Deflecting others need to save my son.
usuheinerfam
I am a radical unschooling mom of 4 kids - 8, 5, 4, and 11 months.
My 4-year-old boy is non-verbal at this point. He has some basic vocalizations when he wants, some vocalizations that make sense in context, and his signing has really increased in the past 5 months.
He's happy, he's content, and he's interested in the world around him - especially anything with a motor.
My issue right now is this - in a school setting, in today's world with so many getting the classification, he would be labeled 'on the autism spectrum'. I get asked frequently if he's autistic and am starting to get pressure from family and friends to 'do something about it'. It's the nonverbal part that most of them want to fix.
I got a message from one of my friends (who I've begun distancing myself from lately because I felt this was coming) who has a son with Asperger's and has him on an aggressive treatment plan in public school. She is incredibly involved with his treatment and his behavior therapy at home and is dedicated to her parenting style - controlling and strict diets and bedtimes because she feels that all of this is the right way to raise her son. The problem is that she also feels that this is the right way for me to raise my son.
She said in the message "(your son) is in that in-between age (between EI and K...), so what WOULD it look like if the school district/county would start providing some services? i mean, he is not in kindy. are there any sn preschools or grouped services or SLP available through them? i'm going to repeat myself - you know that you don't have to go all out all at once, right? have you guys sat down with anyone in the district or even maybe met up with another parent/adovocate nearby with a similar experience?
i'm going to come clean. i'm really worried that he is not receiving any services. it breaks my heart to think that he could be helped now to get some language or at the very least learn a system early...i know you say you are good now, but what are the ramifications for him if you put off any kind of intervention?
hitting send. i'm sorry if this is hard. you can tell me to eff off, but i just don't think this mindset of OMGZ school district is the wrong place to be. i know you are invested in this way of life, but...how is this going to look in 3, 5, 10 years, in 15 if nothing is put into place?"
It's obvious from her message that we've had this discussion on a more general level than she's pushing for here. I've pass-the-bean-dip'ped her, I've gently said "We're good. This is working for us now. If it stops working, we'll do something else.", I've let her know that he *does* have a system for communicating and it's working for all of us, but that's not been enough.
And the real problem is that she's just the tip of the iceberg. I have family circling who think the same things and at least one of them has vaguely threatened to have 'the government' force me to 'get help' for my son. Most people who know he doesn't talk list off famous people who they've heard didn't talk until they were almost 5 years old, Albert Einstein being the most frequently mentioned, but there are a few who believe he needs serious, immediate intervention.
I need words to say to them. "Eff off" would feel good, but it wouldn't be real politic. ;)
I can hear the fear in her questions - and the anger that I'm choosing a different path for my son that she did for hers - and I hear the worry in other's voices. I recognize that. But I don't want it to bleed into my relationship with my son. I'm already actively fighting off 'what if...' thoughts as I work and live and play with him daily.
Long enough. I'll hit send.
My 4-year-old boy is non-verbal at this point. He has some basic vocalizations when he wants, some vocalizations that make sense in context, and his signing has really increased in the past 5 months.
He's happy, he's content, and he's interested in the world around him - especially anything with a motor.
My issue right now is this - in a school setting, in today's world with so many getting the classification, he would be labeled 'on the autism spectrum'. I get asked frequently if he's autistic and am starting to get pressure from family and friends to 'do something about it'. It's the nonverbal part that most of them want to fix.
I got a message from one of my friends (who I've begun distancing myself from lately because I felt this was coming) who has a son with Asperger's and has him on an aggressive treatment plan in public school. She is incredibly involved with his treatment and his behavior therapy at home and is dedicated to her parenting style - controlling and strict diets and bedtimes because she feels that all of this is the right way to raise her son. The problem is that she also feels that this is the right way for me to raise my son.
She said in the message "(your son) is in that in-between age (between EI and K...), so what WOULD it look like if the school district/county would start providing some services? i mean, he is not in kindy. are there any sn preschools or grouped services or SLP available through them? i'm going to repeat myself - you know that you don't have to go all out all at once, right? have you guys sat down with anyone in the district or even maybe met up with another parent/adovocate nearby with a similar experience?
i'm going to come clean. i'm really worried that he is not receiving any services. it breaks my heart to think that he could be helped now to get some language or at the very least learn a system early...i know you say you are good now, but what are the ramifications for him if you put off any kind of intervention?
hitting send. i'm sorry if this is hard. you can tell me to eff off, but i just don't think this mindset of OMGZ school district is the wrong place to be. i know you are invested in this way of life, but...how is this going to look in 3, 5, 10 years, in 15 if nothing is put into place?"
It's obvious from her message that we've had this discussion on a more general level than she's pushing for here. I've pass-the-bean-dip'ped her, I've gently said "We're good. This is working for us now. If it stops working, we'll do something else.", I've let her know that he *does* have a system for communicating and it's working for all of us, but that's not been enough.
And the real problem is that she's just the tip of the iceberg. I have family circling who think the same things and at least one of them has vaguely threatened to have 'the government' force me to 'get help' for my son. Most people who know he doesn't talk list off famous people who they've heard didn't talk until they were almost 5 years old, Albert Einstein being the most frequently mentioned, but there are a few who believe he needs serious, immediate intervention.
I need words to say to them. "Eff off" would feel good, but it wouldn't be real politic. ;)
I can hear the fear in her questions - and the anger that I'm choosing a different path for my son that she did for hers - and I hear the worry in other's voices. I recognize that. But I don't want it to bleed into my relationship with my son. I'm already actively fighting off 'what if...' thoughts as I work and live and play with him daily.
Long enough. I'll hit send.
Sandra Dodd
-=-
I can hear the fear in her questions - and the anger that I'm choosing a different path for my son that she did for hers - and I hear the worry in other's voices. I recognize that. But I don't want it to bleed into my relationship with my son. I'm already actively fighting off 'what if...' thoughts as I work and live and play with him daily.-=-
Maybe write "an open letter"--a position paper of sorts, based on that paragraph.
Kind of a report on what you know, what you're thinking, and either send it to them all, or give a copy to anyone who really presses you, or put it in a public place (blog? if you have one, I mean).
That's a possibility. Something reassuring that shows them (and you, and possible social workers they call) that you ARE aware of the possibilities, and that he IS communicating and is safe and living a peaceful life, and learning.
-=-his signing has really increased in the past 5 months.
-=-He's happy, he's content, and he's interested in the world around him - especially anything with a motor.-=-
Maybe mention those things, and list some of the things he can sign.
-=-He's happy, he's content, and he's interested in the world around him-=-
This is huge, and it's certainly not true of all four year olds no matter what their interpersonal abilities.
Maybe for your own self-support and edification, keep a list (maybe not part of that letter to others) of things from the past you want to avoid. When there were state schools for the mentally retarded, where parents would send children who were considered unschoolable... the situations and "treatment" and warehousing were heartbreaking. There might be books or articles you could keep quick references handy to by people who grew up in those, or even visited. Not enough to be depressing to you, but enough that if anyone presses you to do the mainstream treatment, to remind them how recently that was the treatment, and how closely some of current special education methods can still resemble those things, can still cause some of those problems in children and their families.
Maybe you don't wan to do any of that. :-)
But just as a stream-of-consciousness brainstorm, it might be a position of defense for you and reassurance for those around you, buying time and peace while he learns even more signs and you gather even more stories to tell of his learning and growth.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I can hear the fear in her questions - and the anger that I'm choosing a different path for my son that she did for hers - and I hear the worry in other's voices. I recognize that. But I don't want it to bleed into my relationship with my son. I'm already actively fighting off 'what if...' thoughts as I work and live and play with him daily.-=-
Maybe write "an open letter"--a position paper of sorts, based on that paragraph.
Kind of a report on what you know, what you're thinking, and either send it to them all, or give a copy to anyone who really presses you, or put it in a public place (blog? if you have one, I mean).
That's a possibility. Something reassuring that shows them (and you, and possible social workers they call) that you ARE aware of the possibilities, and that he IS communicating and is safe and living a peaceful life, and learning.
-=-his signing has really increased in the past 5 months.
-=-He's happy, he's content, and he's interested in the world around him - especially anything with a motor.-=-
Maybe mention those things, and list some of the things he can sign.
-=-He's happy, he's content, and he's interested in the world around him-=-
This is huge, and it's certainly not true of all four year olds no matter what their interpersonal abilities.
Maybe for your own self-support and edification, keep a list (maybe not part of that letter to others) of things from the past you want to avoid. When there were state schools for the mentally retarded, where parents would send children who were considered unschoolable... the situations and "treatment" and warehousing were heartbreaking. There might be books or articles you could keep quick references handy to by people who grew up in those, or even visited. Not enough to be depressing to you, but enough that if anyone presses you to do the mainstream treatment, to remind them how recently that was the treatment, and how closely some of current special education methods can still resemble those things, can still cause some of those problems in children and their families.
Maybe you don't wan to do any of that. :-)
But just as a stream-of-consciousness brainstorm, it might be a position of defense for you and reassurance for those around you, buying time and peace while he learns even more signs and you gather even more stories to tell of his learning and growth.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
Given that she let eff off be an option...
