Wanting peace in a marriage
Sandra Dodd
A mom in the UK whose e-mail starts rainmountain1 wrote this on her phone, and I'm helping her by sending it through without her needing to figure out how to do that. :-)
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I am writing for help and advise with 2 things that are totally related. My marriage and my daughters behaviour.
We have been unschooling for almost 2 years and were relaxed in many areas before that. Our daughters are 5&2.
I have been trying to keep our family together (having read Sandras pages on marriage/spouses) but something is going very wrong .My husband is needy and gets cross and hurt so easily, I feel I can't meet his needs and the needs of our children (at the same time). It feels so much for me and I get anxious about him getting cross about things.
I have been shouting too much recently and impatient with my 5 year old daughter as she hits and hurts her sister (2.5) I have been talking n explaining with her for so long about this (i know, prob too many words)and she understands and is sorry after, but she keeps doing it in the heat of the moment.
I have got to the point where i have been shouting and making threats ( about what will have to happen if she doesn't stop hitting; spending time with my mum to separate her from her sister) not good I know, but I've been so stuck.
I know I've not been mentally present enough recently. I know she has been bored n unhappy sometimes n that has caused her to lash out.
They have lots of lovely play time together every day but the hitting happens regularly. If the little one touches something of hers, or if I am cooking or doing a quick chore or taking a phone call.
I do try and separate them, each with something separate to do if i have something to do, or come cook with me etc but sometimes it just doesn't work out.
Sometimes it is when I'm right there playing with them both. I try to keep all her things safe n separate, but sometimes we all play with stuff together (eg each with their own toy but in the same game) little curious 2yo reaches out to 5yo stuff. She lashes out so fast I often fail to get between them n protect my youngest :( it has been happening so long I have now got to serious crossness point with her.
I feel helpless n devoid of ideas about how to handle it in the heat of the moment, and after.
The history for her is; I used to be mean to her when she was 2and 3 and i was pregnant with her sister . I shouted at her and found it difficult to cope :( I suffered from depression and was housebound n so tired when pregnant, then had pnd after the birth.
I found it really hard to cope with the guilt i felt at having another child. It tore me up for a long time how i couldn't be there for my first daughter Exclusively any more. I know all this impacted on her.
She also started nursery for a few months which did not go well and was stressful for me and her.
I Had therapy, n lots of help from unschooling lists has helped me to become much more joyful and balanced, calm and peaceful.
but my relationship with their father has been stressful.
Its been hard since he came to this country (UK) when our oldest was 5 weeks old. (he couldn't get a visa to visit 'til then) I had been alone and upset through the pregnancy and had so many negative feelings and fears built up when he finally (from Turkey) arrived to meet his (biological ) daughter.
We have tried to build us a family , its so important to us both. my parents were not together (his neither) and I really wanted my babies to have different.
Sometimes its all so lovely and flows. But at times it's been horrible. Sometimes it's calm but there have been many arguments, some violent (on his part), all frightening.
When he loses his temper it is frightening, then I panic and lose mine (shout at him). Very scary for the kids, and me. I hate it.
The relationship can be unpredictable ( if I'm not really cheery n energy giving to him) I feel tired of it and want a break, peace for me and my children.
I don't know if i have enough energy to keep it (my marriage and all it demands) on track and be the kind of mother I want to be.
I love my husband and want my family to be together.He doesn't lose his temper often n is lovely most of the time. But past hurts (with him) plus all the rejection n stress i have had in my life before this relationship make it hard for me to trust and relax in this relationship.
I have had enough of the fights and can't seem to stop them, No matter how much we've talked n agreed to change. sometimes im just grouchy n then he loses his temper at our 5yo . Or he is tired and loses his temper despite how I am.
I want my children to be safe n happy and live in a calm happy environment. I wish this could be within our unschooling family, but something is just going wrong. I am sad and scared at the thought of ending our marriage, but don't know what else to do. It can be so lovely but the arguments are so scary and unsettling for us all.
My mother was very emotionally unavailable and separate from me and very much wanted to do her own thing, until I was 12 when she abandoned me completely and I went to live with my dad & step mum, who I wasn't close to. I sometimes feel crowded in my family n need my own space (which i rarely get!) i worry that i am being like her. we are friends now by the way and she has a good (ish) relationship with the girls.
Also maybe how she was affects my ability to connect properly with my marriage? (sometimes i feel overwhelmed and it feels too much n then i get grouchy)
I have to really fight sometimes to stay present with my children too, my mind wants to wander off frequently!!
Sorry this is so, so many words. It has all been rattling around in my brain for so long, I needed to get it out to try to get some perspective. Thank you so much if you've read this far and for any advice you could offer me.
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I am writing for help and advise with 2 things that are totally related. My marriage and my daughters behaviour.
We have been unschooling for almost 2 years and were relaxed in many areas before that. Our daughters are 5&2.
I have been trying to keep our family together (having read Sandras pages on marriage/spouses) but something is going very wrong .My husband is needy and gets cross and hurt so easily, I feel I can't meet his needs and the needs of our children (at the same time). It feels so much for me and I get anxious about him getting cross about things.
I have been shouting too much recently and impatient with my 5 year old daughter as she hits and hurts her sister (2.5) I have been talking n explaining with her for so long about this (i know, prob too many words)and she understands and is sorry after, but she keeps doing it in the heat of the moment.
I have got to the point where i have been shouting and making threats ( about what will have to happen if she doesn't stop hitting; spending time with my mum to separate her from her sister) not good I know, but I've been so stuck.
I know I've not been mentally present enough recently. I know she has been bored n unhappy sometimes n that has caused her to lash out.
They have lots of lovely play time together every day but the hitting happens regularly. If the little one touches something of hers, or if I am cooking or doing a quick chore or taking a phone call.
I do try and separate them, each with something separate to do if i have something to do, or come cook with me etc but sometimes it just doesn't work out.
Sometimes it is when I'm right there playing with them both. I try to keep all her things safe n separate, but sometimes we all play with stuff together (eg each with their own toy but in the same game) little curious 2yo reaches out to 5yo stuff. She lashes out so fast I often fail to get between them n protect my youngest :( it has been happening so long I have now got to serious crossness point with her.
I feel helpless n devoid of ideas about how to handle it in the heat of the moment, and after.
The history for her is; I used to be mean to her when she was 2and 3 and i was pregnant with her sister . I shouted at her and found it difficult to cope :( I suffered from depression and was housebound n so tired when pregnant, then had pnd after the birth.
