Clare

Hi, I'm new to unschooling and have been reading for a couple of weeks. I have loads of questions, but am not sure how easy it will be to get my thoughts down, so I hope they make sense!

What do you do with all the things that you want to do differently with your children, as a result of how you were raised? What if there are things that you think you would have found helpful as a child, but that don't fit in particularly well with unschooling principles?

For instance, I was never made or even asked to do any housework when I was younger (parents wanted me to concentrate on schoolwork) and while I probably wasn't complaining at the time, I've since felt like that was actually a disadvantage - a) I had to teach myself everything about household management, cooking etc from books and websites after I'd moved out, and b) I wonder if I had developed good habits earlier, things wouldn't be such a struggle for me now?

I had always resolved that when I had children I would encourage them to be more involved in running the home and teach them these skills earlier on. I appreciate that coercion in this area is a big unschooling no-no, but how would I view it, or readjust my own thinking, in light of it being something I wish my parents had been more strict on?! 

There are things about my childhood that I want to do differently that do fit in with what I'm reading here. Any time there had been an argument or disagreement, or I had behaved "badly", my mum would sit in my room and talk to me about it for what felt like hours. I don't remember a single thing she said or a single specific thing that I'd done, just being in tears curled up in a ball because she wouldn't go away and I couldn't make it stop. It is not uncommon for me to haves dreams/nightmares now about a lack of privacy or personal space (bedrooms with no doors, showers with no curtains, bathrooms with no locks etc). So now if my children ask me to go away, I am gone, no question.

But then what do you do with realising in what ways you were controlled or coerced, and how potentially damaging it was? (I love my mum, but find it difficult to talk to her, and sometimes feel physically very stressed in her presence.) And then when you see grandparents treating your children in a similar way? I love what I'm reading about unschooling, but I'm not enjoying some of the effects of reassessing my own experiences in light of it!

Thanks for reading, 

Clare

http://smoothandeasydays.wordpress.com

Lucy's web

On 1 Jul 2012, at 13:40, Clare wrote:

> And then when you see grandparents treating your children in a similar way? I love what I'm reading about unschooling, but I'm not enjoying some of the effects of reassessing my own experiences in light of it!


Your post resonated with me a lot. I am also new on this list but not new to unschooling.

For me, personally: I gently intervene when I see relatives treating my children in ways that I have left behind. It feels *great* sometimes to do this, and helps to heal some of my own hurts (sue that I don't even realise are there until these opportunities come up). I also do a lot of 'behind the scenes' discussions with my children, explaining why Grandma does this, that, or the other, and also explaining why we don't do that in our immediate family. We discuss different ways they might like to deal with it. Also, of course, there is no compulsion to go and visit Grandma, but fortunately they still like to. ;)

With regards to your questions about housework and cooking skills etc � my girls see housework and cooking going on around them all the time, they already join in a lot with cooking, and sometimes with housework - if they want to. I don't think there's much danger of them growing up without those skills altogether! Very different from being shut away in a room and made to concentrate on "learning" while the rest of "life" happens elsewhere.

Lucy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Juliet Kemp

On Sun, Jul 01, 2012 at 02:19:29PM +0200, Lucy's web wrote:
> On 1 Jul 2012, at 13:40, Clare wrote:
>
> > ***** And then when you see grandparents treating your children in a
> > similar way? I love what I'm reading about unschooling, but I'm not
> > enjoying some of the effects of reassessing my own experiences in
> > light of it! *****
>
> ==== For me, personally: I gently intervene when I see relatives treating
> my children in ways that I have left behind. It feels *great*
> sometimes to do this, and helps to heal some of my own hurts (sue that
> I don't even realise are there until these opportunities come up).
> =====

May I ask if you'd be prepared to share some explicit examples? I'm
wondering about how to manage this, too. My baby is only 4mo currently
and at present grandparental attitudes are close to ours (cuddle 'em &
love 'em! & chat to 'em!) but I think as he gets bigger it's likely that
they'll start using language (e.g. "good boy", other
limits/restrictions/pushing) that we're not using.

