This article made me think of this list...
Bea
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/22/opinion/sunday/in-therapy-forever-enough-already.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1
The article is about therapy, but I think many of the points are relevant to the type of advice given on this list too.
"A recent study by the National Institute for Health and Welfare in Finland found that "active, engaging and extroverted therapists" helped patients more quickly in the short term than "cautious, nonintrusive therapists." "
(...)
"Popular misconceptions reinforce the belief that therapy is about resting on a couch and talking about one's problems. So that's what patients often do. And just as often this leads to codependence. The therapist, of course, depends on the patient for money, and the patient depends on the therapist for emotional support. And, for many therapy patients, it is satisfying just to have someone listen, and they leave sessions feeling better.
But there's a difference between feeling good and changing your life. Feeling accepted and validated by your therapist doesn't push you to reach your goals. To the contrary, it might even encourage you to stay mired in dysfunction. Therapy sessions can work like spa appointments: they can be relaxing but don't necessarily help solve problems. More than an oasis of kindness or a cozy hour of validation and acceptance, most patients need smart strategies to help them achieve realistic goals. "
The article is about therapy, but I think many of the points are relevant to the type of advice given on this list too.
"A recent study by the National Institute for Health and Welfare in Finland found that "active, engaging and extroverted therapists" helped patients more quickly in the short term than "cautious, nonintrusive therapists." "
(...)
"Popular misconceptions reinforce the belief that therapy is about resting on a couch and talking about one's problems. So that's what patients often do. And just as often this leads to codependence. The therapist, of course, depends on the patient for money, and the patient depends on the therapist for emotional support. And, for many therapy patients, it is satisfying just to have someone listen, and they leave sessions feeling better.
But there's a difference between feeling good and changing your life. Feeling accepted and validated by your therapist doesn't push you to reach your goals. To the contrary, it might even encourage you to stay mired in dysfunction. Therapy sessions can work like spa appointments: they can be relaxing but don't necessarily help solve problems. More than an oasis of kindness or a cozy hour of validation and acceptance, most patients need smart strategies to help them achieve realistic goals. "
mightylittledude
I have several thoughts about this article. One is the issue of developing trust. It can take years to develop enough trust to open up and discuss things which have been buried in layers of trauma or shame. Sadly, the very people who need light and understanding, are the ones who are the most reluctant to open up and talk, they feel the most shame, guilt, fear and isolation. And the subconscious is very good at burying these memories, and reluctant to air them.
I don't have time to say more, and wouldn't consider it terribly relevant to unschooling, but it is worth bearing in mind that aggressive and opinionated, reactive responses, or even assertive ones certainly have their place in life, but in my experience and knowledge of therapy, are counter-productive, and can ironically create yet more defensiveness. Which then leads to more isolation, and shame and unresolved guilt etc.
Cornelia
I don't have time to say more, and wouldn't consider it terribly relevant to unschooling, but it is worth bearing in mind that aggressive and opinionated, reactive responses, or even assertive ones certainly have their place in life, but in my experience and knowledge of therapy, are counter-productive, and can ironically create yet more defensiveness. Which then leads to more isolation, and shame and unresolved guilt etc.
Cornelia
Sandra Dodd
-=- One is the issue of developing trust. It can take years to develop enough trust to open up and discuss things which have been buried in layers of trauma or shame.-=-
That's good for therapists' pocketbooks, I suppose, and doesn't really apply to this list/discussion.
-=-I don't have time to say more, and wouldn't consider it terribly relevant to unschooling, but it is worth bearing in mind that aggressive and opinionated, reactive responses, or even assertive ones certainly have their place in life, but in my experience and knowledge of therapy, are counter-productive, and can ironically create yet more defensiveness.-=-
And what IS relevant to unschooling in that is that any parent who is so wounded as to be unable to examine and reconsider, even in private, his or her own history and being will not be a good unschooling parent.
If we were teaching swimming to people who were afraid of the water, we couldn't give a guarantee that everyone who came along would be swimming. Some can't.
Some people can't unschool.
Anyone who goes away in a huff because they were expected to change, or expected to be honest, will probably fail at it anyway, and that's okay. There's a world of options, and unschooling is a very small part of the world. For those who want to unschooling *and* are able to do what it takes, it becomes a very big part (generally becomes all of) THEIR own world, but not everyone can dedicate their inner and outer lives to the project!
I can't swim. I'm not svelte and strong. I don't quilt, though I know how to. I don't ride a bike, although I did lots when I was younger, and potentially could. There are options and choices galore in the world, and not all roads lead to all destinations.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's good for therapists' pocketbooks, I suppose, and doesn't really apply to this list/discussion.
-=-I don't have time to say more, and wouldn't consider it terribly relevant to unschooling, but it is worth bearing in mind that aggressive and opinionated, reactive responses, or even assertive ones certainly have their place in life, but in my experience and knowledge of therapy, are counter-productive, and can ironically create yet more defensiveness.-=-
And what IS relevant to unschooling in that is that any parent who is so wounded as to be unable to examine and reconsider, even in private, his or her own history and being will not be a good unschooling parent.
If we were teaching swimming to people who were afraid of the water, we couldn't give a guarantee that everyone who came along would be swimming. Some can't.
Some people can't unschool.
Anyone who goes away in a huff because they were expected to change, or expected to be honest, will probably fail at it anyway, and that's okay. There's a world of options, and unschooling is a very small part of the world. For those who want to unschooling *and* are able to do what it takes, it becomes a very big part (generally becomes all of) THEIR own world, but not everyone can dedicate their inner and outer lives to the project!
I can't swim. I'm not svelte and strong. I don't quilt, though I know how to. I don't ride a bike, although I did lots when I was younger, and potentially could. There are options and choices galore in the world, and not all roads lead to all destinations.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 25, 2012, at 11:10 AM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
Water's good for everyone. But force feeding someone water everyday would be traumatizing.
Our society seems oriented towards finding The One Right Answer to problems. But no matter how great an approach is for people who enthusiastic about it, it's going to be less and less effective depending on how little someone wants to be a part of it. That's why forced drug rehabilitation doesn't have a great success rate. It's only going to work for people who are determined to make it work.
Choice and desire are pretty much at the core of whether something will work for someone. But those can't be controlled so it's not taken into consideration when looking for The One Right Answer.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> And what IS relevant to unschooling in that is that any parent who is so woundedAnd what's relevant to the list (as well as the therapy as well as children learning) is choosing to. While I do think self examination is necessary to get rid of baggage and grow, it won't work if it's forced on someone. If every unschooler were required to participate on this list, most of them would be miserable. No matter how helpful it is for people to face their demons it's less and less likely to work the more it's pressed on them against their wishes.
> as to be unable to examine and reconsider, even in private, his or her own history
> and being will not be a good unschooling parent.
Water's good for everyone. But force feeding someone water everyday would be traumatizing.
Our society seems oriented towards finding The One Right Answer to problems. But no matter how great an approach is for people who enthusiastic about it, it's going to be less and less effective depending on how little someone wants to be a part of it. That's why forced drug rehabilitation doesn't have a great success rate. It's only going to work for people who are determined to make it work.
Choice and desire are pretty much at the core of whether something will work for someone. But those can't be controlled so it's not taken into consideration when looking for The One Right Answer.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
> But there's a difference between feeling good and changing yourI think Bea is saying that this article reminds her of the difference
> life. Feeling accepted and validated by your therapist doesn't push
> you to reach your goals. To the contrary, it might even encourage
> you to stay mired in dysfunction. Therapy sessions can work like spa
> appointments: they can be relaxing but don't necessarily help solve
> problems. More than an oasis of kindness or a cozy hour of
> validation and acceptance, most patients need smart strategies to
> help them achieve realistic goals. "
>
between tea party advice and the advice on the list. In this case, it
would be "More than an oasis of kindness or a cozy hour of validation
and acceptance, most *parents* need smart strategies to help them
achieve realistic goals."
I did want to comment that I found it funny that this study was done
in Finland, generally a nation of taciturn introverts (based on
personal anecdotal evidence, of course <g>).
Robin B.
mightylittledude
"That's good for therapists' pocketbooks, I suppose, and doesn't really apply to
this list/discussion."
I think we are in agreement there about it not applying to this list/discussion. I didn't think that therapy was/is a good analogy. From what I see, this group intends to be direct and even confrontational when necessary. I understand that there is a desire to get straight to the point and help people be honest and see what they can't see. And not take weeks and weeks to achieve this. A desire to help people build fabulous, open relationships with their families. I, personally, have found Sandra's books and website completely revolutionary and liberating, and I am still learning (of course). I do think that this direct tone puts some people off opening up and/or participating, but I think you (Sandra) consider that worth the risk for maintaining the list in the way you think is the most effective and vital. And perhaps you think that avoidance of vibrant discussion is a red flag in terms of being able to unschool successfully. Which, I would agree, is something worth looking at.
