Joining Group Activities
mrsmakeen
Hello,
This is my first post. I've been homeschooling my two boys (ages 6 & 9) almost a year now, unschooling for the last 5 months. I'm looking for ideas to give my sons more interaction with other kids, and help them feel more confident approaching social situations.
We live in a suburban area where there are plenty of extracurricular activities they could participate in, but every time I suggest something, no matter what it is, they refuse to give it a chance. The only social interaction they get is informally playing with kids in the neighborhood, and with relatives (a few times a month). We also go to the local playground every few days but they mostly play with each other. Neither is the type to strike up conversations with people they don't know. Neither has any close friends.
My main concern is my older son. He attended public school through 2nd grade. He didn't develop any close friendships (in fact, near the end of his time there he was bullied by the two kids he usually hung out with at recess). When he was younger we put him in various extracurricular activities and he definitely enjoyed some of them, but the last year or two, he's been uninterested in participating in any organized activity, and the most recent activities were, in my opinion, not well-run and I don't blame him for not liking them.
Last week we took him to a 2-day workshop at the Apple Store (dh had signed him up, without consulting him). Ds was very reluctant to participate, and right before things were to begin, he actually had tears in his eyes. (when he went to school and when he joined activities when he was younger, he never cried - it's something new since we started homeschooling.) Anyway, things turned out ok because they let my other son participate so he had his little brother right there, and the activity turned out to be fun for him - making music and movies on the iPad. But...
Dh was upset when he saw the way ds was acting. He said his behavior's gotten too extreme, he's too isolated, and he should be put back in school. I don't agree that putting him in school would solve much, and I'm confident I can dissuade dh from this, but I do agree dh has a point: ds's behavior has become more extreme since taking him out of school and I'm not sure how to help him. It used to seem that he was simply uninterested in trying new activities. Now it seems to be a fear of social situations.
Now (this time of year) there are lots of opportunities to sign up for extracurricular activities. I feel pressure to have them interact more formally with others, to show dh (and the countless others who ask "what about socializing?") that they ARE socializing. I need to make a decision in the next week or two before deadlines arrive, what to sign them up for -- but everything I suggest, they say they don't want to do, and I'm wary of committing to things "behind their backs". (It is frustrating that my 6-yr-old, who is more confident socially, is following his brother's lead: when I asked him yesterday if he'd prefer to play soccer or wiffleball -both of which he loves, though he's never been part of a team before- he said "I don't want to do those stupid things!" or something along those lines.)
From what I understand about unschooling, I should let the kids take the lead and choose what and if they want to join group activities. But I think they're not giving things a chance and missing out on social interactions and learning new skills/sports that they would likely end up really enjoying.
Thank you for reading this, and I look forward to your advice.
This is my first post. I've been homeschooling my two boys (ages 6 & 9) almost a year now, unschooling for the last 5 months. I'm looking for ideas to give my sons more interaction with other kids, and help them feel more confident approaching social situations.
We live in a suburban area where there are plenty of extracurricular activities they could participate in, but every time I suggest something, no matter what it is, they refuse to give it a chance. The only social interaction they get is informally playing with kids in the neighborhood, and with relatives (a few times a month). We also go to the local playground every few days but they mostly play with each other. Neither is the type to strike up conversations with people they don't know. Neither has any close friends.
My main concern is my older son. He attended public school through 2nd grade. He didn't develop any close friendships (in fact, near the end of his time there he was bullied by the two kids he usually hung out with at recess). When he was younger we put him in various extracurricular activities and he definitely enjoyed some of them, but the last year or two, he's been uninterested in participating in any organized activity, and the most recent activities were, in my opinion, not well-run and I don't blame him for not liking them.
Last week we took him to a 2-day workshop at the Apple Store (dh had signed him up, without consulting him). Ds was very reluctant to participate, and right before things were to begin, he actually had tears in his eyes. (when he went to school and when he joined activities when he was younger, he never cried - it's something new since we started homeschooling.) Anyway, things turned out ok because they let my other son participate so he had his little brother right there, and the activity turned out to be fun for him - making music and movies on the iPad. But...
Dh was upset when he saw the way ds was acting. He said his behavior's gotten too extreme, he's too isolated, and he should be put back in school. I don't agree that putting him in school would solve much, and I'm confident I can dissuade dh from this, but I do agree dh has a point: ds's behavior has become more extreme since taking him out of school and I'm not sure how to help him. It used to seem that he was simply uninterested in trying new activities. Now it seems to be a fear of social situations.
Now (this time of year) there are lots of opportunities to sign up for extracurricular activities. I feel pressure to have them interact more formally with others, to show dh (and the countless others who ask "what about socializing?") that they ARE socializing. I need to make a decision in the next week or two before deadlines arrive, what to sign them up for -- but everything I suggest, they say they don't want to do, and I'm wary of committing to things "behind their backs". (It is frustrating that my 6-yr-old, who is more confident socially, is following his brother's lead: when I asked him yesterday if he'd prefer to play soccer or wiffleball -both of which he loves, though he's never been part of a team before- he said "I don't want to do those stupid things!" or something along those lines.)
From what I understand about unschooling, I should let the kids take the lead and choose what and if they want to join group activities. But I think they're not giving things a chance and missing out on social interactions and learning new skills/sports that they would likely end up really enjoying.
Thank you for reading this, and I look forward to your advice.
Sandra Dodd
-=-, but every time I suggest something, no matter what it is, they refuse to give it a chance.-=-
That sounds antagonistic. "They refuse" sounds more like you were pushing something than "suggesting."
