kids staying up all night
Liz
We've been homeschooling for the past 3 years, and have been working our way into unschooling over the past year (using this list and the recommended readings from it).
My 10yo son and 12yo daughter have shifted their schedules immensely in the past few months. They both are enjoying staying up until the wee hours of the morning. They then sleep anywhere from 10am to 3pm the next day.
It was a little difficult for me to be totally ok mentally with it in the beginning (just 'old school' thoughts popping up), then I read a comment about a child 'exploring those hours of the day', or something to that effect. That statement helped me to see the enjoyment and exploration for them in what they were doing. I now think it's neat they're doing this... not many people have the opportunity to do this, especially at a young age. The independence they feel, the darkness, being just the 2 of them, it's all good (except when they fight, which I'll get to).
The challenges I'm struggling with are..
1) hubby.
He was against homeschooling in the beginning, then came around (thanks to John Taylor Gatto) and now loves it. He leaves all the homeschooling up to me. I've explained a bit here and there about unschooling, but honestly haven't come out and said to him "we're unschooling". He sees we don't "do school work" anymore, and was questioning it a lot. The kids recently had to take state tests to comply (we're in NY and I give them the homeschool friendly PASS test), and they both "did well" on it, so he was happy about that, and even said "I guess continue doing what you're doing, whatever that is" (not in a detached way, but more of a "I have no idea what's going on here, but I trust you" way).
So, while he sees the benefits of what the kids and I are doing, he's having a very hard time accepting this schedule. There have been many times he's leaving for work at 6am, and our 12yo daughter is just getting ready to go to bed. He feels like they're sleeping the day away, which they are, but I've come to feel it's ok. He has A LOT of 'kids should do this and that' from his upbringing. My upbringing was more free, so I've always been the 'easier' parent, whereas he was always "we need rules, don't we?" parent. He really tries to be open minded though. I think he also simply wants the kids on "his" schedule, so when he comes home from work, they're awake and he can spend time w/ them. He goes to sleep by 8pm and goes to work at 6am, and sometimes comes home around noon, when the kids are still sleeping. He'll say things like "I was thinking we'd all go to lunch together, but they're sleeping" and it bugs him. He'd like to be able to do more 'family things' when he gets home from work early (which can be a few days a week), but again, they're sleeping. Whether it's playing in the yard or going to the movies, we can't do any of it together. And we can't do it with him during the evening, because he's winding down getting ready for bed. He doesn't want to go to dinner when he has work the next day - he just can't enjoy it if it's late afternoon or evening time. If it were only me, I'd be fine w/ food shopping, going out and doing things w/ the kids, all at night. It would be fun being "night owls" together. But, it's not only me.
Another fear of his is seizures. Our daughter had seizures up until 4yo, and her first one was an hour long at 15 months old. It was a very difficult, stressful, scary time in our lives for many, many years. Even after her seizures stopped, we were "waiting" for the next one for years and years, until we could finally say "we think she outgrew them". BUT, the doctors have always told us they could come back during puberty or during any stressful times in her life. They specifically said college years, because college students tend to stay up all night and push themselves past what is healthy for them, and he feels like she's doing this now (although she's not staying up all night, then staying awake during the day, but it's triggering a big fear in him).
2) the kids being loud.
It's more my son then my daughter, but they both contribute to the loudness. Mostly laughing, playing, doors opening/closing loudly, with some fighting (sometimes serious fighting) thrown in. My son especially just can't remember that it's the middle of the night and hubby and I are sleeping. I've talked to him about this many, many times, but it's just not on his mind in the middle of the night. He talks and laughs SO loudly! He also thinks nothing of coming in my room, flicking on the light and just start talking to me (at 2am). Sometimes he does this to give me goodnight kisses, sometimes he's telling me about a fight he and sister just had. Again, just no regard to it being 2am. I want to listen to him, because he seems to be the most open at this time, but boy am I tired. Then I'm often cranky the next day from a lack of sleep. I can't sleep late like they do, the dogs and life wake me around 8am. I try to nap when I can, but I really hate being soooo tired.
The arguing also can escalate into physical fights. When this happens, I immediately get up, and then the night is over. They must go to their rooms when this happens. Probably once every 2 weeks this happens. I remind them when I'm going to bed every night "if you fight, you have to go to your rooms". I also always say things like "you can disagree, just be quiet about it. But if you physically fight, that's it for the night". I tell them if they want to be able to stay up all night, they have to be mature enough to handle it (like not throwing a punch if you're mad about something).
3) when we have something to do the next day
It's more my daughter than my son, but getting them up to do things we had planned is sometimes difficult. My daughter takes a 3-hour art class once a week at 10am, and loves it. But it can be so difficult to get her up (but I always do, because it's a commitment). When she's fully awake, she wants to keep the commitment and truly loves it, and thanks me for getting her up to go. She's like a grumpy bear going there, and a bouncing ball of sunshine when I pick her up. So I really want to help her manage her time and schedule, so it's healthy for her (again, the seizure fear). She's always been the type to hate "going" to sleep. She always fought sleep as a baby and toddler, whereas my son as a toddler would declare he was tired, ask for a bottle, and lay himself down on the couch for a nap. As a toddler, she would walk into walls she was so tired, but still insist she wasn't tired.
4) I can't leave the house during the day
I can pretty much work around this one and am usually ok w/ it, but resentful feelings do sometimes crop up for me, that I'm "trapped" in the house (I won't leave them alone in the house when they're sleeping). Maybe I just need some thoughtful words here, I don't know. I very much want to support them in their current schedules, being they're enjoying it so much.
I'm looking forward to any advice anyone can offer. Thanks!
My 10yo son and 12yo daughter have shifted their schedules immensely in the past few months. They both are enjoying staying up until the wee hours of the morning. They then sleep anywhere from 10am to 3pm the next day.
It was a little difficult for me to be totally ok mentally with it in the beginning (just 'old school' thoughts popping up), then I read a comment about a child 'exploring those hours of the day', or something to that effect. That statement helped me to see the enjoyment and exploration for them in what they were doing. I now think it's neat they're doing this... not many people have the opportunity to do this, especially at a young age. The independence they feel, the darkness, being just the 2 of them, it's all good (except when they fight, which I'll get to).
The challenges I'm struggling with are..
1) hubby.
He was against homeschooling in the beginning, then came around (thanks to John Taylor Gatto) and now loves it. He leaves all the homeschooling up to me. I've explained a bit here and there about unschooling, but honestly haven't come out and said to him "we're unschooling". He sees we don't "do school work" anymore, and was questioning it a lot. The kids recently had to take state tests to comply (we're in NY and I give them the homeschool friendly PASS test), and they both "did well" on it, so he was happy about that, and even said "I guess continue doing what you're doing, whatever that is" (not in a detached way, but more of a "I have no idea what's going on here, but I trust you" way).
So, while he sees the benefits of what the kids and I are doing, he's having a very hard time accepting this schedule. There have been many times he's leaving for work at 6am, and our 12yo daughter is just getting ready to go to bed. He feels like they're sleeping the day away, which they are, but I've come to feel it's ok. He has A LOT of 'kids should do this and that' from his upbringing. My upbringing was more free, so I've always been the 'easier' parent, whereas he was always "we need rules, don't we?" parent. He really tries to be open minded though. I think he also simply wants the kids on "his" schedule, so when he comes home from work, they're awake and he can spend time w/ them. He goes to sleep by 8pm and goes to work at 6am, and sometimes comes home around noon, when the kids are still sleeping. He'll say things like "I was thinking we'd all go to lunch together, but they're sleeping" and it bugs him. He'd like to be able to do more 'family things' when he gets home from work early (which can be a few days a week), but again, they're sleeping. Whether it's playing in the yard or going to the movies, we can't do any of it together. And we can't do it with him during the evening, because he's winding down getting ready for bed. He doesn't want to go to dinner when he has work the next day - he just can't enjoy it if it's late afternoon or evening time. If it were only me, I'd be fine w/ food shopping, going out and doing things w/ the kids, all at night. It would be fun being "night owls" together. But, it's not only me.
Another fear of his is seizures. Our daughter had seizures up until 4yo, and her first one was an hour long at 15 months old. It was a very difficult, stressful, scary time in our lives for many, many years. Even after her seizures stopped, we were "waiting" for the next one for years and years, until we could finally say "we think she outgrew them". BUT, the doctors have always told us they could come back during puberty or during any stressful times in her life. They specifically said college years, because college students tend to stay up all night and push themselves past what is healthy for them, and he feels like she's doing this now (although she's not staying up all night, then staying awake during the day, but it's triggering a big fear in him).
2) the kids being loud.
