mitrisue

I'm interested in hearing others' experiences interacting with neighbors who set off the "warning" feeling within you. Our new neighbors have two children the same ages as ours (3 and 6), and they have frequent kid visitors, which my kids love. So far everyone has played outdoors, and I'm fine with usually ending up as the one adult present and participating.

The other day my son went into their house without telling me, and once I figured out where he was, I asked him to come outside with me. He did with no fuss, but I realized that I'm uncomfortable having him in there at all. I'm trying to sort out what is judgmental vs. what is essential for Dmitri's well-being.

They just don't feel safe to me. From the stories they've told me, they have a level of drama and instability (leading to unsafe conditions)in their lives that we don't experience. Also, they yell at their kids. I know with other neighbors we've had in the past, I've been very comfortable with the in and out of each others' houses thing, even though at that time Dmitri's preference was to stay with me.

I've told Dmitri that we don't know them very well yet, and it doesn't feel right to me for him to be in there without me, but I have concerns about short-circuiting his own good sense of leaving when something feels off. Above all, the mama beacon is sending out a pretty steady signal of "no way," but I'm interested in other perspectives.

Thanks,
Julie

Sandra Dodd

-=-I've told Dmitri that we don't know them very well yet, and it doesn't feel right to me for him to be in there without me, but I have concerns about short-circuiting his own good sense of leaving when something feels off. Above all, the mama beacon is sending out a pretty steady signal of "no way," but I'm interested in other perspectives. -=-

In such cases, I let my kids visit if they wanted to, but didn't press them to go over if they were hesitant. I did let them decide, and reminded them that anytime they wanted to come home, to come home!

What sets off my own bells has to do with my own childhood memories of dumbass and drunken relatives on my mom's side. My kids don't have that family; they had me and Keith and a safe place. When I was a kid, I didn't have a safe place to retreat to. Maybe neither do your neighbor's kids, but YOUR kid does have!

A little exposure to drama, as a visitor, isn't at all the same as living in it.

And parents can be wrong. Some of the friends of my kids that I pegged as dangerous trouble were not. The one I liked most, they consider to be a suck-up to adults. (An Eddie Haskell, for those old enough and American enough to know the reference.)

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

I just noticed the subject:
"Neighbors and autonomy for 6yo"

I don't think "autonomy" is a good term or goal. Sorry I didn't notice that the first time.
I don't know whose word "autonomy" is, in alternative ed or parenting, but it's not a concept I want to defend or support.

http://sandradodd.com/nest
http://sandradodd.com/partner

My children had two parents to help them through things, and now that they're older they have siblings, friends, sweeties, roommates.

Sandra

mitrisue

--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> I don't think "autonomy" is a good term or goal.

I see what you mean about that word. When I say I want him to have autonomy, I'm really saying I want to trust him, sort myself out before reacting from fear, and not interfere with him unnecessarily. Is there any one good word for that?

Your first post was reassuring--thanks.

Julie

mitrisue

--- In [email protected], "mitrisue" <julesmiel@...> wrote:
-=-I see what you mean about that word. When I say I want him to have autonomy, I'm really saying I want to trust him, sort myself out before reacting from fear, and not interfere with him unnecessarily. Is there any one good word for that?-=-

I can answer my own question--partnering.

Julie

Sandra Dodd

-=-When I say I want him to have autonomy, I'm really saying I want to trust him, sort myself out before reacting from fear, and not interfere with him unnecessarily. Is there any one good word for that?-=-

Unschooling!
:-)

You want to give him choices. You want him to learn to trust his own senses.

Maybe it doesn't need to have a single word.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

"mitrisue" <julesmiel@...> wrote:
>From the stories they've told me, they have a level of drama and instability (leading to unsafe conditions)in their lives that we don't experience.
***************

How "unsafe"? Drunken rages unsafe? Loaded gun in the sofa unsafe (my new job is at an upholstery shop, I've been hearing the "loaded gun in the sofa" story all week...)? Or is it more the kind of danger that comes with a lot of arbitrary rules leading to kids making dangerous choices? Some kinds of un-safety are things you can prepare your kid for, or play by ear - some not so much. But then, if the house is somehow appealing and you forbid you son visiting, what happens if he goes inside anyway? He's not likely to tell you if something scary happens if he's there without permission.