-=-Last week we took him to a 2-day workshop at the Apple Store (dh had signed him up, without consulting him). Ds was very reluctant to participate, and right before things were to begin, he actually had tears in his eyes. (when he went to school and when he joined activities when he was younger, he never cried - it's something new since we started homeschooling.) Anyway, things turned out ok because they let my other son participate so he had his little brother right there, and the activity turned out to be fun for him - making music and movies on the iPad. But��-=-
BUT� why didn't your husband go with him?
How would YOU have felt if someone signed you up for a two day workshop (or a one HOUR workshop) without asking you?
How would your husband feel if you signed him up for a two day workshop without asking him?
As trusting relationships go, I think both of you are getting colder, not warmer.
-=- ds's behavior has become more extreme since taking him out of school and I'm not sure how to help him. It used to seem that he was simply uninterested in trying new activities. Now it seems to be a fear of social situations.
-=-
#1, you're making it worse
#2, he was bullied when he was in school
#3, he's 9 years old. Let him be home, at peace, until he himself wants more interaction.
-=-Dh was upset when he saw the way ds was acting.-=-
Your husband created that situation. I think any objective observer would have been on your son's side.
-=- I feel pressure to have them interact more formally with others, to show dh (and the countless others who ask "what about socializing?") that they ARE socializing. -=-
People NEVER ask "what about socializing?"
They ask, "What about socialization?"
You and your husband are trying to enforce some "socialization." It is NOT socializing.
You should, as a family, find friends and do things with other people. Don't send your kids out, school-style, to sink or swim in social situation. Be in social situation as a group, as a family.
-=-and I'm wary of committing to things "behind their backs".-=-
Good.
You should have a firm policy and a moral certitude about not commiting anyone to anything, ever.
-=-From what I understand about unschooling, I should let the kids take the lead and choose what and if they want to join group activities. But I think they're not giving things a chance and missing out on social interactions and learning new skills/sports that they would likely end up really enjoying. -=-
The misunderstanding comes from "take the lead."
You should be doing cool things WITH them, and your husband should be, too.
I think you and your husband aren't giving unschooling a chance. You want it to look like school, where you stay home while the boys are off with kids their age. That's not what unschooling looks like.
http://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/unschooling-is-not-child-led-learning/
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Let your children be at peace, and grow into their own desire to venture out. The more you pressure, the more they will want to stay home. The more confident they are at home, the more confident they will be when they want to explore.
There have been families throughout history where the kids only saw siblings (maybe occasionally cousins) for years, who grew up with no neighors within walking distance, and they grew up fine.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That sounds antagonistic. "They refuse" sounds more like you were pushing something than "suggesting."
-=-Last week we took him to a 2-day workshop at the Apple Store (dh had signed him up, without consulting him). Ds was very reluctant to participate, and right before things were to begin, he actually had tears in his eyes. (when he went to school and when he joined activities when he was younger, he never cried - it's something new since we started homeschooling.) Anyway, things turned out ok because they let my other son participate so he had his little brother right there, and the activity turned out to be fun for him - making music and movies on the iPad. But��-=-
BUT� why didn't your husband go with him?
How would YOU have felt if someone signed you up for a two day workshop (or a one HOUR workshop) without asking you?
How would your husband feel if you signed him up for a two day workshop without asking him?
As trusting relationships go, I think both of you are getting colder, not warmer.
-=- ds's behavior has become more extreme since taking him out of school and I'm not sure how to help him. It used to seem that he was simply uninterested in trying new activities. Now it seems to be a fear of social situations.
-=-
#1, you're making it worse
#2, he was bullied when he was in school
#3, he's 9 years old. Let him be home, at peace, until he himself wants more interaction.
-=-Dh was upset when he saw the way ds was acting.-=-
Your husband created that situation. I think any objective observer would have been on your son's side.
-=- I feel pressure to have them interact more formally with others, to show dh (and the countless others who ask "what about socializing?") that they ARE socializing. -=-
People NEVER ask "what about socializing?"
They ask, "What about socialization?"
You and your husband are trying to enforce some "socialization." It is NOT socializing.
You should, as a family, find friends and do things with other people. Don't send your kids out, school-style, to sink or swim in social situation. Be in social situation as a group, as a family.
-=-and I'm wary of committing to things "behind their backs".-=-
Good.
You should have a firm policy and a moral certitude about not commiting anyone to anything, ever.
-=-From what I understand about unschooling, I should let the kids take the lead and choose what and if they want to join group activities. But I think they're not giving things a chance and missing out on social interactions and learning new skills/sports that they would likely end up really enjoying. -=-
The misunderstanding comes from "take the lead."
You should be doing cool things WITH them, and your husband should be, too.
I think you and your husband aren't giving unschooling a chance. You want it to look like school, where you stay home while the boys are off with kids their age. That's not what unschooling looks like.
http://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/unschooling-is-not-child-led-learning/
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Let your children be at peace, and grow into their own desire to venture out. The more you pressure, the more they will want to stay home. The more confident they are at home, the more confident they will be when they want to explore.
There have been families throughout history where the kids only saw siblings (maybe occasionally cousins) for years, who grew up with no neighors within walking distance, and they grew up fine.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rinelle
>>There have been families throughout history where the kids only sawI was one of those kids after a fashion. My family moved to an isolated
>>siblings (maybe occasionally cousins) for years, who grew up with no
>>neighors within walking distance, and they grew up fine.<<
area when I was about 11, and my sister was 7. We did school of distance
education (only option to homeschool in Queensland, Australia at the time,
and only then if you met certain criteria for isolation) for 5 years, with
little contact with other kids. I had my sister, and saw cousins once or
twice a year. I didn't do any organised activities until I was about 15, we
lived a long way from the nearest town, and only went there once a week at
most.
