not using the toilet and how to handle it
boolahoop
My daughter has problems with using the toilet. She is 5.5yrs old and frequently goes through stages of soiling herself. I have (mostly) comes to terms with this and I now realise the episodes are a lot shorter when I am kind and supportive of her.
What I do find difficult to handle is when she wee's in her bedroom. She will lay under the bed to do it, move her bean bag or rug and do it under them then put them back, or open her wardrobe and do it in there. The bathroom is right next door to her bedroom, and the reason she does it in her bedroom is because she is watching a video or listening to a CD and doesn't want to stop. I do have a problem with this reasoning because she will be quite happy to pause what she is doing to come downstairs.
I would like to ask for some advice on how to handle this situation, as I can't seem to stop myself getting very cross with her for this, but getting cross does not help. I have taken the TV out of her bedroom (it was only supposed to be in there for a short time while she was poorly, but it gave her so much joy we let her keep it) which has caused her a lot of distress, but I said I would remove it if she kept weeing in the bedroom, and I felt I had to follow through with what I'd said. I have Googled for answers as to why she may do it and how to handle it, but all I've come up with is people spanking their children for doing it. I really need another perspective on this, but can't seem to find one on my own.
Many thanks for any advice anyone can offer me, B.x
What I do find difficult to handle is when she wee's in her bedroom. She will lay under the bed to do it, move her bean bag or rug and do it under them then put them back, or open her wardrobe and do it in there. The bathroom is right next door to her bedroom, and the reason she does it in her bedroom is because she is watching a video or listening to a CD and doesn't want to stop. I do have a problem with this reasoning because she will be quite happy to pause what she is doing to come downstairs.
I would like to ask for some advice on how to handle this situation, as I can't seem to stop myself getting very cross with her for this, but getting cross does not help. I have taken the TV out of her bedroom (it was only supposed to be in there for a short time while she was poorly, but it gave her so much joy we let her keep it) which has caused her a lot of distress, but I said I would remove it if she kept weeing in the bedroom, and I felt I had to follow through with what I'd said. I have Googled for answers as to why she may do it and how to handle it, but all I've come up with is people spanking their children for doing it. I really need another perspective on this, but can't seem to find one on my own.
Many thanks for any advice anyone can offer me, B.x
NCMama
=-= What I do find difficult to handle is when she wee's in her bedroom. She will lay under the bed to do it, move her bean bag or rug and do it under them then put them back, or open her wardrobe and do it in there. The bathroom is right next door to her bedroom, and the reason she does it in her bedroom is because she is watching a video or listening to a CD and doesn't want to stop. I do have a problem with this reasoning because she will be quite happy to pause what she is doing to come downstairs. =-=
Where are you when she's watching videos or listening to CDs in her room?
Caren
Where are you when she's watching videos or listening to CDs in her room?
Caren
boolahoop
She watches video's/listens to a story CD when she is going to sleep, after I have read and sung to her. At this point I am usually downstairs working. She does not have a problem with being upstairs with her brother while daddy and I are downstairs.
I said in the original post that she does it while the CD or video are on, but after thinking about it, I'm pretty sure it's only when she is watching a video. My main issue is how to deal with it after it has happened
I said in the original post that she does it while the CD or video are on, but after thinking about it, I'm pretty sure it's only when she is watching a video. My main issue is how to deal with it after it has happened
--- In [email protected], "NCMama" <dharmamama1@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> =-= What I do find difficult to handle is when she wee's in her bedroom. She will lay under the bed to do it, move her bean bag or rug and do it under them then put them back, or open her wardrobe and do it in there. The bathroom is right next door to her bedroom, and the reason she does it in her bedroom is because she is watching a video or listening to a CD and doesn't want to stop. I do have a problem with this reasoning because she will be quite happy to pause what she is doing to come downstairs. =-=
>
> Where are you when she's watching videos or listening to CDs in her room?
>
> Caren
>
Glenda
===the reason she does it in her bedroom is because she is watching a video or listening to a CD and doesn't want to stop===
What about putting one of the small portable kid pottys in her room?
What about having a small tv or a CD player in the bathroom, if there's room for them to be safely away from water?
I'm 46yrs old and am sometimes so engrossed in what I'm doing that I wait to go to the bathroom until the last minute! And on more than one occasion my teen and I have both dashed for the bathroom at the same time, both of us having waited to go until we couldn't wait any longer, because neither of us wanted to stop what we were doing before then to take a bathroom break ;-).
===but I said I would remove it if she kept weeing in the bedroom, and I felt I had to follow through with what I'd said===
It's okay to say, "I don't like that decision I made. Let's try this instead." :-).
If you don't make threats, you're not left feeling you have to follow through on them. But if you do make one, there's no requirement that you have to follow through on it. I like the "better choice" idea: Is the better choice to follow through on the threat, or to say "I'm sorry I made that threat. Let's do '___' instead."?
Whenever you hear yourself thinking or saying "have to," stop and re-evaluate. You can *choose* to follow through on a threat, or you can *choose* not to. Thinking in terms of "choice" rather than "have to" unpaints you right out of that corner.
Glenda
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What about putting one of the small portable kid pottys in her room?
What about having a small tv or a CD player in the bathroom, if there's room for them to be safely away from water?
I'm 46yrs old and am sometimes so engrossed in what I'm doing that I wait to go to the bathroom until the last minute! And on more than one occasion my teen and I have both dashed for the bathroom at the same time, both of us having waited to go until we couldn't wait any longer, because neither of us wanted to stop what we were doing before then to take a bathroom break ;-).
===but I said I would remove it if she kept weeing in the bedroom, and I felt I had to follow through with what I'd said===
It's okay to say, "I don't like that decision I made. Let's try this instead." :-).
If you don't make threats, you're not left feeling you have to follow through on them. But if you do make one, there's no requirement that you have to follow through on it. I like the "better choice" idea: Is the better choice to follow through on the threat, or to say "I'm sorry I made that threat. Let's do '___' instead."?
Whenever you hear yourself thinking or saying "have to," stop and re-evaluate. You can *choose* to follow through on a threat, or you can *choose* not to. Thinking in terms of "choice" rather than "have to" unpaints you right out of that corner.
Glenda
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Schuyler
________________________________
I said in the original post that she does it while the CD or video are on, but after thinking about it, I'm pretty sure it's only when she is watching a video. My main issue is how to deal with it after it has happened
================================
It's better to deal with it before it happens. If it's happening at night it might be that she's afraid to go into the bathroom on her own at night. It may be that she needs you more than you think she does. If it is only happening when she's alone, don't let her be alone so much. Look at the situation when it is occuring and change that situation. She's little. She's 5.5 years old. She can totally agree with you when she isn't alone in her bedroom watching a video and needs to pee. Theoretically she's on board, but practically, in that moment, she's not old enough or mentally ready to make that kind of commitment. She isn't lying, and punishing isn't going to change why she's doing it.
"At this point I am usually downstairs working. She does not have a
problem with being upstairs with her brother while daddy and I are
downstairs."
She has a problem if she's peeing in her wardrobe or on her carpet only when she's left alone with her brother while you and daddy are downstairs.
