Teens and Smoking
michelle_mcritchie
Hi All,
Second message to the group and I seem to be starting with the 'heavy subjects'.
I have a feeling my 14 yr old daughter is testing our new parenting approach and what limits/boundaries it has but yesterday she was walking along with me (we went to the city for the day shopping) and said "Mum you know how I don't go to school, well most teens at school get the chance to try smoking if they want but because I am unschooled I can't do this so I was wondering if you could buy me a pack of cigarettes and let me try one" !!!!
OK I must admit I was the queen of subject changing as one of my other kids interrupted and I never got to answer her (and she didn't get to ask again) .....
Just wondering how others would have responded to this?????????
I'm thinking if it was alcohol some parents do allow them to try it in a 'safe' environment (but drinking doesn't have to be unhealthy if it's not excessive) whereas smoking isn't really 'healthy' at any level ...
Thoughts?
Michelle
Second message to the group and I seem to be starting with the 'heavy subjects'.
I have a feeling my 14 yr old daughter is testing our new parenting approach and what limits/boundaries it has but yesterday she was walking along with me (we went to the city for the day shopping) and said "Mum you know how I don't go to school, well most teens at school get the chance to try smoking if they want but because I am unschooled I can't do this so I was wondering if you could buy me a pack of cigarettes and let me try one" !!!!
OK I must admit I was the queen of subject changing as one of my other kids interrupted and I never got to answer her (and she didn't get to ask again) .....
Just wondering how others would have responded to this?????????
I'm thinking if it was alcohol some parents do allow them to try it in a 'safe' environment (but drinking doesn't have to be unhealthy if it's not excessive) whereas smoking isn't really 'healthy' at any level ...
Thoughts?
Michelle
Sandra Dodd
-=-"Mum you know how I don't go to school, well most teens at school get the chance to try smoking if they want but because I am unschooled I can't do this so I was wondering if you could buy me a pack of cigarettes and let me try one" !!!!-=-
-=-OK I must admit I was the queen of subject changing as one of my other kids interrupted and I never got to answer her (and she didn't get to ask again) �..-=-
-=-Just wondering how others would have responded to this?????????-=-
Ooooh�
You "never got to answer her"?
You chose not to answer her. Be honest.
She "didn't get to ask again"? How did you manage that? Or do you think she saw you as the queen of subject changing, accepted that as a "No" and also as "I won't even respond to your questions about cigarettes," and now she will ask someone else to buy her cigarettes?
You don't need to buy her a pack to let her try one. You could borrow or trade for or buy a cigarette from a friend or stranger who smokes.
One cigarette will not do as much damage to her as having a mother who doesn't know how to talk to her openly.
I'm glad you're asking the question here, and I hope the next time she asks something if you can't think of an answer right away you could say "Let me think about it a bit." Dodging and ducking aren't verbal communication, but they are communication. If you reached out to touch her gently and she softened toward it, that would be a different communication than if she flinched back quickly and looked disturbed. There are things in between those. Stiffening but accepting the touch briefly. Hugging you. Leaving the room huffily.
When she reached out to touch you verbally, you stiffened and turned away (no words in return).
Maybe you could go and talk to her and say that when she asked you were surprised, and didn't think of an answer, but that you don't want to ignore the question because you want her to communicate with you more, and not less.
And then, if you really believe that, you will need to work on making choices when you speak, and not reciting the script of the controlling parents around you, and not default to things your mother would have said to you, but honestly and thoughtfully consider alternatives with each phrase and word.
It will be harder the first time than the second time. It will be easier the tenth time than the ninth time.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
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-=-OK I must admit I was the queen of subject changing as one of my other kids interrupted and I never got to answer her (and she didn't get to ask again) �..-=-
-=-Just wondering how others would have responded to this?????????-=-
Ooooh�
You "never got to answer her"?
You chose not to answer her. Be honest.
She "didn't get to ask again"? How did you manage that? Or do you think she saw you as the queen of subject changing, accepted that as a "No" and also as "I won't even respond to your questions about cigarettes," and now she will ask someone else to buy her cigarettes?
You don't need to buy her a pack to let her try one. You could borrow or trade for or buy a cigarette from a friend or stranger who smokes.
One cigarette will not do as much damage to her as having a mother who doesn't know how to talk to her openly.
I'm glad you're asking the question here, and I hope the next time she asks something if you can't think of an answer right away you could say "Let me think about it a bit." Dodging and ducking aren't verbal communication, but they are communication. If you reached out to touch her gently and she softened toward it, that would be a different communication than if she flinched back quickly and looked disturbed. There are things in between those. Stiffening but accepting the touch briefly. Hugging you. Leaving the room huffily.
When she reached out to touch you verbally, you stiffened and turned away (no words in return).
Maybe you could go and talk to her and say that when she asked you were surprised, and didn't think of an answer, but that you don't want to ignore the question because you want her to communicate with you more, and not less.
And then, if you really believe that, you will need to work on making choices when you speak, and not reciting the script of the controlling parents around you, and not default to things your mother would have said to you, but honestly and thoughtfully consider alternatives with each phrase and word.
It will be harder the first time than the second time. It will be easier the tenth time than the ninth time.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 17, 2012, at 4:11 AM, michelle_mcritchie wrote:
I'd bet some of the most common reasons kids start smoking is because it's bonding with peers who can feel more supportive than family, it's a thumbing-the-nose reactionary choice to parental control. Are either of those true for you daughter?
(If anyone is good at self-examining to analyze why they started smoking, you could add to the pool of knowledge. And it's important to note that 99% of the smoking parents here were schooled and probably conventionally parented. If you hadn't wanted the approval of your peers, if you had felt your parents respected who you were and supported you in making decisions, would you have smoked.)
I think it says some very healthy things about your relationship that she trusts you enough to ask! :-) I think you have a big opportunity to bolster that trust by helping her see what it's like.
There are a lot of negative factors about smoking to overcome -- like $$$!!, like fewer people smoking, like needing to ostracize yourself from a group to smoke (at least around Boston where I live), like the health issues -- in order for someone to want to smoke enough become addicted. If those factors aren't there, how likely is it that she'd continue to smoke after she tried it?
Joyce
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> (but drinking doesn't have to be unhealthy if it's not excessive)I wouldn't say that no level of smoking is healthy. A single cigarette won't hurt someone. The body can work the smoke particles out of the lungs. It's part of the function lungs were designed for. :-) I worked with someone who smoked 1 cigarette a day.
> whereas smoking isn't really 'healthy' at any level ...
I'd bet some of the most common reasons kids start smoking is because it's bonding with peers who can feel more supportive than family, it's a thumbing-the-nose reactionary choice to parental control. Are either of those true for you daughter?
(If anyone is good at self-examining to analyze why they started smoking, you could add to the pool of knowledge. And it's important to note that 99% of the smoking parents here were schooled and probably conventionally parented. If you hadn't wanted the approval of your peers, if you had felt your parents respected who you were and supported you in making decisions, would you have smoked.)
I think it says some very healthy things about your relationship that she trusts you enough to ask! :-) I think you have a big opportunity to bolster that trust by helping her see what it's like.
There are a lot of negative factors about smoking to overcome -- like $$$!!, like fewer people smoking, like needing to ostracize yourself from a group to smoke (at least around Boston where I live), like the health issues -- in order for someone to want to smoke enough become addicted. If those factors aren't there, how likely is it that she'd continue to smoke after she tried it?