Then, at 16, I choose to go to the localish high school (we'd moved a little
closer by then), and had a great time, no problems at all fitting in with
other kids my age. In fact, I think those years of not socialising with my
peers had helped. I'd been teased at school, and lost a lot of my
confidence. Those years without pressure really helped me regain that
confidence, and if I'd been forced to socialise, I don't think that would
have happened.
Of course, I was lucky that our situation fitted with my personal
preferences. I think it was harder on my sister, who needed more social
contact that I did, so I'm not recommending that anyone force this on their
kids anymore than I recommend anyone force socialising on kids. Luckily,
most of us are in the position of being able to let our kids choose.
With my daughter, who had never been to school or been teased, she wasn't
interested in being around other children until about 6, so we spent a lot
of time at home, or just with each other. Then, when she showed an interest
in other kids we went looking for them. But she was always far happier
meeting a child she knew at home than in signing up for group activities.
Even now (she's 8), she will usually choose playdates with friends over
organised activities, though there are one or two she will make exceptions
for, and only then if she knows that she will see people she already knows
there.
Tamara
Meredith
"mrsmakeen" <mrsmakeen@...> wrote:
Is that something they want? Are they pining for friends? From your description, it seems like they're enjoying getting closer to one another and taking a break from the kinds of group activities that they had to deal with when they were in school.
That's adding up to something more than once a week - which could be plenty for them - once a week or even less can be plenty for some kids! My daughter is a strong introvert and there are times when one outing a week pushes her limit of "social time". If your guys are enjoying playing together, they may not need very much in the way of outings at all. How nice that they're so close!
School sets up an unrealistic expectation as to how much time kids need to socialize with other people, especially other kids. In reality, social kids can find school frustrating because so much of the time they're not Allowed to socialize, while introverts can spend a lot of energy shutting down because there are too many people around.
It's really normal once kids relax away from the pressures of school to start seeing more emotional reactions. Kids in school learn early that it's neither safe nor particularly helpful to express their feelings. Crying doesn't get them out of school, or out of doing the various activities in school.
It might help to flip that sentiment around - maybe from their perspective, you're not giving them a chance to spend time at home, doing things on their own or together or with their parents, learning about themselves and their world in ways which are comfortable for them.
If you keep pushing activities at them, they won't get a chance to decide they want to do things out of the home - they'll only get to choose yes or no to what you push at them. If you keep pushing "socialization" on them, they won't get a chance to discover how they like to learn about other people. Step back and let them nest for awhile.
---Meredith
> I'm looking for ideas to give my sons more interaction with other kids, and help them feel more confident approaching social situations*************
Is that something they want? Are they pining for friends? From your description, it seems like they're enjoying getting closer to one another and taking a break from the kinds of group activities that they had to deal with when they were in school.
>> The only social interaction they get is informally playing with kids in the neighborhood, and with relatives (a few times a month).****************
That's adding up to something more than once a week - which could be plenty for them - once a week or even less can be plenty for some kids! My daughter is a strong introvert and there are times when one outing a week pushes her limit of "social time". If your guys are enjoying playing together, they may not need very much in the way of outings at all. How nice that they're so close!
School sets up an unrealistic expectation as to how much time kids need to socialize with other people, especially other kids. In reality, social kids can find school frustrating because so much of the time they're not Allowed to socialize, while introverts can spend a lot of energy shutting down because there are too many people around.
>>(when he went to school and when he joined activities when he was younger, he never cried - it's something new since we started homeschooling.)*************
It's really normal once kids relax away from the pressures of school to start seeing more emotional reactions. Kids in school learn early that it's neither safe nor particularly helpful to express their feelings. Crying doesn't get them out of school, or out of doing the various activities in school.
>>I think they're not giving things a chance and missing out on social interactions and learning new skills/sports that they would likely end up really enjoying**************
It might help to flip that sentiment around - maybe from their perspective, you're not giving them a chance to spend time at home, doing things on their own or together or with their parents, learning about themselves and their world in ways which are comfortable for them.
If you keep pushing activities at them, they won't get a chance to decide they want to do things out of the home - they'll only get to choose yes or no to what you push at them. If you keep pushing "socialization" on them, they won't get a chance to discover how they like to learn about other people. Step back and let them nest for awhile.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 11, 2012, at 4:12 PM, mrsmakeen wrote:
Being an introvert, being forced to be social everyday in school was exhausting and intimidating for me. I didn't learn how to be more social. I learned how to blend into the wall so no one noticed me.
My daughter, on the other hand, who is also an introvert, does marvelously well with groups. She had the freedom to choose when to be with other people and when to be at home.
People learn how to interact with others by watching others interact. But put an introvert in a new group situation, they're not focused outward at other people. They're focused inward. They're focused on their discomfort. They're not learning. Or not learning to socialize! They're learning they're awkward unlike the others around them. They're learning they're different and different is bad. They're learning they don't like being in groups.
The best way for introverts to learn to socialize is with the people they're comfortable with: their family. And then whatever friends they feel comfortable with.
Then when they're older and their desire to get something from a group is greater than their discomfort of being in a group, they'll have the skills they picked up from people they trust.
You could give them a handful of tips on how to interact with people in a couple of minutes. (The best being: "Study other people who make you feel comfortable." :-)) But the best social skill they can have is being comfortable in their own skin, knowing that who they are is okay, so that they can turn their attention to other people when they're in social situations. And *that* doesn't come from being told their feelings about their discomfort aren't to be trusted, that they don't know what they need, that other people know them better than they know themselves.
