Am I being neglectful?
Lisa
A little over 1 month ago I withdrew my 11 y.o. daughter from a Montessori school and began deschooling. At the moment, there is a great sense of peace at home. She is learning so much through the computer (she is fascinated by other cultures, geography, languages, music and animals), and we have such wonderful conversations. She is so happy. It is beautiful.
But I am concerned that she does not want to leave the house and only gets out of bed to join in our family meals. She only showers once or twice a week, but does so voluntarily. I do not pressure her as I am hoping this is just a stage. She goes to bed at 4am and sleeps until sometime between 2 and 4pm. I set the bedtime (trying to honor the fact that she is a night owl), otherwise she would go to bed at 9 or 10 am. Every night she asks me if she can stay up all night.
When her sleeping patterns come up in conversation she reminds me she is deschooling(I might have given her too much information, without having done enough research). I then remind her that this is fine for now, but she is practicing today for the adult she will become and that it is my responsibility to ensure her well being. I ask her what does she want her life to look like and she doesn't really care about much yet.
For the moment, it is just the two of us and I am being extremely relaxed about it. We are leaving for NZ in one month and will be away 3 months, so I am taking it as if we are on vacations. But in NZ we will meet up with my partner, Lisa, and although she is educating herself on unschooling, she has expressed her disapproval.
My biggest concern is my daughter's growth and hygiene. Kids need sleep while they are growing, right? But she IS sleeping 10-12 hours a day. Am I being neglectful? Am I being too relaxed about her sleeping and hygiene?
But I am concerned that she does not want to leave the house and only gets out of bed to join in our family meals. She only showers once or twice a week, but does so voluntarily. I do not pressure her as I am hoping this is just a stage. She goes to bed at 4am and sleeps until sometime between 2 and 4pm. I set the bedtime (trying to honor the fact that she is a night owl), otherwise she would go to bed at 9 or 10 am. Every night she asks me if she can stay up all night.
When her sleeping patterns come up in conversation she reminds me she is deschooling(I might have given her too much information, without having done enough research). I then remind her that this is fine for now, but she is practicing today for the adult she will become and that it is my responsibility to ensure her well being. I ask her what does she want her life to look like and she doesn't really care about much yet.
For the moment, it is just the two of us and I am being extremely relaxed about it. We are leaving for NZ in one month and will be away 3 months, so I am taking it as if we are on vacations. But in NZ we will meet up with my partner, Lisa, and although she is educating herself on unschooling, she has expressed her disapproval.
My biggest concern is my daughter's growth and hygiene. Kids need sleep while they are growing, right? But she IS sleeping 10-12 hours a day. Am I being neglectful? Am I being too relaxed about her sleeping and hygiene?
Vicki Dennis
I wonder your reasoning at telling her "no" each night about staying up all
night. What turned 4 am for you into having the same final wall quality
as 9 or 10 pm may have had previously?
10-12 hours of sleep daily is not at all excessive for an 11 year old.
That need is one of my complaints about public schools that start classes
at 7 am (or expect children on a bus by 6 am or even earlier). They are
chronically sleep-deprived.
It might be (you could ask her!) that she wants the experience of staying
up all night but once gaining it might not want to continue to sleep
through periods of the most interesting events. Or to have most of her
waking time during a period when you are sleeping. (Although I am not
positive when you sleep or when you are available to her other than that
you do have wonderful conversations). I think it is a great skill to learn
to determine when one should sleep in order to be awake for preferred
activities or friend availability.
Some adults ( I was one during a few different periods of my life) work
evenings or "graveyard" shifts. My experience was that doing so did
indeed interfere with social life but in some cases in a positive way.
When I had to go to work at 7 am I could not readily socialize with those
who went out until midnight!. Graveyard shift meant that I could sleep in
the morning and early afternoon and then socialize in the dinner hour and
afterward then off to work at 11 pm or midnight!. It is not a valid
concern to say a certain sleep pattern is needed now to prepare for
adulthood.
Will you be with your partner for only the 3 months in New Zealand?
Business partner or life partner? After the 3 months in NZ will you be
apart again? I think it matters in deciding how the three of you interact
during the 3 months. Is it a vacation schedule or plans for permanent
single household?
One last item on re-reading...............if she really does not want to
leave the house (is that an exaggeration?) what is she saying about making
the trip to New Zealand?
vicki
P.S.: short version: 1 month is so little time especially after the super
structure of Montessori (for how many years?). Let her try staying up all
night....perhaps with the proviso that you talk together about how that
works. AND that she must not disturb the sleep of people who wish to sleep
during those hours. If she does not stink or is not doing "dirty" work,
then twice or even once weekly showers are plenty.
night. What turned 4 am for you into having the same final wall quality
as 9 or 10 pm may have had previously?
10-12 hours of sleep daily is not at all excessive for an 11 year old.
That need is one of my complaints about public schools that start classes
at 7 am (or expect children on a bus by 6 am or even earlier). They are
chronically sleep-deprived.
It might be (you could ask her!) that she wants the experience of staying
up all night but once gaining it might not want to continue to sleep
through periods of the most interesting events. Or to have most of her
waking time during a period when you are sleeping. (Although I am not
positive when you sleep or when you are available to her other than that
you do have wonderful conversations). I think it is a great skill to learn
to determine when one should sleep in order to be awake for preferred
activities or friend availability.
