How not to post to the discussion
Sandra Dodd
In five minutes, in posts timed 11:29, 11:30, 11:32 and 11:33 pm someone wrote some things rude enough to get thrown out of just about any meeting or gathering. She hasn't been thrown out, though. I know that sometimes people calm down and think, after getting all riled up. I know that sometimes when someone is posting late at night there's alcohol or exhaustion involved.
But five minutes wasn't enough time to have read the four posts to which she was responding, and to have thought about them.
In response to this from Glenda, "Sandra recommends to read a little, try a little, wait a while, and watch. Reread the thread and let it roll around in your mind for several days, taking irritation out of the picture. Maybe there will be an "ah-ha" moment for you. Or maybe not. But I bet there WILL be for *someone* who's been reading this thread"...
...the person wrote:
you seriously need help! psychological help! I've been reading this
list since 2003! from my yahoo email - duh! I just moved all my
lists to a separate email address so they wouldn't fill my main
mailbox. How ridiculous you all are - I said I was looking for help
and suggestions, and the only thing you did was assume and accuse -
where is the "discussion" there? You all give unschooling a very very
bad name.
--------------------------------------------------
Sandra note:
Had she actually reread the thread instead of posting, more than one life would have been better.
---------------------------------------------------
This was in response to Marina, whose post was also nice, and written of her own free will in her volunteer time, in order to be helpful:
-=-what the heck is any of this post supposed to mean? and how
is it related to my question? If you don't have any first
hand experience with allergies then why are you posting? -=-
----------------------------------------------------
Sandra note:
This isn't a discussion about allergies. It's about unschooling.
But Marina was writing about food and allergies, and ended with " I found as a La Leche Leader many babies who were rejecting foods, later were identified as being allergic." Yet someone was rude to her.
------------------------------------------------------
This one was directed toward me:
"you are not interested in examining anything and I feel very
very sorry for the poor souls who get taken in by your
pretending to offer anything - except your own defense of
NEGLECT "
and also to me, though about another e-mail reporting the changes in a mom's beliefs after she actually saw her children turn down sweets:
-=-Sandra you really are an idiot if you think that this trumps
physical science -=-
So, to the unnamed author of that vitriol, don't drink and post. If you weren't drinking, don't wind yourself up into a fury and post a bunch of rude crap on my list ever again. It certainly doesn't seem to reflect an eight-year familiarity with this discussion.
As was noted by a couple of posters, "physical science" covers a large area, and not all nutritionists agree, and few nutrition-faddists agree, and not all allergists agree, and not all evidence is equally valid.
Evidence to the contrary of "physical science" does, every time, throw a shadow of doubt on the validity of the "science." That point was also being made in this discussion. Unschooling itself goes against educational research, and so people look at WHY the educational research exists, who approved and published it, and what their motives are.
But seriously... in addition to the insults, the use of
"duh"
"ridiculous" and
"idiot" are enough that if it had happened at my house, I would have said "go home."
http://sandradodd.com/issues/ridiculous
Sandra
But five minutes wasn't enough time to have read the four posts to which she was responding, and to have thought about them.
In response to this from Glenda, "Sandra recommends to read a little, try a little, wait a while, and watch. Reread the thread and let it roll around in your mind for several days, taking irritation out of the picture. Maybe there will be an "ah-ha" moment for you. Or maybe not. But I bet there WILL be for *someone* who's been reading this thread"...
...the person wrote:
you seriously need help! psychological help! I've been reading this
list since 2003! from my yahoo email - duh! I just moved all my
lists to a separate email address so they wouldn't fill my main
mailbox. How ridiculous you all are - I said I was looking for help
and suggestions, and the only thing you did was assume and accuse -
where is the "discussion" there? You all give unschooling a very very
bad name.
--------------------------------------------------
Sandra note:
Had she actually reread the thread instead of posting, more than one life would have been better.
---------------------------------------------------
This was in response to Marina, whose post was also nice, and written of her own free will in her volunteer time, in order to be helpful:
-=-what the heck is any of this post supposed to mean? and how
is it related to my question? If you don't have any first
hand experience with allergies then why are you posting? -=-
----------------------------------------------------
Sandra note:
This isn't a discussion about allergies. It's about unschooling.
But Marina was writing about food and allergies, and ended with " I found as a La Leche Leader many babies who were rejecting foods, later were identified as being allergic." Yet someone was rude to her.