It's more my son then my daughter, but they both contribute to the loudness. Mostly laughing, playing, doors opening/closing loudly, with some fighting (sometimes serious fighting) thrown in. My son especially just can't remember that it's the middle of the night and hubby and I are sleeping. I've talked to him about this many, many times, but it's just not on his mind in the middle of the night. He talks and laughs SO loudly! He also thinks nothing of coming in my room, flicking on the light and just start talking to me (at 2am). Sometimes he does this to give me goodnight kisses, sometimes he's telling me about a fight he and sister just had. Again, just no regard to it being 2am. I want to listen to him, because he seems to be the most open at this time, but boy am I tired. Then I'm often cranky the next day from a lack of sleep. I can't sleep late like they do, the dogs and life wake me around 8am. I try to nap when I can, but I really hate being soooo tired.
The arguing also can escalate into physical fights. When this happens, I immediately get up, and then the night is over. They must go to their rooms when this happens. Probably once every 2 weeks this happens. I remind them when I'm going to bed every night "if you fight, you have to go to your rooms". I also always say things like "you can disagree, just be quiet about it. But if you physically fight, that's it for the night". I tell them if they want to be able to stay up all night, they have to be mature enough to handle it (like not throwing a punch if you're mad about something).
3) when we have something to do the next day
It's more my daughter than my son, but getting them up to do things we had planned is sometimes difficult. My daughter takes a 3-hour art class once a week at 10am, and loves it. But it can be so difficult to get her up (but I always do, because it's a commitment). When she's fully awake, she wants to keep the commitment and truly loves it, and thanks me for getting her up to go. She's like a grumpy bear going there, and a bouncing ball of sunshine when I pick her up. So I really want to help her manage her time and schedule, so it's healthy for her (again, the seizure fear). She's always been the type to hate "going" to sleep. She always fought sleep as a baby and toddler, whereas my son as a toddler would declare he was tired, ask for a bottle, and lay himself down on the couch for a nap. As a toddler, she would walk into walls she was so tired, but still insist she wasn't tired.
4) I can't leave the house during the day
I can pretty much work around this one and am usually ok w/ it, but resentful feelings do sometimes crop up for me, that I'm "trapped" in the house (I won't leave them alone in the house when they're sleeping). Maybe I just need some thoughtful words here, I don't know. I very much want to support them in their current schedules, being they're enjoying it so much.
I'm looking forward to any advice anyone can offer. Thanks!
Meredith
"Liz" <lizjane68@...> wrote:
I'm not sure it's all good, actually - how long are they stuck on their own with no parental support? Can you shift your own routine so you're up later, with them? That would help with several problems: you can help them work things out, remind them of the need to be considerate of dad's sleep, and get out of the house more - at night. It could also help allay some of your husband's fears.
You can do some planning and tweaking and compromising - especially if you're staying up too, because you can help the kids figure out when they want to go to sleep so they're up in time to do things with dad.
What time is getting home? If they're waking up anywhere from 10-3, then it shouldn't be a big deal to get them up at noon sometimes. They can have breakfast with dad and then do something fun with him before he needs to wind down for bed. But it will be easier to do that with some planning. It's not really any different than planning around a child who naps, or has an early bedtime - so long as you think of it as a logistical puzzle rather than a conflict between right and wrong.
Here's another thought, though - if dad comes home unexpectedly and the kids are asleep, use the time to cuddle or get sexy!
---Meredith
>The independence they feel, the darkness, being just the 2 of them, it's all good (except when they fight, which I'll get to).******************
I'm not sure it's all good, actually - how long are they stuck on their own with no parental support? Can you shift your own routine so you're up later, with them? That would help with several problems: you can help them work things out, remind them of the need to be considerate of dad's sleep, and get out of the house more - at night. It could also help allay some of your husband's fears.
>>He'll say things like "I was thinking we'd all go to lunch together, but they're sleeping" and it bugs him. He'd like to be able to do more 'family things' when he gets home from work early****************
You can do some planning and tweaking and compromising - especially if you're staying up too, because you can help the kids figure out when they want to go to sleep so they're up in time to do things with dad.
What time is getting home? If they're waking up anywhere from 10-3, then it shouldn't be a big deal to get them up at noon sometimes. They can have breakfast with dad and then do something fun with him before he needs to wind down for bed. But it will be easier to do that with some planning. It's not really any different than planning around a child who naps, or has an early bedtime - so long as you think of it as a logistical puzzle rather than a conflict between right and wrong.
Here's another thought, though - if dad comes home unexpectedly and the kids are asleep, use the time to cuddle or get sexy!
---Meredith
> We've been homeschooling for the past 3 years, and have been working our way into unschooling over the past year (using this list and the recommended readings from it).
>
> My 10yo son and 12yo daughter have shifted their schedules immensely in the past few months. They both are enjoying staying up until the wee hours of the morning. They then sleep anywhere from 10am to 3pm the next day.
>
> It was a little difficult for me to be totally ok mentally with it in the beginning (just 'old school' thoughts popping up), then I read a comment about a child 'exploring those hours of the day', or something to that effect. That statement helped me to see the enjoyment and exploration for them in what they were doing. I now think it's neat they're doing this... not many people have the opportunity to do this, especially at a young age. The independence they feel, the darkness, being just the 2 of them, it's all good (except when they fight, which I'll get to).
>
> The challenges I'm struggling with are..
>
> 1) hubby.
>
> He was against homeschooling in the beginning, then came around (thanks to John Taylor Gatto) and now loves it. He leaves all the homeschooling up to me. I've explained a bit here and there about unschooling, but honestly haven't come out and said to him "we're unschooling". He sees we don't "do school work" anymore, and was questioning it a lot. The kids recently had to take state tests to comply (we're in NY and I give them the homeschool friendly PASS test), and they both "did well" on it, so he was happy about that, and even said "I guess continue doing what you're doing, whatever that is" (not in a detached way, but more of a "I have no idea what's going on here, but I trust you" way).
>
> So, while he sees the benefits of what the kids and I are doing, he's having a very hard time accepting this schedule. There have been many times he's leaving for work at 6am, and our 12yo daughter is just getting ready to go to bed. He feels like they're sleeping the day away, which they are, but I've come to feel it's ok. He has A LOT of 'kids should do this and that' from his upbringing. My upbringing was more free, so I've always been the 'easier' parent, whereas he was always "we need rules, don't we?" parent. He really tries to be open minded though. I think he also simply wants the kids on "his" schedule, so when he comes home from work, they're awake and he can spend time w/ them. He goes to sleep by 8pm and goes to work at 6am, and sometimes comes home around noon, when the kids are still sleeping. He'll say things like "I was thinking we'd all go to lunch together, but they're sleeping" and it bugs him. He'd like to be able to do more 'family things' when he gets home from work early (which can be a few days a week), but again, they're sleeping. Whether it's playing in the yard or going to the movies, we can't do any of it together. And we can't do it with him during the evening, because he's winding down getting ready for bed. He doesn't want to go to dinner when he has work the next day - he just can't enjoy it if it's late afternoon or evening time. If it were only me, I'd be fine w/ food shopping, going out and doing things w/ the kids, all at night. It would be fun being "night owls" together. But, it's not only me.
>
> Another fear of his is seizures. Our daughter had seizures up until 4yo, and her first one was an hour long at 15 months old. It was a very difficult, stressful, scary time in our lives for many, many years. Even after her seizures stopped, we were "waiting" for the next one for years and years, until we could finally say "we think she outgrew them". BUT, the doctors have always told us they could come back during puberty or during any stressful times in her life. They specifically said college years, because college students tend to stay up all night and push themselves past what is healthy for them, and he feels like she's doing this now (although she's not staying up all night, then staying awake during the day, but it's triggering a big fear in him).
>
>
> 2) the kids being loud.
>
> It's more my son then my daughter, but they both contribute to the loudness. Mostly laughing, playing, doors opening/closing loudly, with some fighting (sometimes serious fighting) thrown in. My son especially just can't remember that it's the middle of the night and hubby and I are sleeping. I've talked to him about this many, many times, but it's just not on his mind in the middle of the night. He talks and laughs SO loudly! He also thinks nothing of coming in my room, flicking on the light and just start talking to me (at 2am). Sometimes he does this to give me goodnight kisses, sometimes he's telling me about a fight he and sister just had. Again, just no regard to it being 2am. I want to listen to him, because he seems to be the most open at this time, but boy am I tired. Then I'm often cranky the next day from a lack of sleep. I can't sleep late like they do, the dogs and life wake me around 8am. I try to nap when I can, but I really hate being soooo tired.
>
> The arguing also can escalate into physical fights. When this happens, I immediately get up, and then the night is over. They must go to their rooms when this happens. Probably once every 2 weeks this happens. I remind them when I'm going to bed every night "if you fight, you have to go to your rooms". I also always say things like "you can disagree, just be quiet about it. But if you physically fight, that's it for the night". I tell them if they want to be able to stay up all night, they have to be mature enough to handle it (like not throwing a punch if you're mad about something).
