[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/02 2:49:38 PM, fetteroll@... writes:

<< AlwaysLearning has a different feel I
think because it tends to draw more long time unschoolers than newbies. >>

YES!!!!

And now that the other list isn't such a dark alley, I won't feel bad about
sending newer newbies there if they're frustrated with the high level / low
traffic posts here.

Dan, you should just stay here and be special.

Have I missed responding to anything here? I thought I was (AS usual)
hogging the stage.

I want to talk about my hardest thing ever to talk about. That is this: how
many integrity points do I lose (or does anyone lose) by saying "Oh, anyone
can unschool" when that truly seems NOT to be the case? I still don't know a
way to preface the unschooling intro to weed out people who might possibly
be... (glancing around and not actually seeing any eyes to gauge by, and so
risking insult to an unknown reader; I hope not) ... *dull*.

If a parent really does think learning stuff is boring, and that museums are
stupid, and that most music "isn't really music," and that art supplies and
kitchen science make more mess than they're worth, shouldn't I just send them
and advertisement for Calvert or something?

Sandra

Pam Hartley

I gave a little talk at our support group's general meeting (my subject was
unschooling, others were covering school in a box, Charlotte Mason,
Montessori, and "eclectic" ((station break: the concept of "eclectic" drives
me mildly insane as the person talking was claiming to take the best from
everything, including unschooling, which is NOT possible part-time and I'd
JUST got done saying that, but we're not here to talk about my control
issues and my deep and abiding compulsion to bite people who claim to
unschool everything but math and science, so let's move on...))) and when I
was done I said, "Look, do what seems most sensible and natural to you, but
just keep in mind that if you or the kids DON'T PASSIONATELY LOVE what
you're doing, you DO have other options, okay?"

Any kid can unschool, but they need family involvement and support and
understanding-of-unschooling to do it. Or, as I said in my talk <g>, they
need car rides, the checkbook, and a parent who is paying attention to their
real interests, not the interests they'd like them to have.

Pam

----------
From: SandraDodd@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] People who perhaps maybe cannot or should not
unschool
Date: Sun, Apr 28, 2002, 2:37 PM


I want to talk about my hardest thing ever to talk about. That is this:
how
many integrity points do I lose (or does anyone lose) by saying "Oh, anyone
can unschool" when that truly seems NOT to be the case? I still don't know
a
way to preface the unschooling intro to weed out people who might possibly
be... (glancing around and not actually seeing any eyes to gauge by, and so
risking insult to an unknown reader; I hope not) ... *dull*.

If a parent really does think learning stuff is boring, and that museums are
stupid, and that most music "isn't really music," and that art supplies and
kitchen science make more mess than they're worth, shouldn't I just send
them
and advertisement for Calvert or something?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Jon and Rue Kream

>>>> claiming to take the best from
everything, including unschooling, which is NOT possible part-time


This is my absolute biggest pet peeve of all time. I do not understand why
it is so difficult to understand that you can't unschool, but....or
unschool, except....!!!!

~Rue



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

homeschoolmd

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
I still don't know a
> way to preface the unschooling intro to weed out people who might
possibly
> be... (glancing around and not actually seeing any eyes to gauge
by, and so
> risking insult to an unknown reader; I hope not) ... *dull*.

Why do you want to weed anyone out?

Whenever someone asks a question that has been beaten to death on the
message board and can be looked at there, I've noticed you pointed
them in that direction. That should prevent *dull* conversation.

The reason I am here is because I truly want to *learn* to unschool.
I'm certainly not someone cut out for this but I am going to make it
work and I need the help of seasoned unschoolers like the people on
this list.

"Swirling" does not seem as important as "child led" on other
unschooling lists. I want to learn to "swirl", anyone can follow
a "child led" approach but not everyone can "swirl".

Sandra, don't send us away because we are dull.

Pat


>
> If a parent really does think learning stuff is boring, and that
museums are
> stupid, and that most music "isn't really music," and that art
supplies and
> kitchen science make more mess than they're worth, shouldn't I just
send them
> and advertisement for Calvert or something?
>
> Sandra

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/02 6:37:21 PM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< Why do you want to weed anyone out? >>

Because if I/we/people make assurances that something will work and others
try it based on our confident advice, and if it really doesn't work because
we were insufficiently informative OR (in the scenario I'm thinking of)
because they weren't suited to it, didn't have the
ability/resources/aptitude, we may contributed to some big frustration.
We're trying to help families, not frustrate the hell out of them.