------------------------------------------------------
This one was directed toward me:
"you are not interested in examining anything and I feel very
very sorry for the poor souls who get taken in by your
pretending to offer anything - except your own defense of
NEGLECT "
and also to me, though about another e-mail reporting the changes in a mom's beliefs after she actually saw her children turn down sweets:
-=-Sandra you really are an idiot if you think that this trumps
physical science -=-
So, to the unnamed author of that vitriol, don't drink and post. If you weren't drinking, don't wind yourself up into a fury and post a bunch of rude crap on my list ever again. It certainly doesn't seem to reflect an eight-year familiarity with this discussion.
As was noted by a couple of posters, "physical science" covers a large area, and not all nutritionists agree, and few nutrition-faddists agree, and not all allergists agree, and not all evidence is equally valid.
Evidence to the contrary of "physical science" does, every time, throw a shadow of doubt on the validity of the "science." That point was also being made in this discussion. Unschooling itself goes against educational research, and so people look at WHY the educational research exists, who approved and published it, and what their motives are.
But seriously... in addition to the insults, the use of
"duh"
"ridiculous" and
"idiot" are enough that if it had happened at my house, I would have said "go home."
http://sandradodd.com/issues/ridiculous
Sandra
Carl-BetteAnne
Sandra~ I thank GOD for you and your refreshing words and how you see things. It helps me grow as a human being and I do not know how you have the patience some days. All you do to help us Unschoolers and to get scathing remarks and yet you do not give up. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. That you can see past the few who do not want to examine themselves~ and grow from what you graciously share, to their loss and to their child's detriment. Thank you for not giving up for us who truly want to learn.
Love,~
(¯`v´¯)
`*.¸.*´
¸..´ ¸..*¨)¸..*¨)
(¸..´(¸.. (¸..´¸¸..¨¯`..¸¸.?
BetteAnne Camagna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Love,~
(¯`v´¯)
`*.¸.*´
¸..´ ¸..*¨)¸..*¨)
(¸..´(¸.. (¸..´¸¸..¨¯`..¸¸.?
BetteAnne Camagna
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-"you are not interested in examining anything and I feel very
very sorry for the poor souls who get taken in by your
pretending to offer anything - except your own defense of
NEGLECT "-=-
I have examined quite a few things in my life, and in the time I've been unschooling.
I offer this:
http://sandradodd.com
and this discussion
one at facebook (I don't love it as I love this one)
http://www.facebook.com/groups/303347574750/
Probably the best thing these days is Just Add Light and Stir
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/
And I'm speaking several places this spring-to-fall
Massachusetts in two months and then several others.
http://speakingsandradodd.blogspot.com/
Those aren't pretend. They won't help everyone, just those who are interested in the ideas.
People can't be "taken in" by that, because they're all where they live, where they are, thinking their own thoughts.
I have NEVER defended neglect. I have been vocal against half-assed unschooling. I've spent some considerable time, energy and money helping provide resources so that people can understand it better.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
very sorry for the poor souls who get taken in by your
pretending to offer anything - except your own defense of
NEGLECT "-=-
I have examined quite a few things in my life, and in the time I've been unschooling.
I offer this:
http://sandradodd.com
and this discussion
one at facebook (I don't love it as I love this one)
http://www.facebook.com/groups/303347574750/
Probably the best thing these days is Just Add Light and Stir
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/
And I'm speaking several places this spring-to-fall
Massachusetts in two months and then several others.
http://speakingsandradodd.blogspot.com/
Those aren't pretend. They won't help everyone, just those who are interested in the ideas.
People can't be "taken in" by that, because they're all where they live, where they are, thinking their own thoughts.
I have NEVER defended neglect. I have been vocal against half-assed unschooling. I've spent some considerable time, energy and money helping provide resources so that people can understand it better.
Sandra
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chris ester
On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 10:37 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
parent, especially a parent going against the grain. I have to admit to
often being very confident (over confident?) that eventually I will get it
right and that as long as I am open and honest and keeping the family
relationships as first priority, we will all be able to forgive each other
for our screw ups. By being open and honest, I mean owning it when I mess
up and apologizing to the kids/husband when I make choices that aren't so
great and then working to fix what I messed up. We are all works in
progress.