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm thinking if it was alcohol some parents do allow them to try it in a 'safe' environment (but drinking doesn't have to be unhealthy if it's not excessive) whereas smoking isn't really 'healthy' at any level ...
-=-Thoughts?-=-
First I really, truly want you to read this page:
http://sandradodd.com/control
Your child will be helpless and trapped if you don't give her some space to make decisions, and to practice with some smaller things (a cigarette, or even a whole pack) while she's young and has you near. There are bigger, more dangerous things to come and if she is made to wait until she's grown and gone, she will practice out there, with greater stakes and consequences.
From your post I'm guessing you're in the UK. The drinking age is 18.
Where I live, it's 21. I could have told my kids that they should NEVER, ever touch alcohol, not liquor, not beer, not wine, until they were 21. I didn't do that. I knew they were going to taste it, maybe even get drunk and puke. I would rather have a relationship with them that made it safe and comfortable for them to share those stories, and so that I could ask someone else to keep an eye on them (an older sibling or friend) if they were out at a party or camping where there was alcohol.
We have had birthday parties here with alcohol (although I know the laws, and I know the moral dilemma, so it's okay if people here don't write and attempt to shame me or change what has already happened and that was done with thought and discussion and care). There have also been parties of kids old enough to drink where there wasn't anything more than maybe a little beer, but mostly lots of soda and food and games. When there have been drinks involved, one or two kids took care of the table and made mixed drinks. One of their friends became and now is a professional bartender, and if he's here he organizes those things. Between parties, the liquor is in the house, but it sits and gets dusty, only to be brought out again in six months or a year when there's another party.
Kirby doesn't drink much, it seems. He got a bottle of tequila for his 21st birthday. He moved to Texas days later, and didn't even take that unopened bottle of tequila. It eventually went into drinks at other parties here (maybe Kirby's, as he's celebrated a couple of birthdays at home since he left). Marty has done more drinking than the others. Now, at 23, he sometimes goes to a bar near us (where his friend is the bartender) for "geeks who drink," a trivia game. It's near enough for him to walk home safely, or if he stays long enough the sober bartender can drive him by.
Holly drank sooner than the others because most of her friends were older, friends of her brothers. She drank where her brothers were, generally, and they always either had arranged to stay where they were or had a designated driver, or Keith and I were aware it was that sort of party and were available to pick them up if necessary. We have never been called to pick anyone up, though we have a few times gone the next day to pick up the automobile they left at the party when they got a ride home from a safe driver.
Sandra
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-=-Thoughts?-=-
First I really, truly want you to read this page:
http://sandradodd.com/control
Your child will be helpless and trapped if you don't give her some space to make decisions, and to practice with some smaller things (a cigarette, or even a whole pack) while she's young and has you near. There are bigger, more dangerous things to come and if she is made to wait until she's grown and gone, she will practice out there, with greater stakes and consequences.
From your post I'm guessing you're in the UK. The drinking age is 18.
Where I live, it's 21. I could have told my kids that they should NEVER, ever touch alcohol, not liquor, not beer, not wine, until they were 21. I didn't do that. I knew they were going to taste it, maybe even get drunk and puke. I would rather have a relationship with them that made it safe and comfortable for them to share those stories, and so that I could ask someone else to keep an eye on them (an older sibling or friend) if they were out at a party or camping where there was alcohol.
We have had birthday parties here with alcohol (although I know the laws, and I know the moral dilemma, so it's okay if people here don't write and attempt to shame me or change what has already happened and that was done with thought and discussion and care). There have also been parties of kids old enough to drink where there wasn't anything more than maybe a little beer, but mostly lots of soda and food and games. When there have been drinks involved, one or two kids took care of the table and made mixed drinks. One of their friends became and now is a professional bartender, and if he's here he organizes those things. Between parties, the liquor is in the house, but it sits and gets dusty, only to be brought out again in six months or a year when there's another party.
Kirby doesn't drink much, it seems. He got a bottle of tequila for his 21st birthday. He moved to Texas days later, and didn't even take that unopened bottle of tequila. It eventually went into drinks at other parties here (maybe Kirby's, as he's celebrated a couple of birthdays at home since he left). Marty has done more drinking than the others. Now, at 23, he sometimes goes to a bar near us (where his friend is the bartender) for "geeks who drink," a trivia game. It's near enough for him to walk home safely, or if he stays long enough the sober bartender can drive him by.
Holly drank sooner than the others because most of her friends were older, friends of her brothers. She drank where her brothers were, generally, and they always either had arranged to stay where they were or had a designated driver, or Keith and I were aware it was that sort of party and were available to pick them up if necessary. We have never been called to pick anyone up, though we have a few times gone the next day to pick up the automobile they left at the party when they got a ride home from a safe driver.
Sandra
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Jay Ford
I had this conversation with my 17 yr ol yesterday. She is now living in the next state over with her other parent, working and attending community college. She just met this 20 yr old boy at work she has a crush on, who smokes. I grew up around smokers (parents, aunts, uncles, grandparents) and as a result my siblings and cousins all do not smoke (we all disliked it). And she told me that she had tried it on several occasions in the past (not with this boy). We also discussed the addictive nature of it (ie nicotine) and that sometimes starting to smoke a few can lead to more, because of that. It was a good discussion. She said the times she has tried them, 1 was enough, because then they tasted bad. While I personally hope she does not take up smoking (expense, health, smell), it is her life, she is earning her own money, etc. I love that she can talk to me about these things, just as she did regarding alcohol (she drank while in
England, and got drunk once or twice in the saftey of the home she was visiting), and she has openly talked to me about sex.
Right now both of my kids talk to me about all sorts of things most teens do NOT talk with their parents about, openly and honestly. I also don't snoop or spy on them. I answer their questions, give them real information, and don't condemn or judge them if they choose something that I would not choose.
People around me complain about their teenagers all the time. I really enjoy mine, and watching them grow into thoughtful, responsible adults..
Jon
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England, and got drunk once or twice in the saftey of the home she was visiting), and she has openly talked to me about sex.
Right now both of my kids talk to me about all sorts of things most teens do NOT talk with their parents about, openly and honestly. I also don't snoop or spy on them. I answer their questions, give them real information, and don't condemn or judge them if they choose something that I would not choose.
People around me complain about their teenagers all the time. I really enjoy mine, and watching them grow into thoughtful, responsible adults..
Jon
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I just wanted to pull this out and highlight it because this has been so big in my life. Still working on it.
"... you will need to work on making choices when you speak, and not reciting the script of the controlling parents around you, and not default to things your mother would have said to you, but honestly and thoughtfully consider alternatives with each phrase and word.
It will be harder the first time than the second time. It will be easier the tenth time than the ninth time."
It has not only changed me as a mother but as a partner and person. Not I other people speaking out words without ever really thinking about what they are saying. They just repeat and say things without a thought.
Not that I don't still do it. I do.
And I wanted to extend it to not just "script of the controlling parents" but to everything in general. People just repeat things or say things , in general.
Alex Polikowsky
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"... you will need to work on making choices when you speak, and not reciting the script of the controlling parents around you, and not default to things your mother would have said to you, but honestly and thoughtfully consider alternatives with each phrase and word.
It will be harder the first time than the second time. It will be easier the tenth time than the ninth time."
It has not only changed me as a mother but as a partner and person. Not I other people speaking out words without ever really thinking about what they are saying. They just repeat and say things without a thought.
Not that I don't still do it. I do.
And I wanted to extend it to not just "script of the controlling parents" but to everything in general. People just repeat things or say things , in general.
