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In a message dated 4/30/02 1:17:51 PM, cen46624@... writes:

<< This reminds me of my parents who said I couldn't take ballet (after
*years* of
wanting to) because I'd never be a professional ballerina. SO?!

:-) Diane

> >>If I were going to teach music, I wouldn't want to keep a student and take
> >>money if it really looked like he didn't have the physical coordination or
> >>the ear or the rhythmic sense to tell one style of music from another.>>
>>

But it's not the same. At least your were moving, and upright at the right
times, right? I never said I wouldn't want to keep a student who wouldn't
become a professional. Music can be a joy all in and of itself. But if the
student isn't GETTING any music, there is none going in and none coming out,
the time and money might be better used otherwise.

Maybe anyone who keeps at unschooling CAN get it.

But before they can keep at it they have to get to it.

Sandra

schuyler_waynforth

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> But it's not the same. At least your were moving, and upright at
the right
> times, right? I never said I wouldn't want to keep a student who
wouldn't
> become a professional. Music can be a joy all in and of itself.
But if the
> student isn't GETTING any music, there is none going in and none
coming out,
> the time and money might be better used otherwise.
>
> Maybe anyone who keeps at unschooling CAN get it.
>
> But before they can keep at it they have to get to it.
>
> Sandra

How accountable are you for other people unschooling successfully?
I love the Vidal Sassoon tagline "If you don't look good we don't
look good." It implies that even if you aren't using Vidal Sassoon
products they are still to be held accountable (due to unsuccessful
marketing of their product, presumably) for your attractiveness or
lack thereof. As an unschooler who speaks out about the joys of
unschooling are you responsible for everyone who considers
unschooling? Is it possible to lead a horse to unschooling? Is it
possible to force said horse to drink even if they found the
unschooling on their own? And is Vidal Sassoon really who I should
be taking to task for my bad hair days?

Schuyler

BTW just thought I'd add a brief intro:
Mother of Simon, 5, and Linnaea, 2. Living in Albuquerque, NM and
wishing I had a really nice shady backyard so that I didn't have to
keep slathering myself and my kids in sunscreen before opening the
backdoor.

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/30/02 2:35:43 PM, dwaynf@... writes:

<< How accountable are you for other people unschooling successfully? >>

It's not really their ultimate success I'm worried about so much as I'm
concerned with my own integrity. If I make a promise that can't be kept, or
an offer that can't be made good, then there is a morals problem.

<<As an unschooler who speaks out about the joys of
unschooling are you responsible for everyone who considers
unschooling? >>

I'm responsible for the information I give those who get in range or who ask
me personally and directly.

<< Is it possible to lead a horse to unschooling?>>

If you advertise "WATER" in a way horses can understand, it needs to be
useable water in a form they can access.

Sandra

schuyler_waynforth

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/30/02 2:35:43 PM, dwaynf@u... writes:
>
> << Is it possible to lead a horse to unschooling?>>
>
> If you advertise "WATER" in a way horses can understand, it needs
to be
> useable water in a form they can access.


I suppose in the end (I know I am flogging that poor horse metaphor)
if the horse is thirsty enough and the water potable he/she will
drink. The real question, I suppose is whether he/she will notice
the oily sheen on the top of the water refracting the light into
rainbows, or the bugs walking ever so delicately on the surface
tension,, or the little plant growing just under the place where the
water has managed to rust through and slowly drips out, or the way
the welding was done on the trough, or how if his/her nose is under
the water when he/she exhales bubbles are made, or the bird flying
overhead and the cool way its poop drifts down, faster than it looks
like it should, but still responding to the wind.

The problem with unschooling is that it isn't a means to an end. If
you unschool you aren't doing it so that your children will read and
write. You aren't doing it so that they will eventually learn to
turn off the television on their own. You are doing it because the
process is more important than the end. Or because unschooling is
the end and the beginning and the whole shebang.

And I don't know how it is possible to prevent people from believing
that unschooling is a means to an end.

Schuyler

[email protected]

Very cool, by Schuyler:

<< The real question, I suppose is whether he/she will notice
the oily sheen on the top of the water refracting the light into
rainbows, or the bugs walking ever so delicately on the surface
tension, or the little plant growing just under the place where the
water has managed to rust through and slowly drips out, or the way
the welding was done on the trough, or how if his/her nose is under
the water when he/she exhales bubbles are made, or the bird flying
overhead and the cool way its poop drifts down, faster than it looks
like it should, but still responding to the wind.
>>

We can't make water here that will guarantee that level of awareness. <g>
Your horse is much smarter than most, and should be a great unschooler.

<<The problem with unschooling is that it isn't a means to an end. If
you unschool you aren't doing it so that your children will read and
write. You aren't doing it so that they will eventually learn to
turn off the television on their own. You are doing it because the
process is more important than the end. Or because unschooling is
the end and the beginning and the whole shebang.

