kitten biting
m0n1ka05
I know some of you are pet owners so any advice would be fantastic.
We have a 10month kitten who has recently started biting the girls if she doesnt like the way they are petting her. I show my daughters the correct way to interact but sometimes they just want to cuddle her.
When she bites I pick her up by the scruff of the neck and remove her to another room. It makes no difference.
I feel like I should be protecting my children from possible bites but as kitty is an indoor cat its cruel to keep her in one room.
I discussed the possibility of rehoming but my 4 year old gets very upset at this.
Im trying to find a solution but dont know what to do.
Thanks for reading
We have a 10month kitten who has recently started biting the girls if she doesnt like the way they are petting her. I show my daughters the correct way to interact but sometimes they just want to cuddle her.
When she bites I pick her up by the scruff of the neck and remove her to another room. It makes no difference.
I feel like I should be protecting my children from possible bites but as kitty is an indoor cat its cruel to keep her in one room.
I discussed the possibility of rehoming but my 4 year old gets very upset at this.
Im trying to find a solution but dont know what to do.
Thanks for reading
Sandra Dodd
-=-We have a 10month kitten who has recently started biting the girls if she doesnt like the way they are petting her. I show my daughters the correct way to interact but sometimes they just want to cuddle her.-=-
Are you trying to train the cat to accept abuse peacefully?
That ends up enabling your children to mistreat an animal.
-=-When she bites I pick her up by the scruff of the neck and remove her to another room. It makes no difference.-=-
I'm guessing it makes her more likely to bite your girls later.
If defending herself gets her hauled off, what kind of difference do you really want it to make?
-=-Im trying to find a solution but dont know what to do.-=-
Tell your children that the cat isn't a toy, she's a real thinking creature who can and should defend herself, and that ANYtime they're insufficiently gentle with a cat or dog, gerbil or ANY animal any size, they could be scratched or bitten.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Are you trying to train the cat to accept abuse peacefully?
That ends up enabling your children to mistreat an animal.
-=-When she bites I pick her up by the scruff of the neck and remove her to another room. It makes no difference.-=-
I'm guessing it makes her more likely to bite your girls later.
If defending herself gets her hauled off, what kind of difference do you really want it to make?
-=-Im trying to find a solution but dont know what to do.-=-
Tell your children that the cat isn't a toy, she's a real thinking creature who can and should defend herself, and that ANYtime they're insufficiently gentle with a cat or dog, gerbil or ANY animal any size, they could be scratched or bitten.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
m0n1ka05
I should have given examples. The kitten bites as it is sleeping and my youngest strokes it. I'm guessing it wants its own space. MY youngest is 21months so I explain she has to give the kitty space but sometimes she still wants to stroke her.
Abuse is a really strong word to use Sandra. If I gave the impression we are a family of abusers thats really not the case.
It was suggested by the breeder to pick it up by the scruff of the neck.
Thanks for your advice
Abuse is a really strong word to use Sandra. If I gave the impression we are a family of abusers thats really not the case.
It was suggested by the breeder to pick it up by the scruff of the neck.
Thanks for your advice
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-We have a 10month kitten who has recently started biting the girls if she doesnt like the way they are petting her. I show my daughters the correct way to interact but sometimes they just want to cuddle her.-=-
>
> Are you trying to train the cat to accept abuse peacefully?
> That ends up enabling your children to mistreat an animal.
>
> -=-When she bites I pick her up by the scruff of the neck and remove her to another room. It makes no difference.-=-
>
> I'm guessing it makes her more likely to bite your girls later.
> If defending herself gets her hauled off, what kind of difference do you really want it to make?
>
> -=-Im trying to find a solution but dont know what to do.-=-
>
> Tell your children that the cat isn't a toy, she's a real thinking creature who can and should defend herself, and that ANYtime they're insufficiently gentle with a cat or dog, gerbil or ANY animal any size, they could be scratched or bitten.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
[email protected]
Cats usually give warning signs before they get to actually biting. They hiss or their ears go back. They sometimes will swat with their paws. Also if the cat is sleeping, yes it probably does not want to be disturbed.
A kitten can only be picked up by the scruff of it's neck when it is very light. A mother does it to her kittens when she can hold them in her mouth. As it gets bigger, it can put too much strain in their spine and hurt them. They need to be held from under their bottom to be properly supported.
Rachel (40)
Leila (5)
A kitten can only be picked up by the scruff of it's neck when it is very light. A mother does it to her kittens when she can hold them in her mouth. As it gets bigger, it can put too much strain in their spine and hurt them. They need to be held from under their bottom to be properly supported.
Rachel (40)
Leila (5)
On 22 Jan 2012, at 22:03, "m0n1ka05" <mama.monika@...> wrote:
> I should have given examples. The kitten bites as it is sleeping and my youngest strokes it. I'm guessing it wants its own space. MY youngest is 21months so I explain she has to give the kitty space but sometimes she still wants to stroke her.
>
> Abuse is a really strong word to use Sandra. If I gave the impression we are a family of abusers thats really not the case.
>
> It was suggested by the breeder to pick it up by the scruff of the neck.
>
> Thanks for your advice
>
> --- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>>
>> -=-We have a 10month kitten who has recently started biting the girls if she doesnt like the way they are petting her. I show my daughters the correct way to interact but sometimes they just want to cuddle her.-=-
>>
>> Are you trying to train the cat to accept abuse peacefully?
>> That ends up enabling your children to mistreat an animal.
>>
>> -=-When she bites I pick her up by the scruff of the neck and remove her to another room. It makes no difference.-=-
>>
>> I'm guessing it makes her more likely to bite your girls later.
>> If defending herself gets her hauled off, what kind of difference do you really want it to make?