I found the article crass and over-simplistic. If there is any relevance (in my mind) to unschooling, it would be to be open to the idea of looking at layers, beyond the superficial and immediate, and being open to the knowledge that there can be many levels to be explored and considered. By the way, I'm not directing that at anyone personally, I hope that is so obvious as to be understood. But it is difficult sometimes to read 'tone' online, so I am trying to be clear(er!). Nuances, and individuality play a huge part in the therapeutic process. I could go on exploring this, but like I said, it seems a little by-the-by. Although, oftentimes by-the-by can lead down wonderful paths. Again, valuable unschooling skills. But I don't really want to clog up your list with my own musings.
Perhaps it would have been more constructive if I had managed to write this post before the other one. But, ironically or not, I often find that untangling my thoughts and feelings takes several steps. Perhaps that is where this list and the therapeutic process overlap? The tweezing apart of thoughts and ideas. I would say that therapy needs a delicate touch, like treading amongst seedlings. This list (my own view of course) is more about blowing assumptions and habits wide open and exposing them for examination. The timeframe and intent and needs are different.
Its always food for thought for me. Whatever my response. And for that I am grateful.
Cornelia
this list/discussion."
I think we are in agreement there about it not applying to this list/discussion. I didn't think that therapy was/is a good analogy. From what I see, this group intends to be direct and even confrontational when necessary. I understand that there is a desire to get straight to the point and help people be honest and see what they can't see. And not take weeks and weeks to achieve this. A desire to help people build fabulous, open relationships with their families. I, personally, have found Sandra's books and website completely revolutionary and liberating, and I am still learning (of course). I do think that this direct tone puts some people off opening up and/or participating, but I think you (Sandra) consider that worth the risk for maintaining the list in the way you think is the most effective and vital. And perhaps you think that avoidance of vibrant discussion is a red flag in terms of being able to unschool successfully. Which, I would agree, is something worth looking at.
I found the article crass and over-simplistic. If there is any relevance (in my mind) to unschooling, it would be to be open to the idea of looking at layers, beyond the superficial and immediate, and being open to the knowledge that there can be many levels to be explored and considered. By the way, I'm not directing that at anyone personally, I hope that is so obvious as to be understood. But it is difficult sometimes to read 'tone' online, so I am trying to be clear(er!). Nuances, and individuality play a huge part in the therapeutic process. I could go on exploring this, but like I said, it seems a little by-the-by. Although, oftentimes by-the-by can lead down wonderful paths. Again, valuable unschooling skills. But I don't really want to clog up your list with my own musings.
Perhaps it would have been more constructive if I had managed to write this post before the other one. But, ironically or not, I often find that untangling my thoughts and feelings takes several steps. Perhaps that is where this list and the therapeutic process overlap? The tweezing apart of thoughts and ideas. I would say that therapy needs a delicate touch, like treading amongst seedlings. This list (my own view of course) is more about blowing assumptions and habits wide open and exposing them for examination. The timeframe and intent and needs are different.
Its always food for thought for me. Whatever my response. And for that I am grateful.
Cornelia
Sandra Dodd
-=-While I do think self examination is necessary to get rid of baggage and grow, it won't work if it's forced on someone-=-
True.
No one needs to share their self examination in public. :-)
But it's unreasonable to share some on this list and then insult those who write to discuss the issues and ideas presented.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
True.
No one needs to share their self examination in public. :-)
But it's unreasonable to share some on this list and then insult those who write to discuss the issues and ideas presented.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 10:36 AM, mightylittledude
<corneliablik@...>wrote:
feelings, getting defensive, feeling insulted -- but the understanding and
insights that can come out of taking that risk are huge.
I know someone I admire tremendously as a radically unschooling mom and she
loves Sandra's books and writings but she can't stand being on this list -
not even just reading -- because she feels frequently upset by how she
imagines others are reacting. It just so isn't her way of being in the
world - she's a person who is extremely protective of people's feelings. It
isn't "worth it" to her. She isn't resentful of the list - she doesn't
think we're bad people for loving the way this list is. She thinks it isn't
her cup of tea. So she learns about and deepens her own unschooling
competencies in other ways.
-pam
<corneliablik@...>wrote:
> >>>I do think that this direct tone puts some people off opening up and/orI've often said, 'It is worth it," meaning that there IS risk of hurt
> participating, but I think you (Sandra) consider that worth the risk.....>>>
feelings, getting defensive, feeling insulted -- but the understanding and
insights that can come out of taking that risk are huge.
I know someone I admire tremendously as a radically unschooling mom and she
loves Sandra's books and writings but she can't stand being on this list -
not even just reading -- because she feels frequently upset by how she
imagines others are reacting. It just so isn't her way of being in the
world - she's a person who is extremely protective of people's feelings. It
isn't "worth it" to her. She isn't resentful of the list - she doesn't
think we're bad people for loving the way this list is. She thinks it isn't
her cup of tea. So she learns about and deepens her own unschooling
competencies in other ways.
-pam
> . And perhaps you think that avoidance of vibrant discussion is a red flag[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> in terms of being able to unschool successfully. Which, I would agree, is
> something worth looking at.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I've often said, 'It is worth it," meaning that there IS risk of hurt
feelings, getting defensive, feeling insulted -- but the understanding and
insights that can come out of taking that risk are huge.
-=-I know someone I admire tremendously as a radically unschooling mom and she
loves Sandra's books and writings but she can't stand being on this list -
not even just reading -- because she feels frequently upset by how she
imagines others are reacting.-=-
Marty and Keith both "do SCA combat"--they have armor, and they practice weekly with rattan swords, hitting hard. They come home with bruises that look horrible to me. There are some people who don't have the pain threshhold these guys have, or who don't have the desire or experience the thrill of having tried their skills against someone who will play that hard.
Sometimes other people who don't even own armor will go into a rant about how people are hitting too hard, and it's a 'violent sport,' and that they should only touch each other and shouldn't be actually hitting, even on armor or well-padded great helms.
Maybe it would be like the difference between (American) football, or rugby, and playing flag football, where no one is really supposed to make bodily contact past maybe touching hands some, but not to run into anyone.
Some prefer one over the other. It doesn't make the more serious one evil.
When the goal is for a parent to understand how her ideas are preventing unschooling from working, I think of this: "I would say that therapy needs a delicate touch, like treading amongst seedlings."
And the delicate seedlings are the children. And if the mother is trampling them with her traditional behavior and school-wounded mindset, then she needs to stop NOW. Not in a year or two. And she doesn't need to be told "You are an amazing mother; you know your children better than anyone" while she's telling us how angry she is with them just for being normal, needy, kids still willing to express that to her, and telling us about time-outs and yelling at them, when we are prepared with so many alternative ways for her to look at what's happening in her house today, right now.
Keith has been doing SCA combat since 1976. He played football before that. He played rugby for a while during that. He has heard all the arguments against it, and yet at the age of 55, he's still doing it. Should he listen calmly and politely for an hour for someone who thinks for some reason he's just never considered backing off on the speed and force?
How long and how politely should I listen to each person who comes to this discussion and tries to explain to me that there are other discussions where people "respect everyone equally," and that I could do the same thing without hurting anyone's feelings?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
feelings, getting defensive, feeling insulted -- but the understanding and
insights that can come out of taking that risk are huge.
-=-I know someone I admire tremendously as a radically unschooling mom and she
loves Sandra's books and writings but she can't stand being on this list -
not even just reading -- because she feels frequently upset by how she
imagines others are reacting.-=-
Marty and Keith both "do SCA combat"--they have armor, and they practice weekly with rattan swords, hitting hard. They come home with bruises that look horrible to me. There are some people who don't have the pain threshhold these guys have, or who don't have the desire or experience the thrill of having tried their skills against someone who will play that hard.
Sometimes other people who don't even own armor will go into a rant about how people are hitting too hard, and it's a 'violent sport,' and that they should only touch each other and shouldn't be actually hitting, even on armor or well-padded great helms.
Maybe it would be like the difference between (American) football, or rugby, and playing flag football, where no one is really supposed to make bodily contact past maybe touching hands some, but not to run into anyone.
Some prefer one over the other. It doesn't make the more serious one evil.
When the goal is for a parent to understand how her ideas are preventing unschooling from working, I think of this: "I would say that therapy needs a delicate touch, like treading amongst seedlings."
And the delicate seedlings are the children. And if the mother is trampling them with her traditional behavior and school-wounded mindset, then she needs to stop NOW. Not in a year or two. And she doesn't need to be told "You are an amazing mother; you know your children better than anyone" while she's telling us how angry she is with them just for being normal, needy, kids still willing to express that to her, and telling us about time-outs and yelling at them, when we are prepared with so many alternative ways for her to look at what's happening in her house today, right now.
Keith has been doing SCA combat since 1976. He played football before that. He played rugby for a while during that. He has heard all the arguments against it, and yet at the age of 55, he's still doing it. Should he listen calmly and politely for an hour for someone who thinks for some reason he's just never considered backing off on the speed and force?
