always.october

I'll post them separately -- in fact, it's so late I'll probably only get around to one of them.

Background -- I've been homeschooling for ten years. I've visited and revisited the idea of unschooling many times. In some ways it seemed a natural for us -- my husband and I have always felt that we should respect our children's innate individual timetables. But we lived in a high-regulation state, and while I know there were unschoolers there, I wasn't brave enough to try it. So we used an eclectic approach (a little classical, a little Charlotte Mason, some textbooks, some subjects with no structure and just pure enjoyment). Two of my four kids are finished. I'm now homeschooling a 15 year old and a 13 year old (the latter has Asperger's and ADHD). Happily, we are now in a very low-regulation state, and the sky is the limit.

Okay. Here's my question (I'll ask it and then set it up): where did I go wrong?

I tried very hard, even before we were homeschooling, to create a learning environment in our home. We have TONS -- probably thousands and thousands -- of books on every subject. They range from children's books to scholarly works. We have a piano, a guitar, a flute, and a mountain dulcimer (not to mention a couple of recorders). We have art supplies galore. We have a microscope and a telescope. We have games, puzzles, timelines, fine art prints, maps, a globe, atlases. We have a writing corner. If it's educational, we have it. I didn't just create this environment for my kids -- I also did it for me, because that's the kind of home I want to have. I am an enthusiastic learner and have become even more so in the years we've homeschooled. Every resource we have is easily accessible, and the kids have seen it all in use.

So why do they seem to gravitate toward the computer and the DVD player?

I thought that if I provided the background, the materials, that their natural curiosity would lead them to all the treasures I've put around them. But now, I'm looking back and thinking that maybe I shouldn't have left it to chance. Maybe I should have required them to do certain things instead of waiting around for it to happen.

(I don't want to give the impression that all the books have gone unread and all the resources have gone unused. We have used them in the course of our homeschooling, and there has also been some casual independent interest. My 13 year old is a phenomenal artist, but he likes to draw only with black marker -- the oil pastels and pastel chalks don't get touched. If Lego creations and computer skill count, my kids are geniuses. But they have not begun to scratch the surface of the oppotunities here, and I fear that they never will.

So tell me ... why did my hands-off approach fail? Was it because it was doomed to fail when used in conjuntion with more traditional schooling? This has really been gnawing at me.

Lucy

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 27, 2012, at 2:48 AM, always.october wrote:

> where did I go wrong?


What if your husband filled the shelves with classic literature, but you preferred science fiction and he asked his buddies "Where did I go wrong?"

What if your husband cooked gourmet Indian cuisine, but you preferred simple foods and he asked an online cooking group, "Where did I go wrong?"

> I thought that if I provided the background, the materials, that their natural curiosity would lead them to all the treasures I've put around them.


So you didn't really want children. You wanted apprentices who have the same tastes and interests that you do to follow in your footsteps.

> But now, I'm looking back and thinking that maybe I shouldn't have left it to chance.
> Maybe I should have required them to do certain things instead of waiting around for it to happen.

If your husband had made you read classic literature rather than that trashy science fiction, eaten his gourmet meals, regardless of your own likes and dislikes, would it have felt like he was loving who you were or some ideal wife he wanted to create?

> So tell me ... why did my hands-off approach fail?


It failed because you expected them to be variations on you rather than who they are.

It failed because you've assumed that what you love is what is best so therefore everyone would value it too if given the chance.

> my husband and I have always felt that we should respect our children's innate individual timetables

But you didn't want to respect their innate tastes and preferences. You can't love someone fully if you can't accept that what they love in life is a big part of who they are. What if your husband wanted your tastes to be different from what they are? Would it feel like he loved you or feel like he wanted you to change into some ideal that he could love?

My husband doesn't like Shakespeare. He prefers football. Even though I don't like following football, it makes me really happy that he enjoys it so much. It makes me happy to see him enjoying life and finding pleasure in what he loves. :-) And I really appreciate that he is supportive and enjoys when I write and draw and help unschoolers even though he doesn't do any of those.

> If Lego creations and computer skill count, my kids are geniuses.
> But they have not begun to scratch the surface of the opportunities
> here, and I fear that they never will.

Whenever someone who has found great joy in a non-mainstream career -- like comic book artist, like rock musician -- says "My parents always supported me," with a big grin, it gives me the warm fuzzes. :-)

Whenever someone is weary of where they've ended up and says, "I always wanted to be a musician but my parents wanted me to be practical and go into business," it's just crushing that parents can't see how crushing their need to "give their kids the best" can be.

Right now my daughter is into heavy metal music, working as a telemarketer, living outside of Detroit. None of that is what any loving parent would pre-plan for her child to be. But she's having a blast. And I LOVE that she's enjoying life so much. :-) It gives me big warm fuzzes :-) Maybe because my ideal was that she be happy in life, not that she be anything other than who she is.

Can you find it in you to do the same for your kids? Can you move into your kids' worlds and see through their eyes to see what they love in what they do? Can you find the enjoyment in what they are doing even if it isn't something you enjoy for yourself?

Joyce

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Sandra Dodd

-=-. I'm now homeschooling a 15 year old and a 13 year old (the latter has Asperger's and ADHD). Happily, we are now in a very low-regulation state, and the sky is the limit.-=-

The sky might be the limit, but your kids are almost grown, so your ability to soar is somewhat limited.

From my house I can see a mountain. The top of it is two miles above sea level. The sky, from there, is not as high as the sky at sea level. The air is already getting thin.

-=-Okay. Here's my question (I'll ask it and then set it up): where did I go wrong?-=-

I'm going to give an answer before I read the rest of the post, because there are thousands of people who might see this. Rather than sift through the details of one family's failure to unschool, I want to say something general.

