not he'll be able to cover all the expenses. I asked my husband how he felt about offering to help our son cover those bills and expenses, not because we want him to move out but because he wants to move out. I see it as us continuing to support him in his next endeavor. We agreed that we could do that for him.
Alysia
We have a 21 year old who lives at home and works. He attended public school until halfway through 7th grade, so from 5-12 years old. I started homeschooling him then but didn't start unschooling until about 6 months after that, which was really us deschooling for quite a while.
He does not pay any rent or board. He buys some food and shares when he does but it's not much. He doesn't make very much money. He has been looking for his own place to rent with some friends but moving in is expensive and he's worried about whether or not he'll be able to cover all the expenses. I asked my husband how he felt about offering to help our son cover those bills and expenses, not because we want him to move out but because he wants to move out. I see it as us continuing to support him in his next endeavor. We agreed that we could do that for him.
Alysia
freerangemum
Thank you all so much for everything you've written! You have voiced so eloquently most of what was in my head. You articulated what was up until a few hours ago mostly just random swirling thoughts in my head. The tone and consistency of all the replies is in keeping with the way I have been viewing this situation and I was fortunately able to have some hard discussions with my husband this afternoon. I basically shared with him (again) my thoughts that were much along the lines of what you all have written. I knew that he had some deeper issues going on, and that his idea of our son "paying board" was a surface solution and not really going to address what really mattered.
My husband was eventually able to see that what he was really feeling was a sense of being busy and overwhelmed, and he was feeling frustrated when our son would do things like borrow the car without asking, or take food without checking if it was set aside for other people, or leave his wet washing in a basket for four days and then complain that a shirt went mouldy.... These were my husband's complaints, as were my words in my original post (about him "breezing in and out" etc). My husband is still moving towards a place of fully embracing radical unschooling; hence his difficulty with these issues.
It was good today to be able to clarify the underlying issues, and I was able to talk to him about my desire for our home to be a warm and welcome place for all of our children, regardless of their age or work status.
Interestingly, when my son mentioned the "board" idea (which my husband had already talked to him about, unbeknownst to me), he referred to it as "paying to be part of the family". I am so glad that my husband was able to see that it wasn't really board that he was wanting, but more communication (about things like car borrowing etc) and more contribution and connection.
Thank you all for your time in replying. It was good to find validation here for the way I was seeing things!
My husband was eventually able to see that what he was really feeling was a sense of being busy and overwhelmed, and he was feeling frustrated when our son would do things like borrow the car without asking, or take food without checking if it was set aside for other people, or leave his wet washing in a basket for four days and then complain that a shirt went mouldy.... These were my husband's complaints, as were my words in my original post (about him "breezing in and out" etc). My husband is still moving towards a place of fully embracing radical unschooling; hence his difficulty with these issues.
It was good today to be able to clarify the underlying issues, and I was able to talk to him about my desire for our home to be a warm and welcome place for all of our children, regardless of their age or work status.
Interestingly, when my son mentioned the "board" idea (which my husband had already talked to him about, unbeknownst to me), he referred to it as "paying to be part of the family". I am so glad that my husband was able to see that it wasn't really board that he was wanting, but more communication (about things like car borrowing etc) and more contribution and connection.
Thank you all for your time in replying. It was good to find validation here for the way I was seeing things!
--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...> wrote:
>
> == To people who have or are parenting teens, what are your thoughts about charging "board" once they're working full time?==
>
> We have a 21 year old who lives at home and works. He attended public school until halfway through 7th grade, so from 5-12 years old. I started homeschooling him then but didn't start unschooling until about 6 months after that, which was really us deschooling for quite a while.
>
> He does not pay any rent or board. He buys some food and shares when he does but it's not much. He doesn't make very much money. He has been looking for his own place to rent with some friends but moving in is expensive and he's worried about whether or not he'll be able to cover all the expenses. I asked my husband how he felt about offering to help our son cover those bills and expenses, not because we want him to move out but because he wants to move out. I see it as us continuing to support him in his next endeavor. We agreed that we could do that for him.
