Motivating my daughter
louise.king76
hello,
I'm new to this group but really like what I am reading and need some Unschooling help.
I live in the UK and have been homeschooling my son aged 5 and my daughter aged 11 for the past 3 years.
When we first started homeschooling it was wonderful, we did follow a curriculum because I am a trained Steiner Waldorf Teacher and my daughter went to a Steiner KG and Class 1.
We live in a beautiful rural village in the English countryside and every morning we would take a walk, then return home to put my son down for his nap while my daughter and I would draw and write about what we had seen on our walk, the seasons, some music and maybe some number work. It was bliss!
But as my son grew out of his naps things became difficult, I just couldn't meet the needs of both children. So we haven't done any "sit down" work for at least a year but we are still doing Ballet and flute lessons which my daughter loves but at home my daughter seems to have become progressively frustrated, unhappy and now demotivated. We are even thinking of trying school in September.
Here in the UK the Homeschooling/Unschooling movement is not as progressive as in the US, so there isn't much support. We have a few homeschooling friends but not many of either my daughter's or my son's age so that causes a lot of frustration. They see the friends they have a few times a week and as we live in small community, we see a lot of other people too, but my daughter wants to have a friend over everyday!!!. Nothing ever seems enough for her.
I believe we are Unschooling as we don't do any book work and have just been living and learning which is how I like it, I have let go of all the Steiner stuff, but my daughter seems so demotivated.
So, what I am asking for help with is....can anyone advise HOW i can possibly meet the needs of both my 5 year old and my 11 year old at the same time? AND how can I help my daughter "Unschool" but motivate her?
I love having my children with me and I really want to make this all work so I'm grateful for any advice.
thank you
louise
I'm new to this group but really like what I am reading and need some Unschooling help.
I live in the UK and have been homeschooling my son aged 5 and my daughter aged 11 for the past 3 years.
When we first started homeschooling it was wonderful, we did follow a curriculum because I am a trained Steiner Waldorf Teacher and my daughter went to a Steiner KG and Class 1.
We live in a beautiful rural village in the English countryside and every morning we would take a walk, then return home to put my son down for his nap while my daughter and I would draw and write about what we had seen on our walk, the seasons, some music and maybe some number work. It was bliss!
But as my son grew out of his naps things became difficult, I just couldn't meet the needs of both children. So we haven't done any "sit down" work for at least a year but we are still doing Ballet and flute lessons which my daughter loves but at home my daughter seems to have become progressively frustrated, unhappy and now demotivated. We are even thinking of trying school in September.
Here in the UK the Homeschooling/Unschooling movement is not as progressive as in the US, so there isn't much support. We have a few homeschooling friends but not many of either my daughter's or my son's age so that causes a lot of frustration. They see the friends they have a few times a week and as we live in small community, we see a lot of other people too, but my daughter wants to have a friend over everyday!!!. Nothing ever seems enough for her.
I believe we are Unschooling as we don't do any book work and have just been living and learning which is how I like it, I have let go of all the Steiner stuff, but my daughter seems so demotivated.
So, what I am asking for help with is....can anyone advise HOW i can possibly meet the needs of both my 5 year old and my 11 year old at the same time? AND how can I help my daughter "Unschool" but motivate her?
I love having my children with me and I really want to make this all work so I'm grateful for any advice.
thank you
louise
Pam Sorooshian
We can't help you know exactly how to make your home life more sparkly, but
it sounds like that's what you really should be asking.
This might be way off the mark, but here's a stab at something that might
help you take a new approach.
You are not your daughter and she is not you.
I know that seems obvious on one level, but I've noticed, over the years,
that those moms who are drawn to the Waldorf stuff seem to have particular
trouble with this idea and often have a very sweet and idealized vision, in
their own mind, of what children are like and what life with children is
like. But it is a very constricted way of seeing the world - it is limiting
(literally in that many things are not allowed) and more generally in that
it creates a sort of funnel vision in people.
It may very possibly be that you are not meeting your daughter's needs
because you aren't currently able to recognize them. I know you said you're
not doing the Waldorf stuff, but are you still living within its limits and
trying to raise a "natural" child? Are you still limiting television and
not allowing plastic toys or black crayons and offering only certain kinds
of reading and activities such as sewing and music? If so, remember she's
not you - you might be happy within the limits you're setting (you may not
even be aware you're setting them), but she could be happier if you didn't
limit.
Maybe check your own thinking for ways you're limiting - and branch out
more - push your own limits and offer more excitement, more new and
different stuff.
Also, it is very possible that she is by nature far more social than you
and now she's 11 which tends to be a time of increased focus on friends -
are you really doing what you can to help her have the level of social life
that works for her or are you thinking a few days a week "should be" enough
for her? She's not you. You said, "but my daughter wants to have a friend
over everyday!!!. Nothing ever seems enough for her." That was a pretty
dismissive statement about her needs. If you say nothing seems enough for
her, then it lets you off the hook for providing enough since it cannot be
done. I doubt you meant it that way, but our words sometimes reveal inner
subconscious thinking - so that a look at that. It isn't remotely strange
or abnormal for her to want to spend time with friends every day. Some kids
want their friends around pretty much all the time - all day and
overnighter and most of the next day would be an ideal play date for them.
Long long long times to hang out and play - hours and hours - seem to be
really important to some kids. A few hours long play date can even be
frustrating to them and almost worse then no play date at all. They feel
like they just got started "settling in" with the other kids and it is
over. Again - she is not you. You may be really happy with 2 hours hanging
out with a friend, having a cup of tea, chatting. That may be great social
time for you - but she's not you.
Also, she's 11 and entering puberty - are you offering new and exciting and
more grown-up opportunities to her? Can you take her out at night to a
concert or something? Take her and a friend? Really be sure you're not
hanging onto her young childness and that you're honoring her for the young
woman she's becoming.
If you tell us more about her, we might be able to offer more specific
suggestions about things you could offer that might sparkle up her life.
-pam
it sounds like that's what you really should be asking.
This might be way off the mark, but here's a stab at something that might
help you take a new approach.
You are not your daughter and she is not you.
I know that seems obvious on one level, but I've noticed, over the years,
that those moms who are drawn to the Waldorf stuff seem to have particular
trouble with this idea and often have a very sweet and idealized vision, in
their own mind, of what children are like and what life with children is
like. But it is a very constricted way of seeing the world - it is limiting
(literally in that many things are not allowed) and more generally in that
it creates a sort of funnel vision in people.
It may very possibly be that you are not meeting your daughter's needs
because you aren't currently able to recognize them. I know you said you're
not doing the Waldorf stuff, but are you still living within its limits and
trying to raise a "natural" child? Are you still limiting television and
not allowing plastic toys or black crayons and offering only certain kinds
of reading and activities such as sewing and music? If so, remember she's
not you - you might be happy within the limits you're setting (you may not
even be aware you're setting them), but she could be happier if you didn't
limit.
Maybe check your own thinking for ways you're limiting - and branch out
more - push your own limits and offer more excitement, more new and
different stuff.
Also, it is very possible that she is by nature far more social than you
and now she's 11 which tends to be a time of increased focus on friends -
are you really doing what you can to help her have the level of social life
that works for her or are you thinking a few days a week "should be" enough
for her? She's not you. You said, "but my daughter wants to have a friend
over everyday!!!. Nothing ever seems enough for her." That was a pretty
dismissive statement about her needs. If you say nothing seems enough for
her, then it lets you off the hook for providing enough since it cannot be
done. I doubt you meant it that way, but our words sometimes reveal inner
subconscious thinking - so that a look at that. It isn't remotely strange
or abnormal for her to want to spend time with friends every day. Some kids
want their friends around pretty much all the time - all day and
overnighter and most of the next day would be an ideal play date for them.
