arguing
Sandra Dodd
There's a facebook page I started, a group called Radical Unschooling Info. It's getting big, and this weekend there was a lot of activity because of the same old reason--I suck, I'm mean. And as usual, that flared up, was argued, got cooler, people started writing mushy things, good writing came of it, good writing was praised, people testified, people calmed down.
Somewhere in there, though, someone came to defend the overly sensitive, the deeply wounded, and a couple of people (new to unschooling, new to discussions) assured us that it COULD be discussed without hurting anyone's feelings ever, and someone said "It's a shame that..." (which translates to "you should be ashamed" or, if the person isn't a very careful or thoughtful writer, it could mean "bummer." But they got it from someone who didn't mean "bummer," they meant "you should be ashamed."
Jenny wrote this this, though, and I'm bringing one full response of hers and a story from my house that I posted there. I would rather the best stuff stay here, where more people see it and it can be found again.
Jenny Cyphers:
----------
What kind of relationship does a mom or dad have with their kids if they are really sensitive and defensive? If their child corrects them, will they respond that way to their child?
Something that I've found to really super cool about unschooling, is my own ability to be wrong when confronted by one of my kids. There was a time that I might have held onto my own belief that I was right and missed out on that.
----------
Me:
When our kids were very young, Keith asked me why I let them argue with me. I said if I was wrong, and they were right, it was good for them to be able to express that. We talked about it various times. I told him I thought it was good practice for them, and that if they could win an argument with me, they could probably win one with anybody.
They didn't grow up to be argumentative. They grew up to be thoughtful, careful and analytical. They grew up to gravitate toward people who were honest and made sense, and to avoid bullshitters.
Another side benefit of me "letting them argue" is that there never was any "because I'm the mom." It was "Because I think this makes the best sense." So when they were teens, and now that they're young adults, they know if I suggest they tweak their thinking that it's not anything beyond my regard for their peace and progress.
They don't take a position they can't defend.
Somewhere in there, though, someone came to defend the overly sensitive, the deeply wounded, and a couple of people (new to unschooling, new to discussions) assured us that it COULD be discussed without hurting anyone's feelings ever, and someone said "It's a shame that..." (which translates to "you should be ashamed" or, if the person isn't a very careful or thoughtful writer, it could mean "bummer." But they got it from someone who didn't mean "bummer," they meant "you should be ashamed."
Jenny wrote this this, though, and I'm bringing one full response of hers and a story from my house that I posted there. I would rather the best stuff stay here, where more people see it and it can be found again.
Jenny Cyphers:
----------
What kind of relationship does a mom or dad have with their kids if they are really sensitive and defensive? If their child corrects them, will they respond that way to their child?
Something that I've found to really super cool about unschooling, is my own ability to be wrong when confronted by one of my kids. There was a time that I might have held onto my own belief that I was right and missed out on that.
----------
Me:
When our kids were very young, Keith asked me why I let them argue with me. I said if I was wrong, and they were right, it was good for them to be able to express that. We talked about it various times. I told him I thought it was good practice for them, and that if they could win an argument with me, they could probably win one with anybody.
They didn't grow up to be argumentative. They grew up to be thoughtful, careful and analytical. They grew up to gravitate toward people who were honest and made sense, and to avoid bullshitters.
Another side benefit of me "letting them argue" is that there never was any "because I'm the mom." It was "Because I think this makes the best sense." So when they were teens, and now that they're young adults, they know if I suggest they tweak their thinking that it's not anything beyond my regard for their peace and progress.
They don't take a position they can't defend.
[email protected]
Hi Sandra
I can't find the radical unschooling info facebook page (maybe because I'm searching on an app) Could you please send post a link to it.
Many thanks
Rachel
I can't find the radical unschooling info facebook page (maybe because I'm searching on an app) Could you please send post a link to it.
Many thanks
Rachel
On 6 Feb 2012, at 16:06, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> There's a facebook page I started, a group called Radical Unschooling Info. It's getting big, and this weekend there was a lot of activity because of the same old reason--I suck, I'm mean. And as usual, that flared up, was argued, got cooler, people started writing mushy things, good writing came of it, good writing was praised, people testified, people calmed down.
>
> Somewhere in there, though, someone came to defend the overly sensitive, the deeply wounded, and a couple of people (new to unschooling, new to discussions) assured us that it COULD be discussed without hurting anyone's feelings ever, and someone said "It's a shame that..." (which translates to "you should be ashamed" or, if the person isn't a very careful or thoughtful writer, it could mean "bummer." But they got it from someone who didn't mean "bummer," they meant "you should be ashamed."
>
> Jenny wrote this this, though, and I'm bringing one full response of hers and a story from my house that I posted there. I would rather the best stuff stay here, where more people see it and it can be found again.