> ==== I
> also do a lot of 'behind the scenes' discussions with my children,
> explaining why Grandma does this, that, or the other, and also
> explaining why we don't do that in our immediate family. We discuss
> different ways they might like to deal with it. ====

I like this too!



Best wishes,

Juliet

Sandra Dodd

-=- I also do a lot of 'behind the scenes' discussions with my children, explaining why Grandma does this, that, or the other, and also explaining why we don't do that in our immediate family. We discuss different ways they might like to deal with it. -=-

I think it's better to do this than to try to change grandma.

Sandra

Sandra Dodd

-=- but I think as he gets bigger it's likely that
they'll start using language (e.g. "good boy", other
limits/restrictions/pushing) that we're not using.-=-

I don't think a child hearing "good boy" from a grandparent occasionally is going to hurt him.
Asking a grandparent to change all behavior and expectation because the grandchild has parents who've decided to be unschoolers would probably do more damage than a hundred "good boy" moments.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Clare

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- I also do a lot of 'behind the scenes' discussions with my children, explaining why Grandma does this, that, or the other, and also explaining why we don't do that in our immediate family.   We discuss different ways they might like to deal with it. -=-
> 
> I think it's better to do this than to try to change grandma.
> 
> Sandra
>

Me too! My children are 6, 4 and 2, but I could certainly have "behind the scenes" as a mindset, even if they're not ready for long explanations. I definitely don't want to "change grandma" and I guess I have to be careful not to come across like that (to her especially!). I think what I meant was I don't like the way that finding out about a new way of doing things is making me more judgemental/critical of what I see other people doing with my children, and I need to find ways of dealing with that in myself, becoming more tolerant/accepting/forgiving?

***May I ask if you'd be prepared to share some explicit examples?***

I know this is an example without a solution, but I am now noticing how mum speaks to the children. Lots of telling them what to think, what they'll like, what they do and don't want to do, how to behave... Kind of like a running commentary, and I guess quite controlling. I'm sure it's completely unconscious (she's a *very* verbal person anyway) but I'd never really thought about it before, and now it's driving me crazy! I would love to hear more examples from Lucy (and others) that are more constructive!

***my girls see housework and cooking going on around them all the time, they already join in a lot with cooking, and sometimes with housework - if they want to.***

Thanks for the encouragement. My girls (never my son, lol) often ask to help me in the kitchen, and I try really hard to say yes. I guess it's about trusting that doing it this way will be "enough" - I'm so excited about life and learning being more natural and focused on what they really need and want from it, as opposed to what anyone else thinks. 

Thanks again,

Clare

http://smoothandeasydays.wordpress.com

Meredith

"Clare" <cmccaughren@...> wrote:
>> For instance, I was never made or even asked to do any housework

"Made" and "asked" are two different things (unless you mean "asked" in the way where it's a sweetly phrased demand) and that's Important. It feels different and creates a different set of choices. I've seen moms actively prevent kids and spouses from helping around the house - I think it helps them (the moms) feel in control, but it tends to leave others with a sense of helplessness. That's very, very different from a home where mom graciously does a lot of household work, inviting people to join her or keep her company, offering to show people how things work when and if they're interested.

>>I wonder if I had developed good habits earlier, things wouldn't be such a struggle for me now?
*************

"Develop good habits" is a gigantic myth. Look around at adults you know with messy homes, cars, offices and workshops. Most - the vast majority - were made to participate in housekeeping as kids. The results don't support the theory.

But it's a frequent experience of unschoolers for kids to eventually begin helping voluntarily around the house. It starts with small things that you might need to remind yourself to notice - feeding the pets Some of the time. Putting away groceries. My daughter is very good at reminding me and my partner when we run out of things or something needs to get done - that could be irritating if I wasn't conscious of the fact that She sees herself as being helpful. Then it's sweet.

