Stepping in the SECOND hornet's nest
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<< Have any of you
folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? >>
Yes.
<<When you talk to
them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
terms?>>
Lately, but not earlier.
And we ALWAYS leave open the possibility that they won't partner up or marry
at all. We don't say "When you get married" but "if you were to..."
<<Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian. >>
No.
When the boys were babies Keith and I used to joke that we might as well give
up the old American sterotypes and go with the new stats--that one of them
would be gay and one would marry an Asian. New Mexico has more mixed
marriages than most other places in the world, probably, so very little would
surprise or dismay us. It dismayed and surprised me that I married an anglo,
after my first several serious boyfriends who weren't.
It helped the discussions that we had a very pink neighbor boy. At first
we only knew his mom. Later I met his dad and his dad's partner. I think
there was a genetic factor. The best quote about the neighbor came from
Kirby when he was five or so. He had expressed some jealous irritation that
it seemed that the boy was particularly liking a girl across the street, and
she wouldn't play with Kirby as much. I said without thinking "I didn't
think AJ liked girls."
With all honest plainness, Kirby said, "Of course he likes girls. Why else
would he want to be Kimberly when we play Power Rangers?"
I didn't crack up. Not right then. I still crack up sometimes now.
Sandra
folks thought about what if your kids are gay or lesbian? >>
Yes.
<<When you talk to
them about potential mates or futures, do you use exclusively heterosexual
terms?>>
Lately, but not earlier.
And we ALWAYS leave open the possibility that they won't partner up or marry
at all. We don't say "When you get married" but "if you were to..."
<<Would it bother you if your child WERE gay or lesbian. >>
No.
When the boys were babies Keith and I used to joke that we might as well give
up the old American sterotypes and go with the new stats--that one of them
would be gay and one would marry an Asian. New Mexico has more mixed
marriages than most other places in the world, probably, so very little would
surprise or dismay us. It dismayed and surprised me that I married an anglo,
after my first several serious boyfriends who weren't.
It helped the discussions that we had a very pink neighbor boy. At first
we only knew his mom. Later I met his dad and his dad's partner. I think
there was a genetic factor. The best quote about the neighbor came from
Kirby when he was five or so. He had expressed some jealous irritation that
it seemed that the boy was particularly liking a girl across the street, and
she wouldn't play with Kirby as much. I said without thinking "I didn't
think AJ liked girls."
With all honest plainness, Kirby said, "Of course he likes girls. Why else
would he want to be Kimberly when we play Power Rangers?"
I didn't crack up. Not right then. I still crack up sometimes now.
Sandra
Nancy Wooton
on 12/14/01 7:04 AM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:
way out. This seems like a good list for it, as it certainly falls under
"Always Learning."
There is a program on The Discovery Channel called "Assignment: Discovery."
We watch it in the morning, and often use it as a jumping-off point for
discussion, a trip to the library, etc. This week, the topic has been human
genetics. One day, they showed the separated twins research that has been
going on for many years. It shows how the personality, as well as physical
traits, are inherited: two girls, for instance, one raised in wealth and
with the "best" parenting, the other in poverty and neglect, nonetheless
developed the same mental pathologies and learning disablilities.
Upbringing had nothing to do with it. And so on.
What was surprising to the researchers was that separated twins very often
had the same spiritual leanings. Two women in Britain, for instance, who
were not raised in it, chose Evangelical Christianity as adults.
My mom was raised in a Seventh-Day Adventist home, but was never baptized;
the minister said she had "too many questions." Her mother was horrified
<g> Much later in life (about 20 years ago), my mom learned that her father
was, er, not her father. Her mother had gotten pregnant at age 14 by a 22
y.o. (she'd lied about her age to him), and he fled to Mexico. After
learning about her true paternity, mom went hunting for him. She finally
tracked down the right man, too late to meet him before his death, but did
find her half-brother. She learned that her real dad was a Religious
Scientist -- as she had been since her 30's. That is not a common religion;
it seems unlikely mere coincidence would draw them to the same beliefs.
