Chores in a family farm
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
A friend that is newer to unschooling, about a year into it, asked me a question today and I asked her if she wanted me to
ask it here. She is a reader here. I am asking it annonymously .
Here it is:
* * Friend-Alex, Just curious, can you tell me how you deal with unschooling while living on a farm and the need to have kids helping out with the chores? I am having a hard time tying chores into the unschooling aspect of things??
* At our place it is a known thing that everyone is needed to get the work done. It's hard because not everyone is always happy with it.
* I feel like a general giving orders.
*
* ALEX- because my kids are not required to do chores I do not have to deal with that. Can I post this at the AlwaysLearning group or the Radical unschooling info here on FB for you ? I can do it anonymously?
Friend-|
* Yes U can.
* I am having a hard time with that one.
* I don't know how you go about that with the work load we have here.
* Donnie expects everyone to always be there. He says they need to learn responsibility.
* So can I really even think we could unschool??
* maybe not??
* Sometimes chores turn into a big argument, sometimes kids don't want to help.
* sigh. Interested to hear some responses.
* from people.
* It's way different then a city job forsure.
* any place you think is good.
* It's such a hard subject, I wonder about it all the time. How to handle it.
* I think my husband can never change:((
* His world is work, work, work.
* I wish this could be easier.
* but it is a HUGE point of contention here.
* I feel like I am always saying" Hurry up it's time for chores"
* I get it but he doesn't. Yes I also understand the need for help too. So HOW to see it?? I don't know
-=-=-=-=-
Alex Polikowsky
*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ask it here. She is a reader here. I am asking it annonymously .
Here it is:
* * Friend-Alex, Just curious, can you tell me how you deal with unschooling while living on a farm and the need to have kids helping out with the chores? I am having a hard time tying chores into the unschooling aspect of things??
* At our place it is a known thing that everyone is needed to get the work done. It's hard because not everyone is always happy with it.
* I feel like a general giving orders.
*
* ALEX- because my kids are not required to do chores I do not have to deal with that. Can I post this at the AlwaysLearning group or the Radical unschooling info here on FB for you ? I can do it anonymously?
Friend-|
* Yes U can.
* I am having a hard time with that one.
* I don't know how you go about that with the work load we have here.
* Donnie expects everyone to always be there. He says they need to learn responsibility.
* So can I really even think we could unschool??
* maybe not??
* Sometimes chores turn into a big argument, sometimes kids don't want to help.
* sigh. Interested to hear some responses.
* from people.
* It's way different then a city job forsure.
* any place you think is good.
* It's such a hard subject, I wonder about it all the time. How to handle it.
* I think my husband can never change:((
* His world is work, work, work.
* I wish this could be easier.
* but it is a HUGE point of contention here.
* I feel like I am always saying" Hurry up it's time for chores"
* I get it but he doesn't. Yes I also understand the need for help too. So HOW to see it?? I don't know
-=-=-=-=-
Alex Polikowsky
*
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
Did they HAVE kids in order to have free farmhands?
I'd question the idea that the kids' work is actually necessary.
Seems like hiring one hardworking person would way more than make up for
the grudging contribution of the kids and release them from the time spent
battling and let their relationships blossom.
Would they have to give up the farm if one of their kids hadn't been born?
What would they do if one of them was incapacitated and could not work?
Sell the farm?
We have a pool. At first we tried to maintain it ourselves, but we'd let it
go and it kept getting out of whack. So we got a pool guy and we've paid
someone to take care of it for the past 25 years. Occasionally, we
considered canceling the pool service and asking the kids to handle it.
After all, they loved playing in the pool a LOT. But I have friends who
hate their pool because it is the source of weekly battles - they think
their kids should clean it because they use it. My kids have LOVED our
pool and we've had nothing but joy related to it. I'm sitting here looking
out at my clean and sparkling pool right now and remembering my kids
splashing and playing in it and I have not a single tiny regret that we
paid someone else to keep it clean all these years. So worth it.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'd question the idea that the kids' work is actually necessary.
Seems like hiring one hardworking person would way more than make up for
the grudging contribution of the kids and release them from the time spent
battling and let their relationships blossom.
Would they have to give up the farm if one of their kids hadn't been born?
What would they do if one of them was incapacitated and could not work?
Sell the farm?
We have a pool. At first we tried to maintain it ourselves, but we'd let it
go and it kept getting out of whack. So we got a pool guy and we've paid
someone to take care of it for the past 25 years. Occasionally, we
considered canceling the pool service and asking the kids to handle it.
After all, they loved playing in the pool a LOT. But I have friends who
hate their pool because it is the source of weekly battles - they think
their kids should clean it because they use it. My kids have LOVED our
pool and we've had nothing but joy related to it. I'm sitting here looking
out at my clean and sparkling pool right now and remembering my kids
splashing and playing in it and I have not a single tiny regret that we
paid someone else to keep it clean all these years. So worth it.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-* At our place it is a known thing that everyone is needed to get the work done. It's hard because not everyone is always happy with it.-=-
Many "known things" turn out to be made of options and choices. It's easy to call them "fact" or "everyone knows" or "obviously," but that doesn't make them solid.
