Is this unschooling?
Robin Bentley
Over at a conference Facebook page, there's a discussion going on
about appropriate and legal behavior. It's been a good discussion, for
the most part.
One of the issues that came up was leaving underage kids at the pool
(the hotel rule is no kids 12 and under without an adult). Posters
began to talk about why they come to conferences and their
responsibility to and for their kids while there. I mentioned
facilitating Senna's experience, that I felt her needs came first, as
the main reason we're there is for her to be with friends and share
her interests; what I get to do is a lovely bonus!
Then this, from a new conference goer:
-=- One of the things I like best about the Unschooling concept is
that it really applies to all of us. Essentially, if any human is
allowed to pursue his/her passion - they will be happier than if not.
So, digging deeper into unschooling made me look at myself and my
husband as people with valid needs and desires, as well. After 12
years of "putting the kids first," it became "putting all of us
first." And, the kids like that better.
It is so cool when my 13 year old son says, "Mom - you need more time
to write. So, you should write when [name of younger child] is at the
library in the morning, then when I come home - you should leave. Go
to the cafe or the library, so you can focus and write."
And, we all encourage Papa to go out walking and taking photos and
enjoy books, movies, etc. This year at [the conference], while I was
always available to my kids (10 and 13), they mostly didn't need me -
like [another mom] said - they see me all the time at home.
Predicting this would be the case, I planned a "writing retreat" for
myself. How often do I get 5 days in a row with no animal chores, in
an all-inclusive environment where my kids are surrounded by friends
and helpful adults? I hope we all take the time to "unschool"
ourselves, as well as our kids. -=-
That page is not a place to debate philosophy, so I thought I'd bring
that post here for some dissection :-)
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about appropriate and legal behavior. It's been a good discussion, for
the most part.
One of the issues that came up was leaving underage kids at the pool
(the hotel rule is no kids 12 and under without an adult). Posters
began to talk about why they come to conferences and their
responsibility to and for their kids while there. I mentioned
facilitating Senna's experience, that I felt her needs came first, as
the main reason we're there is for her to be with friends and share
her interests; what I get to do is a lovely bonus!
Then this, from a new conference goer:
-=- One of the things I like best about the Unschooling concept is
that it really applies to all of us. Essentially, if any human is
allowed to pursue his/her passion - they will be happier than if not.
So, digging deeper into unschooling made me look at myself and my
husband as people with valid needs and desires, as well. After 12
years of "putting the kids first," it became "putting all of us
first." And, the kids like that better.
It is so cool when my 13 year old son says, "Mom - you need more time
to write. So, you should write when [name of younger child] is at the
library in the morning, then when I come home - you should leave. Go
to the cafe or the library, so you can focus and write."
And, we all encourage Papa to go out walking and taking photos and
enjoy books, movies, etc. This year at [the conference], while I was
always available to my kids (10 and 13), they mostly didn't need me -
like [another mom] said - they see me all the time at home.
Predicting this would be the case, I planned a "writing retreat" for
myself. How often do I get 5 days in a row with no animal chores, in
an all-inclusive environment where my kids are surrounded by friends
and helpful adults? I hope we all take the time to "unschool"
ourselves, as well as our kids. -=-
That page is not a place to debate philosophy, so I thought I'd bring
that post here for some dissection :-)
Robin B.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
My kids are younger at 9 ( will be 10 in a couple weeks) and 6.
I get to do a lot for me compared to even a year ago.
I still want to share everything with my kids.
Right now Gigi has her best friend over and she is playing in the play room or her room.
I miss her. She is within an ear shot.
Last Monday at a homeschool party I mentioned that I miss my kids if I am away from them for more than an hour.
Only one other parent, a homeschool stay-at-home-dad said he did too.
The others said they were happy to be away from the kids doing others stuff.
My thoughts, maybe they should not be homeschooling and I am glad they are not unschooling.
Maybe it is easy to feel that way because I am an older parent that got to do a lot before kids and I
I would not trade any of it for my kids.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I get to do a lot for me compared to even a year ago.