I've been a very religious person since my late teens, but also prone to
depression. During those periods, God simply disappears. No contact, no
faith, no desire for Him. He simply no longer exists. My husband became
very depressed a couple of years ago, and stopped going to church; he put
it, "Church doesn't do it for me anymore." I've known other religious
people who "lose their faith" during depression.
Then there are people who never need faith of any kind, it seems. In my
husband's family, there are a few religious people, and a number of those
who are either indifferent, atheists, or rationalists. There are also a
number of scientists; in my family visual artists dominate, and the missing
grandfather, as it turns out, was a photographer with a wild sense of humor
<g> That explains a lot :-)
The questions rattling in my head are -- Does faith depend on heredity? Is
there a brain structure or function which governs "God"? If a person who is
religious can become an atheist because of depression, does it mean that
faith, or the perception of God, or spirituality, is controlled by some
function of the brain, which depression interrupts? Do closed societies
(the Amish, for instance) maintain their religion because the propensity to
it is inherited? Is there a "God gene"?
If the answer to any of that is "yes," does it mean that God does not exist,
that our perceptions are delusions which plague some but not others, or does
it mean he/she/it *does* exist, and has created these structures or
functions in order to have contact with us? And does it mean that those
without the capacity to perceive him are damned? Or, if he is just, that
those without the gene are equally saved without religion, since it would be
unfair otherwise? (I'm using saved and damned in a general sense, as most
religions promise some kind of reward for participation.)
And what of religions that practice meditation, or use drugs sacramentally?
My religion's hagiography is replete with saints whose visions could be just
as easily described as hallucinations; were they just nuts, or can severe
fasting account for them?
Something to ponder at this season of The Incarnation ;-)
Nancy
> It helped the discussions that we had a very pink neighbor boy. At firstI have a deep topic knocking at the inside of my skull, trying to find its
> we only knew his mom. Later I met his dad and his dad's partner. I think
> there was a genetic factor.
way out. This seems like a good list for it, as it certainly falls under
"Always Learning."
There is a program on The Discovery Channel called "Assignment: Discovery."
We watch it in the morning, and often use it as a jumping-off point for
discussion, a trip to the library, etc. This week, the topic has been human
genetics. One day, they showed the separated twins research that has been
going on for many years. It shows how the personality, as well as physical
traits, are inherited: two girls, for instance, one raised in wealth and
with the "best" parenting, the other in poverty and neglect, nonetheless
developed the same mental pathologies and learning disablilities.
Upbringing had nothing to do with it. And so on.
What was surprising to the researchers was that separated twins very often
had the same spiritual leanings. Two women in Britain, for instance, who
were not raised in it, chose Evangelical Christianity as adults.
My mom was raised in a Seventh-Day Adventist home, but was never baptized;
the minister said she had "too many questions." Her mother was horrified
<g> Much later in life (about 20 years ago), my mom learned that her father
was, er, not her father. Her mother had gotten pregnant at age 14 by a 22
y.o. (she'd lied about her age to him), and he fled to Mexico. After
learning about her true paternity, mom went hunting for him. She finally
tracked down the right man, too late to meet him before his death, but did
find her half-brother. She learned that her real dad was a Religious
Scientist -- as she had been since her 30's. That is not a common religion;
it seems unlikely mere coincidence would draw them to the same beliefs.
I've been a very religious person since my late teens, but also prone to
depression. During those periods, God simply disappears. No contact, no
faith, no desire for Him. He simply no longer exists. My husband became
very depressed a couple of years ago, and stopped going to church; he put
it, "Church doesn't do it for me anymore." I've known other religious
people who "lose their faith" during depression.