-=-* I don't know how you go about that with the work load we have here.
* Donnie expects everyone to always be there. He says they need to learn responsibility.-=-
I don't know how old these kids are, but the child labor laws were designed in part for safety and to get kids into school. If child labor laws are violated, or appear to violated, the kids could be ordered to attend school, or worse.
-=-* I feel like I am always saying" Hurry up it's time for chores"
* I get it but he doesn't. Yes I also understand the need for help too. So HOW to see it?? I don't know-=-
What if you hadn't had any children?
What if one of your children was unable to walk, or otherwise too weak to work?
What if one of your children had cerebral palsy or something so that you had to stay with him or her all the time in the house and you couldn't work, either?
What if your contention and arguments turned to running away or suicide? Then who would do the chores?
Is it worth it?
But if your husband can't change, do as much unschooling as you can around what he requires, and live with it. It's better to maintain the marriage and have the kids in school than to get a divorce.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Many "known things" turn out to be made of options and choices. It's easy to call them "fact" or "everyone knows" or "obviously," but that doesn't make them solid.
-=-* I don't know how you go about that with the work load we have here.
* Donnie expects everyone to always be there. He says they need to learn responsibility.-=-
I don't know how old these kids are, but the child labor laws were designed in part for safety and to get kids into school. If child labor laws are violated, or appear to violated, the kids could be ordered to attend school, or worse.
-=-* I feel like I am always saying" Hurry up it's time for chores"
* I get it but he doesn't. Yes I also understand the need for help too. So HOW to see it?? I don't know-=-
What if you hadn't had any children?
What if one of your children was unable to walk, or otherwise too weak to work?
What if one of your children had cerebral palsy or something so that you had to stay with him or her all the time in the house and you couldn't work, either?
What if your contention and arguments turned to running away or suicide? Then who would do the chores?
Is it worth it?
But if your husband can't change, do as much unschooling as you can around what he requires, and live with it. It's better to maintain the marriage and have the kids in school than to get a divorce.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
"But if your husband can't change, do as much unschooling as you can around what he requires, and live with it. It's better to maintain the marriage and have the kids in school than to get a divorce."
-=-=-=-=-=-
I think this is he heart of the issue for this family. Mom wants to go all the way, dad does not and requires chores. She is lost in how to do the best she can for her children and her family while keeping the marriage intact.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-=-=-=-=-
I think this is he heart of the issue for this family. Mom wants to go all the way, dad does not and requires chores. She is lost in how to do the best she can for her children and her family while keeping the marriage intact.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think this is he heart of the issue for this family. Mom wants to go all the way, dad does not and requires chores. She is lost in how to do the best she can for her children and her family while keeping the marriage intact.-=-
But she CAN'T "go all the way." Not all by herself. Not any more than she can buy a yacht or move to New Zealand if her husband doesn't want to.
It's a family decisions, and one parents can't do it unilaterally.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But she CAN'T "go all the way." Not all by herself. Not any more than she can buy a yacht or move to New Zealand if her husband doesn't want to.
It's a family decisions, and one parents can't do it unilaterally.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vicki Dennis
Is the husband willing to have the time the kids would typically be at
school be a time they remain unavailable to help with the farm?
Yes, they would still need to get up early enough to do morning chores and
the "after school" time would not be theirs but if they are living rurally,
then with a long school bus ride, there might be as much as 8 hours a
weekday or even more where they can "unschool".
Look at the outside of school hours chores as being like a job that they
have that makes it possible for them to not have to waste that big chunk of
time elsewhere. In my opinion that is much better than being in school
to maintain the marriage (and still having all outside of school hours
taken up with chores).
For me, the big question would be whether the parents (especially the
father) could cope with the idea that "school hour time" belongs totally to
the kids. That it is not permissible to assign school chores to learn
academic responsibility.
vicki
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:48 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
school be a time they remain unavailable to help with the farm?
Yes, they would still need to get up early enough to do morning chores and
the "after school" time would not be theirs but if they are living rurally,
then with a long school bus ride, there might be as much as 8 hours a
weekday or even more where they can "unschool".
Look at the outside of school hours chores as being like a job that they
have that makes it possible for them to not have to waste that big chunk of
time elsewhere. In my opinion that is much better than being in school
to maintain the marriage (and still having all outside of school hours
taken up with chores).
For me, the big question would be whether the parents (especially the
father) could cope with the idea that "school hour time" belongs totally to
the kids. That it is not permissible to assign school chores to learn
academic responsibility.
vicki
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:48 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
> **[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
> "But if your husband can't change, do as much unschooling as you can
> around what he requires, and live with it. It's better to maintain the
> marriage and have the kids in school than to get a divorce."