Schuyler
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I said in the original post that she does it while the CD or video are on, but after thinking about it, I'm pretty sure it's only when she is watching a video. My main issue is how to deal with it after it has happened
================================
It's better to deal with it before it happens. If it's happening at night it might be that she's afraid to go into the bathroom on her own at night. It may be that she needs you more than you think she does. If it is only happening when she's alone, don't let her be alone so much. Look at the situation when it is occuring and change that situation. She's little. She's 5.5 years old. She can totally agree with you when she isn't alone in her bedroom watching a video and needs to pee. Theoretically she's on board, but practically, in that moment, she's not old enough or mentally ready to make that kind of commitment. She isn't lying, and punishing isn't going to change why she's doing it.
"At this point I am usually downstairs working. She does not have a
problem with being upstairs with her brother while daddy and I are
downstairs."
She has a problem if she's peeing in her wardrobe or on her carpet only when she's left alone with her brother while you and daddy are downstairs.
Schuyler
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boolahoop
==What about putting one of the small portable kid pottys in her room?
What about having a small tv or a CD player in the bathroom, if there's room for
them to be safely away from water?==
There is no chance of putting anything in our (tiny) bathroom, but we could put a potty in her bedroom. The problem started about a year ago when we took the potty out of her bedroom, as she kept hiding it, then it would end up getting spilt as no one knew it was there. I don't know why she started hiding it, but she was as school at the time so that may have something to do with it. I've been feeling guilty that she is doing it because she had a potty in her room so long and is used to doing it in there.
==I'm 46yrs old and am sometimes so engrossed in what I'm doing that I wait to go to the bathroom until the last minute!==
Thank you for pointing that out. I guess I do that too.
==Is the better choice to follow through on the threat, or to say "I'm sorry I made that threat. Let's do '___' instead."? ==
But what would I say in that kind of situation? She knows we need her to use the toilet when she needs to go, I just can't find anyway to make it okay to wee on her carpet.
Many thanks for your reply Glenda. x
What about having a small tv or a CD player in the bathroom, if there's room for
them to be safely away from water?==
There is no chance of putting anything in our (tiny) bathroom, but we could put a potty in her bedroom. The problem started about a year ago when we took the potty out of her bedroom, as she kept hiding it, then it would end up getting spilt as no one knew it was there. I don't know why she started hiding it, but she was as school at the time so that may have something to do with it. I've been feeling guilty that she is doing it because she had a potty in her room so long and is used to doing it in there.
==I'm 46yrs old and am sometimes so engrossed in what I'm doing that I wait to go to the bathroom until the last minute!==
Thank you for pointing that out. I guess I do that too.
==Is the better choice to follow through on the threat, or to say "I'm sorry I made that threat. Let's do '___' instead."? ==
But what would I say in that kind of situation? She knows we need her to use the toilet when she needs to go, I just can't find anyway to make it okay to wee on her carpet.
Many thanks for your reply Glenda. x
boolahoop
==If it's happening at night it might be that she's afraid to go into the bathroom on her own at night==
I just don't think that's it. She is ok to use the bathroom if the TV is not on.
I just don't think that's it. She is ok to use the bathroom if the TV is not on.
Schuyler
But there is no relationship with her hiding her pee, peeing in her room, peeing on her carpet, peeing in her wardrobe and you being downstairs at night? She'd do it if you were in the room watching the video with her?
It doesn't really matter if it's fear or inconvenience or whatever that's the cause. She's not ready, for whatever reason, to go pee at night not in her room. You need to work with her, be by her side helping her to take care of this basic need. Often the easiest solution to any problem that a child is having is more love, more time, more care, more attention. Give her more attention.
________________________________
==If it's happening at night it might be that she's afraid to go into the bathroom on her own at night==
I just don't think that's it. She is ok to use the bathroom if the TV is not on.
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It doesn't really matter if it's fear or inconvenience or whatever that's the cause. She's not ready, for whatever reason, to go pee at night not in her room. You need to work with her, be by her side helping her to take care of this basic need. Often the easiest solution to any problem that a child is having is more love, more time, more care, more attention. Give her more attention.
________________________________
==If it's happening at night it might be that she's afraid to go into the bathroom on her own at night==
I just don't think that's it. She is ok to use the bathroom if the TV is not on.
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Yahoo! Groups Links
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 11, 2012, at 6:29 AM, boolahoop wrote:
But if something wrong is repeatedly happening, it means you're not being proactive enough. Don't set your children up to fail, as Pam says. Since she's not responding to the situation appropriately, you need to change the situation to one she can handle. And you need to be more present to help her.
Joyce
> My main issue is how to deal with it after it has happenedAfter something unfortunate has happened, the most relationship building, most learningful reaction is being as sympathetic and understanding of the child's feelings as she needs you to be and then focusing on cleaning up the mess.
But if something wrong is repeatedly happening, it means you're not being proactive enough. Don't set your children up to fail, as Pam says. Since she's not responding to the situation appropriately, you need to change the situation to one she can handle. And you need to be more present to help her.
> But what would I say in that kind of situation? She knowsReframe it. You *don't* need her to use the toilet. You need her to not pee in the wardrobe or under the bed. Find other options. There are big plastic backed absorbent sheets for puppies. There are portable potties. There are other fun things to pee in. There are large diapers. Don't' dismiss any of them. Offer them as options so *she* can play around and find something that works for her. Think outside the box. Think in terms of a world of possibilities rather than limiting her to the one solution you want that she isn't able to do. Change yourself rather than trying to change her. Change the environment and atmosphere to one where she can find something that works for her rather than limiting her to an environment she's having a hard time navigating.
> we need her to use the toilet when she needs to go, I just
> can't find anyway to make it okay to wee on her carpet.
> we took the potty out of her bedroom, as she kept hidingBut you did know it was there. You chose not to go looking for it.
> it, then it would end up getting spilt as no one knew it was there.
> I've been feeling guilty that she is doing it because she hadI think you should feel guilty for taking away something that worked (if you'd looked each day to find it before it spilled). Bring it back. Offer sweetly and without suggesting any of them are shameful other options she could try. Keep working with her. Stop seeing *her* as the problem. Be her partner in trying to find a solution that fits her needs in a way that avoids the problems you want to stop. The more options you give her, the less pressure you put on her to accept *your* solution (and thus putting obstacles before it), the sooner she will likely choose the standard solution.
> a potty in her room so long and is used to doing it in there.
Joyce
boolahoop
==> But there is no relationship with her hiding her pee, peeing in her room, peeing on her carpet, peeing in her wardrobe and you being downstairs at night? She'd do it if you were in the room watching the video with her?
>The last time she did it, I was in her bed with her, went downstairs for whatever reason for about half an hour, came back up and got back in the bed with her, the next day I found she'd wee'd under her beanbag. Last night she had no TV (as is typical) and I went to the hospital to be with my Grandad, and she wee'd on the toilet (as is typical) I really don't think it's an issue of love
>
> It doesn't really matter if it's fear or inconvenience or whatever that's the cause. She's not ready, for whatever reason, to go pee at night not in her room. You need to work with her, be by her side helping her to take care of this basic need. Often the easiest solution to any problem that a child is having is more love, more time, more care, more attention. Give her more attention. ==
>
boolahoop
==Reframe it. You *don't* need her to use the toilet. You need her to not pee in the wardrobe or under the bed==
Good point, thank you.
==I think you should feel guilty for taking away something that worked (if you'd looked each day to find it before it spilled). ==
But how do we move on? Surely it's the same as moving on to solid food, or coming out of nappies at night, or any other step we take to growing up?
