Email from concerned family member
nalmeida12
I just got an email from my cousin's husband who thinks I should not allow my 10 year old to play violent video games. He and my cousin have a 15 year old (his son from a previous marriage) who has been arrested twice, has ran away and has been experimenting with drugs. Their relationship with this boy has been violent, full of anger and lack of communication- extremely sad to watch. His mother had custody and then she threw him out 3 years ago. This year, they decided to pull him from school to try online classes. They are controlling every aspect of his life- including his gaming, which he used to be able to do as he pleased in the past. Now gaming is used as a reward for good behavior/ good grades etc. On the surface, he seems to be doing well. It's been a couple of months and now both of them think they found the holy grail of parenting. The husband has demonized gaming in his email to me. He is warning me everything that happened to his kid will happen to mine.
I feel I have to respond because he's always been the alarmist in the family. I don't want him to start talking about us negatively to the rest of the family. I don't need lots of concerned family members calling, dropping by or writing. Or worse. I just need a nice way to tell him it's none of his concern. I never butt into their lives.
Here is an excerpt from his email to me about his concerns:
"you know me I can only be sincere towards you specially when it comes to Neo and God only knows my situation with Sebastian right now is less then ordinary to try to be a voice of reason but from hard experience, but If I don't tell you, will be doing you a disservice:
while you may have Neos online gaming supervision tight, your flaw is the hardcore games that you are currently allowing him to play. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think that you know the effect that these
blood gorry games have on the personality of these kids. I can only tell you from my own experience with Sebastian and the total asshole selfish bastard that he has become since he started playing these games. God if I had only listened to my Mom
when she kept nagging me about not be gettings these games for Sebastian and let me tell you Nuria the games that were available for Sebastian back when he was Neos current age were way way less graphic that the games that Neo is playing now.
Nuria these games were design to desensitize kids, strip them of their humanity and turn them into little monsters totally addicted to adrenaline rush they get from killing. Have you noticed any change in Neos Behaviour?: over sensitivity? - cursing?
withdrawn to only wanting to play the games? - mood swings?
I've had talks with 2 other parents whos kids play online with Sebastian and identified all of these symptoms on their kids not to mention the beginning of drug use mostly experimenting getting high with house products which apparently is a big thing
with gamers being that they are too young to get their hands on street drugs and they get high with some house cleaning products prior to playing the games to prove themselves as being able to fight under any condition, this is how they are initiated into
the elite clans and many of then end up dead on their kitchen floor. Nuria it is very difficult to raise a teen in this age and age, and these games raise the hormones of these kids through the roof making a disaster out of a hot mess for a parent. You have a beautiful family
don't let this nightmare into your home. the first thing that went through my head when the shit hit the fan with Sebastian was: "Damn, I should have had a no violent game rule with Sebastian"
Nuria
I feel I have to respond because he's always been the alarmist in the family. I don't want him to start talking about us negatively to the rest of the family. I don't need lots of concerned family members calling, dropping by or writing. Or worse. I just need a nice way to tell him it's none of his concern. I never butt into their lives.
Here is an excerpt from his email to me about his concerns:
"you know me I can only be sincere towards you specially when it comes to Neo and God only knows my situation with Sebastian right now is less then ordinary to try to be a voice of reason but from hard experience, but If I don't tell you, will be doing you a disservice:
while you may have Neos online gaming supervision tight, your flaw is the hardcore games that you are currently allowing him to play. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think that you know the effect that these
blood gorry games have on the personality of these kids. I can only tell you from my own experience with Sebastian and the total asshole selfish bastard that he has become since he started playing these games. God if I had only listened to my Mom
when she kept nagging me about not be gettings these games for Sebastian and let me tell you Nuria the games that were available for Sebastian back when he was Neos current age were way way less graphic that the games that Neo is playing now.
Nuria these games were design to desensitize kids, strip them of their humanity and turn them into little monsters totally addicted to adrenaline rush they get from killing. Have you noticed any change in Neos Behaviour?: over sensitivity? - cursing?
withdrawn to only wanting to play the games? - mood swings?
I've had talks with 2 other parents whos kids play online with Sebastian and identified all of these symptoms on their kids not to mention the beginning of drug use mostly experimenting getting high with house products which apparently is a big thing
with gamers being that they are too young to get their hands on street drugs and they get high with some house cleaning products prior to playing the games to prove themselves as being able to fight under any condition, this is how they are initiated into
the elite clans and many of then end up dead on their kitchen floor. Nuria it is very difficult to raise a teen in this age and age, and these games raise the hormones of these kids through the roof making a disaster out of a hot mess for a parent. You have a beautiful family
don't let this nightmare into your home. the first thing that went through my head when the shit hit the fan with Sebastian was: "Damn, I should have had a no violent game rule with Sebastian"
Nuria
Joyce Fetteroll
I would begin setting the stage by agreeing with him and then take a different route. Such as:
========
I totally get where you're coming from. There does seem to be a strong relationship between violence and violent video games.
But what I'm observing with Neo is very different. He is drawn to these games *because* they don't hurt real people so he can play with the ideas of combat strategy and skills without harming anyone to do it. For him it's a safe way to explore these fascinating puzzles. For him the draw is finding better puzzles to solve not finding ways to cause real pain.