She's almost eleven and has started bringing dishes to the sink from other rooms, sometimes washing them. That's sweet and helpful of her. Recently I gave her room a really big cleaning and she liked that and is trying to keep it cleaner - in the past she hasn't minded clutter and mess, but now she's finding that she likes to be able to find things without searching. That's new - in the past searching for things has been part of the process, now she wants to skip ahead to using whatever it is she's looking for. Kids interests and priorities change as they get older.

>>> But then what do you do with realising in what ways you were controlled or coerced, and how potentially damaging it was?
**************

Many unschoolers find that by being kinder and more generous to their kids, their own "inner child" gets a chance to heal. Some of those stories are here:
http://sandradodd.com/unexpected

>>And then when you see grandparents treating your children in a similar way?
****************

How are your kids responding? What can you do to help them have a better time visiting grandparents? Those are the things to consider. They're not you, not living your life, and won't necessarily respond the way you expect - and, And!!! they have something you didn't: they have you and you can give them more options. Options like meeting grandparents on "neutral territory" if that helps (as opposed to at grandma's house, meet at a park, for instance). Options like leaving early, or arriving late, or feeding your kids before you go to dinner so there aren't issues over dessert.

It helps to keep in mind that your parents are doing they best they know how - and chances are, like most people, they aren't interested in being taught differently.

---Meredith

Lucy's web

On 1 Jul 2012, at 14:52, Juliet Kemp wrote:

> May I ask if you'd be prepared to share some explicit examples?

In our case "Grandma" is an ex head teacher and "Grandad" an ex university lecturer so in many ways a lot of the 'niggles' between us were to do with education. Once my parents had ascertained that there was solid research behind my parenting choices and it wasn't just one of "Lucy's weird ideas" they seemed happy to stand back and see what happened. 8 years on they are both supporters of the unschooling life, so we are lucky in that way.

One explicit example that sticks in my mind was that whenever I had any kind of 'tantrum' as a child, my mother would laugh at me to distract me and joke me out of it. I hadn't even realised that this was what she'd been doing until I read how disempowering that is in a parenting book. I had even caught myself doing it a bit when my oldest child was a toddler. (She remembers this clearly and also remembers how it felt and we have had a lot of talks about it since).

When I went to collect my girls from Grandma's house one day, my youngest, Molly, was in a huff on the sofa and Grandma related to me how Molly had been upset over something (I can't remember what) and Grandma had tried to cheer her up by teasing her out of it, but it hadn't worked and Molly was still in a grump.

I sat next to Molly and gave her a hug and said things along the lines of: "Did it make you feel that Grandma was laughing at you?" � nod � "Did it make you feel like Grandma didn't care about your feelings?" � nod � etc etc.

I should point out that in my opinion asking direct and suggestive questions like these is not necessarily the best way to empathise with a young child, but I was more focused on making sure that Grandma knew how the situation had felt from Molly's point of view, and that Molly heard that I was not "taking Grandma's side". Molly and I had our own debrief in the car journey home ;) Also Molly and I have a particular 'rapport' and we usually feel pretty much the same about things � she is as aware of this as I am. One of the many wonderful things about this is that I get to see how I would have reacted as a child if I had not been so inhibited. Molly's refusal to be 'coerced' is one of the many things I admire about her!

The next time I saw my Mum she commented that she had always tried to joke me out of my tantrums, I replied that I know and appreciate that now, but it didn't feel like that at the time. I felt a definite sense of 'release' to be able to say it to her. We've never mentioned it since but Grandma doesn't do that anymore. Result.

There are lots of things that Grandma does that I don't � yes, she praises, she cajoles, she insists, she even (gasp) sometimes *teaches* � but to my mind as long as my daughters are aware of what's going on, and don't overtly mind it, then it's O.K. There are lots more "good" things that come from the interaction with my Mum than these slight negatives. It gives us lots of opportunities for discussing coping strategies (after all they will probably experience this kind of treatment in other places sooner or later). And, most importantly, my girls know that they can stop visiting her if they want to, and know that I will support them in that.

