radically unschooling?
Lisa Breger
Hi,
I sat down to watch Frontier House on PBS last night with two of my children, expecting to peek into the past and at the realities of life for homesteaders in the 1880s. The show turned out to be more about the difficulties involved for modern females trying to cope without make-up and shampoo on the frontier. Really. I don't know why the Malibu, California family signed up for the experience when the two fifteen year old teenagers and the mom were so obviously upset about their appearance sans make-up and blow-dryer. But anyway, I was surprised to find so many posts to our local homeschool support group list about how disappointing the show was. Many decided against allowing their children to view the show due to the lack of educational value.
Previously I would have also been disappointed at the lack of historical information to be found in this show. But without even trying, I discovered I found value in the show, because it provided an opportunity for at least three members of my family to spend enjoyable time together. We had a lot to comment on anyway, such as the values these girls had learned, teamwork, snow in June, and more. But even if there were no comments, and only enjoyable time together as a family, that would have been enough for me.
When I first made the big switch to unschooling two months ago, I put away all the school texts and workbooks, but I pulled out the other stuff: Family Math, Math for Smartypants, books of science experiments, computer games, etc.. We've rented lots of movies, spent time playing Monopoly and Yahtzee. But the movies were The Ten Commandments and Cleopatra, and the games are obviously math oriented. I thought replacing the boring stuff with the more fun stuff, in addition to giving choices and opportunities to say no, would mean I was unschooling, agenda or not.
My reactions to the educational value of show last night made clear to me my philosophy of unschooling is changing. These are my new thoughts: I can have absolutely no agenda, not even think about anything academic at all, but just remain supportive and participatory in my kids' lives by doing things for no other reason than to have fun.
But now I'm doubting my judgment. Am I radically unschooling, or being neglectful?
Thanks for answering even though it may be the millionth time you've had to!
Lisa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lisa Breger
lisa@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I sat down to watch Frontier House on PBS last night with two of my children, expecting to peek into the past and at the realities of life for homesteaders in the 1880s. The show turned out to be more about the difficulties involved for modern females trying to cope without make-up and shampoo on the frontier. Really. I don't know why the Malibu, California family signed up for the experience when the two fifteen year old teenagers and the mom were so obviously upset about their appearance sans make-up and blow-dryer. But anyway, I was surprised to find so many posts to our local homeschool support group list about how disappointing the show was. Many decided against allowing their children to view the show due to the lack of educational value.
Previously I would have also been disappointed at the lack of historical information to be found in this show. But without even trying, I discovered I found value in the show, because it provided an opportunity for at least three members of my family to spend enjoyable time together. We had a lot to comment on anyway, such as the values these girls had learned, teamwork, snow in June, and more. But even if there were no comments, and only enjoyable time together as a family, that would have been enough for me.
When I first made the big switch to unschooling two months ago, I put away all the school texts and workbooks, but I pulled out the other stuff: Family Math, Math for Smartypants, books of science experiments, computer games, etc.. We've rented lots of movies, spent time playing Monopoly and Yahtzee. But the movies were The Ten Commandments and Cleopatra, and the games are obviously math oriented. I thought replacing the boring stuff with the more fun stuff, in addition to giving choices and opportunities to say no, would mean I was unschooling, agenda or not.
My reactions to the educational value of show last night made clear to me my philosophy of unschooling is changing. These are my new thoughts: I can have absolutely no agenda, not even think about anything academic at all, but just remain supportive and participatory in my kids' lives by doing things for no other reason than to have fun.
But now I'm doubting my judgment. Am I radically unschooling, or being neglectful?
Thanks for answering even though it may be the millionth time you've had to!
Lisa
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lisa Breger
lisa@...
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
----------
From: "Lisa Breger" <lisa@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] radically unschooling?
Date: Tue, Apr 30, 2002, 6:15 PM
My reactions to the educational value of show last night made clear to me my
philosophy of unschooling is changing. These are my new thoughts: I can
have absolutely no agenda, not even think about anything academic at all,
but just remain supportive and participatory in my kids' lives by doing
things for no other reason than to have fun.