There seems to be two types of people who are drawn to violent entertainment. One are people like Neo who have no desire to hurt real living things but are fascinated by the mathematical strategies of the hunt. They're people who appreciate separating the skills from the bad consequences they don't want to inflict on real living things.
The other kids are hurting, angry, disconnected, often kids who adults connect to through their behavior rather than connect to through who the kids are.
Maybe Sebastian has met up with a slew of bad teachers who have punished him for bad behavior rather than trying to see the need beneath the behavior, trying to help him meet the needs in safe and respectful ways. I don't know what happened, but I'm betting he feels the person inside him is unloved and so feels why should he care about anyone else. And these angry, hurt feelings are drawn to violence and self destruction.
This is something we're very conscious of with Neo. We want him to see us as his partners, people who will help him find respectful ways to meet his *underlying* needs, rather than feeling his needs have to pass some test of approval. We don't want him to feel our answer is likely to be no since, if the need is great enough, he'll go to someone else who doesn't have his best interest at heart.
Have you read Parent/Teen Breakthrough: The relationship approach by Mira Kirchenbaum? I've heard nothing but wonderful things about it being a guide for caring parents of troubled teens.
I do intend to keep a close eye on Neo to see if the violent play carries over into wanting to harm others or himself, but so far there is absolutely no sign and he's a very happy kid.
========
Or something along those lines.
Joyce
========
I totally get where you're coming from. There does seem to be a strong relationship between violence and violent video games.
But what I'm observing with Neo is very different. He is drawn to these games *because* they don't hurt real people so he can play with the ideas of combat strategy and skills without harming anyone to do it. For him it's a safe way to explore these fascinating puzzles. For him the draw is finding better puzzles to solve not finding ways to cause real pain.
There seems to be two types of people who are drawn to violent entertainment. One are people like Neo who have no desire to hurt real living things but are fascinated by the mathematical strategies of the hunt. They're people who appreciate separating the skills from the bad consequences they don't want to inflict on real living things.
The other kids are hurting, angry, disconnected, often kids who adults connect to through their behavior rather than connect to through who the kids are.
Maybe Sebastian has met up with a slew of bad teachers who have punished him for bad behavior rather than trying to see the need beneath the behavior, trying to help him meet the needs in safe and respectful ways. I don't know what happened, but I'm betting he feels the person inside him is unloved and so feels why should he care about anyone else. And these angry, hurt feelings are drawn to violence and self destruction.
This is something we're very conscious of with Neo. We want him to see us as his partners, people who will help him find respectful ways to meet his *underlying* needs, rather than feeling his needs have to pass some test of approval. We don't want him to feel our answer is likely to be no since, if the need is great enough, he'll go to someone else who doesn't have his best interest at heart.
Have you read Parent/Teen Breakthrough: The relationship approach by Mira Kirchenbaum? I've heard nothing but wonderful things about it being a guide for caring parents of troubled teens.
I do intend to keep a close eye on Neo to see if the violent play carries over into wanting to harm others or himself, but so far there is absolutely no sign and he's a very happy kid.
========
Or something along those lines.
Joyce
Sandra Dodd
-=-He and my cousin have a 15 year old (his son from a previous marriage) who has been arrested twice, has ran away and has been experimenting with drugs. Their relationship with this boy has been violent, full of anger and lack of communication- extremely sad to watch. -=-
Depending how far he will go to use the rest of the family to pressure you, you might want to buy a copy of the book
The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce
http://www.webheights.net/dividedheart/waller/uld.htm
Here's one with an audio file:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/january01/wallerstein.html
A child doesn't run away from home if he's happily playing a video game and is glad of the loving relationship he has with his parents.
A child doesn't experiment with drugs because a video game tells him it's cool.
Whatever the boy went to jail for, it probably happened in public. If he had been home playing a video game, he wouldn't have been in trouble with the police.
If your own family is intact and your cousin's husband was unable to keep his family together, you don't need to take his advice at all. It sounds REALLY harsh, but there his a huge difference between the life of a child who lives safely with his own two parents and a child who has suffered the horror (and it IS a horror for a child) of a broken home. And after the broken home moment come the years of going back and forth, hearing from each parent this or that (honest or fakey-nice) about the other, and being asked to accept and love and obey the next partners of the parents (or the string of temporary partners) and THEIR ideas about your other biological parent and your clothes hair and friends and hobbies and manners. And in adulthood, the difficult considerations about who's invited to weddings, births, parties. Where one goes on holidays. Who is called first in the event of an injury or hospitalization, since one call no longer goes to both parents.
The video game hasn't been invented that begins to simulate all of that.
Video games are make-believe.
Divorce and harsh parenting are reality.
Sandra
Depending how far he will go to use the rest of the family to pressure you, you might want to buy a copy of the book
The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce
http://www.webheights.net/dividedheart/waller/uld.htm
Here's one with an audio file:
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/forum/january01/wallerstein.html
A child doesn't run away from home if he's happily playing a video game and is glad of the loving relationship he has with his parents.
