Astra Taylor
joanne morehouse
Hi everyone,
I just watched Astra Taylor's talk on unschooling on the unschooling utube channel. It was good and might be a help for those just exploring the concept of unschooling. It could also be a resource to refer to grandparents, spouses, etc. to who are unfamiliar/uncomfortable with the concept.
I just watched Astra Taylor's talk on unschooling on the unschooling utube channel. It was good and might be a help for those just exploring the concept of unschooling. It could also be a resource to refer to grandparents, spouses, etc. to who are unfamiliar/uncomfortable with the concept.
sheeboo2
Admittedly, I haven't seen this specific video, but what I have read by Astra Taylor leads me to believe that her family was very far removed from the practice of unschooling as is discussed here. From her other descriptions, her parents left her and her siblings alone to find their own way. Her childhood sounds like it was filled with a lot of loneliness and boredom (the reason she decided to go to high school), while her parents pursued their own interests and ideologies at the expense of their children.
She's spent quite a bit of time with Slavoj Zizek though, which makes me very envious.
Brie
She's spent quite a bit of time with Slavoj Zizek though, which makes me very envious.
Brie
[email protected]
I'm curious what led you to surmise that based on her other writings? As someone who has a personal relationship with the Taylors, I seriously doubt that Astra, her siblings, or her parents would agree with that sentiment.
-Dana Briscoe
-Dana Briscoe
joanne morehouse
Hmm, that wasn't the impression I got from her talk. It was a fairly, well rounded lecture about the positive and negative aspects of unschooling, as well as a Q and A after the talk. Her explanation for attending high school had more to do with buying into the expectation that it would be easier to be accepted into universtiy with a diploma (which she later discounts). I still think the talk is a worthwhile watch for anyone interested in unschooling.
Jo
Jo
--- In [email protected], "sheeboo2" <brmino@...> wrote:
>
> Admittedly, I haven't seen this specific video, but what I have read by Astra Taylor leads me to believe that her family was very far removed from the practice of unschooling as is discussed here. From her other descriptions, her parents left her and her siblings alone to find their own way. Her childhood sounds like it was filled with a lot of loneliness and boredom (the reason she decided to go to high school), while her parents pursued their own interests and ideologies at the expense of their children.
>
> She's spent quite a bit of time with Slavoj Zizek though, which makes me very envious.
>
> Brie
>
sheeboo2
---I'm curious what led you to surmise that based on her other writings? As someone who has a personal relationship with the Taylors, I seriously doubt that Astra, her siblings, or her parents would agree with that sentiment.
-Dana Briscoe------
Dana, I'm going off some of the articles she's written and interviews I've read.
Her n+1 article is now only available through purchase, but in it she describes how her parents left her and her siblings alone to "teach themselves" and to find their own way. If they had questions, they were pointed to the shelves of books in the home. If she said she was bored, her mother said, "Only boring people are bored." She writes about how she was often uninspired and spent her days doing little of anything exciting.
There was also an undercurrent of her parents' attachment to the philosophy of anarchy that reminded more of the British "Taking Children Seriously" philosophy than of unschooling as is discussed here. The children's isolation (she uses that word, not me) seems as if it was a choice the parents made from an ideological standpoint without considering what their children wanted and needed. Their world was too small.
Taylor seems like one smart cookie who is doing exactly what she wants with her life. I don't think she's a bad role model, but I also don't think that leaving children to answer their own questions, to "teach themselves" to figure their way through bouts of boredom with belittling comments are in-line with the kind of partnerships encouraged here.
Ah, here's the quote about being bored: http://citizenshift.org/node/21634&dossier_nid=20054
This is one of the places where she said she went to school because she was lonely:
http://stillinmotion.typepad.com/still_in_motion/2008/11/interview-astra-taylor-director-examined-life.html
In talking about her desire to convert the world to veganism:
"By the time I was twelve, I discovered that there might be some flaws in my theory. And then, out of loneliness, I finally went to public school; I'd been unschooled up until that point. When I got to public school, I became friends with kids who weren't from my immediate super weirdo hippy background."
Brie
-Dana Briscoe------
Dana, I'm going off some of the articles she's written and interviews I've read.
Her n+1 article is now only available through purchase, but in it she describes how her parents left her and her siblings alone to "teach themselves" and to find their own way. If they had questions, they were pointed to the shelves of books in the home. If she said she was bored, her mother said, "Only boring people are bored." She writes about how she was often uninspired and spent her days doing little of anything exciting.
There was also an undercurrent of her parents' attachment to the philosophy of anarchy that reminded more of the British "Taking Children Seriously" philosophy than of unschooling as is discussed here. The children's isolation (she uses that word, not me) seems as if it was a choice the parents made from an ideological standpoint without considering what their children wanted and needed. Their world was too small.
Taylor seems like one smart cookie who is doing exactly what she wants with her life. I don't think she's a bad role model, but I also don't think that leaving children to answer their own questions, to "teach themselves" to figure their way through bouts of boredom with belittling comments are in-line with the kind of partnerships encouraged here.
Ah, here's the quote about being bored: http://citizenshift.org/node/21634&dossier_nid=20054
This is one of the places where she said she went to school because she was lonely:
http://stillinmotion.typepad.com/still_in_motion/2008/11/interview-astra-taylor-director-examined-life.html
In talking about her desire to convert the world to veganism:
"By the time I was twelve, I discovered that there might be some flaws in my theory. And then, out of loneliness, I finally went to public school; I'd been unschooled up until that point. When I got to public school, I became friends with kids who weren't from my immediate super weirdo hippy background."
Brie
Pam Sorooshian
On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 9:05 AM, sheeboo2 <brmino@...> wrote:
negativity there, too. There is also a major undermining of the idea that
learning is natural and inevitable if kids are given support and resources
- she talks about parents needing to use reverse psychology to guilt-trip
or pressure the kids into being people who love to learn.