If it were me, and I'm a draw the line in the sand kind of confrontationalist, I would ask what evidence she has that what she's got is going to pay off in 3, 5, 10, or 15 years. How does she have any greater degree of certainty that your methods are less effective at helping your son than her methods are with helping her child? Her's may simply be a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. Looking at the wikipedia page on autistic therapies it seems that there is almost no evidence for any benefits from any therapies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_treatments.
And that's what I'd arm myself with. I'd research the hell out of it. Knowing things tends to make people trust that you aren't being whimsical about your child's well-being. I knew a lot about the benefits of breast-feeding, both to the child and to me. So my breast-feeding Simon and Linnaea until they were 5 and 6 was something that ended up being questioned far less than I anticipated by family. Also I'm really good at telling people that it isn't their business. If someone threatened me with asking for government intervention, even lightly, I'd be on them like white on rice. I'd ask them exactly how they thought it would benefit my son. I'd ask them exactly how much they felt the government cared about my son and which kind of intervention they thought would be an appropriate intervention for the government to take. If they felt that putting my child into care was a good way of helping him to grow into the kind of man they thought he ought to be. I
would be livid. It wouldn't be pretty.
Sandra wrote in a post the other day "For my part, I stopped having people stay at my house who were
hostile, unfair, irrational, accusatory or threatening, and then there
was more peace in the world." Maybe you could look to have less time with the folks who are questioning your parenting in hostile, unfair, irrational, accusatory or threatening ways. Just spend less time with them.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If it were me, and I'm a draw the line in the sand kind of confrontationalist, I would ask what evidence she has that what she's got is going to pay off in 3, 5, 10, or 15 years. How does she have any greater degree of certainty that your methods are less effective at helping your son than her methods are with helping her child? Her's may simply be a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing. Looking at the wikipedia page on autistic therapies it seems that there is almost no evidence for any benefits from any therapies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autism_treatments.
And that's what I'd arm myself with. I'd research the hell out of it. Knowing things tends to make people trust that you aren't being whimsical about your child's well-being. I knew a lot about the benefits of breast-feeding, both to the child and to me. So my breast-feeding Simon and Linnaea until they were 5 and 6 was something that ended up being questioned far less than I anticipated by family. Also I'm really good at telling people that it isn't their business. If someone threatened me with asking for government intervention, even lightly, I'd be on them like white on rice. I'd ask them exactly how they thought it would benefit my son. I'd ask them exactly how much they felt the government cared about my son and which kind of intervention they thought would be an appropriate intervention for the government to take. If they felt that putting my child into care was a good way of helping him to grow into the kind of man they thought he ought to be. I
would be livid. It wouldn't be pretty.
Sandra wrote in a post the other day "For my part, I stopped having people stay at my house who were
hostile, unfair, irrational, accusatory or threatening, and then there
was more peace in the world." Maybe you could look to have less time with the folks who are questioning your parenting in hostile, unfair, irrational, accusatory or threatening ways. Just spend less time with them.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"usuheinerfam" <usuheinerfam@...> wrote:
You could be describing one of my cousins when he was 4... except it was anything with an electrical plug, and when his parents would take him places he loved to back-track cords to the outlets. Now he's in musical theater - sings, dances, plays piano, is a real cut-up. At 4, people were saying "he needs services" and his parents... I won't say they ignored it but they were special ed teachers. They could point to tons of evidence that lots of kids grew out of being weird 4yos. They aren't unschoolers, but they were very influenced by the work of John Holt.
My daughter was a weird 4yo. She wasn't so much non-verbal as had an aversion to language... oh, gosh that's tricky to explain. She didn't like words and sign language frustrated her because she couldn't make beautiful perfect hand shapes yet so it wasn't a good alternative. It helped, in terms of dealing with other people, that I'd spent a lot of time studying Montessori theory and could wave that around like a flag - "we're using a Montessori-based approach that's been proven effective with kids with special needs". There's enough overlap between the theory and unschooling philosophy it's even arguably true. I also did a lot of reading about a bunch of different childhood issues - Sensory Integration Disorder is one I looked at pretty hard since Mo has a lot of odd sensory issues. I haven't been interested in diagnosing her so much as looking for stories of kids who have things in common with my kid and finding out what's helpful and what's not. Some of that, I've been able to use to fend off other adults. Some of it I wish I'd found when my stepson, Ray was younger. Now, Mo's a quirky 10yo, but she's fully capable of socializing and playing with adults and children. I have a lovely story of her very politely asking an adult friend to back down on the issue of what to wear to play laser tag.
As Schuyler pointed out, having information to back you up - even buzz words to throw around - is a good way to stave off well meaning parents who know the value of services in school but not much about unschooling. In school, getting services early is vital. One of my co-workers just moved to a new school district and his 4yo has been miserable and termed a behavior problem by the new school... right up until his parents realized that his special ed file hadn't transferred with him. Now, he's not a "behavior problem" any more, he has a "speech delay" and needs extra help. This is pre-K, not even kindergarten, and "services" are what makes the difference in this kids' life.
Outside of school, you get to create an environment which supports your kid. Stories of how other unschoolers do that can be really helpful (and more anecdotal evidence, too):
http://sandradodd.com/special/
It can also help to collect family stories - like my cousin story - to bandy about when people are expressing (well meaning but misplaced) concern.
---Meredith
>> My 4-year-old boy is non-verbal at this point. He has some basic vocalizations when he wants, some vocalizations that make sense in context, and his signing has really increased in the past 5 months.*****************
>
> He's happy, he's content, and he's interested in the world around him - especially anything with a motor.
You could be describing one of my cousins when he was 4... except it was anything with an electrical plug, and when his parents would take him places he loved to back-track cords to the outlets. Now he's in musical theater - sings, dances, plays piano, is a real cut-up. At 4, people were saying "he needs services" and his parents... I won't say they ignored it but they were special ed teachers. They could point to tons of evidence that lots of kids grew out of being weird 4yos. They aren't unschoolers, but they were very influenced by the work of John Holt.
My daughter was a weird 4yo. She wasn't so much non-verbal as had an aversion to language... oh, gosh that's tricky to explain. She didn't like words and sign language frustrated her because she couldn't make beautiful perfect hand shapes yet so it wasn't a good alternative. It helped, in terms of dealing with other people, that I'd spent a lot of time studying Montessori theory and could wave that around like a flag - "we're using a Montessori-based approach that's been proven effective with kids with special needs". There's enough overlap between the theory and unschooling philosophy it's even arguably true. I also did a lot of reading about a bunch of different childhood issues - Sensory Integration Disorder is one I looked at pretty hard since Mo has a lot of odd sensory issues. I haven't been interested in diagnosing her so much as looking for stories of kids who have things in common with my kid and finding out what's helpful and what's not. Some of that, I've been able to use to fend off other adults. Some of it I wish I'd found when my stepson, Ray was younger. Now, Mo's a quirky 10yo, but she's fully capable of socializing and playing with adults and children. I have a lovely story of her very politely asking an adult friend to back down on the issue of what to wear to play laser tag.
As Schuyler pointed out, having information to back you up - even buzz words to throw around - is a good way to stave off well meaning parents who know the value of services in school but not much about unschooling. In school, getting services early is vital. One of my co-workers just moved to a new school district and his 4yo has been miserable and termed a behavior problem by the new school... right up until his parents realized that his special ed file hadn't transferred with him. Now, he's not a "behavior problem" any more, he has a "speech delay" and needs extra help. This is pre-K, not even kindergarten, and "services" are what makes the difference in this kids' life.
Outside of school, you get to create an environment which supports your kid. Stories of how other unschoolers do that can be really helpful (and more anecdotal evidence, too):
http://sandradodd.com/special/
It can also help to collect family stories - like my cousin story - to bandy about when people are expressing (well meaning but misplaced) concern.
---Meredith
sheeboo2
Yes to everything said here! PubMed is your friend: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov as is Google Scholar: http://scholar.google.com/
If you know someone at a university, they'll be able to pull the full text articles for you for free, as may, perhaps, your local library. Often, reading the abstracts will give you enough info.
In a quick search, I found this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289897
Which claims that the Lovaas model appears to be the most effective intervention. Oy. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_intensive_behavior_intervention
(basically, works great when the professionals electrically shock the children and not so great without)
Autism is BIG business and it is only going to grow**. Millions (billions?) of dollars (and pounds) are being thrown at spectrum disorders, with billions more to follow. Keep in mind too, that every group with "Autism" in its name exists (and profits) because of the fear "spectrum disorders" raises in parents and families--their continued existence depends on their ability to make themselves useful.
Don't forget too that the vast majority of these children are sitting in schools and need to be controlled, need to be able to function in a group setting, and, because the majority of new diagnoses come from oftentimes more vocal mid to upper economic-class families, need to be given "treatment" to ease their parents' fears. All too often, it feels better to do "something" rather than "nothing," as if something (structured, external, led by a "professional") means you can control the outcome.