A child doesn't experiment with drugs because a video game tells him it's cool.
Whatever the boy went to jail for, it probably happened in public. If he had been home playing a video game, he wouldn't have been in trouble with the police.
If your own family is intact and your cousin's husband was unable to keep his family together, you don't need to take his advice at all. It sounds REALLY harsh, but there his a huge difference between the life of a child who lives safely with his own two parents and a child who has suffered the horror (and it IS a horror for a child) of a broken home. And after the broken home moment come the years of going back and forth, hearing from each parent this or that (honest or fakey-nice) about the other, and being asked to accept and love and obey the next partners of the parents (or the string of temporary partners) and THEIR ideas about your other biological parent and your clothes hair and friends and hobbies and manners. And in adulthood, the difficult considerations about who's invited to weddings, births, parties. Where one goes on holidays. Who is called first in the event of an injury or hospitalization, since one call no longer goes to both parents.
The video game hasn't been invented that begins to simulate all of that.
Video games are make-believe.
Divorce and harsh parenting are reality.
Sandra
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], "nalmeida12" <nalmeida12@...> wrote:
I share that opinion. I have a 16 year old son who has had a passion for 'violent' videogames for as long as I can remember (he's in his room playing one as I write - Assassins Creed 2). He also happens to be the most amiable and kindhearted teenage boy I've ever met. Coincidence? Maybe not. Perhaps I could claim that playing violent videogames causes amiability and kindheartedness.
Something else Marc Prensky tells me is that, in his experience, people who are "anti" videogames tend to be people who don't play videogames.
I've played nearly all the videogames my son has played. I wouldn't have had it otherwise. It's only in the past year or so that I haven't because his skills are so far ahead of mine now I became an embarrassment to play with and it was no fun for either of us any more. Such is life. There are only so many humiliating defeats a grown man can take. :-) In any event, I shared the exploration of violent behaviour through pixels on an electronic screen with my son for many years and I enjoyed myself. I've run through the streets of Saints Row merrily lobbing hand grenades at innocent passers by, I've blown the heads off Nazi zombies with a double barreled shotgun, I've crushed Russian soldiers under tanks, not to mention all the thousands of non-human representations I've slashed, shot, blown up or zapped. The number of times this has given me even the slightest urge to do something similar in reality is zero. It's never happened. But of course I'm a mature adult, aren't I? Children are children and don't know any better. Hmm ... Not necessarily. My son knows better than I do and always has done that they're games not real life. It's me who has the associations in my mind that can add unnecessary interpretations to what's happening. My son enjoys the games for the playing of the games.
When I consider the potential effects of violence in videogames on the developing mind of a child, I don't have to guess. I don't have to consult an "expert" who will quote research that I strongly suspect has been undertaken from an anti-videogame bias to begin with and about whose parameters and methodologies I know nothing (there's nothing scientific about the so-called "social sciences", by the way, but that's another story). I know what I know from real life experience, and I know that violence in videogames - even a ton of it every day - doesn't cause actual violence. Can it be a contributing factor? Yes, I think it can be if the games are a *reflection* of violent life circumstances. Where life circumstances are warm and friendly and conducive to happiness, such as they have been for my son, those circumstances prevail. And I have to say that they have prevailed without any need to 'counteract' or fight against any supposed negative effects of videogaming. In the 13 years that my son has been a "gamer", videogaming has simply never been an issue, in the same way that reading books has never been an issue, and watching TV has never been an issue, and so on.
To be perfectly frank, when somebody says to me, "Violent videogames cause violent behaviour", my initial thought is, "That's bullsh*t". And I mean it. Seriously. It's a mantra that belongs in a museum of simpleminded mantras along with "Rock and Roll will rot your brain" and the rest.
Human behaviour is far more complex than that, and sometimes digging a little deeper into that behaviour instead of looking for a scapegoat is a good idea.
My ten cents worth on the topic anyway.
Bob
>Marc Prensky, author of "Don't Bother Me Mom - I'm Learning: : How Computer and Video Games Are Preparing Your Kids For 21st Century Success -- and How You Can Help!", is of the opinion that videogaming is highly contextual. In other words, he suggests that the environment or atmosphere in which violent videogames are played is more of a determinant of the player's subsequent behaviour than the games themselves.
> I just got an email from my cousin's husband who thinks I should not allow my 10 year old to play violent video games. He and my cousin have a 15 year old (his son from a previous marriage) who has been arrested twice, has ran away and has been experimenting with drugs. Their relationship with this boy has been violent, full of anger and lack of communication- extremely sad to watch. His mother had custody and then she threw him out 3 years ago. This year, they decided to pull him from school to try online classes. They are controlling every aspect of his life- including his gaming, which he used to be able to do as he pleased in the past. Now gaming is used as a reward for good behavior/ good grades etc. On the surface, he seems to be doing well. It's been a couple of months and now both of them think they found the holy grail of parenting. The husband has demonized gaming in his email to me. He is warning me everything that happened to his kid will happen to mine.
>
> I feel I have to respond because he's always been the alarmist in the family. I don't want him to start talking about us negatively to the rest of the family. I don't need lots of concerned family members calling, dropping by or writing. Or worse. I just need a nice way to tell him it's none of his concern. I never butt into their lives.