Some adults ( I was one during a few different periods of my life) work
evenings or "graveyard" shifts. My experience was that doing so did
indeed interfere with social life but in some cases in a positive way.
When I had to go to work at 7 am I could not readily socialize with those
who went out until midnight!. Graveyard shift meant that I could sleep in
the morning and early afternoon and then socialize in the dinner hour and
afterward then off to work at 11 pm or midnight!. It is not a valid
concern to say a certain sleep pattern is needed now to prepare for
adulthood.
Will you be with your partner for only the 3 months in New Zealand?
Business partner or life partner? After the 3 months in NZ will you be
apart again? I think it matters in deciding how the three of you interact
during the 3 months. Is it a vacation schedule or plans for permanent
single household?
One last item on re-reading...............if she really does not want to
leave the house (is that an exaggeration?) what is she saying about making
the trip to New Zealand?
vicki
P.S.: short version: 1 month is so little time especially after the super
structure of Montessori (for how many years?). Let her try staying up all
night....perhaps with the proviso that you talk together about how that
works. AND that she must not disturb the sleep of people who wish to sleep
during those hours. If she does not stink or is not doing "dirty" work,
then twice or even once weekly showers are plenty.
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 2:26 PM, Lisa <financialdebtsolutions@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> A little over 1 month ago I withdrew my 11 y.o. daughter from a Montessori
> school and began deschooling. At the moment, there is a great sense of
> peace at home. She is learning so much through the computer (she is
> fascinated by other cultures, geography, languages, music and animals), and
> we have such wonderful conversations. She is so happy. It is beautiful.
>
> But I am concerned that she does not want to leave the house and only gets
> out of bed to join in our family meals. She only showers once or twice a
> week, but does so voluntarily. I do not pressure her as I am hoping this is
> just a stage. She goes to bed at 4am and sleeps until sometime between 2
> and 4pm. I set the bedtime (trying to honor the fact that she is a night
> owl), otherwise she would go to bed at 9 or 10 am. Every night she asks me
> if she can stay up all night.
>
> When her sleeping patterns come up in conversation she reminds me she is
> deschooling(I might have given her too much information, without having
> done enough research). I then remind her that this is fine for now, but she
> is practicing today for the adult she will become and that it is my
> responsibility to ensure her well being. I ask her what does she want her
> life to look like and she doesn't really care about much yet.
>
> For the moment, it is just the two of us and I am being extremely relaxed
> about it. We are leaving for NZ in one month and will be away 3 months, so
> I am taking it as if we are on vacations. But in NZ we will meet up with my
> partner, Lisa, and although she is educating herself on unschooling, she
> has expressed her disapproval.
>
> My biggest concern is my daughter's growth and hygiene. Kids need sleep
> while they are growing, right? But she IS sleeping 10-12 hours a day. Am I
> being neglectful? Am I being too relaxed about her sleeping and hygiene?
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-But I am concerned that she does not want to leave the house and only gets out of bed to join in our family meals. She only showers once or twice a week, but does so voluntarily. I do not pressure her as I am hoping this is just a stage.-=-
It's deschooling.
For a long time she was made the get up and leave the house whether she wanted to or not. She might be making up for all those days of powerless hustle. Let her be. She needs to recover.
-=- I set the bedtime (trying to honor the fact that she is a night owl), otherwise she would go to bed at 9 or 10 am. Every night she asks me if she can stay up all night.-=-
if you let her, she won't ask every night. But if you had never had a bedtime, she might never have wanted to stay up all night. My kids never did. People sometimes want what they can't have. Staying up all night must be pretty valuable, because you won't give it to her. 4:00 a.m. is practically all night anyway, so you're being arbitrary. I kind of understand that, but am also trying to point out that it's part of the problem.
I used to tell my oldest to be asleep before his dad went to work. One morning Keith went to work early, Kirby was up on the computer, and Keith only thought it was kind of cute, so after that I didn't care anymore.
-=But in NZ we will meet up with my partner, Lisa, and although she is educating herself on unschooling, she has expressed her disapproval. -=-
There's nothing about unschooling that requires staying up late. It's arbitrary bedtimes that can be a problem. Going to sleep because there's sightseeing to do the next day or because others staying with you want to sleep and you're coordinating schedules is sleeping for a really good reason. Nothing arbitrary about it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It's deschooling.
For a long time she was made the get up and leave the house whether she wanted to or not. She might be making up for all those days of powerless hustle. Let her be. She needs to recover.
-=- I set the bedtime (trying to honor the fact that she is a night owl), otherwise she would go to bed at 9 or 10 am. Every night she asks me if she can stay up all night.-=-
if you let her, she won't ask every night. But if you had never had a bedtime, she might never have wanted to stay up all night. My kids never did. People sometimes want what they can't have. Staying up all night must be pretty valuable, because you won't give it to her. 4:00 a.m. is practically all night anyway, so you're being arbitrary. I kind of understand that, but am also trying to point out that it's part of the problem.
I used to tell my oldest to be asleep before his dad went to work. One morning Keith went to work early, Kirby was up on the computer, and Keith only thought it was kind of cute, so after that I didn't care anymore.