From the research I did a few years ago when a friend was going through what you're going through now, the conclusion we came to was that the Best therapeutic results were from customized, child-centerd play "therapies" that, guess what? look (I'm guessing) exactly like your lives at home already!
That said: read, read, read. Talk to people. I'm sure you can learn about some new fun games to play together. Find your confidence. Also, there is an autism "pride" movement which you may find interesting.
Oh, and a beautiful piece of unschooling writing about a child who would have been placed on the spectrum if in school: http://www.livingjoyfully.ca/anneo/I_Am_What_I_Am.htm
Brie
**I was curious if I could find a number for how much the autism industry is valued at and found this: http://arccd.com/investment-potential-in-the-growing-autism-industry/
Seems like a great investment opportunity according to this financial firm
If you know someone at a university, they'll be able to pull the full text articles for you for free, as may, perhaps, your local library. Often, reading the abstracts will give you enough info.
In a quick search, I found this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21289897
Which claims that the Lovaas model appears to be the most effective intervention. Oy. Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_intensive_behavior_intervention
(basically, works great when the professionals electrically shock the children and not so great without)
Autism is BIG business and it is only going to grow**. Millions (billions?) of dollars (and pounds) are being thrown at spectrum disorders, with billions more to follow. Keep in mind too, that every group with "Autism" in its name exists (and profits) because of the fear "spectrum disorders" raises in parents and families--their continued existence depends on their ability to make themselves useful.
Don't forget too that the vast majority of these children are sitting in schools and need to be controlled, need to be able to function in a group setting, and, because the majority of new diagnoses come from oftentimes more vocal mid to upper economic-class families, need to be given "treatment" to ease their parents' fears. All too often, it feels better to do "something" rather than "nothing," as if something (structured, external, led by a "professional") means you can control the outcome.
From the research I did a few years ago when a friend was going through what you're going through now, the conclusion we came to was that the Best therapeutic results were from customized, child-centerd play "therapies" that, guess what? look (I'm guessing) exactly like your lives at home already!
That said: read, read, read. Talk to people. I'm sure you can learn about some new fun games to play together. Find your confidence. Also, there is an autism "pride" movement which you may find interesting.
Oh, and a beautiful piece of unschooling writing about a child who would have been placed on the spectrum if in school: http://www.livingjoyfully.ca/anneo/I_Am_What_I_Am.htm
Brie
**I was curious if I could find a number for how much the autism industry is valued at and found this: http://arccd.com/investment-potential-in-the-growing-autism-industry/
Seems like a great investment opportunity according to this financial firm
mightylittledude
Is it just the late talking that is worrying you and/or your friend?
If so, there is a wonderful book called 'The Einstein Syndrome' by Thomas Sowell, which addresses the idea of late-talking as related to autism. Or rather how it is also often not related. He talks about speech therapists at length, and early intervention (and he is very wary of both). Five is not uncommon a age for classic late-talkers (especially boys) to start talking, from what I remember. He uses the idea of a 'late-talker' to describe a child who talks later than their peers, and there are a few other shared traits, often causing the child to be misdiagnosed.
Also, he recommends a resource for a professor of language development and his wife (prof & Mrs Camarata at Vandebilt University) who can do an evaluation (remotely, too) without fear of going down a path of early intervention - which can be exceptionally destructive for some children. The Camaratas also were the first to hint at homeschooling, when we talked to them.
When we found ourselves on the receiving end of an extremely concerned Dr, who wanted us to start down a similar path to the one you are describing, arming ourselves with as much information as we could was the best defense. We read the book, consulted the Camaratas remotely and also talked to some Drs in England, where the idea of a child talking later was not considered such a big deal. Because the Camaratas are so highly respected as speech experts, it was reassuring to our Dr to know we had their input. And to us too.
Cornelia
If so, there is a wonderful book called 'The Einstein Syndrome' by Thomas Sowell, which addresses the idea of late-talking as related to autism. Or rather how it is also often not related. He talks about speech therapists at length, and early intervention (and he is very wary of both). Five is not uncommon a age for classic late-talkers (especially boys) to start talking, from what I remember. He uses the idea of a 'late-talker' to describe a child who talks later than their peers, and there are a few other shared traits, often causing the child to be misdiagnosed.
Also, he recommends a resource for a professor of language development and his wife (prof & Mrs Camarata at Vandebilt University) who can do an evaluation (remotely, too) without fear of going down a path of early intervention - which can be exceptionally destructive for some children. The Camaratas also were the first to hint at homeschooling, when we talked to them.
When we found ourselves on the receiving end of an extremely concerned Dr, who wanted us to start down a similar path to the one you are describing, arming ourselves with as much information as we could was the best defense. We read the book, consulted the Camaratas remotely and also talked to some Drs in England, where the idea of a child talking later was not considered such a big deal. Because the Camaratas are so highly respected as speech experts, it was reassuring to our Dr to know we had their input. And to us too.
Cornelia
Sandra Dodd
-=-Also, he recommends a resource for a professor of language development and his wife (prof & Mrs Camarata at Vandebilt University) who can do an evaluation (remotely, too) without fear of going down a path of early intervention - which can be exceptionally destructive for some children. The Camaratas also were the first to hint at homeschooling, when we talked to them.-=-
That's a wonderful idea!
Speech therapists either work for schools (TONS of them work for schools) or they work with the assumption that kids need to "get on track" for school.
A great deal of what happens with professionals (in the U.S., at least; don't know about other places) is that they assume school is a given and that parents will all be equally hopeful that their children will be above average. With everyone racing for the "above average" and no one willing to settle for the inevitable "below average," doctors, therapists, social workers, everyone assumes that kids are being rushed toward "a good start in school," and that involves having their pointy parts sanded down so they will seem either average or better than average.
Dealing with a professional who understands the advantages of homeschooling opens up a big alternate universe, just about.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's a wonderful idea!
Speech therapists either work for schools (TONS of them work for schools) or they work with the assumption that kids need to "get on track" for school.
A great deal of what happens with professionals (in the U.S., at least; don't know about other places) is that they assume school is a given and that parents will all be equally hopeful that their children will be above average. With everyone racing for the "above average" and no one willing to settle for the inevitable "below average," doctors, therapists, social workers, everyone assumes that kids are being rushed toward "a good start in school," and that involves having their pointy parts sanded down so they will seem either average or better than average.
Dealing with a professional who understands the advantages of homeschooling opens up a big alternate universe, just about.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
measures of success --'ahead', 'behind'. Very rarely does any of this make
a difference to a child's life in the long run. I think it has more to do
with parental comfort or hubris, not the goal of having a happy peaceful
family and life where children grow because they are nurtured, not
controlled or molded.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **lives as some sort of competition or race. All of these artificial
>
>
> >>>>>A great deal of what happens with professionals (in the U.S., at
> least; don't know about other places) is that they assume school is a given
> and that parents will all be equally hopeful that their children will be
> above average. With everyone racing for the "above average" and no one
> willing to settle for the inevitable "below average," doctors, therapists,
> social workers, everyone assumes that kids are being rushed toward "a good
> start in school," and that involves having their pointy parts sanded down
> so they will seem either average or better than average.<<<<<<
>
> Here in the states we seem to be so oriented to seeing our children's
measures of success --'ahead', 'behind'. Very rarely does any of this make
a difference to a child's life in the long run. I think it has more to do
with parental comfort or hubris, not the goal of having a happy peaceful
family and life where children grow because they are nurtured, not
controlled or molded.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
K Pennell
I'm a speech assistant in the public schools. I'm starting to have mixed feelings about that. Anyway...
The general assumption of public school employees is (as Sandra said) that school is necessary and if a child is "behind" where they "should" be, they need to be tested, labelled, and put in special ed. Having said that, I work with a Speech Pathologist who used to homeschool her kids, and was in a homeschool group with another SLP that homeschooled her kids. So there are some exceptions, but in general, the school special ed apparatus is built for a purpose. Basically, there is a mold for kids to fit. Any kids who don't fit the mold need to be put on track so they WILL fit the mold. So they can pass the tests, so the school won't lose funding.
I'd also point out I work with kids like the child in question. Guess what? Speech 3 or 4 times a week, and they still don't talk after years of this. So some kids talk early, others late, others find different ways to communicate (signs, pictures/icons, gestures).
If the day comes you DO want intervention, I'd recommend avoiding the school. There is a lot of information out there you can peruse and apply what makes sense to you.
The general assumption of public school employees is (as Sandra said) that school is necessary and if a child is "behind" where they "should" be, they need to be tested, labelled, and put in special ed. Having said that, I work with a Speech Pathologist who used to homeschool her kids, and was in a homeschool group with another SLP that homeschooled her kids. So there are some exceptions, but in general, the school special ed apparatus is built for a purpose. Basically, there is a mold for kids to fit. Any kids who don't fit the mold need to be put on track so they WILL fit the mold. So they can pass the tests, so the school won't lose funding.
I'd also point out I work with kids like the child in question. Guess what? Speech 3 or 4 times a week, and they still don't talk after years of this. So some kids talk early, others late, others find different ways to communicate (signs, pictures/icons, gestures).