People don't have forever. You can't go back and unschool a child from the beginning once he has been taught by his parents that teaching is required, and good, and necessary.

There is no kind-of unschooling, or partial unschooling, if the goal is a life full of joyful and effortless learning.

I will go back and read the rest of the post, but I want to put these links out for the benefit of people whose faces I can't see, who are reading quietly and won't even respond.

http://sandradodd.com/doit
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/difference.html
http://sandradodd.com/unschool/marginal.html

All those pages have other links. They're not everything I would like to have given someone ten years ago who needed help.

Oh� I have been giving those ideas to people for over ten years. :-)

Sandra

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Lucy's web

On 27 Jul 2012, at 08:48, always.october wrote:

> My 13 year old is a phenomenal artist, but he likes to draw only with black marker -- the oil pastels and pastel chalks don't get touched. If Lego creations and computer skill count, my kids are geniuses. But they have not begun to scratch the surface of the oppotunities here, and I fear that they never will.


My husband - who is a professional artist/sculptor and financially supports our family with his art - would probably envy the freedom with which your 13 year old creates. Surely there is plenty of time for him/her to learn to use the oils and pastels (if he/she wants to) later on? Personally I can't see how forcing them to use the materials you deem most appropriate for "art" fosters and nurtures their creativity.

This kind of thought occurred to me all through reading your post, but I've only commented on the art bit, because that's what struck me the most.

My parents turned off any interest I had in music by only allowing me to learn in a formal way. Apparently I was a "promising" pianist when I was younger. I haven't touched a piano in 30 years.

(another) Lucy


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Sandra Dodd

-=- We have TONS -- probably thousands and thousands -- of books on every subject. They range from children's books to scholarly works-=-

http://sandradodd.com/bookandsax

-=- We have a piano, a guitar, a flute, and a mountain dulcimer (not to mention a couple of recorders). We have art supplies galore. We have a microscope and a telescope.-=-

My husband and I play recorder pretty well. I performed a Telemann Sonata (duet, not with harpsichord and viola da gamba, but I was about to that point when I was 20) once. But in the everyday sort of musicality, we can play by ear, and I can harmonize. We can both read music and have performed Renaissance dance music as background and for live dancers (with other musicians, and occasionally one of us alone, in a pinch).

None of our children plays recorder, but they know it to be a possibility in life, and something that's fun.

I hope you or your husband play piano, guitar, flue, dulcimer and recorder, for your own enjoyment, at least, and where your children can hear it! I hope you don't just have instruments lying around making you feel that your children are lazy duds for not learning to play them.

I was speaking at a conference last year, and a question was asked second-hand by a mother, on behalf of a father who wasn't there. I think, literally, he had phoned it in--he asked her by phone to ask me the question. It was whether they shouldn't make a child learn an instrument. "What instrument does he play?" I asked. Lots of people in the audience laughed, and the answer was that he did not, as an adult, play any instrument.

Well, then.
Is reading books something adults should make children do?
Is playing an instrument something adults should make children do?

Or in your case, you didn't make them. You laid the materials out, and now you're quite disappointed that they didn't spontaneously do what, in your mind, adults should make children do. Even worse. They failed a test they didn't know you were proctoring, all those years.

-=-We have games, puzzles, timelines, fine art prints, maps, a globe, atlases.-=-

Do you play games regularly? Is there a puzzle out on a table in your house now?

Keith and Marty and I played a game last night that Claire Darbaud gave me when I was in France. I couldn't answer their questions about the rules (which were there, but in French). Marty knew how to find discussions of rules, and found not a translation, but a discussion of the way that game works, and what its English or American counterpart is, and so we learned the game and learned about the game, and had a great time.

Puzzles lead to discussions.
http://sandradodd.com/truck

-=-We have a writing corner. If it's educational, we have it.-=-

I write every single day. My kids write in course of a week, various ways. Kirby writes as part of his work. Marty is taking college classes and writes papers, and writes on facebook sometimes, and there's writing involved in some of the role-playing he does. Holly wrote a song last week, and called me and sang it to me, and then sang it again asking me to transcribe the lyrics, because she was in Montana and had written it while riding on the bakc of a motorcycle, singing it over and over to herself. That was writing, even though she had no pen. She said if I hadn't answered the phone, she had planned to sing it to the answering machine at the house, which would've preserved it for later. I wish she had, because I couldn't transcribe the tune.

I used to teach writing.
What good is a "writing corner"? It seems to suggest writing shouldn't take place other places.

-=-If it's educational, we have it.-=-

You didn't mention the internet, or DVDs, recorded music or video games, in your description of the resources you're proud to have provided. So your list of "educational" things was ended, you began a new paragraph, and wrote this:

-=-So why do they seem to gravitate toward the computer and the DVD player?-=-

BECAUSE THEY WANT TO LEARN.

You gave them 1970's materials.
They want 21st century materials.

-=-I thought that if I provided the background, the materials, that their natural curiosity would lead them to all the treasures I've put around them. But now, I'm looking back and thinking that maybe I shouldn't have left it to chance. Maybe I should have required them to do certain things instead of waiting around for it to happen. -=-

Before, unschooling wasn't working because you yourself were not doing enough with each individual child.
Now, unschooling won't work beause you are moving away from it in a whole different direction.

By calling your list of resources "treasures," you give away a huge wad of judgmentalism. You have divided the world into valuable treasures (microcopes and dulcimers) and then the evil other. Computer and DVD.

If you have not used a microscope or played a dulcimer in the past month, you're a hypocrite.

-=-My 13 year old is a phenomenal artist, but he likes to draw only with black marker -- the oil pastels and pastel chalks don't get touched.-=-

Why don't you use the pastels and chalks yourself?
Or give them away to another family whose mother doesn't understand why her child has no interest in the treasures and art supplies she has provided, but who might love pastels.