You're looking outwards at messages of how kids are "supposed to be". Look at your own kids. What do they like? What bring them joy? What floats their boats?
One of the worst parenting practices that has spread is dismissing kids' happiness as an indicator of how well they're doing. Parents "have to" send them to school which make kids miserable. Parents "have to" tell them no which makes them upset. Parents "have to" make them do chores, get up, go to bed, eat their liver ... all of which make them unhappy. Conventional parents must steel themselves against their children's unhappiness in order to be "good" parents. Kids happiness makes parenting more *convenient* but is justified as not an important factor.
Peace and contentment are vitally important to growing up whole. Happiness is a good indicator of those.
It sounds like he may be more of a social introvert. Extroverts get recharged by being with people and find being alone draining. Introverts get recharged by being alone and find groups draining. Social introverts enjoy other people but similarly get recharged by being alone.
Even though he has absorbed the skills to be social, he needs that recharge time. He's spent so much time with forced socialization that he needs a long time alone to recharge.
He'll let you know when he's ready for social activities.
They need time to recover from school, including school at home. They need time to recover from being forced to be social. It's like the time spent laying on the couch letting a broken leg set. The leg heals slower if someone is forced to be up doing things while the leg is working hard at healing.
Your kids will let you know when they need more. If they don't do something this year that interests them, they'll do it next year. Or the year after. Or when they're 15. As long as these activities are available for them to choose, they'll choose when *they* need them.
Joyce
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> I'm looking for ideas to give my sons more interaction with other kidsThe first is good -- *if* that's what they're asking for!
> and help them feel more confident approaching social situations.Which is something extroverts say because they think introverts are broken and need fixed. If introverts ran the world we'd make extroverts spend 8 hours a day by themselves so they weren't so dependent on being around other people to feel okay ;-)
Being an introvert, being forced to be social everyday in school was exhausting and intimidating for me. I didn't learn how to be more social. I learned how to blend into the wall so no one noticed me.
My daughter, on the other hand, who is also an introvert, does marvelously well with groups. She had the freedom to choose when to be with other people and when to be at home.
People learn how to interact with others by watching others interact. But put an introvert in a new group situation, they're not focused outward at other people. They're focused inward. They're focused on their discomfort. They're not learning. Or not learning to socialize! They're learning they're awkward unlike the others around them. They're learning they're different and different is bad. They're learning they don't like being in groups.
The best way for introverts to learn to socialize is with the people they're comfortable with: their family. And then whatever friends they feel comfortable with.
Then when they're older and their desire to get something from a group is greater than their discomfort of being in a group, they'll have the skills they picked up from people they trust.
You could give them a handful of tips on how to interact with people in a couple of minutes. (The best being: "Study other people who make you feel comfortable." :-)) But the best social skill they can have is being comfortable in their own skin, knowing that who they are is okay, so that they can turn their attention to other people when they're in social situations. And *that* doesn't come from being told their feelings about their discomfort aren't to be trusted, that they don't know what they need, that other people know them better than they know themselves.
> no matter what it is, they refuse to give it a chance. ... Neither is the type to strike up conversations with people they don't know. Neither has any close friends.Are they happy?
You're looking outwards at messages of how kids are "supposed to be". Look at your own kids. What do they like? What bring them joy? What floats their boats?
One of the worst parenting practices that has spread is dismissing kids' happiness as an indicator of how well they're doing. Parents "have to" send them to school which make kids miserable. Parents "have to" tell them no which makes them upset. Parents "have to" make them do chores, get up, go to bed, eat their liver ... all of which make them unhappy. Conventional parents must steel themselves against their children's unhappiness in order to be "good" parents. Kids happiness makes parenting more *convenient* but is justified as not an important factor.
Peace and contentment are vitally important to growing up whole. Happiness is a good indicator of those.
> It is frustrating that my 6-yr-old, whoI suspect he's following his own "lead" but the fact that his brother can stay home is letting him know it's okay to stay home too.
> is more confident socially, is following his brother's lead
It sounds like he may be more of a social introvert. Extroverts get recharged by being with people and find being alone draining. Introverts get recharged by being alone and find groups draining. Social introverts enjoy other people but similarly get recharged by being alone.
Even though he has absorbed the skills to be social, he needs that recharge time. He's spent so much time with forced socialization that he needs a long time alone to recharge.
He'll let you know when he's ready for social activities.
> But I think they're not giving things a chance and missing outThey seem to be enjoying what they're doing but you're looking elsewhere. While unschooling parents should keep the environment lively, bringing in new things to leave about -- see Sandra's Strewing page ( http://sandradodd.com/strewing ) --, new or old favorites of yours TV shows and movies, taking them places -- a new playground, a new grocery store, an historical re-enactment, a polo match -- the indicator of how well you're doing should be your kids peace, contentment and happiness.
> on social interactions and learning new skills/sports that they
> would likely end up really enjoying.
They need time to recover from school, including school at home. They need time to recover from being forced to be social. It's like the time spent laying on the couch letting a broken leg set. The leg heals slower if someone is forced to be up doing things while the leg is working hard at healing.
Your kids will let you know when they need more. If they don't do something this year that interests them, they'll do it next year. Or the year after. Or when they're 15. As long as these activities are available for them to choose, they'll choose when *they* need them.
Joyce
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Joyce Fetteroll
> when he went to school and when he joined activities whenHe learned not to express what he was really feeling because what he felt didn't matter.
> he was younger, he never cried - it's something new since
> we started homeschooling.
