Fighting kids again
Mary Hickman
Hello friends,
My 5 and 7 year old are at it again. The 7 year old is so cold to her
brother. I'm so sad to watch this. Example 1:
7 year old has a blast with court friends while brother is at baseball
practice. 7 year old now is planning to have club meetings when ever brother
is at practice, so "Riley isn't here". Other court friends really like
Riley. Sister, however is planning a life without including him. Not a
biggy, but bothersome, premeditated.
Example 2: 17 year old, 7 year old and 5 year old playing a game. 17 year
old it first, 7 year old it next, big fight because 5 year old asks to be
it, but 7 and 17 year old tell him he can't because you have to be able to
spell to be it. 5 year old rage fit through the house. I am having a 4-H
meeting going on. I ask 7 and 17 year old why he can not be it and they
continue to say you have to spell. Haven't I taught my daughter, 7, to
pretend and have fun. It does not matter what the rules are, a 5 year old
can and should be it next in a cooperative situation. I'm floored, feeling
like I handled myself poorly. I do not feel either my daughter or our friend
understood how cold they were by simply insisting a certain level of mastery
to be considered it.
Now my question, how can I politely show how cold the girls were without
tearing them down. I keep having these situations where 1 kid is really
hurting another and I feel totally unable to help them see the problem
without hurting them. I want to yell at my daughter for being so cruel. She
is cold almost all the time to her brother. I want to force her to sit in
her room and not play outside with her friends. I'm holding back, yet inside
it really hurts to watch her. She is absolutely wonderful with her baby
sister. So any ideas. I have read Siblings without Rivelry, any other
resources or wisdom.
These family dynamics are what shakes my confidence about homeschooling. How
can I keep two people together most of the day everyday who treat eachother
horribly? My 7 year old tends to need the most attention. She also likes to
be the one making plans. It is her way or else much of the time. I'm lossing
sleep about the attitude towards her brother. Yuck. Also I'm running low on
Ashley energy since she tends to put her brother down so much. She corrects
him constantly, even though I have repeatedly asked her to stop. She seems
to get enjoyment by putting him below her. I keep looking into the family
dynamics wondering am I modelling this? is Tim, my hubby? Why is she so cold
to him? I'm thinking of building a TeePee, maybe a big group project will
help us out of this harsh place.
Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
My 5 and 7 year old are at it again. The 7 year old is so cold to her
brother. I'm so sad to watch this. Example 1:
7 year old has a blast with court friends while brother is at baseball
practice. 7 year old now is planning to have club meetings when ever brother
is at practice, so "Riley isn't here". Other court friends really like
Riley. Sister, however is planning a life without including him. Not a
biggy, but bothersome, premeditated.
Example 2: 17 year old, 7 year old and 5 year old playing a game. 17 year
old it first, 7 year old it next, big fight because 5 year old asks to be
it, but 7 and 17 year old tell him he can't because you have to be able to
spell to be it. 5 year old rage fit through the house. I am having a 4-H
meeting going on. I ask 7 and 17 year old why he can not be it and they
continue to say you have to spell. Haven't I taught my daughter, 7, to
pretend and have fun. It does not matter what the rules are, a 5 year old
can and should be it next in a cooperative situation. I'm floored, feeling
like I handled myself poorly. I do not feel either my daughter or our friend
understood how cold they were by simply insisting a certain level of mastery
to be considered it.
Now my question, how can I politely show how cold the girls were without
tearing them down. I keep having these situations where 1 kid is really
hurting another and I feel totally unable to help them see the problem
without hurting them. I want to yell at my daughter for being so cruel. She
is cold almost all the time to her brother. I want to force her to sit in
her room and not play outside with her friends. I'm holding back, yet inside
it really hurts to watch her. She is absolutely wonderful with her baby
sister. So any ideas. I have read Siblings without Rivelry, any other
resources or wisdom.