I still want to share everything with my kids.
Right now Gigi has her best friend over and she is playing in the play room or her room.
I miss her. She is within an ear shot.
Last Monday at a homeschool party I mentioned that I miss my kids if I am away from them for more than an hour.
Only one other parent, a homeschool stay-at-home-dad said he did too.
The others said they were happy to be away from the kids doing others stuff.
My thoughts, maybe they should not be homeschooling and I am glad they are not unschooling.
Maybe it is easy to feel that way because I am an older parent that got to do a lot before kids and I
I would not trade any of it for my kids.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 11:01 AM, Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...>wrote:
parent to be more attentive are those whose parents take advantage of all
those other helpful adults to have their own "retreat."
This topic came up at our park day yesterday, too - about campouts, not
conferences, but the same issue of some parents thinking unschooling events
are a great time to "trust" their kids to be on their own, knowing that
other parents will watch out for them.
I feel very strongly about this. I don't think ANY parent should be "on
retreat" unless they have specifically arranged for another adult to BE
that child's helpful adult.
I think parents should be responsible. Not shadow the kids constantly,
although some kids need a watchful parent to head off problems. But to be
aware of where a child is, what's going on in the hotel (or conference
grounds or campout or wherever they are) to check in relatively often and
even if just as a distant walk by to take stock of a child's body language
- is he tired, does she look happy, is he getting too wound up and needs
just a moment of distraction and calming, who is he hanging with, does she
seem overwhelmed or lonely or at loose ends or getting frustrated?? On and
on - all the things an attentive parent checks out in their kids on a
regular basis.
I have many times helped a child - a crying, upset, hurt, scared, or very
angry child or a child who was doing something inappropriate or dangerous.
I think it is nice - that we do have a community of kind and generous
adults who step up to help kids. I always help if I can.
However, I resent the assumption that the rest of us are there to look
after other people's kids. Self-centered, ego-centric thinking. Not good.
Just yesterday someone was talking about having nice long conversations at
an event with another particular person. I was kind of floored because "I"
(and others) had spent time at that same event helping out that particular
person's young children who were quite volatile, disruptive, and even
destructive. So I was being helpful and handling difficult situations with
kids I didn't even know while their mom was having nice long conversations
with someone "I" would have loved to have been having a nice long
conversation with. Not right.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Predicting this would be the case, I planned a "writing retreat" forVery often it seems to me that the very kids who actually do need their
> myself. How often do I get 5 days in a row with no animal chores, in
> an all-inclusive environment where my kids are surrounded by friends
> and helpful adults? I hope we all take the time to "unschool"
> ourselves, as well as our kids. -=-
>
parent to be more attentive are those whose parents take advantage of all
those other helpful adults to have their own "retreat."
This topic came up at our park day yesterday, too - about campouts, not
conferences, but the same issue of some parents thinking unschooling events
are a great time to "trust" their kids to be on their own, knowing that
other parents will watch out for them.
I feel very strongly about this. I don't think ANY parent should be "on
retreat" unless they have specifically arranged for another adult to BE
that child's helpful adult.
I think parents should be responsible. Not shadow the kids constantly,
although some kids need a watchful parent to head off problems. But to be
aware of where a child is, what's going on in the hotel (or conference
grounds or campout or wherever they are) to check in relatively often and
even if just as a distant walk by to take stock of a child's body language
- is he tired, does she look happy, is he getting too wound up and needs
just a moment of distraction and calming, who is he hanging with, does she
seem overwhelmed or lonely or at loose ends or getting frustrated?? On and
on - all the things an attentive parent checks out in their kids on a
regular basis.
I have many times helped a child - a crying, upset, hurt, scared, or very
angry child or a child who was doing something inappropriate or dangerous.
I think it is nice - that we do have a community of kind and generous
adults who step up to help kids. I always help if I can.
However, I resent the assumption that the rest of us are there to look
after other people's kids. Self-centered, ego-centric thinking. Not good.