I am aware that after an afternoon at Grandma's, there is a definite "detox" kind of process, where the girls usually play more raucously than usual, or are grumpy for a few hours. I see this as an important pressure valve and try not to take it personally, while staying available to discuss things if required. I don't really question them about it, because I know it's usually an accumulation of lots of little things rather than any one big thing that they can put their finger on.

For relatives generally I just make it very clear to my children that I am on their side. I explain "why we do things" to the relative if that seems necessary, but usually as long as my girls know I am not conspiring against them I don't care that much what the more distant relatives think. If my daughters are asked a direct question that I can sense is making them uncomfortable, then I might answer for them, while giving the child in question a wink or a little hug or something, and also leaving plenty of space and opportunity for that child to chime in with something too, if they want to.

I'd definitely say that 'debriefing' and discussing it with the children, and brainstorming coping strategies together, is more powerful than anything I can do to specifically try and stop those kinds of thing happening.

Lucy



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-whenever I had any kind of 'tantrum' as a child, my mother would laugh at me to distract me and joke me out of it. I hadn't even realised that this was what she'd been doing until I read how disempowering that is in a parenting book. -=-

There are a lot of parenting books.
I think there are times to sympathize with a tantrum (especially if the parent was the underlying cause) and times to be light and distracting about it.

If a child is having a tantrum about something that no one could have had any control over whatsoever, like that it has just started snowing, humor and distraction can be wonderful.

If a child is having a tantrum in response to having been ignored or put off or insulted by someone right there, right then, humor and distraction could make it worse.

Sandra

Lucy's web

On 1 Jul 2012, at 16:43, Sandra Dodd wrote:

> If a child is having a tantrum about something that no one could have had any control over whatsoever, like that it has just started snowing, humor and distraction can be wonderful.


Absolutely. But what my Mum was doing was laughing at me having a tantrum � laughing at the way I looked, sounded, acted. And it was definitely hurtful.

Lucy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

otherstar

>>>>What do you do with all the things that you want to do differently with your children, as a result of how you were raised? What if there are things that you think you would have found helpful as a child, but that don't fit in particularly well with unschooling principles?<<<<
I think the first thing that I do is think about WHY I want to change those things. Something else that is important is to figure out what YOUR principles are. People talk about unschooling principles as though they are the be all end all. Yes, this is a radical unschooling list and that is the focus of all discussions but at the same time one needs to be able to figure out if unschooling is something that he/she can realistically do.


>>>>For instance, I was never made or even asked to do any housework when I was younger (parents wanted me to concentrate on schoolwork) and while I probably wasn't complaining at the time, I've since felt like that was actually a disadvantage - a) I had to teach myself everything about household management, cooking etc from books and websites after I'd moved out, and b) I wonder if I had developed good habits earlier, things wouldn't be such a struggle for me now?<<<<



It helps to break things down a bit and look at them within the context of which they occurred. It seems that you are saying, “My parents didn’t make me do housework, therefore I don’t know how to do housework.” Is it possible that there are other reasons that housework is a struggle for you? A lot of times, people will blame things on their parents or how they were raised so that they don’t have to think about things more deeply. You can use stuff like this to figure out what your core beliefs are. If you think that the only way that you would have learned these skills is to be forcefully taught them, then that might be a hindrance to peaceful unschooling. How else could you have learned those skills?



Why is it a struggle? Do you lack motivation to do housework? Do you not know how to do it? Could it be that other things are more important to you than housework? I suck at housework and I was made to do it as a child. All that nagging that my mom did about housework didn’t make me develop good habits. It is actually quite the contrary. I was taught how to cook and clean but that doesn’t mean that I actually like those things. Teaching a child something or making them do something is not going to guarantee “good” habits related to those things.