Sandra




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Sandra Dodd

With this, I will have responded to the whole post, even though I broke it into three e-mails. :-) Those WERE big questions!!

-=- If Lego creations and computer skill count, my kids are geniuses. But -=-

I was at Legoland in England lately, and Lego creations certainly count there.
Computer use and repair and creation and education certainly "count" in the world.

When you wrote "my kids are geniuses," it didn't feel like actual positive regard. It sounded sarcastic, disappointed, resentful. It sounded like an insult. If you feel that way about your children, then one huge aspect of unschooling is missing: a strong relationship.

This might help:
http://sandradodd.com/friends
I'm in the process of being interviewed for a blog in India, and I quoted from Pam Sorooshian's part of that page just this morning. (I'm up way early, I know…)



-=-But they have not begun to scratch the surface of the oppotunities here, and I fear that they never will.-=-

Is it possible you focussed too much on the "home" in "homeschooling"?
Your post was way more about books and musical instruments than it was about your children.

Perhaps they have "scratched the surface" (as meagre as that sounds) of things they have found elsewhere than in your house. Maybe they have still managed to learn, even though in your cost/benefit ledger they have wasted your money and their lives.


-=-So tell me ... why did my hands-off approach fail? Was it because it was doomed to fail when used in conjuntion with more traditional schooling? This has really been gnawing at me.-=-

I could be offended that you've come to this discussion to ask that question. I'm not, but there's an inherent insult in it.

The Always Learning list is 11 years old. We could have helped you 11 years ago. But nobody would have recommende a "hands-0ff approach." We would have recommended joyfully shared activities, the creation and maintenance of a peaceful, busy life of shared exploration and learning, including the computer and DVDs.

-=-So tell me ... why did my hands-off approach fail? Was it because it was doomed to fail when used in conjuntion with more traditional schooling? This has really been gnawing at me.-=-
Unschooling doesn't work as a part-time or "extra-curricular" activity. True. But unschooling is not hands-off. And you didnt' HAVE a "hands off approach" if you also used "a little classical, a little Charlotte Mason, some textbooks, some subjects"

What happens when a family sets a few subjects aside is that they say to their children clearly, physically and emotionally, that math is important. Crucial. But science and history aren't important. Reading is IMPORTANT. But music and art… eh.

Sandra

Rachel

Part of unschooling is about accepting that your child is not you. They
are their own person, with their own thoughts and ideas of what is fun and
exciting to them. Kids do have a tendency to enjoy what their parents
enjoy, but only mainly because they see the parents having so much fun!
But as soon as it becomes a requirement ... forget about it. Kids are
smart. You may not feel like you are "requiring" them to enjoy the
"treasures" you have left around, but in some way you are. Else you
wouldn't be here asking the question because you wouldn't have an
attachment to that stuff and their enjoyment of it.


====I don't want to give the impression that all the books have gone unread
and all the resources have gone unused. We have used them in the course of
our homeschooling,====

It may very well be the fact that this stuff was used in a more regimented
homeschooling way that is turning them off to it. Even though you see it
as fun stuff, they may see it as stuff that is (or was) used for a certain
time of day, when mom requires it. And why would they want to use it on
their own when they will be required to use it anyway? Just saying you
aren't required to use it anymore, doesn't change the trepidation they
have. They are afraid you will require it again. And it sounds like they
might be right.

During my public school years, I was a voracious reader. My mom would take
me to the library when I was in 6th grade and I would pick out 4 or 5
chapter books and I would have them all read within a week. I didn't watch
TV, I read. I loved reading. I would pick reading over almost anything
else, always. But as soon as I was required to read a book for school.
Forget about it. I didn't want to read it, and more often than not, I
didn't read it at all. It became tedious for me. The books for school
were no different than the ones I was choosing for myself (I had read Gone
with the Wind on my own in 6th grade!), but just the fact that there was
now some sort of requirement, made me disinterested beyond belief. I
cannot tell you how many book reports I wrote without ever having read the
book, which just seems silly from someone who could read an entire chapter
book in a day, but there it was. Do not underestimate the power of
requirements. The effect they have on people are very strong.


===Happily, we are now in a very low-regulation state, and the sky is the
limit.===

Even though you felt you were more hands off than most traditional
homeschoolers, you never really were an unschooler. You still sat the kids
down and required them to do something. They now have this impression of
learning & school, like it or not. It sounds you are fairly new to
unschooling in it's entirety. I would allow some time for deschooling, I
would allow time for your kids to stop viewing the books and activities as
part of school. I would allow them time to find their own interests.
Perhaps the computer and video games are their passion. And what of it? I
have a really good friend that just got a job at Blizzard within the last
couple days. All his friends and family seemed to be excited for him.
They didn't seem to mind that that was where his passion for gaming led
him. What if he had been forced to read story books and draw pictures
instead of playing video games or absorbing the computer? What if his
parents had envisioned a life of drawing comic books for him? (Ya know
because that's a fun alternative job.) Where would he be today? Probably
not working at Blizzard or a comic book company. Probably wandering around
aimlessly like most people are, trying to spend their adult years
reclaiming the passion they were never allowed to have as a kid.


===If it's educational, we have it.===

And what would you deem not educational? I can't seem to touch anything or
go anywhere without learning something. This is why Sandra's "Learn
Nothing Day" is so silly. Can you really go a whole day without learning
something? Why does something have to be labeled "educational" before it
is deemed worthy of being absorbed in my brain? Learning to walk is
useless because I was never tested on it, learning to cook was trivial
then, learning to balance my checkbook hardly seems worth the effort.
Years ago I used my computer knowledge to learn how to create an online
forum. I learned to make it into a thriving community, one with a lot of
daily visitors. A few years later, I learned how to negotiate a sale of
this community. A sale that was the catalyst for allowing me to stay home
with my son, allowing my family to live the way we had always wanted to.
But none of this was really worth the effort because it was something I
learned to do on the computer. And the computer can't be educational
right? You cannot predict the future, you never know where a skill will
lead someone or how it will help them in adulthood. Why limit their
choices?

