homeschoolmd

Now that I am convinced that I am dull and concerned about the well
being of my children, is there any real harm in *structuring* time to
play games from the "Family Math" book, do science experiments, watch
movies for "history" and "science", do vocabulary cartoon books and
word puzzle books.

I realize it is not unschooling but the hope is that I will
eventually get there.

Is this harmful in anyway?

Pat

Pam Hartley

----------
From: "homeschoolmd" <homeschoolmd@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] What's the harm?
Date: Tue, May 7, 2002, 3:04 PM


Now that I am convinced that I am dull and concerned about the well
being of my children, is there any real harm in *structuring* time to
play games from the "Family Math" book, do science experiments, watch
movies for "history" and "science", do vocabulary cartoon books and
word puzzle books.

I realize it is not unschooling but the hope is that I will
eventually get there.

Is this harmful in anyway?

Pat
----------

It's harmful to unschooling. I don't think you'll get there (there being
unschooling) by doing sorta-schooling and hoping the kids will become
noticeably-scholarly on their own time so you can give up the sorta.

Is it harmful to your children? Probably not ferociously, if you take "no"
for an answer. If you insist that they do this pseudo-school stuff, IMHO
it's plenty harmful, as is any attempt at forcing learning. "Games", like
any tool, can be used or mis-used. Motive matters. Who gets to decide
matters.

I don't know if you're dull, but "dull" and "concerned about the well being
of my children" aren't synonymous (if you really did mean to infer that
"real unschoolers" don't care about the well being of their children and
hence "aren't dull", well, we've heard that song before. It's an old tune.)

Pam, off to gymnastics



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/7/02 4:09:21 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< Is this harmful in anyway? >>

I feel almost as though the question is a trap, or that you're fishing for
reassurance.

<<I realize it is not unschooling but the hope is that I will
eventually get there. >>

Why wait?
Why ask us to bless your waiting?

<<is there any real harm in *structuring* time to
play games from the "Family Math" book, do science experiments, watch
movies for "history" and "science", do vocabulary cartoon books and
word puzzle books. >>

If you have scheduled educational activities and you know it isn't
unschooling, and if you believe unschooling is good, why don't you unschool?

There are people who don't believe it is harmful to force kids to "finish
schoolwork" on a schedule, so there is of course a continuum of thoughts
about what is best/good/harmful.

Why do you want to do vocabulary cartoon books when you can just talk about
the things you see in the movies you watch which were NOT necessarily chosen f
or the historical or science content but which WILL, if you watch enough of
them, inevitably touch on science and history?

If you play games with kids after lunch as a habit, that's not the same as
"scheduling time," exactly, but why should they have to be math games all the
time? And what if a child isn't in the mood to play? Or what if a child
wants to play games for three hours straight and it's not your scheduled time?

If you're thinking more about the schedule or about the subject areas than
about your child's happiness in the moment, you're just looking in the wrong
place, in my opinion.


Sandra

homeschoolmd

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/7/02 4:09:21 PM, homeschoolmd@y... writes:
>
> << Is this harmful in anyway? >>
>
> I feel almost as though the question is a trap, or that you're
fishing for
> reassurance.


There was a recent thread about people who perhaps cannot or should
not unschool. If someone(I) cannot or should not (or can't quite
figure it out yet) unschool, would it be best for me to ask my
questions to another list? (sincere)

I'm not trying to trap anyone into saying anything that could somehow
be used against unschooling. I'm looking for advice, some help with
my situation, maybe someone who has traveled the road I'm on.


> <<I realize it is not unschooling but the hope is that I will
> eventually get there. >>
>
> Why wait?
> Why ask us to bless your waiting?

Because if my daughter came to me and asked me what a sousaphone was
I would look it up in the dictionary and read the definition.

Because until we did a science experiment on inertia, I did not know
what it was. I would never have pointed it out in day to day
living.

Because when my daughter put one hole in a large can of ketchup I
told her she needed to put a second hole in the can to let some air
in. I did not know what air pressure had to do with any of that
until we poked holes in a 2 liter bottle filled with water and
followed the directions for a science experiment (and the book
explained it). We both looked at each other and said "the ketchup
can".

I don't question why things happen the way they do. I can learn
about them along with my children and I can begin to ask questions,
but what happens to them in the mean time? Who can show them the
world?

> If you have scheduled educational activities and you know it isn't
> unschooling, and if you believe unschooling is good, why don't you
unschool?
>

Because I'm "dull" in the unschooling sense.