How long and how politely should I listen to each person who comes to this discussion and tries to explain to me that there are other discussions where people "respect everyone equally," and that I could do the same thing without hurting anyone's feelings?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
How long? About 30 seconds - long enough to politely write, "Many people
like the list exactly the way it is, but what we do on this list is not
something everybody will enjoy or appreciate and that is why we warned you
to read for a good long while before jumping in."
-pam
like the list exactly the way it is, but what we do on this list is not
something everybody will enjoy or appreciate and that is why we warned you
to read for a good long while before jumping in."
-pam
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:36 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> How long and how politely should I listen to each person who comes to this
> discussion and tries to explain to me that there are other discussions
> where people "respect everyone equally," and that I could do the same thing
> without hurting anyone's feelings?
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
On Apr 25, 2012, at 9:07 AM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
If there were a One Right Answer, I'd think choice and desire would be key. Kind of like a destination on a map -- City One Right Answer -- but you had to *want* to go there and then actually *choose* to go there.
The tricky part for me, as I'm learning, is that City One Right Answer does not exist. Instead, each person in my family has their own special place marked on their individual maps. And even the individual maps are completely different. And we are a family that will be together for some time navigating these maps and places because we want to and because we choose to.
There is tension right now in my home because one of us feels we are headed the wrong way and is trying to control and shift things. There have been times when our ship sailed much more smoothly. We are figuring out how to get back to that place. Which isn't a real place on a real map at all. It's that feeling that comes from being a family unit full of joy and peace and discovery. If someone had a map leading to that place, I'd buy it, but there'd still be a need for choice and desire to get there by all the family members.
Sometimes I wonder if my journey towards unschooling is actually about learning how to find and to make peace in my family.
Ceci
> /// Choice and desire are pretty much at the core of whether something will work for someone. But those can't be controlled so it's not taken into consideration when looking for The One Right Answer. ///One of the many things I'm learning from deschooling/unschooling is how vital choice and desire are -- for me, my kids, my husband -- as we move from traditional school and traditional ways of being.
If there were a One Right Answer, I'd think choice and desire would be key. Kind of like a destination on a map -- City One Right Answer -- but you had to *want* to go there and then actually *choose* to go there.
The tricky part for me, as I'm learning, is that City One Right Answer does not exist. Instead, each person in my family has their own special place marked on their individual maps. And even the individual maps are completely different. And we are a family that will be together for some time navigating these maps and places because we want to and because we choose to.
There is tension right now in my home because one of us feels we are headed the wrong way and is trying to control and shift things. There have been times when our ship sailed much more smoothly. We are figuring out how to get back to that place. Which isn't a real place on a real map at all. It's that feeling that comes from being a family unit full of joy and peace and discovery. If someone had a map leading to that place, I'd buy it, but there'd still be a need for choice and desire to get there by all the family members.
Sometimes I wonder if my journey towards unschooling is actually about learning how to find and to make peace in my family.
Ceci
Sandra Dodd
-=-There is tension right now in my home because one of us feels we are headed the wrong way and is trying to control and shift things. There have been times when our ship sailed much more smoothly. We are figuring out how to get back to that place. Which isn't a real place on a real map at all. It's that feeling that comes from being a family unit full of joy and peace and discovery. -=-
Then your destination, though, your goal, your principles, involve joy, peace and discovery. And things that lead away from those are not good.
But if one of you feels the group is headed the wrong way, the way to bring more peace to that person (and thereby to the group) is probably not to leave him behind.
Parents need to be in agreement for things to move forward peacefully. I'm guessing (perhaps wrongly) that it's not one of the kids who's causing your ship not to sail smoothly.
Sailing sounds like a departure, too. Maybe being home, centered, stable, would be a better image.
Without principles to guide you, as a team, as a group, how can you tell if you're having peace and progress?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Then your destination, though, your goal, your principles, involve joy, peace and discovery. And things that lead away from those are not good.
But if one of you feels the group is headed the wrong way, the way to bring more peace to that person (and thereby to the group) is probably not to leave him behind.
Parents need to be in agreement for things to move forward peacefully. I'm guessing (perhaps wrongly) that it's not one of the kids who's causing your ship not to sail smoothly.
Sailing sounds like a departure, too. Maybe being home, centered, stable, would be a better image.
Without principles to guide you, as a team, as a group, how can you tell if you're having peace and progress?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
-- Without principles to guide you, as a team, as a group, how can you tell if you're having peace and progress? ---
Principles -- this is the main part of the knotted mess my family is untangling. I have started conversations about principles and guidance vs. limits and rules but rather than help things unfurl, it causes more tension.
When I am the one making more peaceful choices, everyone feels more at peace and more joy, more discovery happens effortlessly. Sometimes I fail at making the peaceful choice. Sometimes I want to dig in my heels and be reactionary to things I'd consider as controlling or authoritarian. I *know* that kind of reactionary behavior does not *fix* things and that it actually causes more disharmony and stresses everyone out. I *know* that being in the moment and choosing what will move things towards more peace is the better choice. I know these things because I've done both and seen very clearly what happens. Sometimes I make poor choices, still.
My husband and I have yet to discuss principles per se, though I have mentioned a couple of times pretty clearly that I would like to discuss what our principles as a family are. Currently, my husband is pretty disturbed about our differences of opinion mostly around sugar, media and bedtimes.
I thought things were moving along decently for my family until recently when my husband started to take iPhones from our girls when they were in the middle of using them, tell them they had to ask before watching TV or playing on their phones, aggravating things when it was already late at night and everyone was tired, etc.
When he wasn't protesting these things, I felt that our family life was peaceful and sweet. He seemed happy, too. He has been saying things like, "I don't know any 3 or 5 year olds who have unlimited access to iPhones!" I have said to him without making a big deal about it, "Those are a portal to whole world that we won't be here for, but they will. Who knows where it will lead them?" My husband thinks the media use is "candy for their brains" and is bad for them. I tell him that the more he restricts it, the more they will want it and he thinks that's BS. I sent him Pam's article on the economics of restriction -- he never even commented on it one way or the other. He believes firmly that it's the parents' job to limit access. He's not 100% against use of media, but he's against unlimited use. I've said to him that I think it's possible to suggest or guide without limiting but he won't even discuss it. I've brought up that I had unlimited access to media growing up and I watch the least -- I go days sometimes weeks without TV or a movie! I've even mentioned how poorly done some of the anti-media research has been in their design. I actually read original research on this stuff but he does not. It doesn't seem to matter, though, because he has a strong feeling about limiting their access to media (and sugar and making them to to bed earlier than they are now).
What came up the other day is that there seems to be a bigger issue which is that he feels like it's him against me and the girls.
The really sad part about this is that as much as my daughters and I want him to be with us and to have fun with us, he often only wants to do things on his terms or on his schedule.
This is a great example (that actually happened) of how it is in my family:
Days in advance --
Ma: Do you want to see Chimpanzee the movie with the girls and me since you don't have to work on Thursday now?
Pa: I don't know. Let me think about it.
Ma: Izzy is really excited about it. (She loves monkeys!)
Pa: I'll think about it.
I ask again the day before and my husband still hasn't decided.
The day of the screening, Izzy (3) asks her dad in a sweet way: "Are you coming to the movie, too, Daddy?"
Pa: "Do you want me to?"
Izzy: (nodding)
Pa: "OK, I'll go."
Izzy: (clapping her hands and smiling ear to ear) Yay, Daddy's coming too!
Driving to the theater (45 minute drive) our 5 year old says --
Carolina: I want to pick up trash when I grow up.
Ma: Because you want to save the animals in the ocean? (We recently went to classes at the aquarium and she's been talking about "saving the universe" by picking up and repurposing trash since then.)
Izzy: I want to be a ballerina when I grow up!
Carolina: Uh-huh. Yup!
Pa: That's a gross job.
Ma: You want to be a ballerina?
Pa: See there girls? The Hollywood sign? I used to bike up there with your Uncle Ben. There's a path that takes you up there but...
And my husband then monologues about going up to the sign, the big antennas there, biking, etc. and the conversation my 5 and 3 year old had begun had ended before it even really got going.
He has moments where he is really fun to be with and he can really draw the girls in then, but often, he is trying to get them to go along with a plan that sounds good to him that he thinks they would like, too. The "problem" is that sometimes the girls have different ideas and he is more often than not, not excited about their ideas and not willing to do them.
I think I'm beginning to come to terms with the fact that my husband is pretty conventional in terms of thinking that the adult has the authority to dictate the kids' activities as much as the adults want or need to.
It's when I see the girls yelling or screaming at their father, "bully!" or "be nice to me!" and their tears, I feel helpless and/or angry at how he doesn't see he's showing the girls that his rules and his priorities take precedent over his relationship with them. I've even said something to that effect to him but he scoffs at it or counters with, "I do EVERYTHING for them!"
I have tried different things like saying in the moment when the girls are really upset, "Is this worth it to you?" I've also tried presenting my husband's position to the girls in a more gentle way, though, if I am particularly upset, it becomes harder for me to do with empathy.