As Joyce stated, if the end result of your kids becoming adults is that
they are happy, not that they are prepared for X job, then the perspective
changes rather quickly. You need to sit with them and see why these things
make them happy, understand it, play with them, revel in their joy. Only
beneficial things can come from doing this and maybe you'll find you enjoy
it just as much as they do.

Rachel


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Sandra Dodd

-=- This is why Sandra's "Learn
Nothing Day" is so silly. Can you really go a whole day without learning
something? -=-

You mean "why Sandra's Learn Nothing Day is so profoundly revealing," didn't you? :-)

Sandra Dodd

-=- I
have a really good friend that just got a job at Blizzard within the last
couple days. All his friends and family seemed to be excited for him.
They didn't seem to mind that that was where his passion for gaming led
him.-=-

My oldest son has worked at Blizzard since he was 20 years old. His 26th birthday is on Sunday. It's a good job.

-=-What if his
parents had envisioned a life of drawing comic books for him? (Ya know
because that's a fun alternative job.) Where would he be today? Probably
not working at Blizzard or a comic book company.-=-

Is he an artist at Blizzard? If so, very cool.

When children can choose to draw because they want to, then they are powerful artists.

When a child is "forced to draw" (whatever that could mean, really) and pressed to "do art," then his power is gone. And art is gone.

Sandra

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Meredith

"always.october" <always.october@...> wrote:
>> So tell me ... why did my hands-off approach fail? Was it because it was doomed to fail when used in conjuntion with more traditional schooling?
***************

That's a big part of it, in more than one way. You drew a big, dark line between learning and fun and expected the kids to develop a "love of learning" - but at the same time, the line gets in the way of your seeing the real learning they are doing every day.

>> So why do they seem to gravitate toward the computer and the DVD player?

Because real learning often looks like fun - it looks like people playing around with hobbies and following interests. Your kids interests aren't the same as yours, maybe in part because you made them unpalatable, but in large part because they're not you.

>>> I thought that if I provided the background, the materials, that their natural curiosity would lead them to all the treasures I've put around them.
**************

It did! you just didn't notice because you were looking the other way. Have you read Sandra's analogy of the torque wrench? It's here:
http://sandradodd.com/seeingit

>>My 13 year old is a phenomenal artist, but he likes to draw only with black marker -- the oil pastels and pastel chalks don't get touched.
***************

Why is that bad? He's found a medium he likes. That may change, or it may not. There are origami artists who never move beyond one sheet of paper, no cuts. There are glass artists who never include other media in their glass work. There are fiber artists who Only knit, or Only do hand quilting. My partner works Only with electric guitars.

You provide materials, but people choose what appeals to them. Not all the wonderful stuff you find and offer will be used. Lately I bought a kind of drawing tool for the computer, since my daughter loves to draw on the computer and I wanted to offer her something beyond the mouse. Turns out she prefers the mouse because it produces the kinds of big heavy lines she likes at the moment. The other tool is better for sketching or painting and that's not what she wants to do... right now. Artists' interests and techniques can change and lately her paper and pencil drawings aren't using the same kinds of lines as before - maybe she'll get into the new tool. Maybe not.

One of the "fake outs" of schools is that kids are often thrilled to explore new materials because a classroom is pretty empty. In a rich, full home, kids have more choices so they make more choices out of personal interest and less out of "oh, thank god, something New and Different!"

>> If Lego creations and computer skill count, my kids are geniuses.

How sad that you don't value their genius. I'll tell you a story.

I was a smart kid, good in school and at schooly things and my parents were justly proud. They encouraged me in my academic pursuits... but my real passion wasn't in that direction, it was in making things with my hands. They didn't value that, so it was poo-pooed as an amusing hobby I would hopefully grow out of at any moment. I trusted them and their assurances that it was more important to pursue my academics and set my goals accordingly. In college I did well and got into a really nice lab as an undergrad - I was on the fast track to having my name on a good paper before I got my BS, which would set me up nicely to get into a good grad program yada yada yada. Then I realized the job I loved best in the lab was being done professionally by a woman with nothing more than a high school diploma. I looked around and realized I still loved to work with my hands, loved it far far more than all the rest. I felt cheated and lost. With the best of intentions, my parents had nudged me away from my passions.


>>But they have not begun to scratch the surface of the oppotunities here, and I fear that they never will.
************

It sounds like you're saying they'll fail to live up to their potential. That's a saying which haunts me.

---Meredith

Rachel

===You mean "why Sandra's Learn Nothing Day is so profoundly revealing,"
didn't you? :-)===

Yes! This year was my first official "Learn Nothing Day" experience and
when you first mentioned it, I kind of chuckled. Then I stopped and really
thought about it. I read the responses people gave in fun mocking about
not going here or there because they might *gasp* learn something. It was
silly and funny and it struck a cord with me. I know learning is
everywhere, I have always known that on some level, and I was quick to
embrace that fully when we embraced unschooling, but the absurdity of
"Learn Nothing Day" really brought it to light for me. Of course it would
be impossible to actually learn *nothing* in a day. Which I believe is the
point of the day, and thus it had its expected impact on me. :)

Rachel


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Pam Laricchia

<< So why do they seem to gravitate toward the computer and the DVD player? >>

Because they really enjoy, and are learning a lot from, the activities they are finding through them.

<< So tell me ... why did my hands-off approach fail? Was it because it was doomed to fail when used in conjunction with more traditional schooling?
This has really been gnawing at me. >>

Want to try reframe that question? There's a good chance that unschooling is working pretty well - from your children's point-of-view. It's only your
perspective that's judging it a failure.