Pat

Nancy Wooton

on 5/7/02 5:59 PM, homeschoolmd at homeschoolmd@... wrote:

> Because if my daughter came to me and asked me what a sousaphone was
> I would look it up in the dictionary and read the definition.
>
So would I. Well, I know what one is already... They'd have to ask me what
(opening dictionary at random) "smectic" means <g> If they were still
interested, we'd look up "tuba," and maybe look at the encyclopedia for John
Phillip Sousa, and maybe -- if their eyes haven't glazed over yet -- found a
piece of his music from our CD collection or on the Internet. You can
sample tracks of CD's on bookselling websites like Barnes and Nobel. Note,
I would stop before the glaze-eyes :-) I try to answer the questions
without being a complete pest.

> Because until we did a science experiment on inertia, I did not know
> what it was. I would never have pointed it out in day to day
> living.

Neither would I. I was discouraged from any but the most basic required
science classes, because I was so very bad at math. I knew the word from
"Star Trek," and from a family joke about "inertia taking hold" when we veg
on the couch. You may not mention inertia, but you experience it any time
you slam on the brakes in your car. I have a great book called "How Science
Works" that shows demonstrations of inertia, among many other things. I
understood it much better after doing the fun kid experiment where you put a
ball in a wagon, pull the wagon and then stop it suddenly.

Are you under the impression unschoolers don't do these kinds of things, or
that we don't have mountains of books, including texts, workbooks, history
books, etc.?
>
> Because when my daughter put one hole in a large can of ketchup I
> told her she needed to put a second hole in the can to let some air
> in. I did not know what air pressure had to do with any of that
> until we poked holes in a 2 liter bottle filled with water and
> followed the directions for a science experiment (and the book
> explained it). We both looked at each other and said "the ketchup
> can".
>
That's very cool! did you know you can blow out a candle by pouring carbon
dioxide on it? I didn't know that until I had kids and cool books and stuff
we wanted to learn. I've gone through gallons of vinegar and pounds of
baking soda <g> What's demonstrated by the experiment is that gases are
fluids. I probably got that right on a test once, but I *learned* it doing
the fun experiment with my kids.

> I don't question why things happen the way they do. I can learn
> about them along with my children and I can begin to ask questions,
> but what happens to them in the mean time? Who can show them the
> world?
>
You understand unschooling already: it is living life without school.
Living without waiting for the class to start. Skipping ahead in the
curriculum if what you want to know is at the end, rather than having to
wait for the day its scheduled. It's Learning All the Time (and forever, no
matter how old you get). YOU can show them the world. And, if what they
most want to learn in the world is something that TOTALLY BORES YOU, you can
find 'em a tutor <g> My kids will never learn to play video games from ME,
that's for sure -- and they know I'm a hopeless pupil.

>> If you have scheduled educational activities and you know it isn't
>> unschooling, and if you believe unschooling is good, why don't you
> unschool?
>>
>
> Because I'm "dull" in the unschooling sense.

Nah, you're not dull. You're beginning.

Read "The Book of Learning and Forgetting" by Frank Smith.

Relearn joy. Catch it from your kids. Find a cocoon and watch it til the
moth emerges. Or get a caterpillar, confine it with the right food, and
watch the whole process! Get a book about butterflies and moths. Discover
the world around you through your children's eyes.

Gotta go make some cookies :-)
Nancy

--
Not all those that wander are lost.
--J.R.R. Tolkien, novelist and philologist (1892-1973)

homeschoolmd

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Nancy Wooton <ikonstitcher@c...> wrote:
> Are you under the impression unschoolers don't do these kinds of
things, or
> that we don't have mountains of books, including texts, workbooks,
history
> books, etc.?

I can't figure out how unschoolers do these things if they don't plan
to do them or structure the day so there is a time to do them.

> You understand unschooling already: it is living life without
school.
> Living without waiting for the class to start. Skipping ahead in
the
> curriculum if what you want to know is at the end, rather than
having to
> wait for the day its scheduled. It's Learning All the Time (and
forever, no
> matter how old you get).

We skip anything that is not fun or interesting and we change our
plans when we want to go in a different direction.

The difference between what I am doing now and unschooling is *I* am
looking for things to learn about and then *I* show the kids what I
have found. I am setting time aside each day to do these things.
That is not unschooling.

An unschooled child would feel inertia and ask why or an unschooling
mom would see those heads snap back and realize there is an
opportunity to wonder. I'm not there yet.

>Find a cocoon and watch it til the
> moth emerges. Or get a caterpillar, confine it with the right
food, and
> watch the whole process! Get a book about butterflies and moths.