>
> Here is an excerpt from his email to me about his concerns:
>
> "you know me I can only be sincere towards you specially when it comes to Neo and God only knows my situation with Sebastian right now is less then ordinary to try to be a voice of reason but from hard experience, but If I don't tell you, will be doing you a disservice:
> while you may have Neos online gaming supervision tight, your flaw is the hardcore games that you are currently allowing him to play. Please don't take this the wrong way, but I don't think that you know the effect that these
> blood gorry games have on the personality of these kids. I can only tell you from my own experience with Sebastian and the total asshole selfish bastard that he has become since he started playing these games. God if I had only listened to my Mom
> when she kept nagging me about not be gettings these games for Sebastian and let me tell you Nuria the games that were available for Sebastian back when he was Neos current age were way way less graphic that the games that Neo is playing now.
> Nuria these games were design to desensitize kids, strip them of their humanity and turn them into little monsters totally addicted to adrenaline rush they get from killing. Have you noticed any change in Neos Behaviour?: over sensitivity? - cursing?
> withdrawn to only wanting to play the games? - mood swings?
> I've had talks with 2 other parents whos kids play online with Sebastian and identified all of these symptoms on their kids not to mention the beginning of drug use mostly experimenting getting high with house products which apparently is a big thing
> with gamers being that they are too young to get their hands on street drugs and they get high with some house cleaning products prior to playing the games to prove themselves as being able to fight under any condition, this is how they are initiated into
> the elite clans and many of then end up dead on their kitchen floor. Nuria it is very difficult to raise a teen in this age and age, and these games raise the hormones of these kids through the roof making a disaster out of a hot mess for a parent. You have a beautiful family
> don't let this nightmare into your home. the first thing that went through my head when the shit hit the fan with Sebastian was: "Damn, I should have had a no violent game rule with Sebastian"
>
> Nuria
>
I share that opinion. I have a 16 year old son who has had a passion for 'violent' videogames for as long as I can remember (he's in his room playing one as I write - Assassins Creed 2). He also happens to be the most amiable and kindhearted teenage boy I've ever met. Coincidence? Maybe not. Perhaps I could claim that playing violent videogames causes amiability and kindheartedness.
Something else Marc Prensky tells me is that, in his experience, people who are "anti" videogames tend to be people who don't play videogames.
I've played nearly all the videogames my son has played. I wouldn't have had it otherwise. It's only in the past year or so that I haven't because his skills are so far ahead of mine now I became an embarrassment to play with and it was no fun for either of us any more. Such is life. There are only so many humiliating defeats a grown man can take. :-) In any event, I shared the exploration of violent behaviour through pixels on an electronic screen with my son for many years and I enjoyed myself. I've run through the streets of Saints Row merrily lobbing hand grenades at innocent passers by, I've blown the heads off Nazi zombies with a double barreled shotgun, I've crushed Russian soldiers under tanks, not to mention all the thousands of non-human representations I've slashed, shot, blown up or zapped. The number of times this has given me even the slightest urge to do something similar in reality is zero. It's never happened. But of course I'm a mature adult, aren't I? Children are children and don't know any better. Hmm ... Not necessarily. My son knows better than I do and always has done that they're games not real life. It's me who has the associations in my mind that can add unnecessary interpretations to what's happening. My son enjoys the games for the playing of the games.
When I consider the potential effects of violence in videogames on the developing mind of a child, I don't have to guess. I don't have to consult an "expert" who will quote research that I strongly suspect has been undertaken from an anti-videogame bias to begin with and about whose parameters and methodologies I know nothing (there's nothing scientific about the so-called "social sciences", by the way, but that's another story). I know what I know from real life experience, and I know that violence in videogames - even a ton of it every day - doesn't cause actual violence. Can it be a contributing factor? Yes, I think it can be if the games are a *reflection* of violent life circumstances. Where life circumstances are warm and friendly and conducive to happiness, such as they have been for my son, those circumstances prevail. And I have to say that they have prevailed without any need to 'counteract' or fight against any supposed negative effects of videogaming. In the 13 years that my son has been a "gamer", videogaming has simply never been an issue, in the same way that reading books has never been an issue, and watching TV has never been an issue, and so on.
To be perfectly frank, when somebody says to me, "Violent videogames cause violent behaviour", my initial thought is, "That's bullsh*t". And I mean it. Seriously. It's a mantra that belongs in a museum of simpleminded mantras along with "Rock and Roll will rot your brain" and the rest.
Human behaviour is far more complex than that, and sometimes digging a little deeper into that behaviour instead of looking for a scapegoat is a good idea.
My ten cents worth on the topic anyway.
Bob
Laureen
Heya
You've gotten some great responses. I'm not really addressing your cousin's
son, as I am exploring concepts for the rest of us, and meandering a bit.
You've gotten some great responses. I'm not really addressing your cousin's
son, as I am exploring concepts for the rest of us, and meandering a bit.
On Thu, Dec 8, 2011 at 11:18 PM, nalmeida12 <nalmeida12@...> wrote:
> I just got an email from my cousin's husband who thinks I should not allow
> my 10 year old to play violent video games.
