Re: [AlwaysLearning] When your child loves unreliable people
Joyce Fetteroll
On May 23, 2012, at 1:00 AM, Alex wrote:
Her insistence doesn't make something so. While a "mad scramble" is a useful response to unexpected emergencies, your daughter is building a repertoire of how to respond to life and she's seeing you go into emergency scramble mode week after week after week of the same situation. Is that how you'd like her to respond to cancellations as an adult?
Take your cues from her. Let her grieve for a bit if she needs it. Then tackle the problem of what to do now rather than a mad scrambled to fix her, to move her quickly to happy.
But first, the most important step: Come up with a list of alternatives *before* the next cancellation of what to do when that happens.
Life is full of disappointments. You can't stop the world from disappointing her. But you can handle disappointments with sympathy and calm. She will internalize the skills you use.
So the problem isn't with other people canceling. That's part of life. The problem is that it keeps catching you by surprise without a back up plan ;-)
But don't make excuses for the others. Trying to make your daughter feel okay about a situation that you believe *isn't* okay for her or you to do to others is bound to confuse her! You don't need to help her understand why someone canceled. Give her the information the cancelers gave you and let *her* internalize whether that felt good or bad. You don't need to rail at the cancelers either. Her disappointment at their canceling is good enough indication to her of whether that was a good thing or a bad thing for her to do to other people.
Joyce
> I am stuck in a desperate scramble trying to find a last minute playmate,If she insisted it was a picnic day while it was a downpour, would you go on a mad scramble to rent a tent?
> usually in the neighborhood, because my daughter insists it's a play with friends day.
Her insistence doesn't make something so. While a "mad scramble" is a useful response to unexpected emergencies, your daughter is building a repertoire of how to respond to life and she's seeing you go into emergency scramble mode week after week after week of the same situation. Is that how you'd like her to respond to cancellations as an adult?
> What do you do when people cancel on your kid for reasons that seem unfair to your kid?Sympathize. Express your own feelings such as "Well, that's disappointing." Every time it happens to her, she learns how not to be with others.
Take your cues from her. Let her grieve for a bit if she needs it. Then tackle the problem of what to do now rather than a mad scrambled to fix her, to move her quickly to happy.
But first, the most important step: Come up with a list of alternatives *before* the next cancellation of what to do when that happens.
Life is full of disappointments. You can't stop the world from disappointing her. But you can handle disappointments with sympathy and calm. She will internalize the skills you use.
So the problem isn't with other people canceling. That's part of life. The problem is that it keeps catching you by surprise without a back up plan ;-)
> The other family is hoping to try meeting up more this summer,Then don't give them that power :-) Build the understanding that they're likely to cancel at the last minute into your plans with your daughter. Decide with her before hand what to do if they cancel.
> and I think, "Gah, I like them, but I hate giving them the power to goof up our day."
> It's easy to explain when someone who just had her 4th kidSometimes people do cancel for good solid reasons and it's helpful to pass those on.
> doesn't return any of our phone calls. Other people, not so much.
But don't make excuses for the others. Trying to make your daughter feel okay about a situation that you believe *isn't* okay for her or you to do to others is bound to confuse her! You don't need to help her understand why someone canceled. Give her the information the cancelers gave you and let *her* internalize whether that felt good or bad. You don't need to rail at the cancelers either. Her disappointment at their canceling is good enough indication to her of whether that was a good thing or a bad thing for her to do to other people.
Joyce
Meredith
"Alex" <missalexmissalex@...> wrote:
If you know who those people are, know they're "iffy" in terms of reliability, don't tell your daughter they're going to show up - at most, tell her they Might show up, but you don't know for sure. It's the truth, after all, and it sets the scene so that if they show, it's a pleasant surprise and if they don't, well, they weren't expected anyway.
If you make one-on-one plans with people like that, back them up in advance, and explain to your daughter that they are Tentative plans - flat out tell her the family is unreliable, and maybe solicit her ideas as to who else she could play with if they aren't available. Don't turn it into a big drama, but don't pretend "it's all good" either (is that a saying where you are? in my neck of the woods, it's what the unreliable folks tend to say). It's okay to let your daughter know that sort of behavior is rude.
Don't translate anything, report the other mom's words exactly. If there's a message, read it to your daughter. She can form her own conclusions. If she asks you why, I'd be frank and say you don't know why some people are rude like that.
---Meredith
>> I'd love any insight on what to do when my daughter keeps asking to see people who cancel or don't respond to us frequently.****************
If you know who those people are, know they're "iffy" in terms of reliability, don't tell your daughter they're going to show up - at most, tell her they Might show up, but you don't know for sure. It's the truth, after all, and it sets the scene so that if they show, it's a pleasant surprise and if they don't, well, they weren't expected anyway.