>
> Jenny Cyphers:
> ----------
> What kind of relationship does a mom or dad have with their kids if they are really sensitive and defensive? If their child corrects them, will they respond that way to their child?
>
> Something that I've found to really super cool about unschooling, is my own ability to be wrong when confronted by one of my kids. There was a time that I might have held onto my own belief that I was right and missed out on that.
> ----------
>
> Me:
>
> When our kids were very young, Keith asked me why I let them argue with me. I said if I was wrong, and they were right, it was good for them to be able to express that. We talked about it various times. I told him I thought it was good practice for them, and that if they could win an argument with me, they could probably win one with anybody.
>
> They didn't grow up to be argumentative. They grew up to be thoughtful, careful and analytical. They grew up to gravitate toward people who were honest and made sense, and to avoid bullshitters.
>
> Another side benefit of me "letting them argue" is that there never was any "because I'm the mom." It was "Because I think this makes the best sense." So when they were teens, and now that they're young adults, they know if I suggest they tweak their thinking that it's not anything beyond my regard for their peace and progress.
>
> They don't take a position they can't defend.
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- I can't find the radical unschooling info facebook page (maybe because I'm searching on an app) Could you please send post a link to it.-=-
http://www.facebook.com/groups/303347574750/
I'm not really recommending it. I was just saying where those quotes came from.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
http://www.facebook.com/groups/303347574750/
I'm not really recommending it. I was just saying where those quotes came from.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
>Although I think there are very sensitive people who are not at a stage of
> >>>......someone came to defend the overly sensitive, the deeply wounded,
> and a couple of people (new to unschooling, new to discussions) assured us
> that it COULD be discussed without hurting anyone's feelings ever, and
> someone said "It's a shame that..." (which translates to "you should be
> ashamed" or, if the person isn't a very careful or thoughtful writer, it
> could mean "bummer." But they got it from someone who didn't mean "bummer,"
> they meant "you should be ashamed.>>>>>
>
their own development where our kind of critical thinking approach is
something they are able to handle, I don't think that is the main reason
people get hurt and defensive and angry (mostly at Sandra, sometimes at
some of the rest of us).
On Facebook, someone posted about the thoughts she was having because she
didn't want to have those thoughts and was asking how to get rid of them
(thinking the children were atrophying on the couch when they were watching
a lot of tv).
Sandra responded with a description of an experiment - there would be a
group where unschooling parents accept what their kids love, a group where
parents know about unschooling but think what the kids love is bad for
them, and a control group that knows nothing about unschooling. In
describing the second group, Sandra used that person's phrase about
thinking her kids were "atrophying on the couch."
I, myself, thought this was a new and brilliant way to make the point that
I hoped would be so clear and convincing to the person that she would be
able to replace her thoughts about her children and tv with new ideas about
what would be relationship-building for her family over the long haul. I
LOVED it. I seemed to make the point SO obvious and I thought, "Aha - what
a GREAT way to get someone to really "get" that the way they think about
their children will have far-reaching implications on what their
relationship will be like for their entire lifetimes."
But some people entirely missed the point, the person who'd posted
originally among them.
She thought Sandra used her words to mock her for the sake of humor.
She thought Sandra had insulted her and lumped her in the "bad parents"
group.
She didn't realize Sandra had given her a gift - a tool to use to change
her own thinking.
I think this is an issue of people not having a high enough level of
Gardner's "interpersonal intelligence" to understand the point of what
someone else says when it isn't prefaced with enough explanation. (And if
that Facebook poster is reading this, she's maybe angry and hurt again
because she thinks I'm insulting her and saying she's not smart.)
People are usually insulting and mocking to others because it builds up
their own ego - they knock someone else down to make themselves feel
superior. And people accuse Sandra of that. But I know her really well. She
has a perfectly healthy ego and isn't at all into belittling others to
build her's up at all. By speaking and writing publicly, in fact, she sets
herself up to BE criticized and bad-mouthed in pretty ego-crushing ways;
she could stay quiet and not have to bear it.
When people have a lot of interpersonal intelligence, they sometimes assume
others have more than they actually do. They don't realize how much they
are leaving unsaid that others don't fill in or understand.
I think this is sometimes (not always, by any means) the source of
misunderstanding of what Sandra offers. People have an "I asked for help
and she gave me insults," reaction when they don't get that she DID offer
help - really awesome amazing help incredibly insightful help.
Sandra doesn't typically start out by saying things like, "This might seem
insulting to you, but I don't mean it that way and I hope you'll take it in
the spirit intended. I'm going to lay out an experiment with three groups
of parents. I'm not saying you are a bad person and stuck in the bad
parents group, I'm describing what would happen if you don't get yourself
OUT of thinking the way you are, and it is great that that is what you are
trying to do. I'm hoping that if you think about this experiment, you'll
have a realization about the damage that kind of thinking can do to your
long-term relationships with your children. I'm hoping that your increased
awareness will help you put your relationships first so that you will focus
on that. Once you start focusing on finding the value in what your children
love, you will discover that those old thought patterns disappear -
replaced by enjoyment and even surprise at how much the kids are learning.