The potty would get spilt because she would hide it so far under her bed and put things on top and in front of it, it would get spilt in the process of finding it. I thought she was ashamed of using it (her friends would often comment on it) and I thought I was helping her by getting rid of it.
So, are you saying it would be best to let her have the TV again, and offer her a solution to the weeing, rather than trying to stop the weeing by taking away the television?
Good point, thank you.
==I think you should feel guilty for taking away something that worked (if you'd looked each day to find it before it spilled). ==
But how do we move on? Surely it's the same as moving on to solid food, or coming out of nappies at night, or any other step we take to growing up?
The potty would get spilt because she would hide it so far under her bed and put things on top and in front of it, it would get spilt in the process of finding it. I thought she was ashamed of using it (her friends would often comment on it) and I thought I was helping her by getting rid of it.
So, are you saying it would be best to let her have the TV again, and offer her a solution to the weeing, rather than trying to stop the weeing by taking away the television?
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 11, 2012, at 8:55 AM, boolahoop wrote:
===================
> The last time she did it, I was in her bed with her, went downstairs for whatever reason for about half an hour, came back up and got back in the bed with her, the next day I found she'd wee'd under her beanbag. Last night she had no TV (as is typical) and I went to the hospital to be with my Grandad, and she wee'd on the toilet (as is typical) I really don't think it's an issue of love
===================
Maybe you won't be able to figure out why. What you do know is that the situation as it is now is causing your daughter to fail in your eyes and causing her stress.
Your focus right now is on fixing her, stopping her, changing her to be right in your eyes.
Instead give her other options. Be with her more. Instead of leaving her you could have waiting for a moment to pause the video and asked her if she'd like to come with you or go to the bathroom. If she had a potty in the bedroom, she could have used that if she didn't want to leave.
You're clarifications are suggesting that if you keep explaining, making the situation clearer to us, that we'll finally realize that you're right, that she needs fixed. But the people replying here aren't seeing the situation through your emotional "i'm right and she's wrong" glasses. They're seeing through your daughter's eyes and trying to help you do that too so that you can help her where she is rather than trying to move her to where you are.
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=- the reason she does it in her bedroom is because she is watching a video or listening to a CD and doesn't want to stop. I do have a problem with this reasoning because she will be quite happy to pause what she is doing to come downstairs.-=-
But the problem with reasoning is yours, not hers.
She told you she doesn't want to pause, but it must be something different.
-=-it gave her so much joy we let her keep it) which has caused her a lot of distress, but ...-=-
doesn't match
-=-I now realise the episodes are a lot shorter when I am kind and supportive of her.-=-
But if she will go to the bathroom and not in the front room when the TV is in there, perhaps (just maybe) having her sleep elsewhere for a while would keep her from going in her room.
Or asking her to wear diapers at night so she doesn't need to get up and go to the bathroom might help. She might go with it for a while, or she might object, but it WOULD be an alternative, and if she's rejecting "pause and go to the toilet," another alternative might help (and will probably lead to "pause and go to the toilet," but at least it would be her own choice).
Maybe you could put down the kinds of pads they put in hospital beds, and let her go on that if she needs to go in her room. Put it in a corner, like you might put newspaper down for puppies, but don't do it meanly or sarcastically. Just as a possible option.
Perhaps she's feeling like the only way she wins is to go in her room, and if she goes to the toilet, you win and she loses. Maybe not, but it's worth a thought.
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
Sandra
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But the problem with reasoning is yours, not hers.
She told you she doesn't want to pause, but it must be something different.
-=-it gave her so much joy we let her keep it) which has caused her a lot of distress, but ...-=-
doesn't match
-=-I now realise the episodes are a lot shorter when I am kind and supportive of her.-=-
But if she will go to the bathroom and not in the front room when the TV is in there, perhaps (just maybe) having her sleep elsewhere for a while would keep her from going in her room.
Or asking her to wear diapers at night so she doesn't need to get up and go to the bathroom might help. She might go with it for a while, or she might object, but it WOULD be an alternative, and if she's rejecting "pause and go to the toilet," another alternative might help (and will probably lead to "pause and go to the toilet," but at least it would be her own choice).
Maybe you could put down the kinds of pads they put in hospital beds, and let her go on that if she needs to go in her room. Put it in a corner, like you might put newspaper down for puppies, but don't do it meanly or sarcastically. Just as a possible option.
Perhaps she's feeling like the only way she wins is to go in her room, and if she goes to the toilet, you win and she loses. Maybe not, but it's worth a thought.
http://sandradodd.com/partners/child
Sandra
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Joyce Fetteroll
On Jan 11, 2012, at 9:39 AM, boolahoop wrote:
Did you get upset when you found it? If so, that would encourage her to hide it even better. You could calmly ask her to get it. You could casually ask her to empty it. You could rearrange things so it can't go so far under that you can't reach it.
It's really a good to involve kids in decisions like this instead of deciding for them. I know it's hard to switch gears since moms have to guess what kids need from the moment their kids are born, but the sooner you draw her into the decision making process, the more connected you'll be and the better you'll get at being where she is rather than thinking from where you want her to be.
Joyce
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> ==I think you should feel guilty for taking away something that worked (if you'd looked each day to find it before it spilled). =="We" don't move on. She moves on when she's ready.
>
> But how do we move on?
> Surely it's the same as moving on to solid food, or comingDid you take away her milk or diapers when you thought she should be ready? (Some parents do. And some parents have lousy relationships with their kids.) Or did you do it at her pace when she was ready? And was it an all at once transition? With no retreats? (If so it might make you think that all transitions are only forward and never back and forth for a while.)
> out of nappies at night, or any other step we take to growing up?
> The potty would get spilt because she would hide it so far under her bedBut you knew it was in her room, right?
Did you get upset when you found it? If so, that would encourage her to hide it even better. You could calmly ask her to get it. You could casually ask her to empty it. You could rearrange things so it can't go so far under that you can't reach it.
> I thought she was ashamed of using it (her friends wouldMaybe. But if she's hiding it so thoroughly it's more likely she was trying to avoid your reaction. Parents want kids to avoid the parents' reaction by stopping what they're doing. Sometimes it works. Sometimes, when the need is strong and a child doesn't see another acceptable solution, the reaction drives the behavior into hiding.
> often comment on it) and I thought I was helping her by getting rid of it.
It's really a good to involve kids in decisions like this instead of deciding for them. I know it's hard to switch gears since moms have to guess what kids need from the moment their kids are born, but the sooner you draw her into the decision making process, the more connected you'll be and the better you'll get at being where she is rather than thinking from where you want her to be.
> So, are you saying it would be best to let her have the TV again,I'd can't' tell you that. If it didn't work, then it would be my fault ;-) I can tell you to sweetly offer more options. I can tell you to be where she is more and be her partner in finding a solution that works for her rather than trying to get her to conform to your solution.
> and offer her a solution to the weeing, rather than trying to stop
> the weeing by taking away the television?
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=-Thinking in terms of "choice" rather than "have to" unpaints you right out of that corner.-=-
I like "unpaints" a lot. :-)
Turs out we CAN sometimes "rewind."
-=-I said in the original post that she does it while the CD or video are on, but after thinking about it, I'm pretty sure it's only when she is watching a video. My main issue is how to deal with it after it has happened -=-
Really? The answer you want is how to deal with a puddle on a carpet? Get the baking-soda based powder that will soak it up and de-stink it, and then you vacuum up what's left later when it's dry.