>
>
> 3) when we have something to do the next day
>
> It's more my daughter than my son, but getting them up to do things we had planned is sometimes difficult. My daughter takes a 3-hour art class once a week at 10am, and loves it. But it can be so difficult to get her up (but I always do, because it's a commitment). When she's fully awake, she wants to keep the commitment and truly loves it, and thanks me for getting her up to go. She's like a grumpy bear going there, and a bouncing ball of sunshine when I pick her up. So I really want to help her manage her time and schedule, so it's healthy for her (again, the seizure fear). She's always been the type to hate "going" to sleep. She always fought sleep as a baby and toddler, whereas my son as a toddler would declare he was tired, ask for a bottle, and lay himself down on the couch for a nap. As a toddler, she would walk into walls she was so tired, but still insist she wasn't tired.
>
>
> 4) I can't leave the house during the day
>
> I can pretty much work around this one and am usually ok w/ it, but resentful feelings do sometimes crop up for me, that I'm "trapped" in the house (I won't leave them alone in the house when they're sleeping). Maybe I just need some thoughtful words here, I don't know. I very much want to support them in their current schedules, being they're enjoying it so much.
>
>
> I'm looking forward to any advice anyone can offer. Thanks!
>
[email protected]
Liz,
We have always lived that way. I have never had a bed time battle, which is very pleasant. I did have times that he tried to stay up as late as I do, he would lay down right where he was and crash, so I carried him to bed. It is very peaceful, my hubby was able to get overnight hours, which works really well for all of us. We turn a fan on high and try to be as quiet as possible if we get up before he does. I work from home and sometimes have to be alert which can be trying but it sure does give us the flexibility to sleep when we are tired. I have always lived by the sleep when tired, eat when hungry.... etc. It works well for us. Because we live this way it is peaceful and very comfortable. My sons friends like to stay over at our house. :-)
We go out and look at the stars and listen to the sounds of the night. The phone doesn't ring and life is really quiet at night. I have other friends that stay up like I do, sometimes they come over in the middle of the night. I bet our neighbors think we are nuts! Those goofy homeschoolers! Lol!
I hear how we are not normal... I kind of think the person saying it to me has no clue what normal is... tee hee, then I take a look at their kids and smile to my self. Never being blasted out of bed with an alarm is wonderful. Cheryl
-----Original Message-----
From: Liz <lizjane68@...>
To: AlwaysLearning <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, Jul 3, 2012 11:41 am
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] kids staying up all night
We've been homeschooling for the past 3 years, and have been working our way into unschooling over the past year (using this list and the recommended readings from it).
My 10yo son and 12yo daughter have shifted their schedules immensely in the past few months. They both are enjoying staying up until the wee hours of the morning. They then sleep anywhere from 10am to 3pm the next day.
It was a little difficult for me to be totally ok mentally with it in the beginning (just 'old school' thoughts popping up), then I read a comment about a child 'exploring those hours of the day', or something to that effect. That statement helped me to see the enjoyment and exploration for them in what they were doing. I now think it's neat they're doing this... not many people have the opportunity to do this, especially at a young age. The independence they feel, the darkness, being just the 2 of them, it's all good (except when they fight, which I'll get to).
The challenges I'm struggling with are..
1) hubby.
He was against homeschooling in the beginning, then came around (thanks to John Taylor Gatto) and now loves it. He leaves all the homeschooling up to me. I've explained a bit here and there about unschooling, but honestly haven't come out and said to him "we're unschooling". He sees we don't "do school work" anymore, and was questioning it a lot. The kids recently had to take state tests to comply (we're in NY and I give them the homeschool friendly PASS test), and they both "did well" on it, so he was happy about that, and even said "I guess continue doing what you're doing, whatever that is" (not in a detached way, but more of a "I have no idea what's going on here, but I trust you" way).
So, while he sees the benefits of what the kids and I are doing, he's having a very hard time accepting this schedule. There have been many times he's leaving for work at 6am, and our 12yo daughter is just getting ready to go to bed. He feels like they're sleeping the day away, which they are, but I've come to feel it's ok. He has A LOT of 'kids should do this and that' from his upbringing. My upbringing was more free, so I've always been the 'easier' parent, whereas he was always "we need rules, don't we?" parent. He really tries to be open minded though. I think he also simply wants the kids on "his" schedule, so when he comes home from work, they're awake and he can spend time w/ them. He goes to sleep by 8pm and goes to work at 6am, and sometimes comes home around noon, when the kids are still sleeping. He'll say things like "I was thinking we'd all go to lunch together, but they're sleeping" and it bugs him. He'd like to be able to do more 'family things' when he gets home from work early (which can be a few days a week), but again, they're sleeping. Whether it's playing in the yard or going to the movies, we can't do any of it together. And we can't do it with him during the evening, because he's winding down getting ready for bed. He doesn't want to go to dinner when he has work the next day - he just can't enjoy it if it's late afternoon or evening time. If it were only me, I'd be fine w/ food shopping, going out and doing things w/ the kids, all at night. It would be fun being "night owls" together. But, it's not only me.
Another fear of his is seizures. Our daughter had seizures up until 4yo, and her first one was an hour long at 15 months old. It was a very difficult, stressful, scary time in our lives for many, many years. Even after her seizures stopped, we were "waiting" for the next one for years and years, until we could finally say "we think she outgrew them". BUT, the doctors have always told us they could come back during puberty or during any stressful times in her life. They specifically said college years, because college students tend to stay up all night and push themselves past what is healthy for them, and he feels like she's doing this now (although she's not staying up all night, then staying awake during the day, but it's triggering a big fear in him).
2) the kids being loud.
It's more my son then my daughter, but they both contribute to the loudness. Mostly laughing, playing, doors opening/closing loudly, with some fighting (sometimes serious fighting) thrown in. My son especially just can't remember that it's the middle of the night and hubby and I are sleeping. I've talked to him about this many, many times, but it's just not on his mind in the middle of the night. He talks and laughs SO loudly! He also thinks nothing of coming in my room, flicking on the light and just start talking to me (at 2am). Sometimes he does this to give me goodnight kisses, sometimes he's telling me about a fight he and sister just had. Again, just no regard to it being 2am. I want to listen to him, because he seems to be the most open at this time, but boy am I tired. Then I'm often cranky the next day from a lack of sleep. I can't sleep late like they do, the dogs and life wake me around 8am. I try to nap when I can, but I really hate being soooo tired.
The arguing also can escalate into physical fights. When this happens, I immediately get up, and then the night is over. They must go to their rooms when this happens. Probably once every 2 weeks this happens. I remind them when I'm going to bed every night "if you fight, you have to go to your rooms". I also always say things like "you can disagree, just be quiet about it. But if you physically fight, that's it for the night". I tell them if they want to be able to stay up all night, they have to be mature enough to handle it (like not throwing a punch if you're mad about something).
3) when we have something to do the next day
It's more my daughter than my son, but getting them up to do things we had planned is sometimes difficult. My daughter takes a 3-hour art class once a week at 10am, and loves it. But it can be so difficult to get her up (but I always do, because it's a commitment). When she's fully awake, she wants to keep the commitment and truly loves it, and thanks me for getting her up to go. She's like a grumpy bear going there, and a bouncing ball of sunshine when I pick her up. So I really want to help her manage her time and schedule, so it's healthy for her (again, the seizure fear). She's always been the type to hate "going" to sleep. She always fought sleep as a baby and toddler, whereas my son as a toddler would declare he was tired, ask for a bottle, and lay himself down on the couch for a nap. As a toddler, she would walk into walls she was so tired, but still insist she wasn't tired.
4) I can't leave the house during the day
I can pretty much work around this one and am usually ok w/ it, but resentful feelings do sometimes crop up for me, that I'm "trapped" in the house (I won't leave them alone in the house when they're sleeping). Maybe I just need some thoughtful words here, I don't know. I very much want to support them in their current schedules, being they're enjoying it so much.
I'm looking forward to any advice anyone can offer. Thanks!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We have always lived that way. I have never had a bed time battle, which is very pleasant. I did have times that he tried to stay up as late as I do, he would lay down right where he was and crash, so I carried him to bed. It is very peaceful, my hubby was able to get overnight hours, which works really well for all of us. We turn a fan on high and try to be as quiet as possible if we get up before he does. I work from home and sometimes have to be alert which can be trying but it sure does give us the flexibility to sleep when we are tired. I have always lived by the sleep when tired, eat when hungry.... etc. It works well for us. Because we live this way it is peaceful and very comfortable. My sons friends like to stay over at our house. :-)
We go out and look at the stars and listen to the sounds of the night. The phone doesn't ring and life is really quiet at night. I have other friends that stay up like I do, sometimes they come over in the middle of the night. I bet our neighbors think we are nuts! Those goofy homeschoolers! Lol!