-=But in NZ we will meet up with my partner, Lisa, and although she is educating herself on unschooling, she has expressed her disapproval. -=-
There's nothing about unschooling that requires staying up late. It's arbitrary bedtimes that can be a problem. Going to sleep because there's sightseeing to do the next day or because others staying with you want to sleep and you're coordinating schedules is sleeping for a really good reason. Nothing arbitrary about it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***She only showers once or twice a week, but does so voluntarily. I do not pressure her as I am hoping this is just a stage.***
If she's doing so voluntarily, then you are lucky! Some kids fight it. Once or twice a week is plenty for a pre-pubescent kid. I think most kids bathe more when they get older and sweatier.
***She goes to bed at 4am and sleeps until sometime between 2 and 4pm. I set the bedtime (trying to honor the fact that she is a night owl), otherwise she would go to bed at 9 or 10 am. Every night she asks me if she can stay up all night.***
I don't think that's unusual for that age. That's about when my oldest started shifting her sleep pattern to staying up all night and sleeping much of the day. She is 17 now and recently enrolled in a GED preparation program and chose the morning shift of classes that start at 8am. That surprised me because she will still stay up all night, but for her it wasn't a big deal to shift gears that way.
By allowing her the freedom to make her own sleep schedule, she is able to really feel when she's tired and needs sleep and when she can keep on going and miss some and maybe catch up later. She's not opposed to scheduled sleep times either. I've come to realize that I have some pretty intense hangups around sleep schedules. I was the kid who always wanted to stay up late and was forced to go to bed, not tired in the least. I'd lay awake for hours and hours and then HAVE to get up early. It was hard and I hated mornings for years. I'm just now coming to terms with that pattern. If the choice had been mine, stay up and be tired in the morning, I'm sure I would have found a way to balance my sleep needs better.
If you are going to NZ from anywhere on the other side of the planet, your worries over this might seem silly in a month from now. Time zone changes can shift someone's sleep pattern over night! Staying awake all night might work in her favor and you might be the one who suffers some insomnia for a while!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If she's doing so voluntarily, then you are lucky! Some kids fight it. Once or twice a week is plenty for a pre-pubescent kid. I think most kids bathe more when they get older and sweatier.
***She goes to bed at 4am and sleeps until sometime between 2 and 4pm. I set the bedtime (trying to honor the fact that she is a night owl), otherwise she would go to bed at 9 or 10 am. Every night she asks me if she can stay up all night.***
I don't think that's unusual for that age. That's about when my oldest started shifting her sleep pattern to staying up all night and sleeping much of the day. She is 17 now and recently enrolled in a GED preparation program and chose the morning shift of classes that start at 8am. That surprised me because she will still stay up all night, but for her it wasn't a big deal to shift gears that way.
By allowing her the freedom to make her own sleep schedule, she is able to really feel when she's tired and needs sleep and when she can keep on going and miss some and maybe catch up later. She's not opposed to scheduled sleep times either. I've come to realize that I have some pretty intense hangups around sleep schedules. I was the kid who always wanted to stay up late and was forced to go to bed, not tired in the least. I'd lay awake for hours and hours and then HAVE to get up early. It was hard and I hated mornings for years. I'm just now coming to terms with that pattern. If the choice had been mine, stay up and be tired in the morning, I'm sure I would have found a way to balance my sleep needs better.
If you are going to NZ from anywhere on the other side of the planet, your worries over this might seem silly in a month from now. Time zone changes can shift someone's sleep pattern over night! Staying awake all night might work in her favor and you might be the one who suffers some insomnia for a while!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
> I then remind her that this is fine for now, but she is practicingShe's living the life of an 11 year old *now*. An unschooling 11 year
> today for the adult she will become
old :-)
She's been in school, adhering to someone else's rules for when to go
to bed. Now she's exploring her limits of tiredness and when her body
says she needs to sleep. She's not disturbing you, right?
> I ask her what does she want her life to look like and she doesn'tHer future life will, necessarily, look different. She doesn't have to
> really care about much yet.
care about it much at 11.
I think parents can make the mistake of always trying to prepare their
children for eventualities that might never happen. What if she ends
up working the graveyard shift and you've made her get up at 6 a.m.
every morning to prepare for a daytime career? Oops.
Children, as they get older and they've been provided with useful
information and choices, realize what responsibility entails.
Unschooling kids are the absolute best at figuring that out by knowing
what's important to get up/stay up for, the amount of sleep they
really need, and how to adjust their schedules.
>Her disapproval of unschooling? Or her disapproval of late nights?
> For the moment, it is just the two of us and I am being extremely
> relaxed about it. We are leaving for NZ in one month and will be
> away 3 months, so I am taking it as if we are on vacations. But in
> NZ we will meet up with my partner, Lisa, and although she is
> educating herself on unschooling, she has expressed her disapproval.
> Kids need sleep while they are growing, right? But she IS sleepingKids her age need that much sleep. And as kids move into teen years,
> 10-12 hours a day.
their bodies often need a different sleep schedule (late nights, late
mornings). Many teenagers in school are chronically sleep-deprived.
Unschooled kids aren't!
Robin B.
Meredith
Probably not neglectful... maybe a little pushy, though.
"Lisa" <financialdebtsolutions@...> wrote:
She's kind of right - it's only been a month. And you're still setting a bedtime, so it will take her longer to "deschool" from the limits you're setting. But she's only "kind of" right because natural sleep cycles can change at different times of life. Right now, it may be natural for her to stay up later. If there are reasons for her to be up during the day - reasons which are good to her - she'll adjust.
