sleep/bedtimes
[email protected]
My son Charlie is 7 years old and we have been an unschooling family since he left school in year 1 almost 2 years ago.
During the first year (deschooling) we lifted restrictions on tv and on sleep. I thought I'd done lots of reading about unschooling but on reflection we let go of too much to soon. Charlie watched loads of TV in the early days and would watch 'Chowder' episode after episode into and through out the night. Over time this changed and he started to go to bed when we did.
Charlie is an avid gamer and over the past six months started to play with others online. He has developed some close friendships (they play and skype regularly, sometimes daily and often for many hours ) and he really values this play. We live in the UK and there is a five hour time difference to manage.
He started staying up all night again, and his sleep pattern shifted. I was/I am concerned about him missing meals, being cold and hungry whilst we are asleep. Concerned that we aren't available to support technically and/or emotionally as needed. I was also concerned that staying up all night and sleeping during the day meant we weren't as connected with each other and I would/have missed that. We discussed the issues with him, and worked out a compromise. For a short time this involved us agreeing a bedtime, and us putting our alarm clock on so we could wake up and help him to bed. We soon realised this was a short term solution and didn't want to continue to have to wake during the night. Another issue is that Charlie finds it hard to keep his voice low whilst skyping and playing, he is so excited and happy that he forgets that others are sleeping, but we need to sleep and so do the neighbours. We don't want to keep getting up to help remind him. There have been a few times we have turned off the internet because of the noise and told him to go to bed. I started thinking after further reading on Sandra's website that our expectations were too high, it was too much for him to manage. Trouble is he has started to sneak downstairs to use his dad's computer or the laptop. This doesn't feel right and we don't want him to have to sneak around/potentially lie/scheme to get his need to play with valued friends met.
Yesterday Charlie came to me saying he wanted to play with his friend during the night. (I was amazed by his ability to plan and organise how to meet this need) we said that was fine. We woke up at 6am to fine him asleep on the sofa. I'm sure that there is some middle ground and that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Now I'm thinking the previous sentence is idealistic and that Charlie is very intense and passionate about his gaming, so not sure middle ground is achievable or indeed desirable at least not without lots of support. (which we don't have the energy to give at night).
This quote from Sandra's page really struck home
'My son just walked up to me and said "If you were one of those mothers who gave us bedtimes I would dress up in a superman suit and say I don't need sleep" Janet in MN 19 May 2007
Sorry if this post is all over the place, hoping that other views will help us see more clearly.
Kindly
Tori
During the first year (deschooling) we lifted restrictions on tv and on sleep. I thought I'd done lots of reading about unschooling but on reflection we let go of too much to soon. Charlie watched loads of TV in the early days and would watch 'Chowder' episode after episode into and through out the night. Over time this changed and he started to go to bed when we did.
Charlie is an avid gamer and over the past six months started to play with others online. He has developed some close friendships (they play and skype regularly, sometimes daily and often for many hours ) and he really values this play. We live in the UK and there is a five hour time difference to manage.
He started staying up all night again, and his sleep pattern shifted. I was/I am concerned about him missing meals, being cold and hungry whilst we are asleep. Concerned that we aren't available to support technically and/or emotionally as needed. I was also concerned that staying up all night and sleeping during the day meant we weren't as connected with each other and I would/have missed that. We discussed the issues with him, and worked out a compromise. For a short time this involved us agreeing a bedtime, and us putting our alarm clock on so we could wake up and help him to bed. We soon realised this was a short term solution and didn't want to continue to have to wake during the night. Another issue is that Charlie finds it hard to keep his voice low whilst skyping and playing, he is so excited and happy that he forgets that others are sleeping, but we need to sleep and so do the neighbours. We don't want to keep getting up to help remind him. There have been a few times we have turned off the internet because of the noise and told him to go to bed. I started thinking after further reading on Sandra's website that our expectations were too high, it was too much for him to manage. Trouble is he has started to sneak downstairs to use his dad's computer or the laptop. This doesn't feel right and we don't want him to have to sneak around/potentially lie/scheme to get his need to play with valued friends met.
Yesterday Charlie came to me saying he wanted to play with his friend during the night. (I was amazed by his ability to plan and organise how to meet this need) we said that was fine. We woke up at 6am to fine him asleep on the sofa. I'm sure that there is some middle ground and that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Now I'm thinking the previous sentence is idealistic and that Charlie is very intense and passionate about his gaming, so not sure middle ground is achievable or indeed desirable at least not without lots of support. (which we don't have the energy to give at night).
This quote from Sandra's page really struck home
'My son just walked up to me and said "If you were one of those mothers who gave us bedtimes I would dress up in a superman suit and say I don't need sleep" Janet in MN 19 May 2007
Sorry if this post is all over the place, hoping that other views will help us see more clearly.
Kindly
Tori
Sandra Dodd
-=-Another issue is that Charlie finds it hard to keep his voice low whilst skyping and playing, he is so excited and happy that he forgets that others are sleeping, but we need to sleep and so do the neighbours.-=-
Will he play without skype when others are sleeping? It's not okay for you to let him wake the neighbors up, and he should understand that.
One thing I told my kids and it was quite true was that complaints from neighbors about them being awake late at night could get us a visit from social services. They could ONLY be up late if nobody else knew about it. They needed to stay in the house and be quiet, or go to bed and go to sleep. There weren't other options.