If the day comes you DO want intervention, I'd recommend avoiding the school. There is a lot of information out there you can peruse and apply what makes sense to you.
--- On Thu, 5/3/12, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Deflecting others need to save my son.
To: [email protected]
Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 1:34 PM
-=-Also, he recommends a resource for a professor of language development and his wife (prof & Mrs Camarata at Vandebilt University) who can do an evaluation (remotely, too) without fear of going down a path of early intervention - which can be exceptionally destructive for some children. The Camaratas also were the first to hint at homeschooling, when we talked to them.-=-
That's a wonderful idea!
Speech therapists either work for schools (TONS of them work for schools) or they work with the assumption that kids need to "get on track" for school.
A great deal of what happens with professionals (in the U.S., at least; don't know about other places) is that they assume school is a given and that parents will all be equally hopeful that their children will be above average. With everyone racing for the "above average" and no one willing to settle for the inevitable "below average," doctors, therapists, social workers, everyone assumes that kids are being rushed toward "a good start in school," and that involves having their pointy parts sanded down so they will seem either average or better than average.
Dealing with a professional who understands the advantages of homeschooling opens up a big alternate universe, just about.
Sandra
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Yahoo! Groups Links
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usuheinerfam
Thank you, everyone, for your feedback and ideas. I really appreciate it. The stories are especially helpful, as are the resource recommendations. I had not heard of the Einstein Syndrome, so I put it on hold at the library.
I ended up responding to her with this:
"(friend), I appreciate your concern and I very much appreciate all of the resources you've pointed me to in the past. We've taken different paths because we have different boys with different needs and we're different women. I'm not worried about how your son will turn out because he's got a pretty awesome mom and, while I'm grateful for your concern about my son, I'm not worried about how he will turn out.
I got this."
Because of the discussion on this list in answer to my question, I have more tools and anecdotes to use if it gets pushed to that, but I realized that I was opening myself up to this kind of, well, attack, by justifying and explaining and trying to show how well he really was doing.
Thank you all, very very much.
I ended up responding to her with this:
"(friend), I appreciate your concern and I very much appreciate all of the resources you've pointed me to in the past. We've taken different paths because we have different boys with different needs and we're different women. I'm not worried about how your son will turn out because he's got a pretty awesome mom and, while I'm grateful for your concern about my son, I'm not worried about how he will turn out.
I got this."
Because of the discussion on this list in answer to my question, I have more tools and anecdotes to use if it gets pushed to that, but I realized that I was opening myself up to this kind of, well, attack, by justifying and explaining and trying to show how well he really was doing.
Thank you all, very very much.
maryann
>>>>>>>So there are some exceptions, but in general, the school special ed apparatus is built for a purpose. Basically, there is a mold for kids to fit. Any kids who don't fit the mold need to be put on track so they WILL fit the mold. So they can pass the tests, so the school won't lose funding.
>>>>>>>In my state, it's not so they will fit the mold, it's to exempt them from testing so their scores don't bring down the school's overall scores.
And schools get Lots more funding per special-ed student, so they want to "catch" all the kids who will qualify.
>>>>>>While it's true that some kids may not "talk" even after years of therapy---some people Never learn to speak---there is no way to predict that. Even for the evaluators and therapists who've spent lots of time in person with a child, and who have experience with lots of other children and adults with similar diagnoses, there is no way to predict how that child is going to progress with their speech.
> I'd also point out I work with kids like the child in question. Guess what? Speech 3 or 4 times a week, and they still don't talk after years of this.
>>>>>>
A young child who can say a few words may learn hundreds more words and then begin speaking in sentences. He may suddenly begin speaking in full sentences next week or month or year. He may first learn to use pictures or signs, progress to picture or sign sentences, then begin to say words along with signs/pictures and eventually just speak, or may plateau at any of those points. And there are other possibilities, but None of these are Predictable by Anyone, whether there is therapy or not.
(I was a speech-language pathologist (SLP) in my former life before my first baby.)
maryann
>
> --- On Thu, 5/3/12, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Deflecting others need to save my son.
> To: [email protected]
> Date: Thursday, May 3, 2012, 1:34 PM
>
> -=-Also, he recommends a resource for a professor of language development and his wife (prof & Mrs Camarata at Vandebilt University) who can do an evaluation (remotely, too) without fear of going down a path of early intervention - which can be exceptionally destructive for some children. The Camaratas also were the first to hint at homeschooling, when we talked to them.-=-
>
> That's a wonderful idea!
>
> Speech therapists either work for schools (TONS of them work for schools) or they work with the assumption that kids need to "get on track" for school.
>
> A great deal of what happens with professionals (in the U.S., at least; don't know about other places) is that they assume school is a given and that parents will all be equally hopeful that their children will be above average. With everyone racing for the "above average" and no one willing to settle for the inevitable "below average," doctors, therapists, social workers, everyone assumes that kids are being rushed toward "a good start in school," and that involves having their pointy parts sanded down so they will seem either average or better than average.
>
> Dealing with a professional who understands the advantages of homeschooling opens up a big alternate universe, just about.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Meredith
chris ester <chris.homeschool@...> wrote:
There was a radio article on NPR a couple days ago about college commencement speeches and what people wish they'd been told. More than one person made a point that all that pushing kids to be ahead sets them up with the assumption they're more special than they really are - which makes job hunting harder and more discouraging.
Ray's already dealing with issues which I recall my art-student friends talking about when they were in grad school - issues of marketability and is it better to get a job "in your field" or a job which pays reasonably well and do art on the side. He's learning that with the luxury of being able to produce as much or as little work as he wants, knowing he has a place to live and food And he's getting to work/study with real life artisans and see how they support themselves, how that all works out in real life. In real life, even very special artists do a surprising amount of low-talent production work just to pay the bills. The local glass blower with artwork in the Smithsonian sells mostly xmas ornaments, and the celebrated wood-sculptor sells a whole lot of cutting boards.
---Meredith
>All of these artificialNot a positive difference, anyway. Negative difference, yes, lots and lots.
> measures of success --'ahead', 'behind'. Very rarely does any of this make
> a difference to a child's life in the long run.
There was a radio article on NPR a couple days ago about college commencement speeches and what people wish they'd been told. More than one person made a point that all that pushing kids to be ahead sets them up with the assumption they're more special than they really are - which makes job hunting harder and more discouraging.
Ray's already dealing with issues which I recall my art-student friends talking about when they were in grad school - issues of marketability and is it better to get a job "in your field" or a job which pays reasonably well and do art on the side. He's learning that with the luxury of being able to produce as much or as little work as he wants, knowing he has a place to live and food And he's getting to work/study with real life artisans and see how they support themselves, how that all works out in real life. In real life, even very special artists do a surprising amount of low-talent production work just to pay the bills. The local glass blower with artwork in the Smithsonian sells mostly xmas ornaments, and the celebrated wood-sculptor sells a whole lot of cutting boards.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'd also point out I work with kids like the child in question. Guess what? Speech 3 or 4 times a week, and they still don't talk after years of this. -=-
They still don't talk, but they've been labelled and assured (on a schedule, 3 or 4 times a week) that there's something VERY Wrong with them.
Also, if someone does want speech therapy, there's an unschooling mom in India who trained and lived in Portland (I think), who looks like Geena Davis, is quick, sweet and enthusiastic, and who does therapy by skype, mornings U.S. time, nighttime in Pune where she lives. I can get people in contact with her. She's not a mandatory reporter in any jurisdiction outside of India (and probably not there, as they don't have compulsory attendance laws--that's all taken care of by in-laws and grandparents in India. :-)
When Holly was the every-day, 40+ hours a week, Pushpa (the speech therapist mom in India) had offered to advise Holly because the girl had speech issues. But Holly hadn't been able to pronounce "r" until she herself was 8 or 9, so she was in favor of not pressing. But finally one day Pushpa and Holly spoke about the situation. I was there with Holly. By asking Holly questions about how the girl drew, and Holly told her about how she bowled (needed a ramp) and I told about when we cut gallon-sized plastic milk jugs with swords at a gathering here that she could only get the sword to the surface of the plastic and push the thing over, really, while others were slicing right through it... those and some other stories and explanations, and Pushpa said it was a kind of autism that involves muscle tone, too. And the more Pushpa explained, the more it sounded just exactly like the girl's dad, whose movements and abilities are also unusual.
But both of them are functioning and interesting and have friends and hobbies and places in them where they're competent and solid. Partly that's because no one has told the girl there is anything wrong with her. She long, long years of uninterrupted growing at her own speed, thanks to unschooling, so the dad wasn't stressed about problems with his only child, and she wasn't stressed either.
Here are some photos of the water cutting. Holly's once-charge child is in the blue. in one of the small photos, sleeves lighter than the blue dress she's wearing over patterned blue jeans. That's my son Marty in the video image and on the side in the shirt with the skull design (I forget the name of that shirt/image--a band, I think).
http://monkeyplatterfestival.blogspot.com/2009/11/cutting-water-ongoing.html
Sandra
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They still don't talk, but they've been labelled and assured (on a schedule, 3 or 4 times a week) that there's something VERY Wrong with them.