I kind of get that. For those who took this big huge risk of not doing
school, especially before there were very many grown unschoolers, we kind
of have something to prove and our kids ARE our proof. I can see how the
kids could feel pressured to be poster children for unschooling.
I I really hope my own grown unschooled kids don't have that feeling too
much - not enough to say the things Astra says in the quote (below). I
don't think they do, but I'm going to show this article to them and see
what they have to say.
<<<<I don�t think you can unschool half-way. I think you really have to
somehow make your kid believe that it�s all up to them. The trick is that,
it doesn�t mean that your kid is totally free to flower and to grow, it�s
much more reverse psychology. �Not only do you have to learn, but you have
to love to learn.� The message is in a way even more twisted. It�s not,
�You have to read this book and take this test because that�s the way it
is. And you have to get an A or else you�re gonna fail- sorry that�s just
the rules.� Instead it�s, �you have to read that book on our shelf and you
have to read them all out of love because you are just someone who loves to
learn and if you don�t love to learn well then you�re just a loser.� It�s
more complicated motivation. There has to be some element of guilt at work
there. My mom used to always say, �if you�re bored you�re boring.� I didn�t
want to be boring.That isn�t to say that trust isn�t at work there
either�>>>
pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Ah, here's the quote about being bored:Overall, I liked what she said about unschooling. But there is a weird
> http://citizenshift.org/node/21634&dossier_nid=20054
>
negativity there, too. There is also a major undermining of the idea that
learning is natural and inevitable if kids are given support and resources
- she talks about parents needing to use reverse psychology to guilt-trip
or pressure the kids into being people who love to learn.
I kind of get that. For those who took this big huge risk of not doing
school, especially before there were very many grown unschoolers, we kind
of have something to prove and our kids ARE our proof. I can see how the
kids could feel pressured to be poster children for unschooling.
I I really hope my own grown unschooled kids don't have that feeling too
much - not enough to say the things Astra says in the quote (below). I
don't think they do, but I'm going to show this article to them and see
what they have to say.
<<<<I don�t think you can unschool half-way. I think you really have to
somehow make your kid believe that it�s all up to them. The trick is that,
it doesn�t mean that your kid is totally free to flower and to grow, it�s
much more reverse psychology. �Not only do you have to learn, but you have
to love to learn.� The message is in a way even more twisted. It�s not,
�You have to read this book and take this test because that�s the way it
is. And you have to get an A or else you�re gonna fail- sorry that�s just
the rules.� Instead it�s, �you have to read that book on our shelf and you
have to read them all out of love because you are just someone who loves to
learn and if you don�t love to learn well then you�re just a loser.� It�s
more complicated motivation. There has to be some element of guilt at work
there. My mom used to always say, �if you�re bored you�re boring.� I didn�t
want to be boring.That isn�t to say that trust isn�t at work there
either�>>>
pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanne morehouse
In her talk she doesn't go into the coercion aspect (or maybe I was listening to one of the kids, and missed it). I like that she offered both the positives and negatives of unschooling, I think that is important. Everyone experiences life differently-some kids love school and have great experiences, some kids love unschooling some might find it lacking. Astra does say in her talk that each of her siblings might have different assessments of what their experience was like.
As for the boredom issue, I think that might be true. I don't feel that my job as a parent is to always provide stimulation for my kids. They need to learn how to entertain themselves and move past boredom. I will offer some alternatives to do, but if they are discounted then they are on their own.
Jo
As for the boredom issue, I think that might be true. I don't feel that my job as a parent is to always provide stimulation for my kids. They need to learn how to entertain themselves and move past boredom. I will offer some alternatives to do, but if they are discounted then they are on their own.
Jo
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 9:05 AM, sheeboo2 <brmino@...> wrote:
>
> > Ah, here's the quote about being bored:
> > http://citizenshift.org/node/21634&dossier_nid=20054
> >
>
> Overall, I liked what she said about unschooling. But there is a weird
> negativity there, too. There is also a major undermining of the idea that
> learning is natural and inevitable if kids are given support and resources
> - she talks about parents needing to use reverse psychology to guilt-trip
> or pressure the kids into being people who love to learn.
>
> I kind of get that. For those who took this big huge risk of not doing
> school, especially before there were very many grown unschoolers, we kind
> of have something to prove and our kids ARE our proof. I can see how the
> kids could feel pressured to be poster children for unschooling.
>
> I I really hope my own grown unschooled kids don't have that feeling too
> much - not enough to say the things Astra says in the quote (below). I
> don't think they do, but I'm going to show this article to them and see
> what they have to say.
>
> <<<<I don't think you can unschool half-way. I think you really have to
> somehow make your kid believe that it's all up to them. The trick is that,
> it doesn't mean that your kid is totally free to flower and to grow, it's
> much more reverse psychology. "Not only do you have to learn, but you have
> to love to learn." The message is in a way even more twisted. It's not,
> "You have to read this book and take this test because that's the way it
> is. And you have to get an A or else you're gonna fail- sorry that's just
> the rules." Instead it's, "you have to read that book on our shelf and you
> have to read them all out of love because you are just someone who loves to
> learn and if you don't love to learn well then you're just a loser.' It's
> more complicated motivation. There has to be some element of guilt at work
> there. My mom used to always say, "if you're bored you're boring." I didn't
> want to be boring.That isn't to say that trust isn't at work there
> either">>>
>
> pam
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Robin Bentley
> I don't feel that my job as a parent is to always provideI like Sandra's article "Bored No More". It explores the kinds of
> stimulation for my kids. They need to learn how to entertain
> themselves and move past boredom. I will offer some alternatives to
> do, but if they are discounted then they are on their own.
boredom. Partnership with children doesn't always need to be "here, do
this."
http://sandradodd.com/BoredNoMore
Robin B.