>>Also, they yell at their kids.

Sounds like a situation where your kid might well decide he doesn't enjoy playing there on his own. There were houses as a kid in a neighborhood I didn't visit because the parents yelled more than average, or the teens were cruel to younger kids. I didn't need my parents to say "don't play in so-and-sos house" I figured it out, or got the skivvy from the other kids in the block.

---Meredith

Meredith

"mitrisue" <julesmiel@...> wrote:
When I say I want him to have autonomy, I'm really saying I want to trust him, sort myself out before reacting from fear, and not interfere with him unnecessarily. Is there any one good word for that?
**************

Does there need to be? Sometimes trying to use a short-hand term can confuse things more than a short explanation. If you wanted something for a subject heading to make it searchable, "neighbors" is the most useful term.

---Meredith

Renee Smock

<<The other day my son went into their house without telling me, and once I
figured out where he was, I asked him to come outside with me. He did with
no fuss, but I realized that I'm uncomfortable having him in there at all.
I'm trying to sort out what is judgmental vs. what is essential for
Dmitri's well-being.>>

We recently moved to an apartment community. The kids (and adults) here
are very different than the community of home school families we used to
spend all of our time with (in another state). I found myself being very
judgmental about the parenting I was seeing - and the results it was
producing in the kids (sneaking, stealing, lying, etc.). Once I saw that
my kids weren't nearly as bothered by it all as I was (though they do get
annoyed when they have plans to play and someone gets grounded) I was able
to relax a bit. As Sandra mentioned, it didn't set off the same triggers
in them that it did in me (having been that kid getting spanked in front of
my friends). And, I came to be comfortable with them being in a couple of
friend's houses.

However, I had really bad feeling about one older kid (16) in particular.
I just really didn't like the way he played with the younger kids. I
stayed very close when he was around and eventually he just avoided being
where I was. A few of my daughters friends (one lives right next door to
him) liked to go to his house to play Rock Band and hang out with him. I
never let her go - I explained that I didn't know his mom well enough yet,
and so far my interactions with him, didn't make me comfortable. She was
o.k. with it. (I think she also was uncomfortable around him). I have
pretty much just made our house the place to be. I keep as much food on
hand as I can and I try to keep lots fun things around to do. Plus my kids
have more toys than most of these kids, so everyone likes to come and play
with toys here.

I have never been a fan of teaching kids "stranger danger" or otherwise
alarming them and telling them there are dangers everywhere. I never
wanted to instill fear in my kids. And, I'm not trying to be alarmist or
say that behind every door lurks a pedophile. However, just this past
Monday I found out that those 2 young girls (7 and 9) were molested by the
16 year old kid I mentioned earlier. In addition to Rock Band, there were
several games of "dirty truth or dare" being played. So, sometimes I think
we do need to listen to the alarms going off inside of us. I could not be
more happy that I kept my daughter far from there. And, I no longer feel
bad about saying that all sleepovers must take place at our house. (my
kdis are 9 and 7.. just for reference).

Renee S.




On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 4:21 AM, mitrisue <julesmiel@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> I'm interested in hearing others' experiences interacting with neighbors
> who set off the "warning" feeling within you. Our new neighbors have two
> children the same ages as ours (3 and 6), and they have frequent kid
> visitors, which my kids love. So far everyone has played outdoors, and I'm
> fine with usually ending up as the one adult present and participating.
>
> The other day my son went into their house without telling me, and once I
> figured out where he was, I asked him to come outside with me. He did with
> no fuss, but I realized that I'm uncomfortable having him in there at all.
> I'm trying to sort out what is judgmental vs. what is essential for
> Dmitri's well-being.
>
> They just don't feel safe to me. From the stories they've told me, they
> have a level of drama and instability (leading to unsafe conditions)in
> their lives that we don't experience. Also, they yell at their kids. I know
> with other neighbors we've had in the past, I've been very comfortable with
> the in and out of each others' houses thing, even though at that time
> Dmitri's preference was to stay with me.
>
> I've told Dmitri that we don't know them very well yet, and it doesn't
> feel right to me for him to be in there without me, but I have concerns
> about short-circuiting his own good sense of leaving when something feels
> off. Above all, the mama beacon is sending out a pretty steady signal of
> "no way," but I'm interested in other perspectives.
>
> Thanks,
> Julie
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-I have never been a fan of teaching kids "stranger danger" or otherwise
alarming them and telling them there are dangers everywhere. I never
wanted to instill fear in my kids. -=-

