Friends who hurt
Tamara Shand
My four year old daughter has a three year old friend whom she is very passionate about. She is also very attached to the boy's father who we meet for playdates once a week. I will call the boy James. James recently hurt Ella and I feel they could do with some distance but Ella is determined to continue this friendship.
The Background:
Occasionally the children will squabble over sharing a toy but generally the play is in woodlands, parks, soft play centres or the ice rink so fighting is not generally an issue. Occasionally James will hit out at Ella (or others) seemingly with no cause. All of a sudden he will just come over to her and wap her or push her - usually on the arm. His father mentioned that James sometimes did this to his mother to get her attention. The father also repeatedly tells the boy not to hit and I make a point of being close by to diffuse situations or offer my hands to James for boxing. Ella also tells James not to hit her - not loudly but clearly. This all seemed to be manageable until the last month.
In the last few weeks the lashing out seems to be escalating culminating in a dangerous situation for my daughter. Two weeks ago at the ice rink, James, Ella and I were standing together off-ice when Ella lost her balance and fell. James kicked her in the back with his ice skate. It was clearly intentional. She cried. I sat us all down, held Ella, held James with the other arm and pointed out to James that Ella was hurt by his actions. I asked him to put his fingers on my ice skate to feel how hard they are. He commented that they were soft and then tried to distract me with a piece of lint. He seemed uncomfortable with the intensity of emotion in front of him and ready for Ella to shift to 'happy'. It wasn't a hard kick and Ella was not hurt. In fact, after she had a good cry she bounced right back up ready to play with James again - all forgiven.
The following week - two days ago - I came to our regular ice skating meet equipped with my 'I Call My Hand Gentle' book (which we all read together) and I stayed very close to Ella's side throughout the session. It is a big rink so we're not always with James - sometimes Ella skates off on her own, chats with instructors or with other parents. At one point, James the three of us were together - James, Ella and I. James kicked Ella leaving a very small nick just below her clavicle. I feel lucky it wasn't anything more than a little nick but given that I couldn't stop it when they were right beside me I will not be allowing them to skate together for the foreseeable future.
The problem:
After Ella had had a good long wail and recovered from the shock of being kicked with an ice skate she wanted to go and find James and his father. I explained they were probably taking some time to cool down. After some time James and his father appeared at the side of the rink and Ella begged them to stay. Not in a sad pleading way but in a friendly, inviting way. I think she really forgave it all. I am not feeling so forgiving and I am setting up a conference call with James' parents to discuss how we are going to deal with the hitting moving forward because after the ice skating incidents I feel zero tolerance for inexplicable lashing out. This kid is not getting the point that it is not okay to hit Ella. And, by continuing to stay and play I feel we are reinforcing that all he has to do is say the words sorry and he can do it again and again and again.
James' parents are suggesting that he is lactose and soy intolerant and even though they limit these things in his diet somehow it seems to sneak in, cause him pain, and cause him to lash out. I think that's a total cop out. I think the father is pushing James' into situations that are more than James can handle. James had said he had had enough of skating but they were still on the rink. I now understand so clearly the advice I read on these lists about avoiding trigger situations for your kids until they are developmentally ready to handle it. So, I feel for this kid. It was the first time he looked like he felt genuinely sorry when he said the words. I also like the family but things are getting worse - not better.
I don't know what to do about Ella's impassioned plea to keep seeing this family? After the ice skating incident Ella was running around with James and I did not want to be there any more. I literally had to chase her, pick her up and whisper promises of ice lollies and easter eggs as she continued to struggle to stay and play as though nothing had happened. Today she was asking when she would go back to play at James' house or when he might come to ours. It was casually asked. She knows that her father and I are upset about the latest ice skating incident but she seems pretty cool and collected about it all.
Thoughts, wisdom, advice on how to handle this would be so gratefully received.
Thank you,
Tamara
The Background:
Occasionally the children will squabble over sharing a toy but generally the play is in woodlands, parks, soft play centres or the ice rink so fighting is not generally an issue. Occasionally James will hit out at Ella (or others) seemingly with no cause. All of a sudden he will just come over to her and wap her or push her - usually on the arm. His father mentioned that James sometimes did this to his mother to get her attention. The father also repeatedly tells the boy not to hit and I make a point of being close by to diffuse situations or offer my hands to James for boxing. Ella also tells James not to hit her - not loudly but clearly. This all seemed to be manageable until the last month.
In the last few weeks the lashing out seems to be escalating culminating in a dangerous situation for my daughter. Two weeks ago at the ice rink, James, Ella and I were standing together off-ice when Ella lost her balance and fell. James kicked her in the back with his ice skate. It was clearly intentional. She cried. I sat us all down, held Ella, held James with the other arm and pointed out to James that Ella was hurt by his actions. I asked him to put his fingers on my ice skate to feel how hard they are. He commented that they were soft and then tried to distract me with a piece of lint. He seemed uncomfortable with the intensity of emotion in front of him and ready for Ella to shift to 'happy'. It wasn't a hard kick and Ella was not hurt. In fact, after she had a good cry she bounced right back up ready to play with James again - all forgiven.