OK, that right there? That's a really interesting control dynamic. And it's
really worth exploring.
As I write this, my husband is on the Gamecube, playing "Legend of Zelda:
Windwaker" with my three kids (9, 6, 3). They've been playing on and off
for days. They're having a great time. Link, the main character, vanquishes
foes left and right. It's violent, by some definitions. But it's me,
sitting here listening and adding in my $.02 from time to time, Aurora on
Jason's lap, learning how the controller works, Kestrel and Rowan actively
discussing game mechanics with Jason. You really couldn't find a better
bonding activity.
So that tells you my bias here. I'm solidly in the "pro gaming" camp.
> He and my cousin have a 15 year old (his son from a previous marriage)
> who has been arrested twice, has ran away and has been experimenting with
> drugs. Their relationship with this boy has been violent, full of anger and
> lack of communication- extremely sad to watch.
So for a kid like that, I might recommend *more* gaming, not less. Kid has
things he needs to work out in a completely neutral place, like inside a
game world.
> His mother had custody and then she threw him out 3 years ago.
Oh, yeah, and the video games are the cause of his anger? Really? Holy cow.
> This year, they decided to pull him from school to try online classes.
Based on his wants, or theirs?
> They are controlling every aspect of his life- including his gaming, which
> he used to be able to do as he pleased in the past. Now gaming is used as
> a reward for good behavior/ good grades etc.
::headdesk:: That'd make me pretty stabby and hostile.
> On the surface, he seems to be doing well. It's been a couple of months
> and now both of them think they found the holy grail of parenting. The
> husband has demonized gaming in his email to me. He is warning me
> everything that happened to his kid will happen to mine.
>
Well, if you've done everything else contextually to your kid that he's
done to his, that's a possibility, I suppose. But I'm pretty sure that's
some sloppy thinking on his part.
>
> I feel I have to respond because he's always been the alarmist in the
> family.
Honestly? I'd copy and paste Joyce's email and then back away slowly, using
the "bean dip" strategy for all further communication on the topic. When
someone's emotional wellbeing depends on them not looking past the
scapegoat they've chosen for the results of suboptimal parenting... they're
likely to be pretty resistant to logic.
> I don't want him to start talking about us negatively to the rest of the
> family. I don't need lots of concerned family members calling, dropping by
> or writing. Or worse. I just need a nice way to tell him it's none of his
> concern. I never butt into their lives.
>
Yeah. Joyce first, bean dip second. It's a solid strategy. =)
>
> Here is an excerpt from his email to me about his concerns:
>
> "you know me I can only be sincere towards you specially when it comes to
> Neo and God only knows my situation with Sebastian right now is less then
> ordinary to try to be a voice of reason but from hard experience, but If I
> don't tell you, will be doing you a disservice:
>
wow.
> while you may have Neos online gaming supervision tight, your flaw is the
> hardcore games that you are currently allowing him to play. Please don't
> take this the wrong way, but I don't think that you know the effect that
> these
> blood gorry games have on the personality of these kids.
Does he actually know what your son plays? Does he actually play with his
son? And for the record, "supervision" is absolutely not the same thing,
nor of the same value, as sitting down and playing with them.
> I can only tell you from my own experience with Sebastian and the total
> asshole selfish bastard that he has become
WOAH. Back the truck up. Way up. He can refer to his own kid that way? The
problem is not the games. Just in case you had any doubts.
> since he started playing these games. God if I had only listened to my Mom
> when she kept nagging me about not be gettings these games for Sebastian
> and let me tell you Nuria the games that were available for Sebastian back
> when he was Neos current age were way way less graphic that the games that
> Neo is playing now.
>
The. Problem. Is. Not. The. Games. I don't know if you know this person
enough to be able to speak sense to him. He's got a lot of reparative work
to do, mostly in his own head, I think.
> Nuria these games were design to desensitize kids, strip them of their
> humanity and turn them into little monsters totally addicted to adrenaline
> rush they get from killing.
Really? Does he have facts for that?
> Have you noticed any change in Neos Behaviour?: over sensitivity? -
> cursing?
> withdrawn to only wanting to play the games? - mood swings?
>
If my parent called me what this man called his kid, I'd be oversensitive,
withdrawn, moody, and profane too.
> I've had talks with 2 other parents whos kids play online with Sebastian
> and identified all of these symptoms on their kids not to mention the
> beginning of drug use mostly experimenting getting high with house products
> which apparently is a big thing
> with gamers being that they are too young to get their hands on street
> drugs and they get high with some house cleaning products prior to playing
> the games to prove themselves as being able to fight under any condition,
> this is how they are initiated into
> the elite clans and many of then end up dead on their kitchen floor.
I'm not even really sure where to start with this. "Many" of them end up
dead? Can we see some actual numbers on that? Too young to get street
drugs? Erm, that's unlikely. House cleaning products? Really?
This has got to be one of the very best run-on sentence/logical fallacy
mash-ups I've ever seen. He's clearly afraid for his child, but he's afraid
in a really mean way. I wonder what would happen if he could ditch his
control hangup, sit with his kid, and say "Down deep under all my garbage,
I just really love you and am really worried about you, and I want to know
how I can help" and MEAN IT.