Also, if someone does want speech therapy, there's an unschooling mom in India who trained and lived in Portland (I think), who looks like Geena Davis, is quick, sweet and enthusiastic, and who does therapy by skype, mornings U.S. time, nighttime in Pune where she lives. I can get people in contact with her. She's not a mandatory reporter in any jurisdiction outside of India (and probably not there, as they don't have compulsory attendance laws--that's all taken care of by in-laws and grandparents in India. :-)
When Holly was the every-day, 40+ hours a week, Pushpa (the speech therapist mom in India) had offered to advise Holly because the girl had speech issues. But Holly hadn't been able to pronounce "r" until she herself was 8 or 9, so she was in favor of not pressing. But finally one day Pushpa and Holly spoke about the situation. I was there with Holly. By asking Holly questions about how the girl drew, and Holly told her about how she bowled (needed a ramp) and I told about when we cut gallon-sized plastic milk jugs with swords at a gathering here that she could only get the sword to the surface of the plastic and push the thing over, really, while others were slicing right through it... those and some other stories and explanations, and Pushpa said it was a kind of autism that involves muscle tone, too. And the more Pushpa explained, the more it sounded just exactly like the girl's dad, whose movements and abilities are also unusual.
But both of them are functioning and interesting and have friends and hobbies and places in them where they're competent and solid. Partly that's because no one has told the girl there is anything wrong with her. She long, long years of uninterrupted growing at her own speed, thanks to unschooling, so the dad wasn't stressed about problems with his only child, and she wasn't stressed either.
Here are some photos of the water cutting. Holly's once-charge child is in the blue. in one of the small photos, sleeves lighter than the blue dress she's wearing over patterned blue jeans. That's my son Marty in the video image and on the side in the shirt with the skull design (I forget the name of that shirt/image--a band, I think).
http://monkeyplatterfestival.blogspot.com/2009/11/cutting-water-ongoing.html
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-While it's true that some kids may not "talk" even after years of therapy---some people Never learn to speak---there is no way to predict that. Even for the evaluators and therapists who've spent lots of time in person with a child, and who have experience with lots of other children and adults with similar diagnoses, there is no way to predict how that child is going to progress with their speech. -=-
True.
And just as schools take credit for every child who learns to read after the age of five, the speech therapist assigned to a chid who was NOT a person who would never learn to speak, gets credit because he was 'in speech therapy' when he started speaking.
It's another way to make the child feel powerless, in some cases, or to think he needs MORE professional help.
When children are in school when they learn to read, they and their parents and the teachers pretty much think they would not have learned to read if they had not been in school.
Unschoolers have seen kids learn to read without school.
Most people haven't.
Only those who don't use speech therapists will have seen kids learn to speak without speech therapy.
Sandra
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True.
And just as schools take credit for every child who learns to read after the age of five, the speech therapist assigned to a chid who was NOT a person who would never learn to speak, gets credit because he was 'in speech therapy' when he started speaking.
It's another way to make the child feel powerless, in some cases, or to think he needs MORE professional help.
When children are in school when they learn to read, they and their parents and the teachers pretty much think they would not have learned to read if they had not been in school.
Unschoolers have seen kids learn to read without school.
Most people haven't.
Only those who don't use speech therapists will have seen kids learn to speak without speech therapy.
Sandra
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Robin Bentley
> If so, there is a wonderful book called 'The Einstein Syndrome' byI read "Late Talking Children" by Thomas Sowell (which has maybe been
> Thomas Sowell, which addresses the idea of late-talking as related
> to autism. Or rather how it is also often not related. He talks
> about speech therapists at length, and early intervention (and he is
> very wary of both). Five is not uncommon a age for classic late-
> talkers (especially boys) to start talking, from what I remember. He
> uses the idea of a 'late-talker' to describe a child who talks later
> than their peers, and there are a few other shared traits, often
> causing the child to be misdiagnosed.
renamed?) because Senna was a late talker. She had her own sign
language and communicated effectively, but didn't use a lot of words
well into her 3rd and even 4th year. It definitely helped calm any
fears I had; his book did tend to focus on boys, but the same things
applied to my daughter. My La Leche League leader was also very calm
and supportive about being patient and not to intervene aggressively.
I've mentioned before what we did in these terms: "we bathed her in
words". We talked to her, we read to her, we had the radio or tv on.
We didn't worry or label or consult anyone. At 17 (and long, long
before now) Senna talks just fine. And sometimes barely stops for a
breath!
> We read the book, consulted the Camaratas remotely and also talkedIt's true about England. My English dad was a late talker and when he
> to some Drs in England, where the idea of a child talking later was
> not considered such a big deal.
did talk, he couldn't say the "st" sound. Here, they would be
recommending all sorts of early intervention and speech therapy for
him. Eeek! My dad was a very well-spoken commanding officer in the
Navy. For him and for Senna, it was time, opportunity and patience.
Robin B.
keetry
==Only those who don't use speech therapists will have seen kids learn to speak without speech therapy.==
It is so interesting that this comes up now because I've been getting questions about my almost 5 year old. He's hard to understand. Me and my 8 year old are the only people who can really understand him consistently and we still have trouble sometimes. He can't pronounce letters in the back of the throat, like K and G. He still uses D and T sounds. He sometimes makes a W sounds instead of R or L. He drops the S in front of words, so he says "top" instead of "stop".
My father in law and a few acquaintances and strangers have made comments, asked if he was in speech therapy. Interestingly, neither of my parents have said anything about it and both of them used to be teachers.
I admit that I have been getting a little more concerned about it. I don't want him to be at a disadvantage when he's older because he doesn't speak clearly. But I don't want to put him in speech therapy because I don't want to send him the message that there is something wrong with him. I also don't want to get into the whole reward/punishment/star collecting type dynamic.
I only know one child that I am aware of who goes to speech therapy. He's been going since his 2nd year (1st grade) in school so a little over 2 years now. I haven't noticed any appreciable difference that couldn't just be from time and maturation. Of course, there's no way to know with him since he's been in therapy.
My point is that, in my limited experience, I haven't noticed that therapy helps any more than time and I'm concerned that putting children in therapy may be harmful. So, I won't put my child in speech therapy. I'm choosing to let him be who he is.
Alysia
It is so interesting that this comes up now because I've been getting questions about my almost 5 year old. He's hard to understand. Me and my 8 year old are the only people who can really understand him consistently and we still have trouble sometimes. He can't pronounce letters in the back of the throat, like K and G. He still uses D and T sounds. He sometimes makes a W sounds instead of R or L. He drops the S in front of words, so he says "top" instead of "stop".
My father in law and a few acquaintances and strangers have made comments, asked if he was in speech therapy. Interestingly, neither of my parents have said anything about it and both of them used to be teachers.
I admit that I have been getting a little more concerned about it. I don't want him to be at a disadvantage when he's older because he doesn't speak clearly. But I don't want to put him in speech therapy because I don't want to send him the message that there is something wrong with him. I also don't want to get into the whole reward/punishment/star collecting type dynamic.
I only know one child that I am aware of who goes to speech therapy. He's been going since his 2nd year (1st grade) in school so a little over 2 years now. I haven't noticed any appreciable difference that couldn't just be from time and maturation. Of course, there's no way to know with him since he's been in therapy.
My point is that, in my limited experience, I haven't noticed that therapy helps any more than time and I'm concerned that putting children in therapy may be harmful. So, I won't put my child in speech therapy. I'm choosing to let him be who he is.
Alysia
K Pennell
And the kids in speech who never talk? It certainly isn't the fault of the therapists.
Now, I don't think it IS, but it's interesting that we are happy to take credit, but only assign blame to others.
Now, I don't think it IS, but it's interesting that we are happy to take credit, but only assign blame to others.
--- On Fri, 5/4/12, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Deflecting others need to save my son.
To: [email protected]
Date: Friday, May 4, 2012, 10:33 AM
-=-While it's true that some kids may not "talk" even after years of therapy---some people Never learn to speak---there is no way to predict that. Even for the evaluators and therapists who've spent lots of time in person with a child, and who have experience with lots of other children and adults with similar diagnoses, there is no way to predict how that child is going to progress with their speech. -=-
True.
And just as schools take credit for every child who learns to read after the age of five, the speech therapist assigned to a chid who was NOT a person who would never learn to speak, gets credit because he was 'in speech therapy' when he started speaking.
It's another way to make the child feel powerless, in some cases, or to think he needs MORE professional help.
When children are in school when they learn to read, they and their parents and the teachers pretty much think they would not have learned to read if they had not been in school.
Unschoolers have seen kids learn to read without school.
Most people haven't.
Only those who don't use speech therapists will have seen kids learn to speak without speech therapy.
Sandra
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Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"keetry" <keetry@...> wrote:
His mouth may still be developing - it's a physical problem, like being too short, one most kids grow out of, although not all kids are the same height at the same ages. That's one of the reasons speech therapy is ineffective - it asks kids to do something they're physically not ready to do.