Maybe instead ask yourself "Why am I not seeing all the learning they ARE doing?"

You've created one kind of learning environment and are judging any kind of activity outside of that as "not learning". If you're interested in seeing
life and learning through their perspective, spend time *with* them, doing the things they enjoy (and are learning from), instead of staring longingly
at the idle supplies you've purchased over the years.

There's also a good chance they've picked up on your love of those books, instruments, art supplies etc, and your judgment of those as the only real
learning tools in the house, and are avoiding them purposely now because the question of learning has become a bit of a power struggle between you and
them. If you can expand your definition of learning, drop the "special status" those supplies have in your eyes, and really appreciate the tools your
kids *are* drawn to, that power struggle can fade away.

Pam



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in4mkaren

My 10 yo son's reaction to Learn Nothing Day was priceless! When I told him that yesterday was Learn Nothing Day, he said, "What?!" with this look on his face that I wish I'd saved. Then I said, "Isn't it sad that we failed so miserably at learning nothing?" He grinned. His schooled cousin sitting next to him said, "I've been learning nothing all summer," so we explained to him that you can't ever really learn nothing. The contrast between their reactions was very telling. I was so proud, delighted, and, I'm ashamed to say, surprised that my unschooled son recognized the irony of Learn Nothing Day instantly. Thanks!

Karen W.

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- This is why Sandra's "Learn
> Nothing Day" is so silly. Can you really go a whole day without learning
> something? -=-
>
> You mean "why Sandra's Learn Nothing Day is so profoundly revealing," didn't you? :-)
>

CarenKH

I may be off-base here, but it sounds like, rather than wanting the kids to be like you, you wanted them to be BETTER than you - or, better than you perceive yourself, anyway.

Do you play the instruments? Sing? Read the books? Play the games? What is YOUR passion, your enjoyment? Because from the way you've written things, it sounds like you had lots of things available, but they were there, separate from you.

When we first started unschooling, I did have a vision in my head of "perfect" unschooling or homeschooling kids. They'd play musical instruments, have deep talks about philosophical subjects, read the classics, plan their own path of learning, which would include lots of nature, science, classical artists...

I have no idea why that picture was in my head, but it seems like a lot of homeschooling articles at that time played into that vision as well. "Perfect" kids, "perfect" days filled with questions about schooly-type things, that the parents would lovingly answer, as their other children played baroque music on authentic old-time instruments.

(OK, that's an exaggeration, but... not *too far* from what I imagined.)

I don't remember when I dropped that "vision", but thank goodness it was very early on. I think part of me was thinking the kids could have opportunities that I never did, that they'd be better, more improved versions of me. They'd play the piano because that's what accomplished kids did, right? I wasn't "accomplished" like that, but they would be. At the end of homeschooling, they'd end up being like the rich kids from my school, (like I couldn't be) only better because they wouldn't have to go through school to get there.

That was not in the front of my consciousness, but it was definitely there. I'm so grateful we were unschooling a very short time when I realized the vision was there, and dropped it in favor of being with the people who were right here in front of me, who loved SpongeBob and didn't want to play music because it hurt his ears, and who thought (still thinks) fart jokes are the epitome of humor.

Not that those are exclusive, the "classical" interests and SpongeBob and fart jokes.

It sounds like you had a vision all these years, only you weren't aware you had that vision until your kids "failed" to meet it.

Take a deep breath. More than one. Enjoy your kids' interests. Find out, if you don't already know, what they're doing on the computer. Find things that are related or similar, that they might enjoy, and bring those to them, or see if they want to go do related things - cons, meetups, etc.

Be with the people in front of you.

And - be with yourself. A big part of my unschooling journey has been accepting and appreciating who I am and what I bring to the table, even though I'm not the rich girls from my high school who had everything.

Find what's in your kids' lives - and your life - to love, right now. Then love it.

peace,
Caren

in4mkaren

>>>> There's also a good chance they've picked up on your love of those books, instruments, art supplies etc, and your judgment of those as the only real learning tools in the house, and are avoiding them purposely now because the question of learning has become a bit of a power struggle between you and them. If you can expand your definition of learning, drop the "special status" those supplies have in your eyes, and really appreciate the tools your kids *are* drawn to, that power struggle can fade away.<<<<

This has been true for us. And they haven't always come back around and picked up the things I thought would be good, but I've learned to give that up. I've cut way back on buying things unless I want them for my interest or I can tell they're developing more than a casual interest. At a previous stage I'd jump the gun way too early, then they'd feel like I was pushing them, and stop being interested, or just naturally stop being interested. We use the library and borrow friends' things way more now.

My tendency to over-collect may also be why I started viewing strewing suspiciously. Spending money on educational things, valuing them more than what my children choose, and feeling bad when they don't like them is not strewing. Worrying over not giving them enough educational resources also hasn't helped. We each have very different and personal ideas of what's "educational," and I've learned to be ok with that and back off.

It may be too late to unschool your kids from the beginning, but it's never too late to start working on your relationship, even with the older ones. God willing, you'll have a long life together still and like them you're still learning too. Saying "Hey! I've realized that I've been valuing my preferences over yours... Now I've learned.... Sorry. " or whatever might go a long way. It's helped a lot with my son and I. It's hard to hear how you've hurt someone, but he feels so much more connected when I apologize and listen. And yes, I still catch myself wanting things my way, so I do it again as much as needed.

Blessings on your journey,

Karen W.

Sandra Dodd

Karen,

I've saved what you wrote. Your son knows something that many homeschooling parents don't--that learning and life CAN be separated, with enough enforced separation and schooling--but that it improves neither on learning nor on life.

