Sam

Hello,

I have 2 little girls, ages 2 and 5. We have been aiming towards an unschooling lifestyle (and reading this list) for just over a year now. I attachment parented my first daughter from being a baby, but had a few limits and controls (re sleep and tv) in place until I discovered unschooling and it made so much sense. Since then I have been working on dropping controls and limits and trying to stay present and in the moment with my 2 girls.It's been like peeling away the layers of an onion and I have learnt so much about myself. I am si glad I have got on this journey and I know we are going in the right direction, but have met a few stumbling blocks I have so far not been able to get over.
I am home with the girls full time and we have full, busy, mostly happy days. I try and spend every minute with them, and also do things on my own with each of them to fill their cups as much as poss.They sleep eat and play as much as they want to. My husband works a lot and gets very tired but when he is home tries to play with as much as he can while I tidy up, etc.

My older daughter (5)is rough with her little sister. She will often lash out at her or roar at her (very frighteningly to the little one) if she comes near (and Jazzy (5) thinks she is trying to take her toys but she isnt she's just walking past.) She has a quick temper and can flare up very quickly at any of us, quick to call us stupid or shut up and go away, or she will hit me or her dad.
Having a new sister was so hard for her, she really struggled at first, so did I. She is obviously still jealous/angry. What I want to know is what I can do to help the situation. This is what I do right now: I stay with them almost every second of the day, explaining, helping and preventing things from escalating. This mostly works. I try and give her as much love and attention as I can (which she loves and it really helps) telling her how i love her, cuddles, snuggles. We cosleep. We follow all her interests and do lots of fun things, go to lots of fun places and play lots of imagination/role play games.We also stay home/snuggle/watch films/play games/bake/craft/chill etc.This all started for her the moment my attention was not 100% on her. I think maybe I validated her feelings of anger towards her sister too much initially? recently I have realised (through reading Sandra's posts!) that I wasn't being firm/clear enough. Now, when she lashes out I try and be firm, obviously it varies but something like "no, I will not let you hurt Ayla, we all need to feel safe in our home" and then tell her what she can do instead (ask her for the toy etc) We regularly talk about our home being our safe place where we all need to feel safe and happy and not hurt each other. Even the 2 year old is copying her now with the hitting/name calling, which obviously has it's own set of problems. The older one also sometimes lashes out when we are out playing with friends if she gets overexcited/stimulated. She is regularly mean to my friends 2 year old,(her best friends little brother who is always trying to join in their games) and I tell her every time (before we play) it is not acceptable and she must not do it (because it hurts his feelings/he needs to feel safe, and that is jeopardises our friendships etc). She IS getting better with this and is really trying. But with her sister I really feel like I'm failing right now. It's not getting better that's why I'm here.

The next problem is "stuff". She loves buying stuff, so we find ways to do this. There used to be mad jealousy if one child got something the other didn't so we tried to make sure there was one each (toys etc) But now that's not enough. If Jazzy (5) chooses a toy I buy one for Ayla too, then she wants Aylas. Also if they get something different she always wants her little sisters so bad she can't cope with not having it. She gets hysterical and says "I have to get it Mummy, I have to!" If I don't let her have it she has started to sometimes take it in secret. At the mo, the little one doesn't mostly notice...so I mostly let her have everything (she gets so upset, so we find a way for her to have it and Ayla not notice)...what shall I do? Is that ok? If there's any way to get her one/2/another one I do, but sometimes it's not possible. (they like these "surprise" dino eggs at the moment that you don't know whats inside, they sell them at all the places we regularly go and Jazz loves them. (hard to avoid)Ayla notices and wants them too now, but of course they don't have the same ones in and I can't control which ones they get! Or if relatives give a gift and it's diff for each girl aargh.)

What I want to know is your thoughts, please, on how to handle the hitting/name calling and what to do about the older one wanting the younger ones stuff. They shared a toy room, but Jazz (5) wanted her own space so now she has her own room and is VERY protective and territorial about her stuff. She obviously feels invaded by the little one, so we try our best to respect that and keep her away from her/her stuff.
Just have to add they do get on very well some of the time, cuddle, love each other etc. It's only sometimes (usually if I get distracted by another person/go to the loo etc) But it does happen when I'm fully engaged with them too. Is there any way I can help her not to lash out at her sister? Or will it get easier as she gets older and I just have to keep saying/doing the same stuff? Do I just haver to keep calm and keep being peaceful for them?

Sorry it's so long winded, just wanted to give a clear picture. Thank you if you've got this far, and for any advice you have to offer.

