Torment?
Kathryn
Hi All --
My kids Mia (10), Jude (7) and Rueben (4) have never been to school. We have been unschooling for around 6 years now, and certain issues are proving to be Really Hard for me to apply better choices. I'm not able to See better choices, I should say.
Jude is highly energetic. At times, all three play with words, voices, loudness, etc, and all are giggling. Usually, they will pick apart dialogue from a TV show or movie, and repeat the sentence. It is common for them to play this when in the lounge, whilst one kiddie is on the computer, maybe one playing XBox and the other watching. Jude will start to get physically in their face; more loud and playfully roll at them. A lot of phsyical contact. The other two find this annoying, and quickly the game turns into 'STOP, Jude!'. He doesn't. He will continue to jump, roll, be in their personal space and get even louder. This often escalates into agression and upset by both/either Mia or Rueben (depending on which one has been targeted). Mia will lose her temper, and often hit in frustration. Jude still is giggling away, playing, until he actually gets hurt. When he gets hurt, he then lashes out, both physcially and verbally. It then becomes a battle of who gets the last word, rude gesture, etc, and tempers flare. Mia gets Really frustrated, because she Wants to play with him at times, but doesn't want the rough and tumble aspect.
I am almost Always present. I take part in the silly word/voice game with them; I See Jude get more energetic and in their face. I'll say things like, 'settle down mate, she's not liking that,' but it's like he gets in overdrive and doesn't want to hear me. I may as well Not be there, because my intervention is ignored. I physically have to pick him up and hold him to both protect himself and the other sibling from physical hurt. He Hates this. I don't like restraining him either. For a little guy, he's strong! How do I get him to stop?
When he is in a calm mood, I talk to him about his Need to stop when asked to. That it is game over when Mia/Rueben ask him to stop.
We Often go out most days, as I understand he Needs the external stimulation; to be taken Out of his familiar environment. But often we Want to stay home and enjoy what is Here. We have a trampoline, slide, hanging ladder rope and Huge swing out back. Out the back gate we have a footy oval, BMX track, small tree thickets, and a p/ground. There is Loads to do right here, and I am with him/them every step of the way. I don't know what more to offer him. I thought perhaps he could Do something physical in the lounge that doesn't involve throwing/rolling himself into his siblings. He has a Big exercise ball which he balances/play on, but he ends up rolling That into them!
Anyway, my response to all this has Not been all that good of late. I'm so uptight; anticipating the inevitable. Mia is miserable at times, because she just wants to Chill. She has the right to, and I feel for her. Her resentment and anger continue to grow, as she just wants him to Stop when asked to. Rueben will Scream at Jude whenever he does the slightest thing he doesn't like. He learnt very quickly that his words will not be heard. I feel I have exhausted all my options to make life Better for them all. I don't know how to accomodate their needs in this regard, and I'm tired of continually being 'on'. I'm stressed out!! Help!!
Kathryn
My kids Mia (10), Jude (7) and Rueben (4) have never been to school. We have been unschooling for around 6 years now, and certain issues are proving to be Really Hard for me to apply better choices. I'm not able to See better choices, I should say.
Jude is highly energetic. At times, all three play with words, voices, loudness, etc, and all are giggling. Usually, they will pick apart dialogue from a TV show or movie, and repeat the sentence. It is common for them to play this when in the lounge, whilst one kiddie is on the computer, maybe one playing XBox and the other watching. Jude will start to get physically in their face; more loud and playfully roll at them. A lot of phsyical contact. The other two find this annoying, and quickly the game turns into 'STOP, Jude!'. He doesn't. He will continue to jump, roll, be in their personal space and get even louder. This often escalates into agression and upset by both/either Mia or Rueben (depending on which one has been targeted). Mia will lose her temper, and often hit in frustration. Jude still is giggling away, playing, until he actually gets hurt. When he gets hurt, he then lashes out, both physcially and verbally. It then becomes a battle of who gets the last word, rude gesture, etc, and tempers flare. Mia gets Really frustrated, because she Wants to play with him at times, but doesn't want the rough and tumble aspect.
I am almost Always present. I take part in the silly word/voice game with them; I See Jude get more energetic and in their face. I'll say things like, 'settle down mate, she's not liking that,' but it's like he gets in overdrive and doesn't want to hear me. I may as well Not be there, because my intervention is ignored. I physically have to pick him up and hold him to both protect himself and the other sibling from physical hurt. He Hates this. I don't like restraining him either. For a little guy, he's strong! How do I get him to stop?
When he is in a calm mood, I talk to him about his Need to stop when asked to. That it is game over when Mia/Rueben ask him to stop.
We Often go out most days, as I understand he Needs the external stimulation; to be taken Out of his familiar environment. But often we Want to stay home and enjoy what is Here. We have a trampoline, slide, hanging ladder rope and Huge swing out back. Out the back gate we have a footy oval, BMX track, small tree thickets, and a p/ground. There is Loads to do right here, and I am with him/them every step of the way. I don't know what more to offer him. I thought perhaps he could Do something physical in the lounge that doesn't involve throwing/rolling himself into his siblings. He has a Big exercise ball which he balances/play on, but he ends up rolling That into them!