But now I'm doubting my judgment. Am I radically unschooling, or being
neglectful?
----------
Well, I don't see much harm in thinking, "Isn't that interesting how much
math she's picking up from Yahtzee."
The harm comes when you think, "She's not doing enough math. Tonight I'll
try to get her to play Yahtzee."
It's a matter of motives and intent.
And there will be plenty of things that appear to have no redeeming
academic, social or other value that your kids will want to do. "Appear" is
important in that statement, because some or many or most things they do,
including watching whiny people on 1900 house, may very well be valuable to
them in ways that neither you or they will fathom for days, months, or
decades.
What interests them is what they need at any given time. If you are taking
note of their interests, and doing your best to encourage and assist in
them, and keeping an eye out for other things that your experience with your
kids has told you might ALSO be interesting to them, you're radically
unschooling. Neglect would be cheaper and more restful. <g>
Pam, getting ready to sell off her freckles to finance Brit's art schedule
for the summer. ;)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: "Lisa Breger" <lisa@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] radically unschooling?
Date: Tue, Apr 30, 2002, 6:15 PM
My reactions to the educational value of show last night made clear to me my
philosophy of unschooling is changing. These are my new thoughts: I can
have absolutely no agenda, not even think about anything academic at all,
but just remain supportive and participatory in my kids' lives by doing
things for no other reason than to have fun.
But now I'm doubting my judgment. Am I radically unschooling, or being
neglectful?
----------
Well, I don't see much harm in thinking, "Isn't that interesting how much
math she's picking up from Yahtzee."
The harm comes when you think, "She's not doing enough math. Tonight I'll
try to get her to play Yahtzee."
It's a matter of motives and intent.
And there will be plenty of things that appear to have no redeeming
academic, social or other value that your kids will want to do. "Appear" is
important in that statement, because some or many or most things they do,
including watching whiny people on 1900 house, may very well be valuable to
them in ways that neither you or they will fathom for days, months, or
decades.
What interests them is what they need at any given time. If you are taking
note of their interests, and doing your best to encourage and assist in
them, and keeping an eye out for other things that your experience with your
kids has told you might ALSO be interesting to them, you're radically
unschooling. Neglect would be cheaper and more restful. <g>
Pam, getting ready to sell off her freckles to finance Brit's art schedule
for the summer. ;)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa Breger
>>>The harm comes when you think, "She's not doing enough math. Tonight I'lltry to get her to play Yahtzee.">>>
My thoughts are usually something to this effect: "Oh, they want to play Yahtzee. That's good, it involves math." I'm wondering if it is too radical and even neglectful to move towards, "Oh, they want to play Yahtzee. That's good."
>>>because some or many or most things they do, including watching whiny people on 1900 house, may very well be valuable tothem in ways that neither you or they will fathom for days, months, or decades.>>>
Is it neglectful to not even fathom, or worry or care about, if/when it will be valuable to them ever? Can I just not think about it at all, and trust that in a loving, caring, trusting, respectful, supportive, fun family, without any attention to how what they are learning is measuring up, the kids will learn what they need to learn?
>>>If you are taking note of their interests, and doing your best to encourage and assist inthem, and keeping an eye out for other things that your experience with your
kids has told you might ALSO be interesting to them, you're radically
unschooling.>>>
I am!
Pam, I contacted you through tve a couple of months ago, and it is still my intention to meet you at the park one day, as soon as my oldest daughter recovers from this insane illness.
Lisa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/30/02 7:31:01 PM, lisa@... writes:
<< But the movies were The Ten Commandments and Cleopatra >>
Instead of backing away from obviously historical movies, though, maybe go
even further into them, while trying to forget the "value," and pretty soon
it can be a fun genre all on its own. My favorites:
El Cid
Spartacus
Ben Hur
Wallow in that stuff!!
All KINDS of parts and connections will stick, and you don't have to assist
other than just provide the soup pot, water and ingredients. It can simmer
for years.