>
> Alysia
>
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
IF his wash was in the basket could you have put in the drier for him?
Could you guys help him by an old car so he does not need to borrow yours?
Help him save enough for it or help him with a downpayment?
I would tell my son to let me know when he needed the car as not only a polite but mindful thing to do.
Could you set up a shelf in the refrigerator for each person so people know if a special food is being saved by someone?
FInd solutions that will help all family and that dad will feel respected and happy too.
There is nothing wrong in telling your child to let you know if he needs the car before taking.
Or to set up some food aside and not have it been eaten by someone else.
If I saw laundry that was in a basket wet I would just place in the drier and hit the button. Fast simple, no work at all. I would then tell my kid to get it or place it in his room.
I do that for my mom when she is staying here with us. She did it and does it for me too!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Could you guys help him by an old car so he does not need to borrow yours?
Help him save enough for it or help him with a downpayment?
I would tell my son to let me know when he needed the car as not only a polite but mindful thing to do.
Could you set up a shelf in the refrigerator for each person so people know if a special food is being saved by someone?
FInd solutions that will help all family and that dad will feel respected and happy too.
There is nothing wrong in telling your child to let you know if he needs the car before taking.
Or to set up some food aside and not have it been eaten by someone else.
If I saw laundry that was in a basket wet I would just place in the drier and hit the button. Fast simple, no work at all. I would then tell my kid to get it or place it in his room.
I do that for my mom when she is staying here with us. She did it and does it for me too!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
You didn't tell us how long you've been unschooling, and that matters a great deal
You said your husband is just trying to understand it.
How long was this 18 year old boy unschooled?
Sandra
You said your husband is just trying to understand it.
How long was this 18 year old boy unschooled?
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=- I asked my husband how he felt about offering to help our son cover those bills and expenses, not because we want him to move out but because he wants to move out. I see it as us continuing to support him in his next endeavor. We agreed that we could do that for him.-=-
This is really sweet.
Sometimes parents give a child a car (as a gift after high school or college). Very often, parents pay for room, board and transportation to and from a university somewhere (sometimes very distant). Those things are expensive, but the parents are investing in the child's future.
A lot of university investment doesn't pay off in the lonrun. But helping a child move out could.
Holly wanted to move out when she was 17 and we helped her some. She didn't want help, but we were prepared to help more. :-) She ended up at home again after a while.
Right now, she's dancing on the other side of the kitchen, and making food with her boyfriend. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is really sweet.
Sometimes parents give a child a car (as a gift after high school or college). Very often, parents pay for room, board and transportation to and from a university somewhere (sometimes very distant). Those things are expensive, but the parents are investing in the child's future.
A lot of university investment doesn't pay off in the lonrun. But helping a child move out could.
Holly wanted to move out when she was 17 and we helped her some. She didn't want help, but we were prepared to help more. :-) She ended up at home again after a while.
Right now, she's dancing on the other side of the kitchen, and making food with her boyfriend. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sylvia Woodman
I realize that I'm not the person you are asking as my kids are still both
under ten but I wanted to share how my family has dealt with this issue.
When I was in my mid twenties I moved home after living with a boyfriend
for a couple of years. It was not a healthy relationship and I was very
lucky that I had a family that would let me move back and live essentially
rent free while I got back on my feet. I was working full time and so were
my parents and while I couldn't pay what I was paying in rent since I was
deeply in debt at the time, I could swing the cost of a cleaning lady to
come in every other week so that was my way of contributing to the family.
Later, as I sorted things out, I would also pay for take out Chinese
suppers about once a week. After I met my husband I still lived home and
did the above stuff but my parents wanted me to save what I could have
spent on rent to apply towards my credit card debt so that I could start my
marriage to Jim debt free. Also that year my Grandfather's health began to
decline and he moved in with us. I do not believe that my parents charged
him rent either.