That being said, I think that many times a parent can feel desperate; not
to mess up their kids, to feel like they know what they are doing, to
"prove" that she/he is doing the parenting thing "right" to relatives and
friends. My way of dealing with disapproving relatives was to let them
know in no uncertain terms that I and my husband were the parents and would
be making the decisions about our family, which included our kids, and that
their approval was "neither required nor desired".
I forget that many people find it very difficult to deal with any
conflict--even conflict that they perceive from an email list, and so
sometimes they just "break" and start the equivalent of a tantrum in type.
So, while I agree that it is NOT acceptable to dump on anyone like that
whether in person or in print, I think I get why it happens.
Thank you Sandra for your diligence with this list and for sparing the rest
of us the full impact of the unnamed author's tirade.
:)
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **I often forget how frightening and anxiety provoking it can be to be a
>
>
> >>>> I know that sometimes people calm down and think, after getting all
> riled up. I know that sometimes when someone is posting late at night
> there's alcohol or exhaustion involved. <<<<<
>
parent, especially a parent going against the grain. I have to admit to
often being very confident (over confident?) that eventually I will get it
right and that as long as I am open and honest and keeping the family
relationships as first priority, we will all be able to forgive each other
for our screw ups. By being open and honest, I mean owning it when I mess
up and apologizing to the kids/husband when I make choices that aren't so
great and then working to fix what I messed up. We are all works in
progress.
That being said, I think that many times a parent can feel desperate; not
to mess up their kids, to feel like they know what they are doing, to
"prove" that she/he is doing the parenting thing "right" to relatives and
friends. My way of dealing with disapproving relatives was to let them
know in no uncertain terms that I and my husband were the parents and would
be making the decisions about our family, which included our kids, and that
their approval was "neither required nor desired".
I forget that many people find it very difficult to deal with any
conflict--even conflict that they perceive from an email list, and so
sometimes they just "break" and start the equivalent of a tantrum in type.
So, while I agree that it is NOT acceptable to dump on anyone like that
whether in person or in print, I think I get why it happens.
Thank you Sandra for your diligence with this list and for sparing the rest
of us the full impact of the unnamed author's tirade.
> >>>>Sandra note:I love the sentiment of this note so much that I wanted to leave it here.
> Had she actually reread the thread instead of posting, more than one life
> would have been better.<<<<<
>
:)
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kimberly Sims
(If this comes twice, I am truly sorry I promised I didn't send it twice. :) )
~"I've spent some considerable time, energy and money"~
And I believe this sentence is worded *exactly* the way it should be !
I can not believe how much of peoples own time that is shared on this list, not
including others, *especially* when they don't "have to". Ones that have been
unschooling WAY before I even had children. Other people have cashed in all
their knowledge with paid hourly consultations. Not here, nope FREE.
I can not tell you or thank members of this list enough! They have saved me so
much $$$$ in marriage and family counseling it almost feels like I am taking
advantage of you all (Another reason for blogging, to pay it forward :) ).
Seriously I don't know how you guys can do it, taking the heat and answering the
same questions over and over. I honestly don't have your patience.
People share links here to be read *because* these questions have been asked
about for *years* and the answers saved. That *should* tell you something about
who is sharing their knowledge here.
I , my husband, and my 3 kids (21, 11, and 6) thank you all SO much!
Kim
Messages in this topic (2)
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
~"I've spent some considerable time, energy and money"~
And I believe this sentence is worded *exactly* the way it should be !
I can not believe how much of peoples own time that is shared on this list, not
including others, *especially* when they don't "have to". Ones that have been
unschooling WAY before I even had children. Other people have cashed in all
their knowledge with paid hourly consultations. Not here, nope FREE.
I can not tell you or thank members of this list enough! They have saved me so
much $$$$ in marriage and family counseling it almost feels like I am taking
advantage of you all (Another reason for blogging, to pay it forward :) ).
Seriously I don't know how you guys can do it, taking the heat and answering the
same questions over and over. I honestly don't have your patience.
People share links here to be read *because* these questions have been asked
about for *years* and the answers saved. That *should* tell you something about
who is sharing their knowledge here.
I , my husband, and my 3 kids (21, 11, and 6) thank you all SO much!
Kim
Messages in this topic (2)
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<"So, while I agree that it is NOT acceptable to dump on anyone like that
whether in person or in print, I think I get why it happens. ">>>>
I do not completely agree with this.