Sandra
<< But the movies were The Ten Commandments and Cleopatra >>
Instead of backing away from obviously historical movies, though, maybe go
even further into them, while trying to forget the "value," and pretty soon
it can be a fun genre all on its own. My favorites:
El Cid
Spartacus
Ben Hur
Wallow in that stuff!!
All KINDS of parts and connections will stick, and you don't have to assist
other than just provide the soup pot, water and ingredients. It can simmer
for years.
Sandra
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/30/02 9:01:34 PM, lisa@... writes:
<< Is it neglectful to not even fathom, or worry or care about, if/when it
will be valuable to them ever? >>
No. You're only responsible to consider learning for six hours times 180
days per year. The rest of the time they can "just waste." <Bwg>
<<Can I just not think about it at all >>
More and more as time goes one you won't think of it so consciously.
Sandra
<< Is it neglectful to not even fathom, or worry or care about, if/when it
will be valuable to them ever? >>
No. You're only responsible to consider learning for six hours times 180
days per year. The rest of the time they can "just waste." <Bwg>
<<Can I just not think about it at all >>
More and more as time goes one you won't think of it so consciously.
Sandra
Karen
These are my new thoughts: I can have absolutely no agenda, not even think
about anything academic at all, but just remain supportive and participatory
in my kids' lives by doing things for no other reason than to have
fun. --Lisa
By George, I think you've got it! <bg>
Now that you mention it, Frontier House *hasn't* been educational, in the
Abeka sense of the word. And I'll bet there *are* hsing moms who will turn
it off because it's showing real people, warts and all. Even married people
who might want to get it on once in five months. Darn it, where's Pa Ingalls
when you need him?
Still, neglectful mom that I am, I've slouched in front of the tube with
both kids last night and tonight. Here's what we've talked about (not
learned, since it's not, you know, educational...)
Families come in different sizes and colors. They express their feelings
differently than we do. Not everyone who argues gets a divorce (although
jury's out on this one so far...)
Priorities differ greatly among families. How would ours be different?
What would be the thing you'd miss most about your life right now? What one
thing would you take with you? (No, Nintendo does not count as one thing.)
One person says she's a Christian and wants to act like one. Does she really
act like she says she will?
"It's morally right even if it's against the law." Do you agree? When might
it be correct? Is it correct in this instance?
How did Gordon's opinion of his health change after the doctor saw him and
said he was OK? Why did he think he was sick?
Who was Catherine Howard and why were they talking about her before the
chicken was killed?
I could go on and on, but we generally didn't talk about life on the
prairie. IMO, it's not about that; it's about adapting to change, and
psychological isolation, and expectations vs. reality. If they want to see
frontier life, I'll rent The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.
My kids did learn a lot tonight, but don't tell them that. There's still one
night to go!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
about anything academic at all, but just remain supportive and participatory
in my kids' lives by doing things for no other reason than to have
fun. --Lisa
By George, I think you've got it! <bg>
Now that you mention it, Frontier House *hasn't* been educational, in the
Abeka sense of the word. And I'll bet there *are* hsing moms who will turn
it off because it's showing real people, warts and all. Even married people
who might want to get it on once in five months. Darn it, where's Pa Ingalls
when you need him?
Still, neglectful mom that I am, I've slouched in front of the tube with
both kids last night and tonight. Here's what we've talked about (not
learned, since it's not, you know, educational...)
Families come in different sizes and colors. They express their feelings
differently than we do. Not everyone who argues gets a divorce (although
jury's out on this one so far...)
Priorities differ greatly among families. How would ours be different?
What would be the thing you'd miss most about your life right now? What one
thing would you take with you? (No, Nintendo does not count as one thing.)
One person says she's a Christian and wants to act like one. Does she really
act like she says she will?
"It's morally right even if it's against the law." Do you agree? When might
it be correct? Is it correct in this instance?
How did Gordon's opinion of his health change after the doctor saw him and
said he was OK? Why did he think he was sick?
Who was Catherine Howard and why were they talking about her before the
chicken was killed?