Yes. Often kids are rescued from bad "relative danger" by relative strangers.

-=- However, just this past
Monday I found out that those 2 young girls (7 and 9) were molested by the
16 year old kid I mentioned earlier. In addition to Rock Band, there were
several games of "dirty truth or dare" being played. -=-

No doubt the girls' parents will be asked what they were thinking, letting a girl that young be alone (or alone without a good number of others, and an adult) with an older teen. Yikes.

I like mixed-age play, generally, better than all-same-age. I think they learn more, and behave better. But larger groups are also preferable to one older kid and only younger kids. It's hard to guess, but we've had lots of mixed-age hanging out at our house, and also lots of safety net.

When my kids were little and I was wondering what we might lose from not having them in school, one thing I considered at the time was adult witnesses or advocates for them, in case Keith or I became abusive (in any way) or neglectful. So we asked two younger male friends (both 18/20 years older than Kirby) to serve that purpose for our kids--that if the kids ever complained to them about us, to take the kids' side and make sure things were made right and that the kids were safe. They both balked and said they were sure they would want to take our side. I said that wasn't the point. Our kids wouldn't have teachers, counsellors, school nurses or anything like that.

What we hadn't known was that they would have their other friends' parents.

But we also told the kids, as each got old enough to understand it (and reviewed for the older one/s at that point) that if they were ever afraid at home or thought Keith and I weren't being good parents, they could talk to Jeff or Paul and they would help them. So even though Holly only got the notice once, Kirby and Marty knew. And she's heard me tell that story, later.

Sandra

mitrisue

--- In [email protected], "Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
-=-How "unsafe"? Drunken rages unsafe? Loaded gun in the sofa unsafe (my new job is at an upholstery shop, I've been hearing the "loaded gun in the sofa" story all week...)?-=-

Thoughts about guns (which I've never had about anyone else before) are coming up related to these folks. Do I file it under good instincts or being judgmental?

They smoke outside, so am I judging them for that? They're in their current house after causing a kitchen fire that burned down their previous house, so am I judging them for that? One of the kids' fathers is in jail, she thinks, so am I judging them for that? She showed me a pretty big scar from where her younger sister burned her, so am I leaping to lack of supervision? She showed me a fresh bite mark from her sister, so I'm heaping all of these things together and feeing fearful. Or I really do have some decent instincts and something is actually off. They're all friendly people. It's more environment/being there to help that comes up for me.

As of now, Mitri isn't interested in going in their house, but it may come up again. The funny thing is, he won't go across town to play with a close friend without me, but I guess he went inside because I was nearby.

Julie

Vicki Dennis

On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 12:52 PM, mitrisue <julesmiel@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> The funny thing is, he won't go across town to play with a close friend
> without me, but I guess he went inside because I was nearby.
>
> Julie
>

Could be he is already thinking ahead, perhaps subconsciously. If he is
across town without you, where is his escape hatch? Can he just leave and
get home without outside assistance like he can if "just down the street".

I don't see it as hovering or being overbearing if you ask your children to
let you know when they go inside someone else's house. So you don't have
to go looking for them. I expect even adult housemates to mention when
they are not going to be where expected (such as running to the store for
more parts when working outside or in garage).

