Re: What makes a school a school?
Claire Darbaud
Bonjour all,
I'm reading a lot about sudbury valley schools these days, partly because
the big part of my deschooling is dealing with my anxiety that MY kids will
actually learn what they need to thrive in life without any formal teaching
(I'll comment on the deschooling post about how hard deschooling really
is). And mostly because I really enjoy Greenberg's ideas and his writings.
Anyway...
In a recent post (that I can't find), Sandra commented on Sudbury,
something like "to the rest of the world, it's unschooling, to us it's a
school"
And I am wondering, is the name what makes the school a school? Is it the
attendance rules? If you build a learning place, sudbury style, and
children can attend at will and call it a community resource center for
homelearners, is it still a school? Like the Communidée center in Montreal,
is that a school in disguise? (http://communidee.ca/)
I just found out that the actual word "school" comes from the Greek word
"schola" which meant "leisure devoted to learning"? Did you guys know that?
The greeks started the school thing as something that was meant for adults
to have leisure time to devote to learning! Like a sabbatical.
The word school come from the grec word for "LEISURE"!!! I'm still having a
hard time believing this!
That sounds to me that a very good idea gone terribly wrong... How did
"leisure to learn" turn into molding kids on a factory like treadmill?
I mean, I totally feel kids have the right to leisure time for learning. I
feel it's actually important that their childhood is protected from
demanding that they become productive members of society and that they have
a time when their needs for food and shelter and love and care is taken
care of their parents. A period of "no need to worry, just take time to
explore and learn and grow"... I equally feel it's a good thing that people
of any age be allowed sabbaticals, time to reconnect to their own internal
drive and motivation and leisure time to learn stuff they are interested in.
Was school a good thing in it's origin?
I'm just throwing the ball to the court. I'd love to read what you think...
I don't mind the ball being tossed hard :-)
Claire
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I'm reading a lot about sudbury valley schools these days, partly because
the big part of my deschooling is dealing with my anxiety that MY kids will
actually learn what they need to thrive in life without any formal teaching
(I'll comment on the deschooling post about how hard deschooling really
is). And mostly because I really enjoy Greenberg's ideas and his writings.
Anyway...
In a recent post (that I can't find), Sandra commented on Sudbury,
something like "to the rest of the world, it's unschooling, to us it's a
school"
And I am wondering, is the name what makes the school a school? Is it the
attendance rules? If you build a learning place, sudbury style, and
children can attend at will and call it a community resource center for
homelearners, is it still a school? Like the Communidée center in Montreal,
is that a school in disguise? (http://communidee.ca/)
I just found out that the actual word "school" comes from the Greek word
"schola" which meant "leisure devoted to learning"? Did you guys know that?
The greeks started the school thing as something that was meant for adults
to have leisure time to devote to learning! Like a sabbatical.
The word school come from the grec word for "LEISURE"!!! I'm still having a
hard time believing this!
That sounds to me that a very good idea gone terribly wrong... How did
"leisure to learn" turn into molding kids on a factory like treadmill?
I mean, I totally feel kids have the right to leisure time for learning. I
feel it's actually important that their childhood is protected from
demanding that they become productive members of society and that they have
a time when their needs for food and shelter and love and care is taken
care of their parents. A period of "no need to worry, just take time to
explore and learn and grow"... I equally feel it's a good thing that people
of any age be allowed sabbaticals, time to reconnect to their own internal
drive and motivation and leisure time to learn stuff they are interested in.
Was school a good thing in it's origin?
I'm just throwing the ball to the court. I'd love to read what you think...
I don't mind the ball being tossed hard :-)
Claire
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
Claire Darbaud <cdarbaud@...> wrote:
Attendance requirements are a big thing. They get in the way of kids having choices. Choosing where to go in the school building isn't the same as being ablt to choose to stay home playing WoW, or hitch-hike to a music festival. It's like a "do you want the red sweater or blue sweater?" kind of choice - a Little bit of a choice, but one that can hide the fact you don't get to decide you don't want to wear a sweater at all.
---Meredith
>> And I am wondering, is the name what makes the school a school? Is it theIs a library a school? There's a garage down the road from my house where a bunch of guys meet every day to talk about local news and politics and learn from each other - is that a school? Is Discovery Channel a school?
> attendance rules? If you build a learning place, sudbury style, and
> children can attend at will and call it a community resource center for
> homelearners, is it still a school?
Attendance requirements are a big thing. They get in the way of kids having choices. Choosing where to go in the school building isn't the same as being ablt to choose to stay home playing WoW, or hitch-hike to a music festival. It's like a "do you want the red sweater or blue sweater?" kind of choice - a Little bit of a choice, but one that can hide the fact you don't get to decide you don't want to wear a sweater at all.
> Was school a good thing in it's origin?It can still be a good thing if people are choosing - really choosing, not red/blue sweater choosing - to be there. Adults can choose to go to take classes and attend schools. Many kids Can't choose - can't really Choose school because the choice has been made for them.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm reading a lot about sudbury valley schools these days, partly because
the big part of my deschooling is dealing with my anxiety that MY kids will
actually learn what they need to thrive in life without any formal teaching-=-
But if they won't learn at your house, why would they learn at a sudbury school, which also isn't formal teaching?