-=-Trouble is he has started to sneak downstairs to use his dad's computer or the laptop. This doesn't feel right and we don't want him to have to sneak around/potentially lie/scheme to get his need to play with valued friends met.
-=-
Ask him to help you find a solution.
Friendships like those, gaming arrangements like those, can be fleeting. This all might only last another few months. My kids had some very close friends when they were young, and situations changed and they grew apart. I think it's worth helping him if you can, but within the bounds of what's legal, socially safe, morally acceptable and all that.
-=- We woke up at 6am to fine him asleep on the sofa. I'm sure that there is some middle ground and that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Now I'm thinking the previous sentence is idealistic and that Charlie is very intense and passionate about his gaming, so not sure middle ground is achievable or indeed desirable at least not without lots of support. (which we don't have the energy to give at night). -=-
What if you sleep on the couch while he's playing so he will see you asleep and remember to be quiet?
-=-He started staying up all night again, and his sleep pattern shifted. I was/I am concerned about him missing meals, being cold and hungry whilst we are asleep.-=-
Have food he can get to. Put blankets where he'll be sitting. But tell him to BE QUIET.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Will he play without skype when others are sleeping? It's not okay for you to let him wake the neighbors up, and he should understand that.
One thing I told my kids and it was quite true was that complaints from neighbors about them being awake late at night could get us a visit from social services. They could ONLY be up late if nobody else knew about it. They needed to stay in the house and be quiet, or go to bed and go to sleep. There weren't other options.
-=-Trouble is he has started to sneak downstairs to use his dad's computer or the laptop. This doesn't feel right and we don't want him to have to sneak around/potentially lie/scheme to get his need to play with valued friends met.
-=-
Ask him to help you find a solution.
Friendships like those, gaming arrangements like those, can be fleeting. This all might only last another few months. My kids had some very close friends when they were young, and situations changed and they grew apart. I think it's worth helping him if you can, but within the bounds of what's legal, socially safe, morally acceptable and all that.
-=- We woke up at 6am to fine him asleep on the sofa. I'm sure that there is some middle ground and that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. Now I'm thinking the previous sentence is idealistic and that Charlie is very intense and passionate about his gaming, so not sure middle ground is achievable or indeed desirable at least not without lots of support. (which we don't have the energy to give at night). -=-
What if you sleep on the couch while he's playing so he will see you asleep and remember to be quiet?
-=-He started staying up all night again, and his sleep pattern shifted. I was/I am concerned about him missing meals, being cold and hungry whilst we are asleep.-=-
Have food he can get to. Put blankets where he'll be sitting. But tell him to BE QUIET.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mitrisue
-=-Another issue is that Charlie finds it hard to keep his voice low whilst skyping and playing, he is so excited and happy that he forgets that others are sleeping, but we need to sleep and so do the neighbours.-=-
I wonder if he's already using a headset? This cuts down on our overall nighttime noise level.
<<Friendships like those, gaming arrangements like those, can be
fleeting. This all might only last another few months.>>
I second that. In our case it's nighttime YouTubing and playing games on his own, but it does change quickly. Just last week I was strategizing how to handle the two kids' diverging bedtimes (and my diminishing amount of sleep), taking naps in the evening to compensate.
Suddenly, Dmitri is insistent on going to bed at the exact moment I nurse his sister down for the night, asking in advance to make sure he gets ready for bed in time. I never would have predicted that.
When he is having an awake-at-night phase, I sleep on the futon in the room where he's playing. That way I'm the first to hear any excessive noise and can respond to it right away. We live with in-laws, and so far noise at night hasn't been a problem. I check with them regularly to make sure. I'll often wake up in the wee hours to find Dmitri asleep next to me, and then I'll transfer us to the bedroom. My husband takes a night on the weekend to give me a break.
Julie
I wonder if he's already using a headset? This cuts down on our overall nighttime noise level.
<<Friendships like those, gaming arrangements like those, can be
fleeting. This all might only last another few months.>>
I second that. In our case it's nighttime YouTubing and playing games on his own, but it does change quickly. Just last week I was strategizing how to handle the two kids' diverging bedtimes (and my diminishing amount of sleep), taking naps in the evening to compensate.
Suddenly, Dmitri is insistent on going to bed at the exact moment I nurse his sister down for the night, asking in advance to make sure he gets ready for bed in time. I never would have predicted that.
When he is having an awake-at-night phase, I sleep on the futon in the room where he's playing. That way I'm the first to hear any excessive noise and can respond to it right away. We live with in-laws, and so far noise at night hasn't been a problem. I check with them regularly to make sure. I'll often wake up in the wee hours to find Dmitri asleep next to me, and then I'll transfer us to the bedroom. My husband takes a night on the weekend to give me a break.
Julie
Meredith
"victoriaotero@..." <tori.otero@...> wrote:
With kids, most solutions are short term solutions. That's important to keep in mind - you don't need a "once and for all" plan.