I think I'll use something like that on Just Add Light tonight. :-)

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=-My tendency to over-collect may also be why I started viewing strewing suspiciously. Spending money on educational things, valuing them more than what my children choose, and feeling bad when they don't like them is not strewing. Worrying over not giving them enough educational resources also hasn't helped. We each have very different and personal ideas of what's "educational," and I've learned to be ok with that and back off.-=-

"Interesting things" was in the original strewing description. Not educational things. And rarely, at our house, were they things we spent money on, or if so more likely from a yard sale or thrift store. They were found things, usually. Sometimes found in the top of my closet or in the shed.

I'm defensive of the idea of strewing because it is extremely valuable, and I don't want people to be discouraged or misled in that area, if possible.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

The saying that haunts me is: 'underachiever.' I guess kids can be
underachievers as homeschoolers as much as at school if their parents look
more at what they don't do than at what they do.

Gave me nearly a lifetime of feeling like nothing I did was ever enough
even though I was extremely successful in many ways.

I was in my 40's and unschooling with my kids when I started to get over
it. (I'm 60 now. Over it.)

-pam

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 5:10 AM, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:

> >>But they have not begun to scratch the surface of the oppotunities here,
> and I fear that they never will.
> ************
>
> It sounds like you're saying they'll fail to live up to their potential.
> That's a saying which haunts me.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

BRIAN POLIKOWSKY

 

 
"Interesting things" was in the original strewing description. Not educational things. And rarely, at our house, were they things we spent money on, or if so more likely from a yard sale or thrift store. They were found things, usually. Sometimes found in the top of my closet or in the shed.

I'm defensive of the idea of strewing because it is extremely valuable, and I don't want people to be discouraged or misled in that area, if possible.



-=-=-=-=-=-

I collect things. I found a microscope at the thrift store I get it and we play with it ( I do ) or not. A barn swallow nest ( super cool) and I bring them home.
I collect all kind of things and so far the huge majority have been things found or bought very very cheap. 
I have them around or in our office available for the kids. 
My son used to draw a lot on the composition books I buy at back to school. I do not think he does that anymore but they are available to him.
Gigi has a sewing kit that we add things too and she uses a lot. One day MD used to sew some holes in the chair cover. That was the only time he used it but cool.
My kids feel totally free to use or not things that we have around.
Computers, video games and Youtube are huge for my son. I just gave him a new headset with soe coupons I had for OfficeMax. That is what is important to him.

Alex Polikowsky

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Tam

'Overachiever' came into this same category for me, it was never meant in a positive way. The two together send a clear message to children that there's an exactly correct amount of learning, about an approved and defined set of information, that is acceptable and right for everyone, and anything outside of this in either direction makes you somehow defective. I love that my children haven't come across that concept, and learn the exact right amount for each of them, about the things that light them up.


Tam

www.sprout-and-squidge.blogspot.co.uk

On 27 Jul 2012, at 16:20, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:

> The saying that haunts me is: 'underachiever.' I guess kids can be
> underachievers as homeschoolers as much as at school if their parents look
> more at what they don't do than at what they do.
>
> Gave me nearly a lifetime of feeling like nothing I did was ever enough
> even though I was extremely successful in many ways.
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

And in addition to strewing interesting things, we unschooling parents
should be strewing interesting ideas, too. (Those are definitely free.)

-pam

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 8:34 AM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:

> I'm defensive of the idea of strewing because it is extremely valuable,
> and I don't want people to be discouraged or misled in that area, if
> possible.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- I love that my children haven't come across that concept, and learn the exact right amount for each of them, about the things that light them up.-=-

Tam, you're right. There's no "just right" at school. Everyone is marked with the reason they need to change.

Parents can do that kind of damage at home. It's good when deschooling enables parents to see schoolishness from a different angle. Parents who reject school and never think of it again are as hampered as those who keep trying to look for schoolishness. Without sorting through their own memories and experiences, they're living in a reactionary and negative way.

Sandra

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Robert and Colleen

> ****"Interesting things" was in the original strewing description. Not educational things. And rarely, at our house, were they things we spent money on, or if so more likely from a yard sale or thrift store. They were found things, usually. Sometimes found in the top of my closet or in the shed.****
>


Yesterday, a neighbor offered me something that looks sort of like a cross between a bell and a gong, a stand to hang it from, and a mallet. It was interesting and I figured we'd find some sort of use for it, so I accepted :-)

I brought it home and put it on the coffee table.

In the less than 24 hours it's been in the house, my 9 year old has:
Experimented with the different sounds it can make (soft hits, hard hits, hit in different places)
Used it to call us all to attention so he could announce important things (like "I'm hungry" :-))
Told our elderly friend about it, and in turn checked out the links she sent to websites that have photos of gongs that are bigger than people, Tibetan singing bowls, etc.
Added The King and I to our Netflix queue after my mother said she thinks they use gongs to summon dancing maidens in the movie
Looked for other things in the house to bring into the living room to make it look "even more Avatar air temple and less ordinary living room" :-)
Put Avatar episodes on in the background and made up his own air-bending moves while they were on
Wondered why a mallet is called a mallet and is not called a hammer
Asked me to find the bell collection we used to have out, so he can play with the bells again

The fun (and learning, and connections) that can come from exploring one simple item can be amazing.

Not everything I bring home or get out or leave about grabs his attention in the way this has - but it's such fun when something does, and it inspires me to keep looking for more interesting things to strew about :-)


>


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Meredith

Robert and Colleen <3potatoes@...> wrote:
>> Not everything I bring home or get out or leave about grabs his attention in the way this has - but it's such fun when something does, and it inspires me to keep looking for more interesting things to strew about :-)
***************

I find sometimes things aren't interesting right away but become interesting later, especially if I re-arrange things (or clean!). A couple years ago my partner bought a bunch of Trivial Pursuit games at a yard sale, including Lord of the Rings. They've all been sitting on a shelf, gathering dust. Last week someone posted a picture of Lord of the Rings Trivial Pursuit on facebook and reminded us all its there - and we've been playing off and on all week as a result, keeping track of where we are in the game and picking it up again later.