Sometimes people will stay on lists like this for two or three years and ask
100 questions and still really, truly not get it. Sometimes people will come
and say "I did what you guys said, and six months later my kids won't do
ANYTHING. I keep watching them and waiting, but they haven't done ANY
schoolwork."

If I were going to teach music, I wouldn't want to keep a student and take
money if it really looked like he didn't have the physical coordination or
the ear or the rhythmic sense to tell one style of music from another. It
would be wasting his time and his money, and wasting my time, AND making me
look like a bad teacher. If he takes lessons for a year or two and there's
not much progress, it would be a kindness for me to suggest something more to
his liking.

-=-"Swirling" does not seem as important as "child led" on other
unschooling lists. I want to learn to "swirl", anyone can follow
a "child led" approach but not everyone can "swirl".-=-

"Child led" might not go anywhere if the parents are dull.

Sandra

Sandra

[email protected]

Worse yet, there are people who don't even really like to be with their
kids.

One mom I know wondered why her little girl wanted to go back to school
and then it came out that the mom had to have her alone time and had to
have her time to paint and just couldn't stand kids games. Well, school
might look pretty good to someone who's mom was simply too busy to be
with her, or too bored.

Maybe parents can change once they understand what unschooling is?
How long does it take to understand? Would someone too *dull* really
turn everything around?

I just don't know how helpful it is to say anyone can unschool. Anyone
who really delights in their children maybe, but not just anyone.
Maybe just people who haven't been bitten by Pam.

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/28/02 7:25:50 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< Maybe parents can change once they understand what unschooling is?
How long does it take to understand? Would someone too *dull* really
turn everything around? >>

From the point of view of a child who wants to play, a parent who does NOT
want to play must seem dull.

I've heard parents (not unschoolers, but homeschooling parents) say they
cannot stand ANY kids' TV shows.

I read a guy who had otherwise been highly recommended (who wrote the essay a
couple of months back about going to his kid's school to talk to the teachers
about a test or something) who was complaining mightily that Sesame Street
was still teaching the alphabet and the numbers 1-20 after 30 years. WELL
DUH! Did he expect them to follow HIS personal learning curve??

Tangent. But still...

Sandra

KT

>
>
>If a parent really does think learning stuff is boring, and that museums are
>stupid, and that most music "isn't really music," and that art supplies and
>kitchen science make more mess than they're worth, shouldn't I just send them
>and advertisement for Calvert or something?
>

Yes.

They'll either feel unwelcome and go buy Calvert, or they'll be
challenged and come to the list anyway. If they post their naive,
insolent posts about how *their* kids need structure and then they can
stand the "unschooling barrage" they will get in return, well, that's my
kind of folk.

Tuck

[email protected]

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 07:37:55 -0500 KT <Tuck@...> writes:

> If they post their naive,
> insolent posts about how *their* kids need structure and then they
> can
> stand the "unschooling barrage" they will get in return, well,
> that's my
> kind of folk.

This is where my eyes start rolling around in my head. I know there has
to be some process for getting over long held ideas about parenting but
when the "they need structure, they have disorders, they'll only ever eat
paper clips" thing starts, my head wants to explode.

The truth is, if you ask this kind of person why they must parent this
way, they really don't know. They'll have some vague answer about how
"if we lived in a perfect world, yada, yada" but they really have no
idea why they think the way they do. THEN, if you offer up a new way to
look at things, you've attacked them.
Maybe this is just one horrible flashback to that other list.

I really fall down when it comes to the folks who can only find
wrongness and badness and failure in their kids.

I guess everyone has to start somewhere. If they're looking at their
kids and thinking there must be a better way, then they should have a
place to ask all the questions they need to. And like Tuck said, if they
can stand the answers they get then good for them.

Are you really thinking of changing the intro to the list. My
suggestion... " If you say something unbelievably stupid we WILL attack
you and if you whine about it we will send someone to your house to beat
you up."

I may be feeling a little hostile here. I'm expecting a huge influx
(reflux?) of in laws next month and NOT looking forward to the
questions... "when is he going to go to school?" When hell freezes
over, "does he like his hair that long?" No, we force him, " When is
he going to eat meat?" When all the paper clips are gone.

Deb L

Pam Hartley

Now why do I think she has me in mind when she writes these things? <g>

Pam, looking for brass knuckles...