<<And I don't know how it is possible to prevent people from believing
that unschooling is a means to an end. >>

I don't think it's possible at first to even begin to suggest it's not a
means to an end. And, early on, most have a definite purpose they need
unschooling to serve, which is to homeschool without doing school-damage
themselves. In and around all else, unschooling can be the means to that end.

The "free bonus" stuff is harder to describe. The sustenance of curiosity,
the bone-deep joy of discovery, all that magical-byproduct stuff ends up
being more important to most unschoolers early on. But it's hard to
"advertise" that or teach it.

When someone'd taking a child out of school, they have an emergency need. If
we tell them all "Unschooling will work for you," we don't really know for
sure it will work for them. We're being hypothetical.

Another way unschooling can be seen as a means to an end is if your goal is
to have a long and peaceful relationship with your children, one which will
last past their "school years."

But I think I see your point, that when it becomes a way of life, that it
becomes just... life!

Sandra

Jon and Rue Kream

Schuyler - I loved this post! This is just how we feel. ~Rue


>>>> I suppose in the end (I know I am flogging that poor horse metaphor)
if the horse is thirsty enough and the water potable he/she will
drink. The real question, I suppose is whether he/she will notice
the oily sheen on the top of the water refracting the light into
rainbows, or the bugs walking ever so delicately on the surface
tension,, or the little plant growing just under the place where the
water has managed to rust through and slowly drips out, or the way
the welding was done on the trough, or how if his/her nose is under
the water when he/she exhales bubbles are made, or the bird flying
overhead and the cool way its poop drifts down, faster than it looks
like it should, but still responding to the wind.

The problem with unschooling is that it isn't a means to an end. If
you unschool you aren't doing it so that your children will read and
write. You aren't doing it so that they will eventually learn to
turn off the television on their own. You are doing it because the
process is more important than the end. Or because unschooling is
the end and the beginning and the whole shebang.

And I don't know how it is possible to prevent people from believing
that unschooling is a means to an end.

Schuyler





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

schuyler_waynforth

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:

> When someone's taking a child out of school, they have an
> emergency need
> If
> we tell them all "Unschooling will work for you," we don't really
>know for
> sure it will work for them. We're being hypothetical.

And who said that hypotheticals are all bad <BWG>?

But, what do you mean by unschooling? Do you mean following the
steps around the room that others have taken, or do you mean dancing
in whatever way your feet move? I think that the reason unschooling
lists are full of questions about how unschooling works is because
there isn't a definable how. Unschooling works when you stop
schooling and start exploring. And it will work for them, but
unschooling is as much about an adult learning as it is about a
child learning. Unschooling is life. How do you get life right?
And how can you make any guarantees about others ability to live
life? And how can you reassure people who believe that schooling is
difficult that learning doesn't have to be? You reach into your
Buddhist bag and you live your life in the way that best
demonstrates a life well lived. You make yourself accessible to
questions. You become the showcase family for unschooling. And,
well, haven't you done that. If someone gets unschooling they get
it. Maybe with lots of help and encouragement and handholding. If
someone doesn't get unschooling they get on-line (with all do
respect) and spout spelling rules as evidence that life cannot
produce all learning and that what they are doing is the best way to
do things.

I think you are being too hard on yourself. You cannot know what
child is a musician, nor what person is ripe for unschooling. Who
are you to tell people not to reach for the brass ring even if they
are way, way too short? Maybe they'll go over to the carnie section
of the fair and win a grabber and come back and surprise you. Or
maybe they won't, and when their child is 9 and not reading or
spelling correctly they will turn away from unschooling. And they
will say that unschooling didn't serve them, that it is a bogus and
fraudulant system and that Sandra Dodd is a silly old cow for
telling them that their child would end up knowing everything they
needed to know without being schooled at home. That is a risk you
take by spouting out for what you believe in.

> But I think I see your point, that when it becomes a way of life,
> that it
> becomes just... life!

Right!!

Schuyler

[email protected]

In a message dated 5/1/02 2:18:57 PM, dwaynf@... writes:

<< And it will work for them, but
unschooling is as much about an adult learning as it is about a
child learning. Unschooling is life. How do you get life right? >>

It is possible to live a life and avoid learning, or downplay it, or
pooh-pooh or insult it.

Unschooling needs to be a rich life with learning as one of the happy
priorities.

<< If someone gets unschooling they get
it. Maybe with lots of help and encouragement and handholding. >>

Well there is a lot of that available.

<<You cannot know what
child is a musician, nor what person is ripe for unschooling. >>

Not with absolute clarity, especially in the mid-range, but I can easily sort
the extreme cases out into "easily likely" and "eeek!"

<<Who are you to tell people not to reach for the brass ring even if they
are way, way too short? >>

Just so I'm not saying "That ring is accessible to everyone equally," because
that just isn't going to get true in this lifetime.

Sandra