Have you tried adjusting Your schedule so you're awake more when he is? You don't say if you have other kids - that could be an impediment - but if not, I'd work on being more on your son's schedule so you don't have the issue of him being up at night alone. Set your husband up someplace quiet to sleep - maybe get a white noise machine to filter out sound from the rest of the house, maybe re-arrange the home so dad sleeps far away from the computer. If you're up at night you'll still have some private time with your husband in the evenings and early mornings, And your son will have your company and support.
---Meredith
>For a short time this involved us agreeing a bedtime, and us putting our alarm clock on so we could wake up and help him to bed. We soon realised this was a short term solution and didn't want to continue to have to wake during the night.*****************
With kids, most solutions are short term solutions. That's important to keep in mind - you don't need a "once and for all" plan.
Have you tried adjusting Your schedule so you're awake more when he is? You don't say if you have other kids - that could be an impediment - but if not, I'd work on being more on your son's schedule so you don't have the issue of him being up at night alone. Set your husband up someplace quiet to sleep - maybe get a white noise machine to filter out sound from the rest of the house, maybe re-arrange the home so dad sleeps far away from the computer. If you're up at night you'll still have some private time with your husband in the evenings and early mornings, And your son will have your company and support.
>>We woke up at 6am to fine him asleep on the sofa.This confused me - do you see it as a bad thing? Ray slept on sofas on and off for years. Heck, I have a 55yo aunt who falls asleep on the sofa most nights and her husband puts her to bed when he gets up for work in the morning, or if she's too deeply asleep covers her up with an extra blanket. Throw something over him so he wakes up feeling loved.
---Meredith
Meredith
"Meredith" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
Woops, I missed the bit about neighbors, sorry. A white noise machine might still help all 'round, but being somewhere close by - awake, asleep or dozing - is important.
---Meredith
>Set your husband up someplace quiet to sleep - maybe get a white noise machine to filter out sound from the rest of the house, maybe re-arrange the home so dad sleeps far away from the computer.****************
Woops, I missed the bit about neighbors, sorry. A white noise machine might still help all 'round, but being somewhere close by - awake, asleep or dozing - is important.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
Good question, and I wondered that too.
----------
-------------
If you think sleep should happen at certain times in a certain place, then there is "wrong" sleep. But if you see sleep as a natural part of life, then the where and the when are quite secondary.
Same with food. It has a purpose, and the purpose should have little to nothing to do with the clock or the table. Sometimes there are ceremonial meals--Thanksgiving, maybe birthday dinners, welcome-home and going-away things sometimes. But if every mean is treated as important as a ceremonial meal, it can be irritating to a child (to everyone) because it's back to rules and away from principles.
There are historical realities about meal times, and there are conditions under which different people eating at different times wouldn't be feasible or sensible, but if where you (any family reading this) live there is extra food, refrigeration, sanitary storage, etc., then many historical realities are inapplicable and don't need to be "honored" with a sit-down meal three times a day.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
----------
>>We woke up at 6am to fine him asleep on the sofa.This confused me - do you see it as a bad thing? Ray slept on sofas on and off for years. Heck, I have a 55yo aunt who falls asleep on the sofa most nights and her husband puts her to bed when he gets up for work in the morning, or if she's too deeply asleep covers her up with an extra blanket. Throw something over him so he wakes up feeling loved.
-------------
If you think sleep should happen at certain times in a certain place, then there is "wrong" sleep. But if you see sleep as a natural part of life, then the where and the when are quite secondary.
Same with food. It has a purpose, and the purpose should have little to nothing to do with the clock or the table. Sometimes there are ceremonial meals--Thanksgiving, maybe birthday dinners, welcome-home and going-away things sometimes. But if every mean is treated as important as a ceremonial meal, it can be irritating to a child (to everyone) because it's back to rules and away from principles.
There are historical realities about meal times, and there are conditions under which different people eating at different times wouldn't be feasible or sensible, but if where you (any family reading this) live there is extra food, refrigeration, sanitary storage, etc., then many historical realities are inapplicable and don't need to be "honored" with a sit-down meal three times a day.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mitrisue
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
<<If you think sleep should happen at certain times in a certain place, then there is "wrong" sleep. But if you see sleep as a natural part of life, then the where and the when are quite secondary.
Same with food. It has a purpose, and the purpose should have little to nothing to do with the clock or the table. Sometimes there are ceremonial meals--Thanksgiving, maybe birthday dinners, welcome-home and going-away things sometimes. But if every mean is treated as important as a ceremonial meal, it can be irritating to a child (to everyone) because it's back to rules and away from principles.>>
I remember reading a novel set in an Iroquois village and loving how our eating patterns resembled theirs. Just checked again to make sure I remembered it right:
<<Food was continually being prepared and cooked. There were no set mealtimes. Family members helped themselves from the pot whenever they were hungry.>>
http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/IroquoisVillage/villagethree.html
I guess we can add that family members help themselves to a soft surface whenever they're sleepy.
Julie
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Earlier this fall my 9 year old son MD was sleeping late and getting up at 1-2 PM.
His dad was complaining to me that he did not get to see him and be with him much.
Then he started doing things with MD he used to do like taking him to play basketball at night after work and
MD and him were all happy again.
Then things changed again and MD has been sleeping sometimes 16 hours then staying awake up to 20 hours and
his schedule is completely crazy.
Many times he has tried really hard to go to sleep but he just cannot. His dad has been OK with it and MD even goes help him in the
morning doing chores, which dad loves and they connect. Dad has been sweet about it.