The following week - two days ago - I came to our regular ice skating meet equipped with my 'I Call My Hand Gentle' book (which we all read together) and I stayed very close to Ella's side throughout the session. It is a big rink so we're not always with James - sometimes Ella skates off on her own, chats with instructors or with other parents. At one point, James the three of us were together - James, Ella and I. James kicked Ella leaving a very small nick just below her clavicle. I feel lucky it wasn't anything more than a little nick but given that I couldn't stop it when they were right beside me I will not be allowing them to skate together for the foreseeable future.
The problem:
After Ella had had a good long wail and recovered from the shock of being kicked with an ice skate she wanted to go and find James and his father. I explained they were probably taking some time to cool down. After some time James and his father appeared at the side of the rink and Ella begged them to stay. Not in a sad pleading way but in a friendly, inviting way. I think she really forgave it all. I am not feeling so forgiving and I am setting up a conference call with James' parents to discuss how we are going to deal with the hitting moving forward because after the ice skating incidents I feel zero tolerance for inexplicable lashing out. This kid is not getting the point that it is not okay to hit Ella. And, by continuing to stay and play I feel we are reinforcing that all he has to do is say the words sorry and he can do it again and again and again.
James' parents are suggesting that he is lactose and soy intolerant and even though they limit these things in his diet somehow it seems to sneak in, cause him pain, and cause him to lash out. I think that's a total cop out. I think the father is pushing James' into situations that are more than James can handle. James had said he had had enough of skating but they were still on the rink. I now understand so clearly the advice I read on these lists about avoiding trigger situations for your kids until they are developmentally ready to handle it. So, I feel for this kid. It was the first time he looked like he felt genuinely sorry when he said the words. I also like the family but things are getting worse - not better.
I don't know what to do about Ella's impassioned plea to keep seeing this family? After the ice skating incident Ella was running around with James and I did not want to be there any more. I literally had to chase her, pick her up and whisper promises of ice lollies and easter eggs as she continued to struggle to stay and play as though nothing had happened. Today she was asking when she would go back to play at James' house or when he might come to ours. It was casually asked. She knows that her father and I are upset about the latest ice skating incident but she seems pretty cool and collected about it all.
Thoughts, wisdom, advice on how to handle this would be so gratefully received.
Thank you,
Tamara
Sandra Dodd
-=-My four year old daughter has a three year old friend whom she is very passionate about. -=-
He's only three.
Nobody stays three longer than a year. :-)
Find safer things for them to do where they don't have steel blades on their feet. There are LOTS of gentler, safer things to do than ice skating.
Maybe you could find something kind of rough for them to play--ball crawl, foam bats. Little boys sometimes DO need to play more roughly than girls. (Not all boys, not all girls, but you're describing a boy experimenting with strength and power, and kids SHOULD play with those things, in ways that don't hurt others.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
He's only three.
Nobody stays three longer than a year. :-)
Find safer things for them to do where they don't have steel blades on their feet. There are LOTS of gentler, safer things to do than ice skating.
Maybe you could find something kind of rough for them to play--ball crawl, foam bats. Little boys sometimes DO need to play more roughly than girls. (Not all boys, not all girls, but you're describing a boy experimenting with strength and power, and kids SHOULD play with those things, in ways that don't hurt others.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
I agree with Sandra. While I was reading this post my son was happily playing with one of his best friends upstairs. They have been friends since they were 4 and 3. They are now 9 and 8 and Frankie spends many days with us when he is not in school.
They get along great. But when they were younger they sometimes hit each other, up to about 3 year ago I would say.
Maybe Frankie hit MD more recently as he is younger but by them MD was older and able to walk away. He was usually the one who hit more anyways. He also used to hit Gigi, who is much younger but today he is a little gentleman towards her. They all play together really well even when they play pretend fighting!
It did not happen a lot but it did happen so I stayed closed. I talked to them and tried to avoid situations that would make one or the other
get frustrated and lash out. Stay close and being proactive was the key to keep them safe.
They are still best friends today.
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Friends who hurt
-=-My four year old daughter has a three year old friend whom she is very passionate about. -=-
He's only three.
Nobody stays three longer than a year. :-)
Find safer things for them to do where they don't have steel blades on their feet. There are LOTS of gentler, safer things to do than ice skating.