>>
>> -=-Im trying to find a solution but dont know what to do.-=-
>>
>> Tell your children that the cat isn't a toy, she's a real thinking creature who can and should defend herself, and that ANYtime they're insufficiently gentle with a cat or dog, gerbil or ANY animal any size, they could be scratched or bitten.
>>
>> Sandra
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Deb Lewis
***When she bites I pick her up by the scruff of the neck and remove her to another room. It makes no difference.***
I don’t understand what difference you hope being rough with the cat will make? Being kind to the cat would be a better choice. It will be an example of kindness for your children and a comfort to the poor cat.
If you’re telling the children to be nicer and then being rough with the cat yourself how are they supposed to take you seriously? How is the cat supposed to care about any of you if you’re not nice to her?
***Im trying to find a solution but dont know what to do.***
Hang out with them when they’re playing with the cat. Stop them when they’re not being nice. Point out immediately when the cat is not enjoying them. Take the cat gently, sympathetically, kindly to safety if the children can’t be sweet. Make a safe place for the cat to escape to when she doesn’t want to be bothered.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don’t understand what difference you hope being rough with the cat will make? Being kind to the cat would be a better choice. It will be an example of kindness for your children and a comfort to the poor cat.
If you’re telling the children to be nicer and then being rough with the cat yourself how are they supposed to take you seriously? How is the cat supposed to care about any of you if you’re not nice to her?
***Im trying to find a solution but dont know what to do.***
Hang out with them when they’re playing with the cat. Stop them when they’re not being nice. Point out immediately when the cat is not enjoying them. Take the cat gently, sympathetically, kindly to safety if the children can’t be sweet. Make a safe place for the cat to escape to when she doesn’t want to be bothered.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
21 months and 4 years old are probably too young to be expected to treat a cat well. Having the cat as an indoor cat gives her/him really no options away. I think Deb's idea of giving the cat a place it can have as a private space is a really good idea. I think it needs to be a place where your children can't get at the cat. Completely outside of their range of access. Also make sure you are with your children when they are with the cat. If those things are outside of your households ability, rehoming the cat may be something you might want to think seriously about. Neither the cat nor your children are going to learn, very quickly, how to be around each other. Giving them safe, and well supervised access to each other will make it easier for all of them to learn to feel safe and act appropriately with each other.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: m0n1ka05 <mama.monika@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 22 January 2012, 19:03
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kitten biting
I should have given examples. The kitten bites as it is sleeping and my youngest strokes it. I'm guessing it wants its own space. MY youngest is 21months so I explain she has to give the kitty space but sometimes she still wants to stroke her.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Schuyler
________________________________
From: m0n1ka05 <mama.monika@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Sunday, 22 January 2012, 19:03
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kitten biting
I should have given examples. The kitten bites as it is sleeping and my youngest strokes it. I'm guessing it wants its own space. MY youngest is 21months so I explain she has to give the kitty space but sometimes she still wants to stroke her.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
m0n1ka05
Thank you thats really sound advice.
As I mentioned in reply to Sandras post the breeder had told me to pick her by the scruff of the neck and remove her. I can see now that does not help.
As I mentioned in reply to Sandras post the breeder had told me to pick her by the scruff of the neck and remove her. I can see now that does not help.
--- In [email protected], "Deb Lewis" <d.lewis@...> wrote:
>
> ***When she bites I pick her up by the scruff of the neck and remove her to another room. It makes no difference.***
>
> I donât understand what difference you hope being rough with the cat will make? Being kind to the cat would be a better choice. It will be an example of kindness for your children and a comfort to the poor cat.
>
> If youâre telling the children to be nicer and then being rough with the cat yourself how are they supposed to take you seriously? How is the cat supposed to care about any of you if youâre not nice to her?
>
> ***Im trying to find a solution but dont know what to do.***
>
>
> Hang out with them when theyâre playing with the cat. Stop them when theyâre not being nice. Point out immediately when the cat is not enjoying them. Take the cat gently, sympathetically, kindly to safety if the children canât be sweet. Make a safe place for the cat to escape to when she doesnât want to be bothered.
>
> Deb Lewis
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=- The kitten bites as it is sleeping and my youngest strokes it. I'm guessing it wants its own space.-=-
I don't think you need to guess.
It doesn't want to be startled awake, and will defend itself.
Ask your daughters to let the cat sleep if it's asleep, and tell them cats sleep a lot.
As the cat gets older and trusts you all more, you might be able to pet her in her sleep. It will never be really polite, but it might become safer.
-=-Abuse is a really strong word to use Sandra. If I gave the impression we are a family of abusers thats really not the case. -=-
I didn't say you were "a family of abusers."
If you care nothing about the kitten's feeling of safety and security, or about its need, as a kitten, to play rough, then that's the problem. Not the kitten's instinctive need to defend itself. I think you do want your girls to be more gentle to the cat, so they're the ones you should talk to, not the cat.
-=-It was suggested by the breeder to pick it up by the scruff of the neck. -=-
Is the breeder an unschooler?
The answer will be different from different angles, don't you think? My granny would've sent one of her several sons out to drown the cat in a burlap bag (which they called 'gunny sack") if she didn't like the cat. It was common practice in those days.
Common practice now is to pick the cat up and remove it, and tell the kids what they did was fine, and there was something mean about that cat.
Unschooling will involve helping your children learn to be good people, by whatever definition of "good" you come up with. Making better choices. http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't think you need to guess.
It doesn't want to be startled awake, and will defend itself.
Ask your daughters to let the cat sleep if it's asleep, and tell them cats sleep a lot.
As the cat gets older and trusts you all more, you might be able to pet her in her sleep. It will never be really polite, but it might become safer.
-=-Abuse is a really strong word to use Sandra. If I gave the impression we are a family of abusers thats really not the case. -=-
I didn't say you were "a family of abusers."