----------
From: ddzimlew@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] People who perhaps maybe cannot or should not
unschool
Date: Mon, Apr 29, 2002, 7:08 AM


Are you really thinking of changing the intro to the list. My
suggestion... " If you say something unbelievably stupid we WILL attack
you and if you whine about it we will send someone to your house to beat
you up."



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

zenmomma *

>>If a parent really does think learning stuff is boring, and that museums
>>are stupid, and that most music "isn't really music," and that art
>>supplies and kitchen science make more mess than they're worth, shouldn't
>>I just send them and advertisement for Calvert or something?>>

I'd prefer that we just start unschooling the parent. Sounds like the've got
some serious school induced damage there. I wouldn't send anyone away with
giving it a shot.

Life is good.
~Mary


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zenmomma *

>>Or, as I said in my talk <g>, they need car rides, the checkbook, and a
>>parent who is paying attention to their real interests, not the interests
>>they'd like them to have.>>

Which brings to mind Conor and his weapons. :-P~~~~~ Not real ones, but a
fascination and deep interest in everything to do with them. We're now
moving into paintball guns and driving him to play paintball games. Yuck.
But they're his interests. Right?

Life is good.
~Mary


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zenmomma *

>>If I were going to teach music, I wouldn't want to keep a student and take
>>money if it really looked like he didn't have the physical coordination or
>>the ear or the rhythmic sense to tell one style of music from another.>>

But where is it said that he doesn't like it just because he's not very
proficient in it? Isn't there *some* benefit to be had in taking the
lessons, even if he doesn't progress to become a full-fledged musician?
Isn't that what unschooling is all about? (Among other things, obviously
;-)) Exposure and dabbling and trying things out? Using things for *your*
benefit and not necessarly for someone else's expected outcome? Don't
parents get *some* benefit from reading all about unschooling? Don't the
kids? Aren't the parents likely to take something away that will be of
benefit for both?

>>It would be wasting his time and his money, and wasting my time, AND
>>making me look like a bad teacher.>>

Are we afraid of looking like bad unschooling teachers?

>>If he takes lessons for a year or two and there's not much progress, it
>>would be a kindness for me to suggest something more to his liking.>>

Couldn't he still do both? Music and other things? As long as no one told
him he sucked at music, couldn't he still get some value from it? Wouldn't
it be better for *him* to decide this was something he didn't want to
pursue?

More questions than answers. Sorry. :-/

Life is good.
~Mary


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Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.

zenmomma *

>>I really fall down when it comes to the folks who can only find
wrongness and badness and failure in their kids.>>

I extend this to folks who can only find wrongness and badness and failure
in other adults. I like to allow for the benefit of the doubt in the parents
who come here. I like to assume that people who come here are looking for
alternatives, even if they're not open to them right now. Maybe I'll plant a
seed that will sprout later. Doesn't mean I won't tell them if they're WRONG
though. ;-)

Life is good.
~Mary


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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/02 11:16:22 AM, zenmomma@... writes:

<< But where is it said that he doesn't like it just because he's not very
proficient in it? Isn't there *some* benefit to be had in taking the
lessons, even if he doesn't progress to become a full-fledged musician? >>

If we were having a fun hour together every week and the parents didn't mind
that there might not be much progress ever, if any, I would just want to be
honest with the parents about that. Otherwise the child will say "I took
lessons for years, and can't remember a thing about this instrument," or the
parents might (if the teacher isn't clear), say "WHY can't he play now?"

If it's English instead of music, and if I trust the public school model, I
can tell the parents something like this:

Because he doesn't apply himself.
Because he's not paying attention to directions.
Because he doesn't finish his homework.
He's too shy to contribute in class.
You don't help him with his homework.

If you teach English and a kid doesn't get it whatsoever, the system is set
up so that it's not the teacher's fault.

Private music lessons, though, aren't that way.

<<Isn't that what unschooling is all about? (Among other things, obviously
;-)) Exposure and dabbling and trying things out?>>

What if they don't dabble and try things out? That's my whole question. What
if the family does NOTHING, can't do anything, doesn't realize other people
are doing something or that there is "something" to do?

<<Using things for *your*
benefit and not necessarly for someone else's expected outcome? Don't
parents get *some* benefit from reading all about unschooling?>>

I'm wondering about some parents who seem to get no benefit from reading all
about unschooling. Or they ask a question, ignore or misunderstand the
answer, do some weird version of nothing, and come back a year later and tell
us we were wrong and gave bad advice.

<<Aren't the parents likely to take something away that will be of
benefit for both?>>

If so, no argument.
My question is about people who seem not to take anything beneficial away.