Then the answer might be, "Feel entirely responsible as though you did it yourself, because you were unwilling to let people help you figure out how to figure out the causes."
That's not going to come out with any happiness as it would if i could have said it to you in person, and I WOULD have said it to you in person, but in person I don't think you would've insisted that your "main issue" was something besides figuring out how to have a better partnership with your daughter.
If you have a question, but you tell us what answer you want, you're unnecessarily limiting (or trying to; you won't succeed) the advice you could get from knowledgeable people who are volunteering their time to help you.
But the other thing is that there are lots of people reading here. Hundreds, and maybe over three thousand (though I doubt that; some join and wander away). And some of them will read something here that will help them. So once the question is out here, it's no longer yours to direct.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning (see the yellow box near the bottom).
Sandra
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I like "unpaints" a lot. :-)
Turs out we CAN sometimes "rewind."
-=-I said in the original post that she does it while the CD or video are on, but after thinking about it, I'm pretty sure it's only when she is watching a video. My main issue is how to deal with it after it has happened -=-
Really? The answer you want is how to deal with a puddle on a carpet? Get the baking-soda based powder that will soak it up and de-stink it, and then you vacuum up what's left later when it's dry.
Then the answer might be, "Feel entirely responsible as though you did it yourself, because you were unwilling to let people help you figure out how to figure out the causes."
That's not going to come out with any happiness as it would if i could have said it to you in person, and I WOULD have said it to you in person, but in person I don't think you would've insisted that your "main issue" was something besides figuring out how to have a better partnership with your daughter.
If you have a question, but you tell us what answer you want, you're unnecessarily limiting (or trying to; you won't succeed) the advice you could get from knowledgeable people who are volunteering their time to help you.
But the other thing is that there are lots of people reading here. Hundreds, and maybe over three thousand (though I doubt that; some join and wander away). And some of them will read something here that will help them. So once the question is out here, it's no longer yours to direct.
http://sandradodd.com/lists/alwayslearning (see the yellow box near the bottom).
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-The last time she did it, I was in her bed with her, went downstairs for whatever reason for about half an hour, came back up and got back in the bed with her, the next day I found she'd wee'd under her beanbag.-=-
Do you think she did it while you were gone for half an hour?
-=- Last night she had no TV (as is typical) and I went to the hospital to be with my Grandad, and she wee'd on the toilet (as is typical) I really don't think it's an issue of love-=-
Why does she need to sleep in a room by herself? Could she sleep with you and your husband in your room?
http://sandradodd.com/sleep/cosleeping
Maybe it's an issue of her trying to communicate something and you saying "it's not that" (whatever it might be).
Can she watch videos next to you while you're working downstairs? With headphones maybe?
Or would having a video on where you are be more work and distraction than cleaning up pee and the eventual cost of a new carpet?
If she's very verbal, maybe have a friend of yours talk to her about it. Maybe she's unwilling or unable to talk to you about it, perhaps because of previous reactions. If you left the room, she took a whiz and covered it with a beanbag, that wasn't an accident, was it?
If she's not very verbal, take it as communication for sure.
I'd say rearrange the house and video station and her sleeping arrangements for a while.
Sandra
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Do you think she did it while you were gone for half an hour?
-=- Last night she had no TV (as is typical) and I went to the hospital to be with my Grandad, and she wee'd on the toilet (as is typical) I really don't think it's an issue of love-=-
Why does she need to sleep in a room by herself? Could she sleep with you and your husband in your room?
http://sandradodd.com/sleep/cosleeping
Maybe it's an issue of her trying to communicate something and you saying "it's not that" (whatever it might be).
Can she watch videos next to you while you're working downstairs? With headphones maybe?
Or would having a video on where you are be more work and distraction than cleaning up pee and the eventual cost of a new carpet?
If she's very verbal, maybe have a friend of yours talk to her about it. Maybe she's unwilling or unable to talk to you about it, perhaps because of previous reactions. If you left the room, she took a whiz and covered it with a beanbag, that wasn't an accident, was it?
If she's not very verbal, take it as communication for sure.
I'd say rearrange the house and video station and her sleeping arrangements for a while.
Sandra
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BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
The last time she did it, I was in her bed with her, went downstairs for whatever reason for about half an hour, came back up and got back in the bed with her, the next day I found she'd wee'd under her beanbag. Last night she had no TV (as is typical) and I went to the hospital to be with my Grandad, and she wee'd on the toilet (as is typical) I really don't think it's an issue of love
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
It is clearly an issue of her being alone and needing more support and presence. You are fighting everyone on that one.
Alex Polikowsky
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-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
It is clearly an issue of her being alone and needing more support and presence. You are fighting everyone on that one.
Alex Polikowsky
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Schuyler
>>The potty would get spilt because she would hide it so far under her bed and put things on top and in front of it, it would get spilt in theprocess of finding it. I thought she was ashamed of using it (her
friends would often comment on it) and I thought I was helping her by
getting rid of it.<<
Good intentions sometimes have to be rethought. You could build a potty tidy for her. A little cupboard where it was easy to store and use and would be easy for you to check. People have had toilets under beds for a long time. Better than running out to the outhouse on a cold night. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_pot has a picture of a lovely Japanese chamber pot. Oh, here's an image of Winston Churchill's chamber pot: http://toilet-guru.com/churchill.php
As for peeing in the wardrobe, historically the ammonia was thought to kill fleas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garderobe, so storing clothes in the cupboard, closet where your toilet was kept was appropriate for the time. Maybe she's just a little behind the times...
Schuyler
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Sandra Dodd
-=But how do we move on? Surely it's the same as moving on to solid food, or coming out of nappies at night, or any other step we take to growing up? -=-
Sure, and sometimes those have one step forward and two steps back.
Sometimes solid food is too early, and the kids go back to more nursing.
Sometimes the nappies come off too soon, and need to be revisited.
Beware of this: "or any other step we take to growing up"
Life does not pass through a person like earth through a worm.
Each person is whole and learning.
If you look at "whole and learning" rather than "taking steps to grow up," you might not need any more of this discussion.
Sandra
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Sure, and sometimes those have one step forward and two steps back.
Sometimes solid food is too early, and the kids go back to more nursing.
Sometimes the nappies come off too soon, and need to be revisited.
Beware of this: "or any other step we take to growing up"
Life does not pass through a person like earth through a worm.
Each person is whole and learning.
If you look at "whole and learning" rather than "taking steps to grow up," you might not need any more of this discussion.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=-> So, are you saying it would be best to let her have the TV again,
Very often, people come here to ask us to help their children be more like our children, to help their families be more like our families.
Maybe always.
The answer is very often, or always, "become a different sort of parent."
But it's not a huge transformation all at once we're asking people to consider. It's to read a little, try a little, wait a while and watch. It's to make conscious decisions, decisions that lead more toward peace, understanding, learning, good relationships.
And sometimes moms get cranky about that, because all they wanted was a simple answer to a simple question. "NOW WHAT?"
The other day at the symposium here, part of my intro was this (and this is my notes, so some of it was longer when I spoke):
----------------
People think there is some Magic Installation of unschooling, like getting nails done, or tires rotated.
They don't expect it to take much longer than transferring a child to a new school.