That wasn't your question, I know, but I couldn't resist pointing at it. :-)
-=-And I am wondering, is the name what makes the school a school? Is it the
attendance rules? If you build a learning place, sudbury style, and
children can attend at will and call it a community resource center for
homelearners, is it still a school? Like the Communidée center in Montreal,
is that a school in disguise? (http://communidee.ca/)-=-
If what someone wants to avoid is formal teaching and a curriculum, the answer for them might be different than for someone else who wants to avoid putting their children in the power of other adults, or who feels most strongly about their children having the freedom to choose. There are several angles to see it from.
School can't be what makes a school a school. Some people do school at home. Some schools are called academies, colleges and universities.
Attendance rules are loose in some situations in which the requirements for projects and testing are not loose. Pressure to perform what someone else has decided should be performed is what makes some piano teachers like some schools, while other piano teachers will help their students with learning songs of the learner's choice.
A community resource center, or community center, in my experience in Albuquerque, is not a school. It's a way to spend government money on pottery equipment, sports equipment, art supplies, gym equipment, and make it available to groups and individuals in a public place.
http://communidee.ca/ doesn't look like a school, does it? But some families might require their children to participate, which would make it seem that way for that family, perhaps.
But can't a family just participate as little as they want to, occasionally?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the big part of my deschooling is dealing with my anxiety that MY kids will
actually learn what they need to thrive in life without any formal teaching-=-
But if they won't learn at your house, why would they learn at a sudbury school, which also isn't formal teaching?
That wasn't your question, I know, but I couldn't resist pointing at it. :-)
-=-And I am wondering, is the name what makes the school a school? Is it the
attendance rules? If you build a learning place, sudbury style, and
children can attend at will and call it a community resource center for
homelearners, is it still a school? Like the Communidée center in Montreal,
is that a school in disguise? (http://communidee.ca/)-=-
If what someone wants to avoid is formal teaching and a curriculum, the answer for them might be different than for someone else who wants to avoid putting their children in the power of other adults, or who feels most strongly about their children having the freedom to choose. There are several angles to see it from.
School can't be what makes a school a school. Some people do school at home. Some schools are called academies, colleges and universities.
Attendance rules are loose in some situations in which the requirements for projects and testing are not loose. Pressure to perform what someone else has decided should be performed is what makes some piano teachers like some schools, while other piano teachers will help their students with learning songs of the learner's choice.
A community resource center, or community center, in my experience in Albuquerque, is not a school. It's a way to spend government money on pottery equipment, sports equipment, art supplies, gym equipment, and make it available to groups and individuals in a public place.
http://communidee.ca/ doesn't look like a school, does it? But some families might require their children to participate, which would make it seem that way for that family, perhaps.
But can't a family just participate as little as they want to, occasionally?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
-----In a recent post (that I can't find), Sandra commented on Sudbury,
something like "to the rest of the world, it's unschooling, to us it's a
school"--------
My mind has been churning this question lately too because we're involved with a "homeschool resource center" that was originally, a very unschooly-structured environment for kids to gather and play and peruse things they were interested in together.
However, in the past few years, the center has become much more focused academically. While attendance isn't "required," most of the choices for anyone over the age of 8 or 9 have become couched in the "red or blue sweater" kinds of options that Meredith mentioned. The goals are very definitely academic-based. There is, I believe, some kind of unspoken (to me, anyway) curriculum that matches same-age/grade material as it is being covered in local schools.
It is overwhelmingly clear that there is a new (for the center) belief that children will not learn what they need to learn without an adult directing the agenda.
Yes, everything is still creatively presented as a fun game, but the fact that the kids don't get to simply say, "I don't want to do that; I'd rather go play X" tells me that the trust unschoolers have regarding their children's learning is now greatly lacking from the center's philosophy.
--------And I am wondering, is the name what makes the school a school? Is it the
attendance rules? If you build a learning place, sudbury style, and
children can attend at will and call it a community resource center for
homelearners, is it still a school? Like the Communidée center in Montreal,
is that a school in disguise? (http://communidee.ca/)----------------
Here's my warning to other unschoolers: If you as the parent, and your children, are in charge of defining the philosophy and practices of the environment, I think a center like the one you mentioned can remain just that: a place for unschoolers to gather, play, learn, and share resources in a collaborative environment. If the center is run by others, especially by others who call themselves "educators" in the sense that being one take training, be careful of diverging philosophies.
In our case, I think that the majority of other parents changed what they want (and are willing to pay for). Due to the perceived difficulty of adhering to state home-ed requirements, parents have requested that their children's time at the center be used to fill portfolios. In my *opinion* fear, and perhaps a bit of laziness, have displaced unschooling principles--other families want the center to do their work for them.