We did that, it was awesome, but someone else suggested it and I
planned it for "school". To me it is like learning a foreign
language. First you hear the word and translate it to English then
eventually you hear the word and just know what it means.

At this point in my learning process I am translating learning
opportunities into "school" because that is all I know, eventually, I
hope to drop the "school" and let life takes over.

Pat

[email protected]

<<I don't question why things happen the way they do. I can learn
about them along with my children and I can begin to ask questions,
but what happens to them in the mean time? Who can show them the
world?>>

Your answer is above Pat. Just change the negatives to positives. IMHO, This
is all you need to do to start unschooling:
"I will question why things happen the way they do. I can learn
about them along with my children and I can begin to ask questions.
*I* can show them the
world!!"
Just keep asking why? It sounds like you are doing great now, you just need
to keep telling yourself that things are going well, the kids are learning
(which they will do anyway as long as you are not hindering them (by
teaching)) Put your revised statement on your mirror where you'll see it
every morning when you brush your teeth.

~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/7/02 7:05:27 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< Because if my daughter came to me and asked me what a sousaphone was
I would look it up in the dictionary and read the definition.>>

That's not a bad thing. I've been involved in music my whole life, and I
knew what sousaphone was, and knew we would have color photos. We have
recordings of John Phillips Sousa marches too, but I refrained from throwing
ALL my resources at a simple question.


<<Because until we did a science experiment on inertia, I did not know
what it was. I would never have pointed it out in day to day
living. >>

That's vocabulary. You know the realities of inertia, you just didn't have
the lingo.

<<Because when my daughter put one hole in a large can of ketchup I
told her she needed to put a second hole in the can to let some air
in. I did not know what air pressure had to do with any of that
until we poked holes in a 2 liter bottle filled with water and
followed the directions for a science experiment (and the book
explained it). We both looked at each other and said "the ketchup
can".>>

I knew that when I was a kid from canned milk and from chocolate syrup in a
can. My kids now learn it from plastic two-gallon water dispensers that need
to be stabbed to flow. People learn it when they need it! Neither formal
school nor unschooling has a moment to create an artificial situation in
which that is presented in the absence of something in a can or bottle or
whatever when it matters.

<<I don't question why things happen the way they do. I can learn
about them along with my children and I can begin to ask questions,
but what happens to them in the mean time? Who can show them the
world?>>

Let them see it themselves.

My question to you is why there should be a "meantime" between now and that
time when you begin to learn along with your children and you begin to ask
questions.

<<Because I'm "dull" in the unschooling sense.>>

Rent some movies, make some popcorn, and relax with your kids. When
discussions arise, go with them. If you can't do it today, do it tomorrow.
Or something as good or better. That's how you start.

Defining yourself or your children in negative ways is a step back each time.
Look at the sweet, right, good moments, and step away from the scarier,
darker, duller moments. Half an inch toward the light is toward the light.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/8/02 4:51:50 AM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< I can't figure out how unschoolers do these things if they don't plan
to do them or structure the day so there is a time to do them.>>

Maybe it's like priming a hand-pump (another air pressure/water
situation)--the first pump gets nothing. The second usually gets nothing.
Once the water's in the pipe, though, every touch on the pump handle brings
water.

Or like sourdough bread. Once you have the starter and you keep paying
attention enough to make more bread every once in a while, "It's easy." But
for those with no starter, it's not just not easy, it's not possible.
(That's theory. There's sourdough breadmix now that has the sourdough in
some kind of powdered and encapsulated form.)

Here's a story of scheduling:

Monday night, here, May 6, some people were asleep, the house was quiet,
Marty was on crutches for the second day from a play-wrestling injury on
Saturday. 10:35, Holly had watched the Simpsons and came and said "I want to
go to bed."

She often stays up later. Sometimes I do too, but I said, "Me too, I'm tired."

We went out front to put a rented DVD in the mailbox, so we can get a
Twilight Zone episode we have in the Netflix cue that we're wanting to watch.

Pretty boring so far, and very routine, and moments from me reading her to
sleep.
I'm at the mailbox, she's swinging from a rope in the tree, and we hear huge
screech of tires, and look over toward the main road. We have only about a
10 degree view of Juan Tabo from our front yard (through our sideyard and
over the back wall--we were at the top of the highest point of our property),
but right there was the wreck, and we saw it. Holly wanted to go closer, so
we passed through the house, I dialed 911 and handed the phone to Marty and
said to tell them there was just a wreck at Juan Tabo and Lexington, and
Holly and I walked through the house, out the backgate, across a field and
sat on the bus bench by Hollywood Video, while the drivers exchanged
information and the passengers in the cars negotiated who was how, who should
sit and be where, and, in one case, what they were going to tell the police.
(We didn't hear details, just heard "Just don't mention that.")