Maybe for the holidays the family can pitch in and buy this guy an
intervention with Lawrence Cohen. It might help. I forget where I read it,
(possibly Polly Berends), but every kid needs someone who loves them wholly
and unconditionally. Absent that, there are problems. And if all he's
seeing is judgment and panic... of course he's acting out. It's not the
games.
Nuria it is very difficult to raise a teen in this age and age, and these
> games raise the hormones of these kids through the roof
Um, really? Through what mechanism? There are so many fear-based logical
fallacies in this man's thinking. Dismissing/minimizing his son's very
understandable upset as "hormones" is just one of them.
making a disaster out of a hot mess for a parent.
?? I'm not sure what that means.
> You have a beautiful family
> don't let this nightmare into your home. the first thing that went through
> my head when the shit hit the fan with Sebastian was: "Damn, I should have
> had a no violent game rule with Sebastian"
>
Cause that would have fixed it all?
I wonder what "success" looks like for him? Who would his son have to be,
to be OK in his eyes? More importantly, who would *he* have to be, to be OK
in his son's eyes?
--
~~L!
s/v Excellent Adventure
http://www.theexcellentadventure.com/
"The greatest expression of rebellion is *joy*."
— Joss Whedon
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
OH YES!!!!
-=-> He and my cousin have a 15 year old (his son from a previous marriage)
things he needs to work out in a completely neutral place, like inside a
game world.-=-
Good answer!!
He could use being in a safe home, but being apart to think through things, and work through emotions with practice people maybe. And to be in a safe home (not out getting in trouble) until some time has passed and he can mature and recover.
-=-> I feel I have to respond because he's always been the alarmist in the
the "bean dip" strategy for all further communication on the topic. When
someone's emotional wellbeing depends on them not looking past the
scapegoat they've chosen for the results of suboptimal parenting... they're
likely to be pretty resistant to logic.-=-
Maybe that, or a version of Joyce's e-mail, or invite him onto this list. :-)
Or send his original mail to all of your relatives, with a cover note asking them to tell him to back WAY off and not project his own child's problems onto yours.
-=-> I can only tell you from my own experience with Sebastian and the total
problem is not the games. Just in case you had any doubts.-=-
Yeah. :-) His son has *his* own genes (and the mother who didn't do a sterling job, maybe).
Your son has neither of their genes, not even indirectly. It could be genetic in addition to situational. Poor kid! But it's not your kid.
Laureen, your post was great.
I think outing the guy's power play might be another tactic, but ignoring it might be even better.
I'm guessing he tried to control his ex wife, didn't take his own mother's advice and not expresses dismay, is still trying to control his son, and now wants to venture out to control other relatives. Only he's not showing success in that method. (I could be wrong, but if he tries to control your cousin, that's evidence for my theory.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-> He and my cousin have a 15 year old (his son from a previous marriage)
> who has been arrested twice, has ran away and has been experimenting with-=-So for a kid like that, I might recommend *more* gaming, not less. Kid has
> drugs. Their relationship with this boy has been violent, full of anger and
> lack of communication- extremely sad to watch.
things he needs to work out in a completely neutral place, like inside a
game world.-=-
Good answer!!
He could use being in a safe home, but being apart to think through things, and work through emotions with practice people maybe. And to be in a safe home (not out getting in trouble) until some time has passed and he can mature and recover.
-=-> I feel I have to respond because he's always been the alarmist in the
> family.-=-Honestly? I'd copy and paste Joyce's email and then back away slowly, using
the "bean dip" strategy for all further communication on the topic. When
someone's emotional wellbeing depends on them not looking past the
scapegoat they've chosen for the results of suboptimal parenting... they're
likely to be pretty resistant to logic.-=-
Maybe that, or a version of Joyce's e-mail, or invite him onto this list. :-)
Or send his original mail to all of your relatives, with a cover note asking them to tell him to back WAY off and not project his own child's problems onto yours.
-=-> I can only tell you from my own experience with Sebastian and the total
> asshole selfish bastard that he has become-=-WOAH. Back the truck up. Way up. He can refer to his own kid that way? The
problem is not the games. Just in case you had any doubts.-=-
Yeah. :-) His son has *his* own genes (and the mother who didn't do a sterling job, maybe).
Your son has neither of their genes, not even indirectly. It could be genetic in addition to situational. Poor kid! But it's not your kid.
Laureen, your post was great.
I think outing the guy's power play might be another tactic, but ignoring it might be even better.
I'm guessing he tried to control his ex wife, didn't take his own mother's advice and not expresses dismay, is still trying to control his son, and now wants to venture out to control other relatives. Only he's not showing success in that method. (I could be wrong, but if he tries to control your cousin, that's evidence for my theory.)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nalmeida12
Thank you all for the responses. All spot on - and I know of no one in Sebastian's life that loves him unconditionally. There is no similarity between him and my son's situations except that they both deserve that kind of love.
Joyce, with your permission, I would like to use most of what you wrote here.