>
> -=-=-=-=-=-
> I think this is he heart of the issue for this family. Mom wants to go all
> the way, dad does not and requires chores. She is lost in how to do the
> best she can for her children and her family while keeping the marriage
> intact.
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Vicki Dennis
Might even factor in what is currently "homework time" to increase the time
that assigned chores are disallowed.
It would still require some family agreement and there would definitely be
pitfalls.
I would even hope that eventually a kid could negotiate to swap out some of
the hours so that he could work with his father part of the morning or
afternoon hours in order to utilize evening hours for some other
interest. A lot depends on children's ages and interests.
I personally am not opposed to child labor within the family when it is
truly needed. And I think that on a farm it may well be truly needed (that
hiring someone else is not always an option). I do not support chores for
the sake of chores or to build character. I do support respect given to
the child who is helping keep the family together in their own space with a
reasonable living standard. If the child's work is valuable then the
child's autonomy should be recognized.
Having said all that, I do NOT like the idea of a child using wages (even
imaginary ones) from helping the family to pay to the family (even if just
in a bookkeeping fashion) for room and board. I'm pretty big on we are a
family not a corporation.
vicki
that assigned chores are disallowed.
It would still require some family agreement and there would definitely be
pitfalls.
I would even hope that eventually a kid could negotiate to swap out some of
the hours so that he could work with his father part of the morning or
afternoon hours in order to utilize evening hours for some other
interest. A lot depends on children's ages and interests.
I personally am not opposed to child labor within the family when it is
truly needed. And I think that on a farm it may well be truly needed (that
hiring someone else is not always an option). I do not support chores for
the sake of chores or to build character. I do support respect given to
the child who is helping keep the family together in their own space with a
reasonable living standard. If the child's work is valuable then the
child's autonomy should be recognized.
Having said all that, I do NOT like the idea of a child using wages (even
imaginary ones) from helping the family to pay to the family (even if just
in a bookkeeping fashion) for room and board. I'm pretty big on we are a
family not a corporation.
vicki
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 5:17 PM, Vicki Dennis <vicki@...> wrote:
> Is the husband willing to have the time the kids would typically be at
> school be a time they remain unavailable to help with the farm?
>
> Yes, they would still need to get up early enough to do morning chores and
> the "after school" time would not be theirs but if they are living rurally,
> then with a long school bus ride, there might be as much as 8 hours a
> weekday or even more where they can "unschool".
>
> Look at the outside of school hours chores as being like a job that they
> have that makes it possible for them to not have to waste that big chunk of
> time elsewhere. In my opinion that is much better than being in school
> to maintain the marriage (and still having all outside of school hours
> taken up with chores).
>
> For me, the big question would be whether the parents (especially the
> father) could cope with the idea that "school hour time" belongs totally to
> the kids. That it is not permissible to assign school chores to learn
> academic responsibility.
>
> vicki
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:48 PM, BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <
> polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
>> **
>>
>>
>> "But if your husband can't change, do as much unschooling as you can
>> around what he requires, and live with it. It's better to maintain the
>> marriage and have the kids in school than to get a divorce."
>>
>> -=-=-=-=-=-
>> I think this is he heart of the issue for this family. Mom wants to go
>> all the way, dad does not and requires chores. She is lost in how to do the
>> best she can for her children and her family while keeping the marriage
>> intact.
>>
>>
>> Alex Polikowsky
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-That it is not permissible to assign school chores to learn
academic responsibility.-=-
"Permissible" isn't a good term to use here.
-=-Yes, they would still need to get up early enough to do morning chores and
the "after school" time would not be theirs but if they are living rurally,
then with a long school bus ride, there might be as much as 8 hours a
weekday or even more where they can "unschool".-=-???
This is confusing.
Do you mean to claim all the time they would be on the bus and at school as "unschooling time"? And the time they would do chores for or with their dad as... not-learning time?
Sandra
academic responsibility.-=-
"Permissible" isn't a good term to use here.
-=-Yes, they would still need to get up early enough to do morning chores and
the "after school" time would not be theirs but if they are living rurally,
then with a long school bus ride, there might be as much as 8 hours a
weekday or even more where they can "unschool".-=-???
This is confusing.
Do you mean to claim all the time they would be on the bus and at school as "unschooling time"? And the time they would do chores for or with their dad as... not-learning time?
Sandra
Vicki Dennis
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 5:31 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
not "totally on board" yet with unschooling. The emphasis on
"responsibility" concerns me. If the compromise is that family
responsibility includes chores, I think it does need to be addressed that
not going away to school does not mean that the father adds academic
chores.
having divorced parents. I agree with that belief but was offering a
compromise that might be still better..............that would provide a
large block of time for unschooling but still meet the father's needs.
I'm not sure I would ever consider ANY time as not-learning time. The
distinction is in there being compulsory attendance only at chores, not
compulsory attendance at a school. Even a school at home.