Anyway, my response to all this has Not been all that good of late. I'm so uptight; anticipating the inevitable. Mia is miserable at times, because she just wants to Chill. She has the right to, and I feel for her. Her resentment and anger continue to grow, as she just wants him to Stop when asked to. Rueben will Scream at Jude whenever he does the slightest thing he doesn't like. He learnt very quickly that his words will not be heard. I feel I have exhausted all my options to make life Better for them all. I don't know how to accomodate their needs in this regard, and I'm tired of continually being 'on'. I'm stressed out!! Help!!
Kathryn
Sandra Dodd
-=-Jude will start to get physically in their face; more loud and playfully roll at them. A lot of phsyical contact. The other two find this annoying, and quickly the game turns into 'STOP, Jude!'. He doesn't-=-
I used to tell my kids the second they turned irritating, "It's only playing if everyone's playing," or "Kirby's not playing."
It meant "stop," but it was the reason for the stopping. They were not in the realm of interaction; they were in the realm of bugging, harrassment, torment.
-=-This often escalates into agression and upset by both/either Mia or Rueben (depending on which one has been targeted). Mia will lose her temper, and often hit in frustration. Jude still is giggling away, playing, until he actually gets hurt.-=-
You said you're there, but you're not. If it got to the point that someone was frustrated enough to hit, they were left on their own too long.
-=- I'll say things like, 'settle down mate, she's not liking that,' but it's like he gets in overdrive and doesn't want to hear me. I may as well Not be there, because my intervention is ignored. I physically have to pick him up and hold him to both protect himself and the other sibling from physical hurt. He Hates this. I don't like restraining him either. For a little guy, he's strong! How do I get him to stop? -=-
Try "STOP" instead of "settle down mate, she's not liking that," maybe.
and stage two, "I said STOP."
Get between him and what he's looking at and stare him down. Use primate behavior to remind him he's not the boss, he's not the biggest, and that you have an obligation to protect the other kids.
-=- I'm tired of continually being 'on'. I'm stressed out!! Help!! -=-
What about a water spray bottle, and a joke that it's to tame him or to hypnotize him or something. Like people spray a cat. Maybe he would thin, it was fun. Maybe it would be a reminder while still being kind of a joke, or amusing (unless he is NOT amused, then it's "it's only playing if everyone's playing").
Would it help to invite another rougher kid to play with him? To run and climb and play on the trampoline? Doesn't need to be his age. Or maybe hire an older kid to play rough with him, run, jump.
He won't always be seven. It might just seem like it for a while.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I used to tell my kids the second they turned irritating, "It's only playing if everyone's playing," or "Kirby's not playing."
It meant "stop," but it was the reason for the stopping. They were not in the realm of interaction; they were in the realm of bugging, harrassment, torment.
-=-This often escalates into agression and upset by both/either Mia or Rueben (depending on which one has been targeted). Mia will lose her temper, and often hit in frustration. Jude still is giggling away, playing, until he actually gets hurt.-=-
You said you're there, but you're not. If it got to the point that someone was frustrated enough to hit, they were left on their own too long.
-=- I'll say things like, 'settle down mate, she's not liking that,' but it's like he gets in overdrive and doesn't want to hear me. I may as well Not be there, because my intervention is ignored. I physically have to pick him up and hold him to both protect himself and the other sibling from physical hurt. He Hates this. I don't like restraining him either. For a little guy, he's strong! How do I get him to stop? -=-
Try "STOP" instead of "settle down mate, she's not liking that," maybe.
and stage two, "I said STOP."
Get between him and what he's looking at and stare him down. Use primate behavior to remind him he's not the boss, he's not the biggest, and that you have an obligation to protect the other kids.
-=- I'm tired of continually being 'on'. I'm stressed out!! Help!! -=-
What about a water spray bottle, and a joke that it's to tame him or to hypnotize him or something. Like people spray a cat. Maybe he would thin, it was fun. Maybe it would be a reminder while still being kind of a joke, or amusing (unless he is NOT amused, then it's "it's only playing if everyone's playing").
Would it help to invite another rougher kid to play with him? To run and climb and play on the trampoline? Doesn't need to be his age. Or maybe hire an older kid to play rough with him, run, jump.
He won't always be seven. It might just seem like it for a while.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Maybe "get a grownup's help" would work in those cases, too. Maybe.
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
Jo Isaac
Sandra said ==Would it help to invite another rougher kid to play with him? To run and climb and play on the trampoline? Doesn't need to be his age. Or maybe hire an older kid to play rough with him, run, jump==
I wish we were closer Kathryn - Kai would be perfect for that, he loved playing with Jude when we were there!
Kai does similar things, torments his friends - kind of like an annoying brother. It's easier for us, since he has no siblings to torment, but it's still hard when he does it to other peoples children, and some of his friends (understandably) get very annoyed with him doing it. It seems to me he just loves the contact and interaction, and craves physical interactions such as wrestling, so it's like he's baiting his friends to get them to wrestle or play-fight with him. He full-on wrestles every night with his Dad and that seems to help a bit - does Jude wrestle with his Dad or another adult male?
I tell him to STOP (loudly - i'll admit I often have to yell to get through!), that the other person is not having fun, but like Jude he sometimes seems unable to stop, so I'll try to distract him, lead him off to another part of the playground, or if we are at someone's house - sometimes we'll have to go home. Can you distract Jude? Suggest something for him to do somewhere else in the house, away from the others?
Sorry, not great suggestions - but Sandra's right - he won't be 7 forever.
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wish we were closer Kathryn - Kai would be perfect for that, he loved playing with Jude when we were there!
