Frustration and expression
madh4ofwaipu
Our nearly three year old was playing with boxes. We have heaps of largish ones. Some have been torn so there is only a sheet of card board.
Both our children were building houses.
My guess was my son became frustrated.
He seemed enraged that the single sheet would not stand up on it's own (like a solid box with sides would).
I realize my mistake in wanting to do what ever he wanted for him as it was his learning experience. So I stopped very quickly.
But what to do.
I sat with him saying that 'mummy is here if you need me' every so often I would touch his back and offer to wipe his nose.
At a point his stress was so much i needed to move away for a few moments I said I would make some morning tea but if he needed me I would be right there.
He seemed to burn out after a while and lost intrest in the building project.
Should I of sat with him? I don't want to feel like pressure or a helicoptor mother but i wanted to love and support.
How else could I give support but not get burnt from an outpouring of expression.
My older daughter completely ignored her brother.
Both our children were building houses.
My guess was my son became frustrated.
He seemed enraged that the single sheet would not stand up on it's own (like a solid box with sides would).
I realize my mistake in wanting to do what ever he wanted for him as it was his learning experience. So I stopped very quickly.
But what to do.
I sat with him saying that 'mummy is here if you need me' every so often I would touch his back and offer to wipe his nose.
At a point his stress was so much i needed to move away for a few moments I said I would make some morning tea but if he needed me I would be right there.
He seemed to burn out after a while and lost intrest in the building project.
Should I of sat with him? I don't want to feel like pressure or a helicoptor mother but i wanted to love and support.
How else could I give support but not get burnt from an outpouring of expression.
My older daughter completely ignored her brother.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
You want to step in *before* he gets to that point not wait until he has lost it to step in.
Be more proactive and more present. At his age it is very common for children to want to do things and
not be able and get really frustrated trying to do so.
Also make sure he is not tired or hungry.
If you had helped him with making the cardboard box stand up before he was upset, or distracted him, or helped him
in another creative way before all this happened it would have been much better.
Sometimes even with prevention things will go South. At that time some children need to get their frustrations out.
My daughter Gigi used to cry for a long time and she would say to me that she could not stop crying. She needed to get it out.
Be there for him. That can be in different ways for different children. Some do not want to be touched, some do not want you to talk to them. You will have to find out how to be there for him and supportive without making him more upset.
Alex Polikowsky
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Be more proactive and more present. At his age it is very common for children to want to do things and
not be able and get really frustrated trying to do so.
Also make sure he is not tired or hungry.
If you had helped him with making the cardboard box stand up before he was upset, or distracted him, or helped him
in another creative way before all this happened it would have been much better.
Sometimes even with prevention things will go South. At that time some children need to get their frustrations out.
My daughter Gigi used to cry for a long time and she would say to me that she could not stop crying. She needed to get it out.
Be there for him. That can be in different ways for different children. Some do not want to be touched, some do not want you to talk to them. You will have to find out how to be there for him and supportive without making him more upset.
Alex Polikowsky
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Our nearly three year old was playing with boxes. ...
But what to do.
I sat with him saying that 'mummy is here if you need me' every so often I would touch his back and offer to wipe his nose.-=-
"Nearly three" is still a two-year-old.
I think I would have distracted him with an offer of a bath, or asked him to walk with me to the mailbox. Or sit with him while he cried, but not said anything repeatedly.
Or say "cardboard doesn't do what I want it to do either." Talk about the thing, rather than his nose and being there. Maybe he wanted information. Maybe he wanted rescue.
I think staying where he couldn't turn is frustration on the housebuilding project was good, but maybe getting him away where there was something more interesting could have helped, too.
Sandra
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But what to do.
I sat with him saying that 'mummy is here if you need me' every so often I would touch his back and offer to wipe his nose.-=-
"Nearly three" is still a two-year-old.
I think I would have distracted him with an offer of a bath, or asked him to walk with me to the mailbox. Or sit with him while he cried, but not said anything repeatedly.
Or say "cardboard doesn't do what I want it to do either." Talk about the thing, rather than his nose and being there. Maybe he wanted information. Maybe he wanted rescue.