Robin Bentley
> I just watched Astra Taylor's talk on unschooling on the unschoolingHmm, it could be a good starting point, I suppose. I'd recommend Pam
> utube channel. It was good and might be a help for those just
> exploring the concept of unschooling. It could also be a resource to
> refer to grandparents, spouses, etc. to who are unfamiliar/
> uncomfortable with the concept.
Laricchia's book "Free to Learn" as an even better way to introduce
unschooling to others. And she's Canadian, too!
>When Astra Taylor was discussed on this list a couple of years ago,
some folks had reservations about what she was saying. Her parents'
lack of support for her interests doesn't really fit with the
philosophy discussed here. This, from Glenda (wtexans), summed it up
for me.
******************************
Re: "Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch."
From this interview: http://citizenshift.org/node/21634&dossier_nid=20054
, I'm
quoting the interviewee, Astra Taylor: ===What I would have loved is
to be an
unschooling in an urban environment where you could go to art museums
and take
awesome classes about film making when you're a kid because then you
could have
all the richness and all the social interaction but just none of the
bullshit
which would be the best of both worlds.===
Lisa said: ===So, even if a parent is supportive, embracing of a child's
interests, trusts the child's ability to learn, etc. etc., it may be
that *that*
child still will feel the need to escape from or be free of parents
and family
once they hit their teens and twenties.===
As others have said, I don't see her parents as having been supportive
or
embracing of her interests (based on what Astra said in the
interview), and it's
not the kind of unschooling promoted on this list.
If an unschooled kid is wanting to be in a more urban environment and
to have
access to art museums and film-making resources (classes certainly
aren't the
*only* option), a supportive parent would find ways to make that
happen. Perhaps
by moving to a more urban area, or making frequent trips to "the big
city". By
searching out resources for learning different ways to make films.
Finding ways
for that child to have the kind of social interaction they want
without school
being the only option for that (as it seemed to be for Astra).
From what Astra said, her wants weren't being met through
unschooling, and that
comes through in the opinion she's formed of unschooling. Think about
how much
richer of an experience unschooling could've been for her if she had
been
supported in the way we define "unschooling" on this list.
**********************************
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I like that she offered both the positives and negatives of unschooling, I think that is important.-=-
The negatives she mentioned didn't exist in my house while my kids were growing up.
-=-As for the boredom issue, I think that might be true. I don't feel that my job as a parent is to always provide stimulation for my kids. They need to learn how to entertain themselves and move past boredom. I will offer some alternatives to do, but if they are discounted then they are on their own. -=-
I disagree with this in the extreme. If your life is such that the kids "need to learn to entertain themselves" then unschooling isn't going to work well for you.
http://sandradodd.com/boredom has links to several articles and some definitions and ideas about boredom.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The negatives she mentioned didn't exist in my house while my kids were growing up.
-=-As for the boredom issue, I think that might be true. I don't feel that my job as a parent is to always provide stimulation for my kids. They need to learn how to entertain themselves and move past boredom. I will offer some alternatives to do, but if they are discounted then they are on their own. -=-
I disagree with this in the extreme. If your life is such that the kids "need to learn to entertain themselves" then unschooling isn't going to work well for you.
http://sandradodd.com/boredom has links to several articles and some definitions and ideas about boredom.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
teresa
--- In [email protected], "joanne morehouse" <joanne.morehouse@...> wrote:
My own head is in the best space when I think of unschooling not as providing constant stimulation but rather as doing fun stuff with my boys or tossing around interesting ideas, books, objects, etc., as it seems that those offerings would be welcome. In other words, it's not a drudgery or an unending obligation, but rather a pleasure and a choice. If I start to feel bogged down or uninspired or like a song-and-dance mom instead of collaborator, then I know I need to step back, get clear on my long-term goals, do a little bit more reading, and maybe arrange for an outing with other parents and other kids so that my kids can get some of their needs met by people besides me.
I don't always land on activities, games, toys, etc. that are "hits." Sometimes, they're not picked up by my kids. But it hasn't worked out well for us for me to offer a certain number and then tell them they're on their own. It especially hasn't worked out well for us if, after offering options, I get frustrated or resentful about all those no thank you's.
It has worked for me to either keep working with them to figure out what their needs and wants are and how we might satisfy them, or to sit with them and their boredom. I don't see it as that they "need to learn how to entertain themselves and move past boredom," but rather to recognize that feeling uninspired, at loose ends, unsettled, peevish or disgruntled is OK, too. I feel those feelings. Sometimes, those feelings just need to show up, hang with us a while, and then we move on. And other times, those feelings can be catalysts for us to try something new or different. And while I guess you could say that's a life lesson--to learn how to sit with boredom or to get one's own needs met--I've found that I and my children like it much better when life lessons are learned with lots of support and empathy rather than each of us on our own.
Teresa
mama to Woody, 6 1/2, and Fox, 3 1/2
>I think there's a lot of ground between "always providing stimulation" for kids and kids being "on their own." I would consider the job of "always providing stimulation" as being draining!
> As for the boredom issue, I think that might be true. I don't feel that my job as a parent is to always provide stimulation for my kids. They need to learn how to entertain themselves and move past boredom. I will offer some alternatives to do, but if they are discounted then they are on their own.
>
> Jo
>
My own head is in the best space when I think of unschooling not as providing constant stimulation but rather as doing fun stuff with my boys or tossing around interesting ideas, books, objects, etc., as it seems that those offerings would be welcome. In other words, it's not a drudgery or an unending obligation, but rather a pleasure and a choice. If I start to feel bogged down or uninspired or like a song-and-dance mom instead of collaborator, then I know I need to step back, get clear on my long-term goals, do a little bit more reading, and maybe arrange for an outing with other parents and other kids so that my kids can get some of their needs met by people besides me.