When my mother was getting ready to marry my father she also lived at home
(which was much more common in the early 1960s) she and here parents were
also working full time. They did not charge her rent but she did
contribute $100 a month that went into an account to help pay for her
wedding the cost of which was split between my parents and their parents.
Warmly,
Sylvia
under ten but I wanted to share how my family has dealt with this issue.
When I was in my mid twenties I moved home after living with a boyfriend
for a couple of years. It was not a healthy relationship and I was very
lucky that I had a family that would let me move back and live essentially
rent free while I got back on my feet. I was working full time and so were
my parents and while I couldn't pay what I was paying in rent since I was
deeply in debt at the time, I could swing the cost of a cleaning lady to
come in every other week so that was my way of contributing to the family.
Later, as I sorted things out, I would also pay for take out Chinese
suppers about once a week. After I met my husband I still lived home and
did the above stuff but my parents wanted me to save what I could have
spent on rent to apply towards my credit card debt so that I could start my
marriage to Jim debt free. Also that year my Grandfather's health began to
decline and he moved in with us. I do not believe that my parents charged
him rent either.
When my mother was getting ready to marry my father she also lived at home
(which was much more common in the early 1960s) she and here parents were
also working full time. They did not charge her rent but she did
contribute $100 a month that went into an account to help pay for her
wedding the cost of which was split between my parents and their parents.
Warmly,
Sylvia
On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 9:52 PM, freerangemum <freerangemum@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> To people who have or are parenting teens, what are your thoughts about
> charging "board" once they're working full time? The situation in our
> family that I am thinking of when I write this is: an 18yo son and 15yo
> son, both of whom are working now. My husband wants to start charging the
> 18yo $50 a week as his way of "contributing" because he breezes in and out,
> eats food etc but doesn't participate much in family life (he's nearly 19)
> or help with household tasks.
>
> What have others done when their children start working full time? In
> Australia we lose government payments once they are a certain age, so we
> are no longer receiving assistance for the 18yo, and will soon lose
> assistance payments for the 15yo. But my husband only wants to charge the
> 18yo board (because he is older, and because his attitude to home and
> family is different).
>
> Karen
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
freerangemum
--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
--IF his wash was in the basket could you have put in the drier for him?--
We live in a warm climate and the drier is very expensive, so we use a washing line, but yes, I would hang it out for him if I noticed it. I hadn't. *
--Could you guys help him by an old car so he does not need to borrow yours?--
We already did that. We gave him a car when he turned 17, which he later sold to buy a different one. He has done that a few times already, believe it or not (he really loves cars!). We pay his insurance for him. We have lent him money and given him things he has needed or wanted. At the moment his car is in for repairs so he is sharing cars with us. We happily share with him. It was simply that he was forgetting to ask, not telling us where he was or when he would be back, and when my husband would go outside to drive to work, the car would not be there. This was obviously a problem. My husband had asked him to check before taking the car but he wasn't doing it. This was the sort of issue we needed to talk with him about, because he does similar things with other issues, such as wearing his younger brothers clothes because he wants to, but without asking (clothes his brother has bought for himself). Once he even wore his brother's work clothes without checking, and his brother got in trouble at work for not wearing the right clothes (they're just cool black jeans and shirt - he's a barista). So this was an issue that was affecting other people in the family. For some reason, our son is taking longer than some other people to learn about respecting other people and their property. I understand that we all learn at different rates, and I speak with him calmly about it from time to time, pointing out the impact of his choices on other people.
--I would tell my son to let me know when he needed the car as not only a polite but mindful thing to do.--
Yes, that's what we've done.
--Could you set up a shelf in the refrigerator for each person so people know if a special food is being saved by someone?--
Yep, done that too! We bought a second fridge, so that food designated for cooking is kept separate from food that is available for anyone to eat, so that everyone knew what they could eat without checking. He also has a bar fridge in his room that he shares with his brother (it was bought by his brother). And yet there are still times when he takes food that he knows belongs to someone else. As I said, he is still learning to show respect for other people and their property. I love him regardless, but I also feel sad for those whose toes are trodden on, and home needs to be a place where their needs are respected too. He is still learning to do that, and it upsets his siblings. They are learning ways of dealing with this, such as being honest about how they feel, and asking him to please ask rather than just take.
freerangemum
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
--You didn't tell us how long you've been unschooling, and that matters a great deal--
He has been unschooled for about six years.