I hear how we are not normal... I kind of think the person saying it to me has no clue what normal is... tee hee, then I take a look at their kids and smile to my self. Never being blasted out of bed with an alarm is wonderful. Cheryl
-----Original Message-----
From: Liz <lizjane68@...>
To: AlwaysLearning <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, Jul 3, 2012 11:41 am
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] kids staying up all night
We've been homeschooling for the past 3 years, and have been working our way into unschooling over the past year (using this list and the recommended readings from it).
My 10yo son and 12yo daughter have shifted their schedules immensely in the past few months. They both are enjoying staying up until the wee hours of the morning. They then sleep anywhere from 10am to 3pm the next day.
It was a little difficult for me to be totally ok mentally with it in the beginning (just 'old school' thoughts popping up), then I read a comment about a child 'exploring those hours of the day', or something to that effect. That statement helped me to see the enjoyment and exploration for them in what they were doing. I now think it's neat they're doing this... not many people have the opportunity to do this, especially at a young age. The independence they feel, the darkness, being just the 2 of them, it's all good (except when they fight, which I'll get to).
The challenges I'm struggling with are..
1) hubby.
He was against homeschooling in the beginning, then came around (thanks to John Taylor Gatto) and now loves it. He leaves all the homeschooling up to me. I've explained a bit here and there about unschooling, but honestly haven't come out and said to him "we're unschooling". He sees we don't "do school work" anymore, and was questioning it a lot. The kids recently had to take state tests to comply (we're in NY and I give them the homeschool friendly PASS test), and they both "did well" on it, so he was happy about that, and even said "I guess continue doing what you're doing, whatever that is" (not in a detached way, but more of a "I have no idea what's going on here, but I trust you" way).
So, while he sees the benefits of what the kids and I are doing, he's having a very hard time accepting this schedule. There have been many times he's leaving for work at 6am, and our 12yo daughter is just getting ready to go to bed. He feels like they're sleeping the day away, which they are, but I've come to feel it's ok. He has A LOT of 'kids should do this and that' from his upbringing. My upbringing was more free, so I've always been the 'easier' parent, whereas he was always "we need rules, don't we?" parent. He really tries to be open minded though. I think he also simply wants the kids on "his" schedule, so when he comes home from work, they're awake and he can spend time w/ them. He goes to sleep by 8pm and goes to work at 6am, and sometimes comes home around noon, when the kids are still sleeping. He'll say things like "I was thinking we'd all go to lunch together, but they're sleeping" and it bugs him. He'd like to be able to do more 'family things' when he gets home from work early (which can be a few days a week), but again, they're sleeping. Whether it's playing in the yard or going to the movies, we can't do any of it together. And we can't do it with him during the evening, because he's winding down getting ready for bed. He doesn't want to go to dinner when he has work the next day - he just can't enjoy it if it's late afternoon or evening time. If it were only me, I'd be fine w/ food shopping, going out and doing things w/ the kids, all at night. It would be fun being "night owls" together. But, it's not only me.
Another fear of his is seizures. Our daughter had seizures up until 4yo, and her first one was an hour long at 15 months old. It was a very difficult, stressful, scary time in our lives for many, many years. Even after her seizures stopped, we were "waiting" for the next one for years and years, until we could finally say "we think she outgrew them". BUT, the doctors have always told us they could come back during puberty or during any stressful times in her life. They specifically said college years, because college students tend to stay up all night and push themselves past what is healthy for them, and he feels like she's doing this now (although she's not staying up all night, then staying awake during the day, but it's triggering a big fear in him).
2) the kids being loud.
It's more my son then my daughter, but they both contribute to the loudness. Mostly laughing, playing, doors opening/closing loudly, with some fighting (sometimes serious fighting) thrown in. My son especially just can't remember that it's the middle of the night and hubby and I are sleeping. I've talked to him about this many, many times, but it's just not on his mind in the middle of the night. He talks and laughs SO loudly! He also thinks nothing of coming in my room, flicking on the light and just start talking to me (at 2am). Sometimes he does this to give me goodnight kisses, sometimes he's telling me about a fight he and sister just had. Again, just no regard to it being 2am. I want to listen to him, because he seems to be the most open at this time, but boy am I tired. Then I'm often cranky the next day from a lack of sleep. I can't sleep late like they do, the dogs and life wake me around 8am. I try to nap when I can, but I really hate being soooo tired.
The arguing also can escalate into physical fights. When this happens, I immediately get up, and then the night is over. They must go to their rooms when this happens. Probably once every 2 weeks this happens. I remind them when I'm going to bed every night "if you fight, you have to go to your rooms". I also always say things like "you can disagree, just be quiet about it. But if you physically fight, that's it for the night". I tell them if they want to be able to stay up all night, they have to be mature enough to handle it (like not throwing a punch if you're mad about something).
3) when we have something to do the next day
It's more my daughter than my son, but getting them up to do things we had planned is sometimes difficult. My daughter takes a 3-hour art class once a week at 10am, and loves it. But it can be so difficult to get her up (but I always do, because it's a commitment). When she's fully awake, she wants to keep the commitment and truly loves it, and thanks me for getting her up to go. She's like a grumpy bear going there, and a bouncing ball of sunshine when I pick her up. So I really want to help her manage her time and schedule, so it's healthy for her (again, the seizure fear). She's always been the type to hate "going" to sleep. She always fought sleep as a baby and toddler, whereas my son as a toddler would declare he was tired, ask for a bottle, and lay himself down on the couch for a nap. As a toddler, she would walk into walls she was so tired, but still insist she wasn't tired.
4) I can't leave the house during the day
I can pretty much work around this one and am usually ok w/ it, but resentful feelings do sometimes crop up for me, that I'm "trapped" in the house (I won't leave them alone in the house when they're sleeping). Maybe I just need some thoughtful words here, I don't know. I very much want to support them in their current schedules, being they're enjoying it so much.
I'm looking forward to any advice anyone can offer. Thanks!
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Sandra Dodd
-=- I have other friends that stay up like I do, sometimes they come over in the middle of the night. I bet our neighbors think we are nuts! -=-
-=-I hear how we are not normal... I kind of think the person saying it to me has no clue what normal is... tee hee, then I take a look at their kids and smile to my self. Never being blasted out of bed with an alarm is wonderful. -=-
Depending where you are, having friends come over in the middle of the night could be a problem.
If they're disturbing your neighbors, even a little, it could be breaking a law.
If the neighbors think you are crazy, even a little, and if they report it to authorities, you could have problems--even if your children were in school.
I unschooled my kids for altogether 20 years, from the time Kirby was four to the time Holly turned 19. I have a great clue what normal is, and I kept my kids quiet on school nights after 10:00 because the law where we live say there's to be no unusual noise after that time in residential neighborhoods, and because I didn't want trouble with social services, police, or school authorities.
Those considerations should be more important than some unschooling late-night partying.
My kids have used alarm clocks many times to wake up for good reasons. Kirby used to get up at 6:30 A.M. to record Ninja Turtles, and then go back to sleep, when he was 11 or 12 or so. They've not been "blasted out of bed," but have woken up when they wanted to do something special, and have gone to sleep in time to wake up comfortably in those cases, too.
Having guests come over in the middle of the night might be normal for musicians or drug dealers, but it isn't normal for families with young children.
Sandra
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-=-I hear how we are not normal... I kind of think the person saying it to me has no clue what normal is... tee hee, then I take a look at their kids and smile to my self. Never being blasted out of bed with an alarm is wonderful. -=-
Depending where you are, having friends come over in the middle of the night could be a problem.
If they're disturbing your neighbors, even a little, it could be breaking a law.
If the neighbors think you are crazy, even a little, and if they report it to authorities, you could have problems--even if your children were in school.
I unschooled my kids for altogether 20 years, from the time Kirby was four to the time Holly turned 19. I have a great clue what normal is, and I kept my kids quiet on school nights after 10:00 because the law where we live say there's to be no unusual noise after that time in residential neighborhoods, and because I didn't want trouble with social services, police, or school authorities.
Those considerations should be more important than some unschooling late-night partying.
My kids have used alarm clocks many times to wake up for good reasons. Kirby used to get up at 6:30 A.M. to record Ninja Turtles, and then go back to sleep, when he was 11 or 12 or so. They've not been "blasted out of bed," but have woken up when they wanted to do something special, and have gone to sleep in time to wake up comfortably in those cases, too.
Having guests come over in the middle of the night might be normal for musicians or drug dealers, but it isn't normal for families with young children.