If she needs that much sleep, will depriving her of it do any good at all? If you think she has some kind of fatigue problem, that's a little different - does she seem like she's lethargic? Does she have trouble focusing on things she finds interesting and important? You could offer her more vitamin D and maybe B vitamins if you're really worried and see if it helps, but it could be she needs a lot of rest right now. It could also be she's spending some of that time daydreaming - and that's really a good thing, especially if she went to a school which didn't encourage a lot of flights of fancy (Montessori schools have a bit of a reputation for zero tolerance of fantasy). It's normal for tweens and young teens to do a lot of daydreaming anyway, and if she's had a lack of fantasy in her life, she may be playing catch up!
Eeeeek! Go apologize and tell her You're still deschooling too and will take a lot longer than she will. That's a Horrible thing to tell another human being. She's not practicing anything, she's living her life and learning about herself and the world. Are you practicing to be an old lady?
Spend time with her. Bring food to where she is and eat with her there. Bring projects for yourself so you can hang out with her for a big chunk of time, if she's doing something uninteresting to you. Enjoy her company. See her as she is right now - the shape of her face, the way she smiles, what interests her and what she enjoys.
If the trouble is you're not seeing enough of her, say that. Come up with some ideas to spend more time together. Maybe you can stay up later or get up earlier! Maybe you can plan things to do in the evenings - lots of fun outings to be had after dark! That could help her get up and moving, too, if part of the problem is there's not much to do once the sun goes down. Make night time fun time!
Good for her! It's not good to get too bogged down planning one's life instead of living it, and she's only 10. How can she possibly know what her life will look like at 20? That's a lifetime from now, in her terms.
I could not have guessed what my life looks like now when I was 10. Never in a million years. I couldn't have guessed ten years ago what my life would be today. I've had a lot of changes in my life! Settling down into one thing, career or life plan, hasn't really worked for me - life keeps throwing me curves! I can look at what I'm doing now and say "I learned this here and that there" but I wasn't preparing for anything when I learned to sew or make cheese or had a baby - I was living, and all those things have become part of what I know, part of how I understand the world. What will I be doing ten years from now? I'm looking forward to finding out!
---Meredith
"Lisa" <financialdebtsolutions@...> wrote:
>> When her sleeping patterns come up in conversation she reminds me she is deschooling***************
She's kind of right - it's only been a month. And you're still setting a bedtime, so it will take her longer to "deschool" from the limits you're setting. But she's only "kind of" right because natural sleep cycles can change at different times of life. Right now, it may be natural for her to stay up later. If there are reasons for her to be up during the day - reasons which are good to her - she'll adjust.
>Kids need sleep while they are growing, right? But she IS sleeping 10-12 hours a day.**************
If she needs that much sleep, will depriving her of it do any good at all? If you think she has some kind of fatigue problem, that's a little different - does she seem like she's lethargic? Does she have trouble focusing on things she finds interesting and important? You could offer her more vitamin D and maybe B vitamins if you're really worried and see if it helps, but it could be she needs a lot of rest right now. It could also be she's spending some of that time daydreaming - and that's really a good thing, especially if she went to a school which didn't encourage a lot of flights of fancy (Montessori schools have a bit of a reputation for zero tolerance of fantasy). It's normal for tweens and young teens to do a lot of daydreaming anyway, and if she's had a lack of fantasy in her life, she may be playing catch up!
>>I then remind her that this is fine for now, but she is practicing today for the adult she will become***************
Eeeeek! Go apologize and tell her You're still deschooling too and will take a lot longer than she will. That's a Horrible thing to tell another human being. She's not practicing anything, she's living her life and learning about herself and the world. Are you practicing to be an old lady?
Spend time with her. Bring food to where she is and eat with her there. Bring projects for yourself so you can hang out with her for a big chunk of time, if she's doing something uninteresting to you. Enjoy her company. See her as she is right now - the shape of her face, the way she smiles, what interests her and what she enjoys.
>>and that it is my responsibility to ensure her well being.If she needs to sleep, then making sure she gets enough sleep is what will ensure her well being ;) Is there some Other problem with her hours?
If the trouble is you're not seeing enough of her, say that. Come up with some ideas to spend more time together. Maybe you can stay up later or get up earlier! Maybe you can plan things to do in the evenings - lots of fun outings to be had after dark! That could help her get up and moving, too, if part of the problem is there's not much to do once the sun goes down. Make night time fun time!
>>I ask her what does she want her life to look like and she doesn't really care about much yet.****************
Good for her! It's not good to get too bogged down planning one's life instead of living it, and she's only 10. How can she possibly know what her life will look like at 20? That's a lifetime from now, in her terms.
I could not have guessed what my life looks like now when I was 10. Never in a million years. I couldn't have guessed ten years ago what my life would be today. I've had a lot of changes in my life! Settling down into one thing, career or life plan, hasn't really worked for me - life keeps throwing me curves! I can look at what I'm doing now and say "I learned this here and that there" but I wasn't preparing for anything when I learned to sew or make cheese or had a baby - I was living, and all those things have become part of what I know, part of how I understand the world. What will I be doing ten years from now? I'm looking forward to finding out!