There were three cars, all driven by males in at least their 20's, all with
passengers, one with several passengers, and one from just a couple of blocks
away, because people were walking back and forth from the house, and others
from their house came out. There were no injuries involving blood or breaks,
just fright and getting jerked around.

We finally heard sirens from both directions, but the four police cars which
arrived all came from the south. And they pulled up strategically, and then
three left.

There was another wreck at Comanche and Juan Tabo, barely over half a mile
away. We could see the lights there.

Our conversation involved what the people needed to have and know who were in
the accident (licenses, insurance cards), and what the police are looking for
and at when they first arrive, and what the duty of the police officers is
regarding other traffic, safety of those involved, and other non-obvious
matters. We discussed the paramedics--same deal. What is their duty? Just
because someone says "I'm fine" doesn't mean they can say "Okay" and leave
without at least getting names and vital signs and a little feedback. Are
the people disoriented? How are their eyes? Possible concussion?

Holly wanted to go and see the other accident, so we went home for the van.
Marty said the 911 dispatcher had been tacky with him and said he had to tell
her whether there were injuries and he said he did not know, that he wasn't
at the scene and his mom had told him to call. She insisted he had to find
out. He didn't tell her "I'm a kid on crutches and I don't either."

So we drove by the other accident. Two cars, a harder hit, but no blood (for
which I was relieved). They had just gotten someone into an ambulance and
were taking them away when we passed by.

We drove back to the other one and parked in the Hollywood video parking lot.
No news, no change. We cruised the other to see if the tow trucks were
coming. Not yet. The road, although a main 4 and 6-lane (variously)
thoroughfare, was not at all busy at that time of a Monday night. We were
careful not to be in anyone's way.

We decided to go and watch tow trucks at the site nearest our house and then
go home.


It was an unscheduled hour. I could have said, "No, Holly, you don't need to
see that. I thought you wanted to go to sleep." But I took advantage of
her interest and an unusual situation to have a long discussion on how
liability insurance works, how police gauge by the tire marks and the glass
on the road how fast cars were probably going, and whose fault it might have
been. If the drivers' accounts don't match they have to go to secondary
evidence for sure.

There's no sense going looking for a wreck, but I saw no sense in letting an
opportunity pass by. I wouldn't have tried to take a child against his or
her will to see something like that. So it wasn't my decision, or hers, it
was mutually agreed upon, but I stayed with it as long as there was something
new for her to see and discuss, and as long as she was fascinated.

Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/8/02 4:51:50 AM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< At this point in my learning process I am translating learning
opportunities into "school" because that is all I know, eventually, I
hope to drop the "school" and let life takes over. >>

School is NOT all you know. Or if you feel that's true, then you also know
Saturdays and summer vacations. Live THERE.

Eventually is too late.
Drop school now.

Sandra

Elizabeth Hill

homeschoolmd wrote:

>
>
> There was a recent thread about people who perhaps cannot or should
> not unschool. If someone(I) cannot or should not (or can't quite
> figure it out yet) unschool, would it be best for me to ask my
> questions to another list? (sincere)
>

Maybe. Especially if what you want is someone to say "oh, just do
whatever you think is best."


> I'm looking for advice, some help with
> my situation, maybe someone who has traveled the road I'm on.

OK -- that I think you can find here. It's good that you clarified that
you'd like some advice from someone who has experienced similar doubts
and can relate to your feelings. I haven't been there, so I can't help,
but I'll bet someone else can.

Besy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>>There was a recent thread about people who perhaps cannot or should
not unschool. If someone(I) cannot or should not (or can't quite
figure it out yet) unschool, would it be best for me to ask my
questions to another list? (sincere)>>

I never really got on board with the idea that some people "can't" unschool.
I like to believe that if someone cares enough to ask about unschooling,
they have the ability to learn and grow and develop the awareness to do it.
The idea of judging someone else as "dull' because they don't have the same
interests or passions as I do, doesn't sit well with me. I probably would
have been judged as breathtakingly dull a few years back. Maybe even now.
;-)

>>I don't question why things happen the way they do.>>

Maybe you didn't used to, but it sure sounds like you're questioning a lot
now. :o)

>>I can learn about them along with my children and I can begin to ask
>>questions, but what happens to them in the mean time? Who can show them
>>the world?>>

You can discover the world together! You know and understand much more than
you give yourself credit for. And you are willing to look things up, ask
some questions and say "I don't know, let's find out". It's all good.