Long long long times to hang out and play - hours and hours - seem to be
really important to some kids. A few hours long play date can even be
frustrating to them and almost worse then no play date at all. They feel
like they just got started "settling in" with the other kids and it is
over. Again - she is not you. You may be really happy with 2 hours hanging
out with a friend, having a cup of tea, chatting. That may be great social
time for you - but she's not you.
Also, she's 11 and entering puberty - are you offering new and exciting and
more grown-up opportunities to her? Can you take her out at night to a
concert or something? Take her and a friend? Really be sure you're not
hanging onto her young childness and that you're honoring her for the young
woman she's becoming.
If you tell us more about her, we might be able to offer more specific
suggestions about things you could offer that might sparkle up her life.
-pam
On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 10:25 AM, louise.king76 <louise.j.king@...>wrote:
> So, what I am asking for help with is....can anyone advise HOW i can
> possibly meet the needs of both my 5 year old and my 11 year old at the
> same time? AND how can I help my daughter "Unschool" but motivate her?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Regan
It sounds like your daughter is needing more than is currently available to her. Are you able to help her to have more of what she loves? Perhaps school would be able to meet her needs better?
Unschooling is very different from 'not doing any bookwork' and 'just living and learning'. An essential ingredient in unschooling is helping children explore the world in the ways that they themselves are drawn to. What would your daughter love to do? How can you respond to those desires in ways that are likely to delight her?
Unschooling parents respond creatively to their childrens needs. If your daughter's current options are progressively less fulfilling for her, something/s need to be changed in her world. A Steiner curriculum is very prescriptive of what children (all children!) need at different stages regardless of their passions. Unschooling parents help their particular children as they are at this point in their lives.
You've been referring to your daughter as "demotivated". Motivation has connotations of what somebody does to someone else - they motivate them. Unschooling parents "support" their children rather than motivating them. "Demotivated" implies that the problem is with her. But some changes in her environment/circumstances will likely see the problem disappear.
It might help to think of yourself in your daughter's position. If you found your environment somewhat boring, dull, "frustrating", unable to meet your needs, would you want someone to motivate you? Or would you love some new and exciting things brought into your world, more of the things you already love, more understanding by those close to you of *your* experience of the world, more support for making what you love and are likely to love, happen?
Time to think creatively about how to help your daughter feel happy and fulfilled - forget motivation. She will be in the best position to learn, if she's happily engaged with her world.
Debbie.
Unschooling is very different from 'not doing any bookwork' and 'just living and learning'. An essential ingredient in unschooling is helping children explore the world in the ways that they themselves are drawn to. What would your daughter love to do? How can you respond to those desires in ways that are likely to delight her?
Unschooling parents respond creatively to their childrens needs. If your daughter's current options are progressively less fulfilling for her, something/s need to be changed in her world. A Steiner curriculum is very prescriptive of what children (all children!) need at different stages regardless of their passions. Unschooling parents help their particular children as they are at this point in their lives.
You've been referring to your daughter as "demotivated". Motivation has connotations of what somebody does to someone else - they motivate them. Unschooling parents "support" their children rather than motivating them. "Demotivated" implies that the problem is with her. But some changes in her environment/circumstances will likely see the problem disappear.
It might help to think of yourself in your daughter's position. If you found your environment somewhat boring, dull, "frustrating", unable to meet your needs, would you want someone to motivate you? Or would you love some new and exciting things brought into your world, more of the things you already love, more understanding by those close to you of *your* experience of the world, more support for making what you love and are likely to love, happen?
Time to think creatively about how to help your daughter feel happy and fulfilled - forget motivation. She will be in the best position to learn, if she's happily engaged with her world.
Debbie.
On 06/06/2012, at 3:25 AM, louise.king76 wrote:
> hello,
> I'm new to this group but really like what I am reading and need some Unschooling help.
> I live in the UK and have been homeschooling my son aged 5 and my daughter aged 11 for the past 3 years.
> When we first started homeschooling it was wonderful, we did follow a curriculum because I am a trained Steiner Waldorf Teacher and my daughter went to a Steiner KG and Class 1.
> We live in a beautiful rural village in the English countryside and every morning we would take a walk, then return home to put my son down for his nap while my daughter and I would draw and write about what we had seen on our walk, the seasons, some music and maybe some number work. It was bliss!
> But as my son grew out of his naps things became difficult, I just couldn't meet the needs of both children.
> So we haven't done any "sit down" work for at least a year but we are still doing Ballet and flute lessons which my daughter loves but at home my daughter seems to have become progressively frustrated, unhappy and now demotivated. We are even thinking of trying school in September.
>
> Here in the UK the Homeschooling/Unschooling movement is not as progressive as in the US, so there isn't much support. We have a few homeschooling friends but not many of either my daughter's or my son's age so that causes a lot of frustration. They see the friends they have a few times a week and as we live in small community, we see a lot of other people too, but my daughter wants to have a friend over everyday!!!. Nothing ever seems enough for her.
>
> I believe we are Unschooling as we don't do any book work and have just been living and learning which is how I like it, I have let go of all the Steiner stuff, but my daughter seems so demotivated.
> So, what I am asking for help with is....can anyone advise HOW i can possibly meet the needs of both my 5 year old and my 11 year old at the same time? AND how can I help my daughter "Unschool" but motivate her?
>
> I love having my children with me and I really want to make this all work so I'm grateful for any advice.
> thank you
>
> louise
>
>
Meredith
"louise.king76" <louise.j.king@...> wrote:
She's a very social person - and at 11, her 5yo sibling isn't exactly going to be a great source of sociability. It's up to you to help her find more ways to socialize.
I'm going through something similar at the moment - my daughter is 10, almost 11, and lately has been really wanting more friends. We live way out in the country, so that's complicated, but we're actively working on creating more opportunities for her to socialize both online and in person.
Does your daughter play any online games? For some kids, that's a great way to socialize.
Does she like to shop and visit larger towns? Maybe you can arrange for the younger child to spend a day with friends and take her on an adventure into a big town or city - a "girls day out" or something. If there are homeschool meeting-ups within a couple hours drive, that could be a way to find farther-flung friends for your daughter to visit either as day trips or over-nights.
Does your daughter enjoy the company of adults? If lots of driving isn't feasible for you, maybe there's a neighbor or adult friend who would like to take her shopping. I have a friend with two boys who periodically takes Mo out shopping and doing other "girly" things. She otherwise doesn't tend to do "girl stuff" but with Rachel, she's all girl and loves going out with her - and my friend gets a little girl to hang out with for a day, a nice break from her home full of boy fun.
With your kids so far apart in age, it may not be reasonable to expect to find things they'll both enjoy. My kids are 8yrs apart and it was rare when I could find things they both liked to do.
---Meredith
> They see the friends they have a few times a week and as we live in small community, we see a lot of other people too, but my daughter wants to have a friend over everyday!!!.****************
She's a very social person - and at 11, her 5yo sibling isn't exactly going to be a great source of sociability. It's up to you to help her find more ways to socialize.
I'm going through something similar at the moment - my daughter is 10, almost 11, and lately has been really wanting more friends. We live way out in the country, so that's complicated, but we're actively working on creating more opportunities for her to socialize both online and in person.