Sandra
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Meredith
Sunnyoneof1@... wrote:
It could also help to rearrange the home so that the sleeping area is as cozy and isolated as possible. We have an open floorplan downstairs and the family bedroom upstairs, and at times we've rearranged the whole downstairs living area to keep sound from carrying. When Ray was on the computer late at night, we moved that to a quiet corner. Then when Mo was building with legos late at night we moved those to the quiet corner. Don't limit yourself to "this is the dining room, this is the bedroom" necessarily - rooms can sometimes be shifted around to make life easier for everyone in the family.
---Meredith
> We turn a fan on high"White noise" is a good idea to help sleepers - it won't help if people are really raucous, but low key, normal noise it kind of "fuzzes out". Besides a fan, you could use recorded ambient sounds (waves, birdsong, frogs) or have a fish tank or small fountain in the bedroom.
It could also help to rearrange the home so that the sleeping area is as cozy and isolated as possible. We have an open floorplan downstairs and the family bedroom upstairs, and at times we've rearranged the whole downstairs living area to keep sound from carrying. When Ray was on the computer late at night, we moved that to a quiet corner. Then when Mo was building with legos late at night we moved those to the quiet corner. Don't limit yourself to "this is the dining room, this is the bedroom" necessarily - rooms can sometimes be shifted around to make life easier for everyone in the family.
---Meredith
Sylvia Woodman
Do your kids know that their Dad would like to spend time with them when he
comes home early from work? My kids are also night owls but time with Dad
is prized so if they knew in advance that there was going to be what we
call "Bonus Daddy Time" they would be willing to wake up early. Also, I
find it troubling that he has an "I have no idea what's going on here, but
I trust you" mentality on what is going on with his family. Can you send
him e-mail or blog posts with lots of pictures of what cool things the kids
are doing while he is at work or sleeping?
Regarding your daughter's seizures, I think lack of sleep and stress tend
to trigger seizures in those who are prone. Is your daughter getting
enough hours of sleep even if the hours are non-traditional? Also, at 12
years old shouldn't she be a part of discussions concerning her health?
I think that at 10 and 12 yrs old your kids should be able to understand
that people who are sleeping should not be disturbed, especially the person
who has to get up and earn the money that makes this whole unschooling life
possible! Turning on the light in a room of sleeping people at 2AM is just
rude. Can you work with your son on that?
I would suggest that you do what you need to do to shift your schedule so
that you can be with your children late at night so they are not just left
to their own devices at a time of day when they seem not to be able to make
the most thoughtful choices.
Sylvia
comes home early from work? My kids are also night owls but time with Dad
is prized so if they knew in advance that there was going to be what we
call "Bonus Daddy Time" they would be willing to wake up early. Also, I
find it troubling that he has an "I have no idea what's going on here, but
I trust you" mentality on what is going on with his family. Can you send
him e-mail or blog posts with lots of pictures of what cool things the kids
are doing while he is at work or sleeping?
Regarding your daughter's seizures, I think lack of sleep and stress tend
to trigger seizures in those who are prone. Is your daughter getting
enough hours of sleep even if the hours are non-traditional? Also, at 12
years old shouldn't she be a part of discussions concerning her health?
I think that at 10 and 12 yrs old your kids should be able to understand
that people who are sleeping should not be disturbed, especially the person
who has to get up and earn the money that makes this whole unschooling life
possible! Turning on the light in a room of sleeping people at 2AM is just
rude. Can you work with your son on that?
I would suggest that you do what you need to do to shift your schedule so
that you can be with your children late at night so they are not just left
to their own devices at a time of day when they seem not to be able to make
the most thoughtful choices.
Sylvia
On Tue, Jul 3, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Liz <lizjane68@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
>
> He was against homeschooling in the beginning, then came around (thanks to
> John Taylor Gatto) and now loves it. He leaves all the homeschooling up to
> me. I've explained a bit here and there about unschooling, but honestly
> haven't come out and said to him "we're unschooling". He sees we don't "do
> school work" anymore, and was questioning it a lot. The kids recently had
> to take state tests to comply (we're in NY and I give them the homeschool
> friendly PASS test), and they both "did well" on it, so he was happy about
> that, and even said "I guess continue doing what you're doing, whatever
> that is" (not in a detached way, but more of a "I have no idea what's going
> on here, but I trust you" way).
>
> So, while he sees the benefits of what the kids and I are doing, he's
> having a very hard time accepting this schedule. There have been many times
> he's leaving for work at 6am, and our 12yo daughter is just getting ready
> to go to bed. He feels like they're sleeping the day away, which they are,
> but I've come to feel it's ok. He has A LOT of 'kids should do this and
> that' from his upbringing. My upbringing was more free, so I've always been
> the 'easier' parent, whereas he was always "we need rules, don't we?"
> parent. He really tries to be open minded though. I think he also simply
> wants the kids on "his" schedule, so when he comes home from work, they're
> awake and he can spend time w/ them. He goes to sleep by 8pm and goes to
> work at 6am, and sometimes comes home around noon, when the kids are still
> sleeping. He'll say things like "I was thinking we'd all go to lunch
> together, but they're sleeping" and it bugs him. He'd like to be able to do
> more 'family things' when he gets home from work early (which can be a few
> days a week), but again, they're sleeping. Whether it's playing in the yard
> or going to the movies, we can't do any of it together. And we can't do it
> with him during the evening, because he's winding down getting ready for
> bed. He doesn't want to go to dinner when he has work the next day - he
> just can't enjoy it if it's late afternoon or evening time. If it were only
> me, I'd be fine w/ food shopping, going out and doing things w/ the kids,
> all at night. It would be fun being "night owls" together. But, it's not
> only me.
>
> Another fear of his is seizures. Our daughter had seizures up until 4yo,
> and her first one was an hour long at 15 months old. It was a very
> difficult, stressful, scary time in our lives for many, many years. Even
> after her seizures stopped, we were "waiting" for the next one for years
> and years, until we could finally say "we think she outgrew them". BUT, the
> doctors have always told us they could come back during puberty or during
> any stressful times in her life. They specifically said college years,
> because college students tend to stay up all night and push themselves past
> what is healthy for them, and he feels like she's doing this now (although
> she's not staying up all night, then staying awake during the day, but it's
> triggering a big fear in him).
>
> 2) the kids being loud.
>
> It's more my son then my daughter, but they both contribute to the
> loudness. Mostly laughing, playing, doors opening/closing loudly, with some
> fighting (sometimes serious fighting) thrown in. My son especially just
> can't remember that it's the middle of the night and hubby and I are
> sleeping. I've talked to him about this many, many times, but it's just not
> on his mind in the middle of the night. He talks and laughs SO loudly! He
> also thinks nothing of coming in my room, flicking on the light and just
> start talking to me (at 2am). Sometimes he does this to give me goodnight
> kisses, sometimes he's telling me about a fight he and sister just had.
> Again, just no regard to it being 2am. I want to listen to him, because he
> seems to be the most open at this time, but boy am I tired. Then I'm often
> cranky the next day from a lack of sleep. I can't sleep late like they do,
> the dogs and life wake me around 8am. I try to nap when I can, but I really
> hate being soooo tired.
>
> The arguing also can escalate into physical fights. When this happens, I
> immediately get up, and then the night is over. They must go to their rooms
> when this happens. Probably once every 2 weeks this happens. I remind them
> when I'm going to bed every night "if you fight, you have to go to your
> rooms". I also always say things like "you can disagree, just be quiet
> about it. But if you physically fight, that's it for the night". I tell
> them if they want to be able to stay up all night, they have to be mature
> enough to handle it (like not throwing a punch if you're mad about
> something).
>
> 3) when we have something to do the next day
>
> It's more my daughter than my son, but getting them up to do things we had
> planned is sometimes difficult. My daughter takes a 3-hour art class once a
> week at 10am, and loves it. But it can be so difficult to get her up (but I
> always do, because it's a commitment). When she's fully awake, she wants to
> keep the commitment and truly loves it, and thanks me for getting her up to
> go. She's like a grumpy bear going there, and a bouncing ball of sunshine
> when I pick her up. So I really want to help her manage her time and
> schedule, so it's healthy for her (again, the seizure fear). She's always
> been the type to hate "going" to sleep. She always fought sleep as a baby
> and toddler, whereas my son as a toddler would declare he was tired, ask
> for a bottle, and lay himself down on the couch for a nap. As a toddler,
> she would walk into walls she was so tired, but still insist she wasn't
> tired.
>
> 4) I can't leave the house during the day
>
> I can pretty much work around this one and am usually ok w/ it, but
> resentful feelings do sometimes crop up for me, that I'm "trapped" in the
> house (I won't leave them alone in the house when they're sleeping). Maybe
> I just need some thoughtful words here, I don't know. I very much want to
> support them in their current schedules, being they're enjoying it so much.