If you are all enjoying the science experiemnts and such, DO THEM! Don't
wait for the schedule, pull them out now. If something more interesting is
keeping you from it, great! DO that!

>>Because if my daughter came to me and asked me what a sousaphone was
I would look it up in the dictionary and read the definition.>>

Good! Nothing wrong with that. And the next time one of you sees a
sousaphone, you might mention it. Or point out a similar instrument. Or go
out of your way to find some music with a sousaphone in it. It's all about
making connections, noticing things. Putting together ideas. It gets easier
with time and practice.

Life is good.
~Mary






_________________________________________________________________
Join the world�s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail.
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Nancy Wooton

on 5/8/02 3:50 AM, homeschoolmd at homeschoolmd@... wrote:

> At this point in my learning process I am translating learning
> opportunities into "school" because that is all I know, eventually, I
> hope to drop the "school" and let life takes over.

Honey, I started out using Calvert School -- the full first grade
curriculum, complete with day-by-day teacher's instructions and a
correspondence program so an *expert* could grade my daughter.

I've learned a lot :-) I learned it from Sandra and Joyce and PamS and PamH
and Carol and a host of others. I learned it from -- books! What motivated
me to change was seeing the light of learning go out in my daughter's eyes
when I'd say "time for school!" When my son, 3 years younger, would sigh
and ask "Aren't you done with school YET? Can't we play?"

I was a homeschool tyrant. I'm sure you're not as bad as I was. I was so
unsure of myself, so thoroughly "schooled," I couldn't function in response
to my children. I had Calvert's Teacher Guide to tell me what to do. I
thought if I did everything on each page, just as I was told, my children
would be educated. I would be GOOD; I would do what I was told. What my
daughter experienced was unimportant; she had to do her work. I actually
locked her in the schoolroom for 2 hours until she finished a worksheet.
She still hates Calvert school based on that.

I've been DEschooling myself for 8 years.

I have a problem with my totally unschooled son now. He wants me to teach
him. I don't know how. I don't have a teacher's manual, and I don't know
how to teach him -- when he was 5, and I tried to explain subtraction, he
screwed up his little face and said "Don't ever teach me anything again,
Mommy! You make it too confusing!" That was the day I became an unschooler
<g> (He'd already taught himself to read.) He has a schooled friend who
criticizes him for not doing anything all day long, so I think ds wants a
more normal life; he seems to be jealous of the park day kids who "do
school" at home (they're all in charters, though, and I get to hear their
moms bitch about getting them to do their work!).

It's OK to structure your day; I wish I had better control of MY time. I
tend to hit the computer as soon as the coffee is made, while my kids play
Game Cube or watch e.r. reruns. I tell myself we're not morning people ;-)
The problem, though, is I work two afternoons a week and we have park day on
one of the other days; the two remaining days I spend doing housework and
laundry, then I work Saturdays as well. I realize, though, that I could
squeeze all the sit-down schooltime with my son into each morning, and he'd
be happy. Even when I did Calvert, it only took 2 hours. (I have to resist
the temptation to make it so awful, he'll ask me to stop, and I can go back
to the email! <g> )

Nancy

Fetteroll

on 5/7/02 8:59 PM, homeschoolmd at homeschoolmd@... wrote:

> Because if my daughter came to me and asked me what a sousaphone was
> I would look it up in the dictionary and read the definition.

In addition to what a sousaphone is she's learning how to find out answers
to questions. That's way more important than the answers. And even more
important than that is being aware and pondering enough to ask the questions
in the first place.

> Because until we did a science experiment on inertia, I did not know
> what it was. I would never have pointed it out in day to day
> living.

That's okay. There are undoubtedly oodles of things that pass us by that
someone else would have pointed out to their child.

It's not the answers that are important. It's the questions.

Someone said that the reason boys have a big advantage in physics
(mechanics) in college is that they've had experience with this stuff all
their lives. *Not* because some has pointed inertia out to them. But just
from experiencing it. They've bounced, hit and kicked balls, rammed toy cars
into each other, jumped off spinning merry go rounds. They've *been* the
ball in the physics book ;-) So when they see the formal explanations they
say "Oh, I know that!"

I had a tricky time in physics initially because I had no real images to
build from, just my false theoretical ideas of how things probably worked.

What the kids need are experiences and awareness to ask questions. And
someone to help them learn how to find the answers and encourage their
questioning and exploring.