Does your daughter play any online games? For some kids, that's a great way to socialize.
Does she like to shop and visit larger towns? Maybe you can arrange for the younger child to spend a day with friends and take her on an adventure into a big town or city - a "girls day out" or something. If there are homeschool meeting-ups within a couple hours drive, that could be a way to find farther-flung friends for your daughter to visit either as day trips or over-nights.
Does your daughter enjoy the company of adults? If lots of driving isn't feasible for you, maybe there's a neighbor or adult friend who would like to take her shopping. I have a friend with two boys who periodically takes Mo out shopping and doing other "girly" things. She otherwise doesn't tend to do "girl stuff" but with Rachel, she's all girl and loves going out with her - and my friend gets a little girl to hang out with for a day, a nice break from her home full of boy fun.
With your kids so far apart in age, it may not be reasonable to expect to find things they'll both enjoy. My kids are 8yrs apart and it was rare when I could find things they both liked to do.
> I love having my children with meHonestly, the older your kids get the more they're likely to want to spend time with other people. That's not some kind of critique of you or your parenting, it's natural for a whole lot of kids to expand out and away from mom and dad over time. It's pretty common for unschoolers with teens to do a lot of driving, taking kids to friends or clubs or other things.
---Meredith
in4mkaren
> Unschooling is very different from 'not doing any bookwork' and 'just living and learning'. An essential ingredient in unschooling is helping children explore the world in the ways that they themselves are drawn to.I'm new to this group too and have been scanning the conversations. I have an almost 10 yo DS and a 7 yo DD. When my son was three I had a revelation about him that lead me down the unschooing path. I am also a trained elementary teacher although I only officially taught 1 year of middle school.
As I read your messages, I see a lot about strewing, about how unschooling isn't just living and learning or not doing any bookwork, and it scares me. I know my weakness has been to go about doing things I want to do and sometimes dragging them along. This year I've been better about putting aside the time I want to spend on the computer answering e-mail, for instance, and pay attention to them. And even though I like to cook dinner alone while watching TV, when my daughter asked to cook with me, I said yes. I worry that I don't pay attention to them enough though. I don't really "strew" as I imagine that word to mean.
I say yes often. I believe that their play is learning. They are mostly into what they can do with their bodies and having fun versus being very curious about how the world works. I tell them that they are their own best teachers but I am here to help. We go to the library, more frequently this year than ever before. They are interested in fiction but not in biographies or other non-fiction. We've been devouring fiction books on CD recently.
When they express interest in something, I often wait to see where it goes before putting money down on it. The boy is into LEGOs, video games, Calvin and Hobbes, and Tae Kwon Do. The girl just started really reading a month or so ago and is devouring Elephant and Piggie books. She draws, loves Phineas and Ferb, and Irish Step Dance. Neither are in the competitions for their "sports." They do it for themselves not to compare themselves with others. We're out and about with activities with other homeschoolers weekly. When we do have time at home it's to clean house, but we also play games together sometimes. The kids get lots of technology time (computer, Wii, TV) because they ask for it.
I'm caught in the comparison trap of seeing what others are doing and feeling like I'm not doing enough. How bad is it if both the parents and the kids in our family prefer to experience new things via TV and computer versus in person? How much energy am I supposed to put into strewing? Why isn't living and learning enough?
I appreciate your thoughts. Thanks!
Karen
Sandra Dodd
-=- Unschooling is very different from 'not doing any bookwork' and 'just living and learning'. An essential ingredient in unschooling is helping children explore the world in the ways that they themselves are drawn to. -=-
I don't think it's "very different." I think it is those things and more.
-=- I tell them that they are their own best teachers but I am here to help. -=-
Why make them think they need teachers, or that they are good teachers?
If the find themselves not teaching themselves, then they have failed, in your model.
http://sandradodd.com/teaching
-=-When they express interest in something, I often wait to see where it goes before putting money down on it. -=-
There are maybe a hundred things between waiting and "putting money down."
-=-The kids get lots of technology time (computer, Wii, TV) because they ask for it.-=-
"Technology time" is a new term for me. I don't like it. At the library if they use an online search to find a book, is that "technology time"? When you're home cleaning (if you're making them clean, as it seems), is the one using the vacuum accruing "technology time"?
-=-How bad is it if both the parents and the kids in our family prefer to experience new things via TV and computer versus in person?-=-
It depends what the thing is. If you're looking at remote video feed of your front yard, that's too much. If you're saving money to go to Africa rather than watching video about Africa, that's not sensible (unless you live really near to Africa anyway, I guess).
-=-How much energy am I supposed to put into strewing? -=-
Enough that you don't even think about asking that question.
Are you trying to get someone's permission to do less? To feel fine about not doing more? For us to tell you "that's enough"? We're not your kids. We don't know how much your kids want.
-=-Why isn't living and learning enough?-=-
In some families it is, because they're living a rich life and learning all the time.
In some families it's not, because they're trying to get by with as little effort and expense and time with their kids as they can, and still have other people praise them.
There's a serious problem with wanting affirmation from other adults rather than gauging by the health of the relationships in your family.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't think it's "very different." I think it is those things and more.
-=- I tell them that they are their own best teachers but I am here to help. -=-
Why make them think they need teachers, or that they are good teachers?
If the find themselves not teaching themselves, then they have failed, in your model.
http://sandradodd.com/teaching
-=-When they express interest in something, I often wait to see where it goes before putting money down on it. -=-
There are maybe a hundred things between waiting and "putting money down."
-=-The kids get lots of technology time (computer, Wii, TV) because they ask for it.-=-
"Technology time" is a new term for me. I don't like it. At the library if they use an online search to find a book, is that "technology time"? When you're home cleaning (if you're making them clean, as it seems), is the one using the vacuum accruing "technology time"?
-=-How bad is it if both the parents and the kids in our family prefer to experience new things via TV and computer versus in person?-=-
It depends what the thing is. If you're looking at remote video feed of your front yard, that's too much. If you're saving money to go to Africa rather than watching video about Africa, that's not sensible (unless you live really near to Africa anyway, I guess).
-=-How much energy am I supposed to put into strewing? -=-
Enough that you don't even think about asking that question.
Are you trying to get someone's permission to do less? To feel fine about not doing more? For us to tell you "that's enough"? We're not your kids. We don't know how much your kids want.
-=-Why isn't living and learning enough?-=-
In some families it is, because they're living a rich life and learning all the time.
In some families it's not, because they're trying to get by with as little effort and expense and time with their kids as they can, and still have other people praise them.
There's a serious problem with wanting affirmation from other adults rather than gauging by the health of the relationships in your family.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
dezignarob
=== AND how can I help my daughter "Unschool" but motivate her? ===
Motivate her to do....what?
Think about what "motivated" looks like to you. I suspect you have an expectation lurking there. An expectation is a disappointment waiting to happen. Children feel them too, even when they are unstated. It's worth really examining your expectations. Often they are fears in disguise.
I'm sorry that you are feeling unsupported in the UK. It may just be a local to you phenomenon. You might have to search a bit more, drive a bit further.
Sandra is in the UK right now staying with various unschoolers, and I believe speaking to some small groups. I know there is a an awesome camp out type annual event too. Perhaps some of the locals will contact you off list.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
Motivate her to do....what?
Think about what "motivated" looks like to you. I suspect you have an expectation lurking there. An expectation is a disappointment waiting to happen. Children feel them too, even when they are unstated. It's worth really examining your expectations. Often they are fears in disguise.