Sam (UK)

kristi_beguin

>>> Having a new sister was so hard for her, she really struggled at first, so did I. She is obviously still jealous/angry.<<<

It's been two years since your youngest was born. Children are flexible and not apt to harbor feelings (like grudges or jealousy) in the same way that adults do. Instead of thinking that your oldest daughter is still jealous and angry, it might be more helpful to find ways to help your oldest daughter have her own space and possibly several places that are out of reach from her younger sister.

>>>The next problem is "stuff".<<<

My youngest is 6. Just before she turned 5 she discovered shopping; and gifts. She recently went through a peak of *needing* almost everything in the store. Most times, what she needed was food, possibly more time to browse and make a decision, sometimes she just really wanted to touch, feel, and hold the toys in order to decide whether she really wanted it. This required time on my part. I realized that instead of expecting her to pick out a toy in a quick amount of time, it was better if I allotted a substantial amount of time in the store with toys so that she, as well as her sister, could really pick out what was wanted rather than being rushed to do so. This shift in my thinking was probably the most amazing thing that happened to her *need* to have everything in the store. If we weren't rushed, and they could pick and choose, they chose thoughtfully, and really enjoyed their new toy (or clothes, or towels, or toothbrushes…). As she gets older, her ability to pick out what she wants has changed as well. It doesn't take as much time, and she has a better understanding of cost and different kinds of value.

>>>but Jazz (5) wanted her own space so now she has her own room and is VERY protective and territorial about her stuff. She obviously feels invaded by the little one, so we try our best to respect that and keep her away from her/her stuff.<<<

I suggest making a very concerted effort to ensure that your oldest daughter's space is protected, and that if she has special things that require extra protection, that they have a safe spot where her sister can't get into them.

>>>Or will it get easier as she gets older and I just have to keep saying/doing the same stuff?<<<

If you are consistently calm while dealing with their squabbles, they will learn to be calm in the midst of a conflict. And it does get easier. As they get older and more mature, they will have a greater understanding of eachother and how to communicate better.

sheeboo2

---It's been two years since your youngest was born. Children are flexible and not
apt to harbor feelings (like grudges or jealousy) in the same way that adults do.----

I think all of the suggestions you offered were wonderful and helpful, but this made me wince. Perhaps *your* child isn't flexible and not apt to hold onto emotions, but not all children are like that, and I've seen the idea that, "Kids are adaptable; she'll get over it" used to justify all kinds of actions by adults, which effect children, that range from thoughtless to downright horrific.

The sentiment that children are naturally flexible or adaptable in ways that adults aren't invalidates children's very real, very strong, very valid emotions. By believing their feelings are somehow more transient, less-lasting than an adult's all kinds of things become okay when they wouldn't otherwise be.

In my own life, I can vouch for the permanence of emotion from young children. My brother and husband both, still, to this day, carry emotional wounds-grudges that were the result of things that happened to them as very young children.

Jealousy can continue through a child's life. It doesn't go away because the novelty of a sibling wears off. Our friends with a 3.5yo and 18mo twins were recently here. Their daughter still breaks down with intense jealousy and feelings of rejection and displacement. Heck, I know grown women and men who are still jealous of what they perceive to be their siblings getting more/better attention from their parents.

Brie

sheeboo2

---Perhaps *your* child isn't flexible--- whoops. I meant: "Perhaps your child IS flexible."

Brie

kristi_beguin

>>>I've seen the idea that, "Kids are adaptable; she'll get over it" used to justify all kinds of actions by adults, which effect children, that range from thoughtless to downright horrific.<<<

Yikes! Definitely not what I intended.

My suggestions geared towards not framing the situation permanently, but trying to help the older one to have her own space. Indeed, if the older daughter is truly still jealous and angry, it will be harmful to gloss over those feelings. Better to continue to acknowledge those feelings and find ways to help her understand and express them.

Posting while cooking, not necessarily the best combination.

Joyce Fetteroll

On Feb 22, 2012, at 11:16 PM, sheeboo2 wrote:

> The sentiment that children are naturally flexible or adaptable
> in ways that adults aren't invalidates children's very real,
> very strong, very valid emotions.

I think what looks like flexible and adaptable is an overriding need for parents, for their emotional and physical support. So, biologically, they need to stuff down the damage to get what they need even more.

If the damage is small and the rest is great, it heals. If the damage is ongoing and the rest is more in name than in deed, it will cause huge damage that they carry into adulthood. Most parents are somewhere in between on that spectrum, unfortunately doing damage they don't even realize. Like with chores.