> Because when my daughter put one hole in a large can of ketchup I
> told her she needed to put a second hole in the can to let some air
> in. I did not know what air pressure had to do with any of that
> until we poked holes in a 2 liter bottle filled with water and
> followed the directions for a science experiment (and the book
> explained it). We both looked at each other and said "the ketchup
> can".

But it's the noticing that's important. If she hadn't had a need to put the
hole in the ketchup can in a real life situation, then doing the experiment
would have meant very little to her. She wouldn't have seen how air pressure
relates to real life. It's likely it would have just been "Oh" and filed
away and perhaps forgotten. Were there other experiments you did? Did she
have the same "aha" moments with all of them? Or were they treated like,
okay that's cool, what's the next one?

And as someone said, if your family enjoys experiments, it's okay to *mess
around* with them. Just don't think of the experiments as the learning and
everything else as just living. It's the experiences that they can then
relate something more formal to (now or in the distant future) that are
important.

> I don't question why things happen the way they do. I can learn
> about them along with my children and I can begin to ask questions,

Maybe make it your goal to everyday look at something you've seen so often
you don't see it any more and wonder about it. Where did the materials come
from? How did they get from where they were to where it was made? Why was it
made this way and not some other way? How did people do what the object is
for before this object was invented? What skills used to be involved? What
skills are involved in the new one?

What advantage is it for some trees to develop leaves early in the spring?
And why do some wait until later in the spring? Who used to live on the land
before you did? (You could go *way* back to Native Americans and prehistoric
creatures or a little back by going to the court house to search through the
records of who has bought and sold the house over the years.)

But don't even worry about the answers at first. Just get in the habit of
asking the questions, pondering *possible* answers and developing a sense of
wonder.

> but what happens to them in the mean time? Who can show them the
> world?

I think what you're really worried about isn't showing them, it's explaining
the world to them. Don't worry about the explanations. Encourage the
questions.

I think Richard Feynman said that his grandfather told him something to the
effect that you could learn all the names of all the birds and still know
nothing about the birds. The real learning is in watching one bird, even if
you don't know it's name, and *seeing* what it does. How it behaves, how it
interacts with birds and other creatures, how it feeds itself. Someone could
decide to rename all the birds and the name memorizer who had looked so
smart before would know nothing. But the one who had studied the behavior is
the one with the true knowledge of the birds.

It doesn't make a difference if your daughter knows inertia. It's important
that she experience it. The beauty is you don't even need to know it exists.
You just need to slow down and experience and say hey, that's really neat.

Yesterday my daughter was blowing dandelions and, though, of course, jaded
as I am I was certain there was nothing for me to learn from something so
common, she encouraged me to blow and I actually *saw* them for the first
time. How the feathery tufts form a nearly perfect transluscent globe, how
the seeds attach to the middle, how they look like little tiny parachutes.
Someone could probably name all the parts or the physics involved, but that
wasn't important. It was *observing*, actually *seeing* what was going on
and both of us sharing it that was important.

(And *don't* think this is all obvious and easy! I explain things to others
so *I* can understand them. ;-) I'm the one who values memorizing bird
names. It's a tough mode of thinking to break out of.)

Joyce

Fetteroll

on 5/8/02 11:58 AM, Nancy Wooton at ikonstitcher@... wrote:

> What motivated
> me to change was seeing the light of learning go out in my daughter's eyes
> when I'd say "time for school!"

Oh, that's what I was going to ask you Pat! What draws you to unschooling?
What do you hope to get out of it -- for you, for your kids -- that you
can't get through schooling or any other type of homeschooling?

Joyce

[email protected]

On Wed, 08 May 2002 12:37:28 -0400 Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
writes:
> In addition to what a sousaphone is she's learning how to find out
answers
> to questions. That's way more important than the answers.


Lately it seems that every day, Cacie asks me about one or two things
that I don't know and end up looking up oin the dictionary. Yesterday it
was Timbuktu ("Where is it, and does it really exist?" and goose-stepping
("What is it?"), and I did remember when we got home to check...another
day it was "forsooth" - she kind of understood how it was used, but not
the literal meaning. She also mentioned that Shakespeare used it a lot.

I have no idea where where she first read or heard any of these terms, or
how she knows so much about Shakespeare.

Dar

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/8/02 12:05:00 PM, freeform@... writes:

<< another
day it was "forsooth" - she kind of understood how it was used, but not
the literal meaning. She also mentioned that Shakespeare used it a lot. >>

It means "f'r sure," and they used it the same valley-girl way! <LOL!!>

"Sooth" as in "soothsayer" means truth or reality, and "for sooth" means "for
real."