From the mother's description it seemed that strict guidelines might be
needed for the father. So there would not be spillover. I suggested
the block of time they would spend at an institutional school to be
offlimits to a father who thought they should be "always available" for
chores.
I had written a further explanation but perhaps yours and my post crossed
in cyberspace.
vicki
> **I thought it might be a more understandable description if the father is
>
>
> -=-That it is not permissible to assign school chores to learn
> academic responsibility.-=-
>
> "Permissible" isn't a good term to use here.
>
not "totally on board" yet with unschooling. The emphasis on
"responsibility" concerns me. If the compromise is that family
responsibility includes chores, I think it does need to be addressed that
not going away to school does not mean that the father adds academic
chores.
>I thought you were suggesting that it was better to be in school than
> -=-Yes, they would still need to get up early enough to do morning chores
> and
>
> the "after school" time would not be theirs but if they are living rurally,
> then with a long school bus ride, there might be as much as 8 hours a
> weekday or even more where they can "unschool".-=-???
>
> This is confusing.
> Do you mean to claim all the time they would be on the bus and at school
> as "unschooling time"? And the time they would do chores for or with their
> dad as... not-learning time?
>
>
having divorced parents. I agree with that belief but was offering a
compromise that might be still better..............that would provide a
large block of time for unschooling but still meet the father's needs.
I'm not sure I would ever consider ANY time as not-learning time. The
distinction is in there being compulsory attendance only at chores, not
compulsory attendance at a school. Even a school at home.
From the mother's description it seemed that strict guidelines might be
needed for the father. So there would not be spillover. I suggested
the block of time they would spend at an institutional school to be
offlimits to a father who thought they should be "always available" for
chores.
I had written a further explanation but perhaps yours and my post crossed
in cyberspace.
vicki
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Pam Sorooshian
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Vicki Dennis <vicki@...> wrote:
his office and type and file for him?
Why should kids whose parents decided to be farmers have to work in their
parents' business any more than my kids should have to help in my husband's
office?
If the father can't be reasoned with, then I also agree with going along to
get along as much as is necessary. That doesn't make it reasonable.
In an unschooling family that has built up really great relationships, the
kids would be willing to help out if it was really needed. There wouldn't
be battles. And the parents would be making all possible attempts to find
ways to support the kids in doing what they wanted to do, which may very
well not include being farm laborers.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I personally am not opposed to child labor within the family when it isIf my husband is overworked at his job should our kids be required to go to
> truly needed. And I think that on a farm it may well be truly needed (that
> hiring someone else is not always an option).
>
his office and type and file for him?
Why should kids whose parents decided to be farmers have to work in their
parents' business any more than my kids should have to help in my husband's
office?
If the father can't be reasoned with, then I also agree with going along to
get along as much as is necessary. That doesn't make it reasonable.
In an unschooling family that has built up really great relationships, the
kids would be willing to help out if it was really needed. There wouldn't
be battles. And the parents would be making all possible attempts to find
ways to support the kids in doing what they wanted to do, which may very
well not include being farm laborers.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vicki Dennis
Is your husband's office a family business or he works for someone else?
If he is overwhelmed and keeping his job or the business not failing
depends on tasks being completed, then, yes, I would expect his spouse or
any competent children to help. If the finances of the business permit
hiring help that would be a good solution but sometimes there is not extra
money. If he is an employee, then his continued employment might depend
on bringing work home and receiving production help from whoever is
available.
I tried to explain in another email that I respect a strong work ethic and
respect families pulling together. I do not approve of "make work" or of
requiring unnecessary chores in order to foster a good character or a
strong work ethic.
Much depends on a child's age and ability. And on how the family
relationships have developed. Takes longer to "undo" forced schooling OR
forced chores.
I remember Sandra giving the example of even toddlers being asked to
respect the need for sleep of an employed adult but still not being sent to
their own bed in their own room with the door closed. I think it possible
for a family farm to have "need" of children's labor as much as a city
family with a day employee has need of the salary earner having undisturbed
sleep times.
As far as learning farm chores even though they did not ask to be
farmers...........I look on it as the family business and not much
different than the family religion or the family language or even the
family dietary habits. The children may change as they age and may
convert in many areas but when young will indeed eat what the family eats
and go to the family religious place and learn the language(s) spoken to
them by the family.
Alex, you said the question had come from someone about 1 year into
unschooling thought. Are the kids still in school? Or even old enough
for school? I do feel there is a difference between a 5 year old and a
15 year old and also it makes a difference how long they may have followed
a traditional rural farm/school lifestyle.
vicki
If he is overwhelmed and keeping his job or the business not failing
depends on tasks being completed, then, yes, I would expect his spouse or
any competent children to help. If the finances of the business permit
hiring help that would be a good solution but sometimes there is not extra
money. If he is an employee, then his continued employment might depend
on bringing work home and receiving production help from whoever is
available.