Maybe you could find something kind of rough for them to play--ball crawl, foam bats. Little boys sometimes DO need to play more roughly than girls. (Not all boys, not all girls, but you're describing a boy experimenting with strength and power, and kids SHOULD play with those things, in ways that don't hurt others.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
They get along great. But when they were younger they sometimes hit each other, up to about 3 year ago I would say.
Maybe Frankie hit MD more recently as he is younger but by them MD was older and able to walk away. He was usually the one who hit more anyways. He also used to hit Gigi, who is much younger but today he is a little gentleman towards her. They all play together really well even when they play pretend fighting!
It did not happen a lot but it did happen so I stayed closed. I talked to them and tried to avoid situations that would make one or the other
get frustrated and lash out. Stay close and being proactive was the key to keep them safe.
They are still best friends today.
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, January 27, 2012 6:42 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Friends who hurt
-=-My four year old daughter has a three year old friend whom she is very passionate about. -=-
He's only three.
Nobody stays three longer than a year. :-)
Find safer things for them to do where they don't have steel blades on their feet. There are LOTS of gentler, safer things to do than ice skating.
Maybe you could find something kind of rough for them to play--ball crawl, foam bats. Little boys sometimes DO need to play more roughly than girls. (Not all boys, not all girls, but you're describing a boy experimenting with strength and power, and kids SHOULD play with those things, in ways that don't hurt others.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
> They are still best friends today.We have had the same experience, although reversed. My son had long adored his little friend who is a girl his age. They have been friends since they both were two, and lived in the same town until they were nearly five. Around the age of three my son's friend would get very aggressive toward Ethan. At first, I thought that I didn't want to have anything to do with her for a while, but, Ethan wanted to play with her, so her father and I learned to see the signs that she had reached her limit. We stayed present at all times, and when it was beginning to look like she was done, we would quickly say goodbye. Sometimes she was hungry, but more often she just needed some quiet time. We have lived in different towns for a few years now, but she still sends Ethan cards and recently sent him the sweetest happy birthday video message via email. I'm so grateful we did not just walk away in frustration, but chose, instead, to make our time together successful for everyone.
Tamara Shand
Thank you for the stories. It is heartening to hear of children who got past this stage.
<<Little boys sometimes DO need to play more roughly than girls.>>
Ella likes roughhousing, tumbling and very physical play so that could work - off the ice of course! We have taken the kids on woodland walks and to soft play and that works very well so we'll stick with that. Maybe buy some foam swords. I haven't actively encouraged them to play fight but maybe that's something I could learn to do. So, off ice I think I can handle the hitting. Up until the recent incidents with the ice skates it all feelt developmentally normal, no one was getting seriously hurt and it was manageable.
Separate to the friendship I will have to figure out skating. We could just give it up though it has been the centre of our week for the last 3-4 months. The day we go to the ice rink is a toddler drop in where there are a handful of familiar people who Ella (and James) chat and play with. There are also some very friendly roaming instructors. It has been great for Ella who can be sensory seeking and needs more physical input than I feel I can give her in our small city apartment. So it has ticked the boxes of meeting social and physical needs. We could skate at other times but then we won't know anyone there and Ella misses out on the nice group activity. I don't want to give it up but I also don't want Ella to be on the ice with James. She will want to go to him or his dad. So we'll have to figure that one out.
Thanks all for listening and sharing your thoughts.
All best,
Tamara
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
<<Little boys sometimes DO need to play more roughly than girls.>>
Ella likes roughhousing, tumbling and very physical play so that could work - off the ice of course! We have taken the kids on woodland walks and to soft play and that works very well so we'll stick with that. Maybe buy some foam swords. I haven't actively encouraged them to play fight but maybe that's something I could learn to do. So, off ice I think I can handle the hitting. Up until the recent incidents with the ice skates it all feelt developmentally normal, no one was getting seriously hurt and it was manageable.
Separate to the friendship I will have to figure out skating. We could just give it up though it has been the centre of our week for the last 3-4 months. The day we go to the ice rink is a toddler drop in where there are a handful of familiar people who Ella (and James) chat and play with. There are also some very friendly roaming instructors. It has been great for Ella who can be sensory seeking and needs more physical input than I feel I can give her in our small city apartment. So it has ticked the boxes of meeting social and physical needs. We could skate at other times but then we won't know anyone there and Ella misses out on the nice group activity. I don't want to give it up but I also don't want Ella to be on the ice with James. She will want to go to him or his dad. So we'll have to figure that one out.
Thanks all for listening and sharing your thoughts.
All best,
Tamara
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Tamara
<<experimenting with strength and power, and kids SHOULD play with those things>>
What are some other games, activities, things I can introduce to these two high energy, climbing, bumping, rolling kids that will allow them to play with strength and power? They are already chasing, climbing trees, breaking ice with sticks, rolling around the ground together quasi-wrestling.