But I know and the family knows we are making progress because we have brilliantly shining moments -- brighter than ever before. And the dark moments are nowhere near as dark as they have been in the past.
I think I am beginning to recognize that unless I can really consistently make better choices that it is really unfair of me to expect that others in my family will make better choices. Letting that expectation go will help me focus on what I am doing which will hopefully result in more peace, more joy and more discovery...
Ceci
Principles -- this is the main part of the knotted mess my family is untangling. I have started conversations about principles and guidance vs. limits and rules but rather than help things unfurl, it causes more tension.
When I am the one making more peaceful choices, everyone feels more at peace and more joy, more discovery happens effortlessly. Sometimes I fail at making the peaceful choice. Sometimes I want to dig in my heels and be reactionary to things I'd consider as controlling or authoritarian. I *know* that kind of reactionary behavior does not *fix* things and that it actually causes more disharmony and stresses everyone out. I *know* that being in the moment and choosing what will move things towards more peace is the better choice. I know these things because I've done both and seen very clearly what happens. Sometimes I make poor choices, still.
My husband and I have yet to discuss principles per se, though I have mentioned a couple of times pretty clearly that I would like to discuss what our principles as a family are. Currently, my husband is pretty disturbed about our differences of opinion mostly around sugar, media and bedtimes.
I thought things were moving along decently for my family until recently when my husband started to take iPhones from our girls when they were in the middle of using them, tell them they had to ask before watching TV or playing on their phones, aggravating things when it was already late at night and everyone was tired, etc.
When he wasn't protesting these things, I felt that our family life was peaceful and sweet. He seemed happy, too. He has been saying things like, "I don't know any 3 or 5 year olds who have unlimited access to iPhones!" I have said to him without making a big deal about it, "Those are a portal to whole world that we won't be here for, but they will. Who knows where it will lead them?" My husband thinks the media use is "candy for their brains" and is bad for them. I tell him that the more he restricts it, the more they will want it and he thinks that's BS. I sent him Pam's article on the economics of restriction -- he never even commented on it one way or the other. He believes firmly that it's the parents' job to limit access. He's not 100% against use of media, but he's against unlimited use. I've said to him that I think it's possible to suggest or guide without limiting but he won't even discuss it. I've brought up that I had unlimited access to media growing up and I watch the least -- I go days sometimes weeks without TV or a movie! I've even mentioned how poorly done some of the anti-media research has been in their design. I actually read original research on this stuff but he does not. It doesn't seem to matter, though, because he has a strong feeling about limiting their access to media (and sugar and making them to to bed earlier than they are now).
What came up the other day is that there seems to be a bigger issue which is that he feels like it's him against me and the girls.
The really sad part about this is that as much as my daughters and I want him to be with us and to have fun with us, he often only wants to do things on his terms or on his schedule.
This is a great example (that actually happened) of how it is in my family:
Days in advance --
Ma: Do you want to see Chimpanzee the movie with the girls and me since you don't have to work on Thursday now?
Pa: I don't know. Let me think about it.
Ma: Izzy is really excited about it. (She loves monkeys!)
Pa: I'll think about it.
I ask again the day before and my husband still hasn't decided.
The day of the screening, Izzy (3) asks her dad in a sweet way: "Are you coming to the movie, too, Daddy?"
Pa: "Do you want me to?"
Izzy: (nodding)
Pa: "OK, I'll go."
Izzy: (clapping her hands and smiling ear to ear) Yay, Daddy's coming too!
Driving to the theater (45 minute drive) our 5 year old says --
Carolina: I want to pick up trash when I grow up.
Ma: Because you want to save the animals in the ocean? (We recently went to classes at the aquarium and she's been talking about "saving the universe" by picking up and repurposing trash since then.)
Izzy: I want to be a ballerina when I grow up!
Carolina: Uh-huh. Yup!
Pa: That's a gross job.
Ma: You want to be a ballerina?
Pa: See there girls? The Hollywood sign? I used to bike up there with your Uncle Ben. There's a path that takes you up there but...
And my husband then monologues about going up to the sign, the big antennas there, biking, etc. and the conversation my 5 and 3 year old had begun had ended before it even really got going.
He has moments where he is really fun to be with and he can really draw the girls in then, but often, he is trying to get them to go along with a plan that sounds good to him that he thinks they would like, too. The "problem" is that sometimes the girls have different ideas and he is more often than not, not excited about their ideas and not willing to do them.
I think I'm beginning to come to terms with the fact that my husband is pretty conventional in terms of thinking that the adult has the authority to dictate the kids' activities as much as the adults want or need to.
It's when I see the girls yelling or screaming at their father, "bully!" or "be nice to me!" and their tears, I feel helpless and/or angry at how he doesn't see he's showing the girls that his rules and his priorities take precedent over his relationship with them. I've even said something to that effect to him but he scoffs at it or counters with, "I do EVERYTHING for them!"
I have tried different things like saying in the moment when the girls are really upset, "Is this worth it to you?" I've also tried presenting my husband's position to the girls in a more gentle way, though, if I am particularly upset, it becomes harder for me to do with empathy.
But I know and the family knows we are making progress because we have brilliantly shining moments -- brighter than ever before. And the dark moments are nowhere near as dark as they have been in the past.
I think I am beginning to recognize that unless I can really consistently make better choices that it is really unfair of me to expect that others in my family will make better choices. Letting that expectation go will help me focus on what I am doing which will hopefully result in more peace, more joy and more discovery...
Ceci
Joyce Fetteroll
On Apr 28, 2012, at 2:23 AM, catfish_friend wrote:
If he says, "I do EVERYTHING for them!" then that's how he's feeling even if you don't think that's true. You'll be able to react in ways that make him feel better if you respond to *his* view rather than to your view.
He won't need as much as he's "asking" for in these round about ways. But he needs to keep asking while he feels his bucket isn't being filled.
Maybe read Pam's economics post with that in mind.
Maybe a weekly date night? Maybe more spontaneously nice things done for him. You can even involve the girls in doing nice things for Daddy.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> And my husband then monologues about going up to the sign,As I was reading, I got the sense of your husband being needy and your reactions feel to him like "Your needs aren't as important as the kids' needs." He's even said it feels like it's you and the girls against him. So he's competing against them for his share of the attention. Which may account for some of his harsh reaction to the media. He may be less bothered if he's not feeling deprived.
> the big antennas there, biking, etc. and the conversation my 5
> and 3 year old had begun had ended before it even really got going.
If he says, "I do EVERYTHING for them!" then that's how he's feeling even if you don't think that's true. You'll be able to react in ways that make him feel better if you respond to *his* view rather than to your view.
He won't need as much as he's "asking" for in these round about ways. But he needs to keep asking while he feels his bucket isn't being filled.
Maybe read Pam's economics post with that in mind.
Maybe a weekly date night? Maybe more spontaneously nice things done for him. You can even involve the girls in doing nice things for Daddy.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Principles -- this is the main part of the knotted mess my family is untangling. I have started conversations about principles and guidance vs. limits and rules but rather than help things unfurl, it causes more tension.-=-
I think you went too far too fast. Because of that, your husband is understandably resistant. When he tried to communicate that he feels that everything he does is for the family, it seems perhaps you looked at it defensively instead of lovingly.
Give him some room to live in his own home, too, or he might decide he doesn't want to anymore.
-=-My husband and I have yet to discuss principles per se, though I have mentioned a couple of times pretty clearly that I would like to discuss what our principles as a family are. -=-
That doesn't sound very inviting. If you can be loving and patient, that might include not making rules that he doesn't support. You seem to have a rule that the girls can use iPhones as much as they want to. He didn't agree to that rule.
I see Joyce has already responded to this, so I won't say more. She's probably got it covered. :-)
If you consider yourself the girls' protector from this mean guy, then he's right that there are teams, and he's on the outside.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think you went too far too fast. Because of that, your husband is understandably resistant. When he tried to communicate that he feels that everything he does is for the family, it seems perhaps you looked at it defensively instead of lovingly.
Give him some room to live in his own home, too, or he might decide he doesn't want to anymore.
-=-My husband and I have yet to discuss principles per se, though I have mentioned a couple of times pretty clearly that I would like to discuss what our principles as a family are. -=-
That doesn't sound very inviting. If you can be loving and patient, that might include not making rules that he doesn't support. You seem to have a rule that the girls can use iPhones as much as they want to. He didn't agree to that rule.
I see Joyce has already responded to this, so I won't say more. She's probably got it covered. :-)
If you consider yourself the girls' protector from this mean guy, then he's right that there are teams, and he's on the outside.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
From an e-mail, not really a response to this discussion, something I want to add to the mix:
-=-Also, I'm on board, but my husband is still skeptical. He won't read articles or anything of the sort - never has as far as parenting stuff goes. He wants (feels he needs to) teach (he comes from a teacher background - his mom, uncle, himself). He, in a sense, goes against the philosophy of unschooling, so I want something that will reach out to him - somewhere where he can ask questions. -=-
"On board" is an idiomatic expression, I know, but if someone sees unschooling as something one can "board"--like getting on a ship--that ship will sail away from anyone who didn't "board."