I think staying where he couldn't turn is frustration on the housebuilding project was good, but maybe getting him away where there was something more interesting could have helped, too.
Sandra
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sheeboo2
---I don't want to feel like pressure or a helicopter mother but i wanted to love and support.
How else could I give support but not get burnt from an outpouring of expression.----
First, get rid of ideas that come from conventional, mainstream parenting like "helicopter mom." For one, that expression, I believe, refers to parents who hover over their children's activities *in school* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_parent). It won't help you confidently unschool if you apply school-dominant culture language to your parenting practice.
What do you mean by "get burnt from an outpouring of expression?" You don't need to come back and answer that here, but think about it. As a mom, do you feel hurt, frustrated, out-of-control.....what? when a 2yr old has an outpouring of emotion?
Your child needs you to be strong, much, much stronger emotionally than he is, especially when he's melting down from frustration. He needs you to be his "shelter from the storm," not someone wincing because she's afraid/timid of being near normal toddler emotion.
How you steel yourself up depends on what exactly you're afraid of. Maybe taking a few deep breaths when she gets upset will be enough. Maybe visualizing yourself as a big tough momma bear or a mountain or a solid tree with sturdy deep roots. You may need to go further, though, a look at why his emotion feels like it may "burn" you.
Sandra's page on breathing is wonderful, as is her recording on parenting peacefully:
http://sandradodd.com/breathing
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully (scroll down to the bottom)
Brie
How else could I give support but not get burnt from an outpouring of expression.----
First, get rid of ideas that come from conventional, mainstream parenting like "helicopter mom." For one, that expression, I believe, refers to parents who hover over their children's activities *in school* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_parent). It won't help you confidently unschool if you apply school-dominant culture language to your parenting practice.
What do you mean by "get burnt from an outpouring of expression?" You don't need to come back and answer that here, but think about it. As a mom, do you feel hurt, frustrated, out-of-control.....what? when a 2yr old has an outpouring of emotion?
Your child needs you to be strong, much, much stronger emotionally than he is, especially when he's melting down from frustration. He needs you to be his "shelter from the storm," not someone wincing because she's afraid/timid of being near normal toddler emotion.
How you steel yourself up depends on what exactly you're afraid of. Maybe taking a few deep breaths when she gets upset will be enough. Maybe visualizing yourself as a big tough momma bear or a mountain or a solid tree with sturdy deep roots. You may need to go further, though, a look at why his emotion feels like it may "burn" you.
Sandra's page on breathing is wonderful, as is her recording on parenting peacefully:
http://sandradodd.com/breathing
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully (scroll down to the bottom)
Brie
ftb2_ss
--- In [email protected], "madh4ofwaipu" <megan2@...> wrote:
I would have explained that it just doesn't work that way, and suggest and demonstrate (once) how to use more than one piece to get them to stand up, then lit him continue with others.
>*********
> .......
> He seemed enraged that the single sheet would not stand up on it's own (like a solid box with sides would).
> I realize my mistake in wanting to do what ever he wanted for him as it was his learning experience. So I stopped very quickly.
> But what to do.
> .....
I would have explained that it just doesn't work that way, and suggest and demonstrate (once) how to use more than one piece to get them to stand up, then lit him continue with others.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 15, 2012, at 1:29 PM, ftb2_ss wrote:
An explanation of how the world works isn't likely to help a 2 yo deal with frustration with it.
It also suggests that kids need what they can see happening explained to them. It also imposes conclusions about what's possible and what isn't. Exploration is about trying things, seeing what happens, drawing conclusions, adjusting theories, trying some more. And repeat.
The goal of exploration isn't learning the right way (that mom or dad knows already) but for kids to try things out that intrigue them and make their own unique connections to build an understanding of how the world works.
Sometimes the world doesn't cooperate with theories ;-) IT's frustrating and in that moment, what kids need most is compassion and perhaps distraction with something else to help them disconnect. (Depends on the child. That's where getting to know your kids comes in :-)
And sometimes kids are so involved they don't realize how hungry or tired they are. Best is being aware to tend to that before kids get to that point. If it's slipped by, then, again, compassion and helping them switch gears.
