Ways to respectfully help my adult brother sibling
Heather
We are traveling as a family (2 always unschooled kiddos) plus my adult (20s) brother. My brother was not unschooled and we have been mindful of the fact that he is probably deschooling himself and he had a much different childhood than we would have liked. He was raised in the inner city by my aunt who never had children and her verbally abusive boyfriend. However, my brother knows he is different than other young adults and asks if he is slow (mentally). He has never had a full time job and is not able to function as an adult. There is a chance he may have aspergers.
My husband and I are trying to give him some good experience and life skills. Unfortunately, I am feeling overwhelmed and like I need more help and resources to help him. He is an orphan and needs more support than he is getting. My main concerns are that he gets very defensive when he is asked to help with things and he does not offer to help. He doesn't wash his own clothes, he doesn't like to shower, and those sorts of things. He is like a 12 year old boy in a lot of ways. I know if he were raised in a loving homes these thingd would not be a factor for an adult. At this stage in his life, what can we do to help him? I don't know if letting him just sit back and let us do almost everything for him is a good idea or not in the long run. And it feels very heavy for me to ask things of him because he feels like everything is so hard and it creates a combative situation with is not peaceful at all. And not saying anything is very difficult also because I have no experience with this sort of situation and what may be best for him and our family in the long run.
Also, is it a good idea to have him tested (if he wants to be tested) or is a diagnosis a bad idea for his self image? I want the unschooling expert opinion here, please.
He has been with us full time since February. For the most part it has been a good experience for our family. We are strapped financially, but making it work!
Thanks for your help and expert words of wisdom here and on this list.
Sincerely,
Heather Brown
truebluebrowns.com
thefedorables at gmail com
My husband and I are trying to give him some good experience and life skills. Unfortunately, I am feeling overwhelmed and like I need more help and resources to help him. He is an orphan and needs more support than he is getting. My main concerns are that he gets very defensive when he is asked to help with things and he does not offer to help. He doesn't wash his own clothes, he doesn't like to shower, and those sorts of things. He is like a 12 year old boy in a lot of ways. I know if he were raised in a loving homes these thingd would not be a factor for an adult. At this stage in his life, what can we do to help him? I don't know if letting him just sit back and let us do almost everything for him is a good idea or not in the long run. And it feels very heavy for me to ask things of him because he feels like everything is so hard and it creates a combative situation with is not peaceful at all. And not saying anything is very difficult also because I have no experience with this sort of situation and what may be best for him and our family in the long run.
Also, is it a good idea to have him tested (if he wants to be tested) or is a diagnosis a bad idea for his self image? I want the unschooling expert opinion here, please.
He has been with us full time since February. For the most part it has been a good experience for our family. We are strapped financially, but making it work!
Thanks for your help and expert words of wisdom here and on this list.
Sincerely,
Heather Brown
truebluebrowns.com
thefedorables at gmail com
Sandra Dodd
-=-we have been mindful of the fact that he is probably deschooling himself -=-
Why should he deschool himself? He's grown. He went to school.
Maybe in order to help you with your kids he should deschool himself.
My deschooling answer is that if his presence is going to compromise your children's peace, happiness or successful unschooling, you should not let him stay with you.
If you do want to let him stay with you, put conditions on it. If you don't want to require him to have a job bccause you're travelling, remind him that most people would, and do, require any adult staying with them to have an income. If he doesn't have an income he REALLY especially should be doing MORE than his share of work. NOT just his own laundry, but maybe towels. NOT just cleaning up after himself, but cleaning up after the family.
If he is taking ANY of your time and energy away from your own children or the relationship with your husband, he is a drain. He should be a benefit to you, not a detriment.
From an unschooling point of view, that's what I see.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Why should he deschool himself? He's grown. He went to school.
Maybe in order to help you with your kids he should deschool himself.
My deschooling answer is that if his presence is going to compromise your children's peace, happiness or successful unschooling, you should not let him stay with you.
If you do want to let him stay with you, put conditions on it. If you don't want to require him to have a job bccause you're travelling, remind him that most people would, and do, require any adult staying with them to have an income. If he doesn't have an income he REALLY especially should be doing MORE than his share of work. NOT just his own laundry, but maybe towels. NOT just cleaning up after himself, but cleaning up after the family.