I have played power games with my daughter - letting her tell me what to do, etc - but I don't know how I would play a power game with someone else's child. Ella has super heroes and princesses but superhero stories might be too old for James and he doesn't seem like a princess kind of guy. Maybe knights?
I am sorry to be dense...I was never encouraged to play with strength and power growing up I was encouraged to be meek, quiet and sedentary. So, I feel a little out of my depth hence what may seem like a silly question.
What are some other games, activities, things I can introduce to these two high energy, climbing, bumping, rolling kids that will allow them to play with strength and power? They are already chasing, climbing trees, breaking ice with sticks, rolling around the ground together quasi-wrestling.
I have played power games with my daughter - letting her tell me what to do, etc - but I don't know how I would play a power game with someone else's child. Ella has super heroes and princesses but superhero stories might be too old for James and he doesn't seem like a princess kind of guy. Maybe knights?
I am sorry to be dense...I was never encouraged to play with strength and power growing up I was encouraged to be meek, quiet and sedentary. So, I feel a little out of my depth hence what may seem like a silly question.
Vicki Dennis
Perhaps you and James' dad can agree to alternate weeks at the toddler drop
in?
Especially if you are consciously adding other outings where they can be
together.
So that it is clear you are restricting them from being on the ice together
(temporarily), not restricting them from being together at all.
vicki
in?
Especially if you are consciously adding other outings where they can be
together.
So that it is clear you are restricting them from being on the ice together
(temporarily), not restricting them from being together at all.
vicki
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 2:16 AM, Tamara Shand <tamara@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> Thank you for the stories. It is heartening to hear of children who got
> past this stage.
>
> <<Little boys sometimes DO need to play more roughly than girls.>>
>
> Ella likes roughhousing, tumbling and very physical play so that could
> work - off the ice of course! We have taken the kids on woodland walks and
> to soft play and that works very well so we'll stick with that. Maybe buy
> some foam swords. I haven't actively encouraged them to play fight but
> maybe that's something I could learn to do. So, off ice I think I can
> handle the hitting. Up until the recent incidents with the ice skates it
> all feelt developmentally normal, no one was getting seriously hurt and it
> was manageable.
>
> Separate to the friendship I will have to figure out skating. We could
> just give it up though it has been the centre of our week for the last 3-4
> months. The day we go to the ice rink is a toddler drop in where there are
> a handful of familiar people who Ella (and James) chat and play with. There
> are also some very friendly roaming instructors. It has been great for Ella
> who can be sensory seeking and needs more physical input than I feel I can
> give her in our small city apartment. So it has ticked the boxes of meeting
> social and physical needs. We could skate at other times but then we won't
> know anyone there and Ella misses out on the nice group activity. I don't
> want to give it up but I also don't want Ella to be on the ice with James.
> She will want to go to him or his dad. So we'll have to figure that one
> out.
>
> Thanks all for listening and sharing your thoughts.
>
> All best,
>
> Tamara
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Vanessa Orsborn
Hi Tamara,
I agree with the other posts, Tallulah has had friends that have lashed out kicked etc, it has been a phase that has passed and they are still best friends. It never bothered her and I just made sure I was extra close when we hung out. To be honest I think what made the situation safe for my daughter was the mother was vigilant to not to leave her sons side during our playdates. Tallulah felt safe and protected by the mother.
Is the father on hands enough do you think?
Vanessa
Sent from my iPhone
I agree with the other posts, Tallulah has had friends that have lashed out kicked etc, it has been a phase that has passed and they are still best friends. It never bothered her and I just made sure I was extra close when we hung out. To be honest I think what made the situation safe for my daughter was the mother was vigilant to not to leave her sons side during our playdates. Tallulah felt safe and protected by the mother.
Is the father on hands enough do you think?
Vanessa
Sent from my iPhone
On 28 Jan 2012, at 08:16, Tamara Shand <tamara@...> wrote:
> Thank you for the stories. It is heartening to hear of children who got past this stage.
>
> <<Little boys sometimes DO need to play more roughly than girls.>>
>
> Ella likes roughhousing, tumbling and very physical play so that could work - off the ice of course! We have taken the kids on woodland walks and to soft play and that works very well so we'll stick with that. Maybe buy some foam swords. I haven't actively encouraged them to play fight but maybe that's something I could learn to do. So, off ice I think I can handle the hitting. Up until the recent incidents with the ice skates it all feelt developmentally normal, no one was getting seriously hurt and it was manageable.
>
> Separate to the friendship I will have to figure out skating. We could just give it up though it has been the centre of our week for the last 3-4 months. The day we go to the ice rink is a toddler drop in where there are a handful of familiar people who Ella (and James) chat and play with. There are also some very friendly roaming instructors. It has been great for Ella who can be sensory seeking and needs more physical input than I feel I can give her in our small city apartment. So it has ticked the boxes of meeting social and physical needs. We could skate at other times but then we won't know anyone there and Ella misses out on the nice group activity. I don't want to give it up but I also don't want Ella to be on the ice with James. She will want to go to him or his dad. So we'll have to figure that one out.