I tried to explain in another email that I respect a strong work ethic and
respect families pulling together. I do not approve of "make work" or of
requiring unnecessary chores in order to foster a good character or a
strong work ethic.
Much depends on a child's age and ability. And on how the family
relationships have developed. Takes longer to "undo" forced schooling OR
forced chores.
I remember Sandra giving the example of even toddlers being asked to
respect the need for sleep of an employed adult but still not being sent to
their own bed in their own room with the door closed. I think it possible
for a family farm to have "need" of children's labor as much as a city
family with a day employee has need of the salary earner having undisturbed
sleep times.
As far as learning farm chores even though they did not ask to be
farmers...........I look on it as the family business and not much
different than the family religion or the family language or even the
family dietary habits. The children may change as they age and may
convert in many areas but when young will indeed eat what the family eats
and go to the family religious place and learn the language(s) spoken to
them by the family.
Alex, you said the question had come from someone about 1 year into
unschooling thought. Are the kids still in school? Or even old enough
for school? I do feel there is a difference between a 5 year old and a
15 year old and also it makes a difference how long they may have followed
a traditional rural farm/school lifestyle.
vicki
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 6:04 PM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 3:30 PM, Vicki Dennis <vicki@...> wrote:
>
> > I personally am not opposed to child labor within the family when it is
> > truly needed. And I think that on a farm it may well be truly needed
> (that
> > hiring someone else is not always an option).
> >
>
> If my husband is overworked at his job should our kids be required to go to
> his office and type and file for him?
>
> Why should kids whose parents decided to be farmers have to work in their
> parents' business any more than my kids should have to help in my husband's
> office?
>
> If the father can't be reasoned with, then I also agree with going along to
> get along as much as is necessary. That doesn't make it reasonable.
>
> In an unschooling family that has built up really great relationships, the
> kids would be willing to help out if it was really needed. There wouldn't
> be battles. And the parents would be making all possible attempts to find
> ways to support the kids in doing what they wanted to do, which may very
> well not include being farm laborers.
>
> -pam
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Vicki the kids are 15, 15, 15, 14 , 12. I know they do a lot of chores because they have their own animals. One has goats, other shows horses ( very dedicated) , one loves all the machinery work and is awesome at it.
They sound like great kids for what I hear about them.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
They sound like great kids for what I hear about them.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Fri, Feb 24, 2012 at 4:52 PM, Vicki Dennis <vicki@...> wrote:
needed for now. It was a lifestyle choice in which children are expected to
work on the farm regularly. And they aren't little - they are teens.
We differ on the rest of that stuff, too, though. We, my husband and I,
never at all pushed our religion on our kids. We welcomed them to
participate as much or as little as they wished. My oldest child began to
object to speaking Farsi...which she had spoken with her father and other
relatives until she was 4 or so. She would very frequently ask him to speak
English. He chose to do that for her. As far as dietary habits, we didn't
force our habits on our kids - we've always allowed our kids to make their
own choices about foods...we've offered wide varieties of foods and paid
attention to what they liked. They've made different choices over the years
- including being vegetarian and vegan. "I" can't tolerate dairy, but never
imposed that on anybody else in my family. We didn't make them eat our
foods just because they were still young, that's for sure.
Again, I'd expect that unschooled kids would step up and help out if there
was a real need, but I think it is strange how people think farms are
places where kids "ought to" always have work to do but people don't think
kids "ought to" always help their parents with other kinds of businesses.
-pam
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> ..I look on it as the family business and not muchShe didn't say this was an emergency situation where the extra help was
> different than the family religion or the family language or even the
> family dietary habits. The children may change as they age and may
> convert in many areas but when young will indeed eat what the family eats
> and go to the family religious place and learn the language(s) spoken to
> them by the family.>>
>
needed for now. It was a lifestyle choice in which children are expected to
work on the farm regularly. And they aren't little - they are teens.
We differ on the rest of that stuff, too, though. We, my husband and I,
never at all pushed our religion on our kids. We welcomed them to
participate as much or as little as they wished. My oldest child began to
object to speaking Farsi...which she had spoken with her father and other
relatives until she was 4 or so. She would very frequently ask him to speak
English. He chose to do that for her. As far as dietary habits, we didn't
force our habits on our kids - we've always allowed our kids to make their
own choices about foods...we've offered wide varieties of foods and paid
attention to what they liked. They've made different choices over the years
- including being vegetarian and vegan. "I" can't tolerate dairy, but never
imposed that on anybody else in my family. We didn't make them eat our
foods just because they were still young, that's for sure.
Again, I'd expect that unschooled kids would step up and help out if there
was a real need, but I think it is strange how people think farms are
places where kids "ought to" always have work to do but people don't think
kids "ought to" always help their parents with other kinds of businesses.
-pam
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Vicki the kids are 15, 15, 15, 14 , 12. I know they do a lot of chores because they have their own animals. One has goats, other shows horses ( very dedicated) , one loves all the machinery work and is awesome at it.