I could go on and on, but we generally didn't talk about life on the
prairie. IMO, it's not about that; it's about adapting to change, and
psychological isolation, and expectations vs. reality. If they want to see
frontier life, I'll rent The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.
My kids did learn a lot tonight, but don't tell them that. There's still one
night to go!
Karen
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Hartley
----------
From: "Lisa Breger" <lisa@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] radically unschooling?
Date: Tue, Apr 30, 2002, 7:50 PM
Is it neglectful to not even fathom, or worry or care about, if/when it will
be valuable to them ever?
----------
Nope.
----------
Can I just not think about it at all, and trust that in a loving, caring,
trusting, respectful, supportive, fun family, without any attention to how
what they are learning is measuring up, the kids will learn what they need
to learn?
----------
Yep.
That's a pretty decent definition of unschooling you have there. Put that on
the refrigerator.
:)
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From: "Lisa Breger" <lisa@...>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] radically unschooling?
Date: Tue, Apr 30, 2002, 7:50 PM
Is it neglectful to not even fathom, or worry or care about, if/when it will
be valuable to them ever?
----------
Nope.
----------
Can I just not think about it at all, and trust that in a loving, caring,
trusting, respectful, supportive, fun family, without any attention to how
what they are learning is measuring up, the kids will learn what they need
to learn?
----------
Yep.
That's a pretty decent definition of unschooling you have there. Put that on
the refrigerator.
:)
Pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
On Wed, 1 May 2002 00:36:02 -0500 "Karen" <kbmatlock@...> writes:
either. :-) Cacie and I both think that what we'd miss most is reading.
We figured we'd probably have almost nothing to read, at least nothing
modern... probably no comic books at all. And no email. I'll bet each of
us spend 2 or 3 hours in an average day reading something or other, and
there's no way we could bring enough books for 6 months in that wagon.
It wasn't an obvious answer, but I think it's true for both of us.
We also talked a lot about how annoying certain people on the show
were...
Dar
> What would be the thing you'd miss most about your life right now?We talked about this. The library apparently doesn't count as one thing
> What one
> thing would you take with you? (No, Nintendo does not count as one
> thing.)
either. :-) Cacie and I both think that what we'd miss most is reading.
We figured we'd probably have almost nothing to read, at least nothing
modern... probably no comic books at all. And no email. I'll bet each of
us spend 2 or 3 hours in an average day reading something or other, and
there's no way we could bring enough books for 6 months in that wagon.
It wasn't an obvious answer, but I think it's true for both of us.
We also talked a lot about how annoying certain people on the show
were...
Dar
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/1/02 12:36:02 AM, kbmatlock@... writes:
<< If they want to see
frontier life, I'll rent The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.
really didn't know anything about free ranging at all. We got to talking
about other movies set in this time. In addition to the above, any
suggestions?
Paula
<< If they want to see
frontier life, I'll rent The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.
>>We're loving watching this for all of the issues it's bringing up - FI, I
really didn't know anything about free ranging at all. We got to talking
about other movies set in this time. In addition to the above, any
suggestions?
Paula
Lisa Breger
If life can be this good, I am awestruck that anyone would choose school, in any sense of the word. We formerly schooled at home in a very structured way, and I thought we were doing well because at least we were together, but now we are together AND happy! I am so grateful I discovered this way of living!
Lisa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
Well, I threw that out there off the top of my head since we just saw it
again last week. It's really about town life in the 1800's, and the battle
over statehood. John Wayne does a great John Wayne impression; he has all
the mannerisms that people use to mimic him and it looks almost like a
parody of himself! (Yes, he really did say "pilgrim.")
Others? Last of the Mohicans. Jeremiah Johnson. Sarah, Plain and Tall and
its sequels. For realistic, frontier survival: Heartland, with Rip Torn and
Conchata Ferrell. That one is tough to watch but will stick with you. Bring
Kleenex.
Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: sjogy@... [mailto:sjogy@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 8:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] radically unschooling?