>
> Thanks all for listening and sharing your thoughts.
>
> All best,
>
> Tamara
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I don't want to give it up but I also don't want Ella to be on the ice with James. She will want to go to him or his dad. So we'll have to figure that one out. -=-
Say clearly to James the kid "Do not touch any other person with your skates." Make eye contact when you say it. Don't make it a question or an option. Use your real authority as the daughter of someone he has skate-poked, and as an adult bigger than he is.
His parents can't object to that. If they had made it clear themselves, there would be nothing for you to need to say.
And if she's going over where he is, go with her, in a friendly way, not in a hostile way, and every single day those kids get older.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Say clearly to James the kid "Do not touch any other person with your skates." Make eye contact when you say it. Don't make it a question or an option. Use your real authority as the daughter of someone he has skate-poked, and as an adult bigger than he is.
His parents can't object to that. If they had made it clear themselves, there would be nothing for you to need to say.
And if she's going over where he is, go with her, in a friendly way, not in a hostile way, and every single day those kids get older.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am sorry to be dense...I was never encouraged to play with strength and power growing up I was encouraged to be meek, quiet and sedentary. So, I feel a little out of my depth hence what may seem like a silly question. -=-
Lava monster (not touching the ground, on swingsets/playground equipment, or furniture), or any monster/chase/tag/catch games.
Races.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lava monster (not touching the ground, on swingsets/playground equipment, or furniture), or any monster/chase/tag/catch games.
Races.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rippy and Graham Dusseldorp
--- What are some other games, activities, things I can introduce to these two high energy, climbing, bumping, rolling kids that will allow them to play with strength and power? ---
Obstacle courses. There's lots on youtube like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGcvF812RFc
The children might enjoy watching a few different ones together on youtube and designing their own.
Rippy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Obstacle courses. There's lots on youtube like this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGcvF812RFc
The children might enjoy watching a few different ones together on youtube and designing their own.
Rippy
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
california vs new mexico.
If it is winter where you live and you need this kind of game to be played
indoors -- put rows of sheets of paper across a room or throughout the
house - just far enough apart that it is a little hard to get from one to
another without touching the ground.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Lava monster (not touching the ground, on swingsets/playground equipment,Shark - my kids called this "shark," not lava monster <G>. That's southern
> or furniture), or any monster/chase/tag/catch games.
>
california vs new mexico.
If it is winter where you live and you need this kind of game to be played
indoors -- put rows of sheets of paper across a room or throughout the
house - just far enough apart that it is a little hard to get from one to
another without touching the ground.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
I haven't read all the replies yet, but I'll repeat an important point: he's only three.
If your daughter understands things like "gentle hands" and can be gentle and sweet without reminders on a regular basis, then know that's something about your daughter's personality and development. Lots and lots of 4yos still need a lot of help being gentle, much less 3yos. It's not reasonable to expect a 3yo to have much in the way of perspective and empathy.
Keep in mind that "intentional" for a 3yo means something a little different than for an adult. A 3yo is still learning a whole lot about cause and effect. They're fascinated by "what happens when...?" In that sense, it might have been intentional, but it probably wasn't Personal in anything like an adult sense.
I think you spent far, far too long trying to explain. Cuddle your daughter and say "don't do that, it hurts" and drop it - anything more is likely to confuse the issue for him. He wants to know what happens next! So what happened next was "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah." It won't be as helpful to him in terms of learning about the world as a solid, firm "Don't do that."
You could have left - said "sounds like the kids are done" and packed it in. If he's hitting etc more when he's tired and hungry, bring snacks and things to do that allow the kids to take breaks. Is there a cafe area at the rink? Bring a thermos of hot coco and a bag of mini marshmallows, a bunch of coloring books and a game (or quarters if they have arcade games) and encourage the kids to spend some time mellowing out. You can't change other people's parenting, but you Can be more proactive yourself and set your daughter up for better chances of success with her friend. To do that, it's up to you to stop seeing this boy as bad and see him as a person trying to communicate his needs.
As someone who has energetic kids myself, one of whom was fairly explosive, I'd suggest the boy may need more bigger boys he can roughhouse. That may mean he's not a good playmate for your daughter if she (or you) can't handle the rough stuff. Some kids need to play harder than others - and mixing a rough kid with a gentle kid can be a nightmare for everyone, leaving the rough kid feeling like a monster and the gentle kid feeling abused.
But at the same time, it's worth considering if the problem is that you don't know what rough play looks like and how to deal with the minor hurts that come with the territory. Have you tried leaving your daughter with this boy and his dad for an hour and seeing what happens?