In a lot of cases, it will lead to decisions that are reactionary. It really helped me to realize that. When I started unschooling, I was very much in reactionary mode. I was reacting to things, good and bad, and was not stopping to think about things logically or within a larger context. I went through a period where I could tell you every single negative thing that my parents ever did and I was trying NOT to do those things. I was focusing on the negative about my parents and everything else. My relationship with my parents and in-laws became less than wonderful and my relationship with my kids was suffering too. Things didn’t really improve until I stopped focusing on the negative and started focusing on the positive. What did my parents and in-laws do right? I wasn’t seeing any of the good things because I was so focused on the bad.




>>>>I had always resolved that when I had children I would encourage them to be more involved in running the home and teach them these skills earlier on. I appreciate that coercion in this area is a big unschooling no-no, but how would I view it, or readjust my own thinking, in light of it being something I wish my parents had been more strict on?! <<<<

It helped me to look at stories where people had families that were strict about those things but had a similar outcome. It doesn’t take much to find stories about adults that say, “My parents made me do (fill in the blank) and now I hate (fill in the blank). For me it isn’t about being strict or not strict. It is about giving my kids information about how the world works. I can show my kids how to do housework and cook without setting up a situation that requires me to be strict. I can share information with my kids without it being part of that either/or dichotomy.




>>>>>There are things about my childhood that I want to do differently that do fit in with what I'm reading here. Any time there had been an argument or disagreement, or I had behaved "badly", my mum would sit in my room and talk to me about it for what felt like hours. I don't remember a single thing she said or a single specific thing that I'd done, just being in tears curled up in a ball because she wouldn't go away and I couldn't make it stop. It is not uncommon for me to haves dreams/nightmares now about a lack of privacy or personal space (bedrooms with no doors, showers with no curtains, bathrooms with no locks etc). So now if my children ask me to go away, I am gone, no question.<<<<<




This line of thinking can be helpful but it can also be hurtful. I used to love sitting and talking for hours, even if it was after I had screwed up. I would much prefer that to the complete withdrawal of attention that my mom would sometimes do. It helped me to realize what I liked and didn’t like but I shouldn’t generalize those things and apply them to my children. I am not my children and my children are not me. I have four girls and each of them are very different and very unique.



>>>>But then what do you do with realising in what ways you were controlled or coerced, and how potentially damaging it was? (I love my mum, but find it difficult to talk to her, and sometimes feel physically very stressed in her presence.) And then when you see grandparents treating your children in a similar way? I love what I'm reading about unschooling, but I'm not enjoying some of the effects of reassessing my own experiences in light of it!<<<<



I am not sure how to explain this but it seems that focusing on being controlled and coerced is giving away your personal power. Yes, I was controlled and coerced as a child but I do not have to focus on that as I move forward. I sometimes think that people get so caught up in the past that they let their pasts control them. There is a good chance that the grandparents are doing the only thing that they know. Grandparents have been around for a really long time. It helps to look at the historical context of when they were living. A lot of the control and coercion that my parents (and other adults) used were done because they felt it was necessary. Both of my parents worked when I was younger. They didn’t have the time or freedom to let us stay up late or have a lot of freedom in some things. That’s not to say we didn’t have any freedom. My parents tried to give us a lot of freedom but what they gave to us was always limited by what they had access to and they did not have access to a lot of free time. A lot of times kids are controlled and coerced because parents and grandparents don’t realize that there is any other way. That thinking is a product of the way they were raised. My parents and grandparents are human beings and they have a life time of experiences that are going to influence their thinking and behavior. Very few of them did anything different because they did not have access to the information that is available today.


Connie


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-What do you do with all the things that you want to do differently with your children, as a result of how you were raised? What if there are things that you think you would have found helpful as a child, but that don't fit in particularly well with unschooling principles?-=-

It depends whether you want to use your time as a parent to relive your own childhood (as many parents do, especially those who press their girls to take ballet, or their boys to play sports, when the kids aren't really so inclined, but the parents wish they themselves had been able to do those things)...
or whether you want to be a good unschooler.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Colleen

****I had always resolved that when I had children I would encourage them to be more involved in running the home and teach them these skills earlier on. I appreciate that coercion in this area is a big unschooling no-no, but how would I view it, or readjust my own thinking, in light of it being something I wish my parents had been more strict on?!****

A lot of perhaps well-intentioned conventional parenting seems to happen as a reaction to how people were raised vs how they wish they were raised (or, somewhat opposite but related, there are parents who think they can raise their child to be "just like me" - and then we get people who loved sports in school trying to turn their book-loving kids into sports-lovers instead, but I digress... ;-)).