Joyce
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> I would have explained that it just doesn't work that way,Giving kids information to help them make better decisions is good.
> and suggest and demonstrate (once) how to use more than
> one piece to get them to stand up, then lit him continue with others.
An explanation of how the world works isn't likely to help a 2 yo deal with frustration with it.
It also suggests that kids need what they can see happening explained to them. It also imposes conclusions about what's possible and what isn't. Exploration is about trying things, seeing what happens, drawing conclusions, adjusting theories, trying some more. And repeat.
The goal of exploration isn't learning the right way (that mom or dad knows already) but for kids to try things out that intrigue them and make their own unique connections to build an understanding of how the world works.
Sometimes the world doesn't cooperate with theories ;-) IT's frustrating and in that moment, what kids need most is compassion and perhaps distraction with something else to help them disconnect. (Depends on the child. That's where getting to know your kids comes in :-)
And sometimes kids are so involved they don't realize how hungry or tired they are. Best is being aware to tend to that before kids get to that point. If it's slipped by, then, again, compassion and helping them switch gears.
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
I've known because of paper dolls since I was a little kid that one piece of cardboard can stand up if it has two notched feet. I was five, though, not two. A two year old can't do that (not even a nearly-three), but the mother could!
Sandra
Sandra
Pam Sorooshian
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 10:29 AM, ftb2_ss <gregandrene@...> wrote:
enraged about something, how does it work when you "explain," "suggest,"
and "demonstrate (once)"
Assuming the child calms down enough to be willing and able to pay
attention to your demonstration, why would you only be willing to
demonstrate once?
-pam
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> I would have explained that it just doesn't work that way, and suggest andAre you an unschooling parent? How old are your children? When they are
> demonstrate (once) how to use more than one piece to get them to stand up,
> then lit him continue with others.
enraged about something, how does it work when you "explain," "suggest,"
and "demonstrate (once)"
Assuming the child calms down enough to be willing and able to pay
attention to your demonstration, why would you only be willing to
demonstrate once?
-pam
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ftb2_ss
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
Apparently not yet. Our sons are 14 and 16. I guess we started too late. When I explain why something won't work, suggest alternative methods and demonstrate, they seemed grateful that I shared my knowledge with them rather than let them continue to fumble around failing in the task. Surely unschooling, child directed as it seems to be, doesn't mean never telling your child that certain things simply don't work some ways, leaving them to try and fail to the point of frustration and abandonment of the task? As an extreme example, do we wait until our child is burned by the fire, or hit by the car so they discover how dangerous it is?
Greg
>******************
> Are you an unschooling parent? How old are your children? When they are enraged about something, how does it work when you "explain," "suggest," and "demonstrate (once)"
>
> Assuming the child calms down enough to be willing and able to pay
> attention to your demonstration, why would you only be willing to
> demonstrate once?
>
> -pam
>
Apparently not yet. Our sons are 14 and 16. I guess we started too late. When I explain why something won't work, suggest alternative methods and demonstrate, they seemed grateful that I shared my knowledge with them rather than let them continue to fumble around failing in the task. Surely unschooling, child directed as it seems to be, doesn't mean never telling your child that certain things simply don't work some ways, leaving them to try and fail to the point of frustration and abandonment of the task? As an extreme example, do we wait until our child is burned by the fire, or hit by the car so they discover how dangerous it is?
Greg
Joyce Fetteroll
On Feb 15, 2012, at 4:45 PM, ftb2_ss wrote:
Unschooling is supporting their explorations of the world, sprinkling their lives with ideas they might think are interesting, keeping an eye out for things you know they're interested in, creating a rich environment for them to make connections, find what is good and bad to them, what is interesting to them and not.
You listen to them. You let them talk. You help them explore to discover what is right for them.
Often it's giving them information for them to work with rather than answers.
A 2 yo very often wants physical help rather than explanations. It's about getting to know your kids and how they want you to support their explorations.
I assume your sons have not been unschooled until now. In that case they're used to teachers treating the world as if each question had one right answer. And their task is to read enough to learn what that answer is. They may not trust their ability to figure out problems so they'll be grateful when you give them an answer.