"I need to know exactly how to unschool.
But hurry, because I have to go, and I don't have time to read much."
There is no quick or magical installation of unschooling.
The magic is that there are others who will share what they know, but there is no installation.
All learning takes place inside the learner,
learning to BE an unschooler
learning to SEE natural learning
learning not to get in the way of natural learning
involve changing the parent you are, and the person you are.
We can't do it for you, but we can lay out an array of the tools we used,
and the tricks we learned,
and you might see a way to make tools like those
for yourself and your family.
Sandra
> and offer her a solution to the weeing, rather than trying to stop-=-I'd can't' tell you that. If it didn't work, then it would be my fault ;-) I can tell you to sweetly offer more options. I can tell you to be where she is more and be her partner in finding a solution that works for her rather than trying to get her to conform to your solution.-=-
> the weeing by taking away the television?
Very often, people come here to ask us to help their children be more like our children, to help their families be more like our families.
Maybe always.
The answer is very often, or always, "become a different sort of parent."
But it's not a huge transformation all at once we're asking people to consider. It's to read a little, try a little, wait a while and watch. It's to make conscious decisions, decisions that lead more toward peace, understanding, learning, good relationships.
And sometimes moms get cranky about that, because all they wanted was a simple answer to a simple question. "NOW WHAT?"
The other day at the symposium here, part of my intro was this (and this is my notes, so some of it was longer when I spoke):
----------------
People think there is some Magic Installation of unschooling, like getting nails done, or tires rotated.
They don't expect it to take much longer than transferring a child to a new school.
"I need to know exactly how to unschool.
But hurry, because I have to go, and I don't have time to read much."
There is no quick or magical installation of unschooling.
The magic is that there are others who will share what they know, but there is no installation.
All learning takes place inside the learner,
learning to BE an unschooler
learning to SEE natural learning
learning not to get in the way of natural learning
involve changing the parent you are, and the person you are.
We can't do it for you, but we can lay out an array of the tools we used,
and the tricks we learned,
and you might see a way to make tools like those
for yourself and your family.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
-=-You're clarifications are suggesting that if you keep explaining, making the situation clearer to us, that we'll finally realize that you're right, that she needs fixed. But the people replying here aren't seeing the situation through your emotional "i'm right and she's wrong" glasses. They're seeing through your daughter's eyes and trying to help you do that too so that you can help her where she is rather than trying to move her to where you are.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/being/with
If reading here can help a mother be closer to her child, in a compassionate way, we never even need to know it happened.
Contrary to some people's beliefs in heated moments, this list doesn't exist to piss parents off, but to help them see how close they are to a happier life with their children most of us will never ever meet.
But if a parent gets pissed off in the face of advice about how to become closer to a child, how guilty should the rest of us feel?
I know it's hard to change one's stance.
I also know that without change, unschooling won't work.
And no matter how much people come here to ask about details of personal situations, the answers will all be about unschooling, because that's the purpose of the existence of the discussion in the first place. And unschooling is about learning, naturally; and about the relationships that help that work; and about the joy and peace that can come after that learning and those relationships start to work well.
Sandra
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http://sandradodd.com/being/with
If reading here can help a mother be closer to her child, in a compassionate way, we never even need to know it happened.
Contrary to some people's beliefs in heated moments, this list doesn't exist to piss parents off, but to help them see how close they are to a happier life with their children most of us will never ever meet.
But if a parent gets pissed off in the face of advice about how to become closer to a child, how guilty should the rest of us feel?
I know it's hard to change one's stance.
I also know that without change, unschooling won't work.
And no matter how much people come here to ask about details of personal situations, the answers will all be about unschooling, because that's the purpose of the existence of the discussion in the first place. And unschooling is about learning, naturally; and about the relationships that help that work; and about the joy and peace that can come after that learning and those relationships start to work well.
Sandra
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Deb Lewis
***I would like to ask for some advice on how to handle this situation, as I can't seem to stop myself getting very cross with her for this, but getting cross does not help. ***
Give her TV back and get a potty for her room. Check on her very frequently, check the potty very frequently, be sweet.
Stay with her until she’s asleep and go with her to the potty when/if she needs to go.
Put the TV where she can see it from the toilet and from the bed. Get a mirror, maybe, if that will make it work.
I was afraid of the noise the toilet made but would get in trouble if I didn’t flush. Let her know it’s ok to use the toilet and not flush. (And then you check it and flush)
She’s not ready to use the toilet by herself all the time. You can’t make her ready. You *can* help her be comfortable until she’s ready to use the toilet every time. Be with her more. Don’t leave her on her own at those times you know she’s likely to need the toilet.
If you find she’s gone under the bed or in the wardrobe clean it up and be kind.
You can take out a damaged carpet for free but a damaged relationship will cost both of you a lot.
Deb Lewis
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Give her TV back and get a potty for her room. Check on her very frequently, check the potty very frequently, be sweet.
Stay with her until she’s asleep and go with her to the potty when/if she needs to go.
Put the TV where she can see it from the toilet and from the bed. Get a mirror, maybe, if that will make it work.
I was afraid of the noise the toilet made but would get in trouble if I didn’t flush. Let her know it’s ok to use the toilet and not flush. (And then you check it and flush)
She’s not ready to use the toilet by herself all the time. You can’t make her ready. You *can* help her be comfortable until she’s ready to use the toilet every time. Be with her more. Don’t leave her on her own at those times you know she’s likely to need the toilet.
If you find she’s gone under the bed or in the wardrobe clean it up and be kind.
You can take out a damaged carpet for free but a damaged relationship will cost both of you a lot.
Deb Lewis
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Pam Sorooshian
You said, "She's okay with it," but clearly that's not true or you wouldn't
be seeing this behavior. The behavior is communication that something is
not okay.
When nothing seems to be working, usually the best option is to take a step
back and change the circumstances or environment in some say.
My guess is that she feels just a little weirded-out (as my kids would say)
upstairs while you're far away. She's okay with the tv on - the sound and
images are "company" - but going into her bathroom alone is just a little
to far beyond her comfort level. She might not even have this articulated
inside her own head - just nebulous feelings, not thoughts.
Can she watch tv downstairs, instead? Can you make her a little tv-watching
nest somewhere near you so she can be all secure and warm and feel
connected.
She does it when you're not there or when you leave.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
be seeing this behavior. The behavior is communication that something is
not okay.
When nothing seems to be working, usually the best option is to take a step
back and change the circumstances or environment in some say.
My guess is that she feels just a little weirded-out (as my kids would say)
upstairs while you're far away. She's okay with the tv on - the sound and
images are "company" - but going into her bathroom alone is just a little
to far beyond her comfort level. She might not even have this articulated
inside her own head - just nebulous feelings, not thoughts.
Can she watch tv downstairs, instead? Can you make her a little tv-watching
nest somewhere near you so she can be all secure and warm and feel
connected.
She does it when you're not there or when you leave.
-pam
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Pam Sorooshian
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 11:43 AM, Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...>wrote:
-pam
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> >>>When nothing seems to be working, usually the best option is to take aThat should have ended with, "in some way."