Alex Polikowsky
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Sandra Dodd
Marty's girlfriend smokes. She has tried to stop and failed.
Marty smokes one cigarette every few days, I hear. Fewer than one a day.
Holly smokes a cigarette very occasionally, I have heard. Fewer than Marty does.
Holly's boyfriend doesn't smoke.
Kirby smokes sometimes, but not cigarettes.
Roya Sorooshian's husband smokes.
That's all the data I have to offer. :-)
Sandra
Marty smokes one cigarette every few days, I hear. Fewer than one a day.
Holly smokes a cigarette very occasionally, I have heard. Fewer than Marty does.
Holly's boyfriend doesn't smoke.
Kirby smokes sometimes, but not cigarettes.
Roya Sorooshian's husband smokes.
That's all the data I have to offer. :-)
Sandra
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I was an occasional smoker since I was 15. What they call a social smoker.
I have not had one since I got pregnant with my son over 10 years ago.
There were times I smoked almost a pack and times I smoked non.
It has never been a problem for me to stop smoking so maybe some people
do not have a tendency to get addicted to nicotine
I can take it or leave it and starting early did not make me into an addicted smoker.
Alex Polikowsky
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I have not had one since I got pregnant with my son over 10 years ago.
There were times I smoked almost a pack and times I smoked non.
It has never been a problem for me to stop smoking so maybe some people
do not have a tendency to get addicted to nicotine
I can take it or leave it and starting early did not make me into an addicted smoker.
Alex Polikowsky
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Vanessa Orsborn
I'm from the UK and as Sandra has said, the legal age is 18, but aside from that I think that underage drinking is not frowned on by parents (and in some of Europe the legal age is 16!). So I was given watered down wine in my baby beaker and always had a glass of wine when my parents did (normally only on Sunday's). When I went to parties when I was 16-17 my mother would buy my alcohol for me. At these parties (also at university) I watched kids who were drinking behind their parents back, bingeing and getting out of control. I never felt the need as I viewed alcohol differently.
Smoking and drugs on the other hand, were looked down on and forbidden. So these were so exciting to me! Something sneaky, forbidden, a secret club I could belong to that rebelled against everything. I loved smoking and taking drugs SO much. So much fun!
But I never became addicted to either- I sometimes smoked 20 a day for a week then didn't smoke at all for 2 months. I might have a huge drug binge and not sleep for 3 days. Then not touch anything for a month. I did once develop a "dependency" on sleeping tablets because I was so stressed in my job I couldn't get to sleep. As soon as I left the job I could stop the tablets.
When I decided I wanted children, I stopped smoking and taking drugs with no problem, no relapse.
That's my story.
Vanessa
Smoking and drugs on the other hand, were looked down on and forbidden. So these were so exciting to me! Something sneaky, forbidden, a secret club I could belong to that rebelled against everything. I loved smoking and taking drugs SO much. So much fun!
But I never became addicted to either- I sometimes smoked 20 a day for a week then didn't smoke at all for 2 months. I might have a huge drug binge and not sleep for 3 days. Then not touch anything for a month. I did once develop a "dependency" on sleeping tablets because I was so stressed in my job I couldn't get to sleep. As soon as I left the job I could stop the tablets.
When I decided I wanted children, I stopped smoking and taking drugs with no problem, no relapse.
That's my story.
Vanessa
Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
There's a difference between "having the occasional cigarette" and "smoking" too. I've had the occasional "hit" of tobacco over the years out of curiosity. George smokes more often than I do - he'll smoke a whole cigarette now and then - and I've met a few others who smoke once and awhile, or just at parties.
Trying a cigarette in a safe, supportive environment (safe and supported to say no as well as yes) isn't the same as "starting smoking".
---Meredith
>> (If anyone is good at self-examining to analyze why they started smoking, you could add to the pool of knowledge.**************
There's a difference between "having the occasional cigarette" and "smoking" too. I've had the occasional "hit" of tobacco over the years out of curiosity. George smokes more often than I do - he'll smoke a whole cigarette now and then - and I've met a few others who smoke once and awhile, or just at parties.
Trying a cigarette in a safe, supportive environment (safe and supported to say no as well as yes) isn't the same as "starting smoking".
---Meredith
Jenny Cyphers
***I was an occasional smoker since I was 15. What they call a social smoker.***
That was me as a young adult! My husband has been smoking since he was 13. Both of his parents smoked, one still does. Both of my kids have grown up with a loving father who smokes. I knew a long time ago that it would be a 50/50 chance that either of my kids would grow up to smoke. It was part of the package I accepted when I fell in love with and married my husband.
Chamille is a social smoker too. She likely won't smoke forever. Maybe she will. I can't prevent her from doing either. Sometimes she smokes with her dad and talks.
I don't like smoking now, but it would be very hypocritical of me to disallow it. The smokeless cigarettes are very popular these days and that's my internal "back up" plan for all the people I love that smoke.
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That was me as a young adult! My husband has been smoking since he was 13. Both of his parents smoked, one still does. Both of my kids have grown up with a loving father who smokes. I knew a long time ago that it would be a 50/50 chance that either of my kids would grow up to smoke. It was part of the package I accepted when I fell in love with and married my husband.
Chamille is a social smoker too. She likely won't smoke forever. Maybe she will. I can't prevent her from doing either. Sometimes she smokes with her dad and talks.
I don't like smoking now, but it would be very hypocritical of me to disallow it. The smokeless cigarettes are very popular these days and that's my internal "back up" plan for all the people I love that smoke.
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Tam
My upbringing was fairly conventional, pretty authoritarian. My dad smoked cigars when I was very little, until I was maybe 5, and hid it from my mum. The subject of smoking was not to be discussed in a two way conversation, and we were left in no doubt that it was forbidden. I, however, started smoking at 14 whenever I had nights at friends' houses (we would go out around the estate, or from 15 onwards to the pub once we could pass for 18) and also in school lunch breaks we would sneak out of school and smoke. For me, it was definitely a bit of a fitting in thing (I was very quiet and academic and bullied for it), and a lot of a claiming my actions as my own thing as it was very strict at home and at school with very clear expectations of me at both in terms of who I was and would be.
Now, I obviously can't know for sure whether or not I would have smoked had I been brought up differently, but what I do know is when I smoked the most- the couple of hours before returning home from friends' houses, and later on when I was at university (smoking 20 a day by that point), I'd smoke most the day before I came home again, or that morning even, if I thought I could get rid of the smell in time. Sometimes I'd smoke maybe two packs the day before I was due to go home, and my first thought when I or back would always be when I could next sneak away. I spent a lot of time thinking of how to deceive them so I could keep control of this, and stressing at the thought of weeks at home where smoking was forbidden.
After a few failed attempts I stopped smoking age 26, after reading Allen Carr's book, (which, now I think about it, looks a lot at the forbidden aspect of smoking and how this affects the smoker's perception of addiction to it.)
Tam
Now, I obviously can't know for sure whether or not I would have smoked had I been brought up differently, but what I do know is when I smoked the most- the couple of hours before returning home from friends' houses, and later on when I was at university (smoking 20 a day by that point), I'd smoke most the day before I came home again, or that morning even, if I thought I could get rid of the smell in time. Sometimes I'd smoke maybe two packs the day before I was due to go home, and my first thought when I or back would always be when I could next sneak away. I spent a lot of time thinking of how to deceive them so I could keep control of this, and stressing at the thought of weeks at home where smoking was forbidden.