I found it really hard to cope with the guilt i felt at having another child. It tore me up for a long time how i couldn't be there for my first daughter Exclusively any more. I know all this impacted on her.
She also started nursery for a few months which did not go well and was stressful for me and her.
I Had therapy, n lots of help from unschooling lists has helped me to become much more joyful and balanced, calm and peaceful.
but my relationship with their father has been stressful.
Its been hard since he came to this country (UK) when our oldest was 5 weeks old. (he couldn't get a visa to visit 'til then) I had been alone and upset through the pregnancy and had so many negative feelings and fears built up when he finally (from Turkey) arrived to meet his (biological ) daughter.
We have tried to build us a family , its so important to us both. my parents were not together (his neither) and I really wanted my babies to have different.
Sometimes its all so lovely and flows. But at times it's been horrible. Sometimes it's calm but there have been many arguments, some violent (on his part), all frightening.
When he loses his temper it is frightening, then I panic and lose mine (shout at him). Very scary for the kids, and me. I hate it.
The relationship can be unpredictable ( if I'm not really cheery n energy giving to him) I feel tired of it and want a break, peace for me and my children.
I don't know if i have enough energy to keep it (my marriage and all it demands) on track and be the kind of mother I want to be.
I love my husband and want my family to be together.He doesn't lose his temper often n is lovely most of the time. But past hurts (with him) plus all the rejection n stress i have had in my life before this relationship make it hard for me to trust and relax in this relationship.
I have had enough of the fights and can't seem to stop them, No matter how much we've talked n agreed to change. sometimes im just grouchy n then he loses his temper at our 5yo . Or he is tired and loses his temper despite how I am.
I want my children to be safe n happy and live in a calm happy environment. I wish this could be within our unschooling family, but something is just going wrong. I am sad and scared at the thought of ending our marriage, but don't know what else to do. It can be so lovely but the arguments are so scary and unsettling for us all.
My mother was very emotionally unavailable and separate from me and very much wanted to do her own thing, until I was 12 when she abandoned me completely and I went to live with my dad & step mum, who I wasn't close to. I sometimes feel crowded in my family n need my own space (which i rarely get!) i worry that i am being like her. we are friends now by the way and she has a good (ish) relationship with the girls.
Also maybe how she was affects my ability to connect properly with my marriage? (sometimes i feel overwhelmed and it feels too much n then i get grouchy)
I have to really fight sometimes to stay present with my children too, my mind wants to wander off frequently!!
Sorry this is so, so many words. It has all been rattling around in my brain for so long, I needed to get it out to try to get some perspective. Thank you so much if you've read this far and for any advice you could offer me.
Meredith
> Sometimes it is when I'm right there playing with them both. I try to keep all her things safe n separate, but sometimes we all play with stuff together (eg each with their own toy but in the same game) little curious 2yo reaches out to 5yo stuff. She lashes out so fast I often fail to get between them n protect my youngest****************
Are you buffering the 5yo from the 2yo when you play together? What I'm getting from the above is you're trying to protect the younger when the older lashes out. I'd work on setting things up so the 5yo isn't getting so frustrated.
This is a pretty common dynamic for a youngish child with a toddler sibling. It seems like you're blaming her behavior on the past, and while there may be some of that, it could also help to know there's a big developmental component. That means explaining won't help! Your 5yo needs you to remember she's just a little girl and help her out so she's not stuck relying on the only skills she has right now.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-My husband is needy and gets cross and hurt so easily, I feel I can't meet his needs and the needs of our children (at the same time).-=-
Maybe if you work on meeting his, he can help you with the kids.
There aren't a lot of options other than you doing the best you can, as happily as you can. The children are older every day, and that helps.
Find ways to give your husband privacy and quiet, if he needs that, after he comes home from work. That was always the hardest for me when my kids were little. I wanted Keith to help me the second he came in the door, but he had just driving across town after working eight hours, and he wanted to maybe change clothes, go to the toilet, work on a project.
Sandra
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Maybe if you work on meeting his, he can help you with the kids.
There aren't a lot of options other than you doing the best you can, as happily as you can. The children are older every day, and that helps.
Find ways to give your husband privacy and quiet, if he needs that, after he comes home from work. That was always the hardest for me when my kids were little. I wanted Keith to help me the second he came in the door, but he had just driving across town after working eight hours, and he wanted to maybe change clothes, go to the toilet, work on a project.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
Sorry.
"Driven."
but he had just driven across town after working eight hours, and he wanted to maybe change clothes, go to the toilet, work on a project.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"Driven."
but he had just driven across town after working eight hours, and he wanted to maybe change clothes, go to the toilet, work on a project.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rainmountain1
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
Thank you so much for this! I needed to hear that it was fairly normal for her age.
Everyone I've spoken to about it has made me feel like she's so wrong and bad!
Meredith said **That means explaining won't help! Your 5yo needs you to remember she's just a little girl and help her out so she's not stuck relying on the only skills she has right now. **
Thank you for this too, it has been harder with my husband getting so cross too, but we are away right now just me and the girls so no distractions and they have me 100% here, playing and things are so much better. My 5yo is happy, relaxed, calm and being gentle to her sister.
Sam
>I am going to try and do this more, thank you.
>Meredith said ***Are you buffering the 5yo from the 2yo when you play together? What I'm getting from the above is you're trying to protect the younger when the older lashes out. I'd work on setting things up so the 5yo isn't getting so frustrated. ***
>Meredith said: ***> This is a pretty common dynamic for a youngish child with a toddler sibling.***
Thank you so much for this! I needed to hear that it was fairly normal for her age.
Everyone I've spoken to about it has made me feel like she's so wrong and bad!
Meredith said **That means explaining won't help! Your 5yo needs you to remember she's just a little girl and help her out so she's not stuck relying on the only skills she has right now. **
Thank you for this too, it has been harder with my husband getting so cross too, but we are away right now just me and the girls so no distractions and they have me 100% here, playing and things are so much better. My 5yo is happy, relaxed, calm and being gentle to her sister.
Sam
>
Claire
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have been trying to keep our family together (having read Sandras pages on marriage/spouses) but something is going very wrong .My husband is needy and gets cross and hurt so easily, I feel I can't meet his needs and the needs of our children (at the same time). It feels so much for me and I get anxious about him getting cross about things.>>>>>>>>>>>>>I hear that you are feeling extremely emotionally stretched right now. You are trying to be loving and giving with your kids and also manage your husband's short temper. The emotional environment of your home is volatile, and spirals downwards quickly as your anger feeds off your husband's anger. It is so easy for this to happen, for one incident to bring out negativity all round.
