Auto punishment
Claudette
Hi all,
We have recently decided to remove our 4 year old son from school. He has never liked it and we did force him to go during nursery, due to our life commitments. Reception was just too much, he had change his character and was becoming more tense and aggressive, so I decided to take a year off to be with him. Now, we are pretty sure he is not coming back, not sure yet how we are going to manage, but we will some how.
It has been just a few weeks, and we are at the moment doing nothing... Just relaxing and enjoying time together. We are also, as parents, reconsidering the way we talk to him, norms, what we used to find acceptable, etc. We are trying to make a fresh start to allow him to recover from the bad experience.
Main thing that we have removed are little punishments like time outs (that we introduce at home when they were introduce in his life at school, pathetic...¡) and so on.
The thing is that he will be pushing because he wants to be punished. I guess he is too little to understand the change and second he is just testing us to check our limits under this new system...
Anyway, I am finding a bit difficult, normally, I can just be patient enough and distract him into forgetting about it, I think he is just looking for love and reassurance even when he misbehaves, but other times he punishes himself, which is very difficult for me to watch because any attempt from my side to get closer just make things worse, but I feel that if I ignore him (which is what he wants) is giving up on him or proving him right. I don't know, but it just does not feel right.
It does not happen very often, but I am a bit lost and would appreciate your thoughts.
I guess after your comments, I will start giving more details about the experiences.
Thanks again and talk to you soon.
Mertxe
We have recently decided to remove our 4 year old son from school. He has never liked it and we did force him to go during nursery, due to our life commitments. Reception was just too much, he had change his character and was becoming more tense and aggressive, so I decided to take a year off to be with him. Now, we are pretty sure he is not coming back, not sure yet how we are going to manage, but we will some how.
It has been just a few weeks, and we are at the moment doing nothing... Just relaxing and enjoying time together. We are also, as parents, reconsidering the way we talk to him, norms, what we used to find acceptable, etc. We are trying to make a fresh start to allow him to recover from the bad experience.
Main thing that we have removed are little punishments like time outs (that we introduce at home when they were introduce in his life at school, pathetic...¡) and so on.
The thing is that he will be pushing because he wants to be punished. I guess he is too little to understand the change and second he is just testing us to check our limits under this new system...
Anyway, I am finding a bit difficult, normally, I can just be patient enough and distract him into forgetting about it, I think he is just looking for love and reassurance even when he misbehaves, but other times he punishes himself, which is very difficult for me to watch because any attempt from my side to get closer just make things worse, but I feel that if I ignore him (which is what he wants) is giving up on him or proving him right. I don't know, but it just does not feel right.
It does not happen very often, but I am a bit lost and would appreciate your thoughts.
I guess after your comments, I will start giving more details about the experiences.
Thanks again and talk to you soon.
Mertxe
Sandra Dodd
-=-Auto punishment-=-
Why did you call it that!?
If you move more toward helping him do things and giving him choices, you'll find there aren't many things to punish him about.
Kids can't rebel if there aren't strict rules. Kids can't balk at control if you're not trying to control them.
-=-I guess he is too little to understand the change and second he is just testing us to check our limits under this new system... -=-
He shouldn't need to be able to understand the change. Most adults have a very hard time understanding the change. Don't talk to him about "the change." Just gradually be kinder, gentler and say yes more often.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
Sandra
Why did you call it that!?
If you move more toward helping him do things and giving him choices, you'll find there aren't many things to punish him about.
Kids can't rebel if there aren't strict rules. Kids can't balk at control if you're not trying to control them.
-=-I guess he is too little to understand the change and second he is just testing us to check our limits under this new system... -=-
He shouldn't need to be able to understand the change. Most adults have a very hard time understanding the change. Don't talk to him about "the change." Just gradually be kinder, gentler and say yes more often.
http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
Sandra
Jenny Cyphers
***Anyway, I am finding a bit difficult, normally, I can just be patient enough and distract him into forgetting about it, I think he is just looking for love and reassurance even when he misbehaves, but other times he punishes himself, which is very difficult for me to watch because any attempt from my side to get closer just make things worse, but I feel that if I ignore him (which is what he wants) is giving up on him or proving him right. I don't know, but it just does not feel right.***
I doubt he wants to be ignored. Perhaps he needs to be alone for a moment to process his feelings. That's sometimes really necessary, especially for some people. Can you give him a quiet comfortable place to be alone with his feelings while you do something sweet for him in another room? What I like to do, is make a nice snack and bring it to my daughter. In the time it takes to make that snack, 10-15 mins, your kid might have calmed down and be very receptive to something sweet and kind from mom. Sometimes I'll bring a fun card game, like "go fish". She can eat while we play a quick game of cards. It gives a distraction and a way to start talking if your kid wants to talk.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I doubt he wants to be ignored. Perhaps he needs to be alone for a moment to process his feelings. That's sometimes really necessary, especially for some people. Can you give him a quiet comfortable place to be alone with his feelings while you do something sweet for him in another room? What I like to do, is make a nice snack and bring it to my daughter. In the time it takes to make that snack, 10-15 mins, your kid might have calmed down and be very receptive to something sweet and kind from mom. Sometimes I'll bring a fun card game, like "go fish". She can eat while we play a quick game of cards. It gives a distraction and a way to start talking if your kid wants to talk.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Gwynn Raimondi
> Anyway, I am finding a bit difficult, normally, I can just be patientMy daughter had some separation anxiety issues that we work through
> enough and distract him into forgetting about it, I think he is just
> looking for love and reassurance even when he misbehaves, but other times
> he punishes himself, which is very difficult for me to watch because any
> attempt from my side to get closer just make things worse, but I feel that
> if I ignore him (which is what he wants) is giving up on him or proving him
> right. I don't know, but it just does not feel right.
>
>
regularly. They step from, I believe, a very traumatic birth experience and
were followed by a couple of years in daycare while I worked full time
outside of the home. I've been in the home with her full time for over a
year (and was working only part time for the year prior to that) and still
the separation anxiety crops up, and we continue to work through it with me
making sure I am available and present and give her my full attention
during the day when it is just her and I. (This sounds intense, but as she
gets filled up she will often go and play on her own, and I get to do fun
things like the dishes and laundry ;). My daughter is now four and half
years old.