> step back and change the circumstances or environment in some say.>>>
-pam
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Glenda
I said: ==Is the better choice to follow through on the threat, or to say "I'm sorry I made that threat. Let's do '___' instead."?===
The original poster asked: ===But what would I say in that kind of situation? She knows we need her to
use the toilet when she needs to go, I just can't find anyway to make
it okay to wee on her carpet.===
As to what to say in that kind of situation, I'd put the tv back, with a heartfelt apology: "I know how much you enjoy your tv. I'm so sorry I took it away."
If you offer other options (and there have been lots of good ones suggested), and if your daughter begins to feel she will not be punished for not peeing where you want her to pee, peeing on the carpet will likely become a non-issue. Be patient. Be compassionate. She's not doing this *to you*. It's about her, not about you, not about the carpet.
Lastly, something that is as helpful to me today as it was when we were new to unschooling is to stop and pay attention when I find myself saying (or typing, or thinking) "yeah, but...". For me, it's a pretty good indicator that I'm not being open to other ideas and other perspectives on a situation. You've received a lot of replies and a lot of good ideas -- re-read them and mull them over for a couple days. Every time you start thinking, "yeah, but...", about the suggestions that've been made, stop and ask yourself "why not?".
We're not encouraging you to encourage her to pee on the carpet; we're encouraging you to not let this be about the carpet or about what you want her to do. Peeing on the carpet is the indicator that something needs to be changed up, that how things are right now are not working for her.
Glenda
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The original poster asked: ===But what would I say in that kind of situation? She knows we need her to
use the toilet when she needs to go, I just can't find anyway to make
it okay to wee on her carpet.===
As to what to say in that kind of situation, I'd put the tv back, with a heartfelt apology: "I know how much you enjoy your tv. I'm so sorry I took it away."
If you offer other options (and there have been lots of good ones suggested), and if your daughter begins to feel she will not be punished for not peeing where you want her to pee, peeing on the carpet will likely become a non-issue. Be patient. Be compassionate. She's not doing this *to you*. It's about her, not about you, not about the carpet.
Lastly, something that is as helpful to me today as it was when we were new to unschooling is to stop and pay attention when I find myself saying (or typing, or thinking) "yeah, but...". For me, it's a pretty good indicator that I'm not being open to other ideas and other perspectives on a situation. You've received a lot of replies and a lot of good ideas -- re-read them and mull them over for a couple days. Every time you start thinking, "yeah, but...", about the suggestions that've been made, stop and ask yourself "why not?".
We're not encouraging you to encourage her to pee on the carpet; we're encouraging you to not let this be about the carpet or about what you want her to do. Peeing on the carpet is the indicator that something needs to be changed up, that how things are right now are not working for her.
Glenda
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Pam Sorooshian
I had an offlist email from Becca that clarified this. They had been
restricting tv to once a week and she only did this urinating around the
room during that time. So - a once a week problem. At this point, they have
taken the tv away from her altogether, so they don't have the urinating
problem anymore.
-pam
restricting tv to once a week and she only did this urinating around the
room during that time. So - a once a week problem. At this point, they have
taken the tv away from her altogether, so they don't have the urinating
problem anymore.
-pam
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 3:29 AM, boolahoop <becca@...> wrote:
> She watches video's/listens to a story CD when she is going to sleep,
> after I have read and sung to her. At this point I am usually downstairs
> working. She does not have a problem with being upstairs with her brother
> while daddy and I are downstairs.
>
> I said in the original post that she does it while the CD or video are on,
> but after thinking about it, I'm pretty sure it's only when she is watching
> a video. My main issue is how to deal with it after it has happened
>
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Vicki Dennis
On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 8:39 AM, boolahoop <becca@...> wrote:
that first you took away the potty, then you took away the TV. She might
wonder what else is about to disappear.
Have you considered putting the potty somewhere not easily visible but
not so "hidden" that it is difficult to find it to empty. Perhaps in the
closet? Or creating a curtained off dressing area that includes the toilet?
By the way, are you willing to empty it as soon as it is used? Not
letting it fill up? That might cut back on any spillage. As well as cut
back on any friends comments. Particularly if when she is not using it a
larger doll or teddy bear or such uses it as a seat :-).
vicki
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> **away the television is not addressing her issues. In fact, it struck me
>
>
>
>
> So, are you saying it would be best to let her have the TV again, and
> offer her a solution to the weeing, rather than trying to stop the weeing
> by taking away the television?
>
>
>
> Absolutely. Especially since from your examples it appears that taking
that first you took away the potty, then you took away the TV. She might
wonder what else is about to disappear.
Have you considered putting the potty somewhere not easily visible but
not so "hidden" that it is difficult to find it to empty. Perhaps in the
closet? Or creating a curtained off dressing area that includes the toilet?
By the way, are you willing to empty it as soon as it is used? Not
letting it fill up? That might cut back on any spillage. As well as cut
back on any friends comments. Particularly if when she is not using it a
larger doll or teddy bear or such uses it as a seat :-).
vicki
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Sandra Dodd
I would like to thank everyone who responded in this topic so thoughtfully and generously. Don't worry too much more about it, as the original question wasn't presented in such a way that we could really have helped.
Please, everyone, remember that this list is for unschooling discussion, not for advice from unschoolers to be applied to families who are being restrictive and harsh with their children. You can't very well mix the two and have good results.
I don't mind if people aren't unschoolers. I have no expectation that the whole world will be unschoolers. I do have an expectation that people who come to this list will have read the front page.
How about every single person go and read that now?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
If anyone is offended by my having asked you to go and read that, click the link above anyway. In the upper left after your name, it says "Edit Membership."
Click that.
You might need to widen the screen,
but at the bottom right there is a box that says
Leave Group.
Cick that.
I would rather have fifty people on the list who actually want to share information honestly than three thousand who don't care what the list owner and moderators intended for the group.
Sandra
Please, everyone, remember that this list is for unschooling discussion, not for advice from unschoolers to be applied to families who are being restrictive and harsh with their children. You can't very well mix the two and have good results.
I don't mind if people aren't unschoolers. I have no expectation that the whole world will be unschoolers. I do have an expectation that people who come to this list will have read the front page.
How about every single person go and read that now?
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/
If anyone is offended by my having asked you to go and read that, click the link above anyway. In the upper left after your name, it says "Edit Membership."
Click that.
You might need to widen the screen,
but at the bottom right there is a box that says
Leave Group.
Cick that.
I would rather have fifty people on the list who actually want to share information honestly than three thousand who don't care what the list owner and moderators intended for the group.
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
This might have come to me accidentally, but I'm not interested in side conversations. It's a better use of my time to write to the group, and better for individuals to get more than one person's advice.
-=-Sorry Sandra, I did think I was clear that she does not watch TV every night, but after re-reading my posts today I realise I was not.-=-
That was sent to me.
What was sent to Pam, another moderator, was this:
-=- I feel maybe I was not clear in my original post; we would only allow her to watch TV once a week (my OH�s rules, it�s the compromise of her having the TV in her room), and it is only when she has the TV that she wee�s in her room, the rest of the time she seems happy to use the bathroom. That is why I have taken the television away, I just feel mean for doing that, but do not want to get cross with her either. I guess I can�t have my cake and eat it?-=-
Here's the rest of what was sent to me.
-=-Unfortunately my children�s father is a worrier and does not have an awful lot of faith in our children to �let them be�, So I give them as much freedom as I can during the day, but when he is home from work we do have to live by his rules. He doesn�t see himself as mean or harsh, he thinks he is doing the best by his children. I do realise this means we will never be unschoolers by your standard.