The way I use for dealing with this is to not feed the angst. Don't respond to your husband's anger with more anger. Easy to say, but how?! By taking a deep breath before you speak. Let the angry words flare up in your mind and then fade before they come out of your mouth. Set an example that your husband may come to follow. Show through your own restraint that uncontrolled expressions of anger are not an acceptable way to communicate.
In order to be able to maintain your equilibrium in moments of stress, you are going to need powerful inner resources. And they come from improving your parenting a little every day. Each time you respond to your daughters with a happy 'yes!', each time you hold them close and kiss their hair, you build up a sense of confidence, calm and joy. It takes time. But little by little, every day, you can make profound changes to your sense of self. You can heal past hurts. And, crucially, you can prevent hurt to your children.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I know I've not been mentally present enough recently. I know she has been bored n unhappy sometimes n that has caused her to lash out.They have lots of lovely play time together every day but the hitting happens regularly. If the little one touches something of hers, or if I am cooking or doing a quick chore or taking a phone call. I do try and separate them, each with something separate to do if i have something to do, or come cook with me etc but sometimes it just doesn't work out.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
One suggestion is to have more time out of the house. Lots of play at the local park, visiting friends, going to the museum, joining a kids music group etc. If they've had a fun-filled day, it's quite likely they'll be happy to chill out watching tv while you cook. Use your knowledge of their varying energy levels to plan for busy times and quiet times.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I found it really hard to cope with the guilt i felt at having another child. It tore me up for a long time how i couldn't be there for my first daughter exclusively any more. I know all this impacted on her.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Having 2 or more little kids is busy! Your resources are stretched. But the more you can give them both the attention they need, the more you create an environment in which a wonderful sibling relationship can flourish. My girls are 7 and nearly 5, and absolutely would not be without each other. Yes, there are arguments (usually over wanting the same toy), but these are resolved quickly because I am there to help - and now they are actually starting to come up with their own solutions once I have calmed the situation down. But I estimate around 80% of the time their relationship is extremely loving. I have precious photos of my younger daughter asleep on her sister's shoulder, and am sometimes moved to tears when I see them cuddling each other.
>>>>>>>>>>>>Sometimes its all so lovely and flows. But at times it's been horrible. Sometimes it's calm but there have been many arguments, some violent (on his part), all frightening.>>>>>>>>>>>Would your husband be open to some counselling? Or perhaps a men's group that deals with family relationships? His relationship with his daughters is crucial in their development. If he can work on ways to deal with his anger, and you can create a peaceful environment that he looks forward to coming home to, these incidences of scary horrible fighting will lessen. In a calm moment, tell your husband that his temper frightens you and the kids. Implore him to find better ways to deal with his rage, and tell him that you are also working hard on dealing with your anger. Changing the emotional environment of your home will be much more beneficial for everyone than breaking up.
I hope this doesn't sounds too idealistic or too daunting. But if you get up from reading this and go and hug your older daughter and tell her you love her and that she is one of a kind, already you are planting one small seed in the wonderful relationship you are hoping to create. One interaction at a time.
Claire
Sandra Dodd
-=- But little by little, every day, you can make profound changes to your sense of self. You can heal past hurts. And, crucially, you can prevent hurt to your children.-=-
Yes.
And little by little is the only way to do it.
One big decision doesn't last. You're considering dissolving a marriage, for example, even though you swore an oath. But a series of small decisions, ever inching toward a new way of being, can last a lifetime.
I loved Claire's post.
Sandra
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Yes.
And little by little is the only way to do it.
One big decision doesn't last. You're considering dissolving a marriage, for example, even though you swore an oath. But a series of small decisions, ever inching toward a new way of being, can last a lifetime.
I loved Claire's post.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
"How to Improve Your Marriage Without Talking About It" might be a really
useful book for this kind of marital situation. It is available used on
Amazon for under $10 including shipping. I'm not sure if someone else
already recommended it or if that was a different conversation, so I
apologize if this is redundant, but I think it could be well worth a read.
Even though it gives a lot of insight, it is quite practical and concrete
about ideas of things to actually do.
I was thinking that many problem behaviors that have become habitual (like
the way a married couple might get into a habit of reacting in anger to
each other), respond best to "crowding out" approaches. It often doesn't
help much to try to "resist" engaging in the undesirable behaviors, it
takes a lot of will power and sometimes the negative feelings get pent up
and then explode and then the person feels even worse - angry AND ashamed.
But, it can help a lot to crowd those negative behaviors out by replacing
them with positive actions (and thoughts).
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
useful book for this kind of marital situation. It is available used on
Amazon for under $10 including shipping. I'm not sure if someone else
already recommended it or if that was a different conversation, so I
apologize if this is redundant, but I think it could be well worth a read.
Even though it gives a lot of insight, it is quite practical and concrete
about ideas of things to actually do.
I was thinking that many problem behaviors that have become habitual (like
the way a married couple might get into a habit of reacting in anger to
each other), respond best to "crowding out" approaches. It often doesn't
help much to try to "resist" engaging in the undesirable behaviors, it
takes a lot of will power and sometimes the negative feelings get pent up
and then explode and then the person feels even worse - angry AND ashamed.
But, it can help a lot to crowd those negative behaviors out by replacing
them with positive actions (and thoughts).
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rainbow mountains
Claire, thank you for your post :) the the thing is, i feel that all the things you are suggesting are what I have been trying for some time.
I spend every second of every day and night with my girls, filling them up, loving and playing with them. We all sleep together and my 2yo is still breastfeeding my 5yo stopped a few months ago.
We go on lots of outings and they are obviously happiest when it's just us 3 with no distractions for me (I say this as we're away just is girls at the mo and the negative behaviour has all stopped) so it shows me it's me not being present enough that has been the major cause of my 5yo frustration.
With hubby I have been loving him up and being as wonderful as I can to him giving lots of love, cuddles, listening to all the stuff he wants me to listen to (he likes to talk a lot about tools!) this has definitely helped our relationship, but the outbursts still occur when i least expect it!
I have implored him over and over after a "blow up" to get counselling. He usually agrees, but then doesn't go, and other times he blames me for his behaviour and says he will never go. He says he is their dad so he has the right to shout at them, he doesn't see anything wrong with how he acts.