Schuyler
>> He also has a bar fridge in his room that he shares with his brother (it was bought by his brother). And yet there are still times when he takes food that he knows belongs to someone else. As I said, he is still learning to show respect for other people and their property. I love him regardless, but I also feel sad for those whose toes are trodden on, and home needs to be a place where their needs are respected too. He is still learning to do that, and it upsets his siblings. They are learning ways of dealing with this, such as being honest about how they feel, and asking him to please ask rather than just take.<<It sounds as though personal goods are something your son simply has a hard time understanding. It may help a lot if you help the other people in your family to maintain their own things separately, rather than expecting your older son to finally understand boundaries of personal space and property. Keep the car keys so that you will have knowledge of when he's taking the car and if it will inconvenience the other folks who need it. Make sure that his brother has his work clothes ready on the days when he is working and that they haven't gone strolling off on someone else's body. If there is food that is likely to be appealing, check and make sure that it is to hand in advance. See it as a limitation and make adjustments for it, don't expect him to understand because you explain it this way this time and that way the next time and eventually he'll get it. He's 18 and may simply not be ready to understand, capable of understanding how someone may need
something that he also needs and how those things can't be done at the same time. So step in and help to make sure that his inability to understand effects other folks as little as possible. Help to make it easier for everyone to live together.
Schuyler
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freerangemum
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
--It sounds as though personal goods are something your son simply has a hard time understanding. It may help a lot if you help the other people in your family to maintain their own things separately, rather than expecting your older son to finally understand boundaries of personal space and property.--
--He's 18 and may simply not be ready to understand, capable of understanding how someone may need something that he also needs and how those things can't be done at the same time. So step in and help to make sure that his inability to understand effects other folks as little as possible. Help to make it easier for everyone to live together.--
Yes, this is how I see it too. And I explain it this way to his younger brothers and sisters; that this is an area in which he is still learning and in the meantime we do what we can to help protect their things. The hardest situation is the 15yo brother, because they share a room. We are currently looking at renting a larger home, so that each child can have their own room, which will be so much easier!
I see this as another part of his life learning journey. And I happily shared with him yesterday about the areas where I know I can change the way I do things, to help our home function better for all of us. I think it's a wonderful thing in an unschooling family, to see the way that we are all learning different things at different times, and to be gracious with each other when something (like showing respect for other people's property) takes longer for one person than another.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I see this as another part of his life learning journey. And I happily shared with him yesterday about the areas where I know I can change the way I do things, to help our home function better for all of us. I think it's a wonderful thing in an unschooling family, to see the way that we are all learning different things at different times, and to be gracious with each other when something (like showing respect for other people's property) takes longer for one person than another.-=-
No, I think at 18, he shouldn't TOUCH the car keys without telling someone where he's going, without someone (the mom or dad) approving the use or not.
If there isn't enough food in the house, buy more. But if someone had leftovers from eating out, and they haven't offered them to be public, nobody else should eat them. Tell them to put their names on them.
Tell him to leave other people's clothes and food alone. He's old enough to understand that. He would be old enough to understand that if he was six.
I don't see this as an unschooling problem, and $50 a week "fine" (or "board") wouldn't help at all.
Maybe someone could talk to him.
If it would make your family more at peace to speak to a counsellor (or let your 18 year old son speak to a counsellor, who then might advise you about what might help) consider contacting Michelle Barone: http://michellebarone.com
She knows all about unschooling, so you won't need to explain any of that.
If that's not something you want to do (though I think the issues that have gotten your family to this point over six years are probably having other ill effects, too, and it would be a good idea), maybe review principles and choices and see whether you could discuss such things with your kids, in particular situations, so they could practice ways to make decisions that make the lives of the people around them better, easier, happier, more peaceful.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No, I think at 18, he shouldn't TOUCH the car keys without telling someone where he's going, without someone (the mom or dad) approving the use or not.