If you care nothing about the kitten's feeling of safety and security, or about its need, as a kitten, to play rough, then that's the problem. Not the kitten's instinctive need to defend itself. I think you do want your girls to be more gentle to the cat, so they're the ones you should talk to, not the cat.
-=-It was suggested by the breeder to pick it up by the scruff of the neck. -=-
Is the breeder an unschooler?
The answer will be different from different angles, don't you think? My granny would've sent one of her several sons out to drown the cat in a burlap bag (which they called 'gunny sack") if she didn't like the cat. It was common practice in those days.
Common practice now is to pick the cat up and remove it, and tell the kids what they did was fine, and there was something mean about that cat.
Unschooling will involve helping your children learn to be good people, by whatever definition of "good" you come up with. Making better choices. http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
----Abuse is a really strong word to use Sandra. -----
----The kitten bites as it is sleeping and my youngest strokes it.-----
When someone overpowers someone else, what do you call that? If, when you were sleeping someone much much larger came by and touched you, perhaps roughly, while you were sleeping, on a continued basis, would you feel abused?
---If I gave the impression we are a family of abusers thats really not the case.----
I didn't get the sense that you are a "family of abusers" from your post and I didn't read that anyone was suggesting that in their reply. This is what I read:
*****" Are you trying to train the cat to accept abuse peacefully?"*****
The way your daughter *treats* the cat, IS on at least some occasions, abusive:
a·buse [v. uh-byooz; n. uh-byoos]
1. to use wrongly or improperly; misuse: to abuse one's authority.
2. to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abuse)
No one is suggesting that your daughter is a bad person! But you have to be honest with yourself about what the cat is experiencing.
Children are often too rough with animals, and other children. It is a natural stage of development: lacking understanding that/how your actions effect other beings.
Your daughter is being a perfectly normal 21 month old child!
And your cat is being a perfectly normal cat!
Expecting either to act differently isn't realistic. Expecting a 10 month old kitten to know or be able to learn to deal with being annoyed/scared/hurt in any manner other than a physical response is unrealistic.
Make a safe spot for the cat to be without interruption. It is far less cruel to give her a special place where she is safe than it is to leave her in a position of of powerlessness. If you don't like the idea of giving her a room where you can close the door, provide a safe, high place for her to sleep and escape to when she's had enough. Make it a cat-happy place with something cozy to sleep on and some yummy treats. Show it to her. Place her there lovingly, not roughly by the scruff of her neck.
Brie
----The kitten bites as it is sleeping and my youngest strokes it.-----
When someone overpowers someone else, what do you call that? If, when you were sleeping someone much much larger came by and touched you, perhaps roughly, while you were sleeping, on a continued basis, would you feel abused?
---If I gave the impression we are a family of abusers thats really not the case.----
I didn't get the sense that you are a "family of abusers" from your post and I didn't read that anyone was suggesting that in their reply. This is what I read:
*****" Are you trying to train the cat to accept abuse peacefully?"*****
The way your daughter *treats* the cat, IS on at least some occasions, abusive:
a·buse [v. uh-byooz; n. uh-byoos]
1. to use wrongly or improperly; misuse: to abuse one's authority.
2. to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way
(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/abuse)
No one is suggesting that your daughter is a bad person! But you have to be honest with yourself about what the cat is experiencing.
Children are often too rough with animals, and other children. It is a natural stage of development: lacking understanding that/how your actions effect other beings.
Your daughter is being a perfectly normal 21 month old child!
And your cat is being a perfectly normal cat!
Expecting either to act differently isn't realistic. Expecting a 10 month old kitten to know or be able to learn to deal with being annoyed/scared/hurt in any manner other than a physical response is unrealistic.
Make a safe spot for the cat to be without interruption. It is far less cruel to give her a special place where she is safe than it is to leave her in a position of of powerlessness. If you don't like the idea of giving her a room where you can close the door, provide a safe, high place for her to sleep and escape to when she's had enough. Make it a cat-happy place with something cozy to sleep on and some yummy treats. Show it to her. Place her there lovingly, not roughly by the scruff of her neck.
Brie
Sandra Dodd
-=-Thank you thats really sound advice. -=-
It all looked like sound advice to me.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
If you reject advice the second you read it, unschooling will very likely elude you.
Sandra
It all looked like sound advice to me.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
If you reject advice the second you read it, unschooling will very likely elude you.
Sandra
m0n1ka05
Everyones advice is sound advice here. You have helped me so much over the last few months. When I saw the word abuse in your post my brain shut down.
I then came back to it again and got the message in the way it was meant.
In sharing my issues I am fully aware that I will get a wide range of answers and if I cant read a little, try a little then this list is not the one for me :)
Im trying my best to be the parent I never had. You guys are my role models and everyday im getting closer to that goal. We all need alittle help along the way.
I then came back to it again and got the message in the way it was meant.
In sharing my issues I am fully aware that I will get a wide range of answers and if I cant read a little, try a little then this list is not the one for me :)
Im trying my best to be the parent I never had. You guys are my role models and everyday im getting closer to that goal. We all need alittle help along the way.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Thank you thats really sound advice. -=-
>
> It all looked like sound advice to me.
>
> Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
>
> If you reject advice the second you read it, unschooling will very likely elude you.
>
> Sandra
>
sheeboo2
---As I mentioned in reply to Sandras post the breeder had told me to pick her by
the scruff of the neck and remove her. I can see now that does not help.----
We recently adopted an 18 month-old dog. Its been over 15 years since I trained a dog, and this new guy has a far different personality than the other dogs I've lived with. I've been revisiting dog-training theories pretty intensely the past 6 weeks and I am continually blown away by the similarity between unschooling philosophies about learning and what is now known as "positive dog training."
It used to be that the vast majority of advise on how to get a dog to do what you wanted it to do involved training the animal to recognize that "bad" behavior involved a correction ranging from slightly annoying to downright painful. Control and force-- what does that remind you of???