They sound like great kids for what I hear about them.-=-
Then I think they should stay as they are, and maybe the mom should ask the dad to do his own enforcement. They're practically grown, these kids. Have they been homeschooled up to now and are just thinking of loosening up, or were they in school? That might matter, too. If they've just come out of school, the dad can't have them working more than they did before, I don't think, without it looking like he took them out of school so they could work, which is illegal.
If they were homeschooled before, that'a a different kind of change.
Sandra
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They sound like great kids for what I hear about them.-=-
Then I think they should stay as they are, and maybe the mom should ask the dad to do his own enforcement. They're practically grown, these kids. Have they been homeschooled up to now and are just thinking of loosening up, or were they in school? That might matter, too. If they've just come out of school, the dad can't have them working more than they did before, I don't think, without it looking like he took them out of school so they could work, which is illegal.
If they were homeschooled before, that'a a different kind of change.
Sandra
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
They were in school before. I do not know if the father expects them to work more than before. It does not
sound like that.
Farmers have this thing about chores and how kids are supposed to help out in the family farm and that it helps them
have work ethics or something like that.
It is really ingrained in their lives that kids have to do farm chores.
I do not have any issues with Brian yet but I may have in the future as the kids get older and are "supposed" to be helping out. We talk about it and so far MD will help when we need his help and sometimes just does it because he wants to.
Gigi loves chores but this winter she only wants to go out when our niece is here working with the cattle. She does not like the cold.
For Dairy farmers specially is ingrained in them as they work 365 days a year. No time off or day off at all. All day , many hours of hard work.
I talk to my husband about how it is his choice and how I appreciate what he does.
I step in now that the kids are older and I help him more ( like before we had kids) . That seems to help a lot.
I also never complain about him working or me helping out. I offer many times as he is not really into asking but loves when I come out and help. I think he also loves the companionship.
The only complain Brian has is that he wanted MD to come help more so they could spend more time together.
I have pointed out things MD likes to help with or when MD is busy with something.
Alex Polikowsky
Alex Polikowsky
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sound like that.
Farmers have this thing about chores and how kids are supposed to help out in the family farm and that it helps them
have work ethics or something like that.
It is really ingrained in their lives that kids have to do farm chores.
I do not have any issues with Brian yet but I may have in the future as the kids get older and are "supposed" to be helping out. We talk about it and so far MD will help when we need his help and sometimes just does it because he wants to.
Gigi loves chores but this winter she only wants to go out when our niece is here working with the cattle. She does not like the cold.
For Dairy farmers specially is ingrained in them as they work 365 days a year. No time off or day off at all. All day , many hours of hard work.
I talk to my husband about how it is his choice and how I appreciate what he does.
I step in now that the kids are older and I help him more ( like before we had kids) . That seems to help a lot.
I also never complain about him working or me helping out. I offer many times as he is not really into asking but loves when I come out and help. I think he also loves the companionship.
The only complain Brian has is that he wanted MD to come help more so they could spend more time together.
I have pointed out things MD likes to help with or when MD is busy with something.
Alex Polikowsky
Alex Polikowsky
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Joyce Fetteroll
> He says they need to learn responsibility.At one time when people farmed to survive, by the time kids were adults, they knew their best option for surviving was farming. Of course some fled the farms and found other work, but the options were few and iffy.
Today, people have more options. By the time kids reach adulthood, they know they don't have to farm to survive. They have a world full of options. And if their childhoods on the farm feel like something they wish to escape from, they will.
At one time, if the goal was to raise farmers, it didn't matter as much whether kids enjoyed farming. It was a livelihood they learned the ins and outs of and it gave them a way to survive as adults.
Now a days, if the goal is to raise farmers, it matters a a great deal whether the kids enjoy their lives on the farm. If the kids don't have pleasant memories, they have a world full of options to choose from when they're old enough.
If, on the other hand, the goal is to raise kids who become responsible adults, radical unschoolers have found the "common wisdom" that kids "need to learn responsibility" by being made to do chores is not only unnecessary but often has the opposite effect.
What radical unschoolers have found to be true is that kids who are raised with choice, who are supported in their choices, accept the responsibilities -- the not as pleasant parts -- that go with the choices they're making. It's a natural part of life. The extra tasks they take on build slowly. As they get older, as they get more skilled which makes previous tasks easier, they naturally grow into doing more "set up" and "support" tasks to get what they want. Until, when they're living more independently, they're tackling filing tax returns, paying for rent before a new video game because it's part of finding ways to do what they enjoy.
The idea that people need to go through the motions of responsibility until it's so ingrained they won't choose not to, radical unschoolers find in practice is false when kids are given choice all along.
As adults, responsibilities are tasks we've *chosen* to do to have the life we want. At first that sounds wrong. We can't just stop taking out the trash, clothing the kids, going to work, feeding the cows. Those are all responsibilities. Things we have to do.