These family dynamics are what shakes my confidence about homeschooling. How
can I keep two people together most of the day everyday who treat eachother
horribly? My 7 year old tends to need the most attention. She also likes to
be the one making plans. It is her way or else much of the time. I'm lossing
sleep about the attitude towards her brother. Yuck. Also I'm running low on
Ashley energy since she tends to put her brother down so much. She corrects
him constantly, even though I have repeatedly asked her to stop. She seems
to get enjoyment by putting him below her. I keep looking into the family
dynamics wondering am I modelling this? is Tim, my hubby? Why is she so cold
to him? I'm thinking of building a TeePee, maybe a big group project will
help us out of this harsh place.
Mary
_________________________________________________________________
Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com
[email protected]
In a message dated 4/26/02 6:24:41 AM, mfhick@... writes:
<< Now my question, how can I politely show how cold the girls were without
tearing them down. >>
Some mom-messages which have sunk in here (but we did start early):
You need to find a way to do something that can include everybody.
<<I want to yell at my daughter for being so cruel. She
is cold almost all the time to her brother. I want to force her to sit in
her room and not play outside with her friends.>>
The things you want to do are things she seems to have been doing. Is it
possible that you've yelled and forced before, and she's just passing it on?
<< She corrects
him constantly, even though I have repeatedly asked her to stop. >>
I would TELL mine to stop. I have sometimes had to tell one of my kids that
it is my job as a mom to see that ALL my kids are safe from meanness,
especially in their own home, from ANYONE, and that means them too. I've
said if we had company treating one of them that way that I would ask them to
leave. I can't ask my own kids to leave, but I can tell them that that
behavior is NOT allowed in my house toward any of my children by ANYone.
I've told them in a more humorous but just as effective fashion "If you want
to be mean to Kirby, you grow up, rent an apartment and invite him over. If
he comes over, you be mean to him there. He might not come back. He might
leave. But don't do it in MY house."
When Holly wants to hit Marty, we tell her "Wait until you're 18." The
running joke is that Marty is NOT coming to her 18th birthday party!
Sometimes when he does something that frustrates her he'll say, kinda to the
sky, "On November 2, when I'm 21, I think I'll be in Europe" or something.
It's humor, but there's a serious reality behind telling them "When it's
YOUR house you can decide to be mean IF they'll come and visit. But not
here, not now."
When Kirby and Marty were younger and Kirby would be mean and exclude Marty,
I would do something extra cool with or for Marty, which Kirby could not get
in on even if he wanted to. I would just plainly say, "Marty didn't get to
play with you guys, so I'm taking him to lunch," or whatever. Kirby
understood, and didn't really get mad, and Marty felt compensated. And there
were times when Kirby was nice. Sometimes because I bribed him to be nice,
but having BEEN nice and had it work out, it was easier for him the next
time. And Marty DID sometimes bug him on purpose (still does sometimes).
But as they get older, there are more and more times when Kirby's totally
willing to have Marty in on whatever the older guys are doing. It was
gradual, and not something I could force or enforce. But the message that I
didn't want any of my kids to be made unhappy in their own home was constant.
Sandra
It's not playing unless everybody's playing.
<< Now my question, how can I politely show how cold the girls were without
tearing them down. >>
Some mom-messages which have sunk in here (but we did start early):
You need to find a way to do something that can include everybody.
<<I want to yell at my daughter for being so cruel. She
is cold almost all the time to her brother. I want to force her to sit in
her room and not play outside with her friends.>>
The things you want to do are things she seems to have been doing. Is it
possible that you've yelled and forced before, and she's just passing it on?
<< She corrects
him constantly, even though I have repeatedly asked her to stop. >>
I would TELL mine to stop. I have sometimes had to tell one of my kids that
it is my job as a mom to see that ALL my kids are safe from meanness,
especially in their own home, from ANYONE, and that means them too. I've
said if we had company treating one of them that way that I would ask them to
leave. I can't ask my own kids to leave, but I can tell them that that
behavior is NOT allowed in my house toward any of my children by ANYone.
I've told them in a more humorous but just as effective fashion "If you want
to be mean to Kirby, you grow up, rent an apartment and invite him over. If
he comes over, you be mean to him there. He might not come back. He might
leave. But don't do it in MY house."