Just yesterday someone was talking about having nice long conversations at
an event with another particular person. I was kind of floored because "I"
(and others) had spent time at that same event helping out that particular
person's young children who were quite volatile, disruptive, and even
destructive. So I was being helpful and handling difficult situations with
kids I didn't even know while their mom was having nice long conversations
with someone "I" would have loved to have been having a nice long
conversation with. Not right.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kris
The idea is so foreign that I entirely missed what she was saying the first
time through. Beyond the selfish factor I question the assumption of
safety. To infer trustworthiness based on attendance of an unschooling
conference is unwise.
Kris
time through. Beyond the selfish factor I question the assumption of
safety. To infer trustworthiness based on attendance of an unschooling
conference is unwise.
Kris
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 11:33 AM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
> However, I resent the assumption that the rest of us are there to look
> after other people's kids. Self-centered, ego-centric thinking. Not good.
>
--
�We all question our place in the future. The artist�s job is not to
succumb to despair but to find an antidote for the emptiness of existence.
You have a clear and lively voice. Don�t be such a defeatist.� Gertrude
Stein, Midnight In Paris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-To infer trustworthiness based on attendance of an unschooling
conference is unwise.-=-
The larger a group gets, the less safety is likely.
Exactly as there is more danger in a city than a town, a small meeting, gathering or social group can be extremely safe, but with the addition of each individual or family, the "circle" is larger, an eventually the cohesion is gone, the group is several small groups, and people can be there who are insufficiently assimilated or invested to have the qualities or the connections that each individual in a small group/village/family has.
In a group of five or ten, nobody is there who doesn't know someone. Or if someone shows up who is unknown, EVERYone there knows that the person is new. They are assimilated or not accepted.
At a large conference, there could easily be someone there for three or four days that no one else knew, but that everyone assumed others knew.
Sandra
conference is unwise.-=-
The larger a group gets, the less safety is likely.
Exactly as there is more danger in a city than a town, a small meeting, gathering or social group can be extremely safe, but with the addition of each individual or family, the "circle" is larger, an eventually the cohesion is gone, the group is several small groups, and people can be there who are insufficiently assimilated or invested to have the qualities or the connections that each individual in a small group/village/family has.
In a group of five or ten, nobody is there who doesn't know someone. Or if someone shows up who is unknown, EVERYone there knows that the person is new. They are assimilated or not accepted.
At a large conference, there could easily be someone there for three or four days that no one else knew, but that everyone assumed others knew.
Sandra
Meredith
>After 12**************
> years of "putting the kids first," it became "putting all of us
> first." And, the kids like that better.
I can't help wondering if mom took "putting the kids first" to an extreme of not meeting her own needs, or rarely, so that the whole family suffered as a result. Sometimes moms make that mistake, thinking it's the right thing to do as a "good" mom or in response to personal baggage.
"Putting all of us first" can be another kind of trap - an "equal shares" kind of trap. You had "your time" yesterday, so today its mine. Or "all of us" can be seen as a special kind of unit: you can't have/do/be something that's not compatible with "all of us". Sometimes that's expressed as "we're an x family".
Personally, I find it better to put kindness first. When kids are little, it's kinder to give their needs and desires prioritiy - and not just kinder to the kids. It feels good to offer kindness and sweetness to your kids. It meets parents needs, as parents, to see joyful children.
>> It is so cool when my 13 year old son says, "Mom - you need more timeThat might be cool. Now and then my daugther will say "you could go sew" (or write, or knit) if I'm kicking around the house looking for something to do. She says it the same way she'd say "you could play this game with me" - a friendly suggestion.
> to write.
But if mom's been a martyr in the past, "putting the children first" then it could be a relief to have her out of the way.
---Meredith
Jenny Cyphers
***Predicting this would be the case, I planned a "writing retreat" for
myself. How often do I get 5 days in a row with no animal chores, in
an all-inclusive environment where my kids are surrounded by friends
and helpful adults? I hope we all take the time to "unschool"
ourselves, as well as our kids. -=- ***
I had one kid to keep track of and that was hard! I'm really glad I had the help of half a dozen teens! There was only one time during the conference when I didn't know exactly where my kid was. I knew who she was with though and kept myself visible in the lobby until I saw the parent of the kid who she was with.