We are going to see them this weekend to exchange gifts and I want to send it before then so he won't have a reason to try to pull me aside. I feel like I'm short on patience because his perception is so off-base. I don't trust myself to keep a level head in person. He's not worth even this much.
Thanks again. Nuria
Joyce, with your permission, I would like to use most of what you wrote here.
We are going to see them this weekend to exchange gifts and I want to send it before then so he won't have a reason to try to pull me aside. I feel like I'm short on patience because his perception is so off-base. I don't trust myself to keep a level head in person. He's not worth even this much.
Thanks again. Nuria
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> I would begin setting the stage by agreeing with him and then take a different route. Such as:
>
> ========
> I totally get where you're coming from. There does seem to be a strong relationship between violence and violent video games.
>
> But what I'm observing with Neo is very different. He is drawn to these games *because* they don't hurt real people so he can play with the ideas of combat strategy and skills without harming anyone to do it. For him it's a safe way to explore these fascinating puzzles. For him the draw is finding better puzzles to solve not finding ways to cause real pain.
>
> There seems to be two types of people who are drawn to violent entertainment. One are people like Neo who have no desire to hurt real living things but are fascinated by the mathematical strategies of the hunt. They're people who appreciate separating the skills from the bad consequences they don't want to inflict on real living things.
>
> The other kids are hurting, angry, disconnected, often kids who adults connect to through their behavior rather than connect to through who the kids are.
>
> Maybe Sebastian has met up with a slew of bad teachers who have punished him for bad behavior rather than trying to see the need beneath the behavior, trying to help him meet the needs in safe and respectful ways. I don't know what happened, but I'm betting he feels the person inside him is unloved and so feels why should he care about anyone else. And these angry, hurt feelings are drawn to violence and self destruction.
>
> This is something we're very conscious of with Neo. We want him to see us as his partners, people who will help him find respectful ways to meet his *underlying* needs, rather than feeling his needs have to pass some test of approval. We don't want him to feel our answer is likely to be no since, if the need is great enough, he'll go to someone else who doesn't have his best interest at heart.
>
> Have you read Parent/Teen Breakthrough: The relationship approach by Mira Kirchenbaum? I've heard nothing but wonderful things about it being a guide for caring parents of troubled teens.
>
> I do intend to keep a close eye on Neo to see if the violent play carries over into wanting to harm others or himself, but so far there is absolutely no sign and he's a very happy kid.
> ========
>
> Or something along those lines.
>
> Joyce
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:52 AM, nalmeida12 wrote:
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Joyce, with your permission, I would like to use most of what you wrote here.Absolutely. :-) I hope he's open enough to letting some of it trickle in.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> Joyce, with your permission, I would like to use most of what you wrote here.
Absolutely. :-) I hope he's open enough to letting some of it trickle in.
------------------------------------------
Depending on the family dynamics, you might possibly want to copy a powerful other relative or two, if not now, when/if he starts causing any trouble. send them his, send them yours (or print them out if there's a powerful family member who will take your side and deposit them with that person).
If there's a chance Joyce's idea will cause him to back off, then I don't think you should copy others. But if he's aggressive and will be reactionary, maybe take a printout as a shield. A person's exact words can shush them if they're used to spinning a new version of what they said if they're called on it.
And although I was harsh in my guesses about his control issues, it's also possible that he really is trying in his own way to be helpful, and that should be acknowledged at least inside your soul, a little. And then, if he's insistent, take him down. ;-) Protect your boundaries if it comes to phase II, which it might not.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Absolutely. :-) I hope he's open enough to letting some of it trickle in.
------------------------------------------
Depending on the family dynamics, you might possibly want to copy a powerful other relative or two, if not now, when/if he starts causing any trouble. send them his, send them yours (or print them out if there's a powerful family member who will take your side and deposit them with that person).
If there's a chance Joyce's idea will cause him to back off, then I don't think you should copy others. But if he's aggressive and will be reactionary, maybe take a printout as a shield. A person's exact words can shush them if they're used to spinning a new version of what they said if they're called on it.
And although I was harsh in my guesses about his control issues, it's also possible that he really is trying in his own way to be helpful, and that should be acknowledged at least inside your soul, a little. And then, if he's insistent, take him down. ;-) Protect your boundaries if it comes to phase II, which it might not.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
nalmeida12
Update -
I sent him Joyce's words almost exactly to the letter. I thought for sure it would make him back up but of course it didn't. This was his response:
"Hi Nuria, I just love the way you convey your thoughts.
Nuria I Love you and i think the world of you and I still feel that the best thing that you did as far as shielding Neo from violence was: "Shielding Neo from Violence" . You were not panicking or over acting, you spotted aggression and approached it with rationality and motherly love.
As far as you were concerned fire was fought with water and not with fire, and if the baby cried cause he wanted to play with the matches you did not give it to him so he can start a fire.
No book or article or therapist is ever going to deal with any problems that you may had had with Neo's volatility best then you, his blood speaks to you. I think you knew this but you just didn't have anyone backing you up, and I think that's why you gave up on it.