Kai does similar things, torments his friends - kind of like an annoying brother. It's easier for us, since he has no siblings to torment, but it's still hard when he does it to other peoples children, and some of his friends (understandably) get very annoyed with him doing it. It seems to me he just loves the contact and interaction, and craves physical interactions such as wrestling, so it's like he's baiting his friends to get them to wrestle or play-fight with him. He full-on wrestles every night with his Dad and that seems to help a bit - does Jude wrestle with his Dad or another adult male?
I tell him to STOP (loudly - i'll admit I often have to yell to get through!), that the other person is not having fun, but like Jude he sometimes seems unable to stop, so I'll try to distract him, lead him off to another part of the playground, or if we are at someone's house - sometimes we'll have to go home. Can you distract Jude? Suggest something for him to do somewhere else in the house, away from the others?
Sorry, not great suggestions - but Sandra's right - he won't be 7 forever.
Jo
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"Kathryn" <freetobe@...> wrote:
Don't say, do - swoop in and engage him with something. Get a foam "noodle" for each of you and play swords, or offer to play soccer with him on the trampoline, or spin him on the swing. Blow a raspberry on the back of his neck, maybe, or tickle him. He wants attention and interaction - and he'll get it, one way or another. Better to give it to him before things blow up.
Does he have someone he can roughhouse with every day? That's important. Do you regularly invite him to do big, fun physical things with you? That will help him have your attention And some energetic fun.
Some of these might be fun:
http://sandradodd.com/physicality/
Also, he may want the attention specifically of his siblings, so organize fun, active things they can Safely do together. Think in terms of party games and holiday/fund raiser games - maybe tailored so that Jude has a handicap to make things more exciting for him (not to set him up to lose, but to set him up for a bigger challenge). Don't rely on just having lots of stuff they Can do, they need you to actively facilitate because their needs are so different - set them up so there are things they can enjoy doing together on a regular basis.
---Meredith
>> I am almost Always present. I take part in the silly word/voice game with them; I See Jude get more energetic and in their face. I'll say things like, 'settle down mate, she's not liking that,'****************
Don't say, do - swoop in and engage him with something. Get a foam "noodle" for each of you and play swords, or offer to play soccer with him on the trampoline, or spin him on the swing. Blow a raspberry on the back of his neck, maybe, or tickle him. He wants attention and interaction - and he'll get it, one way or another. Better to give it to him before things blow up.
Does he have someone he can roughhouse with every day? That's important. Do you regularly invite him to do big, fun physical things with you? That will help him have your attention And some energetic fun.
Some of these might be fun:
http://sandradodd.com/physicality/
Also, he may want the attention specifically of his siblings, so organize fun, active things they can Safely do together. Think in terms of party games and holiday/fund raiser games - maybe tailored so that Jude has a handicap to make things more exciting for him (not to set him up to lose, but to set him up for a bigger challenge). Don't rely on just having lots of stuff they Can do, they need you to actively facilitate because their needs are so different - set them up so there are things they can enjoy doing together on a regular basis.
---Meredith
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
If my son is to excited and not stopping when we tell him to stop we do step in grab him ( we tell him what we are going to do and he likes it so it is not against his will-just wanted to make sure I am clear to others) and give him mommy therapy!
Yep he loves it and it is usually enough to get him to calm down.
You ask what is mommy therapy?
For my son is tickling him and blowing in his belly.
But for your son it can be something else.
It has always helped my son to just make a game and make him laugh when he is too excited.
After that I right away get him some snacks and drinks because that could help too.
Something yummy first so it is fast sugar in their blood stream and then I usually bring a monkey platter.
I do not offer it or ask if they are hungry. I just bring it to them and they will jump at it.
I also get drinks.
I have to say that at 9 things like that happen a lot less than before. He rarelly , don;t remember last time, does it to
his friends.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Yep he loves it and it is usually enough to get him to calm down.
You ask what is mommy therapy?
For my son is tickling him and blowing in his belly.
But for your son it can be something else.
It has always helped my son to just make a game and make him laugh when he is too excited.
After that I right away get him some snacks and drinks because that could help too.
Something yummy first so it is fast sugar in their blood stream and then I usually bring a monkey platter.
I do not offer it or ask if they are hungry. I just bring it to them and they will jump at it.
I also get drinks.
I have to say that at 9 things like that happen a lot less than before. He rarelly , don;t remember last time, does it to
his friends.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If my son is to excited and not stopping when we tell him to stop we do step in grab him ( we tell him what we are going to do and he likes it so it is not against his will-just wanted to make sure I am clear to others) -=-
"SACK OF POTATOES" meant someone was about to be picked up by the mom, or if they were bigger, the dad, and carried away over a shoulder.
"Sack of potatoes" was fair warning, and it was always funny and never mean.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
"SACK OF POTATOES" meant someone was about to be picked up by the mom, or if they were bigger, the dad, and carried away over a shoulder.
"Sack of potatoes" was fair warning, and it was always funny and never mean.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Gosh ! Brian loves to do sack of potatoes! That is another good one!!
Oh and family sandwich!! A big hug! My kids love that one too!
It connect us , distracts, give them physical contact and it is loving and fun!
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Torment?
-=-If my son is to excited and not stopping when we tell him to stop we do step in grab him ( we tell him what we are going to do and he likes it so it is not against his will-just wanted to make sure I am clear to others) -=-
"SACK OF POTATOES" meant someone was about to be picked up by the mom, or if they were bigger, the dad, and carried away over a shoulder.