Having your home be the "go-to" place does solve a lot of worries about
"where are the children". If it happens that children very much want to
sleepover somewhere else (or even at "organized" camp), I like to remind
them specifically that if they are uncomfortable they can call and I will
pick them up. And not deal with exactly what is uncomfortable until
later.(Hard to call for help if you know it will start an interrogation!).
Today's cellphones make that so much easier. With my older son we would
go over how to get to a payphone (they were still around) and make a
collect call.

vicki

__._,_.
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-They smoke outside, so am I judging them for that? They're in their current house after causing a kitchen fire that burned down their previous house, so am I judging them for that? One of the kids' fathers is in jail, she thinks, so am I judging them for that? -=-

What do you want us to say?
Are you fishing for us to all say "Keep him home and tell him no"?

Better smoking outside than in, right?
Better in jail than needs to be in jail but hasn't been caught yet, right?

-=- She showed me a pretty big scar from where her younger sister burned her, so am I leaping to lack of supervision?-=-

Is your child likely to stick around to be burned?

-=-She showed me a fresh bite mark from her sister, so I'm heaping all of these things together and feeing fearful. -=-

Is she likely to bite your child?

-=-They're all friendly people. It's more environment/being there to help that comes up for me. -=-

The important thing is that YOU are near, and attentive, and that your child knows that.

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Meredith

Renee Smock <renee@...> wrote:
>> However, I had really bad feeling about one older kid (16) in particular.
> I just really didn't like the way he played with the younger kids. I
> stayed very close when he was around and eventually he just avoided being
> where I was. A few of my daughters friends (one lives right next door to
> him) liked to go to his house to play Rock Band and hang out with him. I
> never let her go

Did you ask your daughter what she thought of him? I remember a babysitter I had as a kid had a boyfriend my brother and I disliked. We didn't like the way he treated us, although he always behaved properly around adults he was sneaky and mean when no adults were around, but never anything we could report to adults: an icky feeling and a few snide words, some rough play which was less than we regularly inflicted on each other in good fun. But when he eventually beat up his girlfriend, my brother and I weren't surprised and were glad to see him go.

Kids can notice more than adults - and the freedom to leave a situation voluntarily is Big! Another solution could have been to get the same game at your house - then the kids could choose between the same activity at two different homes.

---Meredith

Renee Smock

<<I like mixed-age play, generally, better than all-same-age. I think they
learn more, and behave better. But larger groups are also preferable to one
older kid and only younger kids. It's hard to guess, but we've had lots of
mixed-age hanging out at our house, and also lots of safety net.>>

We too have had a lot of great experiences with this type of mixed age
play. It's one of the greatest things about homeschooling, I think.

Renee S.








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

michelle_m29

We've got/have had several sets of neighbors that made me nervous, so I think I know how you feel. There is NO way my kids would be in their houses without me...and I'm not sure I'd be there, either. (Not long ago, the sherrif stopped by our house to ask my husband about a guy living with the people behind us, so I'm thinking our fears about that particular house might've been justified.)

> Thoughts about guns (which I've never had about anyone else before) > are coming up related to these folks. Do I file it under good
> instincts or being judgmental?

Can you just file it under common sense? I know that there are guns in almost every house my kids spend time at (legal guns for hunting or target shooting -- not "loaded gun in the sofa" type guns.) I know, in almost every case, where those guns are stored and that they're appropriately locked up.

What's the problem with the smoking outside? My reaction would be "yuck," but are you worried that they're providing a bad role model for your own kids? Or that there are lighters and matches lying around? Or something else? (Our neighbors at our old house smoked outside and emtied their ashtrays onto the lawn where my toddlers played -- at that point, I had a HUGE problem with their smoking habits!)

The kitchen fire...was that their fault or a freak accident that could've happened to any of us?

The sister.... I think you need more information while you decide what to do.

When our oldest was four or five, she was visiting with a neighbor's granddaughter through the fence while we were outside doing yard work. The whole thing was perfectly fine and safe...until the little girl sprayed my daughter in the face with a bottle of spray cleaner. I was right there when it happened, but didn't see it coming. My daughter was fine once we flushed her eyes with water, but the grandmother came over later to check on her and told us that the little girl had a history of hurting other children on purpose and that it probably wasn't an accident. They did play together again after that, but it was closely supervised and I think my daughter was pretty careful around that girl.