When Holly wants to hit Marty, we tell her "Wait until you're 18." The
running joke is that Marty is NOT coming to her 18th birthday party!
Sometimes when he does something that frustrates her he'll say, kinda to the
sky, "On November 2, when I'm 21, I think I'll be in Europe" or something.
It's humor, but there's a serious reality behind telling them "When it's
YOUR house you can decide to be mean IF they'll come and visit. But not
here, not now."
When Kirby and Marty were younger and Kirby would be mean and exclude Marty,
I would do something extra cool with or for Marty, which Kirby could not get
in on even if he wanted to. I would just plainly say, "Marty didn't get to
play with you guys, so I'm taking him to lunch," or whatever. Kirby
understood, and didn't really get mad, and Marty felt compensated. And there
were times when Kirby was nice. Sometimes because I bribed him to be nice,
but having BEEN nice and had it work out, it was easier for him the next
time. And Marty DID sometimes bug him on purpose (still does sometimes).
But as they get older, there are more and more times when Kirby's totally
willing to have Marty in on whatever the older guys are doing. It was
gradual, and not something I could force or enforce. But the message that I
didn't want any of my kids to be made unhappy in their own home was constant.
Sandra
It's not playing unless everybody's playing.
[email protected]
On Fri, 26 Apr 2002 05:21:56 -0700 "Mary Hickman" <mfhick@...>
writes:
the year that "following the rules" in games became important, that was
the year it was really hard for my daughter to handle a 5 year old
"goalie" picking up a ball while outside the goal box, and that was the
only year they actually made goal boxes. I'm assuming that, if one
followed the rules of the game, "it needed to spell, and 5 yr old
couldn't. You can say that rules don't matter, but maybe to her they
do... I think to a lot of 7 yr olds they do. Maybe that game isn't a good
one for playing in a group that includes 5 yr old.
I'm assuming 17 yr old was supposed to be supervising kids while you ran
the meeting? I would be much more concerned about 17 yr old's lack of
skills in dealing with the situation. There are a lot of other options -
playing a round of another game where 5 yr old could really be "it",
playing with the 5 and 17 yr olds on a team as "it", and probably more,
depending on the rules of the game... most 17 yr olds I know would be
able to think of some.
hard sometimes to have to slow down and include someone whose skills
aren't where yours are. It's hard when it feels one-sided, when you're
always adapting for him and he never has to slow down and wait for you. I
think often we expect a lot from older kids, and somehow the older one
always seems so much older and bigger and wiser, and then the younger kid
gets there and suddenly 7 seems so little...
I can see both kids' POVs. It's hard to get left out because you're
littler and can't do something yet, it's hard to have to adapt and change
what you really want to do because someone else can't keep up. I guess I
would try to keep *both* kids' needs in mind. It sounds like you have a
good handle on what your son is needing and not getting, but it's harder
for you to hear what your daughter is needing and not getting. Maybe it
would help to differentiate activities at the beginning - our homeschool
group had a "you can't say you can't play" rule, so Cacie was used to
adapting games there for all different levels of skill - it was
frustrating sometimes, but it worked out. OTOH, there were times that
were clearly big-kid times, like the group's Writer's Workshop, and kids
who weren't reading and writing had a brief time to share their dictated
pieces but were otherwise not included.... and that was okay.
I would think that playing together when you're trying to lead a meeting
would be an "everyone's included" time, and maybe making that clear from
the get-go would help. As far as clubs - some "clubs" Cacie did at 7 were
inclusive, and included little brothers (the weird things for sale one
was inclusive, ASAIK it was mostly about making signs to sell things like
"wee-wees"), but some didn't. The club where they talked breathily about
saving the environment and the lovely fields of wildflowers was private,
because I think they were exploring some deeper ideas and wanted to have
long, drawn-out conversations, and didn't want the little guys bouncing
around asking if they could all play Speed Racer now. Actually, chosing
to have a meeting while 5 yr old had another activity going on sounds
pretty thoughtful, rather than chosing to have meeting while he was
around but not including him...