On Monday and Tuesday he slept during the day then was awake all night. Then he did not go to bed during the day on Wednesday because his friend came to play with him all day.
He went to be at 8PM Wednesday . Thursday he was up by 10 AM to go to Thanksgiving lunch.
He then went to bed at really late on Thursday. I don't know maybe at 2-3AM and early Friday his friend came again at 7AM to spend the day and he woke up. Then Friday he went to bed at 1230AM and slept until 530 PM yesterday!!!!!
He was awake all last night. I got up late today with his sister and his dad is napping in MD's chair ( after doing morning chores) and he is in his mushroom chair sleeping!
He did want to go to bed early last night but I told him that he had just slept over 16 hours and had only been awake for a few so that was going to be hard. I already gave tips on relaxing, reading a book, listening to an audio book ( that helps a lot sometimes)watching some TV in his bed, drinking some warm chamomile tea that he loves.
He maybe in some sort of transition. Maybe getting ready for a growth spur or hormones maybe kicking in or getting ready to. I do not know.
Food had been a challenge because he only likes very fresh made food. I am going to get some containers and lunchables and snack size packaged food for him. I am also going to get him some easy microwavable food he can make himself. I make sure I give him something good right before I go to bed. I am right next door to his room too.
I remember him staying awake all night when he was 5 to 6 and in love with playing Roblox. That changed. It changes all the time.
The funny thing is that I was like that too and still can stay awake all night! This fall I was uncomfortable with him waking up in the middle of the afternoon, maybe because his dad complained. Maybe it was just me needing to get over it. ( funny that I did not have a problem when he was younger!)
Oh and yes being quiet is a must. He has a head phone and used for all his gaming. I have no neighbors but his dad get up at 430Am and needs his sleep. It does not bother me as I have usually very light sleep and wake up many times at night anyways.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
His dad was complaining to me that he did not get to see him and be with him much.
Then he started doing things with MD he used to do like taking him to play basketball at night after work and
MD and him were all happy again.
Then things changed again and MD has been sleeping sometimes 16 hours then staying awake up to 20 hours and
his schedule is completely crazy.
Many times he has tried really hard to go to sleep but he just cannot. His dad has been OK with it and MD even goes help him in the
morning doing chores, which dad loves and they connect. Dad has been sweet about it.
On Monday and Tuesday he slept during the day then was awake all night. Then he did not go to bed during the day on Wednesday because his friend came to play with him all day.
He went to be at 8PM Wednesday . Thursday he was up by 10 AM to go to Thanksgiving lunch.
He then went to bed at really late on Thursday. I don't know maybe at 2-3AM and early Friday his friend came again at 7AM to spend the day and he woke up. Then Friday he went to bed at 1230AM and slept until 530 PM yesterday!!!!!
He was awake all last night. I got up late today with his sister and his dad is napping in MD's chair ( after doing morning chores) and he is in his mushroom chair sleeping!
He did want to go to bed early last night but I told him that he had just slept over 16 hours and had only been awake for a few so that was going to be hard. I already gave tips on relaxing, reading a book, listening to an audio book ( that helps a lot sometimes)watching some TV in his bed, drinking some warm chamomile tea that he loves.
He maybe in some sort of transition. Maybe getting ready for a growth spur or hormones maybe kicking in or getting ready to. I do not know.
Food had been a challenge because he only likes very fresh made food. I am going to get some containers and lunchables and snack size packaged food for him. I am also going to get him some easy microwavable food he can make himself. I make sure I give him something good right before I go to bed. I am right next door to his room too.
I remember him staying awake all night when he was 5 to 6 and in love with playing Roblox. That changed. It changes all the time.
The funny thing is that I was like that too and still can stay awake all night! This fall I was uncomfortable with him waking up in the middle of the afternoon, maybe because his dad complained. Maybe it was just me needing to get over it. ( funny that I did not have a problem when he was younger!)
Oh and yes being quiet is a must. He has a head phone and used for all his gaming. I have no neighbors but his dad get up at 430Am and needs his sleep. It does not bother me as I have usually very light sleep and wake up many times at night anyways.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Victoria Otero
> Ask him to help you find a solution.I have asked in the past, I think because we had rules before we still sometimes look to rules for answers and a (false) sense of security. Inevitably this doesn't work out very well and we are setting ourselves up. I will ask, I think he'll say something about him handling his own sleep/bedtimes.
> Friendships like those, gaming arrangements like those, can be fleeting. This all might only last another few months. My kids had some very close friends when they were young, and situations changed and they grew apart.This helps us keep perspective,
>I think it's worth helping him if you can, but within the bounds of what's legal, socially safe, morally acceptable and all that.I hope that is what I'm doing, think I'll feel a little more confident about it now.
> Have food he can get to. Put blankets where he'll be sitting. But tell him to BE QUIET.I think his struggle to 'be quiet', and our concerns about his health have meant we have moved between bedtimes/no bedtimes. When we have known he was staying up all night we have made sure there is food, he also has lots of blankets, fleeces, slipper socks and we are planning to get him some fingerless gloves too. It feels right to lift the restrictions without making an issue of it, make sure he's clear about staying quiet and address food and health as separate issues.