I'm giving you that background because when my girl gets very upset she
will often yell that she wants to be left alone. The reality is, she both
wants to be left alone (as in have me shut up ;) and she wants me near. If
I calmly, kindly, say, "I understand you want a little space, I'm going
into the next room for one minute and then I'll come and check on you" she
panics - her separation anxiety is triggered and everything is suddenly
about me not leaving as opposed to her figuring out her emotions by getting
some space to that. It's not a good situation. What I have recently started
doing instead is simply saying "I understand you want some space right now.
I'm going to step over here/sit over here and quietly wait while you have
some space and quiet". I don't leave the room. I literally step a foot or
two away and I keep my mouth shut so she can have the peace and quiet to
find her own center again.
You could be right that your child doesn't want to truly be left alone, and
you could be wrong. I've found that giving just a little physical space and
shutting my mouth helps my girl both sort out the emotions of the moment
and NOT trigger the panic of separation anxiety for her.
gwynn
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
NCMama
=-=Anyway, I am finding a bit difficult, normally, I can just be patient enough and distract him into forgetting about it, I think he is just looking for love and reassurance even when he misbehaves=-=
What do you consider misbehavior? If you're still seeing actions as misbehaving, and you're not doing ANYthing, there's a disconnect there.
Caren
What do you consider misbehavior? If you're still seeing actions as misbehaving, and you're not doing ANYthing, there's a disconnect there.
Caren
Rinelle
My husband and daugther seem to be really struggling with getting along
lately. My daughter frequently gets quite angry at him when she percieves
him doing something 'wrong', which to her means not the way she pictured it
in her mind, and then my husband gets quite upset and feels she is being
ungrateful.
An example is that today I bought some melting chocolate for my daughter,
and she wanted to melt it in her toy saucepans. Her dad explained that we
couldn't put the saucepans in the microwave (nor are they designed to be
used on the stove, they're toys), but we could heat it in a bowl, then pour
it into the saucepan. My daughter said that would work, so dad started
heating the chocolate in the microwave. He took the chocolate out to stir
it part way through, and my daughter got upset that he was stirring it
because she wanted to. Dad was concerned that it would be too hot for her
(the bowl itself gets painfully hot when heating). He poured it into her
little saucepan, and she stirred it there.
Then she poured it into her toy cake pan, but there wasn't enough, so dad
offered to melt some more, and asked how much. Daughter said she would like
two of each colour, but dad said that probably wouldn't be enough. Then he
asked her if she wanted to use some of the chocolate pieces that had started
to melt (in the sun), and she totally lost it, screaming that he'd ruined
it.
My husband went off into the other room, and my daughter did eventually calm
down. I could point out to him a few points where he could have done things
differently (accepting that she only wanted two of each piece of chocolate
for example), and I explained to my daughter that if she wants to do
something a particular way, she needs to ask, not scream. But other than
that, I'm not sure how I can help them.
My daughter is usually OK about it after a few moments, it's really my
husband who's struggling. He came from a very strict background, where he
was expected to say thanks for something and appreciate it even if it wasn't
what he wanted, and where what his parents said went, regardless of his own
opinions, so I think this is impacting on it. He frequently says 'she's not
even grateful for what I'm doing'.
It is really impacting on him, to the point where he has said that he would
rather not be here many days. Some of this is his own issues (he suffers
from depression and anxiety, and has a very low self esteem), but the way my
daughter screams at him so frequently (at least once or twice most days)
isn't helping. I find myself being harsher on her than I feel I should be
simply to stop her screaming at my husband, who is obviously very
distressed. I'm not really sure what else I can do. I don't want to send
my daughter to school, though that would give my husband a break from her
constant presence (we both work from home). I do try to take her out a
couple of times a week so that my husband can have some quiet time, and she
can play with her friends, but lately she hasn't wanted to go anywhere, and
playdates with her friends have ended similarly, with her yelling at them
and wanting to go home, saying she never wants to visit again.
Can anyone see any obvious flaws in how I'm handling it, and anything I
could be doing differently. Any great pages that I could suggest my husband
read? He's very open to unschooling, and completely on board with it, but
he is struggling more with the actual implementation than I am, possibly
because he has less time to read as much as I have read. It has taken me so
long to get to the point where I have a better relationship with my
daughter, and I want to help him find ways that work for him too.
Tamara
lately. My daughter frequently gets quite angry at him when she percieves
him doing something 'wrong', which to her means not the way she pictured it
in her mind, and then my husband gets quite upset and feels she is being
ungrateful.
An example is that today I bought some melting chocolate for my daughter,
and she wanted to melt it in her toy saucepans. Her dad explained that we
couldn't put the saucepans in the microwave (nor are they designed to be
used on the stove, they're toys), but we could heat it in a bowl, then pour
it into the saucepan. My daughter said that would work, so dad started
heating the chocolate in the microwave. He took the chocolate out to stir
it part way through, and my daughter got upset that he was stirring it
because she wanted to. Dad was concerned that it would be too hot for her
(the bowl itself gets painfully hot when heating). He poured it into her
little saucepan, and she stirred it there.
Then she poured it into her toy cake pan, but there wasn't enough, so dad
offered to melt some more, and asked how much. Daughter said she would like
two of each colour, but dad said that probably wouldn't be enough. Then he
asked her if she wanted to use some of the chocolate pieces that had started
to melt (in the sun), and she totally lost it, screaming that he'd ruined
it.
My husband went off into the other room, and my daughter did eventually calm
down. I could point out to him a few points where he could have done things
differently (accepting that she only wanted two of each piece of chocolate
for example), and I explained to my daughter that if she wants to do
something a particular way, she needs to ask, not scream. But other than
that, I'm not sure how I can help them.
My daughter is usually OK about it after a few moments, it's really my
husband who's struggling. He came from a very strict background, where he
was expected to say thanks for something and appreciate it even if it wasn't
what he wanted, and where what his parents said went, regardless of his own
opinions, so I think this is impacting on it. He frequently says 'she's not
even grateful for what I'm doing'.
It is really impacting on him, to the point where he has said that he would
rather not be here many days. Some of this is his own issues (he suffers
from depression and anxiety, and has a very low self esteem), but the way my
daughter screams at him so frequently (at least once or twice most days)
isn't helping. I find myself being harsher on her than I feel I should be
simply to stop her screaming at my husband, who is obviously very
distressed. I'm not really sure what else I can do. I don't want to send
my daughter to school, though that would give my husband a break from her
constant presence (we both work from home). I do try to take her out a
couple of times a week so that my husband can have some quiet time, and she
can play with her friends, but lately she hasn't wanted to go anywhere, and
playdates with her friends have ended similarly, with her yelling at them
and wanting to go home, saying she never wants to visit again.