But that analogy is very wrong and flawed.
Unschooling needs to be created and built at home, in each family, possibly very gradually. One half of a couple can't "get on board" and leave.
Perhaps part of the problem sometimes is that one parent (usually the mother; very occasionally the dad) discovers unschooling and "joins" as though it were a club, or a church, without talking to the other partner. But that's not how unschooling works.
If a mother identifies with other unschoolers more than with her husband, there's a big rift already.
We're talking about a way to create a learning environment at your home. We have lots of ideas for that, but if we were talking about building hay-bale houses, just "getting on board" isn't even the start of building such a house.
Not everyone can unschool, and that needs to be okay, because there's no getting around it. If a couple doesn't completely agree but the dad can be persuaded to give it a chance for a year or two, the mom can help move toward an ideal, but it's going to take focus and work to move gradually toward it. Abandoning everything the dad thinks is important isn't a good idea.
Taking a few years to transition is better than taking an antagonistic position that leads to confusion and frustration for the children and the father. "We're building a hay-bale house, and I want you to go to a conference where you can ask questions" is no way to persuade one's husband that a hay bale house might be a good idea, especially if he really likes the house he's in.
Sandra
-=-Also, I'm on board, but my husband is still skeptical. He won't read articles or anything of the sort - never has as far as parenting stuff goes. He wants (feels he needs to) teach (he comes from a teacher background - his mom, uncle, himself). He, in a sense, goes against the philosophy of unschooling, so I want something that will reach out to him - somewhere where he can ask questions. -=-
"On board" is an idiomatic expression, I know, but if someone sees unschooling as something one can "board"--like getting on a ship--that ship will sail away from anyone who didn't "board."
But that analogy is very wrong and flawed.
Unschooling needs to be created and built at home, in each family, possibly very gradually. One half of a couple can't "get on board" and leave.
Perhaps part of the problem sometimes is that one parent (usually the mother; very occasionally the dad) discovers unschooling and "joins" as though it were a club, or a church, without talking to the other partner. But that's not how unschooling works.
If a mother identifies with other unschoolers more than with her husband, there's a big rift already.
We're talking about a way to create a learning environment at your home. We have lots of ideas for that, but if we were talking about building hay-bale houses, just "getting on board" isn't even the start of building such a house.
Not everyone can unschool, and that needs to be okay, because there's no getting around it. If a couple doesn't completely agree but the dad can be persuaded to give it a chance for a year or two, the mom can help move toward an ideal, but it's going to take focus and work to move gradually toward it. Abandoning everything the dad thinks is important isn't a good idea.
Taking a few years to transition is better than taking an antagonistic position that leads to confusion and frustration for the children and the father. "We're building a hay-bale house, and I want you to go to a conference where you can ask questions" is no way to persuade one's husband that a hay bale house might be a good idea, especially if he really likes the house he's in.
Sandra
catfish_friend
--- As I was reading, I got the sense of your husband being needy and your reactions feel to him like "Your needs aren't as important as the kids' needs."
(snip)
You'll be able to react in ways that make him feel better if you respond to *his* view rather than to your view. ---
Good point, Joyce. I have expectations that because he's an adult, he can find ways to meet his own needs, especially since I often take the girls so he can have time to take care of himself. I have offered that he take as much time as he needs to take care of himself, to which I get a practically blank look. For a number of reasons, I am learning that this is an unrealistic and an unkind expectation.
--- Maybe a weekly date night? Maybe more spontaneously nice things done for him. You can even involve the girls in doing nice things for Daddy. ---
We recently started our date night after a long, unplanned hiatus. Yes, I definitely agree that my husband's cup is unfilled. I can be kinder towards him. I can help the girls be kinder towards him. I have wondered if my husband is resentful of how generous, patient and kind I can be with our girls compared to how I treat him at times. I wonder if he wishes subconsciously to be mothered, or at least, to have his needs met in relationship rather than by himself, on his own.
One paradox I have experienced is the more time, energy and presence I give, the more I have. I have also seen the converse -- I have less the less time, energy and presence I give. Maybe giving my husband room and space to fulfill his own needs is depleting him when what he really needs is to be connected more deeply, more meaningfully. And it's my responsibility to invite him in lovingly.
Ceci
(snip)
You'll be able to react in ways that make him feel better if you respond to *his* view rather than to your view. ---
Good point, Joyce. I have expectations that because he's an adult, he can find ways to meet his own needs, especially since I often take the girls so he can have time to take care of himself. I have offered that he take as much time as he needs to take care of himself, to which I get a practically blank look. For a number of reasons, I am learning that this is an unrealistic and an unkind expectation.
--- Maybe a weekly date night? Maybe more spontaneously nice things done for him. You can even involve the girls in doing nice things for Daddy. ---
We recently started our date night after a long, unplanned hiatus. Yes, I definitely agree that my husband's cup is unfilled. I can be kinder towards him. I can help the girls be kinder towards him. I have wondered if my husband is resentful of how generous, patient and kind I can be with our girls compared to how I treat him at times. I wonder if he wishes subconsciously to be mothered, or at least, to have his needs met in relationship rather than by himself, on his own.
One paradox I have experienced is the more time, energy and presence I give, the more I have. I have also seen the converse -- I have less the less time, energy and presence I give. Maybe giving my husband room and space to fulfill his own needs is depleting him when what he really needs is to be connected more deeply, more meaningfully. And it's my responsibility to invite him in lovingly.
Ceci
Sandra Dodd
-=-. I have expectations that because he's an adult, he can find ways to meet his own needs-=-
He married you to fulfill many of his human needs. Companionship, nurturing, maybe status, for help in life in all kinds of ways. To be the mother of his children. I'm sure he considers them to be HIS children to some extent. At least 50%.
-=-I often take the girls so he can have time to take care of himself. I have offered that he take as much time as he needs to take care of himself, to which I get a practically blank look.-=-
OFTEN? You have said more than once to him "take as much time as you need to take care of yourself"?
-=-For a number of reasons, I am learning that this is an unrealistic and an unkind expectation.-=-
And another rejection, it seems, on top of other rejections. Unless he's an introvert and you're not. Then offering to take the girls away from the house so he can have some quiet time might be kind.
-=
my husband is resentful of how generous, patient and kind I can be with our girls compared to how I treat him at times.-=-
Of course he is. Anyone would be. It's natural.
-=-I wonder if he wishes subconsciously to be mothered, or at least, to have his needs met in relationship rather than by himself, on his own.-=-
There are things he needs from you that he never wanted from his mother, even.
Seven billion people in the world, half of them women, a few thousand of them no far from you.... don't leave him to have his needs met on his own.
-=- Maybe giving my husband room and space to fulfill his own needs is depleting him when what he really needs is to be connected more deeply, more meaningfully. And it's my responsibility to invite him in lovingly.
-=-
An alarm rings at this. "To invite him in" where?
In to his own home?
In to his family?
Go to him. You go where he is, emotionally.
Read this, but think of your husband instead of a child:
http://sandradodd.com/being/with
Don't invite him in somewhere other than where he exists and lives, thinks and feels. Be with him where he is.
-=-I have wondered if...-=-
-=-I wonder if -=-
However much time you spent wondering those things would have been better spent being sweet and attentive to him.
Sandra
None of that is about physical distance. It's about images and words in your own head that are creating distance. |
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He married you to fulfill many of his human needs. Companionship, nurturing, maybe status, for help in life in all kinds of ways. To be the mother of his children. I'm sure he considers them to be HIS children to some extent. At least 50%.
-=-I often take the girls so he can have time to take care of himself. I have offered that he take as much time as he needs to take care of himself, to which I get a practically blank look.-=-
OFTEN? You have said more than once to him "take as much time as you need to take care of yourself"?
-=-For a number of reasons, I am learning that this is an unrealistic and an unkind expectation.-=-
And another rejection, it seems, on top of other rejections. Unless he's an introvert and you're not. Then offering to take the girls away from the house so he can have some quiet time might be kind.
-=
my husband is resentful of how generous, patient and kind I can be with our girls compared to how I treat him at times.-=-
Of course he is. Anyone would be. It's natural.
-=-I wonder if he wishes subconsciously to be mothered, or at least, to have his needs met in relationship rather than by himself, on his own.-=-
There are things he needs from you that he never wanted from his mother, even.
Seven billion people in the world, half of them women, a few thousand of them no far from you.... don't leave him to have his needs met on his own.
-=- Maybe giving my husband room and space to fulfill his own needs is depleting him when what he really needs is to be connected more deeply, more meaningfully. And it's my responsibility to invite him in lovingly.
-=-
An alarm rings at this. "To invite him in" where?
In to his own home?
In to his family?
Go to him. You go where he is, emotionally.
Read this, but think of your husband instead of a child:
http://sandradodd.com/being/with
Don't invite him in somewhere other than where he exists and lives, thinks and feels. Be with him where he is.