Now, I hope you find the following useful."
And on and on....
Sandra says what she has to say. It is direct and to the point. Because
we're talking about the most important relationships humans can have -
parent/child - imagined insults hurt a lot and emotions run high and people
are very reactive. Others feel defensive on behalf of those they believe
were insulted. They tell Sandra she should be nicer. But Sandra is already
spending a huge part of her life being "nice" - she does what she does
entirely out of the goodness of her heart and the sheer quantity of what
she offers is staggering. Telling her to be nicer makes no sense - from her
point of view it sounds like people are telling her that being nicer means
being less helpful - to soften what she says, to pat people on the back and
tell them what they're doing is just fine, that they are the parent and
know what's best for their child, etc.
The insights Sandra has to offer are amazing. I've been the beneficiary of
a lot of her help, and I've been around to watch what she's been able to
offer people for the past 16 or 17 years. Her ability to get to the heart
of a matter is a direct result of her having an extraordinarily high level
of that Gardner interpersonal intelligence. Therapists go to school for
years to try to develop that kind of ability. She shakes people up because
she gets so quickly and strongly right to the crux of the matter. I have,
myself, described feeling kind of an electric shock pass through me when I
first heard some of what Sandra had to say. I've felt my breath catch in my
throat. And, I have felt angry and hurt, too, by the way. But those were my
initial reactions and I used my intellect to get past my emotional
responses and I analyzed what she had said and I made discoveries about
myself and my family that significantly changed our lives for the better.
What we do on this list (and on the Radical Unschoolers Info facebook page)
is not easy-going casual sweet-sounding conversation. On this list, we have
introductory materials that everybody is asked to read before
participating. We try really hard to get the idea across that this may not
be a good place for those who are easily insulted or sensitive to having
their ideas laid out and dissected and critiqued.
There are many many people who love this stuff. It is, for me, like really
difficult therapy sessions - hard to get through, painful, but, at the end
of the process, life is SO much better and it is extremely worth it. I
wouldn't want people telling a therapist to go easier on me, be nicer, not
to dig so deeply, to avoid causing pain, and I don't want Sandra (or
others) to change, either, for the sake of those who don't want to do this
kind of work.
ALL that said - can we who do a lot of writing about unschooling improve
how we offer what we offer? ALL these years there has been nonstop
self-evaluation going on - Sandra is at the forefront of that, too. We talk
and talk about how we can do better, how we can help people, what will help
them understand more and faster, what we are learning, how we can improve
our own lives, and so on. We get defensive sometimes and don't respond at
our best. We have our blind spots. We have our own family issues and we
generally confess openly to those, and that's not easy either. Our families
have let themselves be held up under harsh lights to be questioned and
discussed. Not always easy at all. We have made our credibility and
integrity matters of public scrutiny and feel the pressure to be
scrupulously honest and clear at all times about absolutely everything.
Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living." That's an
incredibly strong statement - "not worth living" - and I think this kind of
discussion is only good for those who take that quite seriously. We are
trying to live deeply examined lives. That's what it is all about!
-pam sorooshian
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim H
<<<...The insights Sandra has to offer are amazing...>>>
Everything you said Pam is so very, very true. I so loved reading this. Having not ever met Sandra in real life I can only imagine that she is exactly how you’ve described her. Her dedication and presence in online unschooling circles is like a golden cocoon around our children. It is what I continually long for. Her honest and straightforwardness comes from the most wonderful place – she cares totally about the lives of children and the tender, precious relationship between parents and children.
I fear that I sound like a psycho Sandra fan every time I post here as it’s usually only to glorify Sandra but I am really just a normal, unschooling-role-model deprived Aussie mum trying to take head of all that I hear on this wonderful list because I treasure it as precious gold. It sickens me every time I hear the Sandra knockers. They are so quickly offended by the very advice that they apparently desire. If only they would read the intro to these groups and read, read, read before they open their mouths.
Hey, and by the way, you are pretty darn special yourself, Pam. Love everything you have to say too.
The world is a much better place because of the unschooling likes of Sandra’s and Pam’s.
Kim
From: Pam Sorooshian
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 7:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] arguing
their own development where our kind of critical thinking approach is
something they are able to handle, I don't think that is the main reason
people get hurt and defensive and angry (mostly at Sandra, sometimes at
some of the rest of us).
On Facebook, someone posted about the thoughts she was having because she
didn't want to have those thoughts and was asking how to get rid of them
(thinking the children were atrophying on the couch when they were watching
a lot of tv).