When I tell him how frightening he is (he really is very and very big and strong too which frightens me as he is quite physical when he rages) he doesn't believe me and says I am overreacting/ playing. He genuinely believes he is not scary and I am just trying to make trouble.
I don't know what to do as he doesn't see a problem. I see the fear on the girls faces and hear them crying and saying "please stop daddy" and I just dont want to go on with it any more , I just want to make life quiet and safe for them (and me)
Making life better and lovelier for him is what I have been focussing on for months. I realised that was the only way to save our family, to just love him more and more. But his outbursts still happen, and this time (the last one was Sunday night) I just feel like something has switched off inside me. I just dont want to take it any more, or stand by and let it happen to my girls any more.
Maybe I'm just upset now and will feel differently when I calm down.
He also never apologises and refuses to discuss anything with me after anything has happened, which I find frustrating as I want to "resolve" the issue and he just wants to blank me out until some un specified time in the future when he decides to just go back to normal!
Claire, Sandra, Pam, Thank you all for your replies.
Sorry to reply to all of you like this but I am 1 handed on my phone with my 2 girls in a hotel room and it's hard!
Pam, thank you so much for the book suggestion, I will get it and see if it can help :)
Thank you do much for your help,
Sam :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I spend every second of every day and night with my girls, filling them up, loving and playing with them. We all sleep together and my 2yo is still breastfeeding my 5yo stopped a few months ago.
We go on lots of outings and they are obviously happiest when it's just us 3 with no distractions for me (I say this as we're away just is girls at the mo and the negative behaviour has all stopped) so it shows me it's me not being present enough that has been the major cause of my 5yo frustration.
With hubby I have been loving him up and being as wonderful as I can to him giving lots of love, cuddles, listening to all the stuff he wants me to listen to (he likes to talk a lot about tools!) this has definitely helped our relationship, but the outbursts still occur when i least expect it!
I have implored him over and over after a "blow up" to get counselling. He usually agrees, but then doesn't go, and other times he blames me for his behaviour and says he will never go. He says he is their dad so he has the right to shout at them, he doesn't see anything wrong with how he acts.
When I tell him how frightening he is (he really is very and very big and strong too which frightens me as he is quite physical when he rages) he doesn't believe me and says I am overreacting/ playing. He genuinely believes he is not scary and I am just trying to make trouble.
I don't know what to do as he doesn't see a problem. I see the fear on the girls faces and hear them crying and saying "please stop daddy" and I just dont want to go on with it any more , I just want to make life quiet and safe for them (and me)
Making life better and lovelier for him is what I have been focussing on for months. I realised that was the only way to save our family, to just love him more and more. But his outbursts still happen, and this time (the last one was Sunday night) I just feel like something has switched off inside me. I just dont want to take it any more, or stand by and let it happen to my girls any more.
Maybe I'm just upset now and will feel differently when I calm down.
He also never apologises and refuses to discuss anything with me after anything has happened, which I find frustrating as I want to "resolve" the issue and he just wants to blank me out until some un specified time in the future when he decides to just go back to normal!
Claire, Sandra, Pam, Thank you all for your replies.
Sorry to reply to all of you like this but I am 1 handed on my phone with my 2 girls in a hotel room and it's hard!
Pam, thank you so much for the book suggestion, I will get it and see if it can help :)
Thank you do much for your help,
Sam :)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- the the thing is, i feel that all the things you are suggesting are what I have been trying for some time.-=-
Trying isn't doing.
It's not productive to tell us you don't need our advice. It's okay to think it, but it's not as good to write it.
-=-this has definitely helped our relationship,-=-
Whatever is helping, do more of it.
-=- I see the fear on the girls faces and hear them crying and saying "please stop daddy" and I just dont want to go on with it any more , I just want to make life quiet and safe for them (and me)-=-
You CAN"T "just not go on with it anymore" except by running away, suicide, murder (in which case you'd be in prison) or divorce. None of those are good solutions for your children, so if those are not the choices you plan to make, then please focus on what you can do to make it better.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
If you separate or divorce, there will be times the kids are with your husband (and maybe his new girlfriend, or new wife) and you will have NO power or presence in the situation at all.
Let's keep to what can be improved, and how your own thinking can change.
You could tell your girls that you're sorry their dad is stressed and grouchy, without making more of it than it is.
Gradual change is really the only kind of change that will do any good, or that's honest, or long lasting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Trying isn't doing.
It's not productive to tell us you don't need our advice. It's okay to think it, but it's not as good to write it.
-=-this has definitely helped our relationship,-=-
Whatever is helping, do more of it.
-=- I see the fear on the girls faces and hear them crying and saying "please stop daddy" and I just dont want to go on with it any more , I just want to make life quiet and safe for them (and me)-=-
You CAN"T "just not go on with it anymore" except by running away, suicide, murder (in which case you'd be in prison) or divorce. None of those are good solutions for your children, so if those are not the choices you plan to make, then please focus on what you can do to make it better.
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
If you separate or divorce, there will be times the kids are with your husband (and maybe his new girlfriend, or new wife) and you will have NO power or presence in the situation at all.
Let's keep to what can be improved, and how your own thinking can change.
You could tell your girls that you're sorry their dad is stressed and grouchy, without making more of it than it is.
Gradual change is really the only kind of change that will do any good, or that's honest, or long lasting.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
Based on what was written below -- I want to stress that many men do not
want to talk about this kind of stuff and the more their wife tries to talk
with them about it, the more ashamed they are and the more angry they can
become at being/feeling shamed. Unless you think he is stupid, he knows the
girls are unhappy with him, he knows for sure YOU are, and he probably has
no clue how to make that right and may not really understand why you are
all so unhappy with him. It isn't true that he thinks "there is is no
problem," because he's angry a lot - so he knows something is making him
angry. Even to say, "He thinks there is no problem," is dismissive of his
feelings. It is SO common for women to expect their men to express
themselves the way they (the women) do and it so often makes problems worse
and worse.
There are dynamics at play in how men have been raised since boyhood that
are pretty common. Here is just an example of the difference between boys
and girls/men and women. Boys who cry are very very often encouraged to
"man up." Even if they have a sweet mom who comforts them, the message gets
through to them loud and clear that men who cry should be embarrassed while
women who cry get comforted. And, much more commonly, boys who express
emotions are shamed, teased, ridiculed, or at the least shushed or avoided
by other boys and men even if they have a mom who listens and accepts.