Now you're seeing what he really felt all along.
People laugh in prison. But that doesn't mean they're enjoying being in prison.
So I'll amend what I said before. Happiness alone isn't enough as an indicator. Happiness in conjunction with the freedom to choose, including the choice of "none of the above" and "something else, please!" is a good indicator of peace and contentment.
Joyce
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Tam
Sorry, pressed send by accident. I meant to pick out this-
Tam
>> If introverts ran the world we'd make extroverts spend 8 hours a day by themselves so they weren't so dependent on being around other people to feel okay ;-)I'm an introvert, my six year old son Finn is an introvert and my four year old son Jay is an extrovert. I've learnt how to overcome some of my discomfort and find ways of dealing with it so I can stay longer in social situations so that Jay can get his fill of being around people. For Finn, we've always made sure he can leave a social situation once he's had his fill too, which, depending on the people he's with, tends to be much sooner. However, despite me being an introvert, and knowing the discomfort of being made to stay longer than that, when we do leave 'early' I've had a quiet voice in my mind saying "But... What if he should stay". I've not acted on it or vocalised it, and now I realise it's just the tape in my head of all the extroverts who used to make me feel that there was something wrong with me. So thanks for helping me hear this voice for what it is :)
>>
>>
Tam
>>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
mrsmakeen
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
But I do hear your point: signing them up for things without their consent, and pushing them to do an activity (even though they ended up enjoying it) does not help build a trusting relationship. My son's tears were proof of that. I humbly appreciate your pointing out what we've been doing. I will try to change that (.....I'm pausing as I type this, contemplating the results of GUIDING rather than PUSHING. This seems to be about my giving up some control over them, changing my role a bit, I guess this is all part of de-schooling myself...)
Back to the question of joining group activities, I still have a question about my younger son, as I mentioned in my original post. I truly believe he'd enjoy playing soccer and/or t-ball with a team this fall, but when I suggested it to him, he immediately rejected the idea, though as a 6-yr-old, he doesn't actually know what it would be like. If we were not unschoolers, I would probably just sign him up anyway, and knowing him (he is athletic and a natural team-player), he'd end up really enjoying it. But since I'm trying harder to build trust, I don't want to make him go when he says he doesn't want to. It just seems a shame for him to miss out because he rejected the idea without even knowing what it entailed. Any thoughts?
We don't know any other unschoolers, so the norm that we see is kids being over-scheduled and thrown into group situations all the time. It's refreshing to hear you all remind me what's best for my kids is honestly what I prefer the most anyway: to hang out with them at home and enjoy life together. It seems I still have a lot more de-schooling of myself to go!
>> BUT why didn't your husband go with him?>>just to clarify: My husband did come. He & I were in the room the whole time. The workshop was only 1.5 hrs each day. After the initial 5 min. of anxiety, my son enjoyed it, and was quite willing to return the second day. The first day, all the kids were together while the parents just hung out on the sidelines, and the second day, my husband & I worked alongside the boys helping them edit the videos they'd created. All four of us learned to use software on our home computer that we previously hadn't known how to use, plus the kids each came home with a short video they'd made themselves - so in retrospect, it was a positive experience for us all.
But I do hear your point: signing them up for things without their consent, and pushing them to do an activity (even though they ended up enjoying it) does not help build a trusting relationship. My son's tears were proof of that. I humbly appreciate your pointing out what we've been doing. I will try to change that (.....I'm pausing as I type this, contemplating the results of GUIDING rather than PUSHING. This seems to be about my giving up some control over them, changing my role a bit, I guess this is all part of de-schooling myself...)
Back to the question of joining group activities, I still have a question about my younger son, as I mentioned in my original post. I truly believe he'd enjoy playing soccer and/or t-ball with a team this fall, but when I suggested it to him, he immediately rejected the idea, though as a 6-yr-old, he doesn't actually know what it would be like. If we were not unschoolers, I would probably just sign him up anyway, and knowing him (he is athletic and a natural team-player), he'd end up really enjoying it. But since I'm trying harder to build trust, I don't want to make him go when he says he doesn't want to. It just seems a shame for him to miss out because he rejected the idea without even knowing what it entailed. Any thoughts?
>> People NEVER ask "what about socializing?".
> They ask, "What about socialization?">>
> You and your husband are trying to enforce some "socialization." It is NOT socializing. >>Thank you. I never realized that distinction before. That gives me a new way to look at things, and helps me feel more confident (better armed, so to speak) when explaining ourselves to those who question keeping the kids home (including my husband:))
We don't know any other unschoolers, so the norm that we see is kids being over-scheduled and thrown into group situations all the time. It's refreshing to hear you all remind me what's best for my kids is honestly what I prefer the most anyway: to hang out with them at home and enjoy life together. It seems I still have a lot more de-schooling of myself to go!
mrsmakeen
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>THANK YOU! Your words are right on, and exactly what I needed to hear. As an introvert myself, I'm a bit ashamed I put so much weight on other people's and society's ideas that my kids NEED a certain amount of social time in order to "be normal." Yes, they're very happy at home. Happier than when they were at school. And I'm happier than when they were at school too. If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
>
> Which is something extroverts say because they think introverts are broken and need fixed. If introverts ran the world we'd make extroverts spend 8 hours a day by themselves so they weren't so dependent on being around other people to feel okay ;-)
>
Sandra Dodd
Joyce's entire post is golden.