<<>>It would be wasting his time and his money, and wasting my time, AND
>>making me look like a bad teacher.>>

<<Are we afraid of looking like bad unschooling teachers?>>

I am.

If I'm teaching diving and I have one champion lifeguard swimmer/scuba diver,
and one gangly non-swimmer, and I give them the same instructions and send
them out on the board... I'm a bad diving instructor!!!!!!!!!!!

<<Couldn't he still do both? Music and other things? As long as no one told
him he sucked at music, couldn't he still get some value from it? Wouldn't
it be better for *him* to decide this was something he didn't want to
pursue?>>

Yes, yes, yes and yes.
What if he thinks the method is what will eventually work, and that if he
pays his $15 and comes to class and doesn't lose his notbook and keeps
strings on his guitar that eventually this will lead to playing along with a
bluegrass band (at least), have I misled him?

If a family thinks that keeping kids home and letting them explore on their
own (and maybe their entire image of "letting them explore on their own" is
just as brief and black-and-white as that phrase just appeared in this
e-mail) will eventually lead to their knowing enough to support themselves,
or get into college, and if fifteen years down the road their kids knows ZIP,
we were bad teachers.

Is part of teaching or coaching weeding out those who won't make it?

Sandra

[email protected]

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 09:27:02 -0700 Pam Hartley
<pamhartley@...> writes:
> Now why do I think she has me in mind when she writes these things?
> <g>
>
> Pam, looking for brass knuckles...


Well... if the bite marks fit.... <g>

Deb L

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/02 11:57:01 AM, pamhartley@... writes:

<< Now why do I think she has me in mind when she writes these things? <g>

Pam, looking for brass knuckles...
>>

Couldn't you just train your dogs to run up and pee on unwanted "visitors"?

Diane

How 'bout the parent who just prefers the chair to anything else? They *like*
museums, music, and art, but going to the library to read about them is just too
much trouble.

:-) Diane

zenmomma * wrote:

> >>If a parent really does think learning stuff is boring, and that museums
> >>are stupid, and that most music "isn't really music," and that art
> >>supplies and kitchen science make more mess than they're worth, shouldn't
> >>I just send them and advertisement for Calvert or something?>>
>
> I'd prefer that we just start unschooling the parent. Sounds like the've got
> some serious school induced damage there. I wouldn't send anyone away with
> giving it a shot.
>
> Life is good.
> ~Mary
>
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[email protected]

> I extend this to folks who can only find wrongness and badness and
> failure
> in other adults.

Are you attacking me? <g> <snort>

Your right of course, that sounded very broad, but I've only ever come
across a few of this sort. Maybe it's that they stick with you like poop
on your shoe.

> I like to assume that people who come here are looking for
>alternatives,

That's a good assumption, and right, I think. I was thinking of those
who hear the alternatives and then tell you they couldn't possibly work
because little Peleg would just try to poke his own eyes out if she
didn't make him study the spelling list.

I don't assume all parents are this way, maybe it sounded like I do. I
don't. Just the one's who really are.

Deb L

Fetteroll

on 4/28/02 5:37 PM, SandraDodd@... at SandraDodd@... wrote:

> If a parent really does think learning stuff is boring, and that museums are
> stupid, and that most music "isn't really music," and that art supplies and
> kitchen science make more mess than they're worth, shouldn't I just send them
> and advertisement for Calvert or something?

I like what Anne Ohman wrote on the message board:

> there is SOME impetus that makes us LOOK for answers when we feel something is
> not just right. And if you don't have that impetus, then you are just not
> ready for the answers yet.

So I think coming to unschooling people need to have the feeling that
there's something not right in what they're doing with homeschooling and
there's something about unschooling that appeals to them.

Maybe wanting learning to be fun also?

I'm not sure wanting what unschooling seems to be offering is enough because
you need the motivation to do what needs done to "get" unschooling. It's not
a formula that can be applied and just happen.

I don't know if that's enough to help people coming directly from school.
Wanting a child out of school isn't the same as feeling there's something
wrong with schoolish ways. There may just be a feeling there's something
wrong with how the school is implementing schoolish ways.

I think part of the problem is parents hearing the "child-led" part and
getting an image of Thomas Edison pursuing his own studies in the basement.

So what traits do parents who don't like museums and messy art have that no
unschooler has had? Maybe it's that they don't like spending time with their
kids?