I did read the front page twice and thought about it for 2 weeks before I posted, I did not mean to mislead anyone.
-=-I�m going to keep the TV away, as the advice I have received leads me to believe it is kinder not to have it at all, than to gift it to her with restrictions. Although she did seem happier to have it sometimes than not at all, but I guess she will forget about it in time.-=-
=======
I think "OH" meant "DH"? Husband, I guess.
When Keith and I were in our 20's, we had a neighbor with a big cartoonish sheepdog, and I only saw that dog when we went to their door for some reason. Their grown son hung out with us, so we would go there to pick him up sometimes. That dog really wanted me to pet it, and I really wanted to know that dog. They never took it for a walk, I never saw it out at all. But the dog would jump toward me, or come toward me all tail-wagging, and if I reached out to pet it they would yell "No, don't pet him!" and he would pee. He was SO EXCITED that someone new wanted to touch him that he would wet himself right there.
If they had taken the dog out, let him see other people and other dogs, let him visit the neighbors, let me pet him, he would have stopped doing that. He was needy of touch and attention and knowledge. He wanted to smell me, he wanted to see how I was. He didn't want to pee on me, or himself.
Children want input. They want to learn. They want to explore, and make choices. They want to feel loved and safe and protected and provided for.
Would a person leave an attractive book in a child's room and say "you cannot open that except once a week," would that make sense? Kind or cruel?
If someone left a toy out by a baby and slapped his hand every time he reached for it except one night a week, would that be generous to let him touch it one night a week, or just an act of lunacy on the part of the parent?
If someone left food near a hungry person and told him NO arbitrarily, would ANYONE think it was not mean or harsh?
If someone puts a television in the room of a young child and it sits there night after night and she can't use it, and then one night a week she can, that is sadistic and no one should be surprised if the child pees like a sheepdog who has never been touched by a kind stranger.
-=-Sorry Sandra, I did think I was clear that she does not watch TV every night, but after re-reading my posts today I realise I was not.-=-
There is a difference between the technicality of having said so and the honest report of WHY that is.
My kids don't watch TV every night and never did, but it when they didn't watch TV it was because they wanted to do something else more than that. It was their choice. If your daughter "does not watch TV every night" because of arbitrary restriction, it's not nearly the same thing.
-=-So I give them as much freedom as I can during the day, but when he is home from work we do have to live by his rules. He doesn�t see himself as mean or harsh, he thinks he is doing the best by his children. I do realise this means we will never be unschoolers by your standard.-=-
Have you no influence with him at all?
-=- I do realise this means we will never be unschoolers by your standard.-=-
It's not "my standard" to think about, it's whether you're being logical and compassionate or not. If I had never been born your child would still be reacting horribly to your restrictions. Don't try to make it about me. And why are you saying "Never"? Do you expect to allow freedom in the day and then change the rules at night always? What kinds of relationships will that create? What kinds of relationships do you have now?
Without being able to see something clearly enough to describe it clearly, there is no clarity at all.
Asking us for advice about the aftermath of a problem that is being plainly caused by cruel and arbitrary restrictions seems like asking plumbers what to do after your toilet overflows, because it overflows every time you flush it. If the plumbers talk to you about adjusting the float, or having the line snaked, or replacing the toilet, would you say "No, just tell me how to clean up the mess on the floor"?
Read this. Show it to your husband. Print it out and read it aloud to him if he won't read it otherwise.
http://sandradodd.com/t/economics
If you let your daughter watch all the TV (videos, whatever) she wants, as much as she wants, she will stop peeing on the floor.
If you let your daughter watch all the TV (videos, whatever) she wants, she won't watch it every night forever.
And what's this with "night"? Why can't she watch it as soon as she wakes up? Why can't she fall asleep watching it?
What would be better than all that would be you watching it with her, her dad watching it with her, laughing together, seeing what she likes and what she's learning. If you can't do that, I think you will never be unschoolers to anyone's standards.
The fears are wrong.
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
The damage is very, very real and will get worse if you continue as you are going. I don't think you're being honest with your husband. You weren't honest with us.
You said this wasn't about love.
You're not seeing clearly.
Your daughter is not being shown love. She is being shown cruelty and capricious whim.
-=-I guess I can�t have my cake and eat it?-=--=-
What cake? There is no up side to your current situation.
You will be happier if your daughter becomes happier. Your husband will be happier if he can see that you and your daughter can be happier and more at peace with movies on than not. She wants to learn. She wants to be with you. She doesn't want to be afraid or told no, no, no. She's displaying healthier behavior than her parents are, it seems, but you can turn that around.
Sandra
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-=-Sorry Sandra, I did think I was clear that she does not watch TV every night, but after re-reading my posts today I realise I was not.-=-
That was sent to me.
What was sent to Pam, another moderator, was this:
-=- I feel maybe I was not clear in my original post; we would only allow her to watch TV once a week (my OH�s rules, it�s the compromise of her having the TV in her room), and it is only when she has the TV that she wee�s in her room, the rest of the time she seems happy to use the bathroom. That is why I have taken the television away, I just feel mean for doing that, but do not want to get cross with her either. I guess I can�t have my cake and eat it?-=-
Here's the rest of what was sent to me.
-=-Unfortunately my children�s father is a worrier and does not have an awful lot of faith in our children to �let them be�, So I give them as much freedom as I can during the day, but when he is home from work we do have to live by his rules. He doesn�t see himself as mean or harsh, he thinks he is doing the best by his children. I do realise this means we will never be unschoolers by your standard.
I did read the front page twice and thought about it for 2 weeks before I posted, I did not mean to mislead anyone.
-=-I�m going to keep the TV away, as the advice I have received leads me to believe it is kinder not to have it at all, than to gift it to her with restrictions. Although she did seem happier to have it sometimes than not at all, but I guess she will forget about it in time.-=-
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I think "OH" meant "DH"? Husband, I guess.
When Keith and I were in our 20's, we had a neighbor with a big cartoonish sheepdog, and I only saw that dog when we went to their door for some reason. Their grown son hung out with us, so we would go there to pick him up sometimes. That dog really wanted me to pet it, and I really wanted to know that dog. They never took it for a walk, I never saw it out at all. But the dog would jump toward me, or come toward me all tail-wagging, and if I reached out to pet it they would yell "No, don't pet him!" and he would pee. He was SO EXCITED that someone new wanted to touch him that he would wet himself right there.
If they had taken the dog out, let him see other people and other dogs, let him visit the neighbors, let me pet him, he would have stopped doing that. He was needy of touch and attention and knowledge. He wanted to smell me, he wanted to see how I was. He didn't want to pee on me, or himself.
Children want input. They want to learn. They want to explore, and make choices. They want to feel loved and safe and protected and provided for.
Would a person leave an attractive book in a child's room and say "you cannot open that except once a week," would that make sense? Kind or cruel?
If someone left a toy out by a baby and slapped his hand every time he reached for it except one night a week, would that be generous to let him touch it one night a week, or just an act of lunacy on the part of the parent?
If someone left food near a hungry person and told him NO arbitrarily, would ANYONE think it was not mean or harsh?
If someone puts a television in the room of a young child and it sits there night after night and she can't use it, and then one night a week she can, that is sadistic and no one should be surprised if the child pees like a sheepdog who has never been touched by a kind stranger.