Remember, the little boy is still there, in your husband. Whatever was done
to him, he still suffers from it and responds to it and, most like, he is
very very ashamed that he can't create a happy family. He probably feels
very responsible - he's probably grown up from boyhood to think that the
man is responsible for so much and he's failing. And every single time you
talk with him about it, he feels like a failure and it feels like you are
shaming him and he feels awful and doesn't know how to make it better and
he's frustrated and lashes out.
I'm not making excuses for him, I know you're thinking that he's a grown-up
and "should" get over it and listen to you and do the things you're telling
him, etc. But you're telling him to go to counseling where he, again, will
be blamed and shamed (he thinks).
I think women often don't get how awful it is for men to feel shamed. That
they are often acting out of fear OF being shamed.
I think that things won't get better for you if you can't find a way to
reduce the amount of blaming and shaming that he feels coming his way. And
he's probably ultra sensitive to it, so you'll have to really really
eliminate it. One way is to stop talking to him about it at ALL - it isn't
working anyway and is very very likely adding to the problem. I know this
seems counterintuitive - but you've tried what seems obvious, so why not
try something completely different.
Think about how you could respond to a situation in a way that did NOT in
any way point at him and blame him, but that was understanding and kind
instead - or at least relatively neutral.
Suppose he barks at the kids to jump to it and clean up. YOU feel their
pain - you empathize with them so much that it is immediately a "you and
the girls" against "him" situation. Is there a way you can think of to not
feel that way? Can you be on his side in some way? Can you ignore his tone
of voice but respond to his wants by cheerfully saying to the girls, "Hey,
c'mon, let's get this show on the road," and starting to clean up? Imagine
if he barked at them and you smiled and even gave him a little kiss or a
sweet touch and said, "Hey, yeah, let's get moving here girls." If THAT was
your first reaction, wouldn't that be different than what you are doing now?
You can be on his team without adopting his harshness. You don't have to be
against him. He isn't making demands that are outrageous, he is asking for
things that normal everyday conventional parents ask for. Your decision or
desire to be a radical unschooling mom is causing problems for him - a
quite conventional dad. But they are his kids too and you have the power to
make everyone's life easier if you don't insist on your (unschooly) ways.
When life is better and calmer and he feels less under attack, he may be
able to see how your ways work.
When the mom/wife has that deeper understanding of what is making him
behave as he does, it is very possible she can respond differently and that
things will get better. I've seen it happen!! It doesn't mean she jumps in
and acts LIKE him - but she doesn't build a wall around herself and her
kids to protect them from the monster/dad, either.
The deeper understanding and caring must come first, otherwise all the
suggestions we might make here will sound just like we're saying she should
be pandering to his unreasonable demands and ignoring his bad behavior. But
when we remember that the man in our life has a little boy inside him who
is afraid and ashamed and frustrated, and we love that little boy and care
about him, we can so much more easily defuse situations because we're
operating from love and caring about HIM, too, not just about ourselves and
our children. That changes everything - it makes such a huge difference. We
can't give someone a recipe - "things they can do" to change their
husband's behavior when he is reacting to the reality that his wife and
children blame him and think he is wrong and bad and that they want to shut
him out and get away from him. That attitude surely comes through loud and
clear and it is as much "the problem," as his behavior.
Of course, if he is actually threatening - that's different. I'm not
talking at all about an actually abusive parent, but a more conventional
parent who is expressing their feelings of shame and embarrassment and
frustration as angry outbursts and demands.
-pam
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 6:47 AM, rainbow mountains <
rainmountain1@...> wrote:
want to talk about this kind of stuff and the more their wife tries to talk
with them about it, the more ashamed they are and the more angry they can
become at being/feeling shamed. Unless you think he is stupid, he knows the
girls are unhappy with him, he knows for sure YOU are, and he probably has
no clue how to make that right and may not really understand why you are
all so unhappy with him. It isn't true that he thinks "there is is no
problem," because he's angry a lot - so he knows something is making him
angry. Even to say, "He thinks there is no problem," is dismissive of his
feelings. It is SO common for women to expect their men to express
themselves the way they (the women) do and it so often makes problems worse
and worse.
There are dynamics at play in how men have been raised since boyhood that
are pretty common. Here is just an example of the difference between boys
and girls/men and women. Boys who cry are very very often encouraged to
"man up." Even if they have a sweet mom who comforts them, the message gets
through to them loud and clear that men who cry should be embarrassed while
women who cry get comforted. And, much more commonly, boys who express
emotions are shamed, teased, ridiculed, or at the least shushed or avoided
by other boys and men even if they have a mom who listens and accepts.
Remember, the little boy is still there, in your husband. Whatever was done
to him, he still suffers from it and responds to it and, most like, he is
very very ashamed that he can't create a happy family. He probably feels
very responsible - he's probably grown up from boyhood to think that the
man is responsible for so much and he's failing. And every single time you
talk with him about it, he feels like a failure and it feels like you are
shaming him and he feels awful and doesn't know how to make it better and
he's frustrated and lashes out.
I'm not making excuses for him, I know you're thinking that he's a grown-up
and "should" get over it and listen to you and do the things you're telling
him, etc. But you're telling him to go to counseling where he, again, will
be blamed and shamed (he thinks).
I think women often don't get how awful it is for men to feel shamed. That
they are often acting out of fear OF being shamed.
I think that things won't get better for you if you can't find a way to
reduce the amount of blaming and shaming that he feels coming his way. And
he's probably ultra sensitive to it, so you'll have to really really
eliminate it. One way is to stop talking to him about it at ALL - it isn't
working anyway and is very very likely adding to the problem. I know this
seems counterintuitive - but you've tried what seems obvious, so why not
try something completely different.
Think about how you could respond to a situation in a way that did NOT in
any way point at him and blame him, but that was understanding and kind
instead - or at least relatively neutral.
Suppose he barks at the kids to jump to it and clean up. YOU feel their
pain - you empathize with them so much that it is immediately a "you and
the girls" against "him" situation. Is there a way you can think of to not
feel that way? Can you be on his side in some way? Can you ignore his tone
of voice but respond to his wants by cheerfully saying to the girls, "Hey,
c'mon, let's get this show on the road," and starting to clean up? Imagine
if he barked at them and you smiled and even gave him a little kiss or a
sweet touch and said, "Hey, yeah, let's get moving here girls." If THAT was
your first reaction, wouldn't that be different than what you are doing now?
You can be on his team without adopting his harshness. You don't have to be
against him. He isn't making demands that are outrageous, he is asking for
things that normal everyday conventional parents ask for. Your decision or
desire to be a radical unschooling mom is causing problems for him - a
quite conventional dad. But they are his kids too and you have the power to
make everyone's life easier if you don't insist on your (unschooly) ways.