If you make one-on-one plans with people like that, back them up in advance, and explain to your daughter that they are Tentative plans - flat out tell her the family is unreliable, and maybe solicit her ideas as to who else she could play with if they aren't available. Don't turn it into a big drama, but don't pretend "it's all good" either (is that a saying where you are? in my neck of the woods, it's what the unreliable folks tend to say). It's okay to let your daughter know that sort of behavior is rude.
> And then K asks why they are cancelling, and I don't know what to tell her. How do I translate that?************
Don't translate anything, report the other mom's words exactly. If there's a message, read it to your daughter. She can form her own conclusions. If she asks you why, I'd be frank and say you don't know why some people are rude like that.
> I'm working on finding other, reliable social outlets for next year.That's a good idea. If you have fairly regular, reliable friends, then it's much easier to deal with the "iffy" people - if they show up, it's a nice surprise and if not, oh well, you still had a good time.
---Meredith
K Pennell
In our little group, we have a weekly gathering. The people who show up vary, it's loose like that. He looks forward to it. Group plans have less disappointment than individual plans with unreliable people.
My older son (schooled) had a friend who would cancel last minute. I'd sympathize, and say "well, another friend is welcome to come over instead" and leave it up to him whether he wanted to call. Often, other friends were already busy by this point. What happened is that my son gradually learned which friends to make definite plans with, and which friends he couldn't really count on. He'd call that friend if he was bored in the moment, or make group plans including that friend. Then if that guy didn't show, the day wasn't a total bust.
My older son (schooled) had a friend who would cancel last minute. I'd sympathize, and say "well, another friend is welcome to come over instead" and leave it up to him whether he wanted to call. Often, other friends were already busy by this point. What happened is that my son gradually learned which friends to make definite plans with, and which friends he couldn't really count on. He'd call that friend if he was bored in the moment, or make group plans including that friend. Then if that guy didn't show, the day wasn't a total bust.
--- On Wed, 5/23/12, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
From: Meredith <plaidpanties666@...>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: When your child loves unreliable people
To: [email protected]
Date: Wednesday, May 23, 2012, 7:54 AM
"Alex" <missalexmissalex@...> wrote:
>> I'd love any insight on what to do when my daughter keeps asking to see people who cancel or don't respond to us frequently.
****************
If you know who those people are, know they're "iffy" in terms of reliability, don't tell your daughter they're going to show up - at most, tell her they Might show up, but you don't know for sure. It's the truth, after all, and it sets the scene so that if they show, it's a pleasant surprise and if they don't, well, they weren't expected anyway.
If you make one-on-one plans with people like that, back them up in advance, and explain to your daughter that they are Tentative plans - flat out tell her the family is unreliable, and maybe solicit her ideas as to who else she could play with if they aren't available. Don't turn it into a big drama, but don't pretend "it's all good" either (is that a saying where you are? in my neck of the woods, it's what the unreliable folks tend to say). It's okay to let your daughter know that sort of behavior is rude.
> And then K asks why they are cancelling, and I don't know what to tell her. How do I translate that?
************
Don't translate anything, report the other mom's words exactly. If there's a message, read it to your daughter. She can form her own conclusions. If she asks you why, I'd be frank and say you don't know why some people are rude like that.
> I'm working on finding other, reliable social outlets for next year.
That's a good idea. If you have fairly regular, reliable friends, then it's much easier to deal with the "iffy" people - if they show up, it's a nice surprise and if not, oh well, you still had a good time.
---Meredith
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Sandra Dodd
-=- usually in the neighborhood, because my daughter insists it's a play with friends day. -=-
You shouldn't have to scramble because she has defined a day as something. I'd say "It was going to be a play-with-Jasmine day, but sorry she didn't come over" instead of turn it to a "play with friends day." You can't guarantee to provide something she's made up.
-=-My question is, What do you do when people cancel on your kid for reasons that seem unfair to your kid? -=-
I offered to do something else interesting and memorable, when I could, or sympathized and provided comfort if I couldn't. Holly had a couple of unreliable friends (friends from unreliable families).
Marty told me his solution to untrustworthy friends is that if one says "I'm coming to your house," Marty says "That would be nice." Not "GOOD! I'll be there. What time?" He said he thinks of it and says "would be" so that if they show up it's cool, and if they don't, it's not so unexpected.
Maybe you, the mom, could say that the girl "might come over" next time, and have a backup plan secretly prepared, rather than clearing the calendar because she WILL come over.