---Meredith

sheeboo2

--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> And in addition to strewing interesting things, we unschooling parents
> should be strewing interesting ideas, too.-----

And interesting people! (if your child likes people)

Brie

Shannon Stoltz

Because I have children the same age as yours, and because I'm in the
habit of discussing life with them, my 15 year old daughter read your
email this morning and felt *strongly* that she needed to respond. She
spent the afternoon drafting this, and please forgive the grammatical,
but she really wants to encourage you down this path, but also share
with you the mindset of a 15 year old unschooled student, who has been
either eclectically homeschooled or unschooled her entire life. May
this help in your journey...

...Shannon

From my daughter Kate:

Now you have all that stuff so they can learn and explore right? Well
they should be at a point in their lives where their going to define
themselves and their interests being teens and all. So them only going
for certain things is okay. You haven't failed and your not a terrible
mother like some people would have you believe. Yes you have your faults
but then so does everyone and I'm pretty sure the rest of you tried
molding your children into a shape you like at one point or another,
hence you teaching them


A. Morals (and since everyone has their own opinion of right and wrong
you can see my point)
B. Traditions (that they may or may not want to pass on/learn)
C. Exposing them to your interests

You have a common point of view that most parents have and everyone has
pointed it out what it is, it's faulty but it's not the end of the
world.

Now you said that they have been veering towards the DVD player and the
computer, correct?

Now computer skills are very important in this period of time and will
help them a lot in life, so that's not bad and you can help them expand
their skills in that area such as if they want to go into the blogging
business or gaming or photo shop art or website building or hacking
(which is actually sought after by a lot of high ranking/paying offices
such as companies that do computers and the FBI and if they want to be
spies hacking is a good skill) or anything else computer related. In
fact you can teach how to do taxes on the computer.

I can see how your worried about them spending to much time on the
computer playing games or on facebook or whatever but you can always
learn something from anything, facebook presents social circles and
communication which is KEY in any social environment. And while computer
games with fighting and level ups and war may seem totally worthless
it's actually not in fact almost all computer games present one crucial
detail and that is Strategy, tons and tons and tons of strategy
experience. The best strategists in the world are gamers, not kidding.

And concerning the DVD player it depends on what their watching and what
you think is appropriate for them and you can rent some documentaries
from netflix for them to watch (although I don't recommend making them
watch documentaries any more than one at a time Once a day MAX) and try
finding cool ones like how to make bombs, how they build roller
coasters, Mythbusters is always good, and anything that has stuff their
interested in.

As far as the books, the art supplies, and the music instruments go, the
fact that she prefers black markers to oils is okay. she just probably
likes the feel/style better and oils tend to make your hands feel slimy
after using them so maybe you can invest in black art pens and art is
art there are more styles than there are languages in the world so try
not to freak out.

The fact that they're not going through every book is okay too, they
have their own tastes but you said you want them to explore in
literature, so why don't you ask them their favorite genres and then
look up books in those genres and then strew them in plain sight in
their favorite reading places (Do not ever ask them to read them. That
is crucial, and don't tell them you got them for them just say you got
some more books if they ask in passing. If they persist then you can
tell them because teens don't like to be lied to but they also don't
like for you to be deciding everything for them hence partial truth) and
see if they read them.

And if your worried about if it's just Si-Fi or fantasy you'd be
surprised how much you can learn from either, I learned more about Greek
Mythology from Percy Jackson than from my greek myths books although
they made great references and the si-fi books gives a lot of
perspective on theories about space travel, alternate dimensions,
physics, and intelligent non-human life (which if your wondering it's
been in HUGE debate with scientists for the past hundred years or more
and it's good to have a back ground knowledge of it).

So down to the Musical instruments, playing an music instrument is an
art. It's something you have to love and be interested in or else it
becomes a torture device on your nerves and then you'd like nothing more
than smash it to smithereenes. And those opinions tend to form after the
point of just playing them for fun just to have musical noise. But if
either of them has a favorite musical instrument they like to play
occasionally try finding out what their favorite type of music is and
then find the music sheets for their favorite songs then strew them
around said instrument in plain sight (Now almost same principle with
the books, Do Not Ever ask them to try out the music you strew, and Do
Not tell them you got them for them unless they ask directly and answer
in the mild such as "Oh I looked it up for you since you like it you
like to listen to it" you have to put the sentence as a gift or else it
becomes a command and my example isn't that great so maybe you can think
of something better) and if they actually try playing Do Not watch at
first wait until they become more comfortable with the song and then you
can watch and give Honest compliments, feel free to be amazed BUT Don't
exaggerate and above all Do Not Under Any circumstances give them advice
on how to do it better UNLESS They Specifically ASK for It. and then you
should ONLY give it in said area and stop talking when their face
becomes bored. Now if in the case that they're not into playing music
the best thing for you to do is Accept It, I'm sorry but if they're not
into it they're not into it and forcing them to try will only create
tension which will lead to friction and then finally complete and utter
hatred of said instrument which will probably won't wear off for several
years if ever.

You have a control problem and you can admit it which in my experience
is something not a lot of people can do so congrats. So the thing you
have to come to terms is that your children are not you, even though
they have parts of you in them, so your going to have let go of your
pride, but I'm pretty sure you knew this wasn't going to be easy when
you went down this path and I'm sure the final moments of teaching your
children never are.

But the fact that you went down this path shows that although love
cookie cutter educations you were sorta willing to give it up so your
children wouldn't have to be caged and choked to death by it which I
have to say is quite admirable, even though your questions suggest that
your either have doubts or are still working on your perspective of the
whole Unschooling thing, but at least your working on it.