I guess it sounds to me like your daughter is really trying to
individuate, to get some space of her own. Perhaps part of correcting him
and putting him down is a desire to make it clear that she is growing up,
that she is different than the way she was (and he is) at 5. Maybe some
special activities for her would help, things that only she can do, so
that she feels more secure about where she is... I think that would help
her to be able to see her brother as less of a threat, and then be kinder
to him. I liked baking cookies for my brother in my Easy Bake Oven when I
was 7 and he was 5... he couldn't bake them himself, that was something
only I was able to do, so I baked and fed him, and we were both happy. I
was also the only kid allowed to use my dad's record player, because I
had much better fine-motor skills... so if my mom was busy, I could offer
to play records for him, and we would dance... he was happy because I was
including him and it was fun, and I was happy because I had a more
"adult" role in the whole process. I guess it would have been a problem
if I had been mean about it ("I can touch the record player and you
can't") but I never was, somehow, and I imagine that if I had, my mom
would have decided to come and hang out with us for a while and put on
records for him, which wouldn't have given me what I wanted / needed.
That's really what it's about, I think. What is everyone needing that he
isn't getting?
Dar
writes:
> I ask 7 and 17 year old why he can not be it and theyI remember 7 as being a pretty literal year for a lot of kids. That was
> continue to say you have to spell. Haven't I taught my daughter, 7, to
> pretend and have fun. It does not matter what the rules are, a 5
> year old can and should be it next in a cooperative situation.
the year that "following the rules" in games became important, that was
the year it was really hard for my daughter to handle a 5 year old
"goalie" picking up a ball while outside the goal box, and that was the
only year they actually made goal boxes. I'm assuming that, if one
followed the rules of the game, "it needed to spell, and 5 yr old
couldn't. You can say that rules don't matter, but maybe to her they
do... I think to a lot of 7 yr olds they do. Maybe that game isn't a good
one for playing in a group that includes 5 yr old.
I'm assuming 17 yr old was supposed to be supervising kids while you ran
the meeting? I would be much more concerned about 17 yr old's lack of
skills in dealing with the situation. There are a lot of other options -
playing a round of another game where 5 yr old could really be "it",
playing with the 5 and 17 yr olds on a team as "it", and probably more,
depending on the rules of the game... most 17 yr olds I know would be
able to think of some.
>I'm floored,I always relate to the older kid more easily, because I am one... it's
> feeling
> like I handled myself poorly. I do not feel either my daughter or
> our friend
> understood how cold they were by simply insisting a certain level of
> mastery
> to be considered it.
hard sometimes to have to slow down and include someone whose skills
aren't where yours are. It's hard when it feels one-sided, when you're
always adapting for him and he never has to slow down and wait for you. I
think often we expect a lot from older kids, and somehow the older one
always seems so much older and bigger and wiser, and then the younger kid
gets there and suddenly 7 seems so little...
I can see both kids' POVs. It's hard to get left out because you're
littler and can't do something yet, it's hard to have to adapt and change
what you really want to do because someone else can't keep up. I guess I
would try to keep *both* kids' needs in mind. It sounds like you have a
good handle on what your son is needing and not getting, but it's harder
for you to hear what your daughter is needing and not getting. Maybe it
would help to differentiate activities at the beginning - our homeschool
group had a "you can't say you can't play" rule, so Cacie was used to
adapting games there for all different levels of skill - it was
frustrating sometimes, but it worked out. OTOH, there were times that
were clearly big-kid times, like the group's Writer's Workshop, and kids
who weren't reading and writing had a brief time to share their dictated
pieces but were otherwise not included.... and that was okay.