I'm sorry that you are feeling unsupported in the UK. It may just be a local to you phenomenon. You might have to search a bit more, drive a bit further.
Sandra is in the UK right now staying with various unschoolers, and I believe speaking to some small groups. I know there is a an awesome camp out type annual event too. Perhaps some of the locals will contact you off list.
Robyn L. Coburn
www.iggyjingles.blogspot.com
dezignarob
=== I know my weakness has been to go about doing things I want to do and sometimes dragging them along. This year I've been better about putting aside the time I want to spend on the computer answering e-mail, for instance, and pay attention to them. And even though I like to cook dinner alone while watching TV, when my daughter asked to cook with me, I said yes. I worry that I don't pay attention to them enough though. I don't really "strew" as I imagine that word to mean. ====
There was a time when my little daughter told me I loved my computer more than her. I was motivated to take steps to change my usage - different timing, removing myself from a lot of lists for a long while, organizing my email into important vs not important via the senders, blocking out time when she was busy or sleeping. It got better for us.
What do you imagine "strew" to mean? The practice is explained pretty well on Sandra's site. http://sandradodd.com/strew/sandra
One of the big parts of it is not having a pre-conceived expectation of what your child's reaction will be, not being attached to an outcome.
If you have to drag them along, it may be that they don't want to go.
One of the things that has been valuable for me is to use a stopwatch or timer and actually time how long I spend doing different things. Soooo often, I misjudge how long (or how short) I spend doing activities. You might try keeping a log for a brief period - just long enough to see patterns - say a week. You might discover useful information. I know I did.
I have started taking a walk every day. It takes about 40 minutes to go around two long blocks. I need to do something to raise my fitness level. Often I will go while the laundry is in the dryer. I don't go at the same time every day, but I go when Jayn is either very engaged on her computer, skype or WoW, or when she is sleeping. You can find time for personal stuff if you are flexible.
Technology can help. I DVR most of our tv shows. In addition to skipping ads, we love watching some things together. I use a crock pot sometimes to set and forget meals, or have a big stew going over a whole weekend. (Then they are tired of stew for a while!) I read books on my iPhone as I do my daily walk (so awesome! This really helps me to get onto my walk.)
If staying up later for a few moments alone, try getting up earlier. It will not be long before your kids are going to sleepovers. James and I hardly knew what to do with ourselves the first couple of times Jayn went to sleepovers at her friends' homes. But we worked out something.
Well - off to my walk now. Jayn is taking a nap.
There was a time when my little daughter told me I loved my computer more than her. I was motivated to take steps to change my usage - different timing, removing myself from a lot of lists for a long while, organizing my email into important vs not important via the senders, blocking out time when she was busy or sleeping. It got better for us.
What do you imagine "strew" to mean? The practice is explained pretty well on Sandra's site. http://sandradodd.com/strew/sandra
One of the big parts of it is not having a pre-conceived expectation of what your child's reaction will be, not being attached to an outcome.
If you have to drag them along, it may be that they don't want to go.
One of the things that has been valuable for me is to use a stopwatch or timer and actually time how long I spend doing different things. Soooo often, I misjudge how long (or how short) I spend doing activities. You might try keeping a log for a brief period - just long enough to see patterns - say a week. You might discover useful information. I know I did.
I have started taking a walk every day. It takes about 40 minutes to go around two long blocks. I need to do something to raise my fitness level. Often I will go while the laundry is in the dryer. I don't go at the same time every day, but I go when Jayn is either very engaged on her computer, skype or WoW, or when she is sleeping. You can find time for personal stuff if you are flexible.
Technology can help. I DVR most of our tv shows. In addition to skipping ads, we love watching some things together. I use a crock pot sometimes to set and forget meals, or have a big stew going over a whole weekend. (Then they are tired of stew for a while!) I read books on my iPhone as I do my daily walk (so awesome! This really helps me to get onto my walk.)
If staying up later for a few moments alone, try getting up earlier. It will not be long before your kids are going to sleepovers. James and I hardly knew what to do with ourselves the first couple of times Jayn went to sleepovers at her friends' homes. But we worked out something.
Well - off to my walk now. Jayn is taking a nap.
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Sandra is in the UK right now staying with various unschoolers, and I believe speaking to some small groups. I know there is a an awesome camp out type annual event too. Perhaps some of the locals will contact you off list.-=-
I'm in France today, and there is a three-day campout with French families early next week.
July 14-15, though, there is an event in Ashford, Surrey, at a school right near the train station in Surrey. I'm speaking all day the second day.
http://www.lttl.org.uk/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra is in the UK right now staying with various unschoolers, and I believe speaking to some small groups. I know there is a an awesome camp out type annual event too. Perhaps some of the locals will contact you off list.-=-
I'm in France today, and there is a three-day campout with French families early next week.
July 14-15, though, there is an event in Ashford, Surrey, at a school right near the train station in Surrey. I'm speaking all day the second day.
http://www.lttl.org.uk/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I worry that I don't pay attention to them enough though. -=-
There is a graph and explanation here of exactly how much time to spend with or on your children at various ages:
http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
There is a graph and explanation here of exactly how much time to spend with or on your children at various ages:
http://sandradodd.com/howto/precisely
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
>>>>>I worry that I don't pay attention to them enough though.<<<<<I would trust that inner voice and pay attention to them more. The strewing will naturally follow your observations and interactions with your children.
>>>>>I tell them that they are their own best teachers but I am here to help.<<<<<I feel like that is too much pressure on them. If I was learning to knit, and someone handed me a ball of yarn and some needles and said I'm here to help, but you are your best teacher, I would get pretty stressed. If instead, they gave me some links to Youtube videos I could watch, maybe some knitting books, pictures of cool knitted items or the knitted items themselves, wonderful yarn, various sized needles...you see where I'm going. Maybe that person would sit beside me and knit, without making a lesson of it. "Here's what I do." That's all strewing (in my mind). It is also acting in partnership with your children to help them attain their goals and find new interests and strengths. Don't make them responsible for their learning. Partner with them in their learning.
>>>>>When they express interest in something, I often wait to see where it goes before putting money down on it.<<<<<If I had to prove I was interested in something before someone was willing to invest in that interest, I might miss out on a whole lot of the world. There are lots of ways to explore interests that don't include monetary investments. Waiting might only extinguish a light that could have led to some cool learning moment. You were asking about strewing. This is where strewing can be so much fun. Maybe your son is interested in Lego. Maybe he likes to build with the wee bits (mine does). Maybe you find a cool video on building with nano technology and you show it to him when he is available and interested. Maybe he becomes interested in nano robots. Maybe the next time you are at the library you check out a book about the robots. Maybe he becomes interested in making his own robot. Maybe none of this happens. But in waiting you will never know, and neither will they.
>>>>I'm caught in the comparison trap of seeing what others are doing and feeling like I'm not doing enough.<<<<If you look at your days and think that maybe you aren't doing enough, then do more. If it feels like too much, then slow down. Look at your days and your family, not what others are doing.
>>>>How bad is it if both the parents and the kids in our family prefer to experience new things via TV and computer versus in person?<<<<I wonder why you use the word "bad?" Do you really think it is bad? If you do, then why? What can you change? Sometimes we do choose to do less than we could be doing because we are tired or unmotivated or kind of stuck. Pushing ourselves a bit further in these instances usually feels pretty good - like an adventure! If you don't think it's bad then what are you looking for from this group? That would be something worth investigating personally too.