I'm an extrovert. My husband is an introvert. He doens't have a lot of friends. He could have. He doesn't socialize at work. He "should." He might have had more promotions if he would take other guys out for lunch, or go to dinners when other engineers are visiting in town. I don't pressure him about it, though, because I would rather him be comfortable. I love him anyway. :-)
Years ago, before I had children, there was a family therapist on Phil Donahue, or one of the talk shows like that. Pre-Oprah. :-) He said something I had never considered. He said one of the worst things that happens in a family is for two introverted parents to have an extroverted child. Or for two extroverted parents to have an introverted child. That was 30 years ago, more or less, and it would be really good if that's not as big a problem in the 21st century.
What he said, though, was that those parents take their child to a psychologist to try to "fix" him.
Homeschoolers, though, especially, don't need to "repair" a child so that he can fit in at school.
Unschoolers, particularly, shouldn't need to try to make their children into anything other than a safe and whole.
My husband doesn't talk a lot about unschooling, but once when he was asked about our unschooling, he said that we wanted our children to grow up undamaged.
Please don't damage your children. You don't have to do that. It won't help anything or anybody.
The benefits of unschooling will be canceled out if you fail to learn to look directly at your own child as the individual he is, rather than trying to make him a generic person.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2011/03/how-important-is-your-child.html
If your child is more important than your vision of your child, life becomes easier.
Sandra
I'm an extrovert. My husband is an introvert. He doens't have a lot of friends. He could have. He doesn't socialize at work. He "should." He might have had more promotions if he would take other guys out for lunch, or go to dinners when other engineers are visiting in town. I don't pressure him about it, though, because I would rather him be comfortable. I love him anyway. :-)
Years ago, before I had children, there was a family therapist on Phil Donahue, or one of the talk shows like that. Pre-Oprah. :-) He said something I had never considered. He said one of the worst things that happens in a family is for two introverted parents to have an extroverted child. Or for two extroverted parents to have an introverted child. That was 30 years ago, more or less, and it would be really good if that's not as big a problem in the 21st century.
What he said, though, was that those parents take their child to a psychologist to try to "fix" him.
Homeschoolers, though, especially, don't need to "repair" a child so that he can fit in at school.
Unschoolers, particularly, shouldn't need to try to make their children into anything other than a safe and whole.
My husband doesn't talk a lot about unschooling, but once when he was asked about our unschooling, he said that we wanted our children to grow up undamaged.
Please don't damage your children. You don't have to do that. It won't help anything or anybody.
The benefits of unschooling will be canceled out if you fail to learn to look directly at your own child as the individual he is, rather than trying to make him a generic person.
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2011/03/how-important-is-your-child.html
If your child is more important than your vision of your child, life becomes easier.
Sandra
Robert and Colleen
****Which is something extroverts say because they think introverts are
broken and need fixed. If introverts ran the world we'd make extroverts
spend 8 hours a day by themselves so they weren't so dependent on being
around other people to feel okay ;-)****
I have a book that I picked up at our library book sale -
Party Of One: The Loners' Manifesto, by Anneli Rufus
It's about introverts (though the author more often uses the word loner,
which I'm not sure I like so much as introvert :-)) and the back cover
reads, in part, "Assembling evidence from diverse arenas of culture, Rufus
recognizes loners as a vital force in world civilization rather than damaged
goods that need to be 'fixed.'"
If anyone's looking for what I found to be a pretty thorough and interesting
look at why and how some people thrive in the company of themselves rather
than a bunch of others :-) I think it's well worth a read. Note - this
recommendation is coming from an introvert who lives happily with two
extroverts (my husband and my son) - all of us supporting each other in
getting the level of social interaction we each need and enjoy :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
broken and need fixed. If introverts ran the world we'd make extroverts
spend 8 hours a day by themselves so they weren't so dependent on being
around other people to feel okay ;-)****
I have a book that I picked up at our library book sale -
Party Of One: The Loners' Manifesto, by Anneli Rufus
It's about introverts (though the author more often uses the word loner,
which I'm not sure I like so much as introvert :-)) and the back cover
reads, in part, "Assembling evidence from diverse arenas of culture, Rufus
recognizes loners as a vital force in world civilization rather than damaged
goods that need to be 'fixed.'"
If anyone's looking for what I found to be a pretty thorough and interesting
look at why and how some people thrive in the company of themselves rather
than a bunch of others :-) I think it's well worth a read. Note - this
recommendation is coming from an introvert who lives happily with two
extroverts (my husband and my son) - all of us supporting each other in
getting the level of social interaction we each need and enjoy :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
I'm working on a page on introversion for my site, and came across this. Also by Joyce, it has profound ideas about how to accept introversion, and nurture it.
http://sandradodd.com/tvchoice
Sandra
http://sandradodd.com/tvchoice
Sandra
Robyn Coburn
Sounds to me like there has not been sufficient Deschooling. If the
workshop sign ups and pressure to do activities continued all through
the time home schooling and then into the 5 months unschooling, that
is probably not effective deschooling for any of you.
More when I am on a better computer maybe.
Robyn L. Coburn
WWW.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
WWW.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
WWW.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
workshop sign ups and pressure to do activities continued all through
the time home schooling and then into the 5 months unschooling, that
is probably not effective deschooling for any of you.
More when I am on a better computer maybe.
Robyn L. Coburn
WWW.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
WWW.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
WWW.allthingsdoll.blogspot.com
Sandra Dodd
This is lifted from an interview that will be on a blog in India within a week, I think. Sorry to spoil any of the exclusivity of that, but let this be a preview, instead. :-)
It's about socialization, and I wrote it a few weeks ago.
------------------------
Socialization" is a harsh word that sounds soft.