I don't always land on activities, games, toys, etc. that are "hits." Sometimes, they're not picked up by my kids. But it hasn't worked out well for us for me to offer a certain number and then tell them they're on their own. It especially hasn't worked out well for us if, after offering options, I get frustrated or resentful about all those no thank you's.
It has worked for me to either keep working with them to figure out what their needs and wants are and how we might satisfy them, or to sit with them and their boredom. I don't see it as that they "need to learn how to entertain themselves and move past boredom," but rather to recognize that feeling uninspired, at loose ends, unsettled, peevish or disgruntled is OK, too. I feel those feelings. Sometimes, those feelings just need to show up, hang with us a while, and then we move on. And other times, those feelings can be catalysts for us to try something new or different. And while I guess you could say that's a life lesson--to learn how to sit with boredom or to get one's own needs met--I've found that I and my children like it much better when life lessons are learned with lots of support and empathy rather than each of us on our own.
Teresa
mama to Woody, 6 1/2, and Fox, 3 1/2
Dana
Brie,
I hear you and now can see why you deduced what you did. For me, I contextualized her comments differently probably due to knowing them and having experienced their family dynamics. I would say her isolation and loneliness was not *within* her family but within her community, which was more limited than we can imagine in our current homeschooling/unschooling climate.
Astra is in her 30s so when she unschooled it was a vastly different landscape than it is now. I have always understood that she went to high school because that is where her intellectual peers spent their days.(she also mentions not having role models at the time that hadn't graduated high school.) She didn't have the wide-ranging net of friends that our children do thanks to the internet. Her parents did not have unschooling communities handily available with whom they could share experiences and ideas like we do now with list serves and email.
There were homeschoolers around our town but they were the school-at-home, overtly christian variety, so in that sense, I think the whole family felt isolated and lonely, not just Astra. (There was a vibrant creative community of artists and thinkers - just not necessarily homeschoolers)
She talks about her parents creating a learning environment and facilitating them in their interests, but not guiding them per se. To me, that is the type of unschooling this list does address. Here is a quote from the article you linked to:
"What they did is, I always envision it as this sort of nutrient rich broth, and they put us in it and we grew in that. So tons of books, books on everything books on horticulture, mysticism, science, everything you could imagineâ" and this was not the age of google so there was no Internet. We always had a piano, guitars, and drums. We always had pens and papers and paint. Anything you could want to create or make was there. There just wasnât formal instruction to go with it. And itâs not to say that you couldnât ask mom and dad for help⦠if I hit some sort of empass I could always say, âDad could you help me figure this thing on piano.â They werenât really guiding, they were more facilitating⦠helping us to figure out what is it we wanted to do."
In this article:
http://www.school-survival.net/blog/p/astra-taylor-flimmaker-talks-about-unschooling/1414
She advises people interested in unschooling to,"Have complete trust in your child. It's actually really hard. A lot of parents micromanage. Our parents tried not to interfere with our natural progression, not that they didn't set up an interesting environment. They trusted our intuition when we were interested in things they aren't. You don't get to choose what your children are interested in."
I don't think this is neglect. This is staying out-of-their way and supporting and facilitating the interests they have on their own.
I experienced The Taylors as a family that created music, science, art and had incredibly rich and thought-provoking conversations with each other and within a larger creative community. The parents facilitated computer building projects, finding mentors, making and distributing xeroxed zines, activism, etc. for and with their children. They continue to be a loving, tight-knit family with all their children in adulthood.
I think that these nuanced aspects of their unschooling experience may not come across in some of Astra's writings to those people who have anecdotal and/or philosophical familiarity with unschooling. I'm imagining some of her blanket statements are geared more to those people completely unfamiliar to unschooling as a concept, and she is introducing the idea of internal motivation for gaining knowledge. That is conjecture on my part however.
Thanks for the discussion.
-Dana
I hear you and now can see why you deduced what you did. For me, I contextualized her comments differently probably due to knowing them and having experienced their family dynamics. I would say her isolation and loneliness was not *within* her family but within her community, which was more limited than we can imagine in our current homeschooling/unschooling climate.
Astra is in her 30s so when she unschooled it was a vastly different landscape than it is now. I have always understood that she went to high school because that is where her intellectual peers spent their days.(she also mentions not having role models at the time that hadn't graduated high school.) She didn't have the wide-ranging net of friends that our children do thanks to the internet. Her parents did not have unschooling communities handily available with whom they could share experiences and ideas like we do now with list serves and email.
There were homeschoolers around our town but they were the school-at-home, overtly christian variety, so in that sense, I think the whole family felt isolated and lonely, not just Astra. (There was a vibrant creative community of artists and thinkers - just not necessarily homeschoolers)
She talks about her parents creating a learning environment and facilitating them in their interests, but not guiding them per se. To me, that is the type of unschooling this list does address. Here is a quote from the article you linked to:
"What they did is, I always envision it as this sort of nutrient rich broth, and they put us in it and we grew in that. So tons of books, books on everything books on horticulture, mysticism, science, everything you could imagineâ" and this was not the age of google so there was no Internet. We always had a piano, guitars, and drums. We always had pens and papers and paint. Anything you could want to create or make was there. There just wasnât formal instruction to go with it. And itâs not to say that you couldnât ask mom and dad for help⦠if I hit some sort of empass I could always say, âDad could you help me figure this thing on piano.â They werenât really guiding, they were more facilitating⦠helping us to figure out what is it we wanted to do."