Can anyone see any obvious flaws in how I'm handling it, and anything I
could be doing differently. Any great pages that I could suggest my husband
read? He's very open to unschooling, and completely on board with it, but
he is struggling more with the actual implementation than I am, possibly
because he has less time to read as much as I have read. It has taken me so
long to get to the point where I have a better relationship with my
daughter, and I want to help him find ways that work for him too.
Tamara
Kristen
Tamara-
How old is your daughter?
-Kristen
How old is your daughter?
-Kristen
jo kirby
Hi Tamara,
How old is your daughter please, and is she your only child? Also, you mention it has taken you "so long to get to the point where I have a better relationship with my
daughter", can you explain this a bit more please?
Kind regards,
Jo
________________________________
From: Rinelle <rinelle@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 13 December 2011, 7:45
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Helping my Husband and Daughter get along better
My husband and daugther seem to be really struggling with getting along
lately. My daughter frequently gets quite angry at him when she percieves
him doing something 'wrong', which to her means not the way she pictured it
in her mind, and then my husband gets quite upset and feels she is being
ungrateful.
An example is that today I bought some melting chocolate for my daughter,
and she wanted to melt it in her toy saucepans. Her dad explained that we
couldn't put the saucepans in the microwave (nor are they designed to be
used on the stove, they're toys), but we could heat it in a bowl, then pour
it into the saucepan. My daughter said that would work, so dad started
heating the chocolate in the microwave. He took the chocolate out to stir
it part way through, and my daughter got upset that he was stirring it
because she wanted to. Dad was concerned that it would be too hot for her
(the bowl itself gets painfully hot when heating). He poured it into her
little saucepan, and she stirred it there.
Then she poured it into her toy cake pan, but there wasn't enough, so dad
offered to melt some more, and asked how much. Daughter said she would like
two of each colour, but dad said that probably wouldn't be enough. Then he
asked her if she wanted to use some of the chocolate pieces that had started
to melt (in the sun), and she totally lost it, screaming that he'd ruined
it.
My husband went off into the other room, and my daughter did eventually calm
down. I could point out to him a few points where he could have done things
differently (accepting that she only wanted two of each piece of chocolate
for example), and I explained to my daughter that if she wants to do
something a particular way, she needs to ask, not scream. But other than
that, I'm not sure how I can help them.
My daughter is usually OK about it after a few moments, it's really my
husband who's struggling. He came from a very strict background, where he
was expected to say thanks for something and appreciate it even if it wasn't
what he wanted, and where what his parents said went, regardless of his own
opinions, so I think this is impacting on it. He frequently says 'she's not
even grateful for what I'm doing'.
It is really impacting on him, to the point where he has said that he would
rather not be here many days. Some of this is his own issues (he suffers
from depression and anxiety, and has a very low self esteem), but the way my
daughter screams at him so frequently (at least once or twice most days)
isn't helping. I find myself being harsher on her than I feel I should be
simply to stop her screaming at my husband, who is obviously very
distressed. I'm not really sure what else I can do. I don't want to send
my daughter to school, though that would give my husband a break from her
constant presence (we both work from home). I do try to take her out a
couple of times a week so that my husband can have some quiet time, and she
can play with her friends, but lately she hasn't wanted to go anywhere, and
playdates with her friends have ended similarly, with her yelling at them
and wanting to go home, saying she never wants to visit again.
Can anyone see any obvious flaws in how I'm handling it, and anything I
could be doing differently. Any great pages that I could suggest my husband
read? He's very open to unschooling, and completely on board with it, but
he is struggling more with the actual implementation than I am, possibly
because he has less time to read as much as I have read. It has taken me so
long to get to the point where I have a better relationship with my
daughter, and I want to help him find ways that work for him too.
Tamara
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
How old is your daughter please, and is she your only child? Also, you mention it has taken you "so long to get to the point where I have a better relationship with my
daughter", can you explain this a bit more please?
Kind regards,
Jo
________________________________
From: Rinelle <rinelle@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 13 December 2011, 7:45
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Helping my Husband and Daughter get along better
My husband and daugther seem to be really struggling with getting along
lately. My daughter frequently gets quite angry at him when she percieves
him doing something 'wrong', which to her means not the way she pictured it
in her mind, and then my husband gets quite upset and feels she is being
ungrateful.
An example is that today I bought some melting chocolate for my daughter,
and she wanted to melt it in her toy saucepans. Her dad explained that we
couldn't put the saucepans in the microwave (nor are they designed to be
used on the stove, they're toys), but we could heat it in a bowl, then pour
it into the saucepan. My daughter said that would work, so dad started
heating the chocolate in the microwave. He took the chocolate out to stir
it part way through, and my daughter got upset that he was stirring it
because she wanted to. Dad was concerned that it would be too hot for her
(the bowl itself gets painfully hot when heating). He poured it into her
little saucepan, and she stirred it there.
Then she poured it into her toy cake pan, but there wasn't enough, so dad
offered to melt some more, and asked how much. Daughter said she would like
two of each colour, but dad said that probably wouldn't be enough. Then he
asked her if she wanted to use some of the chocolate pieces that had started
to melt (in the sun), and she totally lost it, screaming that he'd ruined
it.
My husband went off into the other room, and my daughter did eventually calm
down. I could point out to him a few points where he could have done things
differently (accepting that she only wanted two of each piece of chocolate
for example), and I explained to my daughter that if she wants to do
something a particular way, she needs to ask, not scream. But other than
that, I'm not sure how I can help them.
My daughter is usually OK about it after a few moments, it's really my
husband who's struggling. He came from a very strict background, where he
was expected to say thanks for something and appreciate it even if it wasn't
what he wanted, and where what his parents said went, regardless of his own
opinions, so I think this is impacting on it. He frequently says 'she's not
even grateful for what I'm doing'.
It is really impacting on him, to the point where he has said that he would
rather not be here many days. Some of this is his own issues (he suffers
from depression and anxiety, and has a very low self esteem), but the way my
daughter screams at him so frequently (at least once or twice most days)
isn't helping. I find myself being harsher on her than I feel I should be
simply to stop her screaming at my husband, who is obviously very
distressed. I'm not really sure what else I can do. I don't want to send
my daughter to school, though that would give my husband a break from her
constant presence (we both work from home). I do try to take her out a
couple of times a week so that my husband can have some quiet time, and she
can play with her friends, but lately she hasn't wanted to go anywhere, and
playdates with her friends have ended similarly, with her yelling at them
and wanting to go home, saying she never wants to visit again.