>
> I'm looking forward to any advice anyone can offer. Thanks!
>
>
>
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Sandra Dodd
-=-I think that at 10 and 12 yrs old your kids should be able to understand
that people who are sleeping should not be disturbed, especially the person
who has to get up and earn the money that makes this whole unschooling life
possible! Turning on the light in a room of sleeping people at 2AM is just
rude. Can you work with your son on that?-=-
If a child can't understand that, he shouldn't be left up alone.
When my kids stayed up late it was always, every time, on a case-by-case, conditional basis. You can stay up IF you can be quiet.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
that people who are sleeping should not be disturbed, especially the person
who has to get up and earn the money that makes this whole unschooling life
possible! Turning on the light in a room of sleeping people at 2AM is just
rude. Can you work with your son on that?-=-
If a child can't understand that, he shouldn't be left up alone.
When my kids stayed up late it was always, every time, on a case-by-case, conditional basis. You can stay up IF you can be quiet.
Sandra
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Rinelle
<--My daughter takes a 3-hour art class once a week at 10am, and loves it. But it can be so difficult to get her up (but I always do, because it's a commitment). When she's fully awake, she wants to keep the commitment and truly loves it, and thanks me for getting her up to go. She's like a grumpy bear going there, and a bouncing ball of sunshine when I pick her up. –>
I was wondering perhaps if her being grumpy has anything to do with wanting to get up in a different way? Personally, if I had to be out the door at 10, I’d set my alarm for 9, lie around in bed for half an hour waking up, then rush around the house like mad to get out the door on time. Other people might like to set their alarm for the latest possible time, then get straight up and rush around the house, or set their alarm early and get straight up and get ready in a leisurely fashion. Might be worth talking to her and finding out which she’s prefer. You might even be able to let her sleep in till the last minute, have everything ready, and she can eat breakfast on the way.
Tamara
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I was wondering perhaps if her being grumpy has anything to do with wanting to get up in a different way? Personally, if I had to be out the door at 10, I’d set my alarm for 9, lie around in bed for half an hour waking up, then rush around the house like mad to get out the door on time. Other people might like to set their alarm for the latest possible time, then get straight up and rush around the house, or set their alarm early and get straight up and get ready in a leisurely fashion. Might be worth talking to her and finding out which she’s prefer. You might even be able to let her sleep in till the last minute, have everything ready, and she can eat breakfast on the way.
Tamara
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
For me as a child and a teen it really did not matter how I woke up. Even when I wanted to wake up for something really special I was always grumpy for a while ,,,, well still am:)
Alex Polikowsky
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Alex Polikowsky
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K Pennell
I also just hear that this father seems disconnected from his family. It seems very sad. I am the full-time working parent in our family, and my family makes a great effort to keep me in the loop and spend time with me when I can. That is so important to me.
Dad's time is more constricted than the rest of the family. He can't change his schedule. The loving thing would be to help the kids change theirs, at least somewhat, so Dad can be more a part of things.
Dad's time is more constricted than the rest of the family. He can't change his schedule. The loving thing would be to help the kids change theirs, at least somewhat, so Dad can be more a part of things.
--- On Wed, 7/4/12, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] kids staying up all night
To: [email protected]
Date: Wednesday, July 4, 2012, 4:15 AM
-=-I think that at 10 and 12 yrs old your kids should be able to understand
that people who are sleeping should not be disturbed, especially the person
who has to get up and earn the money that makes this whole unschooling life
possible! Turning on the light in a room of sleeping people at 2AM is just
rude. Can you work with your son on that?-=-
If a child can't understand that, he shouldn't be left up alone.
When my kids stayed up late it was always, every time, on a case-by-case, conditional basis. You can stay up IF you can be quiet.
Sandra
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------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I also just hear that this father seems disconnected from his family. It seems very sad.-=-
I didn't see it as a father being disconnected. It seemed the whole situation was vague and unclear instead of a solid plan based on the happiness of the greatest number of people. Children should be learning courtesy and consideration.
"It seems very sad" is wistfully critical, instead of clear, well-thought-out and helpful.
It's okay to read and not posts. Posts should attempt to clarify what will help unschooling. :-)
Sometimes arranging for play to take place farther away from sleep helps. Our old house didn't have much option for that, but our second house does.
Sometimes putting a fan in the sleeping room can help, as a sound screen.
Above all and without fail, though, every human anywhere should know that sleep is important and that allowing others to sleep is better for peace, health and safety.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I didn't see it as a father being disconnected. It seemed the whole situation was vague and unclear instead of a solid plan based on the happiness of the greatest number of people. Children should be learning courtesy and consideration.
"It seems very sad" is wistfully critical, instead of clear, well-thought-out and helpful.
It's okay to read and not posts. Posts should attempt to clarify what will help unschooling. :-)
Sometimes arranging for play to take place farther away from sleep helps. Our old house didn't have much option for that, but our second house does.
Sometimes putting a fan in the sleeping room can help, as a sound screen.
Above all and without fail, though, every human anywhere should know that sleep is important and that allowing others to sleep is better for peace, health and safety.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Sometimes people will express (joyfully, giddily) that they are unschoolers and so now their kids stay up all night.
My kids didn't stay up all night except a very few occasions when they were teens.
Sometimes people will brag that their kids eat ice cream for breakfast.
My kids didn't eat ice cream for breakfast. I wouldn't have cared if they had, but they didn't.
Sometimes people will report that now that they're unschoolers, their kids break the rules.
My kids were happy to follow rules, out at museums and in parks. If a sign said stay out of a fountain, or don't cross this barrier, they didn't.
Unschooling should be about peaceful, supportive relationships, about modelling consideration and thoughtful choicemaking, and about learning.
Being loud and wild and "breaking the rules" seems to be a celebratory stage for some people who are new to unschooling, but it shouldn't be the goal or destination. It's not good for that family, really. It's not good for those who wonder what unschooling is about.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sometimes people say that one should not 'throw the baby out with the bathwater,' meaning don't make so huge a change, or don't be so rejecting of something that you lose the valuable parts, too.
It seems some unschoolers want to move away from live as they saw it before, including school and rules, and they've thrown out the bathwater, the baby, and the tub.
Where will you live if you reject your whole culture and don't care about anything or anybody, safety or ownership or logic?
How long will a person stay in a house where he can get no sleep, no rest, no consideration?
How long will unschooling last after a divorce?
How happy can a home be if one or more people in there are very sleep-deprived and unhappy?
It's one thing for a nursing mother to be sleep-deprived because a tiny baby is hungry (or wet, or uncomfortable). That's natural.
It's an entirely different thing for an eight or ten year old to wake people up because his mother thinks being up late proves she's a cool mom, or that unschoolers are awake when other people are asleep, or some other questionable premise.
If a mother is a child's partner, she should be his partner in learning, and in living a peaceful life--not his partner in living wildly and being inconsiderate.
Sandra
My kids didn't stay up all night except a very few occasions when they were teens.
Sometimes people will brag that their kids eat ice cream for breakfast.
My kids didn't eat ice cream for breakfast. I wouldn't have cared if they had, but they didn't.
Sometimes people will report that now that they're unschoolers, their kids break the rules.
My kids were happy to follow rules, out at museums and in parks. If a sign said stay out of a fountain, or don't cross this barrier, they didn't.
Unschooling should be about peaceful, supportive relationships, about modelling consideration and thoughtful choicemaking, and about learning.
Being loud and wild and "breaking the rules" seems to be a celebratory stage for some people who are new to unschooling, but it shouldn't be the goal or destination. It's not good for that family, really. It's not good for those who wonder what unschooling is about.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
http://sandradodd.com/nest
Sometimes people say that one should not 'throw the baby out with the bathwater,' meaning don't make so huge a change, or don't be so rejecting of something that you lose the valuable parts, too.
It seems some unschoolers want to move away from live as they saw it before, including school and rules, and they've thrown out the bathwater, the baby, and the tub.
Where will you live if you reject your whole culture and don't care about anything or anybody, safety or ownership or logic?
How long will a person stay in a house where he can get no sleep, no rest, no consideration?
How long will unschooling last after a divorce?
How happy can a home be if one or more people in there are very sleep-deprived and unhappy?
It's one thing for a nursing mother to be sleep-deprived because a tiny baby is hungry (or wet, or uncomfortable). That's natural.
It's an entirely different thing for an eight or ten year old to wake people up because his mother thinks being up late proves she's a cool mom, or that unschoolers are awake when other people are asleep, or some other questionable premise.
If a mother is a child's partner, she should be his partner in learning, and in living a peaceful life--not his partner in living wildly and being inconsiderate.