It may be helpful to know that if a child can't make one sound he or she will often do a string of substitutions to accommodate - generally they develop a strategy based on how the sound is formed in the mouth and shift sounds based on position. So if a child is using d for k, he might them use l for d and then w for l - which is baffling to adults because obviously he can make Most of the right sounds, he's just putting them in the "wrong" places. Once he's developmentally able to make the "missing" sounds, the whole string falls into place and all the sounds go back where they "belong".
Even if he were to hold on to speech differences as a habit, once he has the physical maturity he has a muuuuch better chance of changing that habit, should he choose to do so. Since he's not in school, you're not dealing with the need to get him services to keep him from being labeled as something even less desirable (a behavior problem!).
---Meredith
>> He can't pronounce letters in the back of the throat, like K and G. He still uses D and T sounds. He sometimes makes a W sounds instead of R or L. He drops the S in front of words, so he says "top" instead of "stop".***************
His mouth may still be developing - it's a physical problem, like being too short, one most kids grow out of, although not all kids are the same height at the same ages. That's one of the reasons speech therapy is ineffective - it asks kids to do something they're physically not ready to do.
It may be helpful to know that if a child can't make one sound he or she will often do a string of substitutions to accommodate - generally they develop a strategy based on how the sound is formed in the mouth and shift sounds based on position. So if a child is using d for k, he might them use l for d and then w for l - which is baffling to adults because obviously he can make Most of the right sounds, he's just putting them in the "wrong" places. Once he's developmentally able to make the "missing" sounds, the whole string falls into place and all the sounds go back where they "belong".
>>I don't want him to be at a disadvantage when he's older because he doesn't speak clearly.****************
Even if he were to hold on to speech differences as a habit, once he has the physical maturity he has a muuuuch better chance of changing that habit, should he choose to do so. Since he's not in school, you're not dealing with the need to get him services to keep him from being labeled as something even less desirable (a behavior problem!).
---Meredith
lalow
Im a speech therapist. Ive never sent my own kids to speech therapy. They all have varrying degrees of difficulties with sounds. You can play games with him to get the k and g sounds. If he gets those your ability to understand him will improve dramtically. I agree that alot of improvement in speech can be purely maturational. As a therapist im not a typical chart and sticker one anyway. I do think ive helped a few kids through therapy, but ive never doubted that a few minutes playing with mom or dad wouldnt be a better use of their time.
--- In [email protected], "keetry" <keetry@...> wrote:
>
> ==Only those who don't use speech therapists will have seen kids learn to speak without speech therapy.==
>
> It is so interesting that this comes up now because I've been getting questions about my almost 5 year old. He's hard to understand. Me and my 8 year old are the only people who can really understand him consistently and we still have trouble sometimes. He can't pronounce letters in the back of the throat, like K and G. He still uses D and T sounds. He sometimes makes a W sounds instead of R or L. He drops the S in front of words, so he says "top" instead of "stop".
>
> My father in law and a few acquaintances and strangers have made comments, asked if he was in speech therapy. Interestingly, neither of my parents have said anything about it and both of them used to be teachers.
>
> I admit that I have been getting a little more concerned about it. I don't want him to be at a disadvantage when he's older because he doesn't speak clearly. But I don't want to put him in speech therapy because I don't want to send him the message that there is something wrong with him. I also don't want to get into the whole reward/punishment/star collecting type dynamic.
>
> I only know one child that I am aware of who goes to speech therapy. He's been going since his 2nd year (1st grade) in school so a little over 2 years now. I haven't noticed any appreciable difference that couldn't just be from time and maturation. Of course, there's no way to know with him since he's been in therapy.
>
> My point is that, in my limited experience, I haven't noticed that therapy helps any more than time and I'm concerned that putting children in therapy may be harmful. So, I won't put my child in speech therapy. I'm choosing to let him be who he is.
>
> Alysia
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Ray's already dealing with issues which I recall my art-student friends talking about when they were in grad school --=-
And without student loans to pay off, I'm guessing.
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And without student loans to pay off, I'm guessing.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
maryann
I haven't worked as a speech therapist for 6 years, since my son was born, and I'm not sure to what extent I'll ever go back to it. But, I Adored being with the kids, and I worked hard to make sure they had fun too. They don't always hate it or associate it with having things wrong with them, especially if it's play-based. As far as school goes, it can be like art or gym class, except it's individualized. :) Not always, of course.
In schools, teachers want articulation therapy for kids in order to be understood and in order to keep the sound issues from interfering with their reading. Many parents want free therapy, and want to help their kids avoid being teased. (Quite a few parents get upset when they ask for therapy and are told that their child doesn't qualify because schools want to give them a chance to grow out of it, as most kids do.) If they are special-ed, they are "entitled" to services, and most parents want all they can get. If the kids need help learning alternative communication, a therapist can be a great resource for the child and the parent, to learn to use signs, pictures, etc. to communicate, to learn ways to play that help encourage language, etc.
As I see it, the difference with unschooling is that there isn't a push to get kids to communicate without parents interpreting, or to get kids to read, or worry as much about teasing. So there is no need to seek out therapy *just* because there is a developmental "delay". Speech therapists can be a resource, like any other resource, though. If a child is frustrated with not being able to communicate or old enough to notice differences in their speech and want to focus on articulation (being able to produce a certain sounds) then there are resources available. Parents can seek out people and books and ideas for helping their child with their communication just as they would help them with learning any other skill they wanted to learn, like taking martial arts class or gymnastics, or painting. Another adult with knowledge and experience is not a *given*, but not always against unschooling, either.
maryann
In schools, teachers want articulation therapy for kids in order to be understood and in order to keep the sound issues from interfering with their reading. Many parents want free therapy, and want to help their kids avoid being teased. (Quite a few parents get upset when they ask for therapy and are told that their child doesn't qualify because schools want to give them a chance to grow out of it, as most kids do.) If they are special-ed, they are "entitled" to services, and most parents want all they can get. If the kids need help learning alternative communication, a therapist can be a great resource for the child and the parent, to learn to use signs, pictures, etc. to communicate, to learn ways to play that help encourage language, etc.
As I see it, the difference with unschooling is that there isn't a push to get kids to communicate without parents interpreting, or to get kids to read, or worry as much about teasing. So there is no need to seek out therapy *just* because there is a developmental "delay". Speech therapists can be a resource, like any other resource, though. If a child is frustrated with not being able to communicate or old enough to notice differences in their speech and want to focus on articulation (being able to produce a certain sounds) then there are resources available. Parents can seek out people and books and ideas for helping their child with their communication just as they would help them with learning any other skill they wanted to learn, like taking martial arts class or gymnastics, or painting. Another adult with knowledge and experience is not a *given*, but not always against unschooling, either.
maryann
Sandra Dodd
-=It is so interesting that this comes up now because I've been getting questions about my almost 5 year old. He's hard to understand. Me and my 8 year old are the only people who can really understand him consistently and we still have trouble sometimes. He can't pronounce letters in the back of the throat, like K and G. He still uses D and T sounds. He sometimes makes a W sounds instead of R or L. He drops the S in front of words, so he says "top" instead of "stop".-=-
Kirby was that way, and so would tell people his name was "Tirby."
A friend of ours (the same one in the story from the other day about me getting so angry--totally unrelated to this story, except the same person) was at a playground one day and asked a little girl her name. The girl said "Tourtney." And because my friend knew Kirby and the way he pronounced his name, she said "Courtney?" And she said the little girl just lit up in a big smile and said yes, and then beamed even brighter while she was still smiling. It seemed to be the first time a stranger had understood her. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kirby was that way, and so would tell people his name was "Tirby."
A friend of ours (the same one in the story from the other day about me getting so angry--totally unrelated to this story, except the same person) was at a playground one day and asked a little girl her name. The girl said "Tourtney." And because my friend knew Kirby and the way he pronounced his name, she said "Courtney?" And she said the little girl just lit up in a big smile and said yes, and then beamed even brighter while she was still smiling. It seemed to be the first time a stranger had understood her. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
maryann
--- In [email protected], K Pennell <mrsringsabre@...> wrote:
I wouldn't speak for all therapists, especially since I've turned to unschooling!! ;) But, just like all teachers aren't "bad" there are certainly other therapists like I was who consider it a privilege to witness the amazing progress all kids make as they learn and grow. And many kids who are getting speech/language services in school would be doing worse in school without that support.
maryann
>Well, "talking" isn't always the goal...The teachers and therapists should be able to show progress in communicating, or else, yes they are blamed for not helping the child make progress. At the very least, they should be observing the child attentively enough to see natural progress and note it.
> And the kids in speech who never talk? It certainly isn't the fault of the therapists.
> Now, I don't think it IS, but it's interesting that we are happy to take credit, but only assign blame to others.
>>>>>>>>
I wouldn't speak for all therapists, especially since I've turned to unschooling!! ;) But, just like all teachers aren't "bad" there are certainly other therapists like I was who consider it a privilege to witness the amazing progress all kids make as they learn and grow. And many kids who are getting speech/language services in school would be doing worse in school without that support.
maryann
Sandra Dodd
-=They don't always hate it or associate it with having things wrong with them, especially if it's play-based. As far as school goes, it can be like art or gym class, except it's individualized. :) -=-
Not if they're already in school, maybe. Unless the other kids were teasing them for not speaking plainly, and then tease them for being in special ed (depending how it's handled).