If he is taking ANY of your time and energy away from your own children or the relationship with your husband, he is a drain. He should be a benefit to you, not a detriment.
From an unschooling point of view, that's what I see.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Heather
Thank you, I respect your opinion on this matter. I do agree he needs to understand unschooling better to help us and he should be doing more. I wrote him a list of things that would be appreciated for him to be doing to help our family, most are things he could be doing to care for himself and contribute in household ways. All the farms we have been to see him as another child and not carrying his own weight and it has been a big drain and stress on me. The current farm owner we are volunteering for has made some good suggestions also. We are trying to be patient with him, we love him, and want to help him--but yes, it is taking away from the peace. He is not as helpful as a normal adult would be in regards to the kids or in other areas. He is what I would describe as a damaged adult. We are in the Sacramento area for another week or two. I am taking him to the UC Davis dental clinic today to have his wisdom teeth examined, hopefully removed and possibly talk to a neurologist to get his opinion and if there are any programs available to my brother, if he has aspergers or something else.
Sincerely,
Heather Brown
Sincerely,
Heather Brown
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-we have been mindful of the fact that he is probably deschooling himself -=-
>
> If he is taking ANY of your time and energy away from your own children or the relationship with your husband, he is a drain. He should be a benefit to you, not a detriment.
>
> From an unschooling point of view, that's what I see.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Anna Teasdale
Hi heather, i wanted to post to let you know you are not alone. I have an adult aspie brother and an aspie son too. My brother is just like yours in that he doesn't do chores etc. It's not that he's lazy or childish and he had a good childhood. It's simply because he cannot see the neccesity of it. It's not important to him to have good hygene, or have a clean house. He doesn't care what other people think of him. Their opinions don't matter. He also finds it difficult to think of other peoples feelings. This is typical of asd people. What i'm saying is, if you brother has ASD then he would have it regardless of his upbringing. Also try not to take it personally. He may not be able to realise or consider your feelings. Google NAS. Their site is full of help and info. Good luck. I know how difficult it can be. Anna.
Sent from my iAnna4
Sent from my iAnna4
Meredith
"Heather" <brownsplus2@...> wrote:
That sounds like a set-up for frustration - as though you're hoping to teach him something and he may not be interested in learning what you're teaching. It could help to give some serious thought to what your goals and intentions are - is he a guest (maybe in the way your kids are "guests" in your life)? a kind of live-in student? a room-mate? All of those come with different expectations. If he's thinking "I get to live with sis for awhile" and you're thinking "teach him life skills" that could be a serious mis-match.
I know a few adults with mental health issues who need a good bit of extra support in order to function. It can be exausting if you're the only source of support for that person, so it's important to look for other resources. It helps to keep in mind the specific goals and interests of the person in question and help him find ways to meet those goals and interests. What does your brother want to do? I don't mean as a job, necessarily, what are his interests? And while full-time work may not be a good option for him, it may be possible to line him up with some part time, temporary or even volunteer jobs to help him meet his goals - especially if you're willing to do a bit of the legwork yourself and be really honest with prospective employers that your brother needs extra help. In that case, it may be useful to use words like "apergers" or "slow"... it depends on the situation.
I'll repeat what I asked earlier - is he a guest, a roomie, or a student? What's in his room-and-board agreement? Or is that all unstated, with lots of expectations floating around? If you have a clearly stated deal that he helps out, then you have a deal and he's an adult, you can pitch him out for breach of contact. If you're uncomforable with that idea, then maybe it's useful to re-evaluate your deal and clarify things for yourself and your brother. If you're taking care of him, then be clear about that.
What does he want? That's a Really Important question. Do some research beforehand and find out what kind of diagnosis he needs to get on disability (and if he needs to be medicated in order to be seen as "sick enough") and what other, lesser diagnoses still set him up for extra help and services. Some larger employers have special programs to hire people with disabilities, for instance, and some small businesses will hire people with disabilites - we used to have a dairy farm in my neck of the woods which hired people with mental health issues and/or criminal records in order to help them move on to better jobs. Find out as much as you can and offer up that information to help your brother decide what he wants. A diagnosis is, at best, a tool to get resources. But there are adults who are so spooked by "the system" they don't want diagnoses and reject any they get - I know a couple adults who get veeerrry angry and defensive about "labelling" when the subject comes up, even though everyone around them knows they need extra help. So it can be better to back off on that issue and find other ways to be helpful.