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-> I ask her what does she want her life to look like and she doesn't
care about it much at 11.-=-
======================
Yes. Her life IS what it is.
Lives become better by making choices, gradually and increasingly, for good reasons.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
-=- I then remind her that this is fine for now, but she is practicing
today for the adult she will become-=-
People don't need to practice for life.
They *live* life.
http://sandradodd.com/being
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> really care about much yet.Her future life will, necessarily, look different. She doesn't have to
care about it much at 11.-=-
======================
Yes. Her life IS what it is.
Lives become better by making choices, gradually and increasingly, for good reasons.
http://sandradodd.com/choices
-=- I then remind her that this is fine for now, but she is practicing
today for the adult she will become-=-
People don't need to practice for life.
They *live* life.
http://sandradodd.com/being
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 25, 2012, at 3:26 PM, Lisa wrote:
Current society is rife with disrespect for childhood. Like kids are merely gestating adults.
Each day is a she is living the real life of an 11 year old. She's just as much a real person today as she will be next year or 10 years from now. Her likes and wants and needs are those of her right now self, not immature wrong needs that she must work at correcting until they match up with what adults need.
Each day she will grow and change and her likes and wants and needs will change to reflect that.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> she is practicing today for the adult she will becomeIs your life now practice for the old lady you'll become. Will your life as an old lady be practice for death?
Current society is rife with disrespect for childhood. Like kids are merely gestating adults.
Each day is a she is living the real life of an 11 year old. She's just as much a real person today as she will be next year or 10 years from now. Her likes and wants and needs are those of her right now self, not immature wrong needs that she must work at correcting until they match up with what adults need.
Each day she will grow and change and her likes and wants and needs will change to reflect that.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa
--- In [email protected], Vicki Dennis <vicki@...> wrote:
Lisa is my life partner. We travel frequently because because Lisa is British and we are American. We are all meeting in NZ. In August Angelina and I return to Fl. Lisa will join us in October for 3 months, then we will all fly to the UK for 6 months. We consider ourselves a family unit, although we spend periods of 1 or 3 months at a time apart.
> I wonder your reasoning at telling her "no" each night about staying up all night.This idea that I have in my head that the body recovers at night. Can't exactly tell you where I got that idea from but right about now it's sounding pretty silly. :-)
>What turned 4 am for you into having the same final wall quality as 9 or 10 pm may have had previously?When she was in school, her weekend bedtime was Fri 2am and Sat 12am, in preparation for Sun - Thu 10pm. So I just gave her 2 more hours because she kept asking for more time.
> 10-12 hours of sleep daily is not at all excessive for an 11 year old.The way I wrote it came across the wrong way. I was actually questioning my own question. It was more of a statement that she is indeed sleeping 10 - 12 hours and I believe that is good so perhaps her growth is not being affected.
> Will you be with your partner for only the 3 months in New Zealand?Business partner or life partner? After the 3 months in NZ will you be apart again? I think it matters in deciding how the three of you interact during the 3 months. Is it a vacation schedule or plans for permanent single household.
Lisa is my life partner. We travel frequently because because Lisa is British and we are American. We are all meeting in NZ. In August Angelina and I return to Fl. Lisa will join us in October for 3 months, then we will all fly to the UK for 6 months. We consider ourselves a family unit, although we spend periods of 1 or 3 months at a time apart.
> One last item on re-reading...............if she really does not want to leave the house (is that an exaggeration?) what is she saying about making the trip to New Zealand?No really, it's not an exaggeration. I must disclose that I am a homebody as well. I only leave the house when I have to. We love our home. But when we travel, we live the experience fully. She is excited about going to NZ and exploring. She says she will have no problems going to bed and waking early. I believe her. She is a very determined child.
> P.S.: short version: 1 month is so little time especially after the super structure of Montessori (for how many years?). Let her try staying up all night....perhaps with the proviso that you talk together about how that works. AND that she must not disturb the sleep of people who wish to sleep during those hours.She is so good about not disturbing when I/We retire for the night.
Lisa
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
You are absolutely right. I guess we are both deschooling, but I probably need it more than she does. She is super smart, creative, curious, funny, light hearted, intuitive and perfectly healthy and happy. I'm just going to relax and enjoy my child and focus on being an active participant in HER life. Thank you, Sandra and all who have taken the time to share your insight and wisdom. I appreciate you.
Lisa Zapantis
>
> -=-But I am concerned that she does not want to leave the house and only gets out of bed to join in our family meals. She only showers once or twice a week, but does so voluntarily. I do not pressure her as I am hoping this is just a stage.-=-
>
> It's deschooling.
> For a long time she was made the get up and leave the house whether she wanted to or not. She might be making up for all those days of powerless hustle. Let her be. She needs to recover.
>
> -=- I set the bedtime (trying to honor the fact that she is a night owl), otherwise she would go to bed at 9 or 10 am. Every night she asks me if she can stay up all night.-=-
>
> if you let her, she won't ask every night. But if you had never had a bedtime, she might never have wanted to stay up all night. My kids never did. People sometimes want what they can't have. Staying up all night must be pretty valuable, because you won't give it to her. 4:00 a.m. is practically all night anyway, so you're being arbitrary. I kind of understand that, but am also trying to point out that it's part of the problem.