-=-Sorry Sandra, I did think I was clear that she does not watch TV every night, but after re-reading my posts today I realise I was not.-=-
There is a difference between the technicality of having said so and the honest report of WHY that is.
My kids don't watch TV every night and never did, but it when they didn't watch TV it was because they wanted to do something else more than that. It was their choice. If your daughter "does not watch TV every night" because of arbitrary restriction, it's not nearly the same thing.
-=-So I give them as much freedom as I can during the day, but when he is home from work we do have to live by his rules. He doesn�t see himself as mean or harsh, he thinks he is doing the best by his children. I do realise this means we will never be unschoolers by your standard.-=-
Have you no influence with him at all?
-=- I do realise this means we will never be unschoolers by your standard.-=-
It's not "my standard" to think about, it's whether you're being logical and compassionate or not. If I had never been born your child would still be reacting horribly to your restrictions. Don't try to make it about me. And why are you saying "Never"? Do you expect to allow freedom in the day and then change the rules at night always? What kinds of relationships will that create? What kinds of relationships do you have now?
Without being able to see something clearly enough to describe it clearly, there is no clarity at all.
Asking us for advice about the aftermath of a problem that is being plainly caused by cruel and arbitrary restrictions seems like asking plumbers what to do after your toilet overflows, because it overflows every time you flush it. If the plumbers talk to you about adjusting the float, or having the line snaked, or replacing the toilet, would you say "No, just tell me how to clean up the mess on the floor"?
Read this. Show it to your husband. Print it out and read it aloud to him if he won't read it otherwise.
http://sandradodd.com/t/economics
If you let your daughter watch all the TV (videos, whatever) she wants, as much as she wants, she will stop peeing on the floor.
If you let your daughter watch all the TV (videos, whatever) she wants, she won't watch it every night forever.
And what's this with "night"? Why can't she watch it as soon as she wakes up? Why can't she fall asleep watching it?
What would be better than all that would be you watching it with her, her dad watching it with her, laughing together, seeing what she likes and what she's learning. If you can't do that, I think you will never be unschoolers to anyone's standards.
The fears are wrong.
http://sandradodd.com/ifilet
The damage is very, very real and will get worse if you continue as you are going. I don't think you're being honest with your husband. You weren't honest with us.
You said this wasn't about love.
You're not seeing clearly.
Your daughter is not being shown love. She is being shown cruelty and capricious whim.
-=-I guess I can�t have my cake and eat it?-=--=-
What cake? There is no up side to your current situation.
You will be happier if your daughter becomes happier. Your husband will be happier if he can see that you and your daughter can be happier and more at peace with movies on than not. She wants to learn. She wants to be with you. She doesn't want to be afraid or told no, no, no. She's displaying healthier behavior than her parents are, it seems, but you can turn that around.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-But if a parent gets pissed off in the face of advice about how to become closer to a child, how guilty should the rest of us feel?
I know it's hard to change one's stance.
I also know that without change, unschooling won't work.-=-
That was me, yesterday morning, when I thought it was still an honest question.
If a parent gets pissed off in the face of advice about how to become closer to a child,
AND if the advice came in response to them having asked a question on this list,
I want them to either
a) read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch and repeat
or
b) go away.
Because I really, truly don't want to provide a place for parents to tell other (unseen, unknown) parents that they are "amazing parents" while their children might be crying, hungry, without beds of their own, or walking away from a darkened, forbidden television to pee in a closet.
Those are not amazing parents.
Let's assume that people who who come to a discussion like this would like to know more about how to focus on their children's needs and to learn more about peaceful partnerships than to guess that they are doing the best they can and are wonderful parents whose children are lucky to have them.
I have seen some really great unschooling parents, absolutely, in person, in their homes. I've also seen some who were not taking care of their children to the point that if social services had shown up. I could not in good conscience have defended the family. I've seen about thirty times as many of the first group as the second. Some of those in that second, questionable, neglectful group have gathered up lots of praise from others just because they can write a good line and seem clever and sparkly in writing. Back home, not so good.
I've gone some dull weeks in a row here too, over the years, when people were sick, or there was some kind of sorrowful frustration, but we always perked up (which usually involved me perking up, or Keith noticing the lull and picking up the cheerleader roll until I was better. If someone besides Keith had known and helped me up out of the rut, I wouldn't have minded that.
-=-And no matter how much people come here to ask about details of personal situations, the answers will all be about unschooling, because that's the purpose of the existence of the discussion in the first place. And unschooling is about learning, naturally; and about the relationships that help that work; and about the joy and peace that can come after that learning and those relationships start to work well.-=-
People write all the time about being surprised at far reaching effects of unschooling. They figured their kids would learn, but they didn't know their marriages would get better and that their relationships with others would improve. They didn't think about how it might affect their thoughts about eighteen and twenty year old "kids." I didn't either, when mine were younger, and it's hard to describe but wonderful, how those relationships can move into the "post school-aged" years and how very different things can be, but it took many years to get where we are.
I remember the trail clearly. I can advise others on how to get here.
I also can see people saying "SCREW you guys; I'm taking my own path," and see them heading for the cliff, for the raging river, for the caves.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I know it's hard to change one's stance.
I also know that without change, unschooling won't work.-=-
That was me, yesterday morning, when I thought it was still an honest question.
If a parent gets pissed off in the face of advice about how to become closer to a child,
AND if the advice came in response to them having asked a question on this list,
I want them to either
a) read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch and repeat
or
b) go away.
Because I really, truly don't want to provide a place for parents to tell other (unseen, unknown) parents that they are "amazing parents" while their children might be crying, hungry, without beds of their own, or walking away from a darkened, forbidden television to pee in a closet.
Those are not amazing parents.
Let's assume that people who who come to a discussion like this would like to know more about how to focus on their children's needs and to learn more about peaceful partnerships than to guess that they are doing the best they can and are wonderful parents whose children are lucky to have them.
I have seen some really great unschooling parents, absolutely, in person, in their homes. I've also seen some who were not taking care of their children to the point that if social services had shown up. I could not in good conscience have defended the family. I've seen about thirty times as many of the first group as the second. Some of those in that second, questionable, neglectful group have gathered up lots of praise from others just because they can write a good line and seem clever and sparkly in writing. Back home, not so good.
I've gone some dull weeks in a row here too, over the years, when people were sick, or there was some kind of sorrowful frustration, but we always perked up (which usually involved me perking up, or Keith noticing the lull and picking up the cheerleader roll until I was better. If someone besides Keith had known and helped me up out of the rut, I wouldn't have minded that.
-=-And no matter how much people come here to ask about details of personal situations, the answers will all be about unschooling, because that's the purpose of the existence of the discussion in the first place. And unschooling is about learning, naturally; and about the relationships that help that work; and about the joy and peace that can come after that learning and those relationships start to work well.-=-
People write all the time about being surprised at far reaching effects of unschooling. They figured their kids would learn, but they didn't know their marriages would get better and that their relationships with others would improve. They didn't think about how it might affect their thoughts about eighteen and twenty year old "kids." I didn't either, when mine were younger, and it's hard to describe but wonderful, how those relationships can move into the "post school-aged" years and how very different things can be, but it took many years to get where we are.
I remember the trail clearly. I can advise others on how to get here.
I also can see people saying "SCREW you guys; I'm taking my own path," and see them heading for the cliff, for the raging river, for the caves.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]