After a few failed attempts I stopped smoking age 26, after reading Allen Carr's book, (which, now I think about it, looks a lot at the forbidden aspect of smoking and how this affects the smoker's perception of addiction to it.)
Tam
Claire
I started smoking as a 14 year old, and smoked around 20 a day for the next 13 years. I started because I lacked confidence and wanted to feel tough and part of a 'rebel' kind of peer group. Then it became an addiction and part of my identity - I was a smoker. Smoking was very much a part of my social life as a teenager and young adult. In those days (late 80s through to late 90s) smoking did not carry the social stigma it carries today, and smoking was allowed in pubs and nightclubs. I quit at the age of 27 while back-packing - in Europe cigarettes were cheap and everybody smoked, but when we got to the UK, tobacco was heavily taxed and would have blown our meagre travelling budget. So that was it. I had to change my identity to become a non-smoker. I told myself over and over that I no longer wanted to pay evil multi-national companies to slowly kill myself ;) It worked though, and I've never had the desire for another cigarette, and find the smoke repulsive.
If I had a teenager who wanted to try a cigarette I'd help them, because in the context of unschooling, their desire would probably be one of experimentation. And almost everyone finds their first cigarette disgusting!! You have to force yourself to keep smoking for other reasons, not because the taste is so appealing!
But now, when my children are young, I make the effort every day to ensure they don't have the damaged sense of self that I had. I build up every day the kind of loving, connected relationship that will allow them to be open with me (as I was not with my mother) about their desire to try something. I support their choices and desires every day so that they feel loved and valued as unique individuals. Something as paltry as a cigarette is nowhere near as powerful as that.
Claire
If I had a teenager who wanted to try a cigarette I'd help them, because in the context of unschooling, their desire would probably be one of experimentation. And almost everyone finds their first cigarette disgusting!! You have to force yourself to keep smoking for other reasons, not because the taste is so appealing!
But now, when my children are young, I make the effort every day to ensure they don't have the damaged sense of self that I had. I build up every day the kind of loving, connected relationship that will allow them to be open with me (as I was not with my mother) about their desire to try something. I support their choices and desires every day so that they feel loved and valued as unique individuals. Something as paltry as a cigarette is nowhere near as powerful as that.
Claire
Meredith
"Claire" <claire.horsley08@...> wrote:
That's not my experience among people who smoke occasionally, and I know several smokers and former smokers who really enjoyed smoking right from the start. In fact, in my experience, smokers who enjoy smoking seem to have an easier time quitting - maybe for psychological reasons? because they see smoking as a choice? It might depend on what you try first (whether it's disgusting or not, I mean). I've never smoked anything other than hand-rolled and find even the idea of a filter tip disgusting.
---Meredith
> And almost everyone finds their first cigarette disgusting!! You have to force yourself to keep smoking for other reasons, not because the taste is so appealing!**************
That's not my experience among people who smoke occasionally, and I know several smokers and former smokers who really enjoyed smoking right from the start. In fact, in my experience, smokers who enjoy smoking seem to have an easier time quitting - maybe for psychological reasons? because they see smoking as a choice? It might depend on what you try first (whether it's disgusting or not, I mean). I've never smoked anything other than hand-rolled and find even the idea of a filter tip disgusting.
---Meredith
Schuyler
I smoked from the age of 12, with one year out, until I was 21. I started again when I was 23 and then quit when I was 27 and haven't smoked since, except for one cigarette at a party that made me nervous for weeks that I was going to start smoking again. I didn't.
My dad let me try his cigarette once when we were walking. I must have been 9 or 10 and expressed curiousity. I don't think it had anything to do with my smoking later. I started smoking at a time when my home life was under intense upheaval. My mom had moved away to work and my dad was gone from the house from early in the morning to late at night. I had moved from the easier, smaller, younger grade in school, to the larger school and more competetive school of junior high, or middle school, or secondary school or whatever it is in Australia, and was hanging with a wilder, faster group of kids. My smoking coincided with my school grades going into a steep decline. I wasn't smoking because I tasted a cigarette, I was smoking because it was something that was helping me to hook into a support network at a time when my seemingly stable home life was falling apart a bit.
I assume you are nervous that buying your daughter cigarettes will make her addicted. It may help to look at addiction as a response to environment rather than as a response to substance. http://walrusmagazine.com/article.php?ref=2007.12-health-rat-trap&page= is an article about Bruce Alexander and the research he did examining addiction in rats. He found that environment played a huge role in the response that rats showed to having addictive substances available. My enviroment sucked when I was 12. It didn't get better for a long time. When it did get better I stopped smoking and haven't relapsed in any meaningful way. That's what Bruce Alexander found in rats and later in humans. Humans in crap environments will smoke, drink, use drugs, gamble, whatever it is that makes the crap less crappy, the stress less intense. Humans will self-medicate. When situations get better, when the environment changes, like returning from the Vietnam war, humans will
stop using the drugs, go through the physical withdrawal symptoms, the hell that is separating from the addiction, and return to a life without that self-medication.
The best thing that any parent can do is to make their life with and their relationship with their children as good and as happy and as stress-free as possible. That way they will be less likely to feel a need to medicate their way out of the misery and stress that makes up their day to day lives.
I would buy Simon and Linnaea cigarettes if they were curious. I don't think I'd really think too long or too hard about it, either.
Schuyler
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My dad let me try his cigarette once when we were walking. I must have been 9 or 10 and expressed curiousity. I don't think it had anything to do with my smoking later. I started smoking at a time when my home life was under intense upheaval. My mom had moved away to work and my dad was gone from the house from early in the morning to late at night. I had moved from the easier, smaller, younger grade in school, to the larger school and more competetive school of junior high, or middle school, or secondary school or whatever it is in Australia, and was hanging with a wilder, faster group of kids. My smoking coincided with my school grades going into a steep decline. I wasn't smoking because I tasted a cigarette, I was smoking because it was something that was helping me to hook into a support network at a time when my seemingly stable home life was falling apart a bit.
I assume you are nervous that buying your daughter cigarettes will make her addicted. It may help to look at addiction as a response to environment rather than as a response to substance. http://walrusmagazine.com/article.php?ref=2007.12-health-rat-trap&page= is an article about Bruce Alexander and the research he did examining addiction in rats. He found that environment played a huge role in the response that rats showed to having addictive substances available. My enviroment sucked when I was 12. It didn't get better for a long time. When it did get better I stopped smoking and haven't relapsed in any meaningful way. That's what Bruce Alexander found in rats and later in humans. Humans in crap environments will smoke, drink, use drugs, gamble, whatever it is that makes the crap less crappy, the stress less intense. Humans will self-medicate. When situations get better, when the environment changes, like returning from the Vietnam war, humans will
stop using the drugs, go through the physical withdrawal symptoms, the hell that is separating from the addiction, and return to a life without that self-medication.
The best thing that any parent can do is to make their life with and their relationship with their children as good and as happy and as stress-free as possible. That way they will be less likely to feel a need to medicate their way out of the misery and stress that makes up their day to day lives.
I would buy Simon and Linnaea cigarettes if they were curious. I don't think I'd really think too long or too hard about it, either.
Schuyler
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Nancy
"(If anyone is good at self-examining to analyze why they started
smoking, you could add to the pool of knowledge. And it's important to
note that 99% of the smoking parents here were schooled and probably
conventionally parented. If you hadn't wanted the approval of your
peers, if you had felt your parents respected who you were and
supported you in making decisions, would you have smoked.)"
