Reading When Ready
Catherine Hassall
thank you everyone for taking time to respond to my questions! I
really apreciate the insights and thinkings. I will follow up on
various research ideas (books/links etc) once I get home. In the
meantime, I would be interested if anyone is able to expand on the
advantages of late reading. I remember someone once talking about a
book called 'better late than early' - has anyone read this?
thanks, catherine
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really apreciate the insights and thinkings. I will follow up on
various research ideas (books/links etc) once I get home. In the
meantime, I would be interested if anyone is able to expand on the
advantages of late reading. I remember someone once talking about a
book called 'better late than early' - has anyone read this?
thanks, catherine
----------------------------------------------------------------
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 13, 2012, at 7:48 PM, Catherine Hassall wrote:
Looking for the advantages of late reading suggests that kids who naturally read early should be stopped.
Kids will learn what they're ready for when they're ready for it if they're living in a varied and nurturing environment.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I would be interested if anyone is able to expand on theI think the more telling question to ask is about the advantages of allowing the child to unfold at their own pace. And the disadvantages of pressing kids to understand something they're not ready for.
> advantages of late reading. I remember someone once talking about a
> book called 'better late than early' - has anyone read this?
Looking for the advantages of late reading suggests that kids who naturally read early should be stopped.
Kids will learn what they're ready for when they're ready for it if they're living in a varied and nurturing environment.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Thu, Jun 14, 2012 at 4:46 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
of being part of the world. There is too much reading material everywhere -
if they're ready to read, they have plenty of opportunity to learn. My
middle daughter read well when she was still 3 years old. No teaching -
apparently her 5 year old sister was answering questions for her (what does
this spell?).
Having had one very early reader, one sort of average timing, and one a bit
later - I do think there are disadvantages to early reading. But - that's
like saying there are disadvantages or advantages to early or late walking
or sitting up or saying "Mama." What does it matter? They are going to do
it when they do it.
The huge societal emphasis on reading as early as possible is misplaced,
though, in my opinion, for two reasons - one is that the pushing is
harmful, in and of itself, but also I really think early reading isn't
advantageous for the child.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Looking for the advantages of late reading suggests that kids whoYeah - but it would be hard to stop them. You'd have to deprive the of much
> naturally read early should be stopped.
of being part of the world. There is too much reading material everywhere -
if they're ready to read, they have plenty of opportunity to learn. My
middle daughter read well when she was still 3 years old. No teaching -
apparently her 5 year old sister was answering questions for her (what does
this spell?).
Having had one very early reader, one sort of average timing, and one a bit
later - I do think there are disadvantages to early reading. But - that's
like saying there are disadvantages or advantages to early or late walking
or sitting up or saying "Mama." What does it matter? They are going to do
it when they do it.
The huge societal emphasis on reading as early as possible is misplaced,
though, in my opinion, for two reasons - one is that the pushing is
harmful, in and of itself, but also I really think early reading isn't
advantageous for the child.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
This is a book by the late Raymond Moore. It is a really great book with a
LOT of research-based information about why it is a bad idea to push
reading instruction on young kids.
-pam
LOT of research-based information about why it is a bad idea to push
reading instruction on young kids.
-pam
On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 4:48 PM, Catherine Hassall <cat@...>wrote:
> I remember someone once talking about a
> book called 'better late than early' - has anyone read this?
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
natarsha
Hi
Having a 9 year old who isn't reading 'fluently' or 'much at all' yet I wanted to share something that may be helpful to some.
We have had words on the fridge for a couple of months now and were 'learning' via memorising them each day for about a two weeks. This was for the benefit of her father (whom we don't live with) and Pema obliged this request as it only took out about 2 minutes of her day.
We had 6-8 words on the go at a time, she would read and re-read them and would also read out the words she already knew. Interestingly when I first printed the lists, she knew quite a few of the words in the list already - without any formal instruction - at all.
Pema was 'learing' these words quite quickly and just about each day we would be swapping out words for new ones.
Anyway, the novelty wore off (for both of us)and it wasn't until a week ago (on the announcement that her dad was coming up for a visit) that we revisted the words. I wasn't really sure if she would even remember the words given the month 'break'.
So, Pema stood there, zipped through all the words she had already learnt previously and read out others that we hadn't even looked at before that she did not know then!
I now have first hand experience that kids do learn to read when they are ready without anything that looks like school or is instruction... And even though I already believed that kids do learn on their own from watching my girls, and wanting for both of them to have the opportunity to attain the confidence of reading 'by themselves' (not withstanding a nourishing environment) I still had a little bit of doubt and as mentioned was 'wondering if she would remember the words if they weren't drilled daily' - like traditional schooling.