I would think that playing together when you're trying to lead a meeting
would be an "everyone's included" time, and maybe making that clear from
the get-go would help. As far as clubs - some "clubs" Cacie did at 7 were
inclusive, and included little brothers (the weird things for sale one
was inclusive, ASAIK it was mostly about making signs to sell things like
"wee-wees"), but some didn't. The club where they talked breathily about
saving the environment and the lovely fields of wildflowers was private,
because I think they were exploring some deeper ideas and wanted to have
long, drawn-out conversations, and didn't want the little guys bouncing
around asking if they could all play Speed Racer now. Actually, chosing
to have a meeting while 5 yr old had another activity going on sounds
pretty thoughtful, rather than chosing to have meeting while he was
around but not including him...
I guess it sounds to me like your daughter is really trying to
individuate, to get some space of her own. Perhaps part of correcting him
and putting him down is a desire to make it clear that she is growing up,
that she is different than the way she was (and he is) at 5. Maybe some
special activities for her would help, things that only she can do, so
that she feels more secure about where she is... I think that would help
her to be able to see her brother as less of a threat, and then be kinder
to him. I liked baking cookies for my brother in my Easy Bake Oven when I
was 7 and he was 5... he couldn't bake them himself, that was something
only I was able to do, so I baked and fed him, and we were both happy. I
was also the only kid allowed to use my dad's record player, because I
had much better fine-motor skills... so if my mom was busy, I could offer
to play records for him, and we would dance... he was happy because I was
including him and it was fun, and I was happy because I had a more
"adult" role in the whole process. I guess it would have been a problem
if I had been mean about it ("I can touch the record player and you
can't") but I never was, somehow, and I imagine that if I had, my mom
would have decided to come and hang out with us for a while and put on
records for him, which wouldn't have given me what I wanted / needed.
That's really what it's about, I think. What is everyone needing that he
isn't getting?
Dar
Sharon Rudd
> he'll say, kinda to theMy oldest, David, has November 2 for his birthday. His
> sky, "On November 2, when I'm 21, I think I'll be in
> Europe" or something.
>
Aunt Arlene, is also November 2. My DH's birthday is
November 1, his father's is November 1.
All Hallows and All Saints.
Sharon of the Swamp
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In a message dated 4/27/02 12:59:15 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:
<< I would TELL mine to stop. I have sometimes had to tell one of my kids
that
it is my job as a mom to see that ALL my kids are safe from meanness,
especially in their own home, from ANYONE, and that means them too. >>
I have said this also.....but not always in the tone I should.
My two older boys love to play legos and having a four yo sister with them
just isn't much fun. She definitely doesn't play the same way they
like....but she adores her older brothers and legos.
So I've asked them to give me a "heads up" when they want to be left alone so
I have time to adjust my activities to do something cool with her.
They still don't always let me know and often she is left out. It's very
frustrating.
But as we dialogue about how it would feel to be the only one left out and
how to adjust to accomodate everyone, it keeps getting better.
I really love your thoughts on taking the child that got left out, to do
something really neat away from the house Sandra.
This would really work well here I think, because the boys love getting out,
so they'd probably see very quick that it's beneficial to us all to include
her, and they're old enough for me to leave alone long enough to go do
something with her.
Thanks for some more useful thoughts on the sibling rivalry issues!!
Ren
[email protected] writes:
<< I would TELL mine to stop. I have sometimes had to tell one of my kids
that
it is my job as a mom to see that ALL my kids are safe from meanness,
especially in their own home, from ANYONE, and that means them too. >>
I have said this also.....but not always in the tone I should.
My two older boys love to play legos and having a four yo sister with them
just isn't much fun. She definitely doesn't play the same way they
like....but she adores her older brothers and legos.
So I've asked them to give me a "heads up" when they want to be left alone so
I have time to adjust my activities to do something cool with her.
They still don't always let me know and often she is left out. It's very
frustrating.
But as we dialogue about how it would feel to be the only one left out and
how to adjust to accomodate everyone, it keeps getting better.
I really love your thoughts on taking the child that got left out, to do
something really neat away from the house Sandra.
This would really work well here I think, because the boys love getting out,
so they'd probably see very quick that it's beneficial to us all to include
her, and they're old enough for me to leave alone long enough to go do
something with her.
Thanks for some more useful thoughts on the sibling rivalry issues!!
Ren