>
> I used to tell my oldest to be asleep before his dad went to work. One morning Keith went to work early, Kirby was up on the computer, and Keith only thought it was kind of cute, so after that I didn't care anymore.
>
> -=But in NZ we will meet up with my partner, Lisa, and although she is educating herself on unschooling, she has expressed her disapproval. -=-
>
> There's nothing about unschooling that requires staying up late. It's arbitrary bedtimes that can be a problem. Going to sleep because there's sightseeing to do the next day or because others staying with you want to sleep and you're coordinating schedules is sleeping for a really good reason. Nothing arbitrary about it.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Lovelyjessie82
When I was about 10 or 11, I didn't want to take baths because they were a nuisance. �It was summer vacation, and my parents didn't say one word about it even though I know that they could tell. �I was playing with my friends one day and one of them asked if my hair was wet (it was that greasy!). �I went home early and took a bath, and have bathed regularly ever since. :)
chris ester
Hi,
I have two teens (13 yo girl and 15yo boy), that have always been educated
at home and we have unschooled for quite a few years now.
At the age of 11 she is heading for, or in the throws of, adolescence. I
found one decent article on adolescents and sleep cycles (the citation is
below). The only point that I would disagree with is that they stated that
teens will needs "as much as" 9 hours a night. This makes it sound as
though 9 hours is an outside number for hours of sleep. My kids actually
slept as much as 13 or 14 hours some days when they were in the midst of a
major growth spurt. So, I wouldn't think that 10- 12 hours a night is out
of the ordinary.
I too am curious why 4 am is the deadline for going to bed. She will
probably be a night owl for the next couple of years. My kids seem to be
in the process of leveling off now. They go to bed around 1 or 2 am and
wake around 11am. They can change this when there is a field trip or
something that requires them to get up early, but otherwise we have a late
schedule. Is there a reason to get up earlier and so go to bed earlier?
If so, is it valid to your daughter, or is it reasoning that has no meaning
to her? Obviously she thinks that it is important to join family meals. I
think that that is a good sign.
As far as hygiene goes... if she smells bad, I would tell her in a straight
forward, but polite way that she seems to need a bath. My kids usually are
pretty good at judging their need to bathe, but will occasionally not
realize that they smell "gamey" and I will let them know. I think that it
is only common courtesy to let them know so that they aren't embarrassed
outside of our home. I still let them decide to bathe or not, though I
once had to ask my son (a couple of years back) to bathe because he was
really malodorous and we were going out. It was allergy season and he
hadn't taken any meds for it and couldn't smell himself. When he showered,
the steam cleared his sinuses and he could smell how bad he was and was
actually appalled that he neglected himself for so long.
As for leaving the house... she is probably enjoying the freedom to stay
home. I am only guessing because my kids have not generally avoided going
out.
I love that you say that she is happy.
Chris
I have two teens (13 yo girl and 15yo boy), that have always been educated
at home and we have unschooled for quite a few years now.
At the age of 11 she is heading for, or in the throws of, adolescence. I
found one decent article on adolescents and sleep cycles (the citation is
below). The only point that I would disagree with is that they stated that
teens will needs "as much as" 9 hours a night. This makes it sound as
though 9 hours is an outside number for hours of sleep. My kids actually
slept as much as 13 or 14 hours some days when they were in the midst of a
major growth spurt. So, I wouldn't think that 10- 12 hours a night is out
of the ordinary.
I too am curious why 4 am is the deadline for going to bed. She will
probably be a night owl for the next couple of years. My kids seem to be
in the process of leveling off now. They go to bed around 1 or 2 am and
wake around 11am. They can change this when there is a field trip or
something that requires them to get up early, but otherwise we have a late
schedule. Is there a reason to get up earlier and so go to bed earlier?
If so, is it valid to your daughter, or is it reasoning that has no meaning
to her? Obviously she thinks that it is important to join family meals. I
think that that is a good sign.
As far as hygiene goes... if she smells bad, I would tell her in a straight
forward, but polite way that she seems to need a bath. My kids usually are
pretty good at judging their need to bathe, but will occasionally not
realize that they smell "gamey" and I will let them know. I think that it
is only common courtesy to let them know so that they aren't embarrassed
outside of our home. I still let them decide to bathe or not, though I
once had to ask my son (a couple of years back) to bathe because he was
really malodorous and we were going out. It was allergy season and he
hadn't taken any meds for it and couldn't smell himself. When he showered,
the steam cleared his sinuses and he could smell how bad he was and was
actually appalled that he neglected himself for so long.
As for leaving the house... she is probably enjoying the freedom to stay
home. I am only guessing because my kids have not generally avoided going
out.
I love that you say that she is happy.
Chris
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Lisa <financialdebtsolutions@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> A little over 1 month ago I withdrew my 11 y.o. daughter from a Montessori
> school and began deschooling. At the moment, there is a great sense of
> peace at home. She is learning so much through the computer (she is
> fascinated by other cultures, geography, languages, music and animals), and
> we have such wonderful conversations. She is so happy. It is beautiful.
>
> But I am concerned that she does not want to leave the house and only gets
> out of bed to join in our family meals. She only showers once or twice a
> week, but does so voluntarily. I do not pressure her as I am hoping this is
> just a stage. She goes to bed at 4am and sleeps until sometime between 2
> and 4pm. I set the bedtime (trying to honor the fact that she is a night
> owl), otherwise she would go to bed at 9 or 10 am. Every night she asks me
> if she can stay up all night.