---Meredith
>> My husband and I are trying to give him some good experience and life skills.*****************
That sounds like a set-up for frustration - as though you're hoping to teach him something and he may not be interested in learning what you're teaching. It could help to give some serious thought to what your goals and intentions are - is he a guest (maybe in the way your kids are "guests" in your life)? a kind of live-in student? a room-mate? All of those come with different expectations. If he's thinking "I get to live with sis for awhile" and you're thinking "teach him life skills" that could be a serious mis-match.
>>Unfortunately, I am feeling overwhelmed and like I need more help and resources to help him. He is an orphan and needs more support than he is getting.*****************
I know a few adults with mental health issues who need a good bit of extra support in order to function. It can be exausting if you're the only source of support for that person, so it's important to look for other resources. It helps to keep in mind the specific goals and interests of the person in question and help him find ways to meet those goals and interests. What does your brother want to do? I don't mean as a job, necessarily, what are his interests? And while full-time work may not be a good option for him, it may be possible to line him up with some part time, temporary or even volunteer jobs to help him meet his goals - especially if you're willing to do a bit of the legwork yourself and be really honest with prospective employers that your brother needs extra help. In that case, it may be useful to use words like "apergers" or "slow"... it depends on the situation.
>> My main concerns are that he gets very defensive when he is asked to help with things and he does not offer to help.*****************
I'll repeat what I asked earlier - is he a guest, a roomie, or a student? What's in his room-and-board agreement? Or is that all unstated, with lots of expectations floating around? If you have a clearly stated deal that he helps out, then you have a deal and he's an adult, you can pitch him out for breach of contact. If you're uncomforable with that idea, then maybe it's useful to re-evaluate your deal and clarify things for yourself and your brother. If you're taking care of him, then be clear about that.
> Also, is it a good idea to have him tested (if he wants to be tested) or is a diagnosis a bad idea for his self image? I want the unschooling expert opinion here, please*****************
What does he want? That's a Really Important question. Do some research beforehand and find out what kind of diagnosis he needs to get on disability (and if he needs to be medicated in order to be seen as "sick enough") and what other, lesser diagnoses still set him up for extra help and services. Some larger employers have special programs to hire people with disabilities, for instance, and some small businesses will hire people with disabilites - we used to have a dairy farm in my neck of the woods which hired people with mental health issues and/or criminal records in order to help them move on to better jobs. Find out as much as you can and offer up that information to help your brother decide what he wants. A diagnosis is, at best, a tool to get resources. But there are adults who are so spooked by "the system" they don't want diagnoses and reject any they get - I know a couple adults who get veeerrry angry and defensive about "labelling" when the subject comes up, even though everyone around them knows they need extra help. So it can be better to back off on that issue and find other ways to be helpful.
---Meredith
Meredith
Anna Teasdale <tiggywig_114@...> wrote:
He sounds like a bachelor... does that mean most men have aspergers until they get married? Really, I lived with guys like this in college - they're not nearly as funky and oblivious now.
---Meredith
> This is typical of asd people.Generalizations like that push my buttons in a big way as they make people with aspergers seem like they're all the same... and sociopaths, besides. I know some folks with aspergers and they very much care what other people think and feel, sometimes much more so than other people. One common description "from the inside" is that people with aspergers are more sensitive different subsections of environmental data, including the data provided by other people. Sometimes that means it's helpful to flat-out explain social niceties which would be obvious to others - because they have a harder time screening out the socially relevant parts of the data.
>>It's not important to him to have good hygene, or have a clean house. He doesn't care what other people think of him. Their opinions don't matter. He also finds it difficult to think of other peoples feelings.****************
He sounds like a bachelor... does that mean most men have aspergers until they get married? Really, I lived with guys like this in college - they're not nearly as funky and oblivious now.