-=-I have wondered if...-=-
-=-I wonder if -=-
However much time you spent wondering those things would have been better spent being sweet and attentive to him.
Sandra
None of that is about physical distance. It's about images and words in your own head that are creating distance. |
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
--- I think you went too far too fast. Because of that, your husband is understandably resistant. ---
Yes. But of course, I only understood that in hindsight! I read your gradual change page many times, yet, I didn't follow it! If there were one thing I wish I really grasped when I was first reading about unschooling, it would be to transition to unschooling SLOOOOOWLY.
For any newbies, please please read this and don't do what I did:
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
--- If you can be loving and patient, that might include not making rules that he doesn't support. You seem to have a rule that the girls can use iPhones as much as they want to. He didn't agree to that rule. ---
The funny thing is, I don't have a rule that the girls can use their iPhones all they want, but that is what my husband thinks is my rule and this is what he argues with me about. He cuts me off as soon as I start to explain what I do think about iPhone use. He will say that he's talked about it enough. He is not open to even hearing me say a thing about it. He's judgmental of kids we see out and about on their electronic devices. He's judgmental of their parents, too. I think he has a prejudice about it as well as a fear of how he and our kids are perceived when they are using iPhones.
My husband has a rule that the girls must ask for permission to use media and he never asked me what I thought on this. He won't discuss this even when I've tried. We've started couples therapy again (partly because he is so troubled by this difference) and he won't talk about it there. The hard part about this conflict is that he's not open to any discussion about it besides me agreeing to his rule. So, when the girls want to watch TV or play on their iPhones or want something sweet that isn't fruit, I tell them that their dad wants them to ask him first. And that's what is happening. Sometimes the girls get what they want and sometimes they are asked to wait and sometimes they don't get what they want and they sometimes scream and cry. What is particularly frustrating to me is that I have to be the one the deal with the aftermath of my husband's denials.
Ceci
Yes. But of course, I only understood that in hindsight! I read your gradual change page many times, yet, I didn't follow it! If there were one thing I wish I really grasped when I was first reading about unschooling, it would be to transition to unschooling SLOOOOOWLY.
For any newbies, please please read this and don't do what I did:
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
--- If you can be loving and patient, that might include not making rules that he doesn't support. You seem to have a rule that the girls can use iPhones as much as they want to. He didn't agree to that rule. ---
The funny thing is, I don't have a rule that the girls can use their iPhones all they want, but that is what my husband thinks is my rule and this is what he argues with me about. He cuts me off as soon as I start to explain what I do think about iPhone use. He will say that he's talked about it enough. He is not open to even hearing me say a thing about it. He's judgmental of kids we see out and about on their electronic devices. He's judgmental of their parents, too. I think he has a prejudice about it as well as a fear of how he and our kids are perceived when they are using iPhones.
My husband has a rule that the girls must ask for permission to use media and he never asked me what I thought on this. He won't discuss this even when I've tried. We've started couples therapy again (partly because he is so troubled by this difference) and he won't talk about it there. The hard part about this conflict is that he's not open to any discussion about it besides me agreeing to his rule. So, when the girls want to watch TV or play on their iPhones or want something sweet that isn't fruit, I tell them that their dad wants them to ask him first. And that's what is happening. Sometimes the girls get what they want and sometimes they are asked to wait and sometimes they don't get what they want and they sometimes scream and cry. What is particularly frustrating to me is that I have to be the one the deal with the aftermath of my husband's denials.
> --- If you consider yourself the girls' protector from this mean guy, then he's right that there are teams, and he's on the outside. ---There was a time I did have to protect them (and me) from him. I think it takes time to heal wounds like that. I will work harder, though, to look at him for who he is right now, rather than hold the past against him. I will need to work harder to be on the same team, but that is super-challenging when he's not willing to discuss things.
Ceci
Sandra Dodd
-=-My husband has a rule that the girls must ask for permission to use media and he never asked me what I thought on this. He won't discuss this even when I've tried.-=-
My kids asked all the time whether they could use the computer or the tv when they were little. I would talk through my thinking. If we were about to go somewhere, I would say so. If someone was asleep, I'd recommend something in another part of the house, or headphones.
If they ask, that gives you more opportunities to say yes!
-=-The funny thing is, I don't have a rule that the girls can use their iPhones all they want, but that is what my husband thinks is my rule and this is what he argues with me about. He cuts me off as soon as I start to explain what I do think about iPhone use. -=-
It sounded like a rule to me too, from what you wrote, so I'm not surprised it seems like it to him.
-=-. So, when the girls want to watch TV or play on their iPhones or want something sweet that isn't fruit, I tell them that their dad wants them to ask him first. And that's what is happening. Sometimes the girls get what they want and sometimes they are asked to wait and sometimes they don't get what they want and they sometimes scream and cry. What is particularly frustrating to me is that I have to be the one the deal with the aftermath of my husband's denials.-=-
Are you setting them all up for failure? Did he say he wanted them to ask HIM? Or that he wanted them to ask?
-=-I will need to work harder to be on the same team, but that is super-challenging when he's not willing to discuss things.-=-
There's a book about marriage improvement without talking about it. I bet someone here remembers the name of it. I own a copy, but it's not readily available.
You seem to be blaming him for all kinds of things, and you seem to think it's your right to talk to him as much as you want. I'm guessing doing more and talking less would make everything better immediately. Not perfect, but better. What you're doing now isn't helping, so don't keep doing the same things.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My kids asked all the time whether they could use the computer or the tv when they were little. I would talk through my thinking. If we were about to go somewhere, I would say so. If someone was asleep, I'd recommend something in another part of the house, or headphones.
If they ask, that gives you more opportunities to say yes!
-=-The funny thing is, I don't have a rule that the girls can use their iPhones all they want, but that is what my husband thinks is my rule and this is what he argues with me about. He cuts me off as soon as I start to explain what I do think about iPhone use. -=-
It sounded like a rule to me too, from what you wrote, so I'm not surprised it seems like it to him.
-=-. So, when the girls want to watch TV or play on their iPhones or want something sweet that isn't fruit, I tell them that their dad wants them to ask him first. And that's what is happening. Sometimes the girls get what they want and sometimes they are asked to wait and sometimes they don't get what they want and they sometimes scream and cry. What is particularly frustrating to me is that I have to be the one the deal with the aftermath of my husband's denials.-=-
Are you setting them all up for failure? Did he say he wanted them to ask HIM? Or that he wanted them to ask?
-=-I will need to work harder to be on the same team, but that is super-challenging when he's not willing to discuss things.-=-
There's a book about marriage improvement without talking about it. I bet someone here remembers the name of it. I own a copy, but it's not readily available.
You seem to be blaming him for all kinds of things, and you seem to think it's your right to talk to him as much as you want. I'm guessing doing more and talking less would make everything better immediately. Not perfect, but better. What you're doing now isn't helping, so don't keep doing the same things.
Sandra
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catfish_friend
--- You have said more than once to him "take as much time as you need to take care of yourself"? ---
He has told me that he needs time to exercise hard and without having the girls with him, i.e. mountain biking and bodyboarding. He is also passionate about photography which he can more easily do without having to keep his eyes on the girls.
I feel like the bed situation is a pretty good example of our dynamic. He's wanted, but he doesn't really like where he's wanted or the other circumstances involved. He wants things the way he wants them. It often means he chooses to be away. Aside from inviting him in more warmly, I don't think I can do much more. Like bringing a horse to water...I think...no, more like showing the horse there's water...
I've suggested that we consider school for the girls to relieve pressure on us. He thinks homeschooling is better than school but to me since it seems my husband does not often want to engage with the girls or do what they want to do and he's resentful of what I do for them, I wonder if school might be a better choice for now. At least until my husband and I can figure out our dynamic. Most people had much more time before having kids to understand their spouse but I knew mine for about a month and a half when we found out I was expecting. He mentioned recently how he was dragged along for organic food, homebirth and attachment parenting and now homeschooling (he refuses to use the word "unschooling"). But this is alongside him also thanking me for opening up his world to these things. Somedays he's happy about it and somedays he's stormy.
Thanks, Sandra.
Ceci
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He has told me that he needs time to exercise hard and without having the girls with him, i.e. mountain biking and bodyboarding. He is also passionate about photography which he can more easily do without having to keep his eyes on the girls.
> --- An alarm rings at this. "To invite him in" where?An example is our family bed -- when we moved, we went from a sleeping room with two queen beds on the floor to separate rooms. There is room in the girls' room for another bed but not in my husband's room. The girls and I have asked my husband to sleep in the girls' room, but he doesn't want to because it is not well-ventilated and he prefers a colder, breezy room at night vs. warm. I've told him that we could open the window, use a fan and extra covers for the girls but he's not interested. There is not the physical space in his room for the girls and me.
> In to his own home?
> In to his family? ---
I feel like the bed situation is a pretty good example of our dynamic. He's wanted, but he doesn't really like where he's wanted or the other circumstances involved. He wants things the way he wants them. It often means he chooses to be away. Aside from inviting him in more warmly, I don't think I can do much more. Like bringing a horse to water...I think...no, more like showing the horse there's water...