When I was in school, the only bad grades I got were in conduct. Because I talked to other kids at school, I would be given Cs in "deportment" or conduct. I was socializing. I heard several times over my public school years, "You're not here to socialize."
But when homeschooling's critics ask "What about socialization?" what they're envisioning is children playing with other children, and learning how to work together. In reality, there are schools where conversation is forbidden during lunchtime.
"Socialization," though, is something done to people. It's a kind of training, "to socialize" a person. And schools do that very, very badly. The things children actually learn in school include being sneaky, pretending to read, bluffing their way through classes, padding their writing with fluff, and bullying without being caught. I never wanted my children "socialized" in that environment.
What happens instead when a family creates a good homeschooling experience for their children (unschooling or structured), the children meet and interact with people of different ages, rather than just 20 or 30 others of the same age, overseen by a single adult. They are actually having discussions and activities involving different humans in the real world, doing real things rather than practice things. They are being social, and becoming social, through real world social interactions.
_____________________
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's about socialization, and I wrote it a few weeks ago.
------------------------
Socialization" is a harsh word that sounds soft.
When I was in school, the only bad grades I got were in conduct. Because I talked to other kids at school, I would be given Cs in "deportment" or conduct. I was socializing. I heard several times over my public school years, "You're not here to socialize."
But when homeschooling's critics ask "What about socialization?" what they're envisioning is children playing with other children, and learning how to work together. In reality, there are schools where conversation is forbidden during lunchtime.
"Socialization," though, is something done to people. It's a kind of training, "to socialize" a person. And schools do that very, very badly. The things children actually learn in school include being sneaky, pretending to read, bluffing their way through classes, padding their writing with fluff, and bullying without being caught. I never wanted my children "socialized" in that environment.
What happens instead when a family creates a good homeschooling experience for their children (unschooling or structured), the children meet and interact with people of different ages, rather than just 20 or 30 others of the same age, overseen by a single adult. They are actually having discussions and activities involving different humans in the real world, doing real things rather than practice things. They are being social, and becoming social, through real world social interactions.
_____________________
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
****Which is something extroverts say because they think introverts are
After answering a few questions and doing a few exercises, everyone gets put into one of four color categories. Then we were all split up into our respective groups. I was the only person in my color category. As everyone was moving around to join their groups, one of the leaders of the workshop told everyone not to worry about the lone green (or whatever color I was) because that was just how greens like it.
He was absolutely correct. I thought it was very cool that I was in a group unto myself. I did not want to join any of the other groups. I prefer to be by myself, to work by myself. I absolutely hate it when I go to anything where I am expected to join a group and work together on anything.
I'm not broken. I don't feel sad or like I've been left out. Don't feel sorry for me. Just nod and smile and let me go about my business.
Alysia
> broken and need fixed. ==My husband and I recently attended a personality workshop through his work. He was required to go and it was supposed to be for couples so I went also. It's called The Four Lenses and is basically the same as Meyers-Briggs, just simplified.
After answering a few questions and doing a few exercises, everyone gets put into one of four color categories. Then we were all split up into our respective groups. I was the only person in my color category. As everyone was moving around to join their groups, one of the leaders of the workshop told everyone not to worry about the lone green (or whatever color I was) because that was just how greens like it.
He was absolutely correct. I thought it was very cool that I was in a group unto myself. I did not want to join any of the other groups. I prefer to be by myself, to work by myself. I absolutely hate it when I go to anything where I am expected to join a group and work together on anything.
I'm not broken. I don't feel sad or like I've been left out. Don't feel sorry for me. Just nod and smile and let me go about my business.
Alysia
supermom123459
It is important to respect what makes the kids happy. If they are forced outside of their comfort zone, they wont trust that their opinions are important.
It is good that they like hanging out with each other. It is better than fighting all the time.
It is good that they like hanging out with each other. It is better than fighting all the time.
Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp
-=- My husband and I recently attended a personality workshop through his work. -=-
If anyone is curious about the Myers-Briggs personality test, you can do a simplistic quiz at this website to get an idea of what your personality type may be: www.motherstyles.com
The actual Myers-Briggs test is much longer and not free. Once you do the quiz, you get your personality type and a description of your strengths and struggles as a mother and some tips from the MotherStyle book.
Rippy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If anyone is curious about the Myers-Briggs personality test, you can do a simplistic quiz at this website to get an idea of what your personality type may be: www.motherstyles.com
The actual Myers-Briggs test is much longer and not free. Once you do the quiz, you get your personality type and a description of your strengths and struggles as a mother and some tips from the MotherStyle book.
Rippy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
>>Back to the question of joining group activities, I still have a question about my younger son, as I mentioned in my original post. I truly believe he'd enjoy playing soccer and/or t-ball with a team this fall, but when I suggested it to him, he immediately rejected the idea, though as a 6-yr-old, he doesn't actually know what it would be like. If we were not unschoolers, I would probably just sign him up anyway, and knowing him (he is athletic and a natural team-player), he'd end up really enjoying it. But since I'm trying harder to build trust, I don't want to make him go when he says he doesn't want to. It just seems a shame for him to miss out because he rejected the idea without even knowing what it entailed. Any thoughts? <<Go play soccer or t-ball with him. You don't need a team of people to find out if he likes playing it. Go to the park with a ball and play. Maybe other folks will want to play, too. It's far less overwhelming to play a game than it is to commit to a series of games and practices and someone else's tutelage and instruction and hopes and dreams and fantasies. Have fun, don't push him to enroll in a semester's worth of soccer or t-ball.