>>>>How much energy am I supposed to put into strewing? Why isn't living and learning enough?<<<<This question assumes that strewing is something separate from living and learning. I don't believe that is true. Just tonight, my husband came into the kitchen, before he went out to the bbq, and casually said to me, "I didn't know that the pyriform shape of eggs helps to prevent them from rolling off the edges of cliffs." After a brief moment, I knew he was talking about something he had just read this beautiful egg book I propped up in the bathroom. It has been there for weeks. I change the pages of it when I get tired of looking at the pictures. I rarely read the words in this book. I like the natural decorations on the eggs. My son came into the kitchen as we were talking. He asked what we were talking about. We told him. Then we took an egg out of the refrigerator and rolled it around on the counter and watched it's motion. We all had a deeper respect for the shape of eggs. Then we all went on with what we had been doing before. We came together over this book for one very nice moment in our day. One thoughtfully placed book can lead to a richer living and learning experience. That is my understanding of and experience with strewing.
Sandra Dodd
http://sandradodd.com/strew/strew
I added Karen's story about the eggs, and there was something there already, awaiting another addition. :-)
I'm off with Claire Darbaud and her children to a medieval town across Lake Geneva from here, called Yvoire. I'll take pictures. :-)
Sandra
I added Karen's story about the eggs, and there was something there already, awaiting another addition. :-)
I'm off with Claire Darbaud and her children to a medieval town across Lake Geneva from here, called Yvoire. I'll take pictures. :-)
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 6, 2012, at 9:51 PM, Karen wrote:
Strewing is something different, something separate from their interests. Sandra coined the term as it applies to unschooling. And it's not a good one to use to apply to supporting their interests and explorations. The ordinary use of the word strewing suggests disconnection. And moms should not be disconnected from their kids when they're supporting them in exploring.
Strewing even in its common use is not done to or with someone. It's done to the environment. And that's what strewing is in unschooling. It's leaving interesting things out where people might stumble across them. They may pick them up for a moment or an hour or ignore them entirely. Periodically they're cleared away. Periodically new things are strewn.
Supporting requires being connected and interacting with them. Being aware of what they're doing with their passions enough to be their support and ask interested questions and understand what they're talking about when they share.
There are several parts to creating a rich, vibrant atmosphere for learning:
1) Support their interests, as much as *they* need. Which involves getting them the stuff they want and need. Share what you know. Run related ideas through their lives. Listen to them talk about their interests. Be interested in their interests or at least appreciative of their passion. *Not* taking over their interest ;-)
2) Connect with them outside of their interests. Do things together. Have conversations. Tell them stories of their childhoods and yours. Go through old photo albums. Invite them to do household tasks with you, go shopping.
3) Take them places. Introduce them to new things. It doesn't need to be big deals. Grocery shop in new grocery stores. Drop into thrift stores and antique stores. Farmer's markets.
4) Be curious yourself. See the world through your kids' eyes. Wonder about things.
5) Strew. Sprinkle their environment with things to stumble across. (Bathrooms are particularly good for this.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> " That's all strewing (in my mind).What you described is supporting their interests.
Strewing is something different, something separate from their interests. Sandra coined the term as it applies to unschooling. And it's not a good one to use to apply to supporting their interests and explorations. The ordinary use of the word strewing suggests disconnection. And moms should not be disconnected from their kids when they're supporting them in exploring.
Strewing even in its common use is not done to or with someone. It's done to the environment. And that's what strewing is in unschooling. It's leaving interesting things out where people might stumble across them. They may pick them up for a moment or an hour or ignore them entirely. Periodically they're cleared away. Periodically new things are strewn.
Supporting requires being connected and interacting with them. Being aware of what they're doing with their passions enough to be their support and ask interested questions and understand what they're talking about when they share.
There are several parts to creating a rich, vibrant atmosphere for learning:
1) Support their interests, as much as *they* need. Which involves getting them the stuff they want and need. Share what you know. Run related ideas through their lives. Listen to them talk about their interests. Be interested in their interests or at least appreciative of their passion. *Not* taking over their interest ;-)
2) Connect with them outside of their interests. Do things together. Have conversations. Tell them stories of their childhoods and yours. Go through old photo albums. Invite them to do household tasks with you, go shopping.
3) Take them places. Introduce them to new things. It doesn't need to be big deals. Grocery shop in new grocery stores. Drop into thrift stores and antique stores. Farmer's markets.
4) Be curious yourself. See the world through your kids' eyes. Wonder about things.
5) Strew. Sprinkle their environment with things to stumble across. (Bathrooms are particularly good for this.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
> Why isn't living and learning enough?I think when most people first hear of kids learning from life, they're picturing the life schooled kids live outside of school and homework. And mostly that life is kids disconnected from their parents as they recover from the pressures of school by watching TV (the less learningful the better for kids who feel stupid in school), playing with friends, being dragged to the grocery store, playing video games, surfing the internet, playing sports.
It's hard for people to imagine learning anything profound living that kind of life.
Kids can't not learn. But they can't learn as much when their focus is on recovering from school and avoiding anything that reminds them of school, and when their parents aren't engaged with them.
An unschooling environment and life only look on the surface like kids recovering from school. Sure they're pursuing their interests, but they aren't avoiding anything. And, more importantly, their parents are fully engaged with them, supporting their explorations and enriching their lives with new and interesting things.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think when most people first hear of kids learning from life, they're picturing the life schooled kids live outside of school and homework. And mostly that life is kids disconnected from their parents as they recover from the pressures of school by watching TV (the less learningful the better for kids who feel stupid in school), playing with friends, being dragged to the grocery store, playing video games, surfing the internet, playing sports.
-=-It's hard for people to imagine learning anything profound living that kind of life-=-
This same idea and dichotomy has come up here today and last night. I'm visiting a family in France. The mom loves the idea of unschooling, but the dad, who is from Madagascar, said when he was growing up, kids were around adults and did what the adults said, and then the rest of the time they could run and play and do whatever they wanted to.
Neither of those scenarios is unschooling. Neither being in a place where adults make all the decisions and children obey unhesitatingly, nor being *away* from the adults, only with other kids, is the sort of "just live" unschooling needs.
Adults need to learn to be with children and to treat them as people. Not as the bosses, either--not to let them do anything on earth they want. Nor to play with them as though they're all children all the time. I think those are some of the ways new unschoolers get confused. Maybe they're trying to recreate one of the scenes my Malagasy host has. All together, someone is in charge. Or wildly playing without regard to responsibility or the adult world.
Neither is right or good.
It's a whole different kind of "together" and "living."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-It's hard for people to imagine learning anything profound living that kind of life-=-
This same idea and dichotomy has come up here today and last night. I'm visiting a family in France. The mom loves the idea of unschooling, but the dad, who is from Madagascar, said when he was growing up, kids were around adults and did what the adults said, and then the rest of the time they could run and play and do whatever they wanted to.
Neither of those scenarios is unschooling. Neither being in a place where adults make all the decisions and children obey unhesitatingly, nor being *away* from the adults, only with other kids, is the sort of "just live" unschooling needs.
Adults need to learn to be with children and to treat them as people. Not as the bosses, either--not to let them do anything on earth they want. Nor to play with them as though they're all children all the time. I think those are some of the ways new unschoolers get confused. Maybe they're trying to recreate one of the scenes my Malagasy host has. All together, someone is in charge. Or wildly playing without regard to responsibility or the adult world.
Neither is right or good.