Sandra responded with a description of an experiment - there would be a
group where unschooling parents accept what their kids love, a group where
parents know about unschooling but think what the kids love is bad for
them, and a control group that knows nothing about unschooling. In
describing the second group, Sandra used that person's phrase about
thinking her kids were "atrophying on the couch."
I, myself, thought this was a new and brilliant way to make the point that
I hoped would be so clear and convincing to the person that she would be
able to replace her thoughts about her children and tv with new ideas about
what would be relationship-building for her family over the long haul. I
LOVED it. I seemed to make the point SO obvious and I thought, "Aha - what
a GREAT way to get someone to really "get" that the way they think about
their children will have far-reaching implications on what their
relationship will be like for their entire lifetimes."
But some people entirely missed the point, the person who'd posted
originally among them.
She thought Sandra used her words to mock her for the sake of humor.
She thought Sandra had insulted her and lumped her in the "bad parents"
group.
She didn't realize Sandra had given her a gift - a tool to use to change
her own thinking.
I think this is an issue of people not having a high enough level of
Gardner's "interpersonal intelligence" to understand the point of what
someone else says when it isn't prefaced with enough explanation. (And if
that Facebook poster is reading this, she's maybe angry and hurt again
because she thinks I'm insulting her and saying she's not smart.)
People are usually insulting and mocking to others because it builds up
their own ego - they knock someone else down to make themselves feel
superior. And people accuse Sandra of that. But I know her really well. She
has a perfectly healthy ego and isn't at all into belittling others to
build her's up at all. By speaking and writing publicly, in fact, she sets
herself up to BE criticized and bad-mouthed in pretty ego-crushing ways;
she could stay quiet and not have to bear it.
When people have a lot of interpersonal intelligence, they sometimes assume
others have more than they actually do. They don't realize how much they
are leaving unsaid that others don't fill in or understand.
I think this is sometimes (not always, by any means) the source of
misunderstanding of what Sandra offers. People have an "I asked for help
and she gave me insults," reaction when they don't get that she DID offer
help - really awesome amazing help incredibly insightful help.
Sandra doesn't typically start out by saying things like, "This might seem
insulting to you, but I don't mean it that way and I hope you'll take it in
the spirit intended. I'm going to lay out an experiment with three groups
of parents. I'm not saying you are a bad person and stuck in the bad
parents group, I'm describing what would happen if you don't get yourself
OUT of thinking the way you are, and it is great that that is what you are
trying to do. I'm hoping that if you think about this experiment, you'll
have a realization about the damage that kind of thinking can do to your
long-term relationships with your children. I'm hoping that your increased
awareness will help you put your relationships first so that you will focus
on that. Once you start focusing on finding the value in what your children
love, you will discover that those old thought patterns disappear -
replaced by enjoyment and even surprise at how much the kids are learning.
Now, I hope you find the following useful."
And on and on....
Sandra says what she has to say. It is direct and to the point. Because
we're talking about the most important relationships humans can have -
parent/child - imagined insults hurt a lot and emotions run high and people
are very reactive. Others feel defensive on behalf of those they believe
were insulted. They tell Sandra she should be nicer. But Sandra is already
spending a huge part of her life being "nice" - she does what she does
entirely out of the goodness of her heart and the sheer quantity of what
she offers is staggering. Telling her to be nicer makes no sense - from her
point of view it sounds like people are telling her that being nicer means
being less helpful - to soften what she says, to pat people on the back and
tell them what they're doing is just fine, that they are the parent and
know what's best for their child, etc.
The insights Sandra has to offer are amazing. I've been the beneficiary of
a lot of her help, and I've been around to watch what she's been able to
offer people for the past 16 or 17 years. Her ability to get to the heart
of a matter is a direct result of her having an extraordinarily high level
of that Gardner interpersonal intelligence. Therapists go to school for
years to try to develop that kind of ability. She shakes people up because
she gets so quickly and strongly right to the crux of the matter. I have,
myself, described feeling kind of an electric shock pass through me when I
first heard some of what Sandra had to say. I've felt my breath catch in my
throat. And, I have felt angry and hurt, too, by the way. But those were my
initial reactions and I used my intellect to get past my emotional
responses and I analyzed what she had said and I made discoveries about
myself and my family that significantly changed our lives for the better.
What we do on this list (and on the Radical Unschoolers Info facebook page)
is not easy-going casual sweet-sounding conversation. On this list, we have
introductory materials that everybody is asked to read before
participating. We try really hard to get the idea across that this may not
be a good place for those who are easily insulted or sensitive to having
their ideas laid out and dissected and critiqued.
There are many many people who love this stuff. It is, for me, like really
difficult therapy sessions - hard to get through, painful, but, at the end
of the process, life is SO much better and it is extremely worth it. I
wouldn't want people telling a therapist to go easier on me, be nicer, not
to dig so deeply, to avoid causing pain, and I don't want Sandra (or
others) to change, either, for the sake of those who don't want to do this
kind of work.