In this article:
http://www.school-survival.net/blog/p/astra-taylor-flimmaker-talks-about-unschooling/1414
She advises people interested in unschooling to,"Have complete trust in your child. It's actually really hard. A lot of parents micromanage. Our parents tried not to interfere with our natural progression, not that they didn't set up an interesting environment. They trusted our intuition when we were interested in things they aren't. You don't get to choose what your children are interested in."
I don't think this is neglect. This is staying out-of-their way and supporting and facilitating the interests they have on their own.
I experienced The Taylors as a family that created music, science, art and had incredibly rich and thought-provoking conversations with each other and within a larger creative community. The parents facilitated computer building projects, finding mentors, making and distributing xeroxed zines, activism, etc. for and with their children. They continue to be a loving, tight-knit family with all their children in adulthood.
I think that these nuanced aspects of their unschooling experience may not come across in some of Astra's writings to those people who have anecdotal and/or philosophical familiarity with unschooling. I'm imagining some of her blanket statements are geared more to those people completely unfamiliar to unschooling as a concept, and she is introducing the idea of internal motivation for gaining knowledge. That is conjecture on my part however.
Thanks for the discussion.
-Dana
--- In [email protected], "sheeboo2" <brmino@...> wrote:
>
> ---I'm curious what led you to surmise that based on her other writings? As someone who has a personal relationship with the Taylors, I seriously doubt that Astra, her siblings, or her parents would agree with that sentiment.
> -Dana Briscoe------
>
> Dana, I'm going off some of the articles she's written and interviews I've read.
>
> Her n+1 article is now only available through purchase, but in it she describes how her parents left her and her siblings alone to "teach themselves" and to find their own way. If they had questions, they were pointed to the shelves of books in the home. If she said she was bored, her mother said, "Only boring people are bored." She writes about how she was often uninspired and spent her days doing little of anything exciting.
>
> There was also an undercurrent of her parents' attachment to the philosophy of anarchy that reminded more of the British "Taking Children Seriously" philosophy than of unschooling as is discussed here. The children's isolation (she uses that word, not me) seems as if it was a choice the parents made from an ideological standpoint without considering what their children wanted and needed. Their world was too small.
>
> Taylor seems like one smart cookie who is doing exactly what she wants with her life. I don't think she's a bad role model, but I also don't think that leaving children to answer their own questions, to "teach themselves" to figure their way through bouts of boredom with belittling comments are in-line with the kind of partnerships encouraged here.
>
> Ah, here's the quote about being bored: http://citizenshift.org/node/21634&dossier_nid=20054
>
> This is one of the places where she said she went to school because she was lonely:
> http://stillinmotion.typepad.com/still_in_motion/2008/11/interview-astra-taylor-director-examined-life.html
>
> In talking about her desire to convert the world to veganism:
>
> "By the time I was twelve, I discovered that there might be some flaws in my theory. And then, out of loneliness, I finally went to public school; I'd been unschooled up until that point. When I got to public school, I became friends with kids who weren't from my immediate super weirdo hippy background."
>
> Brie
>
Robin Bentley
>Ack, I spliced two sentences together to make nonsense.
> Partnership with children doesn't always need to be "here, do
> this."
>
It should be: Partnership with children isn't "here, do this."
Robin B.
joanne morehouse
Your pronouncement that unschooling won't work for my family is a little harsh Sandra. Perhaps I should re-phrase my comment to say that I try my best to support the kids when they are bored and get to the bottom of the issue. In life we are all bored and it is a coping skill to move past that into something else, I try my best to aid my kids to get to that point. I guess I came off as sort of cavalier.
As for the negatives in Astra's talk, I find sometimes that in talking about unschooling we tend to only focus on the positives and for those of us who have faced difficulties or have faced negatives it is good to hear that others have as well.
Peace,
Jo
As for the negatives in Astra's talk, I find sometimes that in talking about unschooling we tend to only focus on the positives and for those of us who have faced difficulties or have faced negatives it is good to hear that others have as well.
Peace,
Jo
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I like that she offered both the positives and negatives of unschooling, I think that is important.-=-
>
> The negatives she mentioned didn't exist in my house while my kids were growing up.
>
> -=-As for the boredom issue, I think that might be true. I don't feel that my job as a parent is to always provide stimulation for my kids. They need to learn how to entertain themselves and move past boredom. I will offer some alternatives to do, but if they are discounted then they are on their own. -=-
>
> I disagree with this in the extreme. If your life is such that the kids "need to learn to entertain themselves" then unschooling isn't going to work well for you.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/boredom has links to several articles and some definitions and ideas about boredom.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jenny Cyphers
***If I start to feel bogged down or uninspired or like a song-and-dance mom instead of collaborator, then I know I need to step back, get clear on my long-term goals, do a little bit more reading, and maybe arrange for an outing with other parents and other kids so that my kids can get some of their needs met by people besides me. ***
I can't even describe how many times that has been our life! It's a perfect description of the little dance that happens day to day with kids around all the time!
And this too...
***I don't see it as that they "need to learn how to entertain themselves and move past boredom," but rather to recognize that feeling uninspired, at loose ends, unsettled, peevish or disgruntled is OK, too. I feel those feelings. Sometimes, those feelings just need to show up, hang with us a while, and then we move on. And other times, those feelings can be catalysts for us to try something new or different. And while I guess you could say that's a life lesson--to learn how to sit with boredom or to get one's own needs met--I've found that I and my children like it much better when life lessons are learned with lots of support and empathy rather than each of us on our own.***
My oldest daughter is 18 and she has been, more and more lately doing this on her own. It's a subtle shift from relying more on her parents for support and sympathy to her friends and herself. It's really cool to watch happen as she moves into adult life. I think because we've been there for her when she's been at loose ends, unsettled, peevish or disgruntled, and we've helped her move out of those spaces, she's become rather adept at doing so herself and helping others do that too, even me!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I can't even describe how many times that has been our life! It's a perfect description of the little dance that happens day to day with kids around all the time!