Sandra

[email protected]

On Wed, 8 May 2002 14:46:05 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:
> It means "f'r sure," and they used it the same valley-girl way!
> <LOL!!>

:-) I didn't throw in that part, I'm not sure she even knows what a
Valley Girl is, poor deprived little chicky. Maybe we'll download the
Moon Unit song off kazaa...

Dar

Joylyn

freeform@... wrote:

>
> On Wed, 08 May 2002 12:37:28 -0400
> Fetteroll <fetteroll@...>
> writes:
> > In addition to what a sousaphone is she's
> learning how to find out
> answers
> > to questions. That's way more important
> than the answers.
>
>
> Lately it seems that every day, Cacie asks
> me about one or two things
> that I don't know and end up looking up oin
> the dictionary. Yesterday it
> was Timbuktu

Tell her Timbuktu is a computer application
that allows techs to remotely access
computers and fix problems over the network,
especially within large companies such as
boeing and ibm. The other person's computer
screen is on your computer and you can
remotely work their computer as though you
are sitting right in front of it. Very cool!

Joylyn

> ("Where is it, and does it really exist?"
> and goose-stepping
> ("What is it?"), and I did remember when we
> got home to check...another
> day it was "forsooth" - she kind of
> understood how it was used, but not
> the literal meaning. She also mentioned
> that Shakespeare used it a lot.
>
> I have no idea where where she first read
> or heard any of these terms, or
> how she knows so much about Shakespeare.
>
> Dar
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> Yahoo! Terms of Service.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

On Wed, 08 May 2002 20:19:45 +0100 Joylyn <joylyn@...> writes:
> Tell her Timbuktu is a computer application
> that allows techs to remotely access
> computers and fix problems over the network,
> especially within large companies such as
> boeing and ibm.

Oh, hey! I will.

What we found out is that it was originally the former name of
Tombouctou, which is in central Mali, although it's now used to describe
any farway place.

Anyone have any insights on goose-stepping now? It is "the marching step
on some infantries in which the legs are swung high and kept straight and
stiff", which does not sound to me like the way a goose steps, and it's
about 200 years old. It was also a Nazi thing, and "After WWII, the
goose-step was outlawed in West Germany, making it the only human gesture
to be officially banned by a state."

Dar



Dar

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

KT

>
>
>There's no sense going looking for a wreck, but I saw no sense in letting an
>opportunity pass by.
>

Reminds me. Once dh, kids and I were in Gatlinburg, doing the tourist
stuff, strolling down the quaint streets. Will was about 3, I guess,
making Jake and Jon about 14 and 12. We happened upon a front-end
loader and a bulldozer doing some dirt work in an empty lot, which was
right next to a taffy shop. There were little ice cream tables out
front and the boys were all struck silent as they admired the powerful
machines. They were all happy to sit there and watch for a long time,
and they needed a rest, so they did.

I didn't let that opportunity pass me by! I went into the taffy-making
shop and spent a whole thirty minutes learning about all the different
kinds of candy they made right before my eyes....and none of the kids
even asked me to buy any candy because they weren't there!

The other day Will and I parked for an hour and watched a crane lift a
steeple up to the top of Ellendale Baptist Church's new sanctuary. Lots
of people watched, but we stopped first and attracted the non-workmen crowd.

Not letting those opportunities pass by.

Tuck

homeschoolmd

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Fetteroll <fetteroll@e...> wrote:
> Oh, that's what I was going to ask you Pat! What draws you to
unschooling?
> What do you hope to get out of it -- for you, for your kids -- that
you
> can't get through schooling or any other type of homeschooling?


I took my daughters out of school because Allison (12) hated school
but loved learning about lots of things at home. I knew something
was wrong plus school was robbing my kids of their childhood.

I want them (us) to enjoy learning, enjoy life. Unschooling, done
the right way, lets us do this.

Pat

Dan Vilter

We keep a dictionary in he car. I found myself saying " we should look that
up" and forgetting to. It's surprising how often that book gets utilized.

-Dan Vilter

on 5/8/02 10:38 AM, freeform@... at freeform@... wrote:

> Yesterday it
> was Timbuktu ("Where is it, and does it really exist?" and goose-stepping
> ("What is it?"), and I did remember when we got home to check...

Dan Vilter

on 5/7/02 5:59 PM, homeschoolmd at homeschoolmd@... wrote:

> I don't question why things happen the way they do. I can learn
> about them along with my children and I can begin to ask questions,
> but what happens to them in the mean time? Who can show them the
> world?
>

At the risk of sounding redundant to many other posts here...



I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't want to learn alongside your
children. Not asking why things happen the way they do just seems foreign
to me.