Joyce




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=-It's been two years since your youngest was born. Children are flexible and not apt to harbor feelings (like grudges or jealousy) in the same way that adults do. Instead of thinking that your oldest daughter is still jealous and angry, it might be more helpful to find ways to help your oldest daughter have her own space and possibly several places that are out of reach from her younger sister. -=-

I agree with the last part of that, definitely, but the first part doesn't seem right. I was three when my sister was born, and I was still unhappy about it two years later. Every morning I was reminded that the one who used to be MY mom was now HER mom, and my new role in the family was to hear be quiet, leave her alone, stop that, go do something else, I can't wait for you to be old enough to go to school. And school did save me from that. My first grade teacher liked me, and was nice to me, and said "Yes you can" a LOT.

"Children are flexible" can be used to cover many sins. I used to think it was okay that my mom was spanking my half-brother (who was born when I was 19), because he wouldn't remember it when he was older. Children aren't flexible enough to make it okay for parents to dismiss their sorrow.

-=-If you are consistently calm while dealing with their squabbles, they will learn to be calm in the midst of a conflict. And it does get easier. As they get older and more mature, they will have a greater understanding of each other and how to communicate better. -=-

It does get easier, but instead of thinking of their disagreements as "squabbles," it would be extremely helpful for the mom to try to see what happened two or three moves before it could be called "a squabble" (which is a dismissive term for someone's sorrow, too).

My mom did the thing about identical toys. It's not at all a good memory. There would be four of the same thing in the house. Sometimes one of the younger girls would break mine, and still have hers. That was irritating.

One thing I did when my kids were little was have some toys that were mine. I could let a kid play with it, but when he was being too rough, I'd find him something else to do and take it back, saying I didn't want it broken. The toys that were mine (the set of Ninja Turtle troll dolls was mine, because all the kids wanted them and I couldn't afford three sets) were taken care of well, and eventually became the property of the kid who most liked them, after a couple of years when there was no newness or danger to them.

Buying each child the same thing isn't the road toward them wanting to share, from my experience in the buy-four-of-them house (my parents took in two cousins, one older than me when I was seven, and one between my age and my sister's when I was eight), I know it's divisive and still something to fight about.

Sandra




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

rainbow mountains

I'm sorry it's been so long! I just wanted to say thank you to all who took the time to read my post and reply. It's been so busy here (as usual!) I havn't had time to say thank you 'til now.
It all helped and means a lot,  things have become a lot brighter in our family in the last few days. There is still squabbling and jealously with the girls, but we are a lot more "there" and have a lot more positivity and peace to deal with it better, and more understanding as to why it's happening and why it's ok. Thank you.
 
Sam :)


________________________________
From: Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, 23 February 2012, 11:40
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Looking for advice with my girls.



 


On Feb 22, 2012, at 11:16 PM, sheeboo2 wrote:

> The sentiment that children are naturally flexible or adaptable
> in ways that adults aren't invalidates children's very real,
> very strong, very valid emotions.

I think what looks like flexible and adaptable is an overriding need for parents, for their emotional and physical support. So, biologically, they need to stuff down the damage to get what they need even more.

If the damage is small and the rest is great, it heals. If the damage is ongoing and the rest is more in name than in deed, it will cause huge damage that they carry into adulthood. Most parents are somewhere in between on that spectrum, unfortunately doing damage they don't even realize. Like with chores.

Joyce

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sandra Dodd

-=- things have become a lot brighter in our family in the last few days. There is still squabbling and jealously with the girls, but we are a lot more "there" and have a lot more positivity and peace to deal with it better, and more understanding as to why it's happening and why it's ok. Thank you.-=-

Starting toward this kind of peaceful parenting is like starting down in a hole. There are rumors that it's brighter over the hill, but other people are trying to keep you in the hole with them, in the hole where you've always been.

Each time you learn a little more about how see your children where they are and be their partner, your perspective changes. Soon you're not so far down in the hole. And eventually you might be way up on the hill where you can see all directions and can't even remember how you survived in the hole.

I'm going to quote two radical unschoolers from a discussion elsewhere:

***It is funny that once you decide to create a more peaceful, loving,
connected and joyful relationship and you stop complaining and bitching and
you pay attention to the good and what really matters, how little it takes
to achieve that.***

+++++Another funny thing (or is it the same?) is that it's starting to become
hard for me to remember how I used to think and act - I feel as if this new
way is slowly becoming MY way of being, interacting, thinking, and that is
really awesome. I've already said this on the Radical Unschooling Info page
on Facebook, but not even 5 years of therapy did this for me! (although it
did open some doors, surely)++++++

Sandra

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]