>
> When her sleeping patterns come up in conversation she reminds me she is
> deschooling(I might have given her too much information, without having
> done enough research). I then remind her that this is fine for now, but she
> is practicing today for the adult she will become and that it is my
> responsibility to ensure her well being. I ask her what does she want her
> life to look like and she doesn't really care about much yet.
>
> For the moment, it is just the two of us and I am being extremely relaxed
> about it. We are leaving for NZ in one month and will be away 3 months, so
> I am taking it as if we are on vacations. But in NZ we will meet up with my
> partner, Lisa, and although she is educating herself on unschooling, she
> has expressed her disapproval.
>
> My biggest concern is my daughter's growth and hygiene. Kids need sleep
> while they are growing, right? But she IS sleeping 10-12 hours a day. Am I
> being neglectful? Am I being too relaxed about her sleeping and hygiene?
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 11:24 PM, chris ester <chris.homeschool@...>wrote:
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/teens-health/CC00019
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>>>> I found one decent article on adolescents and sleep cycles (theSorry, here is the article
> citation is below). The only point that I would disagree with is that they
> stated that teens will needs "as much as" 9 hours a night.<<<<<
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/teens-health/CC00019
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lyla Wolfenstein
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 8:24 PM, chris ester <chris.homeschool@...>wrote:
old will often still sleep 10-12 hours (though can do ok with less for a
while) and my 13 year old regularly sleeps 10-12 hours (and can do ok with
less for a few days.)
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Hi,my teens need much more than 9 hours ongoing as well! my nearly 17 year
> I have two teens (13 yo girl and 15yo boy), that have always been educated
> at home and we have unschooled for quite a few years now.
>
> At the age of 11 she is heading for, or in the throws of, adolescence. I
> found one decent article on adolescents and sleep cycles (the citation is
> below). The only point that I would disagree with is that they stated that
> teens will needs "as much as" 9 hours a night. This makes it sound as
> though 9 hours is an outside number for hours of sleep.
old will often still sleep 10-12 hours (though can do ok with less for a
while) and my 13 year old regularly sleeps 10-12 hours (and can do ok with
less for a few days.)
lyla
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Sun, Mar 25, 2012 at 11:42 PM, Lyla Wolfenstein <lylaw@...>wrote:
hours a night and all of the schooled children that I know never get more
than 7 or 8 hours of sleep most nights. The interesting
part is that most of the parents that I know (regardless of educational
situation) believe that their children are getting enough sleep.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **that I know have children that sleep at LEAST 9
>
>
> >>>my teens need much more than 9 hours ongoing as well! my nearly 17 year
> old will often still sleep 10-12 hours (though can do ok with less for a
> while) and my 13 year old regularly sleeps 10-12 hours (and can do ok with
> less for a few days.)
>
> lyla<<<
>
> I have noticed that most of the homeschoolers and all of the unschoolers
hours a night and all of the schooled children that I know never get more
than 7 or 8 hours of sleep most nights. The interesting
part is that most of the parents that I know (regardless of educational
situation) believe that their children are getting enough sleep.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa
--- In [email protected], Robin Bentley <robin.bentley@...> wrote:
>Lisa has expressed her disapproval of Angelina's sleeping patterns as well as the fact that she is not required to do chores. However, this discussion, along with the research that she has been doing, has been incredibly helpful to her. Well, to both of us, because I am now so much clearer about the process.
>
> Her disapproval of unschooling? Or her disapproval of late nights?
Lisa
Talk about a reality check!!! Total shift in consciousness. This has been the biggest wake up call. I see how my philosophies and actions have been so contradicting. In one hand, I've always taken pride in having such a respectful, open, relaxed and connected relationship with my child. On the other hand, I see how I am being pushy about my perceived responsibilities, thus being disrespectful of her process and disregarding her continued attempt at giving me a clue that she is quite capable of finding balance naturally. Humbled!
This brings to the forefront an underlying issue.
This brings to the forefront an underlying issue.
--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> Probably not neglectful... maybe a little pushy, though.
>
> "Lisa" <financialdebtsolutions@> wrote:
> >> When her sleeping patterns come up in conversation she reminds me she is deschooling
> ***************
>
> She's kind of right - it's only been a month. And you're still setting a bedtime, so it will take her longer to "deschool" from the limits you're setting. But she's only "kind of" right because natural sleep cycles can change at different times of life. Right now, it may be natural for her to stay up later. If there are reasons for her to be up during the day - reasons which are good to her - she'll adjust.
>
> >Kids need sleep while they are growing, right? But she IS sleeping 10-12 hours a day.
> **************
>
> If she needs that much sleep, will depriving her of it do any good at all? If you think she has some kind of fatigue problem, that's a little different - does she seem like she's lethargic? Does she have trouble focusing on things she finds interesting and important? You could offer her more vitamin D and maybe B vitamins if you're really worried and see if it helps, but it could be she needs a lot of rest right now. It could also be she's spending some of that time daydreaming - and that's really a good thing, especially if she went to a school which didn't encourage a lot of flights of fancy (Montessori schools have a bit of a reputation for zero tolerance of fantasy). It's normal for tweens and young teens to do a lot of daydreaming anyway, and if she's had a lack of fantasy in her life, she may be playing catch up!