Sandra
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You shouldn't have to scramble because she has defined a day as something. I'd say "It was going to be a play-with-Jasmine day, but sorry she didn't come over" instead of turn it to a "play with friends day." You can't guarantee to provide something she's made up.
-=-My question is, What do you do when people cancel on your kid for reasons that seem unfair to your kid? -=-
I offered to do something else interesting and memorable, when I could, or sympathized and provided comfort if I couldn't. Holly had a couple of unreliable friends (friends from unreliable families).
Marty told me his solution to untrustworthy friends is that if one says "I'm coming to your house," Marty says "That would be nice." Not "GOOD! I'll be there. What time?" He said he thinks of it and says "would be" so that if they show up it's cool, and if they don't, it's not so unexpected.
Maybe you, the mom, could say that the girl "might come over" next time, and have a backup plan secretly prepared, rather than clearing the calendar because she WILL come over.
Sandra
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Deb Lewis
Maybe you, the mom, could say that the girl "might come over" next time, and have a backup plan secretly prepared, rather than clearing the calendar because she WILL come over.
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Deb Lewis
***Maybe you, the mom, could say that the girl "might come over" next time, and have a backup plan secretly prepared, rather than clearing the calendar because she WILL come over.***
Or even a not so secret backup plan. If you’re daughter knows a particular friend has canceled before you could say, “might come over, but if she doesn’t, what would you like to do instead?”
Deb Lewis
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Or even a not so secret backup plan. If you’re daughter knows a particular friend has canceled before you could say, “might come over, but if she doesn’t, what would you like to do instead?”
Deb Lewis
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Sandra Dodd
-=-1. Just like I have a monthly goal of seeing just one family friend a month on the weekends, and anything else is bonus, I'm figuring out the minimum of friend get togethers my daughter needs a week and trying to have more opportunities than that regularly.-=-
I doubt she's that "regular" for you to measure it out by the calendar, "regularly."
I almost see your point, but it seems like too much prediction and too much measuring.
Some days people are really hungry and sometimes hardly at all.
Some days a person wants to play a video game for six hours. Other days the same person might not look at a computer at all.
Opportunities and options, though, if that's what you meant, that seems good. Looking for the minimum, though, seems somehow cheap. :-)
-=-2. I'm making a long-needed shift in seeing myself as a really valuable playmate for my child.-=-
"Playmate"?
What about friend, partner, parent, companion, sidekick, buddy?
Words have connotations and secondary meanings that are worth considering.
The words you choose will show you more about what you think, if you're willing to look.
-=-Staying more aware of projects my daughter's interested in that YAY we suddenly finally have time for if someone cancels will certainly help me be less upset about someone canceling.-=-
Having a "project" planned will make you feel better about being stood up by someone eles?
Again, that seems convoluted.
If you think of it as being happy either way, having choices either way, that seems healthy, but wanting a list of projects (or even one "project") ready just in case seems still to divide your life into academic and non-academic, or learning and not-learning, or project and.... nothing?
Sandra
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I doubt she's that "regular" for you to measure it out by the calendar, "regularly."
I almost see your point, but it seems like too much prediction and too much measuring.
Some days people are really hungry and sometimes hardly at all.
Some days a person wants to play a video game for six hours. Other days the same person might not look at a computer at all.
Opportunities and options, though, if that's what you meant, that seems good. Looking for the minimum, though, seems somehow cheap. :-)
-=-2. I'm making a long-needed shift in seeing myself as a really valuable playmate for my child.-=-
"Playmate"?
What about friend, partner, parent, companion, sidekick, buddy?
Words have connotations and secondary meanings that are worth considering.
The words you choose will show you more about what you think, if you're willing to look.
-=-Staying more aware of projects my daughter's interested in that YAY we suddenly finally have time for if someone cancels will certainly help me be less upset about someone canceling.-=-
Having a "project" planned will make you feel better about being stood up by someone eles?
Again, that seems convoluted.
If you think of it as being happy either way, having choices either way, that seems healthy, but wanting a list of projects (or even one "project") ready just in case seems still to divide your life into academic and non-academic, or learning and not-learning, or project and.... nothing?
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-There's a very elaborate story laid out at all times -=-
Photographs might help. Maybe a blog, to keep the photos on. She could reconstruct the scene from photos, if it got changed around. OR maybe with photos, she wouldn't feel so much need to leave it there. And this might be a habit/desire/practice that will pass, too, the desire to have her stories untouched. And it might be different depending on the person. There were people Holly was glad to have play in Barbieland (her Barbie room under the stairs), even if they moved everything, and other people whose presence bothered her. So don't assume that if your daughter has let one person play with her toys that it means she will let just anyone and everyone.