> I wonder if he's already using a headset? This cuts down on our overall nighttime noise level.Yes he uses a headset
>In our case it's nighttime YouTubing and playing games on his own, but it does change quickly. Just last week I was strategizing how to handle the two kids' diverging bedtimes (and my diminishing amount of sleep), taking naps in the evening to compensate.Suddenly, Dmitri is insistent on going to bed at the exact moment I nurse his sister down for the night, asking in advance to make sure he gets ready for bed in time. I never would have predicted that.
I think that Charlie changing, moving from one phase/specific learning stage to another so quickly is something I have only recently learnt about. The feeling of not being in control and being on the back foot so to speak has been challenging, however it made sense to me. I am starting to find it comforting to know that things change and that I can wait a little. I think the space is helping Charlie too, and my husband, who more naturally would wait a little.
>With kids, most solutions are short term solutions. That's important to keep in mind - you don't need a "once and for all" plan.I just learning this and that sentence articulates it really well. I think in the past I have confused consistency with rigidity. Or tried to be consistent by having rules. I also think my anxiety has lead me to search desperately for a fix that would last, if things weren't fixed quickly then something was 'wrong' with someone or something. I learning to relax a little more now. I'll hold onto this and watch my tendency to think negatively about short term solutions.
>Have you tried adjusting Your schedule so you're awake more when he is? You don't say if you have other kids - that could be an impediment - but if not, I'd work on being more on your son's schedule so you don't have the issue of him being up at night alone. Set your husband up someplace quiet to sleep - maybe get a white noise machine to filter out sound from the rest of the house, maybe re-arrange the home so dad sleeps far away from the computer. If you're up at night you'll still have some private time with your husband in the evenings and early mornings, And your son will have your company and support.Will really give this some thought, I think it's a great idea one I had read about either on the list or on Sandra's or Joyce's websites. I suppose I still hear voices telling me that meeting my sons needs in this way is wrong. I need to do something about this.
>>We woke up at 6am to fine him asleep on the sofa.No I don't consciously see it as a bad thing, not sure why I mentioned it really. He had a pillows and duvet, and I made sure he woke up feeling very loved, greeting him in a lovely way with the offer of food and drink.
> This confused me - do you see it as a bad thing? Ray slept on sofas on and off for years. Heck, I have a 55yo aunt who falls asleep on the sofa most nights and her husband puts her to bed when he gets up for work in the morning, or if she's too deeply asleep covers her up with an extra blanket. Throw something over him so he wakes up feeling loved.
> If you think sleep should happen at certain times in a certain place, then there is "wrong" sleep. But if you see sleep as a natural part of life, then the where and the when are quite secondary.We have definitely dropped rules around food, where, when and what is eaten�.this is working really well I'm pleased to say. No fights, no stress and Charlie has the space and support to develop a healthy relationship with food.
> Same with food. It has a purpose, and the purpose should have little to nothing to do with the clock or the table. Sometimes there are ceremonial meals--Thanksgiving, maybe birthday dinners, welcome-home and going-away things sometimes. But if every mean is treated as important as a ceremonial meal, it can be irritating to a child (to everyone) because it's back to rules and away from principles.
I really appreciate that people have taken the time to share, it has really helped to have that input.
Tori
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
This doesn't seem right to me:
-=-It feels right to lift the restrictions without making an issue of it, make sure he's clear about staying quiet and address food and health as separate issues. -=-
Case by case, each night, let him stay up or not depending on what's going on the next day, and whether he was quiet enough the night before. If his dad has one bad night of sleep, he shouldn't AT ALL have to put up with two in a row.
Lift restrictions" seems to make it nothing or all. :-)
Logical, non-arbitrary decisions made for real reasons is better than "lack of restrictions."
Sandra
-=-It feels right to lift the restrictions without making an issue of it, make sure he's clear about staying quiet and address food and health as separate issues. -=-
Case by case, each night, let him stay up or not depending on what's going on the next day, and whether he was quiet enough the night before. If his dad has one bad night of sleep, he shouldn't AT ALL have to put up with two in a row.
Lift restrictions" seems to make it nothing or all. :-)
Logical, non-arbitrary decisions made for real reasons is better than "lack of restrictions."
Sandra
Jo
Hi Tori, I have been following this thread, and wondered if your son might be encouraged to find some more online friends who are also in the UK, to help with the time difference a bit? Not to give up his other friends, just to spread his playing maybe so it doesn't always have to be cross-continent and therefore late night?
All the best,
Jo
All the best,
Jo
On 27 Nov 2011, at 19:29, Victoria Otero <tori.otero@...> wrote:
>> Ask him to help you find a solution.
>
> I have asked in the past, I think because we had rules before we still sometimes look to rules for answers and a (false) sense of security. Inevitably this doesn't work out very well and we are setting ourselves up. I will ask, I think he'll say something about him handling his own sleep/bedtimes.
>
>> Friendships like those, gaming arrangements like those, can be fleeting. This all might only last another few months. My kids had some very close friends when they were young, and situations changed and they grew apart.
>
> This helps us keep perspective,
>
>> I think it's worth helping him if you can, but within the bounds of what's legal, socially safe, morally acceptable and all that.
>
> I hope that is what I'm doing, think I'll feel a little more confident about it now.