But if someone can mentally shift and realize that they are choosing to do those things because they don't want the consequences of not doing them, then they are choices. It's freeing to realize that. Every time you choose to mow the grass instead of letting it turn into a meadow, you're choosing to have a tended lawn. Every time you choose to tend the cows instead of selling them, you're choosing to have cows in your life. Every day you choose not to empty the bank account to take off for Fiji, you're choosing to spend that day with your family.
If, someone has grown up being made to do chores to "learn responsibility", what they really learn is that life is full of burdens, full of have tos and must dos. And the way to get through it is to stuff down your feelings and just do it. Then life is seen as full of unpleasant burdens that one must do. And when the goal is to just do what you must, it's harder to make thoughtful choices about what you want in your life.
From the outside, a kid being made to feed a cow looks the same as an adult choosing to feed a cow. On the inside the two look nothing alike. The adult is choosing to feed the cow because he wants a life with cows rather than some other life. The kid is being made to work for the life his parent wants to live. Chores kids are made to do are not responsibilities. Kids can't choose when, how or whether to do something that better suits the life they want as adults can. Chores forced on kids are conscripted labor that kids must do to the standards the adults set. If the internal good parts of that labor for the child don't outweigh the bad parts, there are two common outcomes: the child learns to shut down and do what they "have to" without question, feeling the burdens of life they can't escape from or they refuse to do them and they leave as soon as they can.
Kids leaving home as soon as they can to escape is so common most parents believe it's normal. It isn't. Kids leaving is normal. We're biologically wired to want to be able to "do it ourselves". There's a really good video about what drives people to do difficult tasks:
Drive (the full version -- Thank you, Claire :-)
http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_pink_on_motivation.html
What radical unschoolers have found is that kids who find home a comfortable nest where they were nurtured, don't stay forever. They do choose when they're ready to make their own lives, choosing the responsibilities *they* want in their lives. They willingly come back to touch base, to seek advice, but they grow up having learned responsibility without ever having been made.
That doesn't mean radical unschooled kids never help. They're *invited* to spend time with the parent as the parent does the tasks they've chosen to have in their lives. They're invited to help. Which means they can say no if they have more important (to them) things to do.
It helps to be aware when you're asking. It helps to see the tasks as yours that you're asking someone else to lend you a hand on.
What radical unschooling parents have found by 1) asking for help rather than requiring it, 2) thanking the child for setting aside their time and energy to help, 3) helping the child when asked, is that when the parents really do need help, the kids are very willing to help. (If kids have previously been made to do chores, it does take some healing time before they can feel they really do have a choice and this isn't some new tactic to get them to do their chores.)
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Chores forced on kids are conscripted labor that kids must do to the standards the adults set. If the internal good parts of that labor for the child don't outweigh the bad parts, there are two common outcomes: the child learns to shut down and do what they "have to" without question, feeling the burdens of life they can't escape from or they refuse to do them and they leave as soon as they can.-=-
And before they leave, many do a ton half-assed, resentful work that others have to re-do anyway, or the overseers yell and fight and insult them about it.
-=-What radical unschoolers have found is that kids who find home a comfortable nest where they were nurtured, don't stay forever. They do choose when they're ready to make their own lives, choosing the responsibilities *they* want in their lives. They willingly come back to touch base, to seek advice, but they grow up having learned responsibility without ever having been made.-=-
Pam and I still have some adult kids who are home; other families do too--and if we had farms, that could be fantastic! It's not bad as it is, but yes, it's seeming to be "normal" that young adults move away. But what a waste if they didn't really want to, and the parents could have used their assistance, or just still enjoy their company.
Housing isn't as inexpensive as it once was. The days of throwing a cabin together have long give way to a morrass of building codes and requirements for plumbers and electricians and earthquake- or flood- or whatever-proofing. There aren't as many jobs as there were in some other times and places. No everyone can buy a house nor SHOULD everyone buy a house.
-=-That doesn't mean radical unschooled kids never help. They're *invited* to spend time with the parent as the parent does the tasks they've chosen to have in their lives. They're invited to help. Which means they can say no if they have more important (to them) things to do.-=-
No guarantee they will. If the choice isn't real, it's something else to create resentent and insult. If someone has been made to work for fifteen years, he might not recover a natural desire to help in the next three or five.
With kids that old, there might just not be time for the family to develop the kinds of relationships longtime unschoolers have. And the unhappiness that could be created by that failure could be much worse for the relationships than what's happening now.
Sandra
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And before they leave, many do a ton half-assed, resentful work that others have to re-do anyway, or the overseers yell and fight and insult them about it.