It's a whole different kind of "together" and "living."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
joanne.lopers
I strewed a box of games and puzzles at our park day. Lots of them got played with that my kids would not play with on their own but did with friends.
I have a big bag of balls, frizbees, jump ropes, bubbles,chalk, etc. that I sometimes bring too. Someone else brings hola hoops and leaves them out.
My next project is putting together a craft bin to leave out at the park days. It seems when they see how other kids use things they sometimes get inspired.
I put pictres on walls too. In the bathroom or on the fridge. Or objects in their drawers.
Joanne
I have a big bag of balls, frizbees, jump ropes, bubbles,chalk, etc. that I sometimes bring too. Someone else brings hola hoops and leaves them out.
My next project is putting together a craft bin to leave out at the park days. It seems when they see how other kids use things they sometimes get inspired.
I put pictres on walls too. In the bathroom or on the fridge. Or objects in their drawers.
Joanne
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 6, 2012, at 9:51 PM, Karen wrote:
>
> > " That's all strewing (in my mind).
>
> What you described is supporting their interests.
>
> Strewing is something different, something separate from their interests. Sandra coined the term as it applies to unschooling. And it's not a good one to use to apply to supporting their interests and explorations. The ordinary use of the word strewing suggests disconnection. And moms should not be disconnected from their kids when they're supporting them in exploring.
>
> Strewing even in its common use is not done to or with someone. It's done to the environment. And that's what strewing is in unschooling. It's leaving interesting things out where people might stumble across them. They may pick them up for a moment or an hour or ignore them entirely. Periodically they're cleared away. Periodically new things are strewn.
>
> Supporting requires being connected and interacting with them. Being aware of what they're doing with their passions enough to be their support and ask interested questions and understand what they're talking about when they share.
>
> There are several parts to creating a rich, vibrant atmosphere for learning:
>
> 1) Support their interests, as much as *they* need. Which involves getting them the stuff they want and need. Share what you know. Run related ideas through their lives. Listen to them talk about their interests. Be interested in their interests or at least appreciative of their passion. *Not* taking over their interest ;-)
>
> 2) Connect with them outside of their interests. Do things together. Have conversations. Tell them stories of their childhoods and yours. Go through old photo albums. Invite them to do household tasks with you, go shopping.
>
> 3) Take them places. Introduce them to new things. It doesn't need to be big deals. Grocery shop in new grocery stores. Drop into thrift stores and antique stores. Farmer's markets.
>
> 4) Be curious yourself. See the world through your kids' eyes. Wonder about things.
>
> 5) Strew. Sprinkle their environment with things to stumble across. (Bathrooms are particularly good for this.)
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I strewed a box of games and puzzles at our park day. -=-
I think you took games and puzzles to the park day. Maybe you even put them out on tables. :-)
Does it help to say "I strewed" in this case?
I know I'm being picky. It's because I want people to use plain, regular, real English whenever they can.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think you took games and puzzles to the park day. Maybe you even put them out on tables. :-)
Does it help to say "I strewed" in this case?
I know I'm being picky. It's because I want people to use plain, regular, real English whenever they can.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
I think she was using the word strewing to make the point that these were
examples of strewing as opposed to supporting an interest, not because
she'd normally speak that way.
-pam
examples of strewing as opposed to supporting an interest, not because
she'd normally speak that way.
-pam
On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> -=-I strewed a box of games and puzzles at our park day. -=-
>
> I think you took games and puzzles to the park day. Maybe you even put
> them out on tables. :-)
>
> Does it help to say "I strewed" in this case?
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
christinebgilbert
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>I really liked this Sandra. The way that it clicked for me (as someone who relatively new) was to remember that I already unschool myself -- so to speak. I'm learning all the time. That was one of the things I talked to my husband about when we first discuss it, because he couldn't begin to understand why I thought this was a good idea. I asked him to think of everything he learned since college. How did he learn it? Via classes? Books? Sometimes. Mostly though it was through doing, researching, trying things out -- living his life. For kids only difference is that they need parents support in order to do the same things we do every day and take for granted. It's how human beings (big or little) learn when school doesn't get in the way.
> Adults need to learn to be with children and to treat them as people. Not as the bosses, either--not to let them do anything on earth they want. Nor to play with them as though they're all children all the time. I think those are some of the ways new unschoolers get confused. Maybe they're trying to recreate one of the scenes my Malagasy host has. All together, someone is in charge. Or wildly playing without regard to responsibility or the adult world.
>
> Neither is right or good.
> It's a whole different kind of "together" and "living."
>
> Sandra
in4mkaren
We've had a busy weekend and I can finally get back to reading your replies. Thanks so much! It's so hard to capture the essence of a family in a few short paragraphs. I misrepresented us at points, which resulted in misunderstandings and people assuming things. I'm not going to correct all those, but I do want to thank you for your gentle answers. It's hard to lay open your sore spots to other people.
Writing out my doubts instead of keeping them inside provided my first insight. I was giving into the expectation that I had to do everything I could be doing for my children right now - perfectionism. The truth is life is a journey. I spent a good number of my kids' younger years becoming more emotionally healthy so I could respond gently and live respectfully with my children. Now that seems easier, I've moved onto being more available and delighting in being with them.
I read the strewing article. Thanks! I do strew some, but usually in a way related to some member of the family's interests. I put my MIL's piano in our dining room this year, for instance, because my daughter wanted lessons. Now my son has taught himself nine songs, practices on his own almost daily, and is teaching his sister.
My image of strewing was much more contrived and disconnected from living and learning. Unfortunately, *I* am the one in the family still recovering from school and loathing to do anything like school (I was trained as a teacher). My image of strewing set that loathing off. I enjoy pursuing our interests and understand how to do that better, but now I see that strewing can be a natural outcome of doing that. I could be doing a lot more strewing, plotting, taking the kids places, but then I'd be more stressed, which makes it hard to live respectfully, be available, and delight in them.
I'm over the TV question at least for now. I asked myself why we like to watch TV. For me partly, it's because the view from the camera is better than in person. Plus like Sandra said, we don't have the money to go to Africa. Or Neptune.
I think the differences between the way I learn and the way my kids learn also contributed to my doubts. I love information. I usually read the entire National Geographic, science magazines, The Week within the first few days of receiving them, mostly in the bathroom. I slowly get through books when I can, being careful about when I pick up fiction because I know I will "neglect" my family for a while until it's done. And I'd rather be with my family. My kids, ages 10 and 7, show more interest in people, playing games, strategy, money, going swimming, and fiction, than they do in information. For instance, my daughter is in bumble bee crazy right now- wanting to paint her room yellow and black, wanting to buy bumble bee ornaments and toys - but she passes on any books that are about real bees.
My kids don't ask "what" or "why" like I do, but mostly ask "how." I offer lots of why's but they've never been that kid who asks Why? like a broken record. They also rarely are interested in "daisy chain" learning. That's my term for when a kid likes horses, then plays pretend with horses, then you go to the library and check out all the books about horses, then watch a documentary about horses, then visit a stable, etc... In that way they are actually like my style of learning, I don't really like to get too deeply into anything but want a little about a lot of different things.
My head says that they are young kids, doing totally appropriate kid things, and that their interest in what and why will pick up when and if it's the right time for them. In the meantime we have a great time together, and they find all kinds of fantastic things to do with their bodies. My son is proud of making noises with his armpits and my daughter rejoices that she taught herself to snap, whistle, and blow bubble gum bubbles before her big brother did.