If there isn't enough food in the house, buy more. But if someone had leftovers from eating out, and they haven't offered them to be public, nobody else should eat them. Tell them to put their names on them.
Tell him to leave other people's clothes and food alone. He's old enough to understand that. He would be old enough to understand that if he was six.
I don't see this as an unschooling problem, and $50 a week "fine" (or "board") wouldn't help at all.
Maybe someone could talk to him.
If it would make your family more at peace to speak to a counsellor (or let your 18 year old son speak to a counsellor, who then might advise you about what might help) consider contacting Michelle Barone: http://michellebarone.com
She knows all about unschooling, so you won't need to explain any of that.
If that's not something you want to do (though I think the issues that have gotten your family to this point over six years are probably having other ill effects, too, and it would be a good idea), maybe review principles and choices and see whether you could discuss such things with your kids, in particular situations, so they could practice ways to make decisions that make the lives of the people around them better, easier, happier, more peaceful.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Laricchia
<< He's 18 and may simply not be ready to understand, capable of understanding how someone may need something that he also needs and how those things
can't be done at the same time. >>
Or he may understand it in discussion, but not have figured out ways to catch himself in the moment to stop and ask. When you're talking with him
about it, I imagine you've discussed what he's thinking when he does these things. If he understands the implications of his actions and chooses to do
them anyway, that's one (big) issue that definitely needs addressing.
But if he's apologetic, if he's finding that he's not able to realize in the moment that he should be checking in with others who may be affected by
his actions, instead of just waiting/talking and hoping he learns to do it some day, now would probably be a good time to start talking about tools
that will help him remember. It may be part of how his brain works and it's best to help him figure out ways to work with that before the consequences
become even more damaging. If he's regretful of his actions, I imagine he'd appreciate the help.
Talk with him about ways to set up the environment to remind him to do these things. He can then take these kinds of tools with him as he's out and
about in the world. I was thinking, as Schuyler suggested, that you could keep the car keys with you guys so he needs to come ask for them, prompting
a discussion about needs and timing (and you might have to call or text him to remind him if you need it back by a certain time). Or before you guys
leave, initiate a discussion with him asking whether he'll need the car while you're gone. Or maybe a note on the steering wheel would be enough to
catch his attention and remind him.
For the clothes, as a family you might consider keeping work and/or special clothes separate from regular clothes so they are off the beaten path. Or
visible signs on closet doors (or on work clothes/hangers) reminding him to ask, or locks on their bedroom doors, physically reminding him to ask
before entering.
There are lots of ways to catch his attention. You and your family can brainstorm and see which ones you'd like to try out (include everyone affected
in the conversation). See how well they work and tweak them from there. Over the years my husband and I have come up various ways to catch his
attention when it's needed, ways that don't embarrass or belittle him, and that minimize my frustration. :-)
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
can't be done at the same time. >>
Or he may understand it in discussion, but not have figured out ways to catch himself in the moment to stop and ask. When you're talking with him
about it, I imagine you've discussed what he's thinking when he does these things. If he understands the implications of his actions and chooses to do
them anyway, that's one (big) issue that definitely needs addressing.
But if he's apologetic, if he's finding that he's not able to realize in the moment that he should be checking in with others who may be affected by
his actions, instead of just waiting/talking and hoping he learns to do it some day, now would probably be a good time to start talking about tools
that will help him remember. It may be part of how his brain works and it's best to help him figure out ways to work with that before the consequences
become even more damaging. If he's regretful of his actions, I imagine he'd appreciate the help.
Talk with him about ways to set up the environment to remind him to do these things. He can then take these kinds of tools with him as he's out and
about in the world. I was thinking, as Schuyler suggested, that you could keep the car keys with you guys so he needs to come ask for them, prompting
a discussion about needs and timing (and you might have to call or text him to remind him if you need it back by a certain time). Or before you guys
leave, initiate a discussion with him asking whether he'll need the car while you're gone. Or maybe a note on the steering wheel would be enough to
catch his attention and remind him.