Michelle

Sandra Dodd

-=-> Thoughts about guns (which I've never had about anyone else before) > are coming up related to these folks. Do I file it under good
> instincts or being judgmental?

-=-Can you just file it under common sense? -=-

Good judgment, maybe! :-)

Don't judge judgment so harshly. People should always use their best judgment, and how can you decide right or wrong without holding things up to *some* template or measure within your own set of beliefs, principles, etc?

It's why some people won't let their kids hang out with unschoolers.
They might think of it as good instinct, or good judgment, or self-preservation, or preserving the purity of their school-focussed life.

It's okay to prefer some people over other people. It wouldn't make sense not to.

Sandra



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

michelle_m29

> It's why some people won't let their kids hang out with unschoolers.
> They might think of it as good instinct, or good judgment, or self-
> preservation, or preserving the purity of their school-focussed life.

Sandra, I think you've just solved one of life's little mysteries for me! Since I wrote that last post, I've been trying to figure out why one set of neighbors seem more determined to avoid us as we are to avoid them (too many things set up huge red flags)...wonder if it's just because our kids aren't in public school?

Michelle

railyuh

> I've told Dmitri that we don't know them very well yet, and it doesn't feel right to me for him to be in there without me, but I have concerns about short-circuiting his own good sense of leaving when something feels off. Above all, the mama beacon is sending out a pretty steady signal of "no way," but I'm interested in other perspectives.
>

I think sometimes with our young kids (my son is 6 and my daughter is 2), it is hard to separate that mama beacon that is telling you something is really not safe or okay, and getting comfortable as a mom with new situations. For me this may also have to do with transitioning from a hovering parenting to a partnering parent, and also just getting used to my kids getting older and being ready for new situations, often before I am ready for them! But if there is something in you that says there is just something not right here, I do think it is important to pay attention.

When we moved here a little over a year ago, it took us a while to get used to our son playing with the neighbor children (they are now 9 and 11, so 3-5 years older than our oldest) without our presence. They yell and punish their kids (most by taking away things) and their kids are in public school. But at the same time I have found that we have more in common with them when it comes to things like food and media than we do with many homeschooling (and even some of our unschooling, who may not be radical unschoolers) friends since they are very relaxed about it.

Some things that helped us were getting to know the parents, spending time in and out of their home and vice versa. We would go over and check on our son when he was in their yard or home (we still do, though not as frequently). He is still young and needs help navigating social situations and I wanted to make sure he wasn't overstaying his welcome or that we weren't creating a situation where they would get tired of him being over there especially since he likes to go over when they get home from school and sometimes they have homework or other things to do.

We made sure we were welcoming to their children so that they could spend time in our home as well and we could get to know them better. Lots of foods and toys and interesting things around the house sure helps! If I was really uncomfortable and felt like there was something truly off at the other house, I would try to encourage this as much as possible.

Over the last year or so I have noticed that they seem to spend far more time over here than at the neighbor's. I think a big part of that is that we are more available to our kids. For one, I am a stay at home parent and my husband gets off pretty early, so we are just around more. But also, we are far more likely to agree to take the kids on a walk to the pond across the street and that sort of thing. We have a lot of toys available in our main living space and we are around even if the kids are playing together and don't need us directly. We may be involved in other activities like doing dishes, but we are able and willing to stop and do something with the kids instead.

I know we are very lucky to have nice neighbors and it might not work out this way for everyone, but it has turned out to be a lovely situation for us despite our early worries and hesitancy. We do favors for each other, share things, etc. I have someone right next door that can take my kids for me if there is ever an emergency situation and I need someone to take one or both of my kids (we have no family in the area). My kids know the children and the parents well enough to be comfortable there (and we have even gotten to know other family members or friends of the kids who spend time there frequently).

They may not parent the way we do, and there are things that make me uncomfortable at times (like yelling) but we have also gotten to the point where we are very glad to have them for our neighbors and to have such nice kids nearby who want to play with our kids. It is worth making an intentional effort to get to know the other family. Maybe invite the parents over sometime as well?

-Annie