Many parents say things like...
If my parents had forced me to study I'd have been better in school and I'd have gotten into a better college -
If my parents had let me go out and party instead of making me study all the time I'd have had more friends and I'd have been happier -

There's a whole bunch more of those - but basically it boils down to "If my parents had done X, I'd have turned out Y" -

Maybe so - but maybe no.
Maybe forcing the person to study would have made them miserable, they'd have rebelled, and they'd have run away from home so they could be their own person.
Maybe the person allowed to party more would have decided that wasn't so fun after all, hunkered down in a chemistry lab, and become a scientist who much preferred solitude to a bunch of friends.

They can't know what would have happened - because it's not the life they lived. They know it's what they wished for, but they can't know what having that wish fulfilled would have been like, and what it would have led to.
But even though they can't know, they spend their time trying to raise their kids the way they wish they had been raised, and hoping their kids will therefore turn out how they think they would have turned out. What a complicated mess that can turn into ;-)

Unschooling is different. Instead of creating for your child the specific chore-filled or study-filled or sports-filled or whatever-filled ;-) life you wish *you* had, unschooling steps away from this and instead asks "who is your child - what does s/he like - what does s/he need?"

For unschooling to work well, a parent needs to spend less time looking in the mirror at themselves, and more time looking at their *child.*
For unschooling to work well, parents need to support their children, as their children explore the world based on their personal interests and passions and questions and curiosities. Knowing your children and knowing what they like and need, and what makes them light up and what makes them withdraw, lets you make their world bigger and better in a way that works *for them* as individual people.

It's not that you never look back. Looking at the past, for example to say "I was spanked, but I will not spank my child" or "I was forced to sit at the dining room table and clean my plate, but I will not force my child to eat" can be useful on occasion, if that helps encourage you to be kind and good to your children.

Looking at the past to say "I wish there had been more love, peace, kindness, acceptance of who I was, etc. in my life - so I will give that to my child" can be useful, as those principles are key in helping unschooling flourish.

But *dwelling* in the past and trying to provide a child with what a parent wishes s/he had (when you get down to the specific experiences, as opposed to the general principles) runs into danger when you focus more on yourself, and less on the child currently in front of you.

You might have wished your parents made you do housework. But making your child do housework won't fix that for you. Your child isn't you. See who they are, and support that. Heal yourself by living in love and joy and *now* :-)

Sandra Dodd

-=-They can't know what would have happened - because it's not the life they lived. They know it's what they wished for, but they can't know what having that wish fulfilled would have been like, and what it would have led to.
But even though they can't know, they spend their time trying to raise their kids the way they wish they had been raised, and hoping their kids will therefore turn out how they think they would have turned out. What a complicated mess that can turn into ;-)-=-

Yes.

Instead of wanting to be controlling in any way for any reason, look toward providing a rich environment with choices.
Become the kind of parent you wish you had had, maybe, but remember that your child is not you. And if what you wish is that your parents had been more controlling, perhaps visit a counsellor. A person who was really neglected probably needs to talk to someone about that, but does not need to become a controlling parent to "make up for it."