I would continue to listen to them and give them what *they're* asking for. But rather than keeping your eye focused on the right answer that they should be headed toward, keep your eye on them and help them work through the questions they're asking.
Because you have ideas stuck in your head about how you're supposed to respond to problems so when you hear something that sound like "Don't," the only answer you have left is "Don't do anything."
To learn something new it requires letting go of what you already know. This can help:
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Don't worry. You can pick up what you believe again if you decide what we're saying isn't right for you.
If you can't believe we're saying that, perhaps asking how to handle such situations would get some answers. But suggesting people are insane for the outrageous behavior you're guessing that they must be doing will more often than not cause people to go on the defensive and any useful discussion will stop there.
I hope you don't use that tactic on your sons or wife.
Joyce
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> When I explain why something won't work, suggestWhy would it be either tell them the answer or let them go it all alone?
> alternative methods and demonstrate, they seemed
> grateful that I shared my knowledge with them rather
> than let them continue to fumble around failing in the task.
> Surely unschooling, child directed as it seems to be,Child directed is a misleading description.
Unschooling is supporting their explorations of the world, sprinkling their lives with ideas they might think are interesting, keeping an eye out for things you know they're interested in, creating a rich environment for them to make connections, find what is good and bad to them, what is interesting to them and not.
> doesn't mean never telling your child that certainNot never. But when depends. It depends on what *they're* trying to do. It depends on their ages. It depends.
> things simply don't work some ways,
You listen to them. You let them talk. You help them explore to discover what is right for them.
Often it's giving them information for them to work with rather than answers.
A 2 yo very often wants physical help rather than explanations. It's about getting to know your kids and how they want you to support their explorations.
I assume your sons have not been unschooled until now. In that case they're used to teachers treating the world as if each question had one right answer. And their task is to read enough to learn what that answer is. They may not trust their ability to figure out problems so they'll be grateful when you give them an answer.
I would continue to listen to them and give them what *they're* asking for. But rather than keeping your eye focused on the right answer that they should be headed toward, keep your eye on them and help them work through the questions they're asking.
> leaving themWhy would you think we're saying that?
> to try and fail to the point of frustration and
> abandonment of the task?
Because you have ideas stuck in your head about how you're supposed to respond to problems so when you hear something that sound like "Don't," the only answer you have left is "Don't do anything."
To learn something new it requires letting go of what you already know. This can help:
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
Don't worry. You can pick up what you believe again if you decide what we're saying isn't right for you.
> As an extreme example, do we wait until our child is burned by the fire, or hit by the car so they discover how dangerous it is?Why would we say that?
If you can't believe we're saying that, perhaps asking how to handle such situations would get some answers. But suggesting people are insane for the outrageous behavior you're guessing that they must be doing will more often than not cause people to go on the defensive and any useful discussion will stop there.
I hope you don't use that tactic on your sons or wife.
Joyce
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Jenny Cyphers
***A two year old can't do that (not even a nearly-three), but the mother could!***
My very first thought upon reading the original post was that the mom could do it. If it were *me*, I would've stepped in and finished the fort and made it awesome to get on with the playing IN the fort, which was probably largely the goal, not the building part. I would never have been sitting nearby as a 2 yr old tried to do it by themselves. That wouldn't have been a scenario at all since I would've been doing it with from the get go, letting my 2 yr old help me, not the other way around.
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My very first thought upon reading the original post was that the mom could do it. If it were *me*, I would've stepped in and finished the fort and made it awesome to get on with the playing IN the fort, which was probably largely the goal, not the building part. I would never have been sitting nearby as a 2 yr old tried to do it by themselves. That wouldn't have been a scenario at all since I would've been doing it with from the get go, letting my 2 yr old help me, not the other way around.
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Jenny Cyphers
***Surely unschooling, child directed as it seems to be, doesn't mean never telling your child that certain things simply don't work some ways, leaving them to try and fail to the point of frustration and abandonment of the task?***
I've told my 17 yr old that letting the ferret litter get out of control doesn't work. It doesn't mean that she takes care of it either. It also means that she does get frustrated with it and abandons the task. Telling her that the way she's approaching this issue isn't working, is redundant since she already KNOWS it doesn't. The only solution that I can see in the moment is to do it for her until she really CAN and DOES do it for herself.