And this too...
***I don't see it as that they "need to learn how to entertain themselves and move past boredom," but rather to recognize that feeling uninspired, at loose ends, unsettled, peevish or disgruntled is OK, too. I feel those feelings. Sometimes, those feelings just need to show up, hang with us a while, and then we move on. And other times, those feelings can be catalysts for us to try something new or different. And while I guess you could say that's a life lesson--to learn how to sit with boredom or to get one's own needs met--I've found that I and my children like it much better when life lessons are learned with lots of support and empathy rather than each of us on our own.***
My oldest daughter is 18 and she has been, more and more lately doing this on her own. It's a subtle shift from relying more on her parents for support and sympathy to her friends and herself. It's really cool to watch happen as she moves into adult life. I think because we've been there for her when she's been at loose ends, unsettled, peevish or disgruntled, and we've helped her move out of those spaces, she's become rather adept at doing so herself and helping others do that too, even me!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanne morehouse
I agree Robin and apologize. I was being very cavalier in my comments.
I do try and help my kids find a place past boredom. I guess I was responding to the earlier comments about Astra's talk. You make valid points in your reply about empathizing with kids to deal with being bored. I would like to always do this, but as an imperfect person, sometimes I just want to work on my own stuff and not theirs ; )
Jo
I do try and help my kids find a place past boredom. I guess I was responding to the earlier comments about Astra's talk. You make valid points in your reply about empathizing with kids to deal with being bored. I would like to always do this, but as an imperfect person, sometimes I just want to work on my own stuff and not theirs ; )
Jo
--- In [email protected], Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> ***If I start to feel bogged down or uninspired or like a song-and-dance mom instead of collaborator, then I know I need to step back, get clear on my long-term goals, do a little bit more reading, and maybe arrange for an outing with other parents and other kids so that my kids can get some of their needs met by people besides me. ***
>
>
> I can't even describe how many times that has been our life! It's a perfect description of the little dance that happens day to day with kids around all the time!
>
> And this too...
>
> ***I don't see it as that they "need to learn how to entertain themselves and move past boredom," but rather to recognize that feeling uninspired, at loose ends, unsettled, peevish or disgruntled is OK, too. I feel those feelings. Sometimes, those feelings just need to show up, hang with us a while, and then we move on. And other times, those feelings can be catalysts for us to try something new or different. And while I guess you could say that's a life lesson--to learn how to sit with boredom or to get one's own needs met--I've found that I and my children like it much better when life lessons are learned with lots of support and empathy rather than each of us on our own.***
>
> My oldest daughter is 18 and she has been, more and more lately doing this on her own. It's a subtle shift from relying more on her parents for support and sympathy to her friends and herself. It's really cool to watch happen as she moves into adult life. I think because we've been there for her when she's been at loose ends, unsettled, peevish or disgruntled, and we've helped her move out of those spaces, she's become rather adept at doing so herself and helping others do that too, even me!
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jenny Cyphers
***I find sometimes that in talking about unschooling we tend to only focus on the positives and for those of us who have faced difficulties or have faced negatives it is good to hear that others have as well. ***
I don't know that I agree with that. I haven't found it particularly useful to hear that other people have faced negatives. I think everyone in the world experiences that, it's simply a part of life. The way I see unschooling, is that it IS positive and it creates MORE positives without creating negatives. If there are negatives in life, it isn't the unschooling. So, if I'm experiencing something negative in life it is very useful to me to read and write about the positives of unschooling to get that positive perspective back into the forefront of my life!
Nothing sucks more, for me, when reading about unschooling, than someone writing negative pooh with an unschooling slant.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't know that I agree with that. I haven't found it particularly useful to hear that other people have faced negatives. I think everyone in the world experiences that, it's simply a part of life. The way I see unschooling, is that it IS positive and it creates MORE positives without creating negatives. If there are negatives in life, it isn't the unschooling. So, if I'm experiencing something negative in life it is very useful to me to read and write about the positives of unschooling to get that positive perspective back into the forefront of my life!
Nothing sucks more, for me, when reading about unschooling, than someone writing negative pooh with an unschooling slant.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think that these nuanced aspects of their unschooling experience may not come across in some of Astra's writings to those people who have anecdotal and/or philosophical familiarity with unschooling. I'm imagining some of her blanket statements are geared more to those people completely unfamiliar to unschooling as a concept, and she is introducing the idea of internal motivation for gaining knowledge. That is conjecture on my part however.-=-
Probably.
So that means it's not a good resource for families who do have a serious interest in moving toward unschooling.
-=- I would say her isolation and loneliness was not *within* her family but within her community, which was more limited than we can imagine in our current homeschooling/unschooling climate.-=-
A family needs to figure out how to provide a learning environment within the family.
We can only work within the current homeschooling/unschooling climate.
-=-Astra is in her 30s so when she unschooled it was a vastly different landscape than it is now. I have always understood that she went to high school because that is where her intellectual peers spent their days.-=-
Yes, things were different then.
My children's intellectual peers were not in high school. They were in gaming stores, and at anime clubs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Probably.
So that means it's not a good resource for families who do have a serious interest in moving toward unschooling.
-=- I would say her isolation and loneliness was not *within* her family but within her community, which was more limited than we can imagine in our current homeschooling/unschooling climate.-=-
A family needs to figure out how to provide a learning environment within the family.
We can only work within the current homeschooling/unschooling climate.
-=-Astra is in her 30s so when she unschooled it was a vastly different landscape than it is now. I have always understood that she went to high school because that is where her intellectual peers spent their days.-=-
Yes, things were different then.