I'd like to thank everyone who has posted here and on Joyce's and other sites about the experiences of their kids learning to read as they helped me have the courage to trust in my girls and give them this opportunity.
It could still be a few years till Pema is 'fluent' but I have no doubt that it will happen. She is interested in words, wants them read to her and has even said she would like to learn Japanese 'slowly' to help support her interest in Japanese Anime! The dubbed episodes aren't up to date! She may know how to speak Japanese before she can read English! ;)
Natarsha
Having a 9 year old who isn't reading 'fluently' or 'much at all' yet I wanted to share something that may be helpful to some.
We have had words on the fridge for a couple of months now and were 'learning' via memorising them each day for about a two weeks. This was for the benefit of her father (whom we don't live with) and Pema obliged this request as it only took out about 2 minutes of her day.
We had 6-8 words on the go at a time, she would read and re-read them and would also read out the words she already knew. Interestingly when I first printed the lists, she knew quite a few of the words in the list already - without any formal instruction - at all.
Pema was 'learing' these words quite quickly and just about each day we would be swapping out words for new ones.
Anyway, the novelty wore off (for both of us)and it wasn't until a week ago (on the announcement that her dad was coming up for a visit) that we revisted the words. I wasn't really sure if she would even remember the words given the month 'break'.
So, Pema stood there, zipped through all the words she had already learnt previously and read out others that we hadn't even looked at before that she did not know then!
I now have first hand experience that kids do learn to read when they are ready without anything that looks like school or is instruction... And even though I already believed that kids do learn on their own from watching my girls, and wanting for both of them to have the opportunity to attain the confidence of reading 'by themselves' (not withstanding a nourishing environment) I still had a little bit of doubt and as mentioned was 'wondering if she would remember the words if they weren't drilled daily' - like traditional schooling.
I'd like to thank everyone who has posted here and on Joyce's and other sites about the experiences of their kids learning to read as they helped me have the courage to trust in my girls and give them this opportunity.
It could still be a few years till Pema is 'fluent' but I have no doubt that it will happen. She is interested in words, wants them read to her and has even said she would like to learn Japanese 'slowly' to help support her interest in Japanese Anime! The dubbed episodes aren't up to date! She may know how to speak Japanese before she can read English! ;)
Natarsha
Sandra Dodd
-=-So, Pema stood there, zipped through all the words she had already learnt previously and read out others that we hadn't even looked at before that she did not know then!
-=-I now have first hand experience that kids do learn to read when they are ready without anything that looks like school or is instruction...-=-
Yes, but the memorization of "flash cards" does look like school and instruction. When I learned to read they were using "look see" and going by the shapes of the words.
It's great that when you checked again she was reading better, but the fact that you did check and quiz her was also more schoolish than most people should be.
Needing to "answer to" anyone--ex spouse, educational authorities--can hamper the natural unfolding of learning. I understand that not everyone can provide as pure an environment as is ideal.
I'm glad you've had an experience that bolstered your confidence, though, and I hope when such concerns come along in future she won't be pressed to memorize to perform for her dad. I hope he, too, will gain confidence and not quiz her.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-I now have first hand experience that kids do learn to read when they are ready without anything that looks like school or is instruction...-=-
Yes, but the memorization of "flash cards" does look like school and instruction. When I learned to read they were using "look see" and going by the shapes of the words.
It's great that when you checked again she was reading better, but the fact that you did check and quiz her was also more schoolish than most people should be.
Needing to "answer to" anyone--ex spouse, educational authorities--can hamper the natural unfolding of learning. I understand that not everyone can provide as pure an environment as is ideal.
I'm glad you've had an experience that bolstered your confidence, though, and I hope when such concerns come along in future she won't be pressed to memorize to perform for her dad. I hope he, too, will gain confidence and not quiz her.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 1:10 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
they did it so that they could honestly say she was doing some sort of
reading lessons. Sometimes, when there is a need to keep the other parent
happy, memorizing a few things can be really helpful. This works IF the
other parent is satisfied just being assured that some kind of lessons are
being done or if satisfied with the memorized "evidence." Some people would
have seen the list of memorized words and said, "That's not reading," and
been even more unsatisfied with the child's reading "level."
But, I think the point was that the learning happened whether or not they
did the lessons. The surprise to the mom was that when they forgot about
doing them for a few weeks and came back to them, the child had learned a
lot in between.
What I saw in this story is a great way to illustrate what happens in
schools. The teacher is giving lessons and the child is learning so the
teacher assumes it is the lessons causing the learning.
But correlation is not causation.