For the clothes, as a family you might consider keeping work and/or special clothes separate from regular clothes so they are off the beaten path. Or
visible signs on closet doors (or on work clothes/hangers) reminding him to ask, or locks on their bedroom doors, physically reminding him to ask
before entering.
There are lots of ways to catch his attention. You and your family can brainstorm and see which ones you'd like to try out (include everyone affected
in the conversation). See how well they work and tweak them from there. Over the years my husband and I have come up various ways to catch his
attention when it's needed, ways that don't embarrass or belittle him, and that minimize my frustration. :-)
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"freerangemum" <freerangemum@...> wrote:
I wonder if "speaking calmly" is part of the problem - it's not enough information. Sometimes, in an effort to parent peacefully, parents speak gently and explain sweetly and it comes across to the kids as "oh, it's no big deal". I'm not saying you should rant and rave, but be really definite that there are some things which aren't acceptable.
---Meredith
>I understand that we all learn at different rates, and I speak with him calmly about it from time to time, pointing out the impact of his choices on other people.*************
I wonder if "speaking calmly" is part of the problem - it's not enough information. Sometimes, in an effort to parent peacefully, parents speak gently and explain sweetly and it comes across to the kids as "oh, it's no big deal". I'm not saying you should rant and rave, but be really definite that there are some things which aren't acceptable.
---Meredith
Pam Sorooshian
Again - just want to say that I reread the whole original description and
it sounds so very passive.
About siblings:
be watched. I have three daughters who do share clothing a lot - and
occasionally one will wear something of anothers' without asking...but
believe me they let each other know in NO uncertain terms when they've
overstepped boundaries. I don't even understand siblings needing to "learn"
to ask him to "please ask rather than just take." I mean - isn't it natural
for a sibling to be pretty furious and let their brother know it? Are the
siblings really not reacting? They have to learn to react? This sounds odd.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
it sounds so very passive.
About siblings:
> They are learning ways of dealing with this, such as being honest aboutHow about mom watches him WAY more closely - more like a 5 year old would
> how they feel, and asking him to please ask rather than just take.>>
be watched. I have three daughters who do share clothing a lot - and
occasionally one will wear something of anothers' without asking...but
believe me they let each other know in NO uncertain terms when they've
overstepped boundaries. I don't even understand siblings needing to "learn"
to ask him to "please ask rather than just take." I mean - isn't it natural
for a sibling to be pretty furious and let their brother know it? Are the
siblings really not reacting? They have to learn to react? This sounds odd.
-pam
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Andrea Q
In Australia, there's a family tax benefit that some families receive. In the US, we get the child tax credit. They seem like similar things in theory, but the way they are paid/credited is very different.
Andrea Q
-=-In Australia we lose government payments once they are a certain age, so we are no longer receiving assistance for the 18yo, and will soon lose assistance payments for the 15yo.-=-
Andrea Q
-=-In Australia we lose government payments once they are a certain age, so we are no longer receiving assistance for the 18yo, and will soon lose assistance payments for the 15yo.-=-
>
> Are they foster children?
> If they're your biological children, why are you getting "government payments"?
freerangemum
> Again - just want to say that I reread the whole original description andLet me clarify by rephrasing my original comment?
> it sounds so very passive.
>
> About siblings:
>
> > They are learning ways of dealing with this, such as being honest about
> > how they feel, and asking him to please ask rather than just take.>>
They naturally feel very angry when he doesn't respect their property and they express it loud and clear! Their tendency has also been to attach negative labels to him. I am trying to show them ways of not only expressing their understandable frustration but also focussing on the facts of what they are upset about and what they want, so that the conversation can be constructive and focus on problem solving rather than staying stuck in anger and resentment. They are also learning to deal with the situation preventatively by setting up better ways of protecting their property.