And neatness and the ability or desire to clean and organize has a genetic basis anyway.

http://sandradodd.com/chores/genetic

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

otherstar

>>>>A lot of perhaps well-intentioned conventional parenting seems to happen as a reaction to how people were raised vs how they wish they were raised (or, somewhat opposite but related, there are parents who think they can raise their child to be "just like me" - and then we get people who loved sports in school trying to turn their book-loving kids into sports-lovers instead, but I digress... ;-)).<<<<
I was doing some research the other day and came across a really good description of what teacher’s should have. I know that the idea of teaching is outside the scope of radical unschooling. I want to share it because I think word parent should replace teacher.
"Aquinas depicts three things in the character of those who are to teach: stability, clearness, and purity of intention. With stability, the teacher may never stray from the truth; with clearness, he is to teach without obscurity, and the purity of intention, he may seek God's glory and not his own (Specimen Pages from the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas, p. 2)." (Taken from the web page Educational Theory of Thomas Aquinas.)
My application of this statement to parenting would be: There should be three things in the character or parents: stability, clearness, and purity of intention. With stability, the parent may never stray from the truth; with clearness, she is to parent without obscurity, and the purity of intention, she may avoid glorifying herself.
If a parent is not stable and clear or has questionable intentions, then unschooling isn’t going to work very well.
Connie





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pam Sorooshian

On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 5:52 AM, Juliet Kemp <juliet@...> wrote:

> My baby is only 4mo currently
> and at present grandparental attitudes are close to ours (cuddle 'em &
> love 'em! & chat to 'em!) but I think as he gets bigger it's likely that
> they'll start using language (e.g. "good boy", other
> limits/restrictions/pushing) that we're not using.>>
>

I, personally, would give grandparents and other older relatives a whole
LOT of leeway and focus on helping the kids be tolerant and flexible and -
well - clever about how they handle it.

Think of it this way - when you were little and your parents did things to
you - spoke to you certain ways, etc.,- you had NOWHERE else to go. These
WERE supposed to be your resource for comfort and support and they were the
ones doing it. But your children have you for that - so they can withstand
a whole lot from others. It just isn't the same, coming from non-parents!

I'm talking about normal conventional stuff - "good boy" and insisting that
the child take his plate to the kitchen, etc. I always just said, "Auntie's
house - do it her way," things like that. I would draw the line at
something really mean spirited or very demeaning (unless my kid was
handling it just fine on her own). For example, a grandpa who would not
stop teasing even when a kid was crying - or who started calling him sissy
and stuff like that - I'd say, "Okay - I think it is time for us to get a
move on." Later, I might possibly say, "Hey, dad, no more teasing like
that, please." But I probably wouldn't even say anything - he'll get the
message more clearly and take it more easily if we just gently extricate
ourselves when we aren't happy with what's happening. But - take your cues
from the kids - they are probably not reacting the way you are. I would not
worry too much about it, honestly.

Parents of really young children more often need to lighten up than get in
their parets' faces. There are ways for kids to experience the benefits of
having older relatives without having to try to change those older
relatives. Remember that your kids are not you - they don't live with
parents who treat them that way. Don't bristle at every little reminder of
how your parents treated you - it isn't the same for your kids.

Sandra has a wonderful story of her mother-in-law refusing to give Marty (I
think) desert because he didn't clean his plate. She just simply said,
"Here, Marty, you can have mine." No need to try to educate the
mother-in-law about more enlightened parenting practices. She's done being
a mother - already did the damage to her own kids but your kids aren't
growing up with that and seeing or experiencing it on occasion won't be a
big deal.

(Living with grandparents? That would be a different issue and pretty
complex to work through.)

-pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Schuyler

My brother tells a story of his children getting yelled at by our dad. They were driving somewhere in the car and were kind of screwing around in the backseat and my dad got irritated at them and yelled at them. When he told my brother what had happened Sam had a huge response, mostly internal, of fear and adrenaline. When he asked his children what happened, they barely remembered it occuring. It was a non-event to them. They hadn't grown up in a household that was dictated to by my father or by my mother and his or her mood. They didn't need to be fearful, he was a momentary caregiver, whatever happened under his roof was not likely to be a defining event. That story helped me to step back and see how much it is my relationship with my parents that makes me nervous about how they treat Simon and Linnaea. But the truth is that they just don't have that much power over them, so whatever language they use, whatever mood they have, it just isn't going to
be a powerful force in Simon's or Linnaea's life.