In school, art and gym can get you away from sitting at a desk, so play-based therapy would be more fun that sit-and-repeat-after-me therapy, but for an unschooled kid, being sent to a specialist would be more like going to school than like getting out of school, potentially.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Not if they're already in school, maybe. Unless the other kids were teasing them for not speaking plainly, and then tease them for being in special ed (depending how it's handled).
In school, art and gym can get you away from sitting at a desk, so play-based therapy would be more fun that sit-and-repeat-after-me therapy, but for an unschooled kid, being sent to a specialist would be more like going to school than like getting out of school, potentially.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-And many kids who are getting speech/language services in school would be doing worse in school without that support.-=-
Probably so.
But those experts, that school, and those kids are probably unfamiliar with unschooling.
The goal of unschooling isn't to "stay on track," to "keep up," or to get good grades, and that changes everything.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Probably so.
But those experts, that school, and those kids are probably unfamiliar with unschooling.
The goal of unschooling isn't to "stay on track," to "keep up," or to get good grades, and that changes everything.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
maryann
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Working in schools with kids in special-ed really primed me to be drawn to unschooling. I saw the way kids struggled to follow schedules and struggle to 'behave appropriately' in a setting that was not designed with them in mind. It was sad and frustrating, and later reading John Holt, etc., I felt even sadder thinking of many specific examples of kids who had had such a hard time at school, knowing there were alternatives. But those kids do not have a choice. Most parents are not willing or able to homeschool. They Want experts to help them with their children. Parents in the recent past have fought for their kids with disabilities to have the right to go to school, and get services, and many of them are really defensive of that.
So if the kids have to be there, I do think it's helpful for them to get all the help and support they can get. "Speech therapy" for them usually involves helping with functional communication, not the old-fashioned sitting at a desk with a lady saying "Say cat" over and over in a sing-song voice. Maybe that still happens somewhere, but that is not the current standard. "Speech" has evolved to include language and any form of communication, including social, especially since children with all severities of disabilities are now integrated into regular school buildings and regular classrooms as much as possible.
To me, unschooling seems *ideal* for children with any sort of disability, IF (big if) their parents are interested, willing and available to do it. If not, they will be in school. If they are far from "typical", the one way that they might have an advantage over a typical student is they get to have their own individualized curriculum and a team of professionals who are paid specifically to look out for them and support them however needed.
But, yes, it's not unschooling. At all.
If parents are willing and able to unschool, kids can thrive, even those with severe language delays, even without any therapy. I have seen this, and it is beautiful! :)
Unschooling parents seek out resources for whatever their children are interested in, want or need. I think consulting with a speech/language pathologist can be included in those resources if it is what the children want and are interested in, when the time is right for the child. It would NOT be a good unschooling resource if it were sought out just because it's what the neighbor or aunt thinks the child should be doing.
maryann
former speech therapist
>Yes, I agree with this. By "would be doing worse in school" I was thinking of having a harder time being there and a harder time functioning, not having worse grades. I was thinking of more involved kids where grades aren't even considered. Kids in school with severe speech/language challenges (such as late-talking, nonverbal kids, like in the original post) can benefit from support for their communication differences in doing the things they need to do to be there, in the school building, without their parents. If they can be helped to communicate a little more independently, (by helping them learn to point to what they want to eat or play with, for example, or learn a way to communicate "get away from me" that doesn't involve hitting or biting) they can navigate a little less stressfully in a pretty stressful situation that they don't have a choice but go to every day.
> -=-And many kids who are getting speech/language services in school would be doing worse in school without that support.-=-
>
> Probably so.
> But those experts, that school, and those kids are probably unfamiliar with unschooling.
>
> The goal of unschooling isn't to "stay on track," to "keep up," or to get good grades, and that changes everything.
>
> Sandra
>>>>>>>>>>
Working in schools with kids in special-ed really primed me to be drawn to unschooling. I saw the way kids struggled to follow schedules and struggle to 'behave appropriately' in a setting that was not designed with them in mind. It was sad and frustrating, and later reading John Holt, etc., I felt even sadder thinking of many specific examples of kids who had had such a hard time at school, knowing there were alternatives. But those kids do not have a choice. Most parents are not willing or able to homeschool. They Want experts to help them with their children. Parents in the recent past have fought for their kids with disabilities to have the right to go to school, and get services, and many of them are really defensive of that.
So if the kids have to be there, I do think it's helpful for them to get all the help and support they can get. "Speech therapy" for them usually involves helping with functional communication, not the old-fashioned sitting at a desk with a lady saying "Say cat" over and over in a sing-song voice. Maybe that still happens somewhere, but that is not the current standard. "Speech" has evolved to include language and any form of communication, including social, especially since children with all severities of disabilities are now integrated into regular school buildings and regular classrooms as much as possible.
To me, unschooling seems *ideal* for children with any sort of disability, IF (big if) their parents are interested, willing and available to do it. If not, they will be in school. If they are far from "typical", the one way that they might have an advantage over a typical student is they get to have their own individualized curriculum and a team of professionals who are paid specifically to look out for them and support them however needed.
But, yes, it's not unschooling. At all.
If parents are willing and able to unschool, kids can thrive, even those with severe language delays, even without any therapy. I have seen this, and it is beautiful! :)
Unschooling parents seek out resources for whatever their children are interested in, want or need. I think consulting with a speech/language pathologist can be included in those resources if it is what the children want and are interested in, when the time is right for the child. It would NOT be a good unschooling resource if it were sought out just because it's what the neighbor or aunt thinks the child should be doing.
maryann
former speech therapist
chris ester
On Fri, May 4, 2012 at 8:35 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
is why it is so great to have this discussion list. It takes the 'freak'
factor out of unschooling, especially when you feel like the only person in
a 50 mile radius who trusts their children to grow and learn everyday
without force and manipulation.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **many of my friends (many of whom are social workers and teachers). Which
>
>
> >>>>The goal of unschooling isn't to "stay on track," to "keep up," or to
> get good grades, and that changes everything.<<<<
>
> Exactly! And this is why so I feel as though I am speaking Martian to so
is why it is so great to have this discussion list. It takes the 'freak'
factor out of unschooling, especially when you feel like the only person in
a 50 mile radius who trusts their children to grow and learn everyday
without force and manipulation.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
keetry
==His mouth may still be developing <snip> That's one of the reasons speech therapy is ineffective - it asks kids to do something they're physically not ready to do.==
This is what I assume. He was a late talker compared to my other kids (probably not technically a late talker). He didn't really start talking until he was around 2. I started to get a little worried but now he won't stop talking a lot of the time. :)
He also still uses "me" instead of "I". I figure he'll get it when he's ready.
==Even if he were to hold on to speech differences as a habit, once he has the physical maturity he has a muuuuch better chance of changing that habit, should he choose to do so.==
This is the thing that I guess has been worrying me about him getting older and still doing it. Just about everyone else says that he'll never learn to speak clearly if he doesn't get early intervention. Since I don't know anyone who didn't have EI and eventually started speaking clear enough that strangers could understand, I don't really have a counter for that (in my own head).
Alysia
This is what I assume. He was a late talker compared to my other kids (probably not technically a late talker). He didn't really start talking until he was around 2. I started to get a little worried but now he won't stop talking a lot of the time. :)
He also still uses "me" instead of "I". I figure he'll get it when he's ready.
==Even if he were to hold on to speech differences as a habit, once he has the physical maturity he has a muuuuch better chance of changing that habit, should he choose to do so.==
This is the thing that I guess has been worrying me about him getting older and still doing it. Just about everyone else says that he'll never learn to speak clearly if he doesn't get early intervention. Since I don't know anyone who didn't have EI and eventually started speaking clear enough that strangers could understand, I don't really have a counter for that (in my own head).
Alysia
draconi_ann
I have a 19 year old son that didn't speak any understandable words until he was over 3. Everyone was quite alarmed and he was my first child so we began speech interventions when he was around 2.5. His first word after months of this was "mama". He was a premie and had developmental delays and everyone told me that if we didn't get him help early he would always have issues. So, we bowed to pressure and began what ended up being about 4 years of therapy.
My second child, a now almost 12 year old girl, spoke early, often and clear enough for anyone to understand her. I was relieved. As a child I had had speech therapy, though we were told at the time that it was because my adoptive mother was Filipina and I had picked up her accent. There had been some concern expressed with my son that perhaps my own speech issues were genetic and my children would be more likely to have issues.
Then I had my third child. He was very much like his older brother but without the developmental delays. We had trouble understanding him for a long time. And everyone else couldn't understand almost anything he said for a few years. But this time we didn't seek therapy. We hoped this time that he would outgrow it. We weren't convinced that our older son's speech had improved because of his years of therapy. We handled things completely different with our youngest son. We didn't point out or correct him every time he mispronounced anything and we quickly interpreted what he was saying so others could understand him in an effort to make it a non-issue. He was completely understood by strangers by the time he was 6 (pretty close to the same time our older son was).