In that one moment, he was a helpful adult who knew exactly where my daughter was when I wasn't exactly sure. If I had been seriously concerned I would have set out a search and found her.
The point is that I knew where my daughter was and who she was with during the entire conference, aside from that one time. I checked in with her frequently and missed speakers and chats to ensure that she was okay and had food and whatever else she needed. I found myself tag teaming with a couple of parents of the kids that she was playing with.
I love conferences but I, in no way, consider them vacations. They are fun and intense and require far more attention and involvement than any vacation! I think that's probably true for any outing that involves lots of kids!
I help out kids when I see that they need help. There were moments when I found that I was involved with other kids in ways that I felt their parents should have been there instead. Not big things, but helping kids clean up messes that they made and picking up after their games or finding something or other or finding their parent. When my kids were young I was always RIGHT there. My youngest is 10, almost 11, and she doesn't want me RIGHT there all the time.
When I was right there, I cleaned up after her and did things for her that she needed and kept her secure by knowing I was near. To me, it's more than just a parenting thing, it's a personal responsibility thing. For the same reason that I didn't send my babies to daycare so that I could work, I didn't have kids so that someone else would look after them and be with them and take care of them. I'm just a tiny bit selfish that way... I wanted my kids to be with ME!
That stuff came way before I ever decided to even keep my oldest out of school and it continued the same way when I kept her home.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
myself. How often do I get 5 days in a row with no animal chores, in
an all-inclusive environment where my kids are surrounded by friends
and helpful adults? I hope we all take the time to "unschool"
ourselves, as well as our kids. -=- ***
I had one kid to keep track of and that was hard! I'm really glad I had the help of half a dozen teens! There was only one time during the conference when I didn't know exactly where my kid was. I knew who she was with though and kept myself visible in the lobby until I saw the parent of the kid who she was with.
In that one moment, he was a helpful adult who knew exactly where my daughter was when I wasn't exactly sure. If I had been seriously concerned I would have set out a search and found her.
The point is that I knew where my daughter was and who she was with during the entire conference, aside from that one time. I checked in with her frequently and missed speakers and chats to ensure that she was okay and had food and whatever else she needed. I found myself tag teaming with a couple of parents of the kids that she was playing with.
I love conferences but I, in no way, consider them vacations. They are fun and intense and require far more attention and involvement than any vacation! I think that's probably true for any outing that involves lots of kids!
I help out kids when I see that they need help. There were moments when I found that I was involved with other kids in ways that I felt their parents should have been there instead. Not big things, but helping kids clean up messes that they made and picking up after their games or finding something or other or finding their parent. When my kids were young I was always RIGHT there. My youngest is 10, almost 11, and she doesn't want me RIGHT there all the time.
When I was right there, I cleaned up after her and did things for her that she needed and kept her secure by knowing I was near. To me, it's more than just a parenting thing, it's a personal responsibility thing. For the same reason that I didn't send my babies to daycare so that I could work, I didn't have kids so that someone else would look after them and be with them and take care of them. I'm just a tiny bit selfish that way... I wanted my kids to be with ME!
That stuff came way before I ever decided to even keep my oldest out of school and it continued the same way when I kept her home.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Personally, I find it better to put kindness first. When kids are little, it's kinder to give their needs and desires prioritiy - and not just kinder to the kids. It feels good to offer kindness and sweetness to your kids. It meets parents needs, as parents, to see joyful children. -=-
And it makes the parent kinder.
I'm hanging out with other unschooling families in Europe for a while here. It's okay with my kids, because they're all past their teens. :-)
Because I gave them TONS of time and attention, they're now solid and capable and not needy or in danger of being in trouble without me there to watch them. Putting all of us first would not have gotten us to the independent place we are now. And Keith is an introvert, so time to himself is heaven. He has endured my presence and my talkativeness for a long, long time. :-) He doesn't mind a break. I LOVE E-MAIL!!!! We can keep in touch, and they can ask where things are if they can't find them. :-)
If everyone is generous to everyone else, they can create enough to feel abundant.