I was raised in the LDS church (Mormon) where it is forbidden to smoke
cigarettes. Neither of my parents smoked. I can remember being 10 or
so and declaring to my friends that I would smoke when I grew up. I
also wanted to get married as soon as possible and get away from my
parents. I decided that I hated them both (my parents) early...before
I was 8 at least. It had a lot to do with the religious rules they
imposed (hypocritically) and it had to do with the spanking and
shaming and chores and more. I was angry and depressed a lot as a kid,
and not surprisingly, turned into an angry and depressed teenager. And
my parents divorced. I started smoking when I was 13, the summer
before I started high school. I looked older, could buy them (often I
stole money from my parents), and I started hanging with other, older
kids who smoked. I also shoplifted cigarettes on a regular basis. They
used to be in a case by the gum in the grocery checkout (in the late
80s) and not locked up at all. It was easy. My parents hated it and I
got in trouble about it alot, but I was a pretty dedicated smoker. It
became part of my rebellious identity. I enjoyed it very much.
Once, in college, I broke up with my live in boyfriend (didnt end up
getting married early, but this breakup was still pretty much like a
divorce)
and I was smoking more heavily than usual. I remember going to bed at
night, being so lonely and sad, and wishing I could "smoke to sleep".
Many years later, when I had babies to nurse to sleep, I made the
connection that I was really self soothing myself with cigarettes
(especially in that breakup period). I also sucked my thumb until I
was in fourth or fifth grade, to my parents horror. My mom used to
paint my thumb with icky stuff to try to stop me.
Do I think I would have smoked if my parents had respected me and
supported me and been kind and enthusiastic and involved? I doubt I
would have been so hell bent on it, and I doubt I would have kept
going, or been so dependent on them as an identity or to self soothe.
I quit the day I gave birth to my daughter. It seemed absurd that I
would smoke around her, or while nursing her (which I was) and I had
wanted to quit for years. Im completely recovered, I dont even crave
it. I also quit getting drunk. I dont have such self destructive urges
anymore now that my life is full of pretty good stuff.
Nancy
Zibby age 8
Henry age 4
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smoking, you could add to the pool of knowledge. And it's important to
note that 99% of the smoking parents here were schooled and probably
conventionally parented. If you hadn't wanted the approval of your
peers, if you had felt your parents respected who you were and
supported you in making decisions, would you have smoked.)"
I was raised in the LDS church (Mormon) where it is forbidden to smoke
cigarettes. Neither of my parents smoked. I can remember being 10 or
so and declaring to my friends that I would smoke when I grew up. I
also wanted to get married as soon as possible and get away from my
parents. I decided that I hated them both (my parents) early...before
I was 8 at least. It had a lot to do with the religious rules they
imposed (hypocritically) and it had to do with the spanking and
shaming and chores and more. I was angry and depressed a lot as a kid,
and not surprisingly, turned into an angry and depressed teenager. And
my parents divorced. I started smoking when I was 13, the summer
before I started high school. I looked older, could buy them (often I
stole money from my parents), and I started hanging with other, older
kids who smoked. I also shoplifted cigarettes on a regular basis. They
used to be in a case by the gum in the grocery checkout (in the late
80s) and not locked up at all. It was easy. My parents hated it and I
got in trouble about it alot, but I was a pretty dedicated smoker. It
became part of my rebellious identity. I enjoyed it very much.
Once, in college, I broke up with my live in boyfriend (didnt end up
getting married early, but this breakup was still pretty much like a
divorce)
and I was smoking more heavily than usual. I remember going to bed at
night, being so lonely and sad, and wishing I could "smoke to sleep".
Many years later, when I had babies to nurse to sleep, I made the
connection that I was really self soothing myself with cigarettes
(especially in that breakup period). I also sucked my thumb until I
was in fourth or fifth grade, to my parents horror. My mom used to
paint my thumb with icky stuff to try to stop me.
Do I think I would have smoked if my parents had respected me and
supported me and been kind and enthusiastic and involved? I doubt I
would have been so hell bent on it, and I doubt I would have kept
going, or been so dependent on them as an identity or to self soothe.
I quit the day I gave birth to my daughter. It seemed absurd that I
would smoke around her, or while nursing her (which I was) and I had
wanted to quit for years. Im completely recovered, I dont even crave
it. I also quit getting drunk. I dont have such self destructive urges
anymore now that my life is full of pretty good stuff.
Nancy
Zibby age 8
Henry age 4
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Jenny Cyphers
***I would buy Simon and Linnaea cigarettes if they were curious. I don't think I'd really think too long or too hard about it, either.***
There are teens at our house all the time. They range in age from 15 up to 27. Obviously some of them have surpassed teen years. Most are in the 17-20 range. Hookahs are very popular right now. They like to do that. There's even a hookah bar down the street from us. Margaux is 10 and really hates smoking. She likes to be included when all the teens are around though. Just an hour or so ago, Chamille, my oldest who is 18, was asking about what to do with Margaux while they were smoking hookah because Margaux will be upset if they kick her out while they smoke. I suggested they offer her some to try. Chamille said that she thought Margaux would hate it and I agreed, but the offer of it would change the whole dynamic and Margaux would want to hang out and she wouldn't complain about smoking if she were to feel included in the whole process. Generally, it's the smell she doesn't like, but hookah smoke smells like fruit pies or incense.
At this moment, there are 4 people in the room with the hookah, 10, 17, 18, and 19 and everyone is happy and getting along. I will soon join them in that same space to clean the bathroom and listen to music with them.
I like a peaceful house. Sometimes smoking is peaceful. My aunt smoked for years and years and felt guilty about it. Her and her husband decided that they would smoke once a day every day and watch the sunset together. He took up smoking to do this. It was their ritual smoking wind down. She died by being hit by a drunk driver about a year after they started doing that. My uncle remembers that time fondly, sitting and smoking and watching the sunset with his wife. I thought it was sweet and sounded like a nice way to enjoy a cigarette, and cigar (that's what he smoked).
I honestly don't think smoking is a bad thing. It can have ill effects on a person, but I've known people who have smoked for the majority of their life and live to be near 100 yrs of age and die from completely unrelated, to smoking, causes. Heck, I used to smoke clove cigarettes and those things are now banned where I live because they are so bad for you. However, every time I smell one, I'm taken right back to those 80's clubbing days! It's a happy memory!
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There are teens at our house all the time. They range in age from 15 up to 27. Obviously some of them have surpassed teen years. Most are in the 17-20 range. Hookahs are very popular right now. They like to do that. There's even a hookah bar down the street from us. Margaux is 10 and really hates smoking. She likes to be included when all the teens are around though. Just an hour or so ago, Chamille, my oldest who is 18, was asking about what to do with Margaux while they were smoking hookah because Margaux will be upset if they kick her out while they smoke. I suggested they offer her some to try. Chamille said that she thought Margaux would hate it and I agreed, but the offer of it would change the whole dynamic and Margaux would want to hang out and she wouldn't complain about smoking if she were to feel included in the whole process. Generally, it's the smell she doesn't like, but hookah smoke smells like fruit pies or incense.
At this moment, there are 4 people in the room with the hookah, 10, 17, 18, and 19 and everyone is happy and getting along. I will soon join them in that same space to clean the bathroom and listen to music with them.
I like a peaceful house. Sometimes smoking is peaceful. My aunt smoked for years and years and felt guilty about it. Her and her husband decided that they would smoke once a day every day and watch the sunset together. He took up smoking to do this. It was their ritual smoking wind down. She died by being hit by a drunk driver about a year after they started doing that. My uncle remembers that time fondly, sitting and smoking and watching the sunset with his wife. I thought it was sweet and sounded like a nice way to enjoy a cigarette, and cigar (that's what he smoked).