I just wanted to give you a look into the consequences of "Adult Gaming" on the personality of kids from my perspective Nuria. Its like I was trying to explain to Sebastian today:
"15 to 20 hours a week of Pure Unrated Slaughter may not turn you into a killer Sebastian but ,it sure has had a twisted effect on the beautiful person that you used to be, and I've witnessed the change and I'm sorry"- He usually snaps back at me when he thinks I'm criticizing him, but this time he just looked at me with a thoughtful stair.
That "Gears of War" game of his is the last hardcore blood gore game we are getting in this house(I'm taking a page from your old book") I'm going to steer his sights towards sports and car racing games, perhaps him and I can do it together and he will be more interested.
Looking forward to seeing you and the family this weekend 2 Nuria, perhaps we can talk some more then."
To this I firmly replied and copied my cousin's mom who has a lot of influence on in and likes autonomy in all things:
"No, that's not necessary. I respect your opinion as I'm sure you do mine. We will agree to disagree. "
To which he replied (he obviously wants to have the last word with this backhanded compliment so I don't plan on replying or being challenged in person tomorrow)
"Nuria ultimately I just wanted to say thank u to you and Ricky for having indirectly shown me that there was a good way to effectively manage sebies gaming, and Im happy to report that just this morning I gave Sebastian the option of choosing over either playing his xbox or using his ipod and amazingly he chose the ipod : ) - we'll see how long that will last hehehe!"
Thanks again for the help.
Nuria
I sent him Joyce's words almost exactly to the letter. I thought for sure it would make him back up but of course it didn't. This was his response:
"Hi Nuria, I just love the way you convey your thoughts.
Nuria I Love you and i think the world of you and I still feel that the best thing that you did as far as shielding Neo from violence was: "Shielding Neo from Violence" . You were not panicking or over acting, you spotted aggression and approached it with rationality and motherly love.
As far as you were concerned fire was fought with water and not with fire, and if the baby cried cause he wanted to play with the matches you did not give it to him so he can start a fire.
No book or article or therapist is ever going to deal with any problems that you may had had with Neo's volatility best then you, his blood speaks to you. I think you knew this but you just didn't have anyone backing you up, and I think that's why you gave up on it.
I just wanted to give you a look into the consequences of "Adult Gaming" on the personality of kids from my perspective Nuria. Its like I was trying to explain to Sebastian today:
"15 to 20 hours a week of Pure Unrated Slaughter may not turn you into a killer Sebastian but ,it sure has had a twisted effect on the beautiful person that you used to be, and I've witnessed the change and I'm sorry"- He usually snaps back at me when he thinks I'm criticizing him, but this time he just looked at me with a thoughtful stair.
That "Gears of War" game of his is the last hardcore blood gore game we are getting in this house(I'm taking a page from your old book") I'm going to steer his sights towards sports and car racing games, perhaps him and I can do it together and he will be more interested.
Looking forward to seeing you and the family this weekend 2 Nuria, perhaps we can talk some more then."
To this I firmly replied and copied my cousin's mom who has a lot of influence on in and likes autonomy in all things:
"No, that's not necessary. I respect your opinion as I'm sure you do mine. We will agree to disagree. "
To which he replied (he obviously wants to have the last word with this backhanded compliment so I don't plan on replying or being challenged in person tomorrow)
"Nuria ultimately I just wanted to say thank u to you and Ricky for having indirectly shown me that there was a good way to effectively manage sebies gaming, and Im happy to report that just this morning I gave Sebastian the option of choosing over either playing his xbox or using his ipod and amazingly he chose the ipod : ) - we'll see how long that will last hehehe!"
Thanks again for the help.
Nuria
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:52 AM, nalmeida12 wrote:
>
> > Joyce, with your permission, I would like to use most of what you wrote here.
>
> Absolutely. :-) I hope he's open enough to letting some of it trickle in.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Dec 16, 2011, at 9:16 PM, nalmeida12 wrote:
Though I'm intrigued by thoughtful stairs. Mine are dirty or cluttered. I've never experienced them being thoughtful ;-)
I hope it really is the last word :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> He usually snaps back at me when he thinks I'm criticizing him, but this time he just looked at me with a thoughtful stair.It could be Sebastian is buying into the violent games being the cause of his anger and lashing out. I've read several people using their own need to escape into games as proof that games are addictive. (Rather than recognizing the stress that's causing them to want to retreat into something.)
Though I'm intrigued by thoughtful stairs. Mine are dirty or cluttered. I've never experienced them being thoughtful ;-)
> That "Gears of War" game of his is the last hardcore blood gore game we are getting in this house(I'm taking a page from your old book") I'm going to steer his sights towards sports and car racing games, perhaps him and I can do it together and he will be more interested.It would be way stronger to connect through what Sebastian loves, but maybe at least some connection will come of it.
> "Nuria ultimately I just wanted to say thank u to you and Ricky for having indirectly shown me that there was a good way to effectively manage sebies gaming, and Im happy to report that just this morning I gave Sebastian the option of choosing over either playing his xbox or using his ipod and amazingly he chose the ipod : ) - we'll see how long that will last hehehe!"He's living in a big wrong direction for connecting and influencing but maybe a tiny step towards seeing something better. Though he wasn't ready to see himself as an adult who ignores the child and pays attention to the behavior!
I hope it really is the last word :-)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]