So Pat, if it makes it easier to have one, here's your ASSIGNMENT. Start
learning for yourself! Every time you feel dull in the "unschooling" way,
ask yourself why things happen the way they do. Find out about it for
yourself. Make sure your kids see you doing this for yourself. And I'll
bet you'll have the children along side you in no time. Pretty soon all of
you will be seeing the world together.

I agree with all the talk about not having a scheduled pre-decided course
outline for Science or anything else. Have a good time just living and
discovering. I wouldn't hesitate to share any advanced knowledge you have
about a subject though. I love sharing in-depth knowledge *if* there is an
interest shown. I try never to set it up in a curricular sort of way. I
make it clear that *I* find the particular subject interesting or
fascinating or in some way worth knowing about because... and I share those
interesting tidbits or in-depth knowledge. It might be in words or
illustrations or with physical things that illustrates my fascination with
it. If that sparks an interest in them, we run with it. If not, then at
least they know something more about *my* interests. For me, it is never
something I think or present that they "should" know about.


-Dan Vilter

[email protected]

On Thu, 09 May 2002 09:50:02 -0700 Dan Vilter <dvilter@...> writes:
> We keep a dictionary in he car. I found myself saying " we should
look that
> up" and forgetting to. It's surprising how often that book gets
> utilized.

I like that idea! Ours is kept right next to the computer, along with a
US atlas, but nothing says we can't buy another one...

Dar

Jocelyn Vilter

Credit where credit is due. We actually got this idea from Sandra via Pam
(I don't even know if Dan knows this<g>). She and I were talking one day,
and I mentioned that I carry a calculator in my purse. She said she always
has one in her car and that Sandra always has a dictionary in hers.

jocelyn
>
>
> On Thu, 09 May 2002 09:50:02 -0700 Dan Vilter <dvilter@...> writes:
>> We keep a dictionary in he car. I found myself saying " we should
> look that
>> up" and forgetting to. It's surprising how often that book gets
>> utilized.
>
> I like that idea! Ours is kept right next to the computer, along with a
> US atlas, but nothing says we can't buy another one...
>
> Dar
>
>
> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [email protected]
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/9/02 12:28:50 PM, JVilter@... writes:

<< She said she always
has one in her car and that Sandra always has a dictionary in hers. >>

I need to restock! Right now I have two maps and and an almanac. We used to
have a dictionary and books on birds, plants and bugs, and one on daytrips in
New Mexico. The box died, we cleaned out the car to go camping... well you
know how THOSE things go (except those of you who are super-organized and
clean-freaks!)

Sandra

Dana Matt

I've never been called organized, but I do have a car
full of stuff, just in case! ;) A change of clothes
for everyone, coats and gloves (for those darn June
snow storms), maps for WA,OR, UT, ID, WY and MT, (I
guess I need the Dakotas!), shovels and pails, balls,
pillows and blankets, swimming noodles, "Family hikes
in Yellowstone", camera, TV/VCR...it's amazing my
family fits! ;) But a dictionary is a good idea, and
since I have three here at the computer, I think one
needs to go into the car! And the bird and bug books
are a good idea, too....thanks!
Dana
Montana Mama
--- SandraDodd@... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 5/9/02 12:28:50 PM,
> JVilter@... writes:
>
> << She said she always
> has one in her car and that Sandra always has a
> dictionary in hers. >>
>
> I need to restock! Right now I have two maps and
> and an almanac. We used to
> have a dictionary and books on birds, plants and
> bugs, and one on daytrips in
> New Mexico. The box died, we cleaned out the car to
> go camping... well you
> know how THOSE things go (except those of you who
> are super-organized and
> clean-freaks!)
>
> Sandra
>
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Elizabeth Hill

Jocelyn Vilter wrote:

>
> Credit where credit is due. We actually got this idea from Sandra via
> Pam
> (I don't even know if Dan knows this<g>). She and I were talking one
> day,
> and I mentioned that I carry a calculator in my purse. She said she
> always
> has one in her car and that Sandra always has a dictionary in hers.
>

My sister-in-law, in So. Cal., kept a Spanish-English dictionary in her
car because they always wanted to know the literal translations of
Spanish place names, street names, etc.

Betsy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jocelyn Vilter

We have one of those too!!! It's gone missing from the car as of late, but
we bought it when we were driving back and forth between Texas and
California a lot.

jocelyn
>
> My sister-in-law, in So. Cal., kept a Spanish-English dictionary in her
> car because they always wanted to know the literal translations of
> Spanish place names, street names, etc.