Can anyone see any obvious flaws in how I'm handling it, and anything I
could be doing differently. Any great pages that I could suggest my husband
read? He's very open to unschooling, and completely on board with it, but
he is struggling more with the actual implementation than I am, possibly
because he has less time to read as much as I have read. It has taken me so
long to get to the point where I have a better relationship with my
daughter, and I want to help him find ways that work for him too.
Tamara
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rinelle
> How old is your daughter please, and is she your only child? Also, youSorry, forgot to mention that. She's 7, and our only child.
> mention it has taken you "so long to get to the > point where I have a
> better relationship with my daughter", can you explain this a bit more
> please?
What I mean is that she's very determined to have things her way, and it has
taken me quite a while to be able to let go of the control myself, and to be
able to realise that she wants to do things her way, and that's OK. I'm
much better now at asking her every single step of the way what she wants
done, giving her plenty of time to answer. I'm also much better at
understanding that when she's upset at something, I need to look at what
she's upset at rather than telling her not to be upset. The changes have
been on my side, but she changed as I did. However, she hasn't changed in
the same way with her dad, who still hasn't made those initial changes I
did.
Tamara
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 12, 2011, at 8:21 PM, Gwynn Raimondi wrote:
It's really only the current society that is creating the *image* of it being natural for 4 yos (or 8 yos or 10 yos) to be away from their parents. Day care and preschool forces kids apart from their families. Little kids don't choose that. Most kids do their best to survive and adapt, but it's not what they need to thrive.
I think you might be using too many words still. Just a compassionate okay and then let your actions speak.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My daughter had some separation anxiety issues that we work throughOr it may be her personality. It really doesn't matter (unless something's continuing to hurt her.) It helps more to respond to her needs than to come from a mental place of "fixing" her. Her needs right now are her needs regardless of what happened in the past.
> regularly. They step from, I believe, a very traumatic birth experience and
> were followed by a couple of years in daycare while I worked full time
> outside of the home.
> we continue to work through it with meIt will help to mentally shift from doing less "working through it" and more responding to her underlying needs. Lots of kids who haven't been traumatized want and need their moms close. (My daughter didn't even like going to the bathroom by herself until she was 11ish.)
> making sure I am available and present and give her my full attention
> during the day when it is just her and I.
It's really only the current society that is creating the *image* of it being natural for 4 yos (or 8 yos or 10 yos) to be away from their parents. Day care and preschool forces kids apart from their families. Little kids don't choose that. Most kids do their best to survive and adapt, but it's not what they need to thrive.
> What I have recently startedYes, children don't always communicate clearly what they need. They may not know! So it's good to figure out what they're *trying* to communicate by trying different things and finding what works.
> doing instead is simply saying "I understand you want some space right now.
> I'm going to step over here/sit over here and quietly wait while you have
> some space and quiet". I don't leave the room. I literally step a foot or
> two away and I keep my mouth shut so she can have the peace and quiet to
> find her own center again.
I think you might be using too many words still. Just a compassionate okay and then let your actions speak.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-What I have recently started
doing instead is simply saying "I understand you want some space right now.
I'm going to step over here/sit over here and quietly wait while you have
some space and quiet".-=-
When Holly would have the "I want to be alone / I want to be with you / leave me alone" moments, sometimes I would say "Call me if you need me," and go in the next room, of "I love you, let me know if you want to talk." Something short, but something that let me get out of range of the fit, but be near in case it got worse.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
doing instead is simply saying "I understand you want some space right now.
I'm going to step over here/sit over here and quietly wait while you have
some space and quiet".-=-
When Holly would have the "I want to be alone / I want to be with you / leave me alone" moments, sometimes I would say "Call me if you need me," and go in the next room, of "I love you, let me know if you want to talk." Something short, but something that let me get out of range of the fit, but be near in case it got worse.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 12, 2011, at 5:25 PM, Claudette wrote:
If he has needs and you're being a roadblock saying no, *is* it a good thing if he gives up his need? It's convenient for you as a parent. But is that what you want him to do as an adult when he has a need? To give up when someone says no? Or do you want him to persist to find safe, respectful, doable ways to get what he wants in the world?
When anything changes, people try to figure out the new rules are by trying things out. If he is testing, that's what he's doing. He's experimenting and seeing what happens.
Or he may be trying to get his needs met.
As they get older, though, the more you treat their want seriously, helping them find safe, respectful, doable ways to get something, the stronger the relationship. The child will trust you're there to help rather than someone who keeps getting in their way
If he's punishing himself for mistakes, that can be rough to see a child do. But be compassionate and see it as how he needs to process things right now.
Reassure him that you're nearby for when he needs you.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> The thing is that he will be pushing because he wants to be punished.He doesn't want to be punished. He wants -- as any human does -- his needs met. Unlike an adult, he can't do it himself. He depends on you to be his arms and legs and power in the world.
If he has needs and you're being a roadblock saying no, *is* it a good thing if he gives up his need? It's convenient for you as a parent. But is that what you want him to do as an adult when he has a need? To give up when someone says no? Or do you want him to persist to find safe, respectful, doable ways to get what he wants in the world?
> he is just testing us to check our limits under this new system...He may be testing but it's better not to see it in the negative way most parents say that.
When anything changes, people try to figure out the new rules are by trying things out. If he is testing, that's what he's doing. He's experimenting and seeing what happens.
Or he may be trying to get his needs met.
> Anyway, I am finding a bit difficult, normally, I can just beWhen kids are very little, up to toddlers, distraction is good. Everything is interesting so finding something better to do is less frustrating for the child than trying to make something safe that isn't safe for them.
> patient enough and distract him into forgetting about it,
As they get older, though, the more you treat their want seriously, helping them find safe, respectful, doable ways to get something, the stronger the relationship. The child will trust you're there to help rather than someone who keeps getting in their way
> I think he is just looking for love and reassurance even when he misbehaves,That makes it sound like a test, like he doesn't trust that you always love him. So it would be good to examine how he might be getting that message. It would be good to look at your own responses through his eyes. Or it might be a phase. But good to examine it!
> but other times he punishes himself, which is very difficult for me to watchIf he's punishing himself for trying to meet his own needs when you say no, you'll want to put more effort into saying yes!
> because any attempt from my side to get closer just make things worse,
If he's punishing himself for mistakes, that can be rough to see a child do. But be compassionate and see it as how he needs to process things right now.