My heart occasionally overcomes my head with doubts that maybe the reason my kids don't daisy chain and aren't interested in what and why are because I'm doing it all wrong. Other people's kids are interested in what and why.
So has anybody else experienced this, when kids are more about "how" and less interested in "what's" and "why's"? Is it developmental, meaning they'll move on to the other questions when they get older? Or is it a personality thing? Do I need to concern myself with compensating by sprinkling their environment with more "what" and "why" opportunities? Or just let it be and watch what happens?
Thanks for your time!
Karen
Writing out my doubts instead of keeping them inside provided my first insight. I was giving into the expectation that I had to do everything I could be doing for my children right now - perfectionism. The truth is life is a journey. I spent a good number of my kids' younger years becoming more emotionally healthy so I could respond gently and live respectfully with my children. Now that seems easier, I've moved onto being more available and delighting in being with them.
I read the strewing article. Thanks! I do strew some, but usually in a way related to some member of the family's interests. I put my MIL's piano in our dining room this year, for instance, because my daughter wanted lessons. Now my son has taught himself nine songs, practices on his own almost daily, and is teaching his sister.
My image of strewing was much more contrived and disconnected from living and learning. Unfortunately, *I* am the one in the family still recovering from school and loathing to do anything like school (I was trained as a teacher). My image of strewing set that loathing off. I enjoy pursuing our interests and understand how to do that better, but now I see that strewing can be a natural outcome of doing that. I could be doing a lot more strewing, plotting, taking the kids places, but then I'd be more stressed, which makes it hard to live respectfully, be available, and delight in them.
>>>>>Quote: If I was learning to knit, and someone handed me a ball of yarn and some needles and said I'm here to help, but you are your best teacher, I would get pretty stressed. If instead, they gave me some links to Youtube videos I could watch, maybe some knitting books, pictures of cool knitted items or the knitted items themselves, wonderful yarn, various sized needles...you see where I'm going. Maybe that person would sit beside me and knit, without making a lesson of it. "Here's what I do." <<<<<<This is exactly how I feel about unschooling, like someone just sat me down with a ball of yarn and needles, told me to do knit, and gave me no help. I know that feeling is not unique to me. I like being able to measure, to know I'm getting a recipe right, so when I use the only measure I am able to grasp - what I think other people are doing with their kids and the effort they're putting into it - I get worried because we don't do as much. It's a poor measure though, for one thing, it's impossible to do as much as the conglomerate efforts of dozens of families.
I'm over the TV question at least for now. I asked myself why we like to watch TV. For me partly, it's because the view from the camera is better than in person. Plus like Sandra said, we don't have the money to go to Africa. Or Neptune.
I think the differences between the way I learn and the way my kids learn also contributed to my doubts. I love information. I usually read the entire National Geographic, science magazines, The Week within the first few days of receiving them, mostly in the bathroom. I slowly get through books when I can, being careful about when I pick up fiction because I know I will "neglect" my family for a while until it's done. And I'd rather be with my family. My kids, ages 10 and 7, show more interest in people, playing games, strategy, money, going swimming, and fiction, than they do in information. For instance, my daughter is in bumble bee crazy right now- wanting to paint her room yellow and black, wanting to buy bumble bee ornaments and toys - but she passes on any books that are about real bees.
My kids don't ask "what" or "why" like I do, but mostly ask "how." I offer lots of why's but they've never been that kid who asks Why? like a broken record. They also rarely are interested in "daisy chain" learning. That's my term for when a kid likes horses, then plays pretend with horses, then you go to the library and check out all the books about horses, then watch a documentary about horses, then visit a stable, etc... In that way they are actually like my style of learning, I don't really like to get too deeply into anything but want a little about a lot of different things.
My head says that they are young kids, doing totally appropriate kid things, and that their interest in what and why will pick up when and if it's the right time for them. In the meantime we have a great time together, and they find all kinds of fantastic things to do with their bodies. My son is proud of making noises with his armpits and my daughter rejoices that she taught herself to snap, whistle, and blow bubble gum bubbles before her big brother did.
My heart occasionally overcomes my head with doubts that maybe the reason my kids don't daisy chain and aren't interested in what and why are because I'm doing it all wrong. Other people's kids are interested in what and why.
So has anybody else experienced this, when kids are more about "how" and less interested in "what's" and "why's"? Is it developmental, meaning they'll move on to the other questions when they get older? Or is it a personality thing? Do I need to concern myself with compensating by sprinkling their environment with more "what" and "why" opportunities? Or just let it be and watch what happens?
Thanks for your time!
Karen
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:12 AM, in4mkaren wrote:
My daughter didn't tend to ask how OR what and why. Mostly she absorbed and collected. She's a lot like me. I often need loads of examples so that I can see patterns before I can ask questions.
Do you see how off that all sounds?
What and why are more philosophical questions. It's about the foundation of things.
How is more mechanical. It's about how things work.
They're different but equally valuable approaches to life.
I used to say my need to take ideas apart was because I have a degree in engineering. But that's all wrong! I have a degree in engineering because I like pulling things apart. I was born thinking like an engineer. I liked the how questions. It would have irritated and bored me if people had seen my need to know how as not as good as knowing why and what.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Other people's kids are interested in what and why.Or are you only noticing kids who have what you see as a lack in your own kids?
My daughter didn't tend to ask how OR what and why. Mostly she absorbed and collected. She's a lot like me. I often need loads of examples so that I can see patterns before I can ask questions.
> Is it developmental, meaning they'll move on to the other questionsShould they sprinkle your life with more "how" to get you asking the right questions? Obviously someone let you grow up without correcting that defect if you aren't asking "how" questions by now.
> when they get older? Or is it a personality thing? Do I need to concern
> myself with compensating by sprinkling their environment with more
> "what" and "why" opportunities? Or just let it be and watch what happens?
Do you see how off that all sounds?
What and why are more philosophical questions. It's about the foundation of things.
How is more mechanical. It's about how things work.
They're different but equally valuable approaches to life.
I used to say my need to take ideas apart was because I have a degree in engineering. But that's all wrong! I have a degree in engineering because I like pulling things apart. I was born thinking like an engineer. I liked the how questions. It would have irritated and bored me if people had seen my need to know how as not as good as knowing why and what.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"in4mkaren" <kasmail@...> wrote:
How do you learn skills? You wrote in another part of your post that you like information - so you can read Sandra's site and Joyce's and Pam L's book for that - but learning a skill generally involves more than just stuffing your head with information. Unschooling takes some information, but it also uses some skills - so what's the process by which you learn skills? For me, I tend to start out with a big rush of competence as I catch on quickly and then hit what I call my "frustration plateau" where I know Just enough to get me into trouble and make real mistakes. At that point, I learn from my mistakes, but its a much slower, more frustrating part of the learning process. Knowing how that works for me is really helpful when I'm gritting my teeth thinking "why is this so freaking hard all of a sudden, I Thought I was Getting It!" oh, its the frustration plateau... time to slow down and pay more attention so I can use the mistakes I make to good advantage.
How ever you learn, it helps to remember that learning something complex frequently takes time and experience.
One of the advantages of unschooling is it gives kids more time to stock up on lots and lots of little experiences in a variety of contexts.
Do they seem like they need all that much more stuff in their lives? If they seem pretty happy, then maybe the "work" you need to do now involves relaxing into the swirl of natural learning and building up confidence in natural learning. That confidence will be a partial antidote to the baggage from your years of teaching.