Be more proactive about meeting the boy's needs and more easy-going about the fact that kids sometimes get bumps and scrapes from one another. At the same time, listen to your daughter. If she gets over her hurts easily, don't project your own fears and "what ifs" onto her. If she wants to leave, leave. If she wants a break, take a break and let her get back into the fun.
If you're concerned she wants to play with this kid because he's her Only friend - you didn't say in your post, but that's an issue sometimes - look for other friends so she has options. If the options are "no kids to play with" on the one hand and "boy who's so-so and sometimes hits me" she may pick him as the better of those two options - so make sure she's not stuck in that situation.
And if it turns out they can't play together for awhile, if she's Really getting hurt, not just little things, then commiserate over the fact that sometimes kids want things they aren't ready for.
---Meredith
If your daughter understands things like "gentle hands" and can be gentle and sweet without reminders on a regular basis, then know that's something about your daughter's personality and development. Lots and lots of 4yos still need a lot of help being gentle, much less 3yos. It's not reasonable to expect a 3yo to have much in the way of perspective and empathy.
>>James kicked her in the back with his ice skate. It was clearly intentional.***************
Keep in mind that "intentional" for a 3yo means something a little different than for an adult. A 3yo is still learning a whole lot about cause and effect. They're fascinated by "what happens when...?" In that sense, it might have been intentional, but it probably wasn't Personal in anything like an adult sense.
>> I sat us all down, held Ella, held James with the other arm and pointed out to James that Ella was hurt by his actions.****************
I think you spent far, far too long trying to explain. Cuddle your daughter and say "don't do that, it hurts" and drop it - anything more is likely to confuse the issue for him. He wants to know what happens next! So what happened next was "blah blah blah blah blah blah blah." It won't be as helpful to him in terms of learning about the world as a solid, firm "Don't do that."
> In the last few weeks the lashing out seems to be escalatingNaming it "lashing out" can get in the way of seeing the needs behind the action. Is he angry and frustrated when he does it? A kid who goes on the offensive when he's upset is lashing out. A kid who hits too hard when he's playing, or curious, or overstimulated, or trying to get your attention isn't lashing out - those are different issues.
> James had said he had had enough of skating but they were still on the rink.***************
You could have left - said "sounds like the kids are done" and packed it in. If he's hitting etc more when he's tired and hungry, bring snacks and things to do that allow the kids to take breaks. Is there a cafe area at the rink? Bring a thermos of hot coco and a bag of mini marshmallows, a bunch of coloring books and a game (or quarters if they have arcade games) and encourage the kids to spend some time mellowing out. You can't change other people's parenting, but you Can be more proactive yourself and set your daughter up for better chances of success with her friend. To do that, it's up to you to stop seeing this boy as bad and see him as a person trying to communicate his needs.
>>It wasn't a hard kick and Ella was not hurt.and
>> James kicked Ella leaving a very small nick just below her clavicle.If she wasn't hurt - or barely - I'd say you could be over-reacting in a way that's common of mothers who don't have sons and didn't grow up with casually rowdy play. Typically, boys roughhouse more than girls. I have a girl with a lot of energy who likes to roughhouse, so I know it's not some kind of hard and fast rule that only boys play rough ;) but even rough and tumble girls develop a slightly different set of reactions to rough play than boys. Mo's more likely to go away and cry when she's hurt (rough play means occasional hurts) and then return to the play. Her guy friends are more likely to hit back first, and then cry.
As someone who has energetic kids myself, one of whom was fairly explosive, I'd suggest the boy may need more bigger boys he can roughhouse. That may mean he's not a good playmate for your daughter if she (or you) can't handle the rough stuff. Some kids need to play harder than others - and mixing a rough kid with a gentle kid can be a nightmare for everyone, leaving the rough kid feeling like a monster and the gentle kid feeling abused.
But at the same time, it's worth considering if the problem is that you don't know what rough play looks like and how to deal with the minor hurts that come with the territory. Have you tried leaving your daughter with this boy and his dad for an hour and seeing what happens?
> I don't know what to do about Ella's impassioned plea to keep seeing this family?*****************
Be more proactive about meeting the boy's needs and more easy-going about the fact that kids sometimes get bumps and scrapes from one another. At the same time, listen to your daughter. If she gets over her hurts easily, don't project your own fears and "what ifs" onto her. If she wants to leave, leave. If she wants a break, take a break and let her get back into the fun.
If you're concerned she wants to play with this kid because he's her Only friend - you didn't say in your post, but that's an issue sometimes - look for other friends so she has options. If the options are "no kids to play with" on the one hand and "boy who's so-so and sometimes hits me" she may pick him as the better of those two options - so make sure she's not stuck in that situation.