Reassure him that you're nearby for when he needs you.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- it has
taken me quite a while to be able to let go of the control myself, and to be
able to realise that she wants to do things her way, and that's OK. I'm
much better now at asking her every single step of the way what she wants
done, giving her plenty of time to answer. -=-
It's okay SOMEtimes, but it's not okay for you to sublimate your life (and your husband's) to letting her have her way about everything all the time.
-=- I'm also much better at
understanding that when she's upset at something, I need to look at what
she's upset at rather than telling her not to be upset.-=-
But it's not working very well.
Sometimes she's upset when it would be better for her and her family for her to have options.
Perhaps you could coach her about making choices. She's old enough to think about that, at seven. It won't be at the same level as your choices, but before she yells or cries, she should think. Is it good? Is it right? Will it help? Will it make her a better person? Not all those questions at once, but at least one of them each time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
taken me quite a while to be able to let go of the control myself, and to be
able to realise that she wants to do things her way, and that's OK. I'm
much better now at asking her every single step of the way what she wants
done, giving her plenty of time to answer. -=-
It's okay SOMEtimes, but it's not okay for you to sublimate your life (and your husband's) to letting her have her way about everything all the time.
-=- I'm also much better at
understanding that when she's upset at something, I need to look at what
she's upset at rather than telling her not to be upset.-=-
But it's not working very well.
Sometimes she's upset when it would be better for her and her family for her to have options.
Perhaps you could coach her about making choices. She's old enough to think about that, at seven. It won't be at the same level as your choices, but before she yells or cries, she should think. Is it good? Is it right? Will it help? Will it make her a better person? Not all those questions at once, but at least one of them each time.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
>And, don't get discouraged. My middle daughter, at 7, could rarely be
> Perhaps you could coach her about making choices. She's old enough to
> think about that, at seven. It won't be at the same level as your choices,
> but before she yells or cries, she should think. Is it good? Is it right?
> Will it help? Will it make her a better person? Not all those questions at
> once, but at least one of them each time.>>>
>
rational once she was upset by something and she was very easily upset. At
24, she is THE most reasonable person I know - she can stay calm and
focused, her skills at dealing with conflict and frustration and staying
solution-oriented are so good that she is the go-to person for many others
who turn to her when problems arise.
When she was young, she had to work at working with others, dealing with
other people not seeing things her way, not doing things her way. There
were many times I despaired because she seemed so unreasonable. And there
were many times I did the wrong thing and frustrated her even more by my
own impatient behavior. Knowing what I know now, if I had a do-over, I
could remain far more calm and rational, myself, and be more helpful to
her. But, we did fine and she's a natural leader these days - collaborates
extremely well.
One recommendation I have is not to say too much about this stuff. Give her
just a little input and make it very very short. "Other options?" She is
possibly easily overloaded with sensory input. She's very easily frustrated
(so that one wrong move by you or your husband sets off a chain reaction).
Find ways to reduce the overall frustration level in her life, but, at the
same time, find something that she enjoys doing with other people that does
require her to wait her turn and do things the way other people decide. My
daughter benefitted tremendously from Destination Imagination - a creative
problem solving group activity.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Sometimes my son and my husband have a hard time communicating.
What has helped is the same thing that I do between my son and my daughter.
Just last night my husband was feeling shunned by my son and my son was avoiding his dad.
This has been going on for a couple days. So Yesterday I asked my son what happened.
Did dad do anything he did not like? "NO"
Did he say anything he did not like? "I do not remember what it was anymore."
So I pointed out to him all the nice things dad does for him and how dad loves him and that
he should think about forgiving whatever it was because dad was feeling sad that he was not spending time'
with him.
My son said that he was thinking about that already.
I did the same with my husband . I pointed out how just a few weeks ago my son was doing all this things with dad.
When dad got home my son went and gave him a hug.'
They are fine now.
I also learned that I was the cause of a lot of it when I got in the middle and kept telling my husband he was doing and saying the wrong things.
In a way I sabotage their relationship because I wanted dad to do exactly like I do with my son. I needed to let them figure out
how to relate without getting in the middle, or helping on the sidelines. But I used to just jump in and in front of my son tell his dad he
was doing it wrong. Well that did not help them at all in their relationship. I did not trust dad to do it just right and of course my son
witnessed that. Once I stepped back, still help as needed, and I let their own relationship blossom things got so much better.
I still give tips to my husband of how it could help if my son is upset and I still point out to my son how much dad loves him and all he does.
Before a lot of what my son saw was me telling my husband he was wrong and did not do it right.
OK I don;t know how clear that was but just wanted to clear that "doing it right" means talking, playing, relating and about how they were with one another and how my husband was relating to my son.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
What has helped is the same thing that I do between my son and my daughter.
Just last night my husband was feeling shunned by my son and my son was avoiding his dad.
This has been going on for a couple days. So Yesterday I asked my son what happened.
Did dad do anything he did not like? "NO"
Did he say anything he did not like? "I do not remember what it was anymore."
So I pointed out to him all the nice things dad does for him and how dad loves him and that
he should think about forgiving whatever it was because dad was feeling sad that he was not spending time'
with him.
My son said that he was thinking about that already.
I did the same with my husband . I pointed out how just a few weeks ago my son was doing all this things with dad.
When dad got home my son went and gave him a hug.'
They are fine now.
I also learned that I was the cause of a lot of it when I got in the middle and kept telling my husband he was doing and saying the wrong things.
In a way I sabotage their relationship because I wanted dad to do exactly like I do with my son. I needed to let them figure out
how to relate without getting in the middle, or helping on the sidelines. But I used to just jump in and in front of my son tell his dad he
was doing it wrong. Well that did not help them at all in their relationship. I did not trust dad to do it just right and of course my son
witnessed that. Once I stepped back, still help as needed, and I let their own relationship blossom things got so much better.
I still give tips to my husband of how it could help if my son is upset and I still point out to my son how much dad loves him and all he does.
Before a lot of what my son saw was me telling my husband he was wrong and did not do it right.
OK I don;t know how clear that was but just wanted to clear that "doing it right" means talking, playing, relating and about how they were with one another and how my husband was relating to my son.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- My middle daughter, at 7, could rarely be
rational once she was upset by something and she was very easily upset. At
24, she is THE most reasonable person I know - she can stay calm and
focused, her skills at dealing with conflict and frustration and staying
solution-oriented are so good that she is the go-to person for many others
who turn to her when problems arise.-=-
Kirby, my oldest, was that way, and is that way.