-=-What radical unschoolers have found is that kids who find home a comfortable nest where they were nurtured, don't stay forever. They do choose when they're ready to make their own lives, choosing the responsibilities *they* want in their lives. They willingly come back to touch base, to seek advice, but they grow up having learned responsibility without ever having been made.-=-
Pam and I still have some adult kids who are home; other families do too--and if we had farms, that could be fantastic! It's not bad as it is, but yes, it's seeming to be "normal" that young adults move away. But what a waste if they didn't really want to, and the parents could have used their assistance, or just still enjoy their company.
Housing isn't as inexpensive as it once was. The days of throwing a cabin together have long give way to a morrass of building codes and requirements for plumbers and electricians and earthquake- or flood- or whatever-proofing. There aren't as many jobs as there were in some other times and places. No everyone can buy a house nor SHOULD everyone buy a house.
-=-That doesn't mean radical unschooled kids never help. They're *invited* to spend time with the parent as the parent does the tasks they've chosen to have in their lives. They're invited to help. Which means they can say no if they have more important (to them) things to do.-=-
No guarantee they will. If the choice isn't real, it's something else to create resentent and insult. If someone has been made to work for fifteen years, he might not recover a natural desire to help in the next three or five.
With kids that old, there might just not be time for the family to develop the kinds of relationships longtime unschoolers have. And the unhappiness that could be created by that failure could be much worse for the relationships than what's happening now.
Sandra
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Meredith
>> Mom wants to go all the way, dad does not and requires chores.Can they meet somewhere in the middle? If the parents can agree to look at the actual amount of work getting done, it may be possible to pare the chores back to a bare minimum and the time saved on arguing can go into getting things done.
But I suspect part of the problem has to do with ideas about how people learn - kids "need" to do chores to learn responsibility. That's harder to get around; the theoretical value of chores in dad's head is likely much bigger than their real value.
---Meredith
Miliana
If this helps any, my husband and I have a farm and do not require our children to help. When they voluntarily help we pay them for their time at the same rate as our adult employees. They offer to help from time to time for a variety of reasons (though they're young enough that the money doesn't seem to impact their decision to help or not). As they get older they seem more interested in helping.
My oldest daughter declined to help once, saying I got too grumpy with her the last time (which was true - being 5 at the time she just wasn't capable of doing what we both thought she could do and my reaction was not, er, particularly loving) and I admitted that and apologized and she has been more likely to volunteer and I've been more comfortable saying "no thank you" if it's something she can't handle yet.
Everyone's points about the history of farming, learning a reliable trade, etc, are perfectly valid. I would like to add, however, that the tradition of making one's children help without fiscal compensation has been one of the many things that mask the true cost of food in America. So many farming families make up the farm's economic loss by supplementing with outside income or reducing the loss by using unpaid labor, whether children or wwoofers. Who benefits from that unpaid labor? I would argue it's not the husband or the children or the farm but only the mistaken idea most people have that food is and should be cheap.
Aloha, Miliana
Sent from my iPhone; please excuse typos and auto corrections.
My oldest daughter declined to help once, saying I got too grumpy with her the last time (which was true - being 5 at the time she just wasn't capable of doing what we both thought she could do and my reaction was not, er, particularly loving) and I admitted that and apologized and she has been more likely to volunteer and I've been more comfortable saying "no thank you" if it's something she can't handle yet.
Everyone's points about the history of farming, learning a reliable trade, etc, are perfectly valid. I would like to add, however, that the tradition of making one's children help without fiscal compensation has been one of the many things that mask the true cost of food in America. So many farming families make up the farm's economic loss by supplementing with outside income or reducing the loss by using unpaid labor, whether children or wwoofers. Who benefits from that unpaid labor? I would argue it's not the husband or the children or the farm but only the mistaken idea most people have that food is and should be cheap.
Aloha, Miliana
Sent from my iPhone; please excuse typos and auto corrections.
Pam Sorooshian
On Sat, Feb 25, 2012 at 9:57 AM, Miliana <milianajohnson@...> wrote:
grocery store because I get a CSA delivery of produce every week and I buy
at farmer's markets and, in between, I buy organic at Whole Foods or
Sprouts. Friends and relatives often comment on how expensive it is to buy
locally grown organic food. But it seems well worth it to me and we don't
buy meat, so that is saving us a lot of money. And we started preparing
most food at home instead of eating out, so we save a lot that way, too.
And the price difference isn't that much - but still people comment a lot
on how they can't afford to eat organic local produce.
-pam
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> Who benefits from that unpaid labor? I would argue it's not the husband orTrue. I pay more these these days for food than I would at a regular
> the children or the farm but only the mistaken idea most people have that
> food is and should be cheap.
grocery store because I get a CSA delivery of produce every week and I buy
at farmer's markets and, in between, I buy organic at Whole Foods or
Sprouts. Friends and relatives often comment on how expensive it is to buy
locally grown organic food. But it seems well worth it to me and we don't
buy meat, so that is saving us a lot of money. And we started preparing
most food at home instead of eating out, so we save a lot that way, too.
And the price difference isn't that much - but still people comment a lot
on how they can't afford to eat organic local produce.
-pam
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