In another email you mentioned that you were preparing your son for
college, Now college implies what?
A. Preparing you for the Career you want.
B. A piece of paper that opens doors to well paying Jobs/security in
life
C. Giving you the knowledge you want so you can kick off your Life

Now for every person college means something different even if only
fractionally different from someone else. You seem to see it as a
security thing which it is in a way. But from that perspective will only
take someone so far. And then there the colleges themselves and just
because it's a college doesn't mean it's the right one for him. In fact
when starting out in life and actually throughout life a HUGE part of
being successful in life is doing something you love or else you slowly
degrade yourself into a hole of misery and hard sharp feelings of
regret, which come to think of it is how a lot divorces are helped
along. So anyway you see my partial point, I hope.

So are you preparing him for college or for his Career or for the Life
he wants? You seem to be doing either A or B but at least B, now if your
doing A I'm sorry but your going to have to as him what he wants to do
because this is his chance at life not yours (That was harsh i know but
it's true) and then if he doesn't do it himself (you shouldn't him ask
to either) you should look up colleges that specialize in whatever it is
and then discuss (NOT TELL HIM) with him what he would like to do and
present OPTIONS (all of which can be denied).

If B then do what everyone else does when preparing for college take the
normal classes, normal tests, look at normal community/state colleges
then send him off and tell him to get good grades and to afterward get a
normal boring desk job at some insurance firm and than he can live his
totally boring and depressing normal life (you can totally see I'm
biased against B but not against you don't worry, I can see the appeal
of survival).

And C which is like A but with a much wider range of options and is the
one I'm going to do, this option has everything that A has and applies
to someone like me. College for me will have all the things I'm
interested in Business classes, Food Science, Mechanics, whatever
language i'm on, a whole bunch of different literature classes,
chemistry, maybe physics, maybe software development, don't know my
entire life shall be an never ending series of perusing interests and
hobbies and major discoveries I fully expect to die just like Leonardo
Da Vinci halfway through a million projects. I see college as part of my
learning experience and also a piece of paper that will unlock doors
otherwise closed to me. There are also other points of view concerning
college which I'm sure other people can tell you and your family can
decide for yourselves whats the best choice.

So that's my advice, Good Luck.
- Kate

Pam Sorooshian

Please pass along to Kate -- that was a really really wonderful thing to
read. SO wonderful. I suggest and hope she will work it into an article (as
opposed to an email directed at one person) for publication. There are a
number of places I can think of that would certainly very much love to
publish it.


-pam


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Sandra Dodd

-=-You have a control problem and you can admit it which in my experience
is something not a lot of people can do so congrats. So the thing you
have to come to terms is that your children are not you, even though
they have parts of you in them, so your going to have let go of your
pride, but I'm pretty sure you knew this wasn't going to be easy when
you went down this path and I'm sure the final moments of teaching your
children never are. -=-

I liked most of Kate's writing, but because it was sent to this discussion, I'm going to point at the "have to."

"The thing you have to�"

Every time "have to" comes up in writing, speech or thought, back up two words and see it as a choice, and not a have to.

You don't "have to" do that, but your ability to make choices and to live a life of abundant gratitude will be hampered if you don't.


Sandra

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Meredith

>I'm pretty sure the rest of you tried
> molding your children into a shape you like at one point or another,

That was true when Ray was young, before I knew anything about unschooling, but it isn't true wrt my daughter. I've certainly had some fantasies about what kind of person she would be - but she's done a fantastic job of smashing them for me. I've learned to say goodbye to my fantasy daughter and love and support the one I have. Turns out she's much cooler than anything I could imagine ;)

> hence you teaching them
> A. Morals (and since everyone has their own opinion of right and wrong
> you can see my point)

I suspect you mean something closer to values or principles - morals are socially derived rules of conduct, not personal views about right and wrong. I help my kids navigate social rules and understand their purpose and context.

It's not really possible to teach values or principles. Those arise naturally from within a person tied to a combination of needs and experiences. When I live by my principles (or close to them) people around me have reasons to value those principles - it makes their lives better: more pleasant, more predictable, more supportive. That's true whether the people around me are my kids or friends or even random strangers. That affects the values of the people around me, just as their behavior affects my values. I've learned principles from my parents, but also from friends, my kids, from tv and movies, from books and games and total strangers.

---Meredith

Sandra Dodd

I like what Meredith wrote:

"It's not really possible to teach values or principles. Those arise naturally from within a person tied to a combination of needs and experiences. When I live by my principles (or close to them) people around me have reasons to value those principles - it makes their lives better: more pleasant, more predictable, more supportive. That's true whether the people around me are my kids or friends or even random strangers. That affects the values of the people around me, just as their behavior affects my values. I've learned principles from my parents, but also from friends, my kids, from tv and movies, from books and games and total strangers. "

I didn't "teach" my children morals, but I married a man who is moral, and I have been lived as well as I could, being honest and helpful and responsible.

Yesterday Holly wanted a rescue from a situation, so Keith and I drove four hours to pick her up. On the way back, Keith remembered he had agreed to do something (very brief, five minutes) for a friend who was going to come to the house. We didn't have the friend's phone number. Keith had stood him up, only because of the unexpected out-of-town trip.

Keith is So Reliable that the friend probably thought he had had a medical emergency.

We called Marty and asked him to contact the friend. The phone number that had been left on our answering machine didn't work, not with the area code or without it.

Think of what Holly knows and learns from being in the back seat at a moment like that? She was in the back seat of her parents' car, safer and on her way home, and she saw us trying to amend the failure to be home for our friend.

We didn't do that to teach her anything. We did that because that's the way we live our lives.

Sandra

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