We helped him try to think before acting, when he was five, six, seven, and to breathe before he spoke or acted.
-=-One recommendation I have is not to say too much about this stuff. Give her
just a little input and make it very very short. "Other options?" She is
possibly easily overloaded with sensory input.-=-
I agree. VERY short messages.
"Did you make a choice?" might be one of them.
If she's making your husband so unhappy that he doesn't want to be at the house, that's gone too far, I think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rational once she was upset by something and she was very easily upset. At
24, she is THE most reasonable person I know - she can stay calm and
focused, her skills at dealing with conflict and frustration and staying
solution-oriented are so good that she is the go-to person for many others
who turn to her when problems arise.-=-
Kirby, my oldest, was that way, and is that way.
We helped him try to think before acting, when he was five, six, seven, and to breathe before he spoke or acted.
-=-One recommendation I have is not to say too much about this stuff. Give her
just a little input and make it very very short. "Other options?" She is
possibly easily overloaded with sensory input.-=-
I agree. VERY short messages.
"Did you make a choice?" might be one of them.
If she's making your husband so unhappy that he doesn't want to be at the house, that's gone too far, I think.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<"If she's making your husband so unhappy that he doesn't want to be at the house, that's gone too far, I think.">>>>
Also if you are always jumping in between her and him to rescue her when all he did was try to help her ( even if things backfired) he may be feeling like he can do nothing right and he is not needed or welcomed. No wonder he wants to not be there.
No one wants to feel like all they do is wrong and it looks like he was trying to play with her and help her out.
Once I no longer expected that my husband relate to my son just like I did they were able to connect.
My husband found HIS way .
I was many times the road block. How could my husband learn what made our son happy or not if he did not get the chance to find out and learn.
I was always in the way cutting in and telling him all he was doing was wrong and not the right way ( my way).
I did not trust my husband to do it the right way ( my way) . How do you think he felt?
He felt like he was not wanted, needed, loved and that he could never measure up.
If it was not for finding unschooling and extending the principles beyond how I treated my child and towards my husband I am sure we
would not be like we are today. I still struggle at times. I still need to remind myself of all this and their relationship still has some bumps here and there
but they love each other very much and we are learning everyday to be more mindful towards each other
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
rinelle2011
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
However, in instances where she is insisting on no one sitting on the couch for example (we only have one, it's quite large) then I will tell her that it is for everyone to share, and we will work through a solution so everyone can be comfortable.
My husband really struggles with being able to tell when to let her have her way (if it's not going to affect him) and when not to. He is far more likely to accept being uncomfortable because he has nowhere to sit, then letting her download the version of the game she wants,
Tamara
>To clarify, I do this when I realise that it really isn't going to make a great deal of difference to me (or my husband). An example being downloading games for her iPad. She is quite insistent that she wants the iPhone version of the game, not the high definition version (I think in reaction to my husband and I being too insistent that the high definition was better). She is the one playing the game, so it really makes little difference to me, and insisting that I'm right is only going to make her more determined that she's right.
> -=- it has
> taken me quite a while to be able to let go of the control myself, and to be
> able to realise that she wants to do things her way, and that's OK. I'm
> much better now at asking her every single step of the way what she wants
> done, giving her plenty of time to answer. -=-
>
> It's okay SOMEtimes, but it's not okay for you to sublimate your life (and your husband's) to letting her have her way about everything all the time.
However, in instances where she is insisting on no one sitting on the couch for example (we only have one, it's quite large) then I will tell her that it is for everyone to share, and we will work through a solution so everyone can be comfortable.
My husband really struggles with being able to tell when to let her have her way (if it's not going to affect him) and when not to. He is far more likely to accept being uncomfortable because he has nowhere to sit, then letting her download the version of the game she wants,
Tamara
rinelle2011
--- In [email protected], Pam Sorooshian <pamsoroosh@...> wrote:.
This is another frustration my husband is dealing with, that my daughter wants to play large amounts of imaginary games with him, and he really doesn't feel like playing the amount she seems to need.
Tamara
> .Yes, she is very easily frustrated, and simple, short sentences definitely are better than long explanations. She will tell my husband not to talk when she is upset because he tends to be very wordy, which upsets him. Any suggestions as to how I can handle this?
>
> One recommendation I have is not to say too much about this stuff. Give her
> just a little input and make it very very short. "Other options?" She is
> possibly easily overloaded with sensory input. She's very easily frustrated
> (so that one wrong move by you or your husband sets off a chain reaction).
>We are really struggling with her ability to play with other children. The only games she wants to play are imaginary games. I feel that some of this stems from being an only child (perhaps I'm imagining this though?) as she has limited chances to play these games with other children. When she has friends over, they would love to play computer games with her (which she really enjoys doing when alone) but she doesn't want to, because it takes away from imaginary play. They, on the other hand, all have brothers and sisters to play with, so focus a lot more on active games or other things to do.
> Find ways to reduce the overall frustration level in her life, but, at the
> same time, find something that she enjoys doing with other people that does
> require her to wait her turn and do things the way other people decide. My
> daughter benefitted tremendously from Destination Imagination - a creative
> problem solving group activity.
>
This is another frustration my husband is dealing with, that my daughter wants to play large amounts of imaginary games with him, and he really doesn't feel like playing the amount she seems to need.
Tamara
Sandra Dodd
-=-However, in instances where she is insisting on no one sitting on the couch for example (we only have one, it's quite large) then I will tell her that it is for everyone to share, and we will work through a solution so everyone can be comfortable.-=-
I wouldn't. I would say she can only have the couch to herself when no one else wants it, and if she doesn't want to share she should sit somewhere else.
-=-My husband really struggles with being able to tell when to let her have her way (if it's not going to affect him) and when not to. He is far more likely to accept being uncomfortable because he has nowhere to sit, then letting her download the version of the game she wants,-=-
I don't think it should be only about whether it's going to affect him. Does it affect HER? Is her demanding nature causing her to be a mean person? That affects her and the rest of the world.
Unschooling doesn't need to encourage selfishness. If you're going to be a team, rather than adversaries, you need to be on her team, and TEAM, not you her abused servants. Help her be generous. Help her be fairminded.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I wouldn't. I would say she can only have the couch to herself when no one else wants it, and if she doesn't want to share she should sit somewhere else.