ALL that said - can we who do a lot of writing about unschooling improve
how we offer what we offer? ALL these years there has been nonstop
self-evaluation going on - Sandra is at the forefront of that, too. We talk
and talk about how we can do better, how we can help people, what will help
them understand more and faster, what we are learning, how we can improve
our own lives, and so on. We get defensive sometimes and don't respond at
our best. We have our blind spots. We have our own family issues and we
generally confess openly to those, and that's not easy either. Our families
have let themselves be held up under harsh lights to be questioned and
discussed. Not always easy at all. We have made our credibility and
integrity matters of public scrutiny and feel the pressure to be
scrupulously honest and clear at all times about absolutely everything.
Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living." That's an
incredibly strong statement - "not worth living" - and I think this kind of
discussion is only good for those who take that quite seriously. We are
trying to live deeply examined lives. That's what it is all about!
-pam sorooshian
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Everything you said Pam is so very, very true. I so loved reading this. Having not ever met Sandra in real life I can only imagine that she is exactly how you’ve described her. Her dedication and presence in online unschooling circles is like a golden cocoon around our children. It is what I continually long for. Her honest and straightforwardness comes from the most wonderful place – she cares totally about the lives of children and the tender, precious relationship between parents and children.
I fear that I sound like a psycho Sandra fan every time I post here as it’s usually only to glorify Sandra but I am really just a normal, unschooling-role-model deprived Aussie mum trying to take head of all that I hear on this wonderful list because I treasure it as precious gold. It sickens me every time I hear the Sandra knockers. They are so quickly offended by the very advice that they apparently desire. If only they would read the intro to these groups and read, read, read before they open their mouths.
Hey, and by the way, you are pretty darn special yourself, Pam. Love everything you have to say too.
The world is a much better place because of the unschooling likes of Sandra’s and Pam’s.
Kim
From: Pam Sorooshian
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2012 7:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] arguing
>Although I think there are very sensitive people who are not at a stage of
> >>>......someone came to defend the overly sensitive, the deeply wounded,
> and a couple of people (new to unschooling, new to discussions) assured us
> that it COULD be discussed without hurting anyone's feelings ever, and
> someone said "It's a shame that..." (which translates to "you should be
> ashamed" or, if the person isn't a very careful or thoughtful writer, it
> could mean "bummer." But they got it from someone who didn't mean "bummer,"
> they meant "you should be ashamed.>>>>>
>
their own development where our kind of critical thinking approach is
something they are able to handle, I don't think that is the main reason
people get hurt and defensive and angry (mostly at Sandra, sometimes at
some of the rest of us).
On Facebook, someone posted about the thoughts she was having because she
didn't want to have those thoughts and was asking how to get rid of them
(thinking the children were atrophying on the couch when they were watching
a lot of tv).
Sandra responded with a description of an experiment - there would be a
group where unschooling parents accept what their kids love, a group where
parents know about unschooling but think what the kids love is bad for
them, and a control group that knows nothing about unschooling. In
describing the second group, Sandra used that person's phrase about
thinking her kids were "atrophying on the couch."
I, myself, thought this was a new and brilliant way to make the point that
I hoped would be so clear and convincing to the person that she would be
able to replace her thoughts about her children and tv with new ideas about
what would be relationship-building for her family over the long haul. I
LOVED it. I seemed to make the point SO obvious and I thought, "Aha - what
a GREAT way to get someone to really "get" that the way they think about
their children will have far-reaching implications on what their
relationship will be like for their entire lifetimes."
But some people entirely missed the point, the person who'd posted
originally among them.
She thought Sandra used her words to mock her for the sake of humor.
She thought Sandra had insulted her and lumped her in the "bad parents"
group.
She didn't realize Sandra had given her a gift - a tool to use to change
her own thinking.
I think this is an issue of people not having a high enough level of
Gardner's "interpersonal intelligence" to understand the point of what
someone else says when it isn't prefaced with enough explanation. (And if
that Facebook poster is reading this, she's maybe angry and hurt again
because she thinks I'm insulting her and saying she's not smart.)
People are usually insulting and mocking to others because it builds up
their own ego - they knock someone else down to make themselves feel
superior. And people accuse Sandra of that. But I know her really well. She
has a perfectly healthy ego and isn't at all into belittling others to
build her's up at all. By speaking and writing publicly, in fact, she sets
herself up to BE criticized and bad-mouthed in pretty ego-crushing ways;
she could stay quiet and not have to bear it.
When people have a lot of interpersonal intelligence, they sometimes assume
others have more than they actually do. They don't realize how much they
are leaving unsaid that others don't fill in or understand.