Then there are people who never need faith of any kind, it seems. In my
husband's family, there are a few religious people, and a number of those
who are either indifferent, atheists, or rationalists. There are also a
number of scientists; in my family visual artists dominate, and the missing
grandfather, as it turns out, was a photographer with a wild sense of humor
<g> That explains a lot :-)
The questions rattling in my head are -- Does faith depend on heredity? Is
there a brain structure or function which governs "God"? If a person who is
religious can become an atheist because of depression, does it mean that
faith, or the perception of God, or spirituality, is controlled by some
function of the brain, which depression interrupts? Do closed societies
(the Amish, for instance) maintain their religion because the propensity to
it is inherited? Is there a "God gene"?
If the answer to any of that is "yes," does it mean that God does not exist,
that our perceptions are delusions which plague some but not others, or does
it mean he/she/it *does* exist, and has created these structures or
functions in order to have contact with us? And does it mean that those
without the capacity to perceive him are damned? Or, if he is just, that
those without the gene are equally saved without religion, since it would be
unfair otherwise? (I'm using saved and damned in a general sense, as most
religions promise some kind of reward for participation.)
And what of religions that practice meditation, or use drugs sacramentally?
My religion's hagiography is replete with saints whose visions could be just
as easily described as hallucinations; were they just nuts, or can severe
fasting account for them?
Something to ponder at this season of The Incarnation ;-)
Nancy
zenmomma *
>Actually, I was too busy jotting down notes. I want to make sure I get it
>
>Oh, I figured some readers (you know who you are) weren't the least bit
>surprised, and the rest were still cleaning the morning coffee off their
>monitors.
right. ;-)
~Mary
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In a message dated 12/14/01 2:28:13 PM, Felicitas@... writes:
<< If a person who is
religious can become an atheist because of depression, does it mean that
faith, or the perception of God, or spirituality, is controlled by some
function of the brain, which depression interrupts? >>
There was a big article about this very thing (minus the depression issue,
but still--) in Time Magazine in May or so this year.
They asked the very same question you did:
<<If the answer to any of that is "yes," does it mean that God does not exist,
that our perceptions are delusions which plague some but not others, or does
it mean he/she/it *does* exist, and has created these structures or
functions in order to have contact with us?>>
They tested praying nuns and meditating monks and the same part of the brain
was "lighting up" as it were (in their test-jazz, however they had them wired
up with EKG or whatever it was. And they talked about sudden epiphanies and
brain damage and suchlike.
Those who know "ecstacy" can sometimes induce it in themselves. And there
are similarities in lots of religions--chanting (om or Amen) and swaying and
closed-eye, humming, singing, rhythmic stuff. People have said it calls
God down. "God is here with us" they say in revivals. "The house of the
Lord--Amen." And people start swaying. And with the professionals having
primed the pump, it's not as hard as on a normal day for the amateurs to
commune with God.
That's what I've been thinking.
Sandra
<< If a person who is
religious can become an atheist because of depression, does it mean that
faith, or the perception of God, or spirituality, is controlled by some
function of the brain, which depression interrupts? >>
There was a big article about this very thing (minus the depression issue,
but still--) in Time Magazine in May or so this year.
They asked the very same question you did:
<<If the answer to any of that is "yes," does it mean that God does not exist,
that our perceptions are delusions which plague some but not others, or does
it mean he/she/it *does* exist, and has created these structures or
functions in order to have contact with us?>>
They tested praying nuns and meditating monks and the same part of the brain
was "lighting up" as it were (in their test-jazz, however they had them wired
up with EKG or whatever it was. And they talked about sudden epiphanies and
brain damage and suchlike.
Those who know "ecstacy" can sometimes induce it in themselves. And there
are similarities in lots of religions--chanting (om or Amen) and swaying and
closed-eye, humming, singing, rhythmic stuff. People have said it calls
God down. "God is here with us" they say in revivals. "The house of the
Lord--Amen." And people start swaying. And with the professionals having
primed the pump, it's not as hard as on a normal day for the amateurs to
commune with God.
That's what I've been thinking.
Sandra