-=-My husband really struggles with being able to tell when to let her have her way (if it's not going to affect him) and when not to. He is far more likely to accept being uncomfortable because he has nowhere to sit, then letting her download the version of the game she wants,-=-
I don't think it should be only about whether it's going to affect him. Does it affect HER? Is her demanding nature causing her to be a mean person? That affects her and the rest of the world.
Unschooling doesn't need to encourage selfishness. If you're going to be a team, rather than adversaries, you need to be on her team, and TEAM, not you her abused servants. Help her be generous. Help her be fairminded.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rinelle
> I don't think it should be only about whether it's going to affect him.Could you clarify this a bit more Sandra? I'm not really sure what the
> Does it affect HER? Is her demanding nature
> causing her to be a mean person? That affects her and the rest of the
> world.
difference is? In the example I mentioned (where she wanted to download a
particular version of a game), I'm not sure how I could have done things
differently? I'm not sure that she was being mean, as it didn't cause a
problem for anyone else? Or are you refering to the fact that I said she
seemed to only want that version because we said the other version was
better? If so, I'd love some ideas on how to deal with this, as everything
I'm doing (trying to explain my reasoning) seems to only make the situation
worse.
Tamara
Sandra Dodd
-=-Could you clarify this a bit more Sandra? I'm not really sure what the
difference is? In the example I mentioned (where she wanted to download a
particular version of a game), I'm not sure how I could have done things
differently? I'm not sure that she was being mean, as it didn't cause a
problem for anyone else? -=-
I was talking about the couch more than the game.
-=-Or are you refering to the fact that I said she
seemed to only want that version because we said the other version was
better? -=-
"Better" isn't necessarily in higher definition.
The old phone/ipad version of Plants vs. Zombies has features the "better" one doesn't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
difference is? In the example I mentioned (where she wanted to download a
particular version of a game), I'm not sure how I could have done things
differently? I'm not sure that she was being mean, as it didn't cause a
problem for anyone else? -=-
I was talking about the couch more than the game.
-=-Or are you refering to the fact that I said she
seemed to only want that version because we said the other version was
better? -=-
"Better" isn't necessarily in higher definition.
The old phone/ipad version of Plants vs. Zombies has features the "better" one doesn't.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
The recommendation was how YOU-the-mom could use smaller messages.
You immediately turned it to being about your husband:
The way you describe it above, there's something wrong with her, and there's something wrong with him. But the recommendation was about how YOU could help her, with small messages such as "Other options?"
-=-This is another frustration my husband is dealing with, that my daughter wants to play large amounts of imaginary games with him, and he really doesn't feel like playing the amount she seems to need.-=-
What about you? Could you all play make-believe together? Could you do it instead of him?
(You don't need to answer these questions--they're just for you to think about.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You immediately turned it to being about your husband:
> One recommendation I have is not to say too much about this stuff. Give her-=-Yes, she is very easily frustrated, and simple, short sentences definitely are better than long explanations. She will tell my husband not to talk when she is upset because he tends to be very wordy, which upsets him. Any suggestions as to how I can handle this?-=-
> just a little input and make it very very short. "Other options?" She is
> possibly easily overloaded with sensory input. She's very easily frustrated
> (so that one wrong move by you or your husband sets off a chain reaction).
The way you describe it above, there's something wrong with her, and there's something wrong with him. But the recommendation was about how YOU could help her, with small messages such as "Other options?"
-=-This is another frustration my husband is dealing with, that my daughter wants to play large amounts of imaginary games with him, and he really doesn't feel like playing the amount she seems to need.-=-
What about you? Could you all play make-believe together? Could you do it instead of him?
(You don't need to answer these questions--they're just for you to think about.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
I paid my older daughter to play pretend with my middle daughter - when my
middle daughter was 9 and 10 and older one was 12 and 13. If my middle
daughter (Roxana) could play an hour or two of pretend play in the morning,
the rest of her day went much better. She needed it. Roya got busy with
other things and not so interested in that kind of play, so I paid her to
continue it for at least one hour every morning.
Maybe you could get a young mother's helper who would play pretend with
her. Keep looking for a friend who really loves that kind of play - provide
props (dress-ups, materials to make props). She doesn't need a lot of
friends, just one who enjoys that kind of play.
-pam
middle daughter was 9 and 10 and older one was 12 and 13. If my middle
daughter (Roxana) could play an hour or two of pretend play in the morning,
the rest of her day went much better. She needed it. Roya got busy with
other things and not so interested in that kind of play, so I paid her to
continue it for at least one hour every morning.
Maybe you could get a young mother's helper who would play pretend with
her. Keep looking for a friend who really loves that kind of play - provide
props (dress-ups, materials to make props). She doesn't need a lot of
friends, just one who enjoys that kind of play.
-pam
On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 6:14 PM, rinelle2011 <rinelle@...>wrote:
> This is another frustration my husband is dealing with, that my daughter
> wants to play large amounts of imaginary games with him, and he really
> doesn't feel like playing the amount she seems to need.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
You seem very adversarial. Try to find opportunity to support her, not
disagree with her or try to talk her into your own choices. If you tell her
a version of the game is better, why would she not take that as useful
info?
-pam
disagree with her or try to talk her into your own choices. If you tell her
a version of the game is better, why would she not take that as useful
info?
-pam
On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 6:25 PM, Rinelle <rinelle@...> wrote:
> I'm not really sure what the
> difference is? In the example I mentioned (where she wanted to download a
> particular version of a game), I'm not sure how I could have done things
> differently? I'm not sure that she was being mean, as it didn't cause a
> problem for anyone else?
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
So my son , who is 9 years old, is having this heated discussion on youTube with some people/hunters who
are in favor of hunting wolves.
So I have been reading it and here is something he wrote and I was very surprised that he used punctuation.
That is something he slowly started using. Sure he does make mistakes spelling and grammatical errors too.
(I apologize in advance for some of the language as he has been very upset and this guy ( who seems to be about 40) has been really obnoxiously calling him names since the discussion started a day ago. I could edit it out if it offends )
==-=-=-=-
"I hate you. Idiot...Wolves are EXTREMELY important for the ecosystem.Have you never heard that they eat dead bodies found in the forest?They clean the forest.So what if they kill deers?It's the circle of life, many animals(humans) kill deers,or something else,because they have to eat. It's not true that a stuffed wolf would chase and kill another animal, exception being killing for puppies' meat or killing the intruders who get too close to their nest. I hope you don't get the tag.BTW,fuck you!"
-=-=-=-=-=-
By the way he does not use this language in everyday life and he does not call his sister any names , or me and dad , even when he is upset.