-pam
> I'm glad you've had an experience that bolstered your confidence, though,I don't think she said if the child actually performed for her dad - or if
> and I hope when such concerns come along in future she won't be pressed to
> memorize to perform for her dad. I hope he, too, will gain confidence and
> not quiz her.>>>
>
they did it so that they could honestly say she was doing some sort of
reading lessons. Sometimes, when there is a need to keep the other parent
happy, memorizing a few things can be really helpful. This works IF the
other parent is satisfied just being assured that some kind of lessons are
being done or if satisfied with the memorized "evidence." Some people would
have seen the list of memorized words and said, "That's not reading," and
been even more unsatisfied with the child's reading "level."
But, I think the point was that the learning happened whether or not they
did the lessons. The surprise to the mom was that when they forgot about
doing them for a few weeks and came back to them, the child had learned a
lot in between.
What I saw in this story is a great way to illustrate what happens in
schools. The teacher is giving lessons and the child is learning so the
teacher assumes it is the lessons causing the learning.
But correlation is not causation.
-pam
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-What I saw in this story is a great way to illustrate what happens in
schools. The teacher is giving lessons and the child is learning so the
teacher assumes it is the lessons causing the learning.
-=-But correlation is not causation.-=-
If teachers believed and admitted that, their paychecks would be seen in a whole different light.
Schools won't stop providing lessons and claiming causation. I don't want any unschoolers to think they should do that, too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
schools. The teacher is giving lessons and the child is learning so the
teacher assumes it is the lessons causing the learning.
-=-But correlation is not causation.-=-
If teachers believed and admitted that, their paychecks would be seen in a whole different light.
Schools won't stop providing lessons and claiming causation. I don't want any unschoolers to think they should do that, too.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
natarsha
--"Yes, but the memorization of "flash cards" does look like school and instruction."--
Thanks for the clarification, she may well have only known the ones she already knew and a few more, but not the ones she wasn't familiar with herself or ready to decrypt, but asked to memorise.
It did look and feel like school. The only time we have done 'school' since unschooling is in this instance and haven't continued after re-visiting the words (they weren't forgotten about, they were ignored, by both of us, but not by the 3 year old who wanted to know some ; ) and then went on to tell me what she thought they were. LOL). If her father brings anything up, I can at least tell him about this experience and am hoping he may be subdued (I certainly wouldn't ask her to perform for him). Hoping, but from past experience, feel his reaction could possibly be as Pam noted --"That's not reading," and be even more unsatisfied with the child's reading "level."-- I am not willing though to continue and will have to deal with that decision when the time arises - if at all.
Murky waters and something that cannot be smoothed out as I'd like, there have been two threats of legal action, one a few months ago, hence the memorisation stint. I also started a blog filled with the richness of our lives, invited him to it, but not even one peek - I know as the invitation wasn't activated. So I can only hope that he is not serious about pursuing legal action. It is a difficult and far from ideal place to be and after all the reading I have done about this and similar situations on the thread (and even posted myself) there is no one answer for our situation, not when you do have to (on occasion) answer to an ex who is never happy with anything that doesn't resemble school-like 'progress' (his favourite word) and even questions his daughter whether or not she is sleeping in her own bed (and not with me and her sister)... There is much he doesn't approve of in our lives and has even requested that I change how we live our personal lives... 'Make her sleep in her own bed'...'Don't have as many animals'...'Make her go to bed at 7.30pm'...'Too much computer time'...
Not great, a lot of 'hope' that he will relax in time (we have known eachother for 18 years... I think he will) and continuing our lives the richest way we can without pondering 'what if's' and letting them seep in, apart from the 'flash cards' from a surge of fear...
Natarsha
Thanks for the clarification, she may well have only known the ones she already knew and a few more, but not the ones she wasn't familiar with herself or ready to decrypt, but asked to memorise.
It did look and feel like school. The only time we have done 'school' since unschooling is in this instance and haven't continued after re-visiting the words (they weren't forgotten about, they were ignored, by both of us, but not by the 3 year old who wanted to know some ; ) and then went on to tell me what she thought they were. LOL). If her father brings anything up, I can at least tell him about this experience and am hoping he may be subdued (I certainly wouldn't ask her to perform for him). Hoping, but from past experience, feel his reaction could possibly be as Pam noted --"That's not reading," and be even more unsatisfied with the child's reading "level."-- I am not willing though to continue and will have to deal with that decision when the time arises - if at all.