"Sack of potatoes" was fair warning, and it was always funny and never mean.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Oh and family sandwich!! A big hug! My kids love that one too!
It connect us , distracts, give them physical contact and it is loving and fun!
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2012 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Torment?
-=-If my son is to excited and not stopping when we tell him to stop we do step in grab him ( we tell him what we are going to do and he likes it so it is not against his will-just wanted to make sure I am clear to others) -=-
"SACK OF POTATOES" meant someone was about to be picked up by the mom, or if they were bigger, the dad, and carried away over a shoulder.
"Sack of potatoes" was fair warning, and it was always funny and never mean.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
I'm very confused about your advice to use the spray bottle. That's one of the most degrading things I've ever heard of for a child. A cat, maybe, but a kid? We all talk a lot about respecting our children on this board and that just doesn't fit. In fact, I think you're the one who said something about not treating your children any differently than your adult peers, as far as respect I mean. Would you use a spray bottle on your husband if he did or said something annoying? What about the checkout lady at the grocery store who's terribly slow at ringing up your items....do you spray her, too? I'm sorry I know you won't take this well but I had to say something it just shocked me so much that you would suggest it.
Deborah
Deborah
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Jude will start to get physically in their face; more loud and playfully roll at them. A lot of phsyical contact. The other two find this annoying, and quickly the game turns into 'STOP, Jude!'. He doesn't-=-
>
> I used to tell my kids the second they turned irritating, "It's only playing if everyone's playing," or "Kirby's not playing."
>
> It meant "stop," but it was the reason for the stopping. They were not in the realm of interaction; they were in the realm of bugging, harrassment, torment.
>
> -=-This often escalates into agression and upset by both/either Mia or Rueben (depending on which one has been targeted). Mia will lose her temper, and often hit in frustration. Jude still is giggling away, playing, until he actually gets hurt.-=-
>
> You said you're there, but you're not. If it got to the point that someone was frustrated enough to hit, they were left on their own too long.
>
> -=- I'll say things like, 'settle down mate, she's not liking that,' but it's like he gets in overdrive and doesn't want to hear me. I may as well Not be there, because my intervention is ignored. I physically have to pick him up and hold him to both protect himself and the other sibling from physical hurt. He Hates this. I don't like restraining him either. For a little guy, he's strong! How do I get him to stop? -=-
>
> Try "STOP" instead of "settle down mate, she's not liking that," maybe.
> and stage two, "I said STOP."
>
> Get between him and what he's looking at and stare him down. Use primate behavior to remind him he's not the boss, he's not the biggest, and that you have an obligation to protect the other kids.
>
> -=- I'm tired of continually being 'on'. I'm stressed out!! Help!! -=-
>
> What about a water spray bottle, and a joke that it's to tame him or to hypnotize him or something. Like people spray a cat. Maybe he would thin, it was fun. Maybe it would be a reminder while still being kind of a joke, or amusing (unless he is NOT amused, then it's "it's only playing if everyone's playing").
>
> Would it help to invite another rougher kid to play with him? To run and climb and play on the trampoline? Doesn't need to be his age. Or maybe hire an older kid to play rough with him, run, jump.
>
> He won't always be seven. It might just seem like it for a while.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 23, 2012, at 3:19 PM, Deb wrote:
Emphasizing that the child be on board to see if this might help him disengage was said 4 different ways. And there were only 4 sentences!
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> That's one of the most degrading things I've ever heard of for a child.I think you must have stopped at the spray bottle and didn't take in the rest of it.
Emphasizing that the child be on board to see if this might help him disengage was said 4 different ways. And there were only 4 sentences!
> (unless he is NOT amused, then it's "it's only playing if everyone's playing").Joyce
>
> What about a water spray bottle, and a joke that it's to tame him or to hypnotize him or something.
>
> Maybe he would thin, it was fun.
>
> Maybe it would be a reminder while still being kind of a joke, or amusing
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm very confused about your advice to use the spray bottle. That's one of the most degrading things I've ever heard of for a child. A cat, maybe, but a kid? -=-
It wasn't my first or best advice, was it?
My first and best advice is here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
But apparently none of that was working in this situation.
When the regular ideas don't work and people start brainstorming, the way brainstorming works is to come up with all kinds of ideas and see if any resonate.
And I recommended finding a humorous way to do it, too, and not to do it if he didn't think it was fun; you left that part out.
there's a typo in this "thin," should've been "think" in "he would thin, it was fun" so I'm changing it below.
**************************
-=- I'm tired of continually being 'on'. I'm stressed out!! Help!! -=-
What about a water spray bottle, and a joke that it's to tame him or to hypnotize him or something. Like people spray a cat. Maybe he would think it was fun. Maybe it would be a reminder while still being kind of a joke, or amusing (unless he is NOT amused, then it's "it's only playing if everyone's playing").
**************************
-=- In fact, I think you're the one who said something about not treating your children any differently than your adult peers, as far as respect I mean. Would you use a spray bottle on your husband if he did or said something annoying? -=-
Not if he wasn't in on the intention to change.
If this boy can't stop, is hurting people, will not stop at someone shouting NO, then what's YOUR better advice? It's all fine and good to say my advice sucks. What's your better suggestion?