If each person is measuring to make sure she gets her share, that creates suspicion and resentment and neediness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And it makes the parent kinder.
I'm hanging out with other unschooling families in Europe for a while here. It's okay with my kids, because they're all past their teens. :-)
Because I gave them TONS of time and attention, they're now solid and capable and not needy or in danger of being in trouble without me there to watch them. Putting all of us first would not have gotten us to the independent place we are now. And Keith is an introvert, so time to himself is heaven. He has endured my presence and my talkativeness for a long, long time. :-) He doesn't mind a break. I LOVE E-MAIL!!!! We can keep in touch, and they can ask where things are if they can't find them. :-)
If everyone is generous to everyone else, they can create enough to feel abundant.
If each person is measuring to make sure she gets her share, that creates suspicion and resentment and neediness.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- There were moments when I found that I was involved with other kids in ways that I felt their parents should have been there instead. Not big things, but helping kids clean up messes that they made and picking up after their games or finding something or other or finding their parent. -=-
I did some of that, but I didn't mind at all, because partly (in the case of picking up) it was because I didn't have kids with me and had extra time and patience. :-)
And also, it was a case of it bothering me more than it was bothering others, so straightening up was selfish in that it made me feel better, and generous in that it was creating a space for future play.
Had I thought that I was doing it because one mom was up in her room having a writing retreat at my expense, it would not have seemed so much like a generous gift anymore.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I did some of that, but I didn't mind at all, because partly (in the case of picking up) it was because I didn't have kids with me and had extra time and patience. :-)
And also, it was a case of it bothering me more than it was bothering others, so straightening up was selfish in that it made me feel better, and generous in that it was creating a space for future play.
Had I thought that I was doing it because one mom was up in her room having a writing retreat at my expense, it would not have seemed so much like a generous gift anymore.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 7, 2012, at 2:21 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:
But to put it in perspective, as a big introvert (and an older parent) I did enjoy my time when Kat was off with friends.
That didn't mean I preferred it. It's possible to enjoy both :-)
Though I do enjoy how Schuyler and others describe working towards being fulfilled by fulfilling their kids' needs. It's a big viewpoint shift that turns someone to being more (internally) peaceful.
************************** begin Schuyler quote **************************
I don't know what did it, but I can almost pinpoint the minute when I turned
from feeling a need to have my own needs met in a separate but equal kind of way
to seeing how being with Simon and Linnaea was meeting my needs in the most
involved and deep way. We were playing a game on the floor and I just sat and
watched and listened and my cup ran over. Before then, there were moments, there
were flitting bits of fulfilment, but somehow, in that moment all those moments
cumulated and showed me, viscerally, the way to meet my own needs by meeting
theirs.
Does that sound like martyrdom? Maybe. What did it take? It took being in Toys R
Us one day and getting really hungry and getting really unhappy and recognising
that the two things were linked. It took making sure that I wasn't hungry. It
took smelling their heads when I was making lists of things that needed to be
done away from them, a sort of biofeedback that pulled me back into them and
turned my head from the chores that I was lining up to go and do. It took a
growing awareness that they were at least as engaging and interesting as the
things I was thinking of doing or that I was thinking would fill me up. And it
took a real recognition that when I got "my time" it didn't satiate my needs, it
didn't even begin to meet them.
For me, it was very clearly incremental, it was a step by step building from
small changes to a point where I was in a position to find personal fulfilment
in being with my children. It wasn't martyrdom, or it didn't feel as though I'd
sacrificed myself for their joy. It did help to get the almost kinetic memory of
being kind to them, of meeting them where they were instead of expecting them to
meet me where I was.
************************** end Schuyler quote **************************
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The others said they were happy to be away from the kids doing others stuff.I suspect you're right about the parents who see connecting with kids as draining.