I honestly don't think smoking is a bad thing. It can have ill effects on a person, but I've known people who have smoked for the majority of their life and live to be near 100 yrs of age and die from completely unrelated, to smoking, causes. Heck, I used to smoke clove cigarettes and those things are now banned where I live because they are so bad for you. However, every time I smell one, I'm taken right back to those 80's clubbing days! It's a happy memory!
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michelle_mcritchie
Thank you for your honesty and for speaking truth Sandra (and also for everyone else's advice/thoughts). When I first read it my defences came up but as I analysed that I realised it was because what you said was truthful. There have been many times where I don't answer my kids if their questions are too hard for me. I often use the little kids interrupting as an 'excuse' to not answer our older two kids when I feel their questions are beyond me. So this is an area I really need to change and grow in. I apologised to my daughter this morning and explained that her question had thrown me but in future when she asks me a question that I am unsure of I will try to just say "Let me think about it" instead of ignoring her.
I then told her that if she was interested in trying out smoking I could organise to get some smokes off a workmate of mine. She then quickly said "Oh I was only joking, oh Mum, you are such a weird parent, that's just really weird" ....
Hmmm so I just said "Ok well if you do want to try just let me know and I will get some for you to try" and then she just continued to mumble how weird I was (actually I think she used the word "Freak" as I left her room).
Hmmm ....
Michelle
I then told her that if she was interested in trying out smoking I could organise to get some smokes off a workmate of mine. She then quickly said "Oh I was only joking, oh Mum, you are such a weird parent, that's just really weird" ....
Hmmm so I just said "Ok well if you do want to try just let me know and I will get some for you to try" and then she just continued to mumble how weird I was (actually I think she used the word "Freak" as I left her room).
Hmmm ....
Michelle
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-"Mum you know how I don't go to school, well most teens at school get the chance to try smoking if they want but because I am unschooled I can't do this so I was wondering if you could buy me a pack of cigarettes and let me try one" !!!!-=-
>
> -=-OK I must admit I was the queen of subject changing as one of my other kids interrupted and I never got to answer her (and she didn't get to ask again) ..-=-
>
> -=-Just wondering how others would have responded to this?????????-=-
>
>
> Ooooh
> You "never got to answer her"?
>
> You chose not to answer her. Be honest.
>
> She "didn't get to ask again"? How did you manage that? Or do you think she saw you as the queen of subject changing, accepted that as a "No" and also as "I won't even respond to your questions about cigarettes," and now she will ask someone else to buy her cigarettes?
>
>
> You don't need to buy her a pack to let her try one. You could borrow or trade for or buy a cigarette from a friend or stranger who smokes.
>
> One cigarette will not do as much damage to her as having a mother who doesn't know how to talk to her openly.
>
> I'm glad you're asking the question here, and I hope the next time she asks something if you can't think of an answer right away you could say "Let me think about it a bit." Dodging and ducking aren't verbal communication, but they are communication. If you reached out to touch her gently and she softened toward it, that would be a different communication than if she flinched back quickly and looked disturbed. There are things in between those. Stiffening but accepting the touch briefly. Hugging you. Leaving the room huffily.
>
> When she reached out to touch you verbally, you stiffened and turned away (no words in return).
>
> Maybe you could go and talk to her and say that when she asked you were surprised, and didn't think of an answer, but that you don't want to ignore the question because you want her to communicate with you more, and not less.
>
> And then, if you really believe that, you will need to work on making choices when you speak, and not reciting the script of the controlling parents around you, and not default to things your mother would have said to you, but honestly and thoughtfully consider alternatives with each phrase and word.
>
> It will be harder the first time than the second time. It will be easier the tenth time than the ninth time.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/choices
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Robin Bentley
> "(If anyone is good at self-examining to analyze why they startedI grew up in a house where my parents and my older sister all smoked.
> smoking, you could add to the pool of knowledge. And it's important to
> note that 99% of the smoking parents here were schooled and probably
> conventionally parented. If you hadn't wanted the approval of your
> peers, if you had felt your parents respected who you were and
> supported you in making decisions, would you have smoked.)"
>
I was a latch-key kid and in Grade 7, my friend and I would sneak my
mom's cigarettes and smoke in the bathroom with the window open. I'm
not sure my parents ever noticed, since smoke was always in the house.
I have some breathing issues still (allergies, asthma) and I had
regular bouts of bronchitis as a kid, due to the smoke in the house,
but no one knew the effects then.
I sneaked around to smoke, but bought my own and hid them or gave them
to a friend until finally, when I was going to visit a girlfriend on
the other side of the country, I told my mum I smoked. I wrote her a
letter about it. I was afraid my friend's mom would tell her, so I
thought I'd get the jump on it. It wasn't a really big deal to her
(and I'm not sure why I thought it would be, other than we weren't in
each other's lives much then - my friends were more important).
By college, I was smoking 2 packs a day. Coffee and cigarettes, my
favorite meal! Then I met my first husband. He didn't smoke, so I quit
at age 19. I had a few moments in which I was really stressed years
later where I had one or two cigarettes right in the moment. I
divorced and married another non-smoker (and non-drinker/non-drug-
taker). I had a job which took me out of town and a lot of my
colleagues smoked, so I did, too. But that lasted a year or so and I
quit for good.
Most of the time, I hate the smell of smoke. But every now and then, I
crave a cigarette. There's something, even now, enjoyably sneaky about
it. I think these were my main reasons - to have something secret and
sneaky, to have something *I* could control, to fit in with my peers,
to be separate from my parents. My daughter doesn't seem to need that
kind of thing and she has very particular ideas about smoking (doesn't
like it, doesn't want to try it). But if she did want to try a
cigarette, I would be there to help her.
Robin B.
michelle_mcritchie
Oh and I am in Australia, so drinking age is 18 years as well and we have strict laws/fines for providing alcohol to minors so yeah something we need to consider too ... but has definitely challenged me on my 'old' thoughts to my own children drinking before 18 yrs at home!
Michelle
Michelle
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I'm thinking if it was alcohol some parents do allow them to try it in a 'safe' environment (but drinking doesn't have to be unhealthy if it's not excessive) whereas smoking isn't really 'healthy' at any level ...
>
> -=-Thoughts?-=-
>
> First I really, truly want you to read this page:
> http://sandradodd.com/control
>
> Your child will be helpless and trapped if you don't give her some space to make decisions, and to practice with some smaller things (a cigarette, or even a whole pack) while she's young and has you near. There are bigger, more dangerous things to come and if she is made to wait until she's grown and gone, she will practice out there, with greater stakes and consequences.
>
> From your post I'm guessing you're in the UK. The drinking age is 18.
>
> Where I live, it's 21. I could have told my kids that they should NEVER, ever touch alcohol, not liquor, not beer, not wine, until they were 21. I didn't do that. I knew they were going to taste it, maybe even get drunk and puke. I would rather have a relationship with them that made it safe and comfortable for them to share those stories, and so that I could ask someone else to keep an eye on them (an older sibling or friend) if they were out at a party or camping where there was alcohol.
>
> We have had birthday parties here with alcohol (although I know the laws, and I know the moral dilemma, so it's okay if people here don't write and attempt to shame me or change what has already happened and that was done with thought and discussion and care). There have also been parties of kids old enough to drink where there wasn't anything more than maybe a little beer, but mostly lots of soda and food and games. When there have been drinks involved, one or two kids took care of the table and made mixed drinks. One of their friends became and now is a professional bartender, and if he's here he organizes those things. Between parties, the liquor is in the house, but it sits and gets dusty, only to be brought out again in six months or a year when there's another party.