>
>> Have food he can get to. Put blankets where he'll be sitting. But tell him to BE QUIET.
>
> I think his struggle to 'be quiet', and our concerns about his health have meant we have moved between bedtimes/no bedtimes. When we have known he was staying up all night we have made sure there is food, he also has lots of blankets, fleeces, slipper socks and we are planning to get him some fingerless gloves too. It feels right to lift the restrictions without making an issue of it, make sure he's clear about staying quiet and address food and health as separate issues.
>
>> I wonder if he's already using a headset? This cuts down on our overall nighttime noise level.
>
> Yes he uses a headset
>
>> In our case it's nighttime YouTubing and playing games on his own, but it does change quickly. Just last week I was strategizing how to handle the two kids' diverging bedtimes (and my diminishing amount of sleep), taking naps in the evening to compensate.
> Suddenly, Dmitri is insistent on going to bed at the exact moment I nurse his sister down for the night, asking in advance to make sure he gets ready for bed in time. I never would have predicted that.
>
> I think that Charlie changing, moving from one phase/specific learning stage to another so quickly is something I have only recently learnt about. The feeling of not being in control and being on the back foot so to speak has been challenging, however it made sense to me. I am starting to find it comforting to know that things change and that I can wait a little. I think the space is helping Charlie too, and my husband, who more naturally would wait a little.
>
>> With kids, most solutions are short term solutions. That's important to keep in mind - you don't need a "once and for all" plan.
>
> I just learning this and that sentence articulates it really well. I think in the past I have confused consistency with rigidity. Or tried to be consistent by having rules. I also think my anxiety has lead me to search desperately for a fix that would last, if things weren't fixed quickly then something was 'wrong' with someone or something. I learning to relax a little more now. I'll hold onto this and watch my tendency to think negatively about short term solutions.
>
>> Have you tried adjusting Your schedule so you're awake more when he is? You don't say if you have other kids - that could be an impediment - but if not, I'd work on being more on your son's schedule so you don't have the issue of him being up at night alone. Set your husband up someplace quiet to sleep - maybe get a white noise machine to filter out sound from the rest of the house, maybe re-arrange the home so dad sleeps far away from the computer. If you're up at night you'll still have some private time with your husband in the evenings and early mornings, And your son will have your company and support.
>
> Will really give this some thought, I think it's a great idea one I had read about either on the list or on Sandra's or Joyce's websites. I suppose I still hear voices telling me that meeting my sons needs in this way is wrong. I need to do something about this.
>
>>> We woke up at 6am to fine him asleep on the sofa.
>
>> This confused me - do you see it as a bad thing? Ray slept on sofas on and off for years. Heck, I have a 55yo aunt who falls asleep on the sofa most nights and her husband puts her to bed when he gets up for work in the morning, or if she's too deeply asleep covers her up with an extra blanket. Throw something over him so he wakes up feeling loved.
>
> No I don't consciously see it as a bad thing, not sure why I mentioned it really. He had a pillows and duvet, and I made sure he woke up feeling very loved, greeting him in a lovely way with the offer of food and drink.
>
>> If you think sleep should happen at certain times in a certain place, then there is "wrong" sleep. But if you see sleep as a natural part of life, then the where and the when are quite secondary.
>
>> Same with food. It has a purpose, and the purpose should have little to nothing to do with the clock or the table. Sometimes there are ceremonial meals--Thanksgiving, maybe birthday dinners, welcome-home and going-away things sometimes. But if every mean is treated as important as a ceremonial meal, it can be irritating to a child (to everyone) because it's back to rules and away from principles.
>
> We have definitely dropped rules around food, where, when and what is eaten….this is working really well I'm pleased to say. No fights, no stress and Charlie has the space and support to develop a healthy relationship with food.
>
> I really appreciate that people have taken the time to share, it has really helped to have that input.
>
> Tori
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
Victoria Otero
>This doesn't seem right to me:-=-It feels right to lift the restrictions without making an issue of it, make sure he's clear about staying quiet and address food and health as separate issues. -=-
Case by case, each night, let him stay up or not depending on what's going on the next day, and whether he was quiet enough the night before. If his dad has one bad night of sleep, he shouldn't AT ALL have to put up with two in a row.
Lift restrictions" seems to make it nothing or all. :-)
Logical, non-arbitrary decisions made for real reasons is better than "lack of restrictions."
I didn't articulate this very well, I can see why it's being highlighted. I meant that I wasn't going to return to the idea of arbitrary bedtimes late or otherwise. Which we were considering doing because it felt like we were having unrealistic expectations of Charlie and potentially setting him up. I didn't mean to suggest moving to the opposite extreme but can see how that came across by my using 'lifting restrictions'. We will be moving to a case by case, night by night basis. Would you therefore suggest that if he hasn't been quiet the night before he goes to bed when we say and then that we could try again the following night?
����������..
> Have you tried adjusting Your schedule so you're awake more when he is? You don't say if you have other kids - that could be an impediment - but if not, I'd work on being more on your son's schedule so you don't have the issue of him being up at night alone. Set your husband up someplace quiet to sleep - maybe get a white noise machine to filter out sound from the rest of the house, maybe re-arrange the home so dad sleeps far away from the computer. If you're up at night you'll still have some private time with your husband in the evenings and early mornings, And your son will have your company and support.[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I feel anxious about this�.that we will end up stuck, has anyone done this? We have adjusted our sleep times by a couple of hours�.