The method works, for the most part, except when it doesn't and dogs end up aggressive and/or neurotic.
It is unnecessary for the vast majority of dogs to use control and force, because it is even easier to show a dog that coming when called, sitting when asked, etc make wonderful things happen, like a scratch behind the ear, a ball to chase, or a yummy treat. In this case, you have an animal choosing to do something because it feels good, not because it is afraid of what will happen if it doesn't. What does that remind you of?
Brie
the scruff of the neck and remove her. I can see now that does not help.----
We recently adopted an 18 month-old dog. Its been over 15 years since I trained a dog, and this new guy has a far different personality than the other dogs I've lived with. I've been revisiting dog-training theories pretty intensely the past 6 weeks and I am continually blown away by the similarity between unschooling philosophies about learning and what is now known as "positive dog training."
It used to be that the vast majority of advise on how to get a dog to do what you wanted it to do involved training the animal to recognize that "bad" behavior involved a correction ranging from slightly annoying to downright painful. Control and force-- what does that remind you of???
The method works, for the most part, except when it doesn't and dogs end up aggressive and/or neurotic.
It is unnecessary for the vast majority of dogs to use control and force, because it is even easier to show a dog that coming when called, sitting when asked, etc make wonderful things happen, like a scratch behind the ear, a ball to chase, or a yummy treat. In this case, you have an animal choosing to do something because it feels good, not because it is afraid of what will happen if it doesn't. What does that remind you of?
Brie
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
When my kids were young, specially Gigi, I would separate them from the cats if they were being rough with the cats or any pets.
MD was always very very gentle but Gigi was not. She just could not do it . We had a little cat that was very sweet and small as an adult weighting 4 pounds at her heaviest. She was just tinny and loved the kids. She would lay there and Gigi would run to go and play on top of her . I just had to be there and facilitate and many times remove Fluffy for her safety. i would not let my daughter hurt the cat.
Fluffy would take anything from the kids. She was just way too mellow!
Today we have 2 cats. One we adopted to be a barn cat because he was a cat that come to us with the rescue telling me not to let my kids pick him up as he would bite.
He moved in and is a cool cat. But he has big boundaries, things he likes ans things he dislikes strongly. Every morning I find him sleeping with my son. He loves to be petted in his head but not his body.
He tries not to bite. He does not want to hurt you but he will let you know he is mad. My kids have grown and are great with the pets but I still remind them what the cats like and do not like.
They know that if X-racer is mad that he can potentially bite really bad and cat bites can cause pasteurella ( sp) infection and it is very very painful . Plus kittens scratches can cause cat scratch fever. Having had those myself I tell you they are super super painful I would not want my child to have to endure the pain and antibiotics
Same with Gigi and our house dog Vickie who will tolerate anything from her but it does not make it right to be pick up and pushed around because she would not bite.
When Gigi was little I would move the pet to a safe place and tell her I would not let her hurt them. I did help her pet the animal and showed her and was there for the interaction. But sometimes Gigi just got too excited and I had to separate.
Be more present. Keep the kids and the pet safe. Model caring so your kids see how to interact with them.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
MD was always very very gentle but Gigi was not. She just could not do it . We had a little cat that was very sweet and small as an adult weighting 4 pounds at her heaviest. She was just tinny and loved the kids. She would lay there and Gigi would run to go and play on top of her . I just had to be there and facilitate and many times remove Fluffy for her safety. i would not let my daughter hurt the cat.
Fluffy would take anything from the kids. She was just way too mellow!
Today we have 2 cats. One we adopted to be a barn cat because he was a cat that come to us with the rescue telling me not to let my kids pick him up as he would bite.
He moved in and is a cool cat. But he has big boundaries, things he likes ans things he dislikes strongly. Every morning I find him sleeping with my son. He loves to be petted in his head but not his body.
He tries not to bite. He does not want to hurt you but he will let you know he is mad. My kids have grown and are great with the pets but I still remind them what the cats like and do not like.
They know that if X-racer is mad that he can potentially bite really bad and cat bites can cause pasteurella ( sp) infection and it is very very painful . Plus kittens scratches can cause cat scratch fever. Having had those myself I tell you they are super super painful I would not want my child to have to endure the pain and antibiotics
Same with Gigi and our house dog Vickie who will tolerate anything from her but it does not make it right to be pick up and pushed around because she would not bite.
When Gigi was little I would move the pet to a safe place and tell her I would not let her hurt them. I did help her pet the animal and showed her and was there for the interaction. But sometimes Gigi just got too excited and I had to separate.
Be more present. Keep the kids and the pet safe. Model caring so your kids see how to interact with them.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[email protected]
Would you be willing to share a link or two about the positive dog training?
We also have an 18 mo old dog, and i've read more than I ever thought I
would about dog psychology, but most of it goes so against our unschooling
principles.
Thanks,
Sadie Bugni
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
We also have an 18 mo old dog, and i've read more than I ever thought I
would about dog psychology, but most of it goes so against our unschooling
principles.
Thanks,
Sadie Bugni
Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
nd I had to separate.
-=-
OK I did not have too but it was mindful to the animal to do so.
I chose to separate and keep both sides safe!
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kitten biting
When my kids were young, specially Gigi, I would separate them from the cats if they were being rough with the cats or any pets.
MD was always very very gentle but Gigi was not. She just could not do it . We had a little cat that was very sweet and small as an adult weighting 4 pounds at her heaviest. She was just tinny and loved the kids. She would lay there and Gigi would run to go and play on top of her . I just had to be there and facilitate and many times remove Fluffy for her safety. i would not let my daughter hurt the cat.
Fluffy would take anything from the kids. She was just way too mellow!
Today we have 2 cats. One we adopted to be a barn cat because he was a cat that come to us with the rescue telling me not to let my kids pick him up as he would bite.