I do understand a person feeling defensive, very uncomfortable and even shocked ( I have felt all that at different times).
But there is no excuse to write back like that and call people idiots and worse.
I know Sandra has saved posts that even had the F word directed at her or/and the list.
Even I have received several attacks online and I am amazed at how much Sandra and others are patient
and willing to continue to help me and others.
I am surprised by the things parents write and that explains so much why their children are
behaving.
Just a few weeks ago on a list I own I got several crazy e-mails from a mom.
No wonder her child was causing trouble at a gaming server if that is how her mom reacted.
What I love about the discussions here is that I have learned/am learning how to make my choices
and not think " is this unschooling or not".
Because many people are looking for unschooling rules to follow instead of thinking what choices
are going to be more peaceful, will lead to learning and a better relationship.
I screw up a lot.
The difference is that now I stop and think about it and I can see what I can do next time or what choices
will be better. I can see where I did not stop to think about my action and I just reacted with no though.
I think I am getting better at doing the thinking before now.
Not because someone wrote what I should do but because I am able to stop and think what choices
will get me closer to my principles , closer to unschooling.
If some of my principles are learning, having a safe and peaceful home, a close and supportive relationship with my children and husband, then I can chose a better action to take or words to use.
If someone comes here and wants to follow rules they will be very disappointed.
If someone comes here because they want their kids to have total freedom they will not find support for that.
If someone comes here and wants people to pat them in the back and tell them what they want to hear this list will not work for them.
Here you will find discussion that can help you think and make better choices if what you want is to live
a peaceful, connected and joyful unschooling life where learning is everywhere including learning what food makes us feel better and which may not.
Thank you Sandra and all the other wonderful voices of this list. I am learning so much from you.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
whether in person or in print, I think I get why it happens. ">>>>
I do not completely agree with this.
I do understand a person feeling defensive, very uncomfortable and even shocked ( I have felt all that at different times).
But there is no excuse to write back like that and call people idiots and worse.
I know Sandra has saved posts that even had the F word directed at her or/and the list.
Even I have received several attacks online and I am amazed at how much Sandra and others are patient
and willing to continue to help me and others.
I am surprised by the things parents write and that explains so much why their children are
behaving.
Just a few weeks ago on a list I own I got several crazy e-mails from a mom.
No wonder her child was causing trouble at a gaming server if that is how her mom reacted.
What I love about the discussions here is that I have learned/am learning how to make my choices
and not think " is this unschooling or not".
Because many people are looking for unschooling rules to follow instead of thinking what choices
are going to be more peaceful, will lead to learning and a better relationship.
I screw up a lot.
The difference is that now I stop and think about it and I can see what I can do next time or what choices
will be better. I can see where I did not stop to think about my action and I just reacted with no though.
I think I am getting better at doing the thinking before now.
Not because someone wrote what I should do but because I am able to stop and think what choices
will get me closer to my principles , closer to unschooling.
If some of my principles are learning, having a safe and peaceful home, a close and supportive relationship with my children and husband, then I can chose a better action to take or words to use.
If someone comes here and wants to follow rules they will be very disappointed.
If someone comes here because they want their kids to have total freedom they will not find support for that.
If someone comes here and wants people to pat them in the back and tell them what they want to hear this list will not work for them.
Here you will find discussion that can help you think and make better choices if what you want is to live
a peaceful, connected and joyful unschooling life where learning is everywhere including learning what food makes us feel better and which may not.
Thank you Sandra and all the other wonderful voices of this list. I am learning so much from you.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Deb Lewis
***That being said, I think that many times a parent can feel desperate; not
to mess up their kids, to feel like they know what they are doing, to
"prove" that she/he is doing the parenting thing "right" to relatives and
friends. ***
Yes, I think that was all bundled together with a desire for people on this list to say comforting words of reassurance.
And when the discussion was about learning and principles and looking right at the child ...that got interpreted as criticism and maybe worse, ridicule and rejection.
It still surprises me that people can have so much of their emotion tied up in the approval of strangers on an email list when at any moment they could look away from their computer at their own up close and in person kid and make thoughtful choices.
She will go away thinking and saying people here were harsh and mean and worse, and not remember that she’s the one who got personal and said, “idiot” to someone who was trying to help.