Tina Tarbutton
On Sun, Nov 27, 2011 at 5:36 AM, victoriaotero@... <
tori.otero@...> wrote:
of these ideas might help.
If we're having a hard time falling asleep because of the noise of him
playing with friends, we ask him to switch to videos for a little while.
This seems to calm him down, and also lets us get into a deeper sleep
before he starts back up on the headset. Oh, a headset only covering one
ear made a big difference, if it covered both ears he couldn't hear how
loud he was getting. If I wake up from the noise more than once I'll ask
him to switch to videos for the night once he's done with that part. This
rarely happens anymore.
I set food up in advance and keep quick easy to make stuff on hand for him
at all times. This sometimes means making extra large batches of homemade
chicken nuggets and extra large batches of pancakes to keep in the fridge,
and sometimes means (when money permits) buying convenience freezer foods
that he can reheat. When I make dinner I'll often make an extra plate all
set up to throw in the microwave. We keep lots of snacks around
from pretzels to beef jerky to baby carrots and he eats a variety. I'll
often make him a monkey platter before I go to bed so he has something to
munch on while playing.
We keep the gaming systems in the living room. We live in a duplex and his
bedroom is against the neighbors bedroom, the living room is a full room
away, this cuts down on noise transference. We also know the neighbors so
we check in with them regularly to make sure noise isn't an issue.
We made the living room comfortable for sleeping. Right now there's a
daybed in there, but we're getting a new sofa and one of the tests for the
sofa we ordered was how comfortable it was to lay down on. Draven knows we
do our best to stay quiet when he's sleeping during the day out there, but
sometimes I will wake him up accidentally and he's understanding about it,
just like we're understanding when he wakes us up at night.
We're making his room more inviting. He's switched to sleeping in the
living room nightly (daily) now so for Christmas he's getting a new bedroom
set and we're giving him the daybed that was previously in the living room.
We're also getting him a box so he can watch Netflix in his room. I don't
mind him sleeping in the living room, I just don't like it being an every
single night (day) thing.
We find other times to connect. Sometimes I stay up late with him,
sometimes my partner gets up earlier for work if he's still up, normally we
have the afternoon together.
His sleeping schedule is very fluid, it changes from day to day and week to
week. We warn him days in advance if anything needs to be done on a time
schedule and keep reminding him so he can adjust accordingly. When he was
younger this meant helping him settle down for sleep earlier and earlier
each day, now he likes to handle it himself and does a great job. Last
week I was shocked because he was going to bed and getting up before me,
then over the Thanksgiving break he switched back to being up most of the
night (probably because his friends were out of school and on Xbox later).
Last night he went to bed before me and this morning he woke up after me.
Hope something from this list helps.
Tina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tori.otero@...> wrote:
> **My son is now 11, but we've been doing these things for a few years so some
>
>
> My son Charlie is 7 years old and we have been an unschooling family since
> he left school in year 1 almost 2 years ago.
>
>
of these ideas might help.
If we're having a hard time falling asleep because of the noise of him
playing with friends, we ask him to switch to videos for a little while.
This seems to calm him down, and also lets us get into a deeper sleep
before he starts back up on the headset. Oh, a headset only covering one
ear made a big difference, if it covered both ears he couldn't hear how
loud he was getting. If I wake up from the noise more than once I'll ask
him to switch to videos for the night once he's done with that part. This
rarely happens anymore.
I set food up in advance and keep quick easy to make stuff on hand for him
at all times. This sometimes means making extra large batches of homemade
chicken nuggets and extra large batches of pancakes to keep in the fridge,
and sometimes means (when money permits) buying convenience freezer foods
that he can reheat. When I make dinner I'll often make an extra plate all
set up to throw in the microwave. We keep lots of snacks around
from pretzels to beef jerky to baby carrots and he eats a variety. I'll
often make him a monkey platter before I go to bed so he has something to
munch on while playing.
We keep the gaming systems in the living room. We live in a duplex and his
bedroom is against the neighbors bedroom, the living room is a full room
away, this cuts down on noise transference. We also know the neighbors so
we check in with them regularly to make sure noise isn't an issue.
We made the living room comfortable for sleeping. Right now there's a
daybed in there, but we're getting a new sofa and one of the tests for the
sofa we ordered was how comfortable it was to lay down on. Draven knows we
do our best to stay quiet when he's sleeping during the day out there, but
sometimes I will wake him up accidentally and he's understanding about it,
just like we're understanding when he wakes us up at night.
We're making his room more inviting. He's switched to sleeping in the
living room nightly (daily) now so for Christmas he's getting a new bedroom
set and we're giving him the daybed that was previously in the living room.
We're also getting him a box so he can watch Netflix in his room. I don't
mind him sleeping in the living room, I just don't like it being an every
single night (day) thing.
We find other times to connect. Sometimes I stay up late with him,
sometimes my partner gets up earlier for work if he's still up, normally we
have the afternoon together.