He moved in and is a cool cat. But he has big boundaries, things he likes ans things he dislikes strongly. Every morning I find him sleeping with my son. He loves to be petted in his head but not his body.
He tries not to bite. He does not want to hurt you but he will let you know he is mad. My kids have grown and are great with the pets but I still remind them what the cats like and do not like.
They know that if X-racer is mad that he can potentially bite really bad and cat bites can cause pasteurella ( sp) infection and it is very very painful . Plus kittens scratches can cause cat scratch fever. Having had those myself I tell you they are super super painful I would not want my child to have to endure the pain and antibiotics
Same with Gigi and our house dog Vickie who will tolerate anything from her but it does not make it right to be pick up and pushed around because she would not bite.
When Gigi was little I would move the pet to a safe place and tell her I would not let her hurt them. I did help her pet the animal and showed her and was there for the interaction. But sometimes Gigi just got too excited and I had to separate.
Be more present. Keep the kids and the pet safe. Model caring so your kids see how to interact with them.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-
OK I did not have too but it was mindful to the animal to do so.
I chose to separate and keep both sides safe!
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 22, 2012 2:36 PM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: kitten biting
When my kids were young, specially Gigi, I would separate them from the cats if they were being rough with the cats or any pets.
MD was always very very gentle but Gigi was not. She just could not do it . We had a little cat that was very sweet and small as an adult weighting 4 pounds at her heaviest. She was just tinny and loved the kids. She would lay there and Gigi would run to go and play on top of her . I just had to be there and facilitate and many times remove Fluffy for her safety. i would not let my daughter hurt the cat.
Fluffy would take anything from the kids. She was just way too mellow!
Today we have 2 cats. One we adopted to be a barn cat because he was a cat that come to us with the rescue telling me not to let my kids pick him up as he would bite.
He moved in and is a cool cat. But he has big boundaries, things he likes ans things he dislikes strongly. Every morning I find him sleeping with my son. He loves to be petted in his head but not his body.
He tries not to bite. He does not want to hurt you but he will let you know he is mad. My kids have grown and are great with the pets but I still remind them what the cats like and do not like.
They know that if X-racer is mad that he can potentially bite really bad and cat bites can cause pasteurella ( sp) infection and it is very very painful . Plus kittens scratches can cause cat scratch fever. Having had those myself I tell you they are super super painful I would not want my child to have to endure the pain and antibiotics
Same with Gigi and our house dog Vickie who will tolerate anything from her but it does not make it right to be pick up and pushed around because she would not bite.
When Gigi was little I would move the pet to a safe place and tell her I would not let her hurt them. I did help her pet the animal and showed her and was there for the interaction. But sometimes Gigi just got too excited and I had to separate.
Be more present. Keep the kids and the pet safe. Model caring so your kids see how to interact with them.
Alex Polikowsky
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Sandra Dodd
-=-It is unnecessary for the vast majority of dogs to use control and force, because it is even easier to show a dog that coming when called, sitting when asked, etc make wonderful things happen, like a scratch behind the ear, a ball to chase, or a yummy treat. In this case, you have an animal choosing to do something because it feels good, not because it is afraid of what will happen if it doesn't. -=-
Keith and I have had dogs all the time we were growing up, and had a couple of dogs together, but we went nearly a year with no dog. Marty was nine and wanted a dog, so we got a little puppy that turned out to be an Australian cattle dog (we didn't know when we adopted her), and I arranged to get Marty and the dog into the puppy obedience class that had the best reputation in town. She didn't usually deal with children, just adults, the teacher said. I persuaded her to give Marty a chance, and that I would be there to take over the puppy if Marty couldn't do it, and to help him at home. We went twice, but Marty disapproved of jerking the lead and saying "NO" as much as the teacher was sure was necessary.
So that dog learned, figured out, all kinds of things without any training at all. We talked to her. We expressed frustration if we didn't like what she was doing, and we were happily huggy-and-kissy when we were glad of what she did. Within just a year or so, the side gate broke. She could get out of the yard if she wanted to. We took down the junk on the other side of the house (we had just lately moved in when she came to live with us) and so she could go all the way around the house, and did. She occasionally went out of the yard, but we would say "stay home" and she liked the praise and attention she got by coming back home, and she "got it."
She would go on walks with some of us, and stop at streets and wait for the human to look both ways and talk about it, and then say "okay" or "let's go," and then she would cross.
Maybe she was just a genius who could understand English. I don't think so, though. I think we worked with the instincts and desires she already had to find her place within a group and to be helpful and proud of it.
Two other unschoolers in the days I was writing about our thoughts about all that progress said, in separate discussions (not here) something about "unschooling dogs now?" And clearly they thought it was wrong and bad. And clearly I said, "Yeah, we are."
We treat our cats differently since we've had kids than we did when we were childless, too (Keith and I), and I've talked about that sometimes when I've spoken about the unexpected benefits of unschooling. We became nicer pet owners.
Sandra
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Keith and I have had dogs all the time we were growing up, and had a couple of dogs together, but we went nearly a year with no dog. Marty was nine and wanted a dog, so we got a little puppy that turned out to be an Australian cattle dog (we didn't know when we adopted her), and I arranged to get Marty and the dog into the puppy obedience class that had the best reputation in town. She didn't usually deal with children, just adults, the teacher said. I persuaded her to give Marty a chance, and that I would be there to take over the puppy if Marty couldn't do it, and to help him at home. We went twice, but Marty disapproved of jerking the lead and saying "NO" as much as the teacher was sure was necessary.
So that dog learned, figured out, all kinds of things without any training at all. We talked to her. We expressed frustration if we didn't like what she was doing, and we were happily huggy-and-kissy when we were glad of what she did. Within just a year or so, the side gate broke. She could get out of the yard if she wanted to. We took down the junk on the other side of the house (we had just lately moved in when she came to live with us) and so she could go all the way around the house, and did. She occasionally went out of the yard, but we would say "stay home" and she liked the praise and attention she got by coming back home, and she "got it."