-=-What about the checkout lady at the grocery store who's terribly slow at ringing up your items....do you spray her, too? I'm sorry I know you won't take this well but I had to say something it just shocked me so much that you would suggest it. -=-
I'm taking it better than you did, apparently. :-)
When I was teaching 9th grade, there was a girl who clicked her tongue. That tongue click is generally considered to be an insult. And in northern New Mexico in the 1970's in her social groups, it was definitely a challenging, insulting kind of noise. Maybe she started it out to mean to be that way, but it had become a habit, and she couldn't stop. People talked to her about it and she said she didn't know how to stop. I suggested we could try a group operant conditioning project, if she wanted to, and we would stop if she didn't like it. She said sure, try. So everyone in that English class agreed that if she made the noise, they would all make the noise...just softly. No other comment, no making fun of her, no making a deal about it.
Sometimes she would make the noise to herself when she was just writing, and frustrated. And when she did, 20 people would make the same little noise, without even looking up.
She had quit doing it within four or five days.
I wouldn't have clicked back at a woman at the store, or my boyfriend, or a friend of mine. The situation was mutually agreed upon.
Conditioning and training aren't my first recommendations.
When the regular choices aren't working and violence is happening (between kids, which can lead to a parent getting overly physical with a child), and when options aren't presenting themselves, it's possible that a water squirt could be the clue/reminder/tension-breaker this boy could use to remember to change directions.
With my own kids, we used breathing, to calm themselves.
And with my own kids I had a "procedure" that led up to (at least in theory) one being able to hit another one "legally", acceptably. And for us, those things worked.
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
"Sack of potatoes" isn't something someone should do to strangers or friends, either, but when it's kinder to remove a little child from a tense situation by picking him up physically and making him laugh, then it's not even nearly one of the worst options.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It wasn't my first or best advice, was it?
My first and best advice is here:
http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
But apparently none of that was working in this situation.
When the regular ideas don't work and people start brainstorming, the way brainstorming works is to come up with all kinds of ideas and see if any resonate.
And I recommended finding a humorous way to do it, too, and not to do it if he didn't think it was fun; you left that part out.
there's a typo in this "thin," should've been "think" in "he would thin, it was fun" so I'm changing it below.
**************************
-=- I'm tired of continually being 'on'. I'm stressed out!! Help!! -=-
What about a water spray bottle, and a joke that it's to tame him or to hypnotize him or something. Like people spray a cat. Maybe he would think it was fun. Maybe it would be a reminder while still being kind of a joke, or amusing (unless he is NOT amused, then it's "it's only playing if everyone's playing").
**************************
-=- In fact, I think you're the one who said something about not treating your children any differently than your adult peers, as far as respect I mean. Would you use a spray bottle on your husband if he did or said something annoying? -=-
Not if he wasn't in on the intention to change.
If this boy can't stop, is hurting people, will not stop at someone shouting NO, then what's YOUR better advice? It's all fine and good to say my advice sucks. What's your better suggestion?
-=-What about the checkout lady at the grocery store who's terribly slow at ringing up your items....do you spray her, too? I'm sorry I know you won't take this well but I had to say something it just shocked me so much that you would suggest it. -=-
I'm taking it better than you did, apparently. :-)
When I was teaching 9th grade, there was a girl who clicked her tongue. That tongue click is generally considered to be an insult. And in northern New Mexico in the 1970's in her social groups, it was definitely a challenging, insulting kind of noise. Maybe she started it out to mean to be that way, but it had become a habit, and she couldn't stop. People talked to her about it and she said she didn't know how to stop. I suggested we could try a group operant conditioning project, if she wanted to, and we would stop if she didn't like it. She said sure, try. So everyone in that English class agreed that if she made the noise, they would all make the noise...just softly. No other comment, no making fun of her, no making a deal about it.
Sometimes she would make the noise to herself when she was just writing, and frustrated. And when she did, 20 people would make the same little noise, without even looking up.
She had quit doing it within four or five days.
I wouldn't have clicked back at a woman at the store, or my boyfriend, or a friend of mine. The situation was mutually agreed upon.
Conditioning and training aren't my first recommendations.
When the regular choices aren't working and violence is happening (between kids, which can lead to a parent getting overly physical with a child), and when options aren't presenting themselves, it's possible that a water squirt could be the clue/reminder/tension-breaker this boy could use to remember to change directions.
With my own kids, we used breathing, to calm themselves.
And with my own kids I had a "procedure" that led up to (at least in theory) one being able to hit another one "legally", acceptably. And for us, those things worked.
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
"Sack of potatoes" isn't something someone should do to strangers or friends, either, but when it's kinder to remove a little child from a tense situation by picking him up physically and making him laugh, then it's not even nearly one of the worst options.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
More commentary on how things were resolved at our house (and some by other people, there and linked)
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fightingcomments
http://sandradodd.com/peace/fightingcomments
Sandra Dodd
-=I'm very confused about your advice to use the spray bottle. That's one of the most degrading things I've ever heard of for a child.-=-
That can't possibly be one of the most degrading things you've ever heard of for a child if you've been around mainstream parenting at all, ever.
It might be the most degrading advice you've ever heard on this list. :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That can't possibly be one of the most degrading things you've ever heard of for a child if you've been around mainstream parenting at all, ever.