Schuyler


________________________________
  
 
On Sun, Jul 01, 2012 at 02:19:29PM +0200, Lucy's web wrote:
> On 1 Jul 2012, at 13:40, Clare wrote:
>
> > ***** And then when you see grandparents treating your children in a
> > similar way? I love what I'm reading about unschooling, but I'm not
> > enjoying some of the effects of reassessing my own experiences in
> > light of it! *****
>
> ==== For me, personally: I gently intervene when I see relatives treating
> my children in ways that I have left behind.  It feels *great*
> sometimes to do this, and helps to heal some of my own hurts (sue that
> I don't even realise are there until these opportunities come up).
> =====

May I ask if you'd be prepared to share some explicit examples? I'm
wondering about how to manage this, too. My baby is only 4mo currently
and at present grandparental attitudes are close to ours (cuddle 'em &
love 'em! & chat to 'em!) but I think as he gets bigger it's likely that
they'll start using language (e.g. "good boy", other
limits/restrictions/pushing) that we're not using.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Joyce Fetteroll

On Jul 1, 2012, at 11:25 AM, otherstar wrote:

> If a parent is not stable and clear or has questionable
> intentions, then unschooling isn�t going to work very well.

How many parents think they aren't those, though? Which means the ideas don't mean the same to everyone.

The first biggest step in doing better is recognizing that you're harming. But parents are told to ignore kids' feedback because it will steer parents toward giving kids the immature things kids think they need and away from the things parents (supposedly) know kids need.

The second big step is having a clear idea of where you want to go. Most parents are steering towards being "good parents" but the definition of good is so vague to be useless. Are you a good parent when your kids are happy? When they get straight As? When they do what they're told?

How can someone do better if they don't realize they don't have a clear goal and are told to ignore the most valuable feedback on whether they're getting warmer or colder?

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Juliet Kemp

On Sun, Jul 01, 2012 at 04:27:25PM +0200, Lucy's web wrote:
>
[ tantrum example -- thanks! ]
*** > There are lots of things that Grandma does that I don't ? yes, she
> praises, she cajoles, she insists, she even (gasp) sometimes *teaches*
> ? but to my mind as long as my daughters are aware of what's going on,
> and don't overtly mind it, then it's O.K. There are lots more "good"
> things that come from the interaction with my Mum than these slight
> negatives. It gives us lots of opportunities for discussing coping
> strategies (after all they will probably experience this kind of
> treatment in other places sooner or later). And, most importantly,
> my girls know that they can stop visiting her if they want to, and
> know that I will support them in that. ***

Yes, you're right, for a lot of small niggles the positives of
grandparent action way outweigh the negatives and (as others have also
said) it's not worth intervening directly with grandparents.

I like the 'debriefing' and strategy-discussion thing, too.

On Sun, Jul 01, 2012 at 09:33:51AM -0700, Pam Sorooshian wrote:
>
> === I, personally, would give grandparents and other older relatives a whole
> LOT of leeway and focus on helping the kids be tolerant and flexible and -
> well - clever about how they handle it. ===

Having thought some more about it, I think a lot of this is about *my*
inner twitch when I hear certain words or phrases or ways of doing
things. Which is a very different thing from "is this bothering my
kid?". So learning to deal with my own discomfort & not project that is
important. From reading other stuff on here & elsewhere, actually this
is a practice which is good & useful in general: separate out my stuff
and deal with that myself :)

Leon's relationship with his grandparents, other relatives, family
friends, etc etc is something that I do see as important & I don't want
to put stress on the other adults by demanding that they fit in with all
the ways in which we do things. As you say, they're not the parents &
Leon has me as backup!

> === I would draw the line at
> something really mean spirited or very demeaning (unless my kid was
> handling it just fine on her own). ===

Yes, I think this is where I too would want to intervene, as low-key as
possible. And I can't honestly think of any of our relatives who *would*
be likely to be actively mean!

At this age (4 mths!) it's definitely a non-issue; I am prone to
thinking things through ahead of time, possibly excessively so :)



Best wishes,

Juliet