She would go on walks with some of us, and stop at streets and wait for the human to look both ways and talk about it, and then say "okay" or "let's go," and then she would cross.
Maybe she was just a genius who could understand English. I don't think so, though. I think we worked with the instincts and desires she already had to find her place within a group and to be helpful and proud of it.
Two other unschoolers in the days I was writing about our thoughts about all that progress said, in separate discussions (not here) something about "unschooling dogs now?" And clearly they thought it was wrong and bad. And clearly I said, "Yeah, we are."
We treat our cats differently since we've had kids than we did when we were childless, too (Keith and I), and I've talked about that sometimes when I've spoken about the unexpected benefits of unschooling. We became nicer pet owners.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=- When I saw the word abuse in your post my brain shut down.
-=-I then came back to it again and got the message in the way it was meant.-=-
Next time you feel your brain shut down, maybe move to "...try a little, wait a while, watch" rather than throwing words back that suggest someone is somehow giving mean advice. No one has to help anyone here. It's all voluntary.
Perhaps you were defending yourself, like a cat throwing teeth and claws at the situation.
Perhaps you could consider that you're not in a dangerous situation here, though. :-)
Sandra
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-=-I then came back to it again and got the message in the way it was meant.-=-
Next time you feel your brain shut down, maybe move to "...try a little, wait a while, watch" rather than throwing words back that suggest someone is somehow giving mean advice. No one has to help anyone here. It's all voluntary.
Perhaps you were defending yourself, like a cat throwing teeth and claws at the situation.
Perhaps you could consider that you're not in a dangerous situation here, though. :-)
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
Alex Polikowsy
Yeah Sandra. Of all dogs would be like your Australian Cattle dog ! Those dogs are amazing! I have had 3 and have a mix now. They are super super smart and some I suspect really can understand people talking!
Sent from my iPhone
Sent from my iPhone
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
And here is the amazing Skidboot:||
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2BfzUIBy9A&feature=fvwrel%c2%a0
and this is a great video of the owner and Kidboot. I love when he talks about the horse and shoeing the horse.
Alex Polikowsky
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2BfzUIBy9A&feature=fvwrel%c2%a0
and this is a great video of the owner and Kidboot. I love when he talks about the horse and shoeing the horse.
Alex Polikowsky
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m0n1ka05
I am using my phone so cant post links. Yesterday I was searching through the archives for ano answer to this question and came upon a post. The poster was distressed at the loss of a baby chick her son had killed. You mentioned that abuse was a strong word to use and mistreatment was a better one. You also mentioned that you made fireflies into rings and pulled the wings off them when you were younger.
I am sorry that I implied your advice was mean. I know thats not what you meant.
I am sorry that I implied your advice was mean. I know thats not what you meant.
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=- When I saw the word abuse in your post my brain shut down.
>
> -=-I then came back to it again and got the message in the way it was meant.-=-
>
> Next time you feel your brain shut down, maybe move to "...try a little, wait a while, watch" rather than throwing words back that suggest someone is somehow giving mean advice. No one has to help anyone here. It's all voluntary.
>
> Perhaps you were defending yourself, like a cat throwing teeth and claws at the situation.
> Perhaps you could consider that you're not in a dangerous situation here, though. :-)
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Deb Lewis
*** cat bites can cause pasteurella ( sp) infection and it is very very painful . Plus kittens scratches can cause cat scratch fever. ***
Since you had both of those it’s probably kind of scary but for perspective, the CDC reports cases of Cat Scratch Disease at about 22,000 people per year. In contrast about 500,000 people a year visit the emergency room due to bicycle accidents.
And it’s not only cats can carry Pasturella Multocida but dogs and cattle and birds and adorable little bunny rabbits.<g>
So about unschooling ideas even benefiting animals..
Ivan came to live with us after his people moved away and left him. He was really unhappy and even though I have always lived with cats I had a hard time understanding what he liked and what he wanted. He was declawed by some previous person he lived with but he would bite and draw blood. He’d strike like a snake! If you leaned down to pet him he’d jump up and bite your face. He bloodied all of us multiple times. But we kept being nice to him, tried really hard to pay attention to when he seemed happy and do more of whatever he was liking. After about a year of trying very hard to do the things he liked he was noticeably nicer. He started to like us, he started to give little warnings when he was getting cranky instead of just chomping. He’s lived with us for two years now and he rarely bites and hasn’t drawn blood in a long time. He’s still different from any cat I’ve ever lived with but we understand him now and he knows we’ll try hard not to piss him off.<g>
What we’ve learned about him is that he really doesn’t like change at all. He doesn’t like it if furniture gets moved or the mop bucket comes out or something new comes into the house. Grocery shopping day still makes him cranky. So when he first got here we were the wrong people, this was the wrong house, wrong yard, wrong furniture, wrong everything and he was really unhappy. Kindness helped. He likes us now, likes to ride around on my shoulder while I do stuff, likes to help me brush my teeth<g> likes to keep me company while I’m washing dishes. We really love him and want him to be happy. And he’s cute. That helps.<g>
Deb Lewis
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Since you had both of those it’s probably kind of scary but for perspective, the CDC reports cases of Cat Scratch Disease at about 22,000 people per year. In contrast about 500,000 people a year visit the emergency room due to bicycle accidents.
And it’s not only cats can carry Pasturella Multocida but dogs and cattle and birds and adorable little bunny rabbits.<g>
So about unschooling ideas even benefiting animals..