Sandra
michelle_mcritchie
Thank you Sandra, I am very new to this list and so still just reading but just what I needed to read.
It's so hard to begin with but I find as I read, read and keep reading I am learning to move past some of the initial assumptions I had about radical unschooling (I use that term because we have unschooled for a few years but not the parenting side of things).
I will continue to read and learn and soon post (I have posted a few things on facebook on your site and the Australian site so that's been helpful).
I have so many questions, but many get answered as I keep reading yours and Joyce's website's particularly.
Thanks again,
Michelle Mc
PS: That gradual change link was very helpful to myself and my husband a few days ago when I found it!!!!
It's so hard to begin with but I find as I read, read and keep reading I am learning to move past some of the initial assumptions I had about radical unschooling (I use that term because we have unschooled for a few years but not the parenting side of things).
I will continue to read and learn and soon post (I have posted a few things on facebook on your site and the Australian site so that's been helpful).
I have so many questions, but many get answered as I keep reading yours and Joyce's website's particularly.
Thanks again,
Michelle Mc
PS: That gradual change link was very helpful to myself and my husband a few days ago when I found it!!!!
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> Sometimes people will express (joyfully, giddily) that they are unschoolers and so now their kids stay up all night.
>
> My kids didn't stay up all night except a very few occasions when they were teens.
>
> Sometimes people will brag that their kids eat ice cream for breakfast.
>
> My kids didn't eat ice cream for breakfast. I wouldn't have cared if they had, but they didn't.
>
> Sometimes people will report that now that they're unschoolers, their kids break the rules.
> My kids were happy to follow rules, out at museums and in parks. If a sign said stay out of a fountain, or don't cross this barrier, they didn't.
>
> Unschooling should be about peaceful, supportive relationships, about modelling consideration and thoughtful choicemaking, and about learning.
>
> Being loud and wild and "breaking the rules" seems to be a celebratory stage for some people who are new to unschooling, but it shouldn't be the goal or destination. It's not good for that family, really. It's not good for those who wonder what unschooling is about.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
> http://sandradodd.com/nest
>
> Sometimes people say that one should not 'throw the baby out with the bathwater,' meaning don't make so huge a change, or don't be so rejecting of something that you lose the valuable parts, too.
>
> It seems some unschoolers want to move away from live as they saw it before, including school and rules, and they've thrown out the bathwater, the baby, and the tub.
>
> Where will you live if you reject your whole culture and don't care about anything or anybody, safety or ownership or logic?
> How long will a person stay in a house where he can get no sleep, no rest, no consideration?
> How long will unschooling last after a divorce?
> How happy can a home be if one or more people in there are very sleep-deprived and unhappy?
>
> It's one thing for a nursing mother to be sleep-deprived because a tiny baby is hungry (or wet, or uncomfortable). That's natural.
> It's an entirely different thing for an eight or ten year old to wake people up because his mother thinks being up late proves she's a cool mom, or that unschoolers are awake when other people are asleep, or some other questionable premise.
>
> If a mother is a child's partner, she should be his partner in learning, and in living a peaceful life--not his partner in living wildly and being inconsiderate.
>
> Sandra
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 5, 2012, at 5:13 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
That's *NOT* what anyone here is saying. (And if anyone is reading where that *is* being said, they should stop!)
Conventional parenting methods often imply that children must put aside their wants and needs if it interferes with anyone else.
But the opposite, letting kids believe their wants and needs should come at the expense of anyone else's needs, is worse.
Whose needs take precedence depends on the situation. Kids shouldn't be expected to just know.
It's up to Mom to be the broader focus to help them meet their needs AND take others into consideration. Help kids find respectful, peaceful, kind, safe, doable ways to explore their interests.
If they've shown they can't figure it out how to be considerate while meeting their needs, if they're then helped to consider other people AND meet their needs, they won't feel like they're in competition with others to be able to do their own thing. (Sometimes the "and" will mean waiting until later which they'll be far more accepting of when Mom has shown through her actions that their wants and needs are important to her.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It's an entirely different thing for an eight or ten year old to wakeOr because it sounds like unschoolers are saying "Let your kids do whatever they want without interference or you'll get in the way of their learning."
> people up because his mother thinks being up late proves she's a cool mom
That's *NOT* what anyone here is saying. (And if anyone is reading where that *is* being said, they should stop!)
Conventional parenting methods often imply that children must put aside their wants and needs if it interferes with anyone else.
But the opposite, letting kids believe their wants and needs should come at the expense of anyone else's needs, is worse.
Whose needs take precedence depends on the situation. Kids shouldn't be expected to just know.
It's up to Mom to be the broader focus to help them meet their needs AND take others into consideration. Help kids find respectful, peaceful, kind, safe, doable ways to explore their interests.
If they've shown they can't figure it out how to be considerate while meeting their needs, if they're then helped to consider other people AND meet their needs, they won't feel like they're in competition with others to be able to do their own thing. (Sometimes the "and" will mean waiting until later which they'll be far more accepting of when Mom has shown through her actions that their wants and needs are important to her.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezignarob
> If a child can't understand that, he shouldn't be left up alone.===I have posted in the past about Jayn's unusual sleep schedule, but it's been a while so a quick recap:
Starting from about 4 or 5, we realized that Jayn's natural sleep/wake rhythm was that she would sleep for 10-12 hours and then stay awake for 16 - 18 hours. The math shows that this is more than 24 hours, so we (she and I) lived on a slow march around the clock. She was too little to be left up alone, and would be very unhappy about it, and trying any method to help her to sleep when she wasn't ready was futile - including nursing, dark rooms, snug nests, warm baths.
What was most peaceful for our household was not to try and fight it, but for me to follow her in that schedule. During the nights a big part of my job was to help her be quiet and considerate, not just of her father asleep in the other room, but our neighbors as well.
Sometimes I was tired, but I could choose to be accepting, patient and tired, or cranky and tired. Most of the time, we had wonderful nights together, as well as wonderful days together. I had various tricks for keeping myself happy, including napping on the sofa while she played, watching movies on my computer while she watched her programs on the tv, making up a picnic food bag to have by her (so that I could nap without being woken), and being very open with our friends about our schedule - so that they will still ask "what's schedule are you on?" when we arrange playdates or outings.
I tried to schedule outings on those days when I could best predict we would be awake anyway. Most of the time it worked.
It was sometimes hard on James, especially when he felt like all the fun was happening at night while he slept, but I tried to make it up to him when we were awake together, and we often talked about how it wouldn't be forever. And it wasn't forever.
As Jayn has gotten older, now 12, two things have changed. First her willingness, ability, and sometimes even preference, to be alone in the night, have changed and allowed me to return to my own more regular sleep schedule. The other is that she is more able to push herself to get up or stay up for particular outings. Her schedule is less predictable, but we spend time looking at our calendar and discussing plans and being awake or not tired for the events that are important to her, such as her dance recital or sleepovers.
Jayn is very quiet, and thoughtful. She will tip toe to the bathroom and if she notices the bedroom door is open, she will close it.
Funnily enough, James has just finished weeks on a movie which was almost entirely night shoots. I immediately found myself switched around to being on nights myself, to fit with him. Jayn and I went up to visit the set a couple of times, and it was awesome fun! Now that he is back on his regular daytime work schedule, back at LAFS, I pretty easily got back to my favorite early mornings (got up today at 5.30am and feel wonderful), while Jayn is on her reverse split (woke up around midnight and will probably hit the hay mid afternoon).
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.etsy.com
www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
Liz
Robyn, thank you so much for writing that!! That sounds like my daughter (and myself sometimes).
I seem to go in cycles throughout the year (of feeling awake more hours than a 24 hour period normally allows, or the total opposite), and my daughter just has always been like this. I've often thought "24 hours is just not enough in the day", not for the reason of getting things done, but often because it just doesn't fit her, and at times mine, natural cycle of sleep/waking hours.
As a baby, during the day, she slept for 15 minutes, then was awake for hours. Never was awake for hours, then sleeping for hours (as my son and all the other babies I knew were). I can't tell you how many times during her toddler/prek years, she'd wake me up at 2am and happily ask "wanna do crafts?" There were so many times we'd get up so as to not disturb hubby and son in the family bed, and go downstairs, and just be awake for the rest of the day. She was just ready. And she never 'crashed' from that cycle. I often wondered if it had something to do w/ how her brain was wired, connected to her seizures in some way. of course who knows...
you post has really helped me to see her cycle more clearly. I always knew it, but didn't *really* know it. I'm going to keep this in mind as she and I try some planning of her schedule. Thank you so much for chiming in!
I seem to go in cycles throughout the year (of feeling awake more hours than a 24 hour period normally allows, or the total opposite), and my daughter just has always been like this. I've often thought "24 hours is just not enough in the day", not for the reason of getting things done, but often because it just doesn't fit her, and at times mine, natural cycle of sleep/waking hours.