It might be the most degrading advice you've ever heard on this list. :-)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
Okay I guess I see what you're saying. And yes I did miss the part about it being done in an agreed upon, fun way. Sorry for that. I have another scenario for you. An eight year old boy is being unschooled for the first time and loving it. His mother is doing her best but gets frustrated at his seeming lack of motivation to do anything but play video games or play gorilla/Bigfoot with his mom. Enter the nineteen year old college freshman who's majoring in early childhood education. Her HOMESCHOOL experience was awful. Now she constantly points out why unschooling can't work in front of her brother and says out loud that he's behind kindergartenera she's worked with. She has quite a temper with the boy and the mom and any conversation seems to turn into a battle that leaves us both screaming. (yeah it's me, like you couldn't tell). How do suggest a way to break through to the daughter that won't put her on the defensive? I'm open to anyone's ideas but especially yours since I know your background from reading your book and your entire website.
Deborah
Deborah
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I'm very confused about your advice to use the spray bottle. That's one of the most degrading things I've ever heard of for a child. A cat, maybe, but a kid? -=-
>
> It wasn't my first or best advice, was it?
> My first and best advice is here:
> http://sandradodd.com/unschooling
> But apparently none of that was working in this situation.
>
> When the regular ideas don't work and people start brainstorming, the way brainstorming works is to come up with all kinds of ideas and see if any resonate.
>
> And I recommended finding a humorous way to do it, too, and not to do it if he didn't think it was fun; you left that part out.
>
> there's a typo in this "thin," should've been "think" in "he would thin, it was fun" so I'm changing it below.
> **************************
> -=- I'm tired of continually being 'on'. I'm stressed out!! Help!! -=-
>
> What about a water spray bottle, and a joke that it's to tame him or to hypnotize him or something. Like people spray a cat. Maybe he would think it was fun. Maybe it would be a reminder while still being kind of a joke, or amusing (unless he is NOT amused, then it's "it's only playing if everyone's playing").
> **************************
>
> -=- In fact, I think you're the one who said something about not treating your children any differently than your adult peers, as far as respect I mean. Would you use a spray bottle on your husband if he did or said something annoying? -=-
>
> Not if he wasn't in on the intention to change.
>
> If this boy can't stop, is hurting people, will not stop at someone shouting NO, then what's YOUR better advice? It's all fine and good to say my advice sucks. What's your better suggestion?
>
> -=-What about the checkout lady at the grocery store who's terribly slow at ringing up your items....do you spray her, too? I'm sorry I know you won't take this well but I had to say something it just shocked me so much that you would suggest it. -=-
>
> I'm taking it better than you did, apparently. :-)
>
> When I was teaching 9th grade, there was a girl who clicked her tongue. That tongue click is generally considered to be an insult. And in northern New Mexico in the 1970's in her social groups, it was definitely a challenging, insulting kind of noise. Maybe she started it out to mean to be that way, but it had become a habit, and she couldn't stop. People talked to her about it and she said she didn't know how to stop. I suggested we could try a group operant conditioning project, if she wanted to, and we would stop if she didn't like it. She said sure, try. So everyone in that English class agreed that if she made the noise, they would all make the noise...just softly. No other comment, no making fun of her, no making a deal about it.
>
> Sometimes she would make the noise to herself when she was just writing, and frustrated. And when she did, 20 people would make the same little noise, without even looking up.
>
> She had quit doing it within four or five days.
>
> I wouldn't have clicked back at a woman at the store, or my boyfriend, or a friend of mine. The situation was mutually agreed upon.
>
> Conditioning and training aren't my first recommendations.
> When the regular choices aren't working and violence is happening (between kids, which can lead to a parent getting overly physical with a child), and when options aren't presenting themselves, it's possible that a water squirt could be the clue/reminder/tension-breaker this boy could use to remember to change directions.
>
> With my own kids, we used breathing, to calm themselves.
> And with my own kids I had a "procedure" that led up to (at least in theory) one being able to hit another one "legally", acceptably. And for us, those things worked.
> http://sandradodd.com/peace/fighting
>
> "Sack of potatoes" isn't something someone should do to strangers or friends, either, but when it's kinder to remove a little child from a tense situation by picking him up physically and making him laugh, then it's not even nearly one of the worst options.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-. Enter the nineteen year old college freshman who's majoring in early childhood education. Her HOMESCHOOL experience was awful.-=-
Tell us more.
Did you homeschool her, school-at-home?
Has she read any John Holt?
You could make that a pre-requisite to ever saying another word.
You could, perhaps tell her that you will maintain the peace of your home even from her.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tell us more.
Did you homeschool her, school-at-home?
Has she read any John Holt?
You could make that a pre-requisite to ever saying another word.
You could, perhaps tell her that you will maintain the peace of your home even from her.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Deb <vwb777@...> wrote:
Also - if she's studying early childhood education, she should be getting a
lot of information on the value of play and on learning through
non-academic approaches. David Elkind is well respected in early childhood
education circles - maybe you can read a couple of his books and talk about
those with her.
Another approach is to tell her that you really hope she'll develop a great
relationship with him and ask her to focus on having fun with him and leave
the 'other stuff' to you. Point out how lucky it would be for him to have a
big sister who could take him cool places, play games with him, and be
there for him to confide in.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> How do suggest a way to break through to the daughter that won't put herApologize in a big way for not knowing then what you know now.
> on the defensive? >>>
Also - if she's studying early childhood education, she should be getting a
lot of information on the value of play and on learning through
non-academic approaches. David Elkind is well respected in early childhood
education circles - maybe you can read a couple of his books and talk about
those with her.