Ivan came to live with us after his people moved away and left him. He was really unhappy and even though I have always lived with cats I had a hard time understanding what he liked and what he wanted. He was declawed by some previous person he lived with but he would bite and draw blood. He’d strike like a snake! If you leaned down to pet him he’d jump up and bite your face. He bloodied all of us multiple times. But we kept being nice to him, tried really hard to pay attention to when he seemed happy and do more of whatever he was liking. After about a year of trying very hard to do the things he liked he was noticeably nicer. He started to like us, he started to give little warnings when he was getting cranky instead of just chomping. He’s lived with us for two years now and he rarely bites and hasn’t drawn blood in a long time. He’s still different from any cat I’ve ever lived with but we understand him now and he knows we’ll try hard not to piss him off.<g>
What we’ve learned about him is that he really doesn’t like change at all. He doesn’t like it if furniture gets moved or the mop bucket comes out or something new comes into the house. Grocery shopping day still makes him cranky. So when he first got here we were the wrong people, this was the wrong house, wrong yard, wrong furniture, wrong everything and he was really unhappy. Kindness helped. He likes us now, likes to ride around on my shoulder while I do stuff, likes to help me brush my teeth<g> likes to keep me company while I’m washing dishes. We really love him and want him to be happy. And he’s cute. That helps.<g>
Deb Lewis
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sheeboo2
---Would you be willing to share a link or two about the positive dog training? ----
Sure, and feel free to email me off-list if you have any other questions.
Patricia McConnell is one of my new favorites. She talks about how dogs are "learning all the time," seriously! And about being a "benevolent leader," by not expecting more form any dog than she can handle, setting a dog up to succeed, being proactive.
I especially like they way she talks about the misconceptions regarding "dominance" that trainers like Cesar Milan have popularized.
http://4pawsu.com/pmdominance.htm
Her book, "The other end of the leash" is great, as is her "family dog training" book. Her blog has good stuff too.
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/category/dog-training-books
Ian Dunbar is good, although in my opinion, also a bit annoying: http://www.ted.com/talks/ian_dunbar_on_dog_friendly_dog_training.html
Brie
Sure, and feel free to email me off-list if you have any other questions.
Patricia McConnell is one of my new favorites. She talks about how dogs are "learning all the time," seriously! And about being a "benevolent leader," by not expecting more form any dog than she can handle, setting a dog up to succeed, being proactive.
I especially like they way she talks about the misconceptions regarding "dominance" that trainers like Cesar Milan have popularized.
http://4pawsu.com/pmdominance.htm
Her book, "The other end of the leash" is great, as is her "family dog training" book. Her blog has good stuff too.
http://www.patriciamcconnell.com/category/dog-training-books
Ian Dunbar is good, although in my opinion, also a bit annoying: http://www.ted.com/talks/ian_dunbar_on_dog_friendly_dog_training.html
Brie
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Absolutely Deb ! Same with our X-racer. We learned what this cats likes and dislikes and, he is not like you kitteh, but he is much happier and even the rescue person was so surprised when she visited him and thought this was just the right place for him.
It was because we learned about him and respect him. He is a happy cat now.
As for the pasturella infections I have gotten both from cats and a dog. I have worked for many years with them , since I was 13.
I had the infection only 3 times and I got bitten many times ! I was not trying to scare anyone . Just making a point to also keep the kids safe as much as the cat.
I have heard people say: "Once he gets bitten he will learn not to do it again!" and do nothing.
That is just not nice to the animal and the child.
I should have been more clear.
Alex Polikowsky
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It was because we learned about him and respect him. He is a happy cat now.
As for the pasturella infections I have gotten both from cats and a dog. I have worked for many years with them , since I was 13.
I had the infection only 3 times and I got bitten many times ! I was not trying to scare anyone . Just making a point to also keep the kids safe as much as the cat.
I have heard people say: "Once he gets bitten he will learn not to do it again!" and do nothing.
That is just not nice to the animal and the child.
I should have been more clear.
Alex Polikowsky
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Yesterday I was searching through the archives for ano answer to this question and came upon a post. The poster was distressed at the loss of a baby chick her son had killed. You mentioned that abuse was a strong word to use and mistreatment was a better one. You also mentioned that you made fireflies into rings and pulled the wings off them when you were younger. -=-
Abuse was a strong word for a mother to use of her child about a baby chicken. There really does need to be some comparative value of a child's life and an animals. Fair or not, I think kittens that a person intends to have for the entire life of the cat outrank fragile baby chickens that wouldn't live that long under any circumstances.
And the fact that I killed some firelies as a four year old shouldn't negate anything I wrote about a cat and a child and the child's mother, should it?
http://sandradodd.com/balance
To characterize a child as abusive because he accidentally killed a baby chicken is too much.
Punishing a kitten for defending itself is too much.
Sandra
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Abuse was a strong word for a mother to use of her child about a baby chicken. There really does need to be some comparative value of a child's life and an animals. Fair or not, I think kittens that a person intends to have for the entire life of the cat outrank fragile baby chickens that wouldn't live that long under any circumstances.
And the fact that I killed some firelies as a four year old shouldn't negate anything I wrote about a cat and a child and the child's mother, should it?
http://sandradodd.com/balance
To characterize a child as abusive because he accidentally killed a baby chicken is too much.
Punishing a kitten for defending itself is too much.
Sandra
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s
Most cats will bite if you touch their bellies. It is a protective
mechanism. Also I have a cat that bites even when being loved. You can
pet her for about 3 minutes and then she is done and she will bite if
you continue. She is just communicating the only way she knows how.
shelley
mechanism. Also I have a cat that bites even when being loved. You can
pet her for about 3 minutes and then she is done and she will bite if
you continue. She is just communicating the only way she knows how.
shelley
m0n1ka05
I can see that now Shelley.
Ive done lots of reading and thinking :) my head is buzzing. I realise now that the kitten was very much second and I was viewing her behaviour as bad.