As a baby, during the day, she slept for 15 minutes, then was awake for hours. Never was awake for hours, then sleeping for hours (as my son and all the other babies I knew were). I can't tell you how many times during her toddler/prek years, she'd wake me up at 2am and happily ask "wanna do crafts?" There were so many times we'd get up so as to not disturb hubby and son in the family bed, and go downstairs, and just be awake for the rest of the day. She was just ready. And she never 'crashed' from that cycle. I often wondered if it had something to do w/ how her brain was wired, connected to her seizures in some way. of course who knows...
you post has really helped me to see her cycle more clearly. I always knew it, but didn't *really* know it. I'm going to keep this in mind as she and I try some planning of her schedule. Thank you so much for chiming in!
--- In [email protected], "dezignarob" <dezignarob@...> wrote:
>
> > If a child can't understand that, he shouldn't be left up alone.===
>
> I have posted in the past about Jayn's unusual sleep schedule, but it's been a while so a quick recap:
>
> Starting from about 4 or 5, we realized that Jayn's natural sleep/wake rhythm was that she would sleep for 10-12 hours and then stay awake for 16 - 18 hours. The math shows that this is more than 24 hours, so we (she and I) lived on a slow march around the clock. She was too little to be left up alone, and would be very unhappy about it, and trying any method to help her to sleep when she wasn't ready was futile - including nursing, dark rooms, snug nests, warm baths.
>
> What was most peaceful for our household was not to try and fight it, but for me to follow her in that schedule. During the nights a big part of my job was to help her be quiet and considerate, not just of her father asleep in the other room, but our neighbors as well.
>
> Sometimes I was tired, but I could choose to be accepting, patient and tired, or cranky and tired. Most of the time, we had wonderful nights together, as well as wonderful days together. I had various tricks for keeping myself happy, including napping on the sofa while she played, watching movies on my computer while she watched her programs on the tv, making up a picnic food bag to have by her (so that I could nap without being woken), and being very open with our friends about our schedule - so that they will still ask "what's schedule are you on?" when we arrange playdates or outings.
>
> I tried to schedule outings on those days when I could best predict we would be awake anyway. Most of the time it worked.
>
> It was sometimes hard on James, especially when he felt like all the fun was happening at night while he slept, but I tried to make it up to him when we were awake together, and we often talked about how it wouldn't be forever. And it wasn't forever.
>
> As Jayn has gotten older, now 12, two things have changed. First her willingness, ability, and sometimes even preference, to be alone in the night, have changed and allowed me to return to my own more regular sleep schedule. The other is that she is more able to push herself to get up or stay up for particular outings. Her schedule is less predictable, but we spend time looking at our calendar and discussing plans and being awake or not tired for the events that are important to her, such as her dance recital or sleepovers.
>
> Jayn is very quiet, and thoughtful. She will tip toe to the bathroom and if she notices the bedroom door is open, she will close it.
>
> Funnily enough, James has just finished weeks on a movie which was almost entirely night shoots. I immediately found myself switched around to being on nights myself, to fit with him. Jayn and I went up to visit the set a couple of times, and it was awesome fun! Now that he is back on his regular daytime work schedule, back at LAFS, I pretty easily got back to my favorite early mornings (got up today at 5.30am and feel wonderful), while Jayn is on her reverse split (woke up around midnight and will probably hit the hay mid afternoon).
>
> Robyn L. Coburn
> www.iggyjingles.etsy.com
> www.robyncoburn.blogspot.com
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Jayn is very quiet, and thoughtful. She will tip toe to the bathroom and if she notices the bedroom door is open, she will close it.
-=-Funnily enough, James has just finished weeks on a movie which was almost entirely night shoots. I immediately found myself switched around to being on nights myself, to fit with him. Jayn and I went up to visit the set a couple of times, and it was awesome fun! Now that he is back on his regular daytime work schedule, back at LAFS, I pretty easily got back to my favorite early mornings (got up today at 5.30am and feel wonderful), while Jayn is on her reverse split (woke up around midnight and will probably hit the hay mid afternoon). -=-
I liked this, by Robyn.
Last Saturday someone in the group I was speaking to in Leiden asked the same regular question about whether kids didn't need a bedtime so that they could get up for work.
Lately, Kirby (25) is working from 8:30 at night to 8:00 in the morning or some such, four nights a week, with three nights/days off.
Marty (23) is going to work at 4:00 a.m. for a few hours. Sometimes three, sometimes four or five, depending how much work there is. Four days a week, sometimes five, not all in a row. But that leaves all evenings available, though he goes to sleep early those days. Keith said that Marty was still out at fireworks when Keith went to bed at 9:30, which seemed late, for Marty, to Keith. When Marty was a the end of his sixteen year, and all through his 17th, he worked from 6:30 a.m. to 3:00. School hours, basically. Monday through Friday. The reason he was working those hours is that he was a "courtesy clerk" (bagged groceries, cleaned up spills, helped people find things, carried groceries to cars), and because he wasn't in school he could work those hours that schoolkids couldn't. All during that time, Marty went to bed at 9:00 when he was working the next day. It was nothing we advised him to do. I thought he could've done fine going to bed at 10:00 or 11:00, but he made his own schedule, and we were all quiet for him to sleep when he wanted to.
I need to add their two latest schedules (somewhere) to the list I started for The Big Book, page 260. I guess I need a webpage now so I can update it. It goes around the clock now, because the earliest start time was that 6:30 a.m., and the latest was 6:00 pm. I think Kirby had a 10:00 starting time at Blizzard last year. I'll check with him to be sure.
So my main point is that there was no way to prepare the for any of those work schedules by choosing an arbitrary bedtime. What *did* prepare them was their learning from an early age to plan around activities and obligations (with my assistance). And they were always considerate of those who are asleep, and continue to be so.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Funnily enough, James has just finished weeks on a movie which was almost entirely night shoots. I immediately found myself switched around to being on nights myself, to fit with him. Jayn and I went up to visit the set a couple of times, and it was awesome fun! Now that he is back on his regular daytime work schedule, back at LAFS, I pretty easily got back to my favorite early mornings (got up today at 5.30am and feel wonderful), while Jayn is on her reverse split (woke up around midnight and will probably hit the hay mid afternoon). -=-
I liked this, by Robyn.
Last Saturday someone in the group I was speaking to in Leiden asked the same regular question about whether kids didn't need a bedtime so that they could get up for work.
Lately, Kirby (25) is working from 8:30 at night to 8:00 in the morning or some such, four nights a week, with three nights/days off.
Marty (23) is going to work at 4:00 a.m. for a few hours. Sometimes three, sometimes four or five, depending how much work there is. Four days a week, sometimes five, not all in a row. But that leaves all evenings available, though he goes to sleep early those days. Keith said that Marty was still out at fireworks when Keith went to bed at 9:30, which seemed late, for Marty, to Keith. When Marty was a the end of his sixteen year, and all through his 17th, he worked from 6:30 a.m. to 3:00. School hours, basically. Monday through Friday. The reason he was working those hours is that he was a "courtesy clerk" (bagged groceries, cleaned up spills, helped people find things, carried groceries to cars), and because he wasn't in school he could work those hours that schoolkids couldn't. All during that time, Marty went to bed at 9:00 when he was working the next day. It was nothing we advised him to do. I thought he could've done fine going to bed at 10:00 or 11:00, but he made his own schedule, and we were all quiet for him to sleep when he wanted to.
I need to add their two latest schedules (somewhere) to the list I started for The Big Book, page 260. I guess I need a webpage now so I can update it. It goes around the clock now, because the earliest start time was that 6:30 a.m., and the latest was 6:00 pm. I think Kirby had a 10:00 starting time at Blizzard last year. I'll check with him to be sure.
So my main point is that there was no way to prepare the for any of those work schedules by choosing an arbitrary bedtime. What *did* prepare them was their learning from an early age to plan around activities and obligations (with my assistance). And they were always considerate of those who are asleep, and continue to be so.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jay Ford
My son, now almost 14, started staying up all night when he was around 10. He had started playing World of Warcraft, found a bunch of guys online he was playing with. He had always been a night owl. My concern mostly was his health at the time. I made sure there was plenty of easy-to-eat foods available for him. And he already was considerate of those sleeping, as we were living with relatives who had early-to-bed schedules.
If something is coming up that he will need to be awake during the day for, I make him aware a few days in advance so he can adjust his schedule so he's awake. Hasn't been a problem yet.
Jon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If something is coming up that he will need to be awake during the day for, I make him aware a few days in advance so he can adjust his schedule so he's awake. Hasn't been a problem yet.
Jon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]