When life is better and calmer and he feels less under attack, he may be
able to see how your ways work.
When the mom/wife has that deeper understanding of what is making him
behave as he does, it is very possible she can respond differently and that
things will get better. I've seen it happen!! It doesn't mean she jumps in
and acts LIKE him - but she doesn't build a wall around herself and her
kids to protect them from the monster/dad, either.
The deeper understanding and caring must come first, otherwise all the
suggestions we might make here will sound just like we're saying she should
be pandering to his unreasonable demands and ignoring his bad behavior. But
when we remember that the man in our life has a little boy inside him who
is afraid and ashamed and frustrated, and we love that little boy and care
about him, we can so much more easily defuse situations because we're
operating from love and caring about HIM, too, not just about ourselves and
our children. That changes everything - it makes such a huge difference. We
can't give someone a recipe - "things they can do" to change their
husband's behavior when he is reacting to the reality that his wife and
children blame him and think he is wrong and bad and that they want to shut
him out and get away from him. That attitude surely comes through loud and
clear and it is as much "the problem," as his behavior.
Of course, if he is actually threatening - that's different. I'm not
talking at all about an actually abusive parent, but a more conventional
parent who is expressing their feelings of shame and embarrassment and
frustration as angry outbursts and demands.
-pam
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 6:47 AM, rainbow mountains <
rainmountain1@...> wrote:
> I have implored him over and over after a "blow up" to get counselling. He[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> usually agrees, but then doesn't go, and other times he blames me for
> his behaviour and says he will never go. He says he is their dad so he has
> the right to shout at them, he doesn't see anything wrong with how he
> acts.
>
> When I tell him how frightening he is (he really is very and very big and
> strong too which frightens me as he is quite physical when he rages) he
> doesn't believe me and says I am overreacting/ playing. He genuinely
> believes he is not scary and I am just trying to make trouble.
>
> I don't know what to do as he doesn't see a problem.
>
Meredith
rainbow mountains <rainmountain1@...> wrote:
Is he interested in unschooling at all or is this your idea?
He's right, actually - he Does have a right to shout at his children, even if it scares them. And from his point of view, he may see it as part of his job as a dad. So then it's up to you to not make him "the bad guy" for yelling.
How was he raised? How does he expect husbands and fathers to behave? The adults I work with have very much the same attitude toward their kids - they don't apologize, ever, or admit to being wrong. It's not uncommon for men to have those kinds of attitudes towards their wives, too, depending on their background. If his behavior seems "normal" to him, then it's probably really frustrating to have his wife telling him he's doing it wrong, being a bad husband and father. Try to see things from that angle - that he's trying his best and you're turning into some kind of strange shrewish woman. Be gentler and more supportive of him As He Is rather than trying to teach him to be someone else.
---Meredith
>He says he is their dad so he has the right to shout at them, he doesn't see anything wrong with how he acts.*****************
Is he interested in unschooling at all or is this your idea?
He's right, actually - he Does have a right to shout at his children, even if it scares them. And from his point of view, he may see it as part of his job as a dad. So then it's up to you to not make him "the bad guy" for yelling.
> He also never apologises and refuses to discuss anything with me after anything has happened, which I find frustrating as I want to "resolve" the issue and he just wants to blank me out until some un specified time in the future when he decides to just go back to normal!******************
How was he raised? How does he expect husbands and fathers to behave? The adults I work with have very much the same attitude toward their kids - they don't apologize, ever, or admit to being wrong. It's not uncommon for men to have those kinds of attitudes towards their wives, too, depending on their background. If his behavior seems "normal" to him, then it's probably really frustrating to have his wife telling him he's doing it wrong, being a bad husband and father. Try to see things from that angle - that he's trying his best and you're turning into some kind of strange shrewish woman. Be gentler and more supportive of him As He Is rather than trying to teach him to be someone else.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=- One way is to stop talking to him about it at ALL - it isn't
working anyway and is very very likely adding to the problem. I know this
seems counterintuitive - but you've tried what seems obvious, so why not
try something completely different.-=-
BUT... Don't do the passive-aggressive hateful "not speaking to you" kind of not talking.
Don't ignore him and refuse to respond. I don't think that's what Pam is suggesting.
Just stop ragging on about anything even vaguely like unschooling.
Something that helped a bit with me was a couple of times when Kirby (our oldest) was little and doing something cool, or we were letting him ride a ride again, or run up and down a ramp even though we were ready to go, or whatever, I would say to Keith "I wish my mom had let me do stuff like this." Or "Wouldn't it have been cool if we could have done this when we were little?" with a smile, not in a whiney way. And he softened right up.
Thinking about how nice it can be to be given some choices is good.
Your husband needs to feel like he has choices, too.
If there is the mom's way, and then the wrong-headed Stupid way, he cannot possibly win.
If he is your adversary, why should he want to be nice to you?
If he is your partner, though, then you can (and should) help each other.
And don't do 50% of what you think should be done in your partnership. Do 100 percent of what you can do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
working anyway and is very very likely adding to the problem. I know this
seems counterintuitive - but you've tried what seems obvious, so why not
try something completely different.-=-
BUT... Don't do the passive-aggressive hateful "not speaking to you" kind of not talking.
Don't ignore him and refuse to respond. I don't think that's what Pam is suggesting.
Just stop ragging on about anything even vaguely like unschooling.
Something that helped a bit with me was a couple of times when Kirby (our oldest) was little and doing something cool, or we were letting him ride a ride again, or run up and down a ramp even though we were ready to go, or whatever, I would say to Keith "I wish my mom had let me do stuff like this." Or "Wouldn't it have been cool if we could have done this when we were little?" with a smile, not in a whiney way. And he softened right up.
Thinking about how nice it can be to be given some choices is good.
Your husband needs to feel like he has choices, too.
If there is the mom's way, and then the wrong-headed Stupid way, he cannot possibly win.
If he is your adversary, why should he want to be nice to you?
If he is your partner, though, then you can (and should) help each other.
And don't do 50% of what you think should be done in your partnership. Do 100 percent of what you can do.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I like a lot of what Pam said. I wanted to add this.
The nicer I am to my husband, the nicer he is to the kids.'
The nicer I am to the kids the nicer he is too.
He is more likely to be short in patience towards the kids if I am.
I think I remember the original poster saying that she too, screamed and was short in patience
with the children and blaimed it on her husband and how he made her upset and that lead to
her to screaming and not being as present.