No one *has to* read here or believe anything they read here. *Everyone* who can read here can also read elsewhere, can think their own thoughts, and make their own choices, and embrace or ignore their own responsibilities.
Some people can only see their own life, their own problem and so any discussion can become personal, directed at them, about them. It’s really good for parents to overcome that because they will be better parents if life and decision making can be about what’s good and right for their family and not about what feeds the parent’s emotional neediness.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
to mess up their kids, to feel like they know what they are doing, to
"prove" that she/he is doing the parenting thing "right" to relatives and
friends. ***
Yes, I think that was all bundled together with a desire for people on this list to say comforting words of reassurance.
And when the discussion was about learning and principles and looking right at the child ...that got interpreted as criticism and maybe worse, ridicule and rejection.
It still surprises me that people can have so much of their emotion tied up in the approval of strangers on an email list when at any moment they could look away from their computer at their own up close and in person kid and make thoughtful choices.
She will go away thinking and saying people here were harsh and mean and worse, and not remember that she’s the one who got personal and said, “idiot” to someone who was trying to help.
No one *has to* read here or believe anything they read here. *Everyone* who can read here can also read elsewhere, can think their own thoughts, and make their own choices, and embrace or ignore their own responsibilities.
Some people can only see their own life, their own problem and so any discussion can become personal, directed at them, about them. It’s really good for parents to overcome that because they will be better parents if life and decision making can be about what’s good and right for their family and not about what feeds the parent’s emotional neediness.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
>>>can not believe how much of peoples own time that is shared on thislist, not including others, *especially* when they don't "have to". Ones
that have been unschooling WAY before I even had children. Other people
have cashed in all their knowledge with paid hourly consultations. >>>
I'm 60 and my youngest child is 21 and I'm still finding it pretty
endlessly gratifying to be around and with and helpful to people who are
being thoughtful, kind, wonderful parents! And I'm at the point where the
unschooling parents I'm talking with and even hanging out with are my
children's ages and THAT thrills me beyond belief. It brings tears of joy
to my eyes to think that something I have said might have a ripple effect
on future generations! Joe and Melissa who were at the ALL Symposium are
the exact same age as my oldest daughter and I got to chat with them and
enjoy these very young and very thoughtful unschooling parents. What more
could someone ask of their "volunteer work" than to be able to see the
results of it right before our own eyes - to see those bright and curious
and happy children with their extraordinary supportive parents. I make sure
I get to see unschooling parents being wonderful with their children on a
regular basis. I go to unschooling conferences, and I go to our local
unschooling park day almost every week where I always get a "fix" of seeing
lots of parents being sweet and sometimes get to witness an exceptional
interaction of a parent really listening carefully to a child and being
very thoughtful and growing as parent.
I don't feel put upon or self-sacrificing by continuing to offer
unschooling ideas, analysis, advice, and discussion. I feel really really
lucky that people are interested in it and that I still get to participate!
-pam
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Mar 16, 2012, at 12:45 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY wrote:
It's helped us write better descriptions for the list by understanding why people were so hostile when their posts dissected.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But there is no excuse to write back like that and call people idiots and worse.Understanding isn't the same as agreeing with the behavior or condoning it.
It's helped us write better descriptions for the list by understanding why people were so hostile when their posts dissected.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-
Yes. There are excuses. "I was tired.... cranky... drunk... pissed off because I couldn't get people to say 'what you're doing is as good as anything any of us are doing.' "
Something people don't expect, I think, is how much they reveal of themselves in those instances when they lose it.
When something seems WAY out of the blue, it's coming from that person. Talk of mental health problems or idiocy don't come up in my normal thoughts and speech. If things like "duh" and "ridiculous" pop out easily, they've pretty near the surface.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But there is no excuse to write back like that and call people idiots and worse.Joyce wrote: "Understanding isn't the same as agreeing with the behavior or condoning it."
Yes. There are excuses. "I was tired.... cranky... drunk... pissed off because I couldn't get people to say 'what you're doing is as good as anything any of us are doing.' "
Something people don't expect, I think, is how much they reveal of themselves in those instances when they lose it.
When something seems WAY out of the blue, it's coming from that person. Talk of mental health problems or idiocy don't come up in my normal thoughts and speech. If things like "duh" and "ridiculous" pop out easily, they've pretty near the surface.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]