And if it turns out they can't play together for awhile, if she's Really getting hurt, not just little things, then commiserate over the fact that sometimes kids want things they aren't ready for.
---Meredith
Meredith
"Tamara" <tamara@...> wrote:
Build forts and mazes and caves in the house with sofa cushions and blankets for them to crawl through, build piles of cushions to climb and roll down and jump around on. Create a simple balance beam for them to walk on. Look into getting some of those balls with the handles on top so they can bounce around the house.
Think about party games, too - balloon stomp can be great fun for a pair of little kids, or offer to tie them together like in a 3-legged race. Or get some big pillowcases so they can hop around like a sack race (pretend they're kangaroos, maybe or giant bunnies). Play blind-man's bluff with them and simon-says and red-light, green-light. Twister is a blast with little kids - and there's a new kind of Twister with rings, too. Even games like pin the tail can be fun with just a couple kids, or make a simple pinata by taping up a cardboard box, fill it with toys you have around the house and let them whack it to smithereens.
Here are a couple links to sites with assortments of kid games - some are better for groups than pairs, but they might give you ideas of things to suggest:
http://www.gameskidsplay.net/
http://www.best-children-games.com/fun-indoor-games.html
---Meredith
>> What are some other games, activities, things I can introduce to these two high energy, climbing, bumping, rolling kids that will allow them to play with strength and power? They are already chasing, climbing trees, breaking ice with sticks, rolling around the ground together quasi-wrestling.******************
Build forts and mazes and caves in the house with sofa cushions and blankets for them to crawl through, build piles of cushions to climb and roll down and jump around on. Create a simple balance beam for them to walk on. Look into getting some of those balls with the handles on top so they can bounce around the house.
Think about party games, too - balloon stomp can be great fun for a pair of little kids, or offer to tie them together like in a 3-legged race. Or get some big pillowcases so they can hop around like a sack race (pretend they're kangaroos, maybe or giant bunnies). Play blind-man's bluff with them and simon-says and red-light, green-light. Twister is a blast with little kids - and there's a new kind of Twister with rings, too. Even games like pin the tail can be fun with just a couple kids, or make a simple pinata by taping up a cardboard box, fill it with toys you have around the house and let them whack it to smithereens.
Here are a couple links to sites with assortments of kid games - some are better for groups than pairs, but they might give you ideas of things to suggest:
http://www.gameskidsplay.net/
http://www.best-children-games.com/fun-indoor-games.html
---Meredith
Rinelle
> I sat us all down, held Ella, held James with the other arm and pointedMy daughter is very like this. If she accidentally hurts someone, and we
> out to James that Ella was hurt by his actions. I > asked him to put his
> fingers on my ice skate to feel how hard they are. He commented that they
> were soft and then
> tried to distract me with a piece of lint. He seemed uncomfortable with
> the intensity of emotion in front of him and
> ready for Ella to shift to 'happy'.
make a big deal of it, talking too much, and trying to get her to understand
or feel how the other person feels, she will shut down, and get defensive.
What we are saying is making her feel guilty, and she immediately does
anything she can to not feel guilty.
On the other hand, if I say in a normal voice "Ow, that hurt", she will
immediately come over to check that I'm OK, kiss the hurt better etc.
I think that sometimes parents try to talk a child into understanding. They
continue to talk, as though expecting the child to say "Oh, I understand
now, I won't do that in the future." And most children aren't capable of
that yet. If they do say something like that, it's usually a learned
reaction, not one with any real understanding behind it.
I find that a few simple words really is much better, and it gives my
daughter the chance to find her own way to make things better. Slowly, over
a lot of time, she's managing to make better choices in the moment. But it
does take time.
Tamara
D-H Family
My son loved to whack at trees with bats, axes (we had several acres),
pushing over small trees with his hands, etc. Whacking at rotting tree
stumps. He and a friend would sometimes tie a very large stuffed animal up
and throw it over a branch and whack at it with sticks looked gruesome but
they loved it. My son loved turning over a cardboard box and stabbing it
repeatedly with a butter knife. Throwing raw or hard boiled eggs at trees
(helps to have a big yard with lots of trees!). Throwing water balloons at
trees, house, etc. Thumbtacking blown up balloons to a piece of wood and
throwing darts at them like in the carnivals. Any kind of bouncing
trampolines at home or at a facility. Setting up an obstacle course in your
house or yard. Hide plastic easter eggs inside or outside to find (with or
without treats inside them). Set up a scavenger hunt with clues to each
next step (can be drawn instead of written). The Whack the Gopher games
they have at some childrens places there is a home version in the stores
I think. Throwing rocks into a river or lake. Learning to skip rocks
might need to be a lot older I still cant do it! Going to the beach,
digging in the sand. Swimming or playing in water. Making and whacking
piñatas. My sons all time favorite was every year on his birthday, his dad
would dress up in rain gear and let all the kids chase him with water
balloons, squirt guns and sometimes a hose, while he was the screaming,
yelling, moving target. They loved it so much!