>
> Kirby doesn't drink much, it seems. He got a bottle of tequila for his 21st birthday. He moved to Texas days later, and didn't even take that unopened bottle of tequila. It eventually went into drinks at other parties here (maybe Kirby's, as he's celebrated a couple of birthdays at home since he left). Marty has done more drinking than the others. Now, at 23, he sometimes goes to a bar near us (where his friend is the bartender) for "geeks who drink," a trivia game. It's near enough for him to walk home safely, or if he stays long enough the sober bartender can drive him by.
>
> Holly drank sooner than the others because most of her friends were older, friends of her brothers. She drank where her brothers were, generally, and they always either had arranged to stay where they were or had a designated driver, or Keith and I were aware it was that sort of party and were available to pick them up if necessary. We have never been called to pick anyone up, though we have a few times gone the next day to pick up the automobile they left at the party when they got a ride home from a safe driver.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I honestly don't think smoking is a bad thing. It can have ill effects on a person, but I've known people who have smoked for the majority of their life and live to be near 100 yrs of age and die from completely unrelated, to smoking, causes. Heck, I used to smoke clove cigarettes and those things are now banned where I live because they are so bad for you. However, every time I smell one, I'm taken right back to those 80's clubbing days! It's a happy memory!-=-
There are empty pubs, with the buildings for rent, all over the UK because of the smoking ban.
Nice old guys who would have been at the pub with friends are home alone, maybe drinking and smoking alone, maybe dead now, but deprived of their pub-in-old-age experience because of the self-righteous zeal of younger people who want to control other people's lives.
Other old people who owned pubs and could have used that income had to close them.
It seems obvious that this didn't help as many people as it hurt.
I think bars and restaurants should have the option to have smoking or not. Too much "protection" turns to lack of freedom.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There are empty pubs, with the buildings for rent, all over the UK because of the smoking ban.
Nice old guys who would have been at the pub with friends are home alone, maybe drinking and smoking alone, maybe dead now, but deprived of their pub-in-old-age experience because of the self-righteous zeal of younger people who want to control other people's lives.
Other old people who owned pubs and could have used that income had to close them.
It seems obvious that this didn't help as many people as it hurt.
I think bars and restaurants should have the option to have smoking or not. Too much "protection" turns to lack of freedom.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 18, 2012, at 2:24 AM, michelle_mcritchie wrote:
Our parents could have been more connected, but I was an introvert so enjoyed the freedom to be alone. There was a lot of freedom to roam. They had expectations but they fit with my own choices. So my childhood was pretty happy. I didn't try smoking. Didn't try drugs. And I drink maybe 3 or 4 bottles of wine a year.
My sister is more of a social introvert. She didn't do as well at school. So her childhood wasn't as good of a match. She tried smoking. She used to smoke pot. She drinks more, though I don't remember seeing her drunk. She's definitely struggled more with finding contentment but not horribly so. Pretty much our contentment matches our addictive substances consumption. ;-)
Carl's parents were similar to mine, more tight reined though more connected. His personality is similar to mine so the match wasn't bad. Carl drank beer starting in high school and through college. Very stereotypical teen behavior. The amount of beer he's drunk over the years pretty much reflects his recovery from control to finding his own contentment. He might drink a couple of six packs a year at this point.
As far as alcohol is concerned, I did the same with Kathryn. She had the freedom to try whatever she wanted at home. She occasionally had a little wine, a little flavored brandy, but generally preferred non-alcoholic drinks.
Her 21st birthday was on the 13th. Despite having a big posse of friends out in Michigan, she chose to come home for it :-) I suggested a tour and tasting at the local fruit winery. She added the suggestion of beer tasting. So we toured the Sam Adams brewery. And that was as heavy as her drinking was while home for 11 days. On her own she had a glass of the fortified wine we bought at the winery. And yesterday morning on her last day she poured a glass of strawberry rhubarb wine to go with the berries and the Russian rum flavored cake she'd bought a few days before. Mostly she ate the berries. Most of the wine was poured back.
She's probably the happiest and most content of us all :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> but has definitely challenged me on my 'old' thoughts to my own children drinking before 18 yrs at home!My parents let my sister and I have sips of their beer and mixed drinks when we were kids. We could have brandy when we came in from skiing when it was really cold. When we went to our grandmother's for Sunday dinner our aunt served us full glasses of wine or mixed drinks. I rarely finished them but I did find the flavors interesting though didn't like the floaty feeling.
Our parents could have been more connected, but I was an introvert so enjoyed the freedom to be alone. There was a lot of freedom to roam. They had expectations but they fit with my own choices. So my childhood was pretty happy. I didn't try smoking. Didn't try drugs. And I drink maybe 3 or 4 bottles of wine a year.
My sister is more of a social introvert. She didn't do as well at school. So her childhood wasn't as good of a match. She tried smoking. She used to smoke pot. She drinks more, though I don't remember seeing her drunk. She's definitely struggled more with finding contentment but not horribly so. Pretty much our contentment matches our addictive substances consumption. ;-)
Carl's parents were similar to mine, more tight reined though more connected. His personality is similar to mine so the match wasn't bad. Carl drank beer starting in high school and through college. Very stereotypical teen behavior. The amount of beer he's drunk over the years pretty much reflects his recovery from control to finding his own contentment. He might drink a couple of six packs a year at this point.
As far as alcohol is concerned, I did the same with Kathryn. She had the freedom to try whatever she wanted at home. She occasionally had a little wine, a little flavored brandy, but generally preferred non-alcoholic drinks.
Her 21st birthday was on the 13th. Despite having a big posse of friends out in Michigan, she chose to come home for it :-) I suggested a tour and tasting at the local fruit winery. She added the suggestion of beer tasting. So we toured the Sam Adams brewery. And that was as heavy as her drinking was while home for 11 days. On her own she had a glass of the fortified wine we bought at the winery. And yesterday morning on her last day she poured a glass of strawberry rhubarb wine to go with the berries and the Russian rum flavored cake she'd bought a few days before. Mostly she ate the berries. Most of the wine was poured back.
She's probably the happiest and most content of us all :-)
Joyce
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marlo_blake
***I think it says some very healthy things about your relationship that she trusts you enough to ask! :-) I think you have a big opportunity to bolster that trust by helping her see what it's like.***
***But now, when my children are young, I make the effort every day to ensure they don't have the damaged sense of self that I had. I build up every day the kind of loving, connected relationship that will allow them to be open with me (as I was not with my mother) about their desire to try something. I support their choices and desires every day so that they feel loved and valued as unique individuals. Something as paltry as a cigarette is nowhere near as powerful as that.***
A while ago, my 7yo son asked if he could try a cigarette; he said he just wanted to see what it was about. I was very shocked & didn't know what to do. I looked online with him to see what cigarettes can do to your body - showed him pics of healthy & unhealthy lungs - I told him that this is what could happen after smoking for a very long time. There was also this video I found that showed what nicotine does to your body as well. He still wanted to try it, so his sister came up with the idea of making a paper cigarette which he smoked, but it did not satisfy him, so I suggested putting the guinea pigs' Timothy hay inside. He lit it up & smoked (& choked), but it gave him an idea of what it was like. Out of curiosity, I tried one myself & was amazed at how real it "seemed" (from what I remember when I tried a cigarette in my college yrs). After that he & his younger sister made paper cigarettes just to watch the smoke come from them for about a month. That was it for him - for now.