>
> >>I then remind her that this is fine for now, but she is practicing today for the adult she will become
> ***************
>
> Eeeeek! Go apologize and tell her You're still deschooling too and will take a lot longer than she will. That's a Horrible thing to tell another human being. She's not practicing anything, she's living her life and learning about herself and the world. Are you practicing to be an old lady?
>
> Spend time with her. Bring food to where she is and eat with her there. Bring projects for yourself so you can hang out with her for a big chunk of time, if she's doing something uninteresting to you. Enjoy her company. See her as she is right now - the shape of her face, the way she smiles, what interests her and what she enjoys.
>
> >>and that it is my responsibility to ensure her well being.
>
> If she needs to sleep, then making sure she gets enough sleep is what will ensure her well being ;) Is there some Other problem with her hours?
>
> If the trouble is you're not seeing enough of her, say that. Come up with some ideas to spend more time together. Maybe you can stay up later or get up earlier! Maybe you can plan things to do in the evenings - lots of fun outings to be had after dark! That could help her get up and moving, too, if part of the problem is there's not much to do once the sun goes down. Make night time fun time!
>
> >>I ask her what does she want her life to look like and she doesn't really care about much yet.
> ****************
>
> Good for her! It's not good to get too bogged down planning one's life instead of living it, and she's only 10. How can she possibly know what her life will look like at 20? That's a lifetime from now, in her terms.
>
> I could not have guessed what my life looks like now when I was 10. Never in a million years. I couldn't have guessed ten years ago what my life would be today. I've had a lot of changes in my life! Settling down into one thing, career or life plan, hasn't really worked for me - life keeps throwing me curves! I can look at what I'm doing now and say "I learned this here and that there" but I wasn't preparing for anything when I learned to sew or make cheese or had a baby - I was living, and all those things have become part of what I know, part of how I understand the world. What will I be doing ten years from now? I'm looking forward to finding out!
>
> ---Meredith
>
odiniella
--- In [email protected], "Lisa"
<financialdebtsolutions@...> wrote:
have been so contradicting. In one hand, I've always taken pride in
having such a respectful, open, relaxed and connected relationship with
my child. On the other hand, I see how I am being pushy about my
perceived responsibilities, thus being disrespectful of her process and
disregarding her continued attempt at giving me a clue that she is quite
capable of finding balance naturally. Humbled!
________One of the most enjoyable things I've experienced since
unschooling is watching my kids learn the skills they'll need for
adulthood without imposing on them habits that worked for me. I think
it's because they've learned how to pay attention to details in their
environment and respond accordingly (they found other skills more
valuable in traditional school). How do they learn to respond? Lot's
of it is experience - trial and error. Lots of watching others (what
works, what doesn't). Lots of advice. They know their father and I
have nothing to gain by convincing them to do something. Our advice is
just that - advice.
For the record, I have a 12 yo who routinely stays up until 2-4 every
night. He probably sleeps 10-12 hours. Every once in a while there is
something valuable for him in the morning and he jumps out of bed. As
he gets older I expect his interests to change, and his sleeping habits
to accommodate his needs as they mature.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<financialdebtsolutions@...> wrote:
>been the biggest wake up call. I see how my philosophies and actions
> Talk about a reality check!!! Total shift in consciousness. This has
have been so contradicting. In one hand, I've always taken pride in
having such a respectful, open, relaxed and connected relationship with
my child. On the other hand, I see how I am being pushy about my
perceived responsibilities, thus being disrespectful of her process and
disregarding her continued attempt at giving me a clue that she is quite
capable of finding balance naturally. Humbled!
________One of the most enjoyable things I've experienced since
unschooling is watching my kids learn the skills they'll need for
adulthood without imposing on them habits that worked for me. I think
it's because they've learned how to pay attention to details in their
environment and respond accordingly (they found other skills more
valuable in traditional school). How do they learn to respond? Lot's
of it is experience - trial and error. Lots of watching others (what
works, what doesn't). Lots of advice. They know their father and I
have nothing to gain by convincing them to do something. Our advice is
just that - advice.
For the record, I have a 12 yo who routinely stays up until 2-4 every
night. He probably sleeps 10-12 hours. Every once in a while there is
something valuable for him in the morning and he jumps out of bed. As
he gets older I expect his interests to change, and his sleeping habits
to accommodate his needs as they mature.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa
--- In [email protected], "odiniella" <hgaimari@...> wrote:
I am so excited about the journey that we, as a family, are embarking on. A journey of fascination with life.
> ________One of the most enjoyable things I've experienced sinceThis is very powerful. Especially since as adults we often impose habits that HAVEN'T worked for us. On several occasions I've asked friends to trace back the origins of the rules they impose on their children. They mostly come from their childhood experiences and 99% of the time they hated the rules. Yet we continue to impose them (myself included). They seem to find value in having had a relatively unhappy/unfulfilled childhood just because they turned out "ok", implying that these rules were necessary in order for us to become "ok" adults. But what I see lacking in most that have turned out "ok" is joy, a sense of purpose and fascination with life.
> unschooling is watching my kids learn the skills they'll need for
> adulthood without imposing on them habits that worked for me.
I am so excited about the journey that we, as a family, are embarking on. A journey of fascination with life.