> --- Go to him. You go where he is, emotionally.I've suggested we have family sports night (he's an avid, rabid fan of his teams) especially for the big games. He doesn't even comment on this. There's a chance that one of his teams may be going to the finals against a local team which will mean a once in a lifetime (and expensive) chance to go see it live as a family which I've suggested we do. He seemed excited at the prospect, but again, no further discussion.
> Read this, but think of your husband instead of a child:
> http://sandradodd.com/being/with ---
I've suggested that we consider school for the girls to relieve pressure on us. He thinks homeschooling is better than school but to me since it seems my husband does not often want to engage with the girls or do what they want to do and he's resentful of what I do for them, I wonder if school might be a better choice for now. At least until my husband and I can figure out our dynamic. Most people had much more time before having kids to understand their spouse but I knew mine for about a month and a half when we found out I was expecting. He mentioned recently how he was dragged along for organic food, homebirth and attachment parenting and now homeschooling (he refuses to use the word "unschooling"). But this is alongside him also thanking me for opening up his world to these things. Somedays he's happy about it and somedays he's stormy.
> --- Don't invite him in somewhere other than where he exists and lives, thinks and feels. Be with him where he is. ---What if he's depressed? Going through a mid-life crisis? Other than trying to relieve stress and pressure on him, I'm not sure what else to do.
> --- However much time you spent wondering those things would have been better spent being sweet and attentive to him. ---I guess that's the answer :)
Thanks, Sandra.
Ceci
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catfish_friend
--- Are you setting them all up for failure? Did he say he wanted them to ask HIM? Or that he wanted them to ask? ---
He said that he wanted them to ask, but if they ask me, I tend to think it's OK when my husband does not think it's OK. He will come storming into the TV room saying to the kids, "You need to ask first!" without even checking in with me if they asked. He means HE wants to be the arbiter because he doesn't like my choices.
I am more likely to let them enjoy media right now because I need to work on some tedious detailed work that requires my uninterrupted focus. When they watch TV or play on their phones, it gives me good chunks of time. I've set up to record shows I know they love and that I am familiar with so we can talk about them later. They need passwords for downloads, so I know the games on their phones. I am likely to visit and play with my kids when I'm taking a break or at a stopping point, but I'm working on stuff that's time sensitive and requires talking to people during banker's hours, so I'm busy most of the day right now. My husband is working part-time and he knows what I need to do but he rarely suggests something the girls are likely to prefer over TV, so he gets frustrated and the girls, too. When he comes up with something the girls want to do, it's a win-win and that's great. I've tried suggesting things that I know the girls love that I think he might, too, but even that has been met with resistance. I have gotten the feeling that he just wants me to back-off. He wants to make his own choices, to be the one with the key to sugar and media for the girls and I'm ok with that for now if that's what will make things more peaceful for him.
I set him up to fail unintentionally -- he was working 60+ hours a week when we started deschooling. I went too fast towards radical unschooling and when my husband chose to change gears with his career putting him at home much more, I think all this radical change was jarring.
Ceci
He said that he wanted them to ask, but if they ask me, I tend to think it's OK when my husband does not think it's OK. He will come storming into the TV room saying to the kids, "You need to ask first!" without even checking in with me if they asked. He means HE wants to be the arbiter because he doesn't like my choices.
I am more likely to let them enjoy media right now because I need to work on some tedious detailed work that requires my uninterrupted focus. When they watch TV or play on their phones, it gives me good chunks of time. I've set up to record shows I know they love and that I am familiar with so we can talk about them later. They need passwords for downloads, so I know the games on their phones. I am likely to visit and play with my kids when I'm taking a break or at a stopping point, but I'm working on stuff that's time sensitive and requires talking to people during banker's hours, so I'm busy most of the day right now. My husband is working part-time and he knows what I need to do but he rarely suggests something the girls are likely to prefer over TV, so he gets frustrated and the girls, too. When he comes up with something the girls want to do, it's a win-win and that's great. I've tried suggesting things that I know the girls love that I think he might, too, but even that has been met with resistance. I have gotten the feeling that he just wants me to back-off. He wants to make his own choices, to be the one with the key to sugar and media for the girls and I'm ok with that for now if that's what will make things more peaceful for him.
I set him up to fail unintentionally -- he was working 60+ hours a week when we started deschooling. I went too fast towards radical unschooling and when my husband chose to change gears with his career putting him at home much more, I think all this radical change was jarring.
Ceci
Michelle Smith
I think it may be 'How to improve your marriage without talking about it:
finding love beyond words' by Patricia Love and Steven Stosny.
I'm new to unschooling and only been on this list a month or so, but this
book is referenced on Sandra's site and it is on my to read list.
finding love beyond words' by Patricia Love and Steven Stosny.
I'm new to unschooling and only been on this list a month or so, but this
book is referenced on Sandra's site and it is on my to read list.
On Apr 28, 2012 11:59 AM, "Sandra Dodd" <Sandra@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> -=-My husband has a rule that the girls must ask for permission to use
> media and he never asked me what I thought on this. He won't discuss this
> even when I've tried.-=-
>
> My kids asked all the time whether they could use the computer or the tv
> when they were little. I would talk through my thinking. If we were about
> to go somewhere, I would say so. If someone was asleep, I'd recommend
> something in another part of the house, or headphones.
>
> If they ask, that gives you more opportunities to say yes!
>
> -=-The funny thing is, I don't have a rule that the girls can use their
> iPhones all they want, but that is what my husband thinks is my rule and
> this is what he argues with me about. He cuts me off as soon as I start to
> explain what I do think about iPhone use. -=-
>
> It sounded like a rule to me too, from what you wrote, so I'm not
> surprised it seems like it to him.
>
> -=-. So, when the girls want to watch TV or play on their iPhones or want
> something sweet that isn't fruit, I tell them that their dad wants them to
> ask him first. And that's what is happening. Sometimes the girls get what
> they want and sometimes they are asked to wait and sometimes they don't get
> what they want and they sometimes scream and cry. What is particularly
> frustrating to me is that I have to be the one the deal with the aftermath
> of my husband's denials.-=-
>
> Are you setting them all up for failure? Did he say he wanted them to ask
> HIM? Or that he wanted them to ask?
>
> -=-I will need to work harder to be on the same team, but that is
> super-challenging when he's not willing to discuss things.-=-
>
> There's a book about marriage improvement without talking about it. I bet
> someone here remembers the name of it. I own a copy, but it's not readily
> available.
>
> You seem to be blaming him for all kinds of things, and you seem to think
> it's your right to talk to him as much as you want. I'm guessing doing more
> and talking less would make everything better immediately. Not perfect, but
> better. What you're doing now isn't helping, so don't keep doing the same
> things.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
> There was a time I did have to protect them (and me) from him. IThis concerns me. Was this an abusive relationship in the past? And
> think it takes time to heal wounds like that.
how have things fundamentally changed since?
Robin B.
K Pennell
I haven't been on this site for very long, and am not sure I should respond, but had a few thoughts.
First, in my house, I am the less "unschool-y" one, and I am thankful for the respect and freedom I have, and for my husband's gentleness in introducing me down this path. We are gradually moving more toward child-led learning and unschooling and away from traditional school at home. My husband is the one home with the boys most of the time. But even though I work, I so want to be a part of it all that I'm very glad to be included. No one got on board and took off without me.
I do wonder if the "ask your father" sort of sets him up. Do you do this to sort of say "hey, I don't agree they have to ask, so it's your deal, not mine?" Or do you want them to ask him because you are afraid you might get the answer wrong and he'll be mad at you. That is another issue completely. You mention a time when you did feel you had to protect the girls from him. Is there lingering fear there from that time that makes it hard for you to include him yet be autonomous?
First, in my house, I am the less "unschool-y" one, and I am thankful for the respect and freedom I have, and for my husband's gentleness in introducing me down this path. We are gradually moving more toward child-led learning and unschooling and away from traditional school at home. My husband is the one home with the boys most of the time. But even though I work, I so want to be a part of it all that I'm very glad to be included. No one got on board and took off without me.
I do wonder if the "ask your father" sort of sets him up. Do you do this to sort of say "hey, I don't agree they have to ask, so it's your deal, not mine?" Or do you want them to ask him because you are afraid you might get the answer wrong and he'll be mad at you. That is another issue completely. You mention a time when you did feel you had to protect the girls from him. Is there lingering fear there from that time that makes it hard for you to include him yet be autonomous?
--- On Sat, 4/28/12, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] This article made me think of this list...
To: [email protected]
Date: Saturday, April 28, 2012, 12:59 PM
-=-My husband has a rule that the girls must ask for permission to use media and he never asked me what I thought on this. He won't discuss this even when I've tried.-=-
My kids asked all the time whether they could use the computer or the tv when they were little. I would talk through my thinking. If we were about to go somewhere, I would say so. If someone was asleep, I'd recommend something in another part of the house, or headphones.