-=-Our yard is only partially kid friendly with lots of funky fixer house issues like broken glass in the dirt -=-
So clean the broken glass out of the yard. That shouldn't hold you up longterm--just as long as it takes to clean up that part of the yard. A rake, something to sift dirt through, some gloves, a box lined with a plastic bag.... one fun project and then your yard is cleaner and safer.
-=-I've been holding on to this idea that people should be reliable.-=-
Some of those unreliable people are probably holding on to the idea that everyone should be accepting, understanding, and forgiving.
They've disappointed you, and you've probably disappointed them, then.
The problem was having those expectations.
-=-Even some of the same people had a few kids and suddenly became totally incapable of effectively using calendars. -=-
That just sounds rude to me.
I'm a reliable person, but maybe not as energetic or as on-time as I was before I had children. And it is certainly more difficult to get three young children dressed and out of the house than it is two. And two is more difficult than one.
-=- Previously it had been really functional to write people off after they failed to follow through a few times, because making plans with them lead to more frustration in our lives and interfered with us pursuing friendships with people who really would come through. ....-=-
AH! I see part of your problem.
You were "pursuing friendships."
Don't.
Do something one day. Meet at the park. Be there, at the park, with the people who are there. Not for any purpose other than being at the park, or maybe playing a game, or sharing food, or making something, or whatever the plan of the day was.
When you meet, just meet.
When you play, just play.
If it never, ever happens again, it still did really happen once. Let that be enough.
Sandra
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Photographs might help. Maybe a blog, to keep the photos on. She could reconstruct the scene from photos, if it got changed around. OR maybe with photos, she wouldn't feel so much need to leave it there. And this might be a habit/desire/practice that will pass, too, the desire to have her stories untouched. And it might be different depending on the person. There were people Holly was glad to have play in Barbieland (her Barbie room under the stairs), even if they moved everything, and other people whose presence bothered her. So don't assume that if your daughter has let one person play with her toys that it means she will let just anyone and everyone.
-=-Our yard is only partially kid friendly with lots of funky fixer house issues like broken glass in the dirt -=-
So clean the broken glass out of the yard. That shouldn't hold you up longterm--just as long as it takes to clean up that part of the yard. A rake, something to sift dirt through, some gloves, a box lined with a plastic bag.... one fun project and then your yard is cleaner and safer.
-=-I've been holding on to this idea that people should be reliable.-=-
Some of those unreliable people are probably holding on to the idea that everyone should be accepting, understanding, and forgiving.
They've disappointed you, and you've probably disappointed them, then.
The problem was having those expectations.
-=-Even some of the same people had a few kids and suddenly became totally incapable of effectively using calendars. -=-
That just sounds rude to me.
I'm a reliable person, but maybe not as energetic or as on-time as I was before I had children. And it is certainly more difficult to get three young children dressed and out of the house than it is two. And two is more difficult than one.
-=- Previously it had been really functional to write people off after they failed to follow through a few times, because making plans with them lead to more frustration in our lives and interfered with us pursuing friendships with people who really would come through. ....-=-
AH! I see part of your problem.
You were "pursuing friendships."
Don't.
Do something one day. Meet at the park. Be there, at the park, with the people who are there. Not for any purpose other than being at the park, or maybe playing a game, or sharing food, or making something, or whatever the plan of the day was.
When you meet, just meet.
When you play, just play.
If it never, ever happens again, it still did really happen once. Let that be enough.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
Original poster had written:
-=-Even some of the same people had a few kids and suddenly became totally incapable of effectively using calendars. -=-
And I responded:
That just sounds rude to me.
I'm a reliable person, but maybe not as energetic or as on-time as I was before I had children. And it is certainly more difficult to get three young children dressed and out of the house than it is two. And two is more difficult than one.
------------------
Another post came that I returned, and there was a bit of side conversation. The original poster sent this:
------------------
Would you be willing to post:
Oops, I was just talking about the people who missed our celebration because they got the date wrong. And have said themselves, "I just can't use a calendar." I understand there are a lot more logistics involved in having multiple kids, or jobs for that matter.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-Even some of the same people had a few kids and suddenly became totally incapable of effectively using calendars. -=-
And I responded:
That just sounds rude to me.
I'm a reliable person, but maybe not as energetic or as on-time as I was before I had children. And it is certainly more difficult to get three young children dressed and out of the house than it is two. And two is more difficult than one.
------------------
Another post came that I returned, and there was a bit of side conversation. The original poster sent this:
------------------
Would you be willing to post:
Oops, I was just talking about the people who missed our celebration because they got the date wrong. And have said themselves, "I just can't use a calendar." I understand there are a lot more logistics involved in having multiple kids, or jobs for that matter.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]