Schuyler
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Meredith
Tam <wifejuliefish@...> wrote:
It can help to bring a book or even a handheld game or laptop so that whoever needs to can take a break from people without actually having to leave. That's something I've done with Mo for years - it can help her warm up to a situation if she can kind of hide behind her thing and take her time looking around and deciding what to do and how to approach things. And then it can help be a way to extend a visit if she can read or play a game for a little while, take a break from socializing, and then go back into it.
When she was younger I'd make appologies for her and talk to people, play with the other kids maybe so they didn't end up with hurt feelings. As she's getting older, I remind her of social niceties as they come up.
---Meredith
>despite me being an introvert, and knowing the discomfort of being made to stay longer than that, when we do leave 'early' I've had a quiet voice in my mind saying "But... What if he should stay".****************
It can help to bring a book or even a handheld game or laptop so that whoever needs to can take a break from people without actually having to leave. That's something I've done with Mo for years - it can help her warm up to a situation if she can kind of hide behind her thing and take her time looking around and deciding what to do and how to approach things. And then it can help be a way to extend a visit if she can read or play a game for a little while, take a break from socializing, and then go back into it.
When she was younger I'd make appologies for her and talk to people, play with the other kids maybe so they didn't end up with hurt feelings. As she's getting older, I remind her of social niceties as they come up.
---Meredith
Meredith
"mrsmakeen" <mrsmakeen@...> wrote:
Is it possible for him to watch kids play and practice before signing up? Sometimes watching without being stuck in the middle, having to participate, can make all the difference. If you sign up, are you out a bunch of money if you quit after a couple weeks? Or is there a grace period where you can just try things out?
If it's possible to do some watching, I'd be sure to watch some practices, not just games. The difference between practice and playing a game can be a serious deal-breaker for some people (kids or adults!).
---Meredith
>I truly believe he'd enjoy playing soccer and/or t-ball with a team this fall, but when I suggested it to him, he immediately rejected the idea, though as a 6-yr-old, he doesn't actually know what it would be like.****************
Is it possible for him to watch kids play and practice before signing up? Sometimes watching without being stuck in the middle, having to participate, can make all the difference. If you sign up, are you out a bunch of money if you quit after a couple weeks? Or is there a grace period where you can just try things out?
If it's possible to do some watching, I'd be sure to watch some practices, not just games. The difference between practice and playing a game can be a serious deal-breaker for some people (kids or adults!).
---Meredith
Tam
Sent from my iPhone
On 13 Aug 2012, at 01:10, "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> Tam <wifejuliefish@...> wrote:
> >despite me being an introvert, and knowing the discomfort of being made to stay longer than that, when we do leave 'early' I've had a quiet voice in my mind saying "But... What if he should stay".
> ****************
> Meredith wrote
> >It can help to bring a book or even a handheld game or laptop so that whoever needs to can take a break from people without actually having to leave.
>
>
Most definitely! We find the iPhone so great for this, he'll often play with it when we arrive somewhere while he adjusts to the situation, and sometimes to take a break from people too. We also take bubbles which he often gets out when he's ready to start socialising, blowing bubbles makes a good ice breaking activity from being on his own to people joining in with the bubbles and then to him playing with them.
Tam
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
==I truly believe he'd enjoy playing soccer and/or t-ball with a team this fall, but when I suggested it to him, he immediately rejected the idea, though as a 6-yr-old, he doesn't actually know what it would be like.==
My 5 year old is very outgoing and energetic and loves to be with other people. He's always on the go. He is finally old enough this year to play some organized sports through our city. When we went to sign his older brother up for baseball, I asked if he'd like to play. He immediately said, "No." I was shocked. I was sure he'd want to. He has watched his older brother play basketball and baseball so he has some idea of how it works. He just doesn't want to play yet. His older brother didn't ask to play sports until he was 7. So, maybe regardless of when programs start, many kids aren't ready until they older no matter how much they seem to like sports.
Alysia
My 5 year old is very outgoing and energetic and loves to be with other people. He's always on the go. He is finally old enough this year to play some organized sports through our city. When we went to sign his older brother up for baseball, I asked if he'd like to play. He immediately said, "No." I was shocked. I was sure he'd want to. He has watched his older brother play basketball and baseball so he has some idea of how it works. He just doesn't want to play yet. His older brother didn't ask to play sports until he was 7. So, maybe regardless of when programs start, many kids aren't ready until they older no matter how much they seem to like sports.
Alysia
K Pennell
Every day in the summer my 9 year old wants to play baseball or wiffle ball. My husband and I play with him. He has no interest in joining an official program (we did ask if he wanted to sign up), but loves playing with us. We make up new rules with ghost runners and ghost basemen, so we can make it work with the three of us. Wouldn't trade it; we've had so much fun together.
--- On Mon, 8/13/12, keetry <keetry@...> wrote:
From: keetry <keetry@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Joining Group Activities
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, August 13, 2012, 8:49 AM
==I truly believe he'd enjoy playing soccer and/or t-ball with a team this fall, but when I suggested it to him, he immediately rejected the idea, though as a 6-yr-old, he doesn't actually know what it would be like.==
My 5 year old is very outgoing and energetic and loves to be with other people. He's always on the go. He is finally old enough this year to play some organized sports through our city. When we went to sign his older brother up for baseball, I asked if he'd like to play. He immediately said, "No." I was shocked. I was sure he'd want to. He has watched his older brother play basketball and baseball so he has some idea of how it works. He just doesn't want to play yet. His older brother didn't ask to play sports until he was 7. So, maybe regardless of when programs start, many kids aren't ready until they older no matter how much they seem to like sports.
Alysia
------------------------------------
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