My children's intellectual peers were not in high school. They were in gaming stores, and at anime clubs.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Your pronouncement that unschooling won't work for my family is a little harsh Sandra.-=-
Did I say "Unschooling won't work for your family"?
-=- Perhaps I should re-phrase my comment to say that I try my best to support the kids when they are bored and get to the bottom of the issue. -=-
Would you be rephrasing it in an attempt to earn approval from people here?
I think it's better to stick with what you first said, and look at why you might have written that.
-=-In life we are all bored and it is a coping skill to move past that into something else, I try my best to aid my kids to get to that point. -=-
It has been years and years since I was bored.
My children are not bored.
I don't think people should learn to cope with boredom, especially if they live with others who love them. And a child whose parents have chosen to have him home instead of in school should be actively and constantly providing an interesting environment, and outings, and sparkling conversation, fun food, nice music.
What I wote was not that unschooling won't work for your family. I think it can work well, if you change your beliefs and practices, and your personal definition of boredom.
I wrote -=-If your life is such that the kids "need to learn to entertain themselves" then unschooling isn't going to work well for you.-=-
Two qualifiers there. "If� then" and "to work well."
Please don't misrepresent what's written. The purpose of the discussion is to examine what people bring here for the benefit of all the readers, not for the comfort of the posters. You don't need to post anything, but if you do post, the ideas are on the table for comment.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Did I say "Unschooling won't work for your family"?
-=- Perhaps I should re-phrase my comment to say that I try my best to support the kids when they are bored and get to the bottom of the issue. -=-
Would you be rephrasing it in an attempt to earn approval from people here?
I think it's better to stick with what you first said, and look at why you might have written that.
-=-In life we are all bored and it is a coping skill to move past that into something else, I try my best to aid my kids to get to that point. -=-
It has been years and years since I was bored.
My children are not bored.
I don't think people should learn to cope with boredom, especially if they live with others who love them. And a child whose parents have chosen to have him home instead of in school should be actively and constantly providing an interesting environment, and outings, and sparkling conversation, fun food, nice music.
What I wote was not that unschooling won't work for your family. I think it can work well, if you change your beliefs and practices, and your personal definition of boredom.
I wrote -=-If your life is such that the kids "need to learn to entertain themselves" then unschooling isn't going to work well for you.-=-
Two qualifiers there. "If� then" and "to work well."
Please don't misrepresent what's written. The purpose of the discussion is to examine what people bring here for the benefit of all the readers, not for the comfort of the posters. You don't need to post anything, but if you do post, the ideas are on the table for comment.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanne morehouse
Sandra, I'm not seeking your approval or anyone else's, just trying to not misrepresent myself. I know why I said the comment about boredom. It was in response to a previous post regarding a comment in the Taylor video. Ms. Taylor's parent's told their kids that only boring people were bored and to find something to do. I'm sure it was an off the cuff remark, as was mine, and not meant to be a summation of their unschooling belief's.
Kudo's to you and your kids for not being bored! Sometimes, in my house, we are. I welcome dialogue on unschooling and parenting. I'm not a perfect parent and I often ask my kids to find something to do, other times we work together. There isn't always sparking conversation and fascinating field trips, but there are days when there is a plethora of this. We're all trying to find our way.
Jo
Kudo's to you and your kids for not being bored! Sometimes, in my house, we are. I welcome dialogue on unschooling and parenting. I'm not a perfect parent and I often ask my kids to find something to do, other times we work together. There isn't always sparking conversation and fascinating field trips, but there are days when there is a plethora of this. We're all trying to find our way.
Jo
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Your pronouncement that unschooling won't work for my family is a little harsh Sandra.-=-
>
> Did I say "Unschooling won't work for your family"?
>
> -=- Perhaps I should re-phrase my comment to say that I try my best to support the kids when they are bored and get to the bottom of the issue. -=-
>
> Would you be rephrasing it in an attempt to earn approval from people here?
> I think it's better to stick with what you first said, and look at why you might have written that.
>
> -=-In life we are all bored and it is a coping skill to move past that into something else, I try my best to aid my kids to get to that point. -=-
>
> It has been years and years since I was bored.
> My children are not bored.
>
> I don't think people should learn to cope with boredom, especially if they live with others who love them. And a child whose parents have chosen to have him home instead of in school should be actively and constantly providing an interesting environment, and outings, and sparkling conversation, fun food, nice music.
>
> What I wote was not that unschooling won't work for your family. I think it can work well, if you change your beliefs and practices, and your personal definition of boredom.
>
> I wrote -=-If your life is such that the kids "need to learn to entertain themselves" then unschooling isn't going to work well for you.-=-
>
> Two qualifiers there. "If then" and "to work well."
>
> Please don't misrepresent what's written. The purpose of the discussion is to examine what people bring here for the benefit of all the readers, not for the comfort of the posters. You don't need to post anything, but if you do post, the ideas are on the table for comment.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-We're all trying to find our way. -=-
Statements like this, when generalized to all people, are not helpful.
To your last general statement, I had clarified that it didn't apply to me or my children. You had written: "In life we are all bored�"
NOT all people are bored.
NOT all people are trying to find their way.
Please discuss unschooling in such ways that it will be helpful to others reading.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Statements like this, when generalized to all people, are not helpful.
To your last general statement, I had clarified that it didn't apply to me or my children. You had written: "In life we are all bored�"
NOT all people are bored.
NOT all people are trying to find their way.