I have had a chat to the family about respecting kitty and how she has boundaries just as we all do. This is a work in progress for me. I come from a family and culture where cats are openly disliked. In Bangladesh cats are shooed away and almost always strayed. Street children chase them and they are viewed as pests. I hadnt linked my behaviour to my upbringing. However that is NOT an excuse. My eyes are opened now.
Sandra I was trying to link back to the article. I think I was trying to justify my behaviour. I am not a beautiful writer as most of you are and often my points are confusing. I did not mean that negates anything you said.
Im really trying to change my attitudes and thank you all for opening my heart to other possibilites.
Ive done lots of reading and thinking :) my head is buzzing. I realise now that the kitten was very much second and I was viewing her behaviour as bad.
I have had a chat to the family about respecting kitty and how she has boundaries just as we all do. This is a work in progress for me. I come from a family and culture where cats are openly disliked. In Bangladesh cats are shooed away and almost always strayed. Street children chase them and they are viewed as pests. I hadnt linked my behaviour to my upbringing. However that is NOT an excuse. My eyes are opened now.
Sandra I was trying to link back to the article. I think I was trying to justify my behaviour. I am not a beautiful writer as most of you are and often my points are confusing. I did not mean that negates anything you said.
Im really trying to change my attitudes and thank you all for opening my heart to other possibilites.
--- In [email protected], s <ophelea@...> wrote:
>
> Most cats will bite if you touch their bellies. It is a protective
> mechanism. Also I have a cat that bites even when being loved. You can
> pet her for about 3 minutes and then she is done and she will bite if
> you continue. She is just communicating the only way she knows how.
>
> shelley
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-I come from a family and culture where cats are openly disliked. In Bangladesh cats are shooed away and almost always strayed. Street children chase them and they are viewed as pests.-=-
I'm 58, so I've lived through some change regarding pets, and I've lived very rurally, and in a city (but still in the part where families have yards; suburban). There are families even now where dogs are mistreated with the idea that it will make them good guard dogs. It doesn't. Or that it will make them mean. It does. There are families in my part of the U.S. that breed pit bulls for fighting. They don't mind that their kids are mean to the dogs. They're mean to the dogs themselves. And they don't expect the dog to live a long, peaceful, happy life. They want to make some money off it while it lives. Dog fights are illegal. So the side effect of that, with children, is that the children witness and participate in meanness, and have knowledge of illegal activity that they better keep quiet. That's not good parenting or good pet ownership.
I had friends when I was 12 who had a German shepherd they kept chained up in the back yard. The dog was sad and mean.
Those are very extreme, and compared to that, a cat that will get to live inside seems all peace and love. But my point is that the principles are more important than the actions, and when the principles are clear, the actions are easy to decide. It won't be "do I do what the breeder recommended, or what some unschooler-online-strangers recommend"? It would be deciding what you want to model and encourage in your family, and doing the things that lead more toward that goal.
Sandra
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I'm 58, so I've lived through some change regarding pets, and I've lived very rurally, and in a city (but still in the part where families have yards; suburban). There are families even now where dogs are mistreated with the idea that it will make them good guard dogs. It doesn't. Or that it will make them mean. It does. There are families in my part of the U.S. that breed pit bulls for fighting. They don't mind that their kids are mean to the dogs. They're mean to the dogs themselves. And they don't expect the dog to live a long, peaceful, happy life. They want to make some money off it while it lives. Dog fights are illegal. So the side effect of that, with children, is that the children witness and participate in meanness, and have knowledge of illegal activity that they better keep quiet. That's not good parenting or good pet ownership.
I had friends when I was 12 who had a German shepherd they kept chained up in the back yard. The dog was sad and mean.
Those are very extreme, and compared to that, a cat that will get to live inside seems all peace and love. But my point is that the principles are more important than the actions, and when the principles are clear, the actions are easy to decide. It won't be "do I do what the breeder recommended, or what some unschooler-online-strangers recommend"? It would be deciding what you want to model and encourage in your family, and doing the things that lead more toward that goal.
Sandra
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D-H Family
What would you do if a puppy/dog needed to be kept safe from a child, but
the dog was extremely sad and unhappy at having to be alone in order to be
safe? Molly
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the dog was extremely sad and unhappy at having to be alone in order to be
safe? Molly
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sheeboo2
----What would you do if a puppy/dog needed to be kept safe from a child, but
the dog was extremely sad and unhappy at having to be alone in order to be
safe?----
I'd find a more suitable home for the dog, where she could get all the love and attention she needs, safely. It's a sucky situation, but most dogs are social creatures. Isolating a dog isn't fair, and isolating a puppy will lead to an unsocialized adult dog who isn't very comfortable with life.
Better to let the dog have a happy life.
Here's something to read, which may help:
http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/tag/rehoming-dogs
A quote from her book: "Rehoming your dog into a situation where he will be safe and happy is not a betrayal"
If you look it up on Google books:
http://tinyurl.com/7l4heyk
It may take you to the right page. If not, go to the "search this book" bar on the side and type in "rehoming" go to page 211.
You can always look at getting another dog later, when your child is more able to handle what is involved.
Brie
the dog was extremely sad and unhappy at having to be alone in order to be
safe?----
I'd find a more suitable home for the dog, where she could get all the love and attention she needs, safely. It's a sucky situation, but most dogs are social creatures. Isolating a dog isn't fair, and isolating a puppy will lead to an unsocialized adult dog who isn't very comfortable with life.
Better to let the dog have a happy life.
Here's something to read, which may help:
http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/tag/rehoming-dogs
A quote from her book: "Rehoming your dog into a situation where he will be safe and happy is not a betrayal"
If you look it up on Google books:
http://tinyurl.com/7l4heyk
It may take you to the right page. If not, go to the "search this book" bar on the side and type in "rehoming" go to page 211.
You can always look at getting another dog later, when your child is more able to handle what is involved.
Brie