If they ask, that gives you more opportunities to say yes!
-=-The funny thing is, I don't have a rule that the girls can use their iPhones all they want, but that is what my husband thinks is my rule and this is what he argues with me about. He cuts me off as soon as I start to explain what I do think about iPhone use. -=-
It sounded like a rule to me too, from what you wrote, so I'm not surprised it seems like it to him.
-=-. So, when the girls want to watch TV or play on their iPhones or want something sweet that isn't fruit, I tell them that their dad wants them to ask him first. And that's what is happening. Sometimes the girls get what they want and sometimes they are asked to wait and sometimes they don't get what they want and they sometimes scream and cry. What is particularly frustrating to me is that I have to be the one the deal with the aftermath of my husband's denials.-=-
Are you setting them all up for failure? Did he say he wanted them to ask HIM? Or that he wanted them to ask?
-=-I will need to work harder to be on the same team, but that is super-challenging when he's not willing to discuss things.-=-
There's a book about marriage improvement without talking about it. I bet someone here remembers the name of it. I own a copy, but it's not readily available.
You seem to be blaming him for all kinds of things, and you seem to think it's your right to talk to him as much as you want. I'm guessing doing more and talking less would make everything better immediately. Not perfect, but better. What you're doing now isn't helping, so don't keep doing the same things.
Sandra
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------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
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Sandra Dodd
Some more about kids asking permission to do things, something I wrote a few years ago:
-=-Just like getting lots of gifts instead of one big one, if you say "sure," "okay," "yes" to lots of requests for watching a movie late or having cake for breakfast or them playing another half hour on the swings and you can just read a book in the car nearby, then they get TONS of yes, and permission, and approval. If you throw your hands up and say "Whatever," that's a disturbing moment of mom seeming not to care instead of mom seeming the provider of an assortment of joyous approvals.-=-
Sandra
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-=-Just like getting lots of gifts instead of one big one, if you say "sure," "okay," "yes" to lots of requests for watching a movie late or having cake for breakfast or them playing another half hour on the swings and you can just read a book in the car nearby, then they get TONS of yes, and permission, and approval. If you throw your hands up and say "Whatever," that's a disturbing moment of mom seeming not to care instead of mom seeming the provider of an assortment of joyous approvals.-=-
Sandra
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Jenny Cyphers
***And my husband then monologues about going up to the sign, the big antennas there, biking, etc. and the conversation my 5 and 3 year old had begun had ended before it even really got going.***
This is the point in the conversation where you find a tie in. "I wonder how much trash is up there?" "I wonder where it comes from and where it goes from there?"
Ballerinas can pick up trash too! Or, they can put on an environmental awareness production. I don't know... still working on that!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is the point in the conversation where you find a tie in. "I wonder how much trash is up there?" "I wonder where it comes from and where it goes from there?"
Ballerinas can pick up trash too! Or, they can put on an environmental awareness production. I don't know... still working on that!
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Christina
-=Somedays he's happy about it and somedays he's stormy.-=
I'm new to all this, so I'll be careful and brief, but this struck me. I'm like this to. For me, it's because of all the conflicting old tapes playing in my mind. I feel radical unschooling is RIGHT for our family, but there are times when fear rears its ugly head and I hear the familiar old, traditional tapes replay. It's a battle in my mind for sure. I keep moving forward,(albeit slowly sometimes), but have occasional setbacks. Sounds like he is trying, but struggling through his own process.
Christina.
I'm new to all this, so I'll be careful and brief, but this struck me. I'm like this to. For me, it's because of all the conflicting old tapes playing in my mind. I feel radical unschooling is RIGHT for our family, but there are times when fear rears its ugly head and I hear the familiar old, traditional tapes replay. It's a battle in my mind for sure. I keep moving forward,(albeit slowly sometimes), but have occasional setbacks. Sounds like he is trying, but struggling through his own process.
Christina.
catfish_friend
-=-Just like getting lots of gifts instead of one big one, if you say "sure," "okay," "yes" to lots of requests (snip), then they get TONS of yes, and permission, and approval. (snip) ...the provider of an assortment of joyous approvals.-=-
Thanks, Sandra, for this. It supports an idea I was having that if my husband could be the one who was saying "yes" more, even if it means continually redirecting the girls to their father to ask permission, he could be the one to say *yes* more. He could be the one to see himself the joy and glee in their faces. The girls could appreciate him more for his kindness and thoughtfulness. I could gently help my husband understand their point of view. Just this afternoon, he asked the girls to turn the TV off to come eat at the table. My 5 year old looked at the time left on her program and said, "But it's almost over." Before my husband could grumble about it, I said sweetly, "She's almost done, do you mind?" To which, of course, he didn't.
I'm beginning to see more specifically how I can help my daughters' relationship to their father be more connected, responsive and sweet. Things that seemed obvious to me are not so obvious to either of them, so briefly and gently sharing what I see that one of them may not seems to help.
Thanks everyone for the discussion.
Ceci
Thanks, Sandra, for this. It supports an idea I was having that if my husband could be the one who was saying "yes" more, even if it means continually redirecting the girls to their father to ask permission, he could be the one to say *yes* more. He could be the one to see himself the joy and glee in their faces. The girls could appreciate him more for his kindness and thoughtfulness. I could gently help my husband understand their point of view. Just this afternoon, he asked the girls to turn the TV off to come eat at the table. My 5 year old looked at the time left on her program and said, "But it's almost over." Before my husband could grumble about it, I said sweetly, "She's almost done, do you mind?" To which, of course, he didn't.
I'm beginning to see more specifically how I can help my daughters' relationship to their father be more connected, responsive and sweet. Things that seemed obvious to me are not so obvious to either of them, so briefly and gently sharing what I see that one of them may not seems to help.
Thanks everyone for the discussion.
Ceci
catfish_friend
--- Was this an abusive relationship in the past? And how have things fundamentally changed since? ---
This is an interesting question and one that made me wish that I were anonymous on this list. There are people here who I see in real life on a regular basis and these are not things I would discuss about my husband in person, so I feel compromised in discussing this.
The only reason I decided to respond to this at all is that I think it is an important question/issue/topic of discussion and there may be others who would benefit from my answer.
Do I feel my husband is abusive? No. Do I think we had some serious issues in the past? Yes.
My family of origin has alcoholism and abuse in it's past. I think I have traces of these issues myself -- not in a way that I am abusive or that i have alcohol issues directly, but in that I tend to have traits towards the type of person in relationship to an abuser or to an alcoholic. What I've learned is that there are choices I can make that help bring out the best in me. While not a direct cause and effect relationship, that choice seems to (more often than not) bring out the better in others. When I make poor choices that repeat or mimic my family's dysfunction, while oddly comfortably familiar, it tends to bring about poor patterns.
I think there are abusers and victims. I also think that both victims and abusers make poor choices that often keep the cycle of abuse alive. Cycles are dynamic and require both parties to continue the pattern -- like the two pedals on a bicycle. Remove one and it is not so easy to keep it going.
I've had to learn how to not be comfortable as a victim. I've had to learn to make better choices (I swear this is one of the best pieces of advice from Sandra to be applied to life in general!) and the more I do it, the better I get at it. Everyone in my family is happier, including my relationships to my family of origin. I don't know if they have changed, but I have and so has my relationship to them.
So, I guess fundamentally, I've changed. My relationships have all changed. It's wonderful and I attribute much of it to learning about unschooling from people here!
Ceci
This is an interesting question and one that made me wish that I were anonymous on this list. There are people here who I see in real life on a regular basis and these are not things I would discuss about my husband in person, so I feel compromised in discussing this.
The only reason I decided to respond to this at all is that I think it is an important question/issue/topic of discussion and there may be others who would benefit from my answer.
Do I feel my husband is abusive? No. Do I think we had some serious issues in the past? Yes.
My family of origin has alcoholism and abuse in it's past. I think I have traces of these issues myself -- not in a way that I am abusive or that i have alcohol issues directly, but in that I tend to have traits towards the type of person in relationship to an abuser or to an alcoholic. What I've learned is that there are choices I can make that help bring out the best in me. While not a direct cause and effect relationship, that choice seems to (more often than not) bring out the better in others. When I make poor choices that repeat or mimic my family's dysfunction, while oddly comfortably familiar, it tends to bring about poor patterns.
I think there are abusers and victims. I also think that both victims and abusers make poor choices that often keep the cycle of abuse alive. Cycles are dynamic and require both parties to continue the pattern -- like the two pedals on a bicycle. Remove one and it is not so easy to keep it going.
I've had to learn how to not be comfortable as a victim. I've had to learn to make better choices (I swear this is one of the best pieces of advice from Sandra to be applied to life in general!) and the more I do it, the better I get at it. Everyone in my family is happier, including my relationships to my family of origin. I don't know if they have changed, but I have and so has my relationship to them.
So, I guess fundamentally, I've changed. My relationships have all changed. It's wonderful and I attribute much of it to learning about unschooling from people here!
Ceci