Another approach is to tell her that you really hope she'll develop a great
relationship with him and ask her to focus on having fun with him and leave
the 'other stuff' to you. Point out how lucky it would be for him to have a
big sister who could take him cool places, play games with him, and be
there for him to confide in.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Point out how lucky it would be for him to have a
big sister who could take him cool places, play games with him, and be
there for him to confide in.-=-
I would be wary of encouraging someone so hostile to unschooling to be alone with my child for very long.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
big sister who could take him cool places, play games with him, and be
there for him to confide in.-=-
I would be wary of encouraging someone so hostile to unschooling to be alone with my child for very long.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 3:54 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
and could have that kind of relationship. I'm not saying send him off with
her the way she is acting/thinking now - but mom seems to have hope of
making a change.
One of my sisters never got or liked unschooling - but I never hesitated to
have my kids do stuff with her. She's super fun and kind and they love
her....she knew better than to engage with them about their education or
their religion. As long as I could trust her (and I knew I could) then
things were really quite wonderful. That's one of the things the sister is
missing out on - having a great relationship with her brother. Mom might be
able to negotiate an agreement partially on that basis. But the mom would
have to be the judge of whether she could trust the sister to behave well.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> -=-Point out how lucky it would be for him to have aRight. Point out to her how cool it would be IF she became more supportive
> big sister who could take him cool places, play games with him, and be
> there for him to confide in.-=-
>
> I would be wary of encouraging someone so hostile to unschooling to be
> alone with my child for very long.>>
>
and could have that kind of relationship. I'm not saying send him off with
her the way she is acting/thinking now - but mom seems to have hope of
making a change.
One of my sisters never got or liked unschooling - but I never hesitated to
have my kids do stuff with her. She's super fun and kind and they love
her....she knew better than to engage with them about their education or
their religion. As long as I could trust her (and I knew I could) then
things were really quite wonderful. That's one of the things the sister is
missing out on - having a great relationship with her brother. Mom might be
able to negotiate an agreement partially on that basis. But the mom would
have to be the judge of whether she could trust the sister to behave well.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"Deb" <vwb777@...> wrote:
Don't try to convince her unschooling is a good thing. Don't let her bad-mouth her brother in front of him, but listen to her concerns privately. Make neutral comments like "you could be right" and "we're trying this for now" and if she worries about him being behind suggest she read Better Late than Early for another perspective on the subject.
Don't fight with her! Don't let her be mean to her brother, but don't get drawn into a shouting match about unschooling. Conciliate and be kind. Look for ways to extend some of the "benefits" of unschooling to her - add more gentleness and thoughfulness and joy to Her life so she's not stuck watching someone else get the designer life she deserved just as much. Make her life better now.
Step away from the words "break through"! If you're trying to convince her or teach her better, and she's trying to convince you and teach You better, then you're stuck shouting at each other, and the only thing breaking is the relationship. Work on being a better friend to her rather than trying to change her mind.
---Meredith
>>Her HOMESCHOOL experience was awful.Have you acknowledged that? apologized and told her you're trying something different this time? It's a place to start, maybe.
Don't try to convince her unschooling is a good thing. Don't let her bad-mouth her brother in front of him, but listen to her concerns privately. Make neutral comments like "you could be right" and "we're trying this for now" and if she worries about him being behind suggest she read Better Late than Early for another perspective on the subject.
> She has quite a temper with the boy and the mom and any conversation seems to turn into a battle that leaves us both screaming.****************
Don't fight with her! Don't let her be mean to her brother, but don't get drawn into a shouting match about unschooling. Conciliate and be kind. Look for ways to extend some of the "benefits" of unschooling to her - add more gentleness and thoughfulness and joy to Her life so she's not stuck watching someone else get the designer life she deserved just as much. Make her life better now.
>> How do suggest a way to break through to the daughter that won't put her on the defensive?***********
Step away from the words "break through"! If you're trying to convince her or teach her better, and she's trying to convince you and teach You better, then you're stuck shouting at each other, and the only thing breaking is the relationship. Work on being a better friend to her rather than trying to change her mind.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 23, 2012, at 6:25 PM, Deb wrote:
Have you read Sandra's pages on video games?
http://sandradodd.com/videogames/
If you've just started, he needs to do this stuff because his time has been so limited.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> gets frustrated at his seeming lack of motivation to doAre you expressing your frustration to your daughter or where she can hear? Any sign that you're doubting unschooling is bound to make someone who doesn't trust the ideas attack.
> anything but play video games or play gorilla/Bigfoot with his mom
Have you read Sandra's pages on video games?
http://sandradodd.com/videogames/
If you've just started, he needs to do this stuff because his time has been so limited.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
You're right and she has anger issues as well. If she's not happy with him she screams at him. They can hang out occasionally with no problems but it has to be on her terms, her timing,etx.
Nick loves his sis so much it's very difficult to see them when she's mad. I try and step in and she ends up unloading on me, which I guess at least gets the negativity away from him for a bit.
I have asked my hubby, Mark to speak to her about it because she respects him a lot more and he always says that he will but I don't see any changes.
Do you think she could be going through some kind of autonomy struggle, being that she just started college? Thanks for all your advice, and please anyone feel free to chime in.
Deborah
Nick loves his sis so much it's very difficult to see them when she's mad. I try and step in and she ends up unloading on me, which I guess at least gets the negativity away from him for a bit.
I have asked my hubby, Mark to speak to her about it because she respects him a lot more and he always says that he will but I don't see any changes.
Do you think she could be going through some kind of autonomy struggle, being that she just started college? Thanks for all your advice, and please anyone feel free to chime in.