If your husband is watching this and you are telling him he is doing it wrong while you also do it how is
that going to help?
Just like with our children, sometimes we need to be sweeter when they are not. You can choose to
be that rock while he is in turmoil.
A change of country and culture is a big think in someone's life.
Not having his family and old friends close by can take a toll. Even your favorite foods, smells , music.
Maybe he does not feel he is entirely part of the family if he is hearing he is not doing it right for you and
the kids and that ties up to what Pam said.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The nicer I am to my husband, the nicer he is to the kids.'
The nicer I am to the kids the nicer he is too.
He is more likely to be short in patience towards the kids if I am.
I think I remember the original poster saying that she too, screamed and was short in patience
with the children and blaimed it on her husband and how he made her upset and that lead to
her to screaming and not being as present.
If your husband is watching this and you are telling him he is doing it wrong while you also do it how is
that going to help?
Just like with our children, sometimes we need to be sweeter when they are not. You can choose to
be that rock while he is in turmoil.
A change of country and culture is a big think in someone's life.
Not having his family and old friends close by can take a toll. Even your favorite foods, smells , music.
Maybe he does not feel he is entirely part of the family if he is hearing he is not doing it right for you and
the kids and that ties up to what Pam said.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Don't ever ever talk "at" him. If he's into the conversation, fine. But he
knows you want to talk and he knows where to find you - if HE wants to
talk, let him indicate that to you first.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=- One way is to stop talking to him about it at ALL - it isn'tOh no - not at ALL what I was suggesting. Maybe I could state it this way:
> working anyway and is very very likely adding to the problem. I know this
> seems counterintuitive - but you've tried what seems obvious, so why not
> try something completely different.-=-
>
> BUT... Don't do the passive-aggressive hateful "not speaking to you" kind
> of not talking.
> Don't ignore him and refuse to respond. I don't think that's what Pam is
> suggesting.
>
Don't ever ever talk "at" him. If he's into the conversation, fine. But he
knows you want to talk and he knows where to find you - if HE wants to
talk, let him indicate that to you first.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Wed, May 16, 2012 at 12:23 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
some more personal stuff in my post about how that exact thing played into
our lives and then I deleted it thinking it wasn't relevant to most people.
My husband being from another country (Iran) and very different culture was
what motivated me to really think hard about him and his upbringing and to
give him so very much slack because of my increasing understanding of what
kinds of voices/messages/baggage he had in his head. I'm not saying I never
lost patience or made him feel judged or shamed, because I know there were
times I did. But I regretted it and learned from those times and tried to
make it up to him with extra kindness. He has a really wonderful
relationship with our daughters and it is so gratifying and so important -
it is a source of tremendous satisfaction and delight in my own life
because I know it could have been bad. I could have made it bad - by
setting up the girls and myself against him. I can look back and see how
that could have been the path I took and there were times I went that
direction a bit and it wasn't good.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
> A change of country and culture is a big think in someone's life.Oh wow - i missed that he's from another country/culture. I had included
> Not having his family and old friends close by can take a toll. Even your
> favorite foods, smells , music.
>
some more personal stuff in my post about how that exact thing played into
our lives and then I deleted it thinking it wasn't relevant to most people.
My husband being from another country (Iran) and very different culture was
what motivated me to really think hard about him and his upbringing and to
give him so very much slack because of my increasing understanding of what
kinds of voices/messages/baggage he had in his head. I'm not saying I never
lost patience or made him feel judged or shamed, because I know there were
times I did. But I regretted it and learned from those times and tried to
make it up to him with extra kindness. He has a really wonderful
relationship with our daughters and it is so gratifying and so important -
it is a source of tremendous satisfaction and delight in my own life
because I know it could have been bad. I could have made it bad - by
setting up the girls and myself against him. I can look back and see how
that could have been the path I took and there were times I went that
direction a bit and it wasn't good.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rainbow mountains
It's really annoying me, I want to reply to specific bits of all your messages with quotes, but my phone won't let me. I will have to wait 'til I get home on Friday, sorry.
So, without that ability: thank you all so much for your replies. They all make so much sense. I LOVED Pam's post about caring for the little boy in him and remembering he's doing his best and is damaged too and needs love and support too, even when he's being horrid.
Someone asked if unschooling is totally "my idea". It is but my husband thinks its amazing and sees the sense in it (re learning/ food/choices etc) and tries to tell anyone who will listen about it.
He was brought up very conditionally and struggles more with the bedtimes/ being positive re behaviour and tends to lean towards scolding/ being negative.
Pam is right, I Have been building a wall around me and my children . I thought it was what I needed to do to try and protect them.
At the end of the post you mentioned abuse.
What I really want to know where to draw the line. He has hit/ pushed/ shoved me/ thrown things for a few years. although not hit for a long time (2 years) and totally knows its unacceptable. I think he won't do it (hit me) again.
Recently when angry (so u get an idea of where he is at now) he has smashed and broken things, while screamibg and yelling (with me asking him to please calm down) wrestled things out of my hands (phones when I try to call for help!), pushed me, threatened me, etc. ( all in front of our daughters)
he has twice grabbed our older daughter (5) and hurt her, but not intentionally (intentionally grabbing to move her somewhere, very angry, but not meaning to really hurt her) Just because he is so so strong.
He had pushed me down and hit me when holding our baby/toddler, and when I was pregnant.
I have always thought I had to make it clear that violence was unacceptable. I have been really worried if I didn't my daughters may think it ok to be pushed around by your husband. ( but of course i know screaming at him doesn't help! It's just so hard in the heat of the moment when you're really scared)
That's why I have always tried to talk to him about it (when hes calmed down) and more recently suggest anger management to try and help him cope better when he gets to boiling point.
He is sometimes so gentle and loving and lovely when calm, so if I can learn to not get angry with him when he is grumpy or mean to our 5year old, instead of defending her, things should hopefully not escalate to this level.
I think that's what you're all suggesting;To let him be able to make mistakes without me jumping on his back.
I worry about our daughter though. She really fights him when he gets angry with her , and I do worry about when she's older if things could progress to another level. But hopefully if I am a better role model for her that will change.
Its difficult when he walks in from being out. it gets all tense as Jazzy (5) goes from happy and gentle and connected with me, to stressed and lashing out at her sister as I put my attention on him.
He requires lots of love and listening and attention when he walks in from work and forgets the girls are there, wanting his and my attention and it's challenging to keep the peace.