Murky waters and something that cannot be smoothed out as I'd like, there have been two threats of legal action, one a few months ago, hence the memorisation stint. I also started a blog filled with the richness of our lives, invited him to it, but not even one peek - I know as the invitation wasn't activated. So I can only hope that he is not serious about pursuing legal action. It is a difficult and far from ideal place to be and after all the reading I have done about this and similar situations on the thread (and even posted myself) there is no one answer for our situation, not when you do have to (on occasion) answer to an ex who is never happy with anything that doesn't resemble school-like 'progress' (his favourite word) and even questions his daughter whether or not she is sleeping in her own bed (and not with me and her sister)... There is much he doesn't approve of in our lives and has even requested that I change how we live our personal lives... 'Make her sleep in her own bed'...'Don't have as many animals'...'Make her go to bed at 7.30pm'...'Too much computer time'...
Not great, a lot of 'hope' that he will relax in time (we have known eachother for 18 years... I think he will) and continuing our lives the richest way we can without pondering 'what if's' and letting them seep in, apart from the 'flash cards' from a surge of fear...
Natarsha
Sandra Dodd
-= I also started a blog filled with the richness of our lives, invited him to it, but not even one peek - I know as the invitation wasn't activated. So I can only hope that he is not serious about pursuing legal action.-=-
Documenting when you told him about the blog, and the date on which you know he hadn't activated it (and maybe update that as time goes along) might help you defend your position of he takes action later. Say you offered this, and he wasn't interested. That lack of interest could be in your favor.
I'm not criticizing what you were doing within your situation. I was making note of the exception so that others here who don't have the social/legal problems won't think that having kids memorize words is a good step toward natural reading.
(I think most people got that, but some might think I was being critical of an individual, rather than clarifying of the intention of the discussion.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Documenting when you told him about the blog, and the date on which you know he hadn't activated it (and maybe update that as time goes along) might help you defend your position of he takes action later. Say you offered this, and he wasn't interested. That lack of interest could be in your favor.
I'm not criticizing what you were doing within your situation. I was making note of the exception so that others here who don't have the social/legal problems won't think that having kids memorize words is a good step toward natural reading.
(I think most people got that, but some might think I was being critical of an individual, rather than clarifying of the intention of the discussion.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-The huge societal emphasis on reading as early as possible is misplaced,
though, in my opinion, for two reasons - one is that the pushing is
harmful, in and of itself, but also I really think early reading isn't
advantageous for the child.-=-
In the 1980s there was a craze about "teaching your baby to read" and there was a book, and there were videos.
What do babies need to read about, though!?
And if a baby reads "Good Night Moon to herself, she misses being able to fall asleep peacefully to the sound and vibration of her mother's voice.
But because our culture has always been excited about "prodigies," all of life becomes a race to do it first.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
though, in my opinion, for two reasons - one is that the pushing is
harmful, in and of itself, but also I really think early reading isn't
advantageous for the child.-=-
In the 1980s there was a craze about "teaching your baby to read" and there was a book, and there were videos.
What do babies need to read about, though!?
And if a baby reads "Good Night Moon to herself, she misses being able to fall asleep peacefully to the sound and vibration of her mother's voice.
But because our culture has always been excited about "prodigies," all of life becomes a race to do it first.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lucy's web
On 16 Jun 2012, at 02:06, natarsha wrote:
You quite likely do this already, but if you are already happily keeping a blog of your activities, then have you thought about tagging each post with the 'curriculum' area that it relates to? That way, if ever a legal bod, or your ex, or whoever asks you: "well, what about science" (or whatever) � you can just quickly and easily select all the posts that are tagged with 'Science', and plonk them in front of the asker. It only takes a minute when you're writing your blog posts, and could save hours of work and stress later on.
Full disclosure from me: I have tried to keep a blog of our life several times, but have never managed to keep up with it! It just struck me that the tagging idea might be useful to you - if you haven't already thought of it.
Lucy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> It is a difficult and far from ideal place to be and after all the reading I have done about this and similar situations on the thread (and even posted myself) there is no one answer for our situation, not when you do have to (on occasion) answer to an ex who is never happy with anything that doesn't resemble school-like 'progress'I am a brand new member here, but not new to unschooling. We live in France and our lifestyle goes very contrary to the education laws here. So I am constantly aware that *one day* we might need to be more accountable with our learning. At the moment we are blissfully under the radar, and of course hope to remain so for as long as possible. ;)
You quite likely do this already, but if you are already happily keeping a blog of your activities, then have you thought about tagging each post with the 'curriculum' area that it relates to? That way, if ever a legal bod, or your ex, or whoever asks you: "well, what about science" (or whatever) � you can just quickly and easily select all the posts that are tagged with 'Science', and plonk them in front of the asker. It only takes a minute when you're writing your blog posts, and could save hours of work and stress later on.
Full disclosure from me: I have tried to keep a blog of our life several times, but have never managed to keep up with it! It just struck me that the tagging idea might be useful to you - if you haven't already thought of it.
Lucy
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