Deborah
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Point out how lucky it would be for him to have a
> big sister who could take him cool places, play games with him, and be
> there for him to confide in.-=-
>
> I would be wary of encouraging someone so hostile to unschooling to be alone with my child for very long.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 26, 2012, at 8:57 PM, Deb wrote:
You might take her out and apologize. Let her vent. Don't get defensive. Her view of her childhood isn't your view. She's seeing it from a totally different angle and what you intended doesn't mean anything if it felt very different to her.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Do you think she could be going through some kind ofShe sounds angry to me. I think she's jealous. If she had a miserable experience homeschooling, she wants this unschooling thing to be wrong. Otherwise she suffered for no benefit at all.
> autonomy struggle, being that she just started college?
You might take her out and apologize. Let her vent. Don't get defensive. Her view of her childhood isn't your view. She's seeing it from a totally different angle and what you intended doesn't mean anything if it felt very different to her.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Do you think she could be going through some kind of autonomy struggle, being that she just started college? Thanks for all your advice, and please anyone feel free to chime in.***
I think it's a long established pattern of behavior. Only, you've changed the rules of the game and she doesn't know what the rules are anymore. She's stuck behaving in the expected ways, expecting you to follow right along.
Go easy on her. Don't talk about child care or education. Invite her to see a movie or go out to eat, someplace neutral, someplace where you can talk about other things. Ask her more questions and listen more than talk. Let it be about her. Don't be the person who knows it all, let her know it all and tell you all she knows, even if you absolutely don't agree. You will at least get to know "why" she believes what she does.
In the mean time, help her have a different kind of relationship with her younger sibling, even if that means keeping them from being alone together. Start by finding ONE thing that they both like to do and then encourage that ONE thing.
That idea has saved me more than a few times with my own children, when they've gone through periods of time where it seemed like what they were interested in wasn't at all interesting to me. Once I could find that ONE thing, it got easier to like all the other things and see more value in it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think it's a long established pattern of behavior. Only, you've changed the rules of the game and she doesn't know what the rules are anymore. She's stuck behaving in the expected ways, expecting you to follow right along.
Go easy on her. Don't talk about child care or education. Invite her to see a movie or go out to eat, someplace neutral, someplace where you can talk about other things. Ask her more questions and listen more than talk. Let it be about her. Don't be the person who knows it all, let her know it all and tell you all she knows, even if you absolutely don't agree. You will at least get to know "why" she believes what she does.
In the mean time, help her have a different kind of relationship with her younger sibling, even if that means keeping them from being alone together. Start by finding ONE thing that they both like to do and then encourage that ONE thing.
That idea has saved me more than a few times with my own children, when they've gone through periods of time where it seemed like what they were interested in wasn't at all interesting to me. Once I could find that ONE thing, it got easier to like all the other things and see more value in it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb
Actually I think you're absolutely right about the jealousy thing. Her homeschooling experienced ended up being three years of her teaching herself out of ace books while I raced around after her toddler brother. We took her out of junior high because of behavior towards her that was unacceptable and she was really excited about it. I was, too and bought a bunch of stuff we never got to because I didnt know how to do it with a high spirited little one around
I think talking to her and apologizing is a wonderful idea. I remember a few months ago telling her how bad I felt about an inciident when she was younger. I told I was sorry that I had hurt her and she threw her arms around me for a very long, overdue hug. I like to hug her but she's usually put off by it. If she hugs me first I know something is right between us. Thank you so much for the insight.
I think talking to her and apologizing is a wonderful idea. I remember a few months ago telling her how bad I felt about an inciident when she was younger. I told I was sorry that I had hurt her and she threw her arms around me for a very long, overdue hug. I like to hug her but she's usually put off by it. If she hugs me first I know something is right between us. Thank you so much for the insight.
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 26, 2012, at 8:57 PM, Deb wrote:
>
> > Do you think she could be going through some kind of
> > autonomy struggle, being that she just started college?
>
> She sounds angry to me. I think she's jealous. If she had a miserable experience homeschooling, she wants this unschooling thing to be wrong. Otherwise she suffered for no benefit at all.
>
> You might take her out and apologize. Let her vent. Don't get defensive. Her view of her childhood isn't your view. She's seeing it from a totally different angle and what you intended doesn't mean anything if it felt very different to her.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Deb
I don't know if you'll read this or not since it's an older post but I did have a talk with my daughter and did sincerely apologize. She was very forgiving but wanted to make sure I knew that she had felt bad not so much about the educating part but the fact that I put her little brother before her on a regular basis, which, unfortunately I did. But after that she gave me a hug and I haven't heard her yell at Nick once since we talked.
Thank you for your input.
Deborah
Thank you for your input.
Deborah
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 3:25 PM, Deb <vwb777@...> wrote:
>
> > How do suggest a way to break through to the daughter that won't put her
> > on the defensive? >>>
>
>
>
> Apologize in a big way for not knowing then what you know now.
>
> Also - if she's studying early childhood education, she should be getting a
> lot of information on the value of play and on learning through
> non-academic approaches. David Elkind is well respected in early childhood
> education circles - maybe you can read a couple of his books and talk about
> those with her.
>
> Another approach is to tell her that you really hope she'll develop a great
> relationship with him and ask her to focus on having fun with him and leave
> the 'other stuff' to you. Point out how lucky it would be for him to have a
> big sister who could take him cool places, play games with him, and be
> there for him to confide in.
>
> -pam
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>