I will say, though, that I showed him the pics & video out of fear that he would want to keep smoking, so I was dishonest in my intent to "help" him with his curiosity. I wish I had seen these posts before because reading this has helped me realize what I did & being dishonest out of fear is not something I want to continue - that is not being supportive & it will diminish the trust between me & my children. At the time it was to benefit me (allay the fear of the future) & not him. The two statements above that I quoted are realistic and something I'm working on everyday.
Also, last month my 5yo daughter asked what her uncle was drinking & my sister (his wife) told him that it was soda, so she came up to me & asked if she could have some & I told her that it was Not soda & that it was an adult drink that makes you feel icky. Later I thought to myself, "why did I say that?" that she's probably thinking, "If it makes you feel so icky then why does he keep drinking it?"
So I guess, I would have to ask - what do you do in these two situations? I mean, a teenager can understand the issues about cost of cigs, the social ostracizing, addiction, etc, but how do you approach smoking, alcohol, drugs with young children when they ask about it or want to try it? Again, I want to be truly supportive & trustworthy, so how do I go about it with them at this age? Do I tell my son what I did & tell him that he can smoke a real cigarette & my daughter too with the beer? Do I do a rewind even though these issues came up over a month ago?
Thanks for any suggestions & thanks for another wonderful topic - wow, another eye opener.
***But now, when my children are young, I make the effort every day to ensure they don't have the damaged sense of self that I had. I build up every day the kind of loving, connected relationship that will allow them to be open with me (as I was not with my mother) about their desire to try something. I support their choices and desires every day so that they feel loved and valued as unique individuals. Something as paltry as a cigarette is nowhere near as powerful as that.***
A while ago, my 7yo son asked if he could try a cigarette; he said he just wanted to see what it was about. I was very shocked & didn't know what to do. I looked online with him to see what cigarettes can do to your body - showed him pics of healthy & unhealthy lungs - I told him that this is what could happen after smoking for a very long time. There was also this video I found that showed what nicotine does to your body as well. He still wanted to try it, so his sister came up with the idea of making a paper cigarette which he smoked, but it did not satisfy him, so I suggested putting the guinea pigs' Timothy hay inside. He lit it up & smoked (& choked), but it gave him an idea of what it was like. Out of curiosity, I tried one myself & was amazed at how real it "seemed" (from what I remember when I tried a cigarette in my college yrs). After that he & his younger sister made paper cigarettes just to watch the smoke come from them for about a month. That was it for him - for now.
I will say, though, that I showed him the pics & video out of fear that he would want to keep smoking, so I was dishonest in my intent to "help" him with his curiosity. I wish I had seen these posts before because reading this has helped me realize what I did & being dishonest out of fear is not something I want to continue - that is not being supportive & it will diminish the trust between me & my children. At the time it was to benefit me (allay the fear of the future) & not him. The two statements above that I quoted are realistic and something I'm working on everyday.
Also, last month my 5yo daughter asked what her uncle was drinking & my sister (his wife) told him that it was soda, so she came up to me & asked if she could have some & I told her that it was Not soda & that it was an adult drink that makes you feel icky. Later I thought to myself, "why did I say that?" that she's probably thinking, "If it makes you feel so icky then why does he keep drinking it?"
So I guess, I would have to ask - what do you do in these two situations? I mean, a teenager can understand the issues about cost of cigs, the social ostracizing, addiction, etc, but how do you approach smoking, alcohol, drugs with young children when they ask about it or want to try it? Again, I want to be truly supportive & trustworthy, so how do I go about it with them at this age? Do I tell my son what I did & tell him that he can smoke a real cigarette & my daughter too with the beer? Do I do a rewind even though these issues came up over a month ago?
Thanks for any suggestions & thanks for another wonderful topic - wow, another eye opener.
Meredith
"marlo_blake" <beingfree4meand3@...> wrote:
You could have said "it's not a soda, would you like a soda?" and sidestepped the whole issue without making a fuss. You could have stopped at "adult drink" and waited to see what her reaction was. Sometimes that's enough - especially if your kids have noticed that adults tend to have different preferences than children in terms of flavors. A lot of kids don't like the smell or taste of alcohol, so you could have offered a sniff or a sip. And if she wanted more and you were unsure, you could say something like "I'm not sure how good that stuff is for kids, maybe next time".
It can seem, when you're on the spot like that, that you have to come up with the "right answer" but it's not true. You can say "not this time, I need more information".
Given the way that's stated, I don't think it was a bad thing to do - it's real information about what can happen over time. You offered some information and looked for a compromise which met his interest in the moment. That's a good thing!
I'd wait and see if the subject comes up again. He's only 7 - he has plenty of years of curiosity ahead of him. Even then, don't make a rule in your head that you Have To find him a cigarette the moment he asks for one. Take some time to talk with him, think, look around and see what kinds of options are available.
---Meredith
>> Also, last month my 5yo daughter asked what her uncle was drinking & my sister (his wife) told him that it was soda, so she came up to me & asked if she could have some & I told her that it was Not soda & that it was an adult drink that makes you feel icky.************
You could have said "it's not a soda, would you like a soda?" and sidestepped the whole issue without making a fuss. You could have stopped at "adult drink" and waited to see what her reaction was. Sometimes that's enough - especially if your kids have noticed that adults tend to have different preferences than children in terms of flavors. A lot of kids don't like the smell or taste of alcohol, so you could have offered a sniff or a sip. And if she wanted more and you were unsure, you could say something like "I'm not sure how good that stuff is for kids, maybe next time".
It can seem, when you're on the spot like that, that you have to come up with the "right answer" but it's not true. You can say "not this time, I need more information".
>> I looked online with him to see what cigarettes can do to your body - showed him pics of healthy & unhealthy lungs - I told him that this is what could happen after smoking for a very long time.******************
Given the way that's stated, I don't think it was a bad thing to do - it's real information about what can happen over time. You offered some information and looked for a compromise which met his interest in the moment. That's a good thing!
>Do I tell my son what I did & tell him that he can smoke a real cigarette*************
I'd wait and see if the subject comes up again. He's only 7 - he has plenty of years of curiosity ahead of him. Even then, don't make a rule in your head that you Have To find him a cigarette the moment he asks for one. Take some time to talk with him, think, look around and see what kinds of options are available.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-She then quickly said "Oh I was only joking, oh Mum, you are such a weird parent, that's just really weird" ....
-=-Hmmm so I just said "Ok well if you do want to try just let me know and I will get some for you to try" and then she just continued to mumble how weird I was (actually I think she used the word "Freak" as I left her room).-=-
If you've spent a lot of time creating a situation, it can't be fixed all at once. It will take time for her to trust you, but your part of that is to be open and trustworthy.
And maybe after another try or two, tell her that you hope you've never said "weird" or "freak" to her because it hurts, and you hope she didn't get that from you. (Or not� depends on her, and on the relationship.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Hmmm so I just said "Ok well if you do want to try just let me know and I will get some for you to try" and then she just continued to mumble how weird I was (actually I think she used the word "Freak" as I left her room).-=-
If you've spent a lot of time creating a situation, it can't be fixed all at once. It will take time for her to trust you, but your part of that is to be open and trustworthy.
And maybe after another try or two, tell her that you hope you've never said "weird" or "freak" to her because it hurts, and you hope she didn't get that from you. (Or not� depends on her, and on the relationship.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]