This is the kind of thing that makes unschooling so cool! Learning happens in so many ways! And kids are Good at learning, when they haven't had that schooled out of them. It can be exciting to watch the way kids go about things - and exciting all over again to find out, weeks or months later - that they were learning even more than you realized about things you didn't even think of.
Sandra's site is chock full of fantastic examples of how learning spiderwebs and swirls and collages, and since you like information, I'll throw some links at you. This is a good place to start:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
This is a fantastic "day in the life" snapshot of learning:
http://sandradodd.com/puddle
another "day in the life" this one is great because of all the back-tracking and diversions - a really nice picture of how learning isn't linear or obvious:
http://sandradodd.com/day/presidents
---Meredith
>> My kids don't ask "what" or "why" like I do, but mostly ask "how."My daughter sometimes asks "what" but more commonly goes right to explaining to me Me how something works. There's one theory of learning and the mind that people "construct" an internal model of the world - and my daughter seems to do that. She only asks "why" about other people's expectations - most recently "why do some people think learning only happens at school?"
>>> This is exactly how I feel about unschooling, like someone just sat me down with a ball of yarn and needles, told me to do knit, and gave me no help.*****************
How do you learn skills? You wrote in another part of your post that you like information - so you can read Sandra's site and Joyce's and Pam L's book for that - but learning a skill generally involves more than just stuffing your head with information. Unschooling takes some information, but it also uses some skills - so what's the process by which you learn skills? For me, I tend to start out with a big rush of competence as I catch on quickly and then hit what I call my "frustration plateau" where I know Just enough to get me into trouble and make real mistakes. At that point, I learn from my mistakes, but its a much slower, more frustrating part of the learning process. Knowing how that works for me is really helpful when I'm gritting my teeth thinking "why is this so freaking hard all of a sudden, I Thought I was Getting It!" oh, its the frustration plateau... time to slow down and pay more attention so I can use the mistakes I make to good advantage.
How ever you learn, it helps to remember that learning something complex frequently takes time and experience.
One of the advantages of unschooling is it gives kids more time to stock up on lots and lots of little experiences in a variety of contexts.
>I could be doing a lot more strewing, plotting, taking the kids places, but then I'd be more stressed, which makes it hard to live respectfully, be available, and delight in them.*****************
Do they seem like they need all that much more stuff in their lives? If they seem pretty happy, then maybe the "work" you need to do now involves relaxing into the swirl of natural learning and building up confidence in natural learning. That confidence will be a partial antidote to the baggage from your years of teaching.
>>My kids, ages 10 and 7, show more interest in people, playing games, strategy, money, going swimming, and fiction, than they do in information.***************
This is the kind of thing that makes unschooling so cool! Learning happens in so many ways! And kids are Good at learning, when they haven't had that schooled out of them. It can be exciting to watch the way kids go about things - and exciting all over again to find out, weeks or months later - that they were learning even more than you realized about things you didn't even think of.
>>They also rarely are interested in "daisy chain" learning.Think about that idea of constructing and internal model when you worry about daisy chains. How would you build a physical model of.... your neighborhood or town? Would you pick a point and go in a straight line, building out from that, and then pick another point? That might be one strategy, but you might, instead, lay out the overall shape of the town and then fill in the points of interest first. Or you might map out the streets in relation to some big feature... a rail line or river or ocean. Or you might start with the topography... or the history of the place... or not build a realistic model at all but instead create a collage, or profiles of intersting residents. You can think about learning along those lines - how someone constructs an understanding of something isn't necessarily linear - and that's a Good Thing.
Sandra's site is chock full of fantastic examples of how learning spiderwebs and swirls and collages, and since you like information, I'll throw some links at you. This is a good place to start:
http://sandradodd.com/connections/
This is a fantastic "day in the life" snapshot of learning:
http://sandradodd.com/puddle
another "day in the life" this one is great because of all the back-tracking and diversions - a really nice picture of how learning isn't linear or obvious:
http://sandradodd.com/day/presidents
---Meredith
in4mkaren
Soo good, Joyce! Thanks! Maybe I am sensitive to seeing in others what I don't see in us. I do notice that my family is different from a lot of the unschooling stories I hear and the differences bother me. It's also really easy to take the advice on this list and turn it into required things I should be doing, overburdening myself. Living, learning, relating, enjoying each other all seem way more important to me right now than strewing.
I'm wired to want to do things well and the right way. In unschooling there is no one right way, though I agree there are wrong ways. The ambiguity is difficult for me. I like what we're doing as a family. I think the others like what we're doing as a family, but I'm not sure if that's a good enough.
So what are good ways to evaluate whether you're in a healthy place as a family with unschooling?
I'm wired to want to do things well and the right way. In unschooling there is no one right way, though I agree there are wrong ways. The ambiguity is difficult for me. I like what we're doing as a family. I think the others like what we're doing as a family, but I'm not sure if that's a good enough.
So what are good ways to evaluate whether you're in a healthy place as a family with unschooling?
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jun 11, 2012, at 9:12 AM, in4mkaren wrote:
>
> > Other people's kids are interested in what and why.
>
> Or are you only noticing kids who have what you see as a lack in your own kids?
>
> My daughter didn't tend to ask how OR what and why. Mostly she absorbed and collected. She's a lot like me. I often need loads of examples so that I can see patterns before I can ask questions.
>
> > Is it developmental, meaning they'll move on to the other questions
> > when they get older? Or is it a personality thing? Do I need to concern
> > myself with compensating by sprinkling their environment with more
> > "what" and "why" opportunities? Or just let it be and watch what happens?
>
> Should they sprinkle your life with more "how" to get you asking the right questions? Obviously someone let you grow up without correcting that defect if you aren't asking "how" questions by now.
>
> Do you see how off that all sounds?
>
> What and why are more philosophical questions. It's about the foundation of things.
>
> How is more mechanical. It's about how things work.
>
> They're different but equally valuable approaches to life.
>
> I used to say my need to take ideas apart was because I have a degree in engineering. But that's all wrong! I have a degree in engineering because I like pulling things apart. I was born thinking like an engineer. I liked the how questions. It would have irritated and bored me if people had seen my need to know how as not as good as knowing why and what.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
in4mkaren
LOL! I only officially taught 1 year of school! Plus 1 year of student teaching and 1 year of substitute teaching. You wouldn't think I'd be so burnt out, would you?
I'm actually not struggling with frustration at the moment. Things are going smoothly. We like what we're doing together. But I have little niggly doubts, which explode in the face of advice that I interpret to mean unschooling should be harder, and require more work from me like spending intentional effort to find things to strew. I think developing emotionally healthy relationships and approaching life playfully to be more beneficial in my family.
>>> How do you learn skills?<<<Ah, there's the rub. I best learn skills in relationship with a person, either through a classroom or a mentor. I have had older unschoolers in my town to ask questions of - very helpful - but there's no one to live life regularly with, and I feel the lack. Even some of the unschooling moms I know who are at my same stage often require their kids to do some form of direct instruction - reading, math, etc.... And my local unschooling groups meets at a time that doesn't work for our family. This can be partially made up for with reading, but right now I'm more motivated in another direction. When I do get back to reading about unschooling, I've already got Laura Grace Wheldon's Free Range Learning to dig into.
I'm actually not struggling with frustration at the moment. Things are going smoothly. We like what we're doing together. But I have little niggly doubts, which explode in the face of advice that I interpret to mean unschooling should be harder, and require more work from me like spending intentional effort to find things to strew. I think developing emotionally healthy relationships and approaching life playfully to be more beneficial in my family.