As to "child-led" and extreme examples of anything, it's better to see the goal and then find a way to get to it. If the goal is to live to be old, then getting hit by cars doesn't get to factor in. If the goal is to play with fire and not get hurt, then doing things that don't get you burned will be a big part of the factor that plays into fire play!
If the goal is to not have ferret poop everywhere, for me, the easiest way around it is to take care of it myself as much as I dislike it. My sharing of wisdom in this area hasn't really been appreciated ;)
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I've told my 17 yr old that letting the ferret litter get out of control doesn't work. It doesn't mean that she takes care of it either. It also means that she does get frustrated with it and abandons the task. Telling her that the way she's approaching this issue isn't working, is redundant since she already KNOWS it doesn't. The only solution that I can see in the moment is to do it for her until she really CAN and DOES do it for herself.
As to "child-led" and extreme examples of anything, it's better to see the goal and then find a way to get to it. If the goal is to live to be old, then getting hit by cars doesn't get to factor in. If the goal is to play with fire and not get hurt, then doing things that don't get you burned will be a big part of the factor that plays into fire play!
If the goal is to not have ferret poop everywhere, for me, the easiest way around it is to take care of it myself as much as I dislike it. My sharing of wisdom in this area hasn't really been appreciated ;)
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Pam Sorooshian
On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 1:45 PM, ftb2_ss <gregandrene@...> wrote:
rage?
Surely unschooling, child directed as it seems to be, doesn't mean never
ignore all the discussion of relationships and support and being fully
present and engaged with your child and so on.
I know those were not serious questions, but seriously they are in the
exact opposite direction of unschooling.
We were talking about a 2 year old who thought he could stand a piece of
cardboard up and got frustrated and enraged when it didn't work. Advice
given included building WITH him more and being more present and engaged to
avoid this kind of problem in future.
But your advice was to explain it to a 2 year old and show him. Once. So -
I'm still wondering...why "once?"
-pam
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> Apparently not yet.So - you're not unschooling or you are but started late? Confused.
> Our sons are 14 and 16. I guess we started too late. When I explain whyDid you realize the child in question is 2 years old? And was already in a
> something won't work, suggest alternative methods and demonstrate, they
> seemed grateful that I shared my knowledge with them rather than let them
> continue to fumble around failing in the task.
rage?
Surely unschooling, child directed as it seems to be, doesn't mean never
> telling your child that certain things simply don't work some ways, leavingChild directed? You might want to read here about that idea:
> them to try and fail to the point of frustration and abandonment of the
> task?
>http://learninghappens.wordpress.com/2011/09/24/unschooling-is-not-child-led-learning/
>As an extreme example, do we wait until our child is burned by the fire, or
> hit by the car so they discover how dangerous it is?Oh yes, of course, that is exactly what unschooling is about. Feel free to
ignore all the discussion of relationships and support and being fully
present and engaged with your child and so on.
I know those were not serious questions, but seriously they are in the
exact opposite direction of unschooling.
We were talking about a 2 year old who thought he could stand a piece of
cardboard up and got frustrated and enraged when it didn't work. Advice
given included building WITH him more and being more present and engaged to
avoid this kind of problem in future.
But your advice was to explain it to a 2 year old and show him. Once. So -
I'm still wondering...why "once?"
-pam
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Robin Bentley
> My very first thought upon reading the original post was that theI immediately thought of all the things we could try together, like
> mom could do it. If it were *me*, I would've stepped in and
> finished the fort and made it awesome to get on with the playing IN
> the fort, which was probably largely the goal, not the building
> part. I would never have been sitting nearby as a 2 yr old tried to
> do it by themselves. That wouldn't have been a scenario at all
> since I would've been doing it with from the get go, letting my 2 yr
> old help me, not the other way around.
making the paper-doll-stands out of part of the cardboard, using clay
to stick the cardboard into, taping the piece down and propping it up
with something. I'm sure there are a dozen more things that could be
done, together.
And then I'd write it down in a blog as "engineering" - for the
skeptical in-laws <g>.
Robin B.