Good luck! You will have lots of fun!
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Tamara
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 2:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Friends who hurt
<<experimenting with strength and power, and kids SHOULD play with those
things>>
What are some other games, activities, things I can introduce to these two
high energy, climbing, bumping, rolling kids that will allow them to play
with strength and power? They are already chasing, climbing trees, breaking
ice with sticks, rolling around the ground together quasi-wrestling.
I have played power games with my daughter - letting her tell me what to do,
etc - but I don't know how I would play a power game with someone else's
child. Ella has super heroes and princesses but superhero stories might be
too old for James and he doesn't seem like a princess kind of guy. Maybe
knights?
I am sorry to be dense...I was never encouraged to play with strength and
power growing up I was encouraged to be meek, quiet and sedentary. So, I
feel a little out of my depth hence what may seem like a silly question.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
pushing over small trees with his hands, etc. Whacking at rotting tree
stumps. He and a friend would sometimes tie a very large stuffed animal up
and throw it over a branch and whack at it with sticks looked gruesome but
they loved it. My son loved turning over a cardboard box and stabbing it
repeatedly with a butter knife. Throwing raw or hard boiled eggs at trees
(helps to have a big yard with lots of trees!). Throwing water balloons at
trees, house, etc. Thumbtacking blown up balloons to a piece of wood and
throwing darts at them like in the carnivals. Any kind of bouncing
trampolines at home or at a facility. Setting up an obstacle course in your
house or yard. Hide plastic easter eggs inside or outside to find (with or
without treats inside them). Set up a scavenger hunt with clues to each
next step (can be drawn instead of written). The Whack the Gopher games
they have at some childrens places there is a home version in the stores
I think. Throwing rocks into a river or lake. Learning to skip rocks
might need to be a lot older I still cant do it! Going to the beach,
digging in the sand. Swimming or playing in water. Making and whacking
piñatas. My sons all time favorite was every year on his birthday, his dad
would dress up in rain gear and let all the kids chase him with water
balloons, squirt guns and sometimes a hose, while he was the screaming,
yelling, moving target. They loved it so much!
Good luck! You will have lots of fun!
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
On Behalf Of Tamara
Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 2:57 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: Friends who hurt
<<experimenting with strength and power, and kids SHOULD play with those
things>>
What are some other games, activities, things I can introduce to these two
high energy, climbing, bumping, rolling kids that will allow them to play
with strength and power? They are already chasing, climbing trees, breaking
ice with sticks, rolling around the ground together quasi-wrestling.
I have played power games with my daughter - letting her tell me what to do,
etc - but I don't know how I would play a power game with someone else's
child. Ella has super heroes and princesses but superhero stories might be
too old for James and he doesn't seem like a princess kind of guy. Maybe
knights?
I am sorry to be dense...I was never encouraged to play with strength and
power growing up I was encouraged to be meek, quiet and sedentary. So, I
feel a little out of my depth hence what may seem like a silly question.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Here'a a list of physical activities for young children by Pat Robinson (aka wuweimama):
Pat Robinson (aka wuweimama)
and an article with other ideas:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/407229-preschool-large-muscle-movement-exercises/
Pat Robinson (aka wuweimama)
and an article with other ideas:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/407229-preschool-large-muscle-movement-exercises/
Sandra Dodd
OOPS--left out the first link.
Here'a a list of physical activities for young children by Pat Robinson (aka wuweimama):
Pat Robinson (aka wuweimama)
http://sandradodd.com/physicality/
and an article with other ideas:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/407229-preschool-large-muscle-movement-exercises/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Here'a a list of physical activities for young children by Pat Robinson (aka wuweimama):
Pat Robinson (aka wuweimama)
http://sandradodd.com/physicality/
and an article with other ideas:
http://www.livestrong.com/article/407229-preschool-large-muscle-movement-exercises/
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
aldq75
My kids play both! If you have a patterned floor, one color (or special patterned tile) can be the safe spot and the other color can be the lava/shark/monster.
We have played this game at airports. They play it at the grocery store when it isn't busy.
Andrea Q
We have played this game at airports. They play it at the grocery store when it isn't busy.
Andrea Q
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> > Lava monster (not touching the ground, on swingsets/playground equipment,
> > or furniture), or any monster/chase/tag/catch games.
> >
> Shark - my kids called this "shark," not lava monster <G>. That's southern
> california vs new mexico.
aldq75
Another idea...
jumping and stomping on bubble wrap!
Andrea Q
jumping and stomping on bubble wrap!
Andrea Q