I think this is sometimes (not always, by any means) the source of
misunderstanding of what Sandra offers. People have an "I asked for help
and she gave me insults," reaction when they don't get that she DID offer
help - really awesome amazing help incredibly insightful help.
Sandra doesn't typically start out by saying things like, "This might seem
insulting to you, but I don't mean it that way and I hope you'll take it in
the spirit intended. I'm going to lay out an experiment with three groups
of parents. I'm not saying you are a bad person and stuck in the bad
parents group, I'm describing what would happen if you don't get yourself
OUT of thinking the way you are, and it is great that that is what you are
trying to do. I'm hoping that if you think about this experiment, you'll
have a realization about the damage that kind of thinking can do to your
long-term relationships with your children. I'm hoping that your increased
awareness will help you put your relationships first so that you will focus
on that. Once you start focusing on finding the value in what your children
love, you will discover that those old thought patterns disappear -
replaced by enjoyment and even surprise at how much the kids are learning.
Now, I hope you find the following useful."
And on and on....
Sandra says what she has to say. It is direct and to the point. Because
we're talking about the most important relationships humans can have -
parent/child - imagined insults hurt a lot and emotions run high and people
are very reactive. Others feel defensive on behalf of those they believe
were insulted. They tell Sandra she should be nicer. But Sandra is already
spending a huge part of her life being "nice" - she does what she does
entirely out of the goodness of her heart and the sheer quantity of what
she offers is staggering. Telling her to be nicer makes no sense - from her
point of view it sounds like people are telling her that being nicer means
being less helpful - to soften what she says, to pat people on the back and
tell them what they're doing is just fine, that they are the parent and
know what's best for their child, etc.
The insights Sandra has to offer are amazing. I've been the beneficiary of
a lot of her help, and I've been around to watch what she's been able to
offer people for the past 16 or 17 years. Her ability to get to the heart
of a matter is a direct result of her having an extraordinarily high level
of that Gardner interpersonal intelligence. Therapists go to school for
years to try to develop that kind of ability. She shakes people up because
she gets so quickly and strongly right to the crux of the matter. I have,
myself, described feeling kind of an electric shock pass through me when I
first heard some of what Sandra had to say. I've felt my breath catch in my
throat. And, I have felt angry and hurt, too, by the way. But those were my
initial reactions and I used my intellect to get past my emotional
responses and I analyzed what she had said and I made discoveries about
myself and my family that significantly changed our lives for the better.
What we do on this list (and on the Radical Unschoolers Info facebook page)
is not easy-going casual sweet-sounding conversation. On this list, we have
introductory materials that everybody is asked to read before
participating. We try really hard to get the idea across that this may not
be a good place for those who are easily insulted or sensitive to having
their ideas laid out and dissected and critiqued.
There are many many people who love this stuff. It is, for me, like really
difficult therapy sessions - hard to get through, painful, but, at the end
of the process, life is SO much better and it is extremely worth it. I
wouldn't want people telling a therapist to go easier on me, be nicer, not
to dig so deeply, to avoid causing pain, and I don't want Sandra (or
others) to change, either, for the sake of those who don't want to do this
kind of work.
ALL that said - can we who do a lot of writing about unschooling improve
how we offer what we offer? ALL these years there has been nonstop
self-evaluation going on - Sandra is at the forefront of that, too. We talk
and talk about how we can do better, how we can help people, what will help
them understand more and faster, what we are learning, how we can improve
our own lives, and so on. We get defensive sometimes and don't respond at
our best. We have our blind spots. We have our own family issues and we
generally confess openly to those, and that's not easy either. Our families
have let themselves be held up under harsh lights to be questioned and
discussed. Not always easy at all. We have made our credibility and
integrity matters of public scrutiny and feel the pressure to be
scrupulously honest and clear at all times about absolutely everything.
Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living." That's an
incredibly strong statement - "not worth living" - and I think this kind of
discussion is only good for those who take that quite seriously. We are
trying to live deeply examined lives. That's what it is all about!
-pam sorooshian
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
Pam wrote:
***I think this is an issue of people not having a high enough level of
Gardner's "interpersonal intelligence" to understand the point of what
someone else says when it isn't prefaced with enough explanation. (And if
that Facebook poster is reading this, she's maybe angry and hurt again
because she thinks I'm insulting her and saying she's not smart.)***
I have a really good friend who totally gets this stuff! Our own code word for talking about that idea is, self awareness. When either of us use that, we are referring to the idea that a person can look internally and critically examine their own thoughts and ideas, they are comfortable enough with themselves and aware enough to do that. She does life coaching, so for her, when she has a client who is not at all self aware, what that person can take from a coaching session is going to be very minimal compared to someone who is more self aware and can look inwards to see and change things.