In a message dated 5/1/02 12:36:02 AM, kbmatlock@... writes:
<< If they want to see
frontier life, I'll rent The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.
really didn't know anything about free ranging at all. We got to talking
about other movies set in this time. In addition to the above, any
suggestions?
Paula
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
again last week. It's really about town life in the 1800's, and the battle
over statehood. John Wayne does a great John Wayne impression; he has all
the mannerisms that people use to mimic him and it looks almost like a
parody of himself! (Yes, he really did say "pilgrim.")
Others? Last of the Mohicans. Jeremiah Johnson. Sarah, Plain and Tall and
its sequels. For realistic, frontier survival: Heartland, with Rip Torn and
Conchata Ferrell. That one is tough to watch but will stick with you. Bring
Kleenex.
Karen
-----Original Message-----
From: sjogy@... [mailto:sjogy@...]
Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 8:24 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] radically unschooling?
In a message dated 5/1/02 12:36:02 AM, kbmatlock@... writes:
<< If they want to see
frontier life, I'll rent The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.
>>We're loving watching this for all of the issues it's bringing up - FI, I
really didn't know anything about free ranging at all. We got to talking
about other movies set in this time. In addition to the above, any
suggestions?
Paula
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
ADVERTISEMENT
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[email protected]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
zenmomma *
>>These are my new thoughts: I can have absolutely no agenda, not evenThis is great! And as part of beiing supportive and participatory, you can
>>think about anything academic at all, but just remain supportive and
>>participatory in my kids' lives by doing things for no other reason than
>>to have fun.>>
join the kids in their activities and invite them to join in yours. Fill
your lives with lots of interesting opportunities. Things to look at, stuff
to touch and play with, books to read, games to play, places to go, people
to experience. You're right, it's not about being "academic", it's about
experiencing our world and ALL it has to offer. :o)
Life is good.
~Mary
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[email protected]
<<My thoughts are usually something to this effect: "Oh, they want to
play Yahtzee. That's good, it involves math." I'm wondering if it is
too radical and even neglectful to move towards, "Oh, they want to play
Yahtzee. That's good.">>
I would take it even another step and say, "Will I be disappointed if
they ask me to do the adding for them?" Does the activity have value
regardless of how much "learning" they "seem" to be doing?
I realize that when we play Yahtzee it's simply to play Yahtzee. I've
loved the game since I was a little kid. Sometimes my daughter does her
own math, sometimes she asks for help and sometimes she asks me to do the
adding for her. I've never thought about it as a "math opportunity".
Perhaps unschooling has become part of my blood. Woohoo!
Kris
________________________________________________________________
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play Yahtzee. That's good, it involves math." I'm wondering if it is
too radical and even neglectful to move towards, "Oh, they want to play
Yahtzee. That's good.">>
I would take it even another step and say, "Will I be disappointed if
they ask me to do the adding for them?" Does the activity have value
regardless of how much "learning" they "seem" to be doing?
I realize that when we play Yahtzee it's simply to play Yahtzee. I've
loved the game since I was a little kid. Sometimes my daughter does her
own math, sometimes she asks for help and sometimes she asks me to do the
adding for her. I've never thought about it as a "math opportunity".
Perhaps unschooling has become part of my blood. Woohoo!
Kris
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
[email protected]
In a message dated 5/5/02 11:41:28 AM, louisam1@... writes:
<< I would take it even another step and say, "Will I be disappointed if
they ask me to do the adding for them?" >>
Holly cried the other night when I didn't let her add up my Five Crowns
score. So we let her join the game partway through and from there on she
added hers AND mine.
But I never mind spelling for her or reading for her. She's just quick with
math, and not quite as sparkly with reading and writing yet.
Sandra
<< I would take it even another step and say, "Will I be disappointed if
they ask me to do the adding for them?" >>
Holly cried the other night when I didn't let her add up my Five Crowns
score. So we let her join the game partway through and from there on she
added hers AND mine.
But I never mind spelling for her or reading for her. She's just quick with
math, and not quite as sparkly with reading and writing yet.
Sandra