I do try and involve everybody in the conversations and keep everybody happy and "up" but if I'm not feeling good or am tired or ill it all goes to pot.
What has felt like a pressure on me for years is that the entire possibility of happiness of my family and mental balanced-ness of my husband relies on me being 100 percent strong and happy at all times!
Recently I have been finding it overwhelming and feeling like I have to choose who to support, otherwise I am just refereeing.
I've been choosing him, hence the more arguments between the girls and angrier daddy ( at their fighting) so it's not been working and has got to me being here asking for help.
How do I support everyone and make them all feel loved up and happy and full and keep the peace without me feeling burnt out and overwhelmed!
Sorry my messages are so long, it's so late by the time the girls are asleep and I can get online, and I'm tired. I hope it's not too waffly.
Thank you so much for reading/ answering, it's all helping me so much to find clarity.
Sam (with Jazzy 5 & Ayla 2)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
So, without that ability: thank you all so much for your replies. They all make so much sense. I LOVED Pam's post about caring for the little boy in him and remembering he's doing his best and is damaged too and needs love and support too, even when he's being horrid.
Someone asked if unschooling is totally "my idea". It is but my husband thinks its amazing and sees the sense in it (re learning/ food/choices etc) and tries to tell anyone who will listen about it.
He was brought up very conditionally and struggles more with the bedtimes/ being positive re behaviour and tends to lean towards scolding/ being negative.
Pam is right, I Have been building a wall around me and my children . I thought it was what I needed to do to try and protect them.
At the end of the post you mentioned abuse.
What I really want to know where to draw the line. He has hit/ pushed/ shoved me/ thrown things for a few years. although not hit for a long time (2 years) and totally knows its unacceptable. I think he won't do it (hit me) again.
Recently when angry (so u get an idea of where he is at now) he has smashed and broken things, while screamibg and yelling (with me asking him to please calm down) wrestled things out of my hands (phones when I try to call for help!), pushed me, threatened me, etc. ( all in front of our daughters)
he has twice grabbed our older daughter (5) and hurt her, but not intentionally (intentionally grabbing to move her somewhere, very angry, but not meaning to really hurt her) Just because he is so so strong.
He had pushed me down and hit me when holding our baby/toddler, and when I was pregnant.
I have always thought I had to make it clear that violence was unacceptable. I have been really worried if I didn't my daughters may think it ok to be pushed around by your husband. ( but of course i know screaming at him doesn't help! It's just so hard in the heat of the moment when you're really scared)
That's why I have always tried to talk to him about it (when hes calmed down) and more recently suggest anger management to try and help him cope better when he gets to boiling point.
He is sometimes so gentle and loving and lovely when calm, so if I can learn to not get angry with him when he is grumpy or mean to our 5year old, instead of defending her, things should hopefully not escalate to this level.
I think that's what you're all suggesting;To let him be able to make mistakes without me jumping on his back.
I worry about our daughter though. She really fights him when he gets angry with her , and I do worry about when she's older if things could progress to another level. But hopefully if I am a better role model for her that will change.
Its difficult when he walks in from being out. it gets all tense as Jazzy (5) goes from happy and gentle and connected with me, to stressed and lashing out at her sister as I put my attention on him.
He requires lots of love and listening and attention when he walks in from work and forgets the girls are there, wanting his and my attention and it's challenging to keep the peace.
I do try and involve everybody in the conversations and keep everybody happy and "up" but if I'm not feeling good or am tired or ill it all goes to pot.
What has felt like a pressure on me for years is that the entire possibility of happiness of my family and mental balanced-ness of my husband relies on me being 100 percent strong and happy at all times!
Recently I have been finding it overwhelming and feeling like I have to choose who to support, otherwise I am just refereeing.
I've been choosing him, hence the more arguments between the girls and angrier daddy ( at their fighting) so it's not been working and has got to me being here asking for help.
How do I support everyone and make them all feel loved up and happy and full and keep the peace without me feeling burnt out and overwhelmed!
Sorry my messages are so long, it's so late by the time the girls are asleep and I can get online, and I'm tired. I hope it's not too waffly.
Thank you so much for reading/ answering, it's all helping me so much to find clarity.
Sam (with Jazzy 5 & Ayla 2)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
==Recently when angry (so u get an idea of where he is at now) he has smashed and broken things, while screamibg and yelling (with me asking him to please calm down) wrestled things out of my hands (phones when I try to call for help!), pushed me, threatened me, etc. ( all in front of our daughters)
I read somewhere once that our bodies and brains work on a sort of survival hierarchy. First, we need food and water. Second, we need safety. Only after these very basic survival needs are met can we focus on other pursuits. I don't know if that's exactly how it went but it was something like that. The point was that our brains don't have much room for education or art or fun if we are in a constant state of survival stress. In the same way that children cannot learn in school when they are in fear of being bullied, they cannot learn at home if a parent is angry, violent and abusive.
I don't see this much different than the situation with the 21 year old adult child being angry and mean toward his younger brother. I get that a parent has more rights or weight, so to speak, than a child but that's because the parent also has more responsibility. But children deserve to be safe from abusive parents just as much as they deserve to be safe from abusive siblings or strangers.
Alysia
>This is violence and abuse. I don't see how much, if any, positive learning can happen in an atmosphere of fear and abuse like this. It seems to me that the physical safety of people is more important than unschooling or any other type of education.
> he has twice grabbed our older daughter (5) and hurt her, but not intentionally (intentionally grabbing to move her somewhere, very angry, but not meaning to really hurt her) Just because he is so so strong.
>
> He had pushed me down and hit me when holding our baby/toddler, and when I was pregnant.==
I read somewhere once that our bodies and brains work on a sort of survival hierarchy. First, we need food and water. Second, we need safety. Only after these very basic survival needs are met can we focus on other pursuits. I don't know if that's exactly how it went but it was something like that. The point was that our brains don't have much room for education or art or fun if we are in a constant state of survival stress. In the same way that children cannot learn in school when they are in fear of being bullied, they cannot learn at home if a parent is angry, violent and abusive.
I don't see this much different than the situation with the 21 year old adult child being angry and mean toward his younger brother. I get that a parent has more rights or weight, so to speak, than a child but that's because the parent also has more responsibility. But children deserve to be safe from abusive parents just as much as they deserve to be safe from abusive siblings or strangers.
Alysia
Alex
> I read somewhere once that our bodies and brains work on a sort of survival hierarchy.That's Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs
Alex
mama to Katya