He has really been into wolves lately and has read about 10 books he got in the library about wolves. He also looks up videos on youtube and that is how this started.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
are in favor of hunting wolves.
So I have been reading it and here is something he wrote and I was very surprised that he used punctuation.
That is something he slowly started using. Sure he does make mistakes spelling and grammatical errors too.
(I apologize in advance for some of the language as he has been very upset and this guy ( who seems to be about 40) has been really obnoxiously calling him names since the discussion started a day ago. I could edit it out if it offends )
==-=-=-=-
"I hate you. Idiot...Wolves are EXTREMELY important for the ecosystem.Have you never heard that they eat dead bodies found in the forest?They clean the forest.So what if they kill deers?It's the circle of life, many animals(humans) kill deers,or something else,because they have to eat. It's not true that a stuffed wolf would chase and kill another animal, exception being killing for puppies' meat or killing the intruders who get too close to their nest. I hope you don't get the tag.BTW,fuck you!"
-=-=-=-=-=-
By the way he does not use this language in everyday life and he does not call his sister any names , or me and dad , even when he is upset.
He has really been into wolves lately and has read about 10 books he got in the library about wolves. He also looks up videos on youtube and that is how this started.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Oh and I just noticed that he used capitalization too!
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 13, 2011, at 9:08 PM, rinelle2011 wrote:
What has *he* asked for? What parts does *he* want ideas for? Have you asked him if he wants ideas?
You said he's open to unschooling so maybe he does want some ideas. You said he grew up in an authoritarian home so he probably has a limited tool box of ideas to draw from. But *he* needs to want ideas for the parts that are bothering *him*. That's true whether the other person is a child or an adult.
He also needs to trust himself that he has the ability to figure this out. If you're watching him, judging him, and he's coming up short in your eyes, that's going to undermine his confidence. You need to look at what he's doing right and project confidence that he can figure this out. Again, true whether a child or an adult.
If he wants ideas, you could bring his wording here (not filtered through your ideas of what needs fixing about him.)
Possibly, with his permission, if he wants them, -- depending on how much he trusts that you're *not* trying to fix him -- you might send him a general list of ideas that has worked for you. And then back off. Let him work with them. Or not.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> My husband really struggles with being able to tell when to let herWell, this is you watching him and judging his performance. Then you're deciding where he's going wrong, what needs fixed, and asking for solutions for him.
> have her way (if it's not going to affect him) and when not to.
> He is far more likely to accept being uncomfortable because he has
> nowhere to sit, then letting her download the version of the game she wants,
What has *he* asked for? What parts does *he* want ideas for? Have you asked him if he wants ideas?
You said he's open to unschooling so maybe he does want some ideas. You said he grew up in an authoritarian home so he probably has a limited tool box of ideas to draw from. But *he* needs to want ideas for the parts that are bothering *him*. That's true whether the other person is a child or an adult.
He also needs to trust himself that he has the ability to figure this out. If you're watching him, judging him, and he's coming up short in your eyes, that's going to undermine his confidence. You need to look at what he's doing right and project confidence that he can figure this out. Again, true whether a child or an adult.
If he wants ideas, you could bring his wording here (not filtered through your ideas of what needs fixing about him.)
Possibly, with his permission, if he wants them, -- depending on how much he trusts that you're *not* trying to fix him -- you might send him a general list of ideas that has worked for you. And then back off. Let him work with them. Or not.
Joyce
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Sandra Dodd
-=-He has really been into wolves lately and has read about 10 books he got in the library about wolves. He also looks up videos on youtube and that is how this started.-=-
I liked his punctuation, but maybe asking him to balance his opinion, to tone it down, could be helpful. He's getting frothed up about something about which he might want to consider the other side of the argument.
Have you talked to him about wolves and calves? He's living on a dairy farm. And I take it your calves aren't just any old "love children" of bored and rutting bulls and cows left to their own devices. But people whose herds increased the natural way aren't fond of wolves, coyotes, or other people's dogs. For good reasons.
Dead bodies in the forest take care of themselves, or birds or ground-animals, insects, worms do that. It seems to me that woves' biggest fans are dreamy-eyed city kids. OF COURSE I could be wrong about a lot of wolf-return proponents, and your son isn't one, but having grown up in the non-urban western U.S., with parents and grandparents who did too (and I don't know how far back some of the greaty-greats were in the southeastern U.S., also farmers or small-town people), the idea that wolves rights would be held up over the safety of people, their livestock and their pets seems unfair or unbalanced. (Not mentally unbalanced; rhetorically unbalanced.)
But the punctuation was cool. :-)
Especially the apostrophe in "puppies' meat".
Sandra
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I liked his punctuation, but maybe asking him to balance his opinion, to tone it down, could be helpful. He's getting frothed up about something about which he might want to consider the other side of the argument.
Have you talked to him about wolves and calves? He's living on a dairy farm. And I take it your calves aren't just any old "love children" of bored and rutting bulls and cows left to their own devices. But people whose herds increased the natural way aren't fond of wolves, coyotes, or other people's dogs. For good reasons.
Dead bodies in the forest take care of themselves, or birds or ground-animals, insects, worms do that. It seems to me that woves' biggest fans are dreamy-eyed city kids. OF COURSE I could be wrong about a lot of wolf-return proponents, and your son isn't one, but having grown up in the non-urban western U.S., with parents and grandparents who did too (and I don't know how far back some of the greaty-greats were in the southeastern U.S., also farmers or small-town people), the idea that wolves rights would be held up over the safety of people, their livestock and their pets seems unfair or unbalanced. (Not mentally unbalanced; rhetorically unbalanced.)
But the punctuation was cool. :-)
Especially the apostrophe in "puppies' meat".
Sandra
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Genevieve Raymond
the idea that wolves rights would be held up over the safety of people,
their livestock and their pets seems unfair or unbalanced. (Not mentally
unbalanced; rhetorically unbalanced.)
And of course there are those who'd say that putting the welfare of one
species and their pets or livestock over that of the larger ecosystem is
where the unfairness lies! ;)
Maybe he's thought about the livestock vs. wolves thing and still came out
for the wolves?
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their livestock and their pets seems unfair or unbalanced. (Not mentally
unbalanced; rhetorically unbalanced.)
And of course there are those who'd say that putting the welfare of one
species and their pets or livestock over that of the larger ecosystem is
where the unfairness lies! ;)
Maybe he's thought about the livestock vs. wolves thing and still came out
for the wolves?
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