Sandra quoted me:
***What kind of relationship does a mom or dad have with their kids if they are really sensitive and defensive? If their child corrects them, will they respond that way to their child?***
and added:
***Another side benefit of me "letting them argue" is that there never was any "because I'm the mom." It was "Because I think this makes the best sense." So when they were teens, and now that they're young adults, they know if I suggest they tweak their thinking that it's not anything beyond my regard for their peace and progress.***
I had written in that long long facebook thread a little story about Chamille and her boyfriend that she just broke up with a month ago. I've had a lot of time to analyze their relationship and see it in action. That boy was never allowed to be right, NEVER. He grew up in a home where the parents were always right. His reaction was to never want to be wrong. It was, in a huge part, a conditioned reaction to someone who he felt was trying to say in any way shape or form that something he was doing or saying could potentially be wrong. In EVERY disagreement or pondering that Chamille brought to him, his reaction was ALWAYS, "You're wrong and you are hurting my feelings." I can't remember a single instance where it was something other than that. Even with very silly things like, "Could you please not keep your water glasses on that particular table because I'm worried it might spill and harm my computer?" His reaction would go like this,
"I didn't put that glass there.", even though he clearly did. So, if Chamille wanted to get a positive response at all, or the understanding that glasses of liquid shouldn't be kept in that location, she needed to first get him to see that he was actually leaving his glasses there.
It was a vicious cycle of crap. It left her incredibly frustrated that she couldn't have an open honest dialog with the person she loved, something that she has grown used to doing because that is how we live.
That's how it can be when talking to people in unschooling discussions who literally cannot see that the words they choose to describe their children, or the thoughts behind the ideas presented are harmful. If the person's response is, "no it's not, I'm not a mean person who thinks bad things about my kids, I love my kids and know them better than anyone else.", then the rest of the conversation isn't going anywhere until that person can see exactly what they are putting out there that others can see.
It gave me pause to wonder..... since it clearly is a trait that kids learn and are conditioned by, if the parent is doing that in public forums with other adults, are they doing that in their own families too? If that's true, and I've seen it to be that way, I think all of us would do a terrible disservice by NOT pointing it out.
I've seen kids run away from home because they can never be right, because the mom or dad or both must have it their way. If a person wants unschooling to work at ALL, it needs to stop. Unschooling simply can't unfold in that kind of environment. Even a tiny dose of poison will still poison someone, even if slower or not as much.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
***I think this is an issue of people not having a high enough level of
Gardner's "interpersonal intelligence" to understand the point of what
someone else says when it isn't prefaced with enough explanation. (And if
that Facebook poster is reading this, she's maybe angry and hurt again
because she thinks I'm insulting her and saying she's not smart.)***
I have a really good friend who totally gets this stuff! Our own code word for talking about that idea is, self awareness. When either of us use that, we are referring to the idea that a person can look internally and critically examine their own thoughts and ideas, they are comfortable enough with themselves and aware enough to do that. She does life coaching, so for her, when she has a client who is not at all self aware, what that person can take from a coaching session is going to be very minimal compared to someone who is more self aware and can look inwards to see and change things.
Sandra quoted me:
***What kind of relationship does a mom or dad have with their kids if they are really sensitive and defensive? If their child corrects them, will they respond that way to their child?***
and added:
***Another side benefit of me "letting them argue" is that there never was any "because I'm the mom." It was "Because I think this makes the best sense." So when they were teens, and now that they're young adults, they know if I suggest they tweak their thinking that it's not anything beyond my regard for their peace and progress.***
I had written in that long long facebook thread a little story about Chamille and her boyfriend that she just broke up with a month ago. I've had a lot of time to analyze their relationship and see it in action. That boy was never allowed to be right, NEVER. He grew up in a home where the parents were always right. His reaction was to never want to be wrong. It was, in a huge part, a conditioned reaction to someone who he felt was trying to say in any way shape or form that something he was doing or saying could potentially be wrong. In EVERY disagreement or pondering that Chamille brought to him, his reaction was ALWAYS, "You're wrong and you are hurting my feelings." I can't remember a single instance where it was something other than that. Even with very silly things like, "Could you please not keep your water glasses on that particular table because I'm worried it might spill and harm my computer?" His reaction would go like this,
"I didn't put that glass there.", even though he clearly did. So, if Chamille wanted to get a positive response at all, or the understanding that glasses of liquid shouldn't be kept in that location, she needed to first get him to see that he was actually leaving his glasses there.
It was a vicious cycle of crap. It left her incredibly frustrated that she couldn't have an open honest dialog with the person she loved, something that she has grown used to doing because that is how we live.
That's how it can be when talking to people in unschooling discussions who literally cannot see that the words they choose to describe their children, or the thoughts behind the ideas presented are harmful. If the person's response is, "no it's not, I'm not a mean person who thinks bad things about my kids, I love my kids and know them better than anyone else.", then the rest of the conversation isn't going anywhere until that person can see exactly what they are putting out there that others can see.