Joyce

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/29/02 3:10:48 PM, ddzimlew@... writes:

<< little Peleg would just try to poke his own eyes out >>

Polk?

Polka Your Eyes Out
(a Weird Al Yankovic title...)

zenmomma *

>>How 'bout the parent who just prefers the chair to anything else? They
>>*like* museums, music, and art, but going to the library to read about
>>them is just too much trouble.>>

I'm confused. (A state I visit often. ;-)) Do you mean a parent who likes
those things but is too lazy to get out of the chair to go do them? Or do
you mean they won't take it the extra step to also read about it?

Life is good.
~Mary


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[email protected]

On Mon, 29 Apr 2002 17:14:58 EDT SandraDodd@... writes:

> Polk?
>
> Polka Your Eyes Out
> (a Weird Al Yankovic title...)


Ok, so, I've laughed until I can't laugh any more and I'm still laughing.
It hurts, but probably not as much as a polka.

Deb L, wiping tears.

zenmomma *

>>I'm wondering about some parents who seem to get no benefit from reading
>>all about unschooling. Or they ask a question, ignore or misunderstand
>>the answer, do some weird version of nothing, and come back a year later
>>and tell us we were wrong and gave bad advice.>>

Maybe that's the time to redirect them somewhere else. To another method
that will actually have someone helping the kid. I don't see how we can
decide beforehand who will not "get it" though.

>>My question is about people who seem not to take anything beneficial
>>away.>>

How can we judge that though?

>>Is part of teaching or coaching weeding out those who won't make it?>>

I hear what you're saying. But I was one of those kids (adults) that coaches
in particular always liked to weed out. Maybe it's from that standpoint that
I have a problem with this.

~Mary

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zenmomma *

>>>I extend this to folks who can only find wrongness and badness and
failure in other adults.>>>

>>Are you attacking me? <g> <snort>>

Oh my heck, no! :-o

Life is good.
~Mary

(BTW Oh my heck = ridiculous Utah-Mormon exclamation)


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joanna514

> "does he like his hair that long?" No, we force him, " >
> Deb L>>

I have a long haired 5yo ds. Thanks to unschooling I have given up a
lot of control, and am still working on letting go of more. I
figured when people started assuming he was a girl at first glance,
he would ask for his hair to be cut. Nope.
My dh has long hair and a good friend of my older son(8) has long hair
(he's 11), so my 5yo has cool role models. He is very confident
about just stating he is a boy, when people mistake him.
I wish I were better at it. I feel uneasy for people when I know
they are confused by his clothes and his "boyness", but also feel
weird about offering the information to them(that's up to my son). I
have heard disparaging comments about my older ds friend and his
hair, when people didn't know I was the mother of my 5yo.
It's a stange thing how much of a lesson this has been for me.
It has been a forced process of letting go of what others think, and
realizing how much it really doesn't matter.
Joanna

Sharon Rudd

Maybe I'll plant a
> seed that will sprout later.

I planted some seeds two years ago that only came up
this week!!!!?????. The puppies dug them up as soon
as they were noticeable.

Happens to ideas too. Growing is difficult for some,
and more difficult in different environments.

Sharon of the Swamp

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[email protected]

In a message dated 4/30/02 11:03:55 AM, bearspawprint@... writes:

<< The puppies dug them up as soon
as they were noticeable.

Happens to ideas too. >>

Puppies dug up your ideas!??!!!!


We were going to sprout some tree-seeds. ONE has sprouted, out of about 70.
Lots of hard-seed things seem to stay in the ground and can sprout up years
after the original deposit of seeds.

Sandra

Diane

This reminds me of my parents who said I couldn't take ballet (after *years* of
wanting to) because I'd never be a professional ballerina. SO?!

:-) Diane

> >>If I were going to teach music, I wouldn't want to keep a student and take
> >>money if it really looked like he didn't have the physical coordination or
> >>the ear or the rhythmic sense to tell one style of music from another.>>

Diane

Are you who gets sent to their houses?

:-) Diane

Pam Hartley wrote:

> Now why do I think she has me in mind when she writes these things? <g>
>
> Pam, looking for brass knuckles...
>
> ----------
> From: ddzimlew@...
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] People who perhaps maybe cannot or should not
> unschool
> Date: Mon, Apr 29, 2002, 7:08 AM
>
> Are you really thinking of changing the intro to the list. My
> suggestion... " If you say something unbelievably stupid we WILL attack
> you and if you whine about it we will send someone to your house to beat
> you up."