---Meredith
K Pennell
I do think, whether he has Asperger's or not, it could be beneficial to you and to him to spell out what you would like him to do, and why (so he knows it is about helping you, not that he is failing). Maybe you can explain how you are feeling and how he can help your household while he is there.
Some people are unsure what to do to help, or feel they need the what and why spelled out clearly. My husband dislikes having guests do the dishes. He'd never take it upon himself to do someone's dishes, because to him, it is inserting yourself where it doesn't belong If someone wanted help, they'd ask. For my parents, they would never ask a guest to help, but would feel very upset if a guest never offered to help. Communication styles can be very different and create needless problems.
Some people are unsure what to do to help, or feel they need the what and why spelled out clearly. My husband dislikes having guests do the dishes. He'd never take it upon himself to do someone's dishes, because to him, it is inserting yourself where it doesn't belong If someone wanted help, they'd ask. For my parents, they would never ask a guest to help, but would feel very upset if a guest never offered to help. Communication styles can be very different and create needless problems.
--- On Mon, 6/11/12, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
From: Meredith <plaidpanties666@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Ways to respectfully help my adult brother sibling
To: [email protected]
Date: Monday, June 11, 2012, 8:38 PM
Anna Teasdale <tiggywig_114@...> wrote:
> This is typical of asd people.
Generalizations like that push my buttons in a big way as they make people with aspergers seem like they're all the same... and sociopaths, besides. I know some folks with aspergers and they very much care what other people think and feel, sometimes much more so than other people. One common description "from the inside" is that people with aspergers are more sensitive different subsections of environmental data, including the data provided by other people. Sometimes that means it's helpful to flat-out explain social niceties which would be obvious to others - because they have a harder time screening out the socially relevant parts of the data.
>>It's not important to him to have good hygene, or have a clean house. He doesn't care what other people think of him. Their opinions don't matter. He also finds it difficult to think of other peoples feelings.
****************
He sounds like a bachelor... does that mean most men have aspergers until they get married? Really, I lived with guys like this in college - they're not nearly as funky and oblivious now.
---Meredith
------------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Mon, Jun 11, 2012 at 5:38 PM, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
read an article about this recently and it was very interesting and in line
with a couple of people I know who have an Asperger's diagnosis.
Meredith - could you explain a bit more?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> One common description "from the inside" is that people with aspergers areDid this get garbled a little? It is worth restating more clearly! I also
> more sensitive different subsections of environmental data, including the
> data provided by other people.
read an article about this recently and it was very interesting and in line
with a couple of people I know who have an Asperger's diagnosis.
Meredith - could you explain a bit more?
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
> All the farms we have been to see him as another child and notDid he make an agreement with you to volunteer at these farms? I agree
> carrying his own weight and it has been a big drain and stress on
> me. The current farm owner we are volunteering for has made some
> good suggestions also.
with Meredith here:
-=- I'll repeat what I asked earlier - is he a guest, a roomie, or a
student? What's in his room-and-board agreement? Or is that all
unstated, with lots of expectations floating around? If you have a
clearly stated deal that he helps out, then you have a deal and he's
an adult, you can pitch him out for breach of contact. If you're
uncomforable with that idea, then maybe it's useful to re-evaluate
your deal and clarify things for yourself and your brother. If you're
taking care of him, then be clear about that. -=-
I'm sure you want to help him, but is what you're doing making it
harder for him? Does he like farm work and traveling? You have the
altruistic motives of giving him experience and life skills, but is he
ready for those and does he want them?
I realize he isn't your child, so you're not exactly unschooling him.
But looking at him as you do your kids (what does he enjoy, what is he
passionate about, how can you facilitate his interests?) might help
you figure out why things aren't working.
I also realize he's an adult age-wise, but since it appears he has
mental health issues that need more support than you are able or
willing to give, then you might want to rethink your expectations and
the whole arrangement.
Robin B.
Meredith
Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
People with aspergers are more sensitive to different subsections of environmental data.
Another way to put that would be that different parts of the perceptual field are "louder" or "brighter" - sometimes literally, but not always. I'm not sure there is a way to state it simply though, without saying something so banal (like "they perceive the world differently) that they stop seeming human.