Please discuss unschooling in such ways that it will be helpful to others reading.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
What we do when we're not at our best isn't the best way to describe what
unschooling is, though. When kids are bored, there is a problem. It isn't
natural. And unschooling parents should be thinking about it and helping
with it and trying to figure out how and why it came about in the first
place. If it is that they don't have enough going on - if the kid is tired
of the same old options, then unschooling parents should be thinking about
what might sparkle things up for their kid. Sometimes it is that a kid has
gotten to the end of a phase of interest in something but hasn't figure out
what next to do - again, parents should be helpful, not tell the child that
only boring people are bored or send the kid off to figure it out for
themselves. Sometimes kids say "bored" when they are actually unhappy -
dissatisfied with their current lives in some way. That is important for
the parent to recognize and help with.
Do parents sometimes blow it and not live up to the ideal? Of course. But
is that something to be held up as what unschooling is? Brushing kids off
is not unschooling. Quite the opposite. It is a failing - that we ALL fail
at times doesn't make it good. But many people misunderstand unschooling
and think it means leaving kids on their own and I think, overall, Astra's
description of it contributes to that misunderstanding.
As much as I liked some of the imagery Astra used, I don't think the
overall impression matched the attentive-and-involved parenting that I
think unschooling needs.
-pam
On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 12:39 PM, joanne morehouse <joanne.morehouse@...
unschooling is, though. When kids are bored, there is a problem. It isn't
natural. And unschooling parents should be thinking about it and helping
with it and trying to figure out how and why it came about in the first
place. If it is that they don't have enough going on - if the kid is tired
of the same old options, then unschooling parents should be thinking about
what might sparkle things up for their kid. Sometimes it is that a kid has
gotten to the end of a phase of interest in something but hasn't figure out
what next to do - again, parents should be helpful, not tell the child that
only boring people are bored or send the kid off to figure it out for
themselves. Sometimes kids say "bored" when they are actually unhappy -
dissatisfied with their current lives in some way. That is important for
the parent to recognize and help with.
Do parents sometimes blow it and not live up to the ideal? Of course. But
is that something to be held up as what unschooling is? Brushing kids off
is not unschooling. Quite the opposite. It is a failing - that we ALL fail
at times doesn't make it good. But many people misunderstand unschooling
and think it means leaving kids on their own and I think, overall, Astra's
description of it contributes to that misunderstanding.
As much as I liked some of the imagery Astra used, I don't think the
overall impression matched the attentive-and-involved parenting that I
think unschooling needs.
-pam
On Mon, Jul 16, 2012 at 12:39 PM, joanne morehouse <joanne.morehouse@...
> wrote:[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Kudo's to you and your kids for not being bored! Sometimes, in my house,
> we are. I welcome dialogue on unschooling and parenting. I'm not a perfect
> parent and I often ask my kids to find something to do, other times we work
> together. There isn't always sparking conversation and fascinating field
> trips, but there are days when there is a plethora of this. We're all
> trying to find our way.
Jenny Cyphers
-=-In life we are all bored and it is a coping skill to move past that into something else, I try my best to aid my kids to get to that point. -=-
***It has been years and years since I was bored.
My children are not bored.***
That's been my experience too! I haven't been bored in years and years! Chamille says she could never be bored, that even if it seems like she is doing nothing, she's not bored. Margaux does say she is bored sometimes, but usually it's something else other than boredom that makes her feel the way she feels and it comes across as boredom, generally it's because there is something she wants that she isn't getting in that moment and she isn't able to move on and away from that thought so anything else is boring compared to that. To me, that's more discontent. Discontent is something we try to avoid but it does happen on occasion!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***It has been years and years since I was bored.
My children are not bored.***
That's been my experience too! I haven't been bored in years and years! Chamille says she could never be bored, that even if it seems like she is doing nothing, she's not bored. Margaux does say she is bored sometimes, but usually it's something else other than boredom that makes her feel the way she feels and it comes across as boredom, generally it's because there is something she wants that she isn't getting in that moment and she isn't able to move on and away from that thought so anything else is boring compared to that. To me, that's more discontent. Discontent is something we try to avoid but it does happen on occasion!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"teresa" <treesock@...> wrote:
I liked this whole post.
My daughter spends long periods of time each day immersed in her various projects, but then flounders a bit during the transition from one thing to another. She gets bored and frustrated, not knowing what she wants to do next, nothing sounding interesting. It has taken some work for me to begin to understand when to offer and when to sit with her - and really, that's been a slow communicative process. She doesn't always know if she wants me to offer something, hang out with her, or back off and let her figure it out on her own! It's something we're learning together.
---Meredith
>> It has worked for me to either keep working with them to figure out what their needs and wants are and how we might satisfy them, or to sit with them and their boredom. I don't see it as that they "need to learn how to entertain themselves and move past boredom," but rather to recognize that feeling uninspired, at loose ends, unsettled, peevish or disgruntled is OK, too.***************
I liked this whole post.
My daughter spends long periods of time each day immersed in her various projects, but then flounders a bit during the transition from one thing to another. She gets bored and frustrated, not knowing what she wants to do next, nothing sounding interesting. It has taken some work for me to begin to understand when to offer and when to sit with her - and really, that's been a slow communicative process. She doesn't always know if she wants me to offer something, hang out with her, or back off and let her figure it out on her own! It's something we're learning together.
---Meredith
joanne morehouse
Actually, I was referring to my own family when I said we're all trying to find our (unschooling) way ( but I feel that as humans we usually are trying to find our way whatever way that is), as for the second statement you are right that is a generalization and maybe isn't helpful; it's just been my experience.
Jo
Jo
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-We're all trying to find our way. -=-
>
> Statements like this, when generalized to all people, are not helpful.
>
> To your last general statement, I had clarified that it didn't apply to me or my children. You had written: "In life we are all bored "
>
> NOT all people are bored.
> NOT all people are trying to find their way.
>
> Please discuss unschooling in such ways that it will be helpful to others reading.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>