So, based on my own anecdotal evidence, I would agree that perhaps in some cases therapy may be necessary but in our experience (which is very similar to most of the speech delays I've seen) time, support and understanding are just as helpful.
~Michelle
My second child, a now almost 12 year old girl, spoke early, often and clear enough for anyone to understand her. I was relieved. As a child I had had speech therapy, though we were told at the time that it was because my adoptive mother was Filipina and I had picked up her accent. There had been some concern expressed with my son that perhaps my own speech issues were genetic and my children would be more likely to have issues.
Then I had my third child. He was very much like his older brother but without the developmental delays. We had trouble understanding him for a long time. And everyone else couldn't understand almost anything he said for a few years. But this time we didn't seek therapy. We hoped this time that he would outgrow it. We weren't convinced that our older son's speech had improved because of his years of therapy. We handled things completely different with our youngest son. We didn't point out or correct him every time he mispronounced anything and we quickly interpreted what he was saying so others could understand him in an effort to make it a non-issue. He was completely understood by strangers by the time he was 6 (pretty close to the same time our older son was).
So, based on my own anecdotal evidence, I would agree that perhaps in some cases therapy may be necessary but in our experience (which is very similar to most of the speech delays I've seen) time, support and understanding are just as helpful.
~Michelle
Vicki Dennis
In case anecdotes will help :-). Or at least reassure you.
My now 32 year old oldest (who it turns out actually does have some nerve
deafness issues) did not "speak English" until he was past three. We
worried about his hearing as an infant for several reasons (including
genetic) so at age 2 had him tested at a regional speech and hearing
center. Their diagnosis was that though he had some mild hearing lack of
high frequencies it should not affect the conversational range. 30 years
ago both the technology as well as knowledge about conversational sounds
was different than today!. His speech eval showed a passive language of
well past 4 years but an active language of 8 months. They recommended
extensive therapy but because we lived in a rural area nearly 3 hours away
it was recognized that 3-5 days a week was an impossibility. I did make
some trips to a different regional center a little over an hour another
direction from us and they were going to come up with a home program for us
to do. But I did not agree at all with the first directives they suggested
and by the time weeks later that they mailed out a home program he had
started talking in sentences. (about age 2 years, 6 months) No one could
understand him except the family until he was about 5 and even at 7 and 8
his speech was a little "funny". I might not have even done the initial
evaluations but he was very frustrated with not being able to communicate
with others.
You can hear him speak now at
http://www.datastax.com/2011/07/video-data-modeling-workshop-from-cassandra-sf-2011
or google Matt Dennis Oscon for various videos.
He talks way too fast for me but I don't think anyone would suggest that
the lack of extensive speech therapy prevented him from ever learning to
communicate orally in English!.
His children would have been considered late talkers with enunciation
problems. His daughter was very patient in trying to train adults to
understand her. Her speech started clearning about age 4 and now at 6 1/2
years she can wear you out with extensive conversation and very "advanced"
vocabulary. My biased grandma view is that she speaks clearer than the
"baby" talk of many 6 year olds. I will add that strangers always think
she is older and express surprise at both her speech and vocabulary.
We say that his 4 year old son doesn't have many consonants yet. He has a
lot to say and does not feel damaged that many people don't understand him
yet. Also, he uses "my" consistently as a substitute for either "me" or
"I". We figure he will get the grammar on that eventually but consider
his solution rather clever. A few people have asked if his parents have
considered speech therapy (even ones who were fine when he was 2 and 3 are
getting very impatient now) but, fortunately, at least in my opinion, my
daughter-in-law is comfortable with waiting much longer. Especially since
he is usually able to eventually get his point across and is not constantly
frustrated. I suppose if either of them were in daycare or school the
pressure would be much greater.
My brother and I both had speech therapy as children. My brother at the
Callier Center in Dallas where we lived, and me at public school starting
in first grade. (No kindergarten back then!). Speech therapy in the early
grades was not very useful for me......I had a lisp plus a total inability
to enunciate the "r" sound at the end of a syllable. At the beginning of
syllables I compensated with my lips instead of my tongue. But the group
speech sessions I had did not provide me with any tools to change. I
stopped after about 3rd grade. Around 6th grade, the school officials
set me back up with some sessions after I was to represent the school in
Spelling Bee but they were afraid that judges unfamiliar with my speech
would not understand me. Those sessions were more helpful since they
provided techniques and explained mechanics but I spent months being aware
of how I placed my tongue in everyday conversation!
My brother and I both have some speech eccentricities. Who knows whether
they would be better or worse depending on how much speech therapy. If
you listen to Matt he also has some speech differences (particularly for a
homegrown Texas boy!) but I really don't think a lack of speech therapy
harmed him!
Vicki
My now 32 year old oldest (who it turns out actually does have some nerve
deafness issues) did not "speak English" until he was past three. We
worried about his hearing as an infant for several reasons (including
genetic) so at age 2 had him tested at a regional speech and hearing
center. Their diagnosis was that though he had some mild hearing lack of
high frequencies it should not affect the conversational range. 30 years
ago both the technology as well as knowledge about conversational sounds
was different than today!. His speech eval showed a passive language of
well past 4 years but an active language of 8 months. They recommended
extensive therapy but because we lived in a rural area nearly 3 hours away
it was recognized that 3-5 days a week was an impossibility. I did make
some trips to a different regional center a little over an hour another
direction from us and they were going to come up with a home program for us
to do. But I did not agree at all with the first directives they suggested
and by the time weeks later that they mailed out a home program he had
started talking in sentences. (about age 2 years, 6 months) No one could
understand him except the family until he was about 5 and even at 7 and 8
his speech was a little "funny". I might not have even done the initial
evaluations but he was very frustrated with not being able to communicate
with others.
You can hear him speak now at
http://www.datastax.com/2011/07/video-data-modeling-workshop-from-cassandra-sf-2011
or google Matt Dennis Oscon for various videos.
He talks way too fast for me but I don't think anyone would suggest that
the lack of extensive speech therapy prevented him from ever learning to
communicate orally in English!.
His children would have been considered late talkers with enunciation
problems. His daughter was very patient in trying to train adults to
understand her. Her speech started clearning about age 4 and now at 6 1/2
years she can wear you out with extensive conversation and very "advanced"
vocabulary. My biased grandma view is that she speaks clearer than the
"baby" talk of many 6 year olds. I will add that strangers always think
she is older and express surprise at both her speech and vocabulary.
We say that his 4 year old son doesn't have many consonants yet. He has a
lot to say and does not feel damaged that many people don't understand him
yet. Also, he uses "my" consistently as a substitute for either "me" or
"I". We figure he will get the grammar on that eventually but consider
his solution rather clever. A few people have asked if his parents have
considered speech therapy (even ones who were fine when he was 2 and 3 are
getting very impatient now) but, fortunately, at least in my opinion, my
daughter-in-law is comfortable with waiting much longer. Especially since
he is usually able to eventually get his point across and is not constantly
frustrated. I suppose if either of them were in daycare or school the
pressure would be much greater.
My brother and I both had speech therapy as children. My brother at the
Callier Center in Dallas where we lived, and me at public school starting
in first grade. (No kindergarten back then!). Speech therapy in the early
grades was not very useful for me......I had a lisp plus a total inability
to enunciate the "r" sound at the end of a syllable. At the beginning of
syllables I compensated with my lips instead of my tongue. But the group
speech sessions I had did not provide me with any tools to change. I
stopped after about 3rd grade. Around 6th grade, the school officials
set me back up with some sessions after I was to represent the school in
Spelling Bee but they were afraid that judges unfamiliar with my speech
would not understand me. Those sessions were more helpful since they
provided techniques and explained mechanics but I spent months being aware
of how I placed my tongue in everyday conversation!
My brother and I both have some speech eccentricities. Who knows whether
they would be better or worse depending on how much speech therapy. If
you listen to Matt he also has some speech differences (particularly for a
homegrown Texas boy!) but I really don't think a lack of speech therapy
harmed him!
Vicki
On Sat, May 5, 2012 at 8:59 AM, keetry <keetry@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> ==His mouth may still be developing <snip> That's one of the reasons
> speech therapy is ineffective - it asks kids to do something they're
> physically not ready to do.==
>
> This is what I assume. He was a late talker compared to my other kids
> (probably not technically a late talker). He didn't really start talking
> until he was around 2. I started to get a little worried but now he won't
> stop talking a lot of the time. :)
>
> He also still uses "me" instead of "I". I figure he'll get it when he's
> ready.
>
> ==Even if he were to hold on to speech differences as a habit, once he has
> the physical maturity he has a muuuuch better chance of changing that
> habit, should he choose to do so.==
>
> This is the thing that I guess has been worrying me about him getting
> older and still doing it. Just about everyone else says that he'll never
> learn to speak clearly if he doesn't get early intervention. Since I don't
> know anyone who didn't have EI and eventually started speaking clear enough
> that strangers could understand, I don't really have a counter for that (in
> my own head).
>
> Alysia
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]