It helps to keep in mind that, to an extent, this is normal. A simple example is people who are kind of literal-minded - they might know what someone means by a particular word or expression, but the literal meaning of the words, their history and derivation, is so "loud" in their minds that what's meant is less significant. It's the sort of thing which can make people really fascinating conversationalists and great punsters, but it can also get in the way and lead a person to shut down and avoid certain kinds of conversations because they're just too complicated. There's a degree to which being literal minded is normal, though. And there's a degree to which, combined with a certain amount of self-awareness, it's a fabulous asset.
One fellow I know is so sensitive to cause and effect relationships that he's sometimes overwhelmed when he can't find a "cause" - he'll stop in the middle of cooking dinner to check the sky, barometer, and weather reports to find a cause for a shift in the temperature and humidity. He once spent several weeks researching a quirk of speech my daughter has. He's not oblivious to human emotions, but can get so wrapped up in ideas about where behavior comes from he can't focus on relationship issues. He actually likes high-drama relationships for that reason - if something is important, his girl or boyfriend will throw a tantrum and he can focus on that and finding its cause. He's made a lot of money as a programmer because he's good at resolving technical problems on the level of code.
---Meredith
>> Did this get garbled a little? It is worth restating more clearly!I left out a word!
People with aspergers are more sensitive to different subsections of environmental data.
Another way to put that would be that different parts of the perceptual field are "louder" or "brighter" - sometimes literally, but not always. I'm not sure there is a way to state it simply though, without saying something so banal (like "they perceive the world differently) that they stop seeming human.
It helps to keep in mind that, to an extent, this is normal. A simple example is people who are kind of literal-minded - they might know what someone means by a particular word or expression, but the literal meaning of the words, their history and derivation, is so "loud" in their minds that what's meant is less significant. It's the sort of thing which can make people really fascinating conversationalists and great punsters, but it can also get in the way and lead a person to shut down and avoid certain kinds of conversations because they're just too complicated. There's a degree to which being literal minded is normal, though. And there's a degree to which, combined with a certain amount of self-awareness, it's a fabulous asset.
One fellow I know is so sensitive to cause and effect relationships that he's sometimes overwhelmed when he can't find a "cause" - he'll stop in the middle of cooking dinner to check the sky, barometer, and weather reports to find a cause for a shift in the temperature and humidity. He once spent several weeks researching a quirk of speech my daughter has. He's not oblivious to human emotions, but can get so wrapped up in ideas about where behavior comes from he can't focus on relationship issues. He actually likes high-drama relationships for that reason - if something is important, his girl or boyfriend will throw a tantrum and he can focus on that and finding its cause. He's made a lot of money as a programmer because he's good at resolving technical problems on the level of code.
---Meredith
Heather
--- In [email protected], Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
He is very excited when we were in the 4-5 National Parks camping and we had a good time. It is not realistic for us to camp all the time though. He also enjoyed Las Vegas a great deal. We also house sit together, but in remote locations. We all want to do that again, but near a large town, if possible.
Thanks for the dialog!! All your help is appreciated!
~Heather
>Honestly, none of this was thoroughly discussed. He was excited about working on farms when we first started and says he wants to get as much out of the farm experience for future jobs and life experience. He does not have any set goals right now for his life. He hasn't talked about getting a job or what he wants to do with life. He is a black belt in martial arts and he wants to do more with that in the future, but he hasn't talked specifics about that. He also wanted to go pro with Halo Reach last year and was very into chess this spring. He has lots of ideas, but nothing concrete, at the moment.
> > All the farms we have been to see him as another child and not
> > carrying his own weight and it has been a big drain and stress on
> > me. The current farm owner we are volunteering for has made some
> > good suggestions also.
>
> Did he make an agreement with you to volunteer at these farms? I agree with Meredith here:
>
> -=- I'll repeat what I asked earlier - is he a guest, a roomie, or a student? What's in his room-and-board agreement?
He is very excited when we were in the 4-5 National Parks camping and we had a good time. It is not realistic for us to camp all the time though. He also enjoyed Las Vegas a great deal. We also house sit together, but in remote locations. We all want to do that again, but near a large town, if possible.
Thanks for the dialog!! All your help is appreciated!
~Heather