> My thoughts, maybe they should not be homeschooling and I am glad they are not unschooling.
But to put it in perspective, as a big introvert (and an older parent) I did enjoy my time when Kat was off with friends.
That didn't mean I preferred it. It's possible to enjoy both :-)
Though I do enjoy how Schuyler and others describe working towards being fulfilled by fulfilling their kids' needs. It's a big viewpoint shift that turns someone to being more (internally) peaceful.
************************** begin Schuyler quote **************************
I don't know what did it, but I can almost pinpoint the minute when I turned
from feeling a need to have my own needs met in a separate but equal kind of way
to seeing how being with Simon and Linnaea was meeting my needs in the most
involved and deep way. We were playing a game on the floor and I just sat and
watched and listened and my cup ran over. Before then, there were moments, there
were flitting bits of fulfilment, but somehow, in that moment all those moments
cumulated and showed me, viscerally, the way to meet my own needs by meeting
theirs.
Does that sound like martyrdom? Maybe. What did it take? It took being in Toys R
Us one day and getting really hungry and getting really unhappy and recognising
that the two things were linked. It took making sure that I wasn't hungry. It
took smelling their heads when I was making lists of things that needed to be
done away from them, a sort of biofeedback that pulled me back into them and
turned my head from the chores that I was lining up to go and do. It took a
growing awareness that they were at least as engaging and interesting as the
things I was thinking of doing or that I was thinking would fill me up. And it
took a real recognition that when I got "my time" it didn't satiate my needs, it
didn't even begin to meet them.
For me, it was very clearly incremental, it was a step by step building from
small changes to a point where I was in a position to find personal fulfilment
in being with my children. It wasn't martyrdom, or it didn't feel as though I'd
sacrificed myself for their joy. It did help to get the almost kinetic memory of
being kind to them, of meeting them where they were instead of expecting them to
meet me where I was.
************************** end Schuyler quote **************************
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Yes I love what Schuyler wrote. I love Schuyler period!
I do enjoy time away. Like now my kids are sleeping and I am writing and then I will go water my garden.
I have fun when I go to the movies with girlfriends . I still miss them and think of them all the time and I rush home so happy to see them.
The attitude of those parents was totally different.
If you are not happy to come home to your children after you had some "time off" then maybe just send them to school.
They are not a burden.
Brian and I always felt the same. When kids were little we never felt like getting away. We would just miss them too much and we still feel the same but now that they are older we would be OK going to the movies or a gathering without the kids but I know we would be happy to run back home to them when done!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I do enjoy time away. Like now my kids are sleeping and I am writing and then I will go water my garden.
I have fun when I go to the movies with girlfriends . I still miss them and think of them all the time and I rush home so happy to see them.
The attitude of those parents was totally different.
If you are not happy to come home to your children after you had some "time off" then maybe just send them to school.
They are not a burden.
Brian and I always felt the same. When kids were little we never felt like getting away. We would just miss them too much and we still feel the same but now that they are older we would be OK going to the movies or a gathering without the kids but I know we would be happy to run back home to them when done!
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>It struck me that perhaps these kids have been told many times "I
> It is so cool when my 13 year old son says, "Mom - you need more time
> to write. So, you should write when [name of younger child] is at the
> library in the morning, then when I come home - you should leave. Go
> to the cafe or the library, so you can focus and write."
>
don't have enough time to myself to write" which really meant "you
kids take up too much of my time." Whether that was said or implied by
whining or sighing or whatever, the kids got the message.
> So, digging deeper into unschooling made me look at myself and myNow that everyone gets "put first" (meaning "mom") the kids are, of
> husband as people with valid needs and desires, as well. After 12
> years of "putting the kids first," it became "putting all of us
> first." And, the kids like that better.
course, going to be happier. Their mom isn't the victim of their
childhood anymore. She's off their backs. It's the old saw: "If mama
ain't happy, ain't nobody happy."
I'd be happier if my mom was doing something she wanted to do instead
of trying to make me feel bad. I'd be trying to get her to go to a
cafe, too.
Robin B.