------ How did "leisure to learn" turn into molding kids on a factory like treadmill?------
Gatto and others have written about the history/origins of American schooling, based on a Prussian military model, which you may find interesting (I've not done any research here myself):
http://4brevard.com/choice/Public_Education.htm
Brie
something like "to the rest of the world, it's unschooling, to us it's a
school"--------
My mind has been churning this question lately too because we're involved with a "homeschool resource center" that was originally, a very unschooly-structured environment for kids to gather and play and peruse things they were interested in together.
However, in the past few years, the center has become much more focused academically. While attendance isn't "required," most of the choices for anyone over the age of 8 or 9 have become couched in the "red or blue sweater" kinds of options that Meredith mentioned. The goals are very definitely academic-based. There is, I believe, some kind of unspoken (to me, anyway) curriculum that matches same-age/grade material as it is being covered in local schools.
It is overwhelmingly clear that there is a new (for the center) belief that children will not learn what they need to learn without an adult directing the agenda.
Yes, everything is still creatively presented as a fun game, but the fact that the kids don't get to simply say, "I don't want to do that; I'd rather go play X" tells me that the trust unschoolers have regarding their children's learning is now greatly lacking from the center's philosophy.
--------And I am wondering, is the name what makes the school a school? Is it the
attendance rules? If you build a learning place, sudbury style, and
children can attend at will and call it a community resource center for
homelearners, is it still a school? Like the Communidée center in Montreal,
is that a school in disguise? (http://communidee.ca/)----------------
Here's my warning to other unschoolers: If you as the parent, and your children, are in charge of defining the philosophy and practices of the environment, I think a center like the one you mentioned can remain just that: a place for unschoolers to gather, play, learn, and share resources in a collaborative environment. If the center is run by others, especially by others who call themselves "educators" in the sense that being one take training, be careful of diverging philosophies.
In our case, I think that the majority of other parents changed what they want (and are willing to pay for). Due to the perceived difficulty of adhering to state home-ed requirements, parents have requested that their children's time at the center be used to fill portfolios. In my *opinion* fear, and perhaps a bit of laziness, have displaced unschooling principles--other families want the center to do their work for them.
------ How did "leisure to learn" turn into molding kids on a factory like treadmill?------
Gatto and others have written about the history/origins of American schooling, based on a Prussian military model, which you may find interesting (I've not done any research here myself):
http://4brevard.com/choice/Public_Education.htm
Brie
Sandra Dodd
-=-Yes, everything is still creatively presented as a fun game, but the fact that the kids don't get to simply say, "I don't want to do that; I'd rather go play X" tells me that the trust unschoolers have regarding their children's learning is now greatly lacking from the center's philosophy.-=-
I think the trust that a child will learn in a rich environment doesn't translate well to groups organized in a single space. When kids are together, the other kids are often more interesting to them than anythings the organizer is trying to show them, or at least more interesting than any slow or boring moments.
-=-Here's my warning to other unschoolers: If you as the parent, and your children, are in charge of defining the philosophy and practices of the environment, I think a center like the one you mentioned can remain just that: a place for unschoolers to gather, play, learn, and share resources in a collaborative environment. If the center is run by others, especially by others who call themselves "educators" in the sense that being one take training, be careful of diverging philosophies.-=-
Even if they're all unschoolers, philosophies can easily diverge over snacks, or media, or level of rough play or toy guns.
-=-In our case, I think that the majority of other parents changed what they want (and are willing to pay for). Due to the perceived difficulty of adhering to state home-ed requirements, parents have requested that their children's time at the center be used to fill portfolios. In my *opinion* fear, and perhaps a bit of laziness, have displaced unschooling principles--other families want the center to do their work for them.-=-
It's hard to deschool in a schoolish environment.
It's easy not to deschool at all if one doesn't really have the desire and intention and need to do it.
Without deschooling, schoolishness seems right, normal and necessary.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think the trust that a child will learn in a rich environment doesn't translate well to groups organized in a single space. When kids are together, the other kids are often more interesting to them than anythings the organizer is trying to show them, or at least more interesting than any slow or boring moments.
-=-Here's my warning to other unschoolers: If you as the parent, and your children, are in charge of defining the philosophy and practices of the environment, I think a center like the one you mentioned can remain just that: a place for unschoolers to gather, play, learn, and share resources in a collaborative environment. If the center is run by others, especially by others who call themselves "educators" in the sense that being one take training, be careful of diverging philosophies.-=-
Even if they're all unschoolers, philosophies can easily diverge over snacks, or media, or level of rough play or toy guns.
-=-In our case, I think that the majority of other parents changed what they want (and are willing to pay for). Due to the perceived difficulty of adhering to state home-ed requirements, parents have requested that their children's time at the center be used to fill portfolios. In my *opinion* fear, and perhaps a bit of laziness, have displaced unschooling principles--other families want the center to do their work for them.-=-
It's hard to deschool in a schoolish environment.
It's easy not to deschool at all if one doesn't really have the desire and intention and need to do it.
Without deschooling, schoolishness seems right, normal and necessary.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]