It gave me pause to wonder..... since it clearly is a trait that kids learn and are conditioned by, if the parent is doing that in public forums with other adults, are they doing that in their own families too? If that's true, and I've seen it to be that way, I think all of us would do a terrible disservice by NOT pointing it out.
I've seen kids run away from home because they can never be right, because the mom or dad or both must have it their way. If a person wants unschooling to work at ALL, it needs to stop. Unschooling simply can't unfold in that kind of environment. Even a tiny dose of poison will still poison someone, even if slower or not as much.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- In describing the second group, Sandra used that person's phrase about
thinking her kids were "atrophying on the couch."-=-
I used three people's terms from various discussions there over that day and the day before that.
I'm nearly 12 hours behind on e-mail. I have company and we were out and about, and then made dinner and Holly's boyfriend was here and then we watched a video and I realized I hadn't done a just-add-light. Marty came home all excited about having gotten to use his girlfriend's dad's industrial oven to heat-treat some steel armor bits (shoulders) he had made (and put linseed oil on it to try to turn the steel black). And I told him about our trip up the tram, and showed him photos, and he told me about the snow he had driven through to get home from Bernalillo, where his girlfriend lives.
I would like to read all the e-mail, but I probably should go to sleep instead.
-=-Our families
have let themselves be held up under harsh lights to be questioned and
discussed. Not always easy at all. We have made our credibility and
integrity matters of public scrutiny and feel the pressure to be
scrupulously honest and clear at all times about absolutely everything.-=-
I'm glad to have a life so exciting that I can't always keep up with e-mail. I don't mind sharing some of the details of that, because I know (not "I think", but I KNOW) that sharing my life honestly has helped some people. Learning from others who have shared their stories of progress, confusion and success is rewarding and relaxing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
thinking her kids were "atrophying on the couch."-=-
I used three people's terms from various discussions there over that day and the day before that.
I'm nearly 12 hours behind on e-mail. I have company and we were out and about, and then made dinner and Holly's boyfriend was here and then we watched a video and I realized I hadn't done a just-add-light. Marty came home all excited about having gotten to use his girlfriend's dad's industrial oven to heat-treat some steel armor bits (shoulders) he had made (and put linseed oil on it to try to turn the steel black). And I told him about our trip up the tram, and showed him photos, and he told me about the snow he had driven through to get home from Bernalillo, where his girlfriend lives.
I would like to read all the e-mail, but I probably should go to sleep instead.
-=-Our families
have let themselves be held up under harsh lights to be questioned and
discussed. Not always easy at all. We have made our credibility and
integrity matters of public scrutiny and feel the pressure to be
scrupulously honest and clear at all times about absolutely everything.-=-
I'm glad to have a life so exciting that I can't always keep up with e-mail. I don't mind sharing some of the details of that, because I know (not "I think", but I KNOW) that sharing my life honestly has helped some people. Learning from others who have shared their stories of progress, confusion and success is rewarding and relaxing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp
--- Her dedication and presence in online unschooling circles is like a golden cocoon around our children. ---
Sandra's coming to stay with my family for a few days at the end of June. When I told my children that she would be visiting, I said 'you know the mama that gives me good ideas and helps me think good thoughts? She's coming here to visit'.
When my children asked which one (there are so many helpful people on this list : ), I specified Sandra:
'Remember when I was a bit afraid to get you a Wii? She was one of the people that helped me think about it and see that it was a good idea and that maybe I should get you one sooner, rather than later.'
'Oh, we like her!' they exclaimed.
I like that I have someone that is on my children's side when I have blind spots.
Rippy
(Gianluca 7, Gisele 5)
p.s. I never posted about my Wii concerns, but was encouraged by all of you who dedicate time to write about radical unschooling. I think all the experienced unschooling moms (and Bob) that write regularly on Always Learning are like a golden cocoon around our children.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra's coming to stay with my family for a few days at the end of June. When I told my children that she would be visiting, I said 'you know the mama that gives me good ideas and helps me think good thoughts? She's coming here to visit'.
When my children asked which one (there are so many helpful people on this list : ), I specified Sandra:
'Remember when I was a bit afraid to get you a Wii? She was one of the people that helped me think about it and see that it was a good idea and that maybe I should get you one sooner, rather than later.'
'Oh, we like her!' they exclaimed.
I like that I have someone that is on my children's side when I have blind spots.
Rippy
(Gianluca 7, Gisele 5)
p.s. I never posted about my Wii concerns, but was encouraged by all of you who dedicate time to write about radical unschooling. I think all the experienced unschooling moms (and Bob) that write regularly on Always Learning are like a golden cocoon around our children.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]