His sleeping schedule is very fluid, it changes from day to day and week to
week. We warn him days in advance if anything needs to be done on a time
schedule and keep reminding him so he can adjust accordingly. When he was
younger this meant helping him settle down for sleep earlier and earlier
each day, now he likes to handle it himself and does a great job. Last
week I was shocked because he was going to bed and getting up before me,
then over the Thanksgiving break he switched back to being up most of the
night (probably because his friends were out of school and on Xbox later).
Last night he went to bed before me and this morning he woke up after me.
Hope something from this list helps.
Tina
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-We will be moving to a case by case, night by night basis. Would you therefore suggest that if he hasn't been quiet the night before he goes to bed when we say and then that we could try again the following night? -=-
Maybe, but not as a punishment. So the parents can sleep. Sleep is important, biologically. Sleeping on a schedule isn't as important, but the sleep itself is, and if he's preventing other people's sleep, then he's not doing the right thing.
If you make a rule, you're no longer using principles in a case-by-case way.
In any situation, one thing is more important than other things. Sometimes that thing is playing a game, and sometimes that thing is being quiet and letting other people sleep.
Sandra
Maybe, but not as a punishment. So the parents can sleep. Sleep is important, biologically. Sleeping on a schedule isn't as important, but the sleep itself is, and if he's preventing other people's sleep, then he's not doing the right thing.
If you make a rule, you're no longer using principles in a case-by-case way.
In any situation, one thing is more important than other things. Sometimes that thing is playing a game, and sometimes that thing is being quiet and letting other people sleep.
Sandra
Victoria Otero
Thank you for you thoughts, we did help Charlie find some gaming friends in the UK to help with the time difference and so he didn't feel he was hanging around for his American friends all the time. He did make friends with some kids in the UK, but he seems to enjoy playing with the American kids he is friends with more. Maybe we could try again tho�.
It feel really supportive to hear from others whose children are night owls right now, and know what the issues are and feelings that can come up. I'll hold in mind what you said about transitions, growth spurts and hormones.
It was really helpful to hear you describe how you help and support your son and about how fluid his sleep schedule is. This has helped to reassure me that things can/will change, and reminds me to focus on the here and now and what I can do to help him and us. Thanks for the headset tip, I hadn't thought of that. I also like how you compromise by asking him to switch to video's I can see that working for us. I was chatting to Charlie today about falling asleep on the sofa, what he likes about it and it turns out that he wanted to watch videos on the Macbook which was downstairs and he fell asleep watching. If he has his smartphone he says he feels happy to watch the videos in bed. I have no issue with him sleeping on the sofa but we worry about the Macbook falling onto the floor. We looked into Netflix, sounds a good option for us to but it's not available yet in the UK. Thanks for all the tips.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It feel really supportive to hear from others whose children are night owls right now, and know what the issues are and feelings that can come up. I'll hold in mind what you said about transitions, growth spurts and hormones.
It was really helpful to hear you describe how you help and support your son and about how fluid his sleep schedule is. This has helped to reassure me that things can/will change, and reminds me to focus on the here and now and what I can do to help him and us. Thanks for the headset tip, I hadn't thought of that. I also like how you compromise by asking him to switch to video's I can see that working for us. I was chatting to Charlie today about falling asleep on the sofa, what he likes about it and it turns out that he wanted to watch videos on the Macbook which was downstairs and he fell asleep watching. If he has his smartphone he says he feels happy to watch the videos in bed. I have no issue with him sleeping on the sofa but we worry about the Macbook falling onto the floor. We looked into Netflix, sounds a good option for us to but it's not available yet in the UK. Thanks for all the tips.
>I guess we can add that family members help themselves to a soft surface whenever they're sleepy.Love this, it makes so much sense to me. It feels like we are starting to relax into unschooling, I'm also learning about who I can talk to about our lives, I sometimes feel sad that I can't share stuff with some family and friends but thats better than inviting negativity and it effecting our lives.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I have no issue with him sleeping on the sofa but we worry about the Macbook falling onto the floor. We looked into Netflix, sounds a good option for us to but it's not available yet in the UK. Thanks for all the tips.-=-
A chair next to the sofa, with the back helping keep the computer from falling? Pillow below it in case it falls? Both?
A chair next to the sofa, with the back helping keep the computer from falling? Pillow below it in case it falls? Both?
Schuyler
You could make a lap desk: http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-basic-lapdesk/
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 28 November 2011, 17:45
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] sleep/bedtimes
-=- I have no issue with him sleeping on the sofa but we worry about the Macbook falling onto the floor. We looked into Netflix, sounds a good option for us to but it's not available yet in the UK. Thanks for all the tips.-=-
A chair next to the sofa, with the back helping keep the computer from falling? Pillow below it in case it falls? Both?
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 28 November 2011, 17:45
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] sleep/bedtimes
-=- I have no issue with him sleeping on the sofa but we worry about the Macbook falling onto the floor. We looked into Netflix, sounds a good option for us to but it's not available yet in the UK. Thanks for all the tips.-=-
A chair next to the sofa, with the back helping keep the computer from falling? Pillow below it in case it falls? Both?
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cindy G
bed rail could be used just like in a bed
Cindy
To: [email protected]
From: s.waynforth@...
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 17:59:59 +0000
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] sleep/bedtimes
You could make a lap desk: http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-basic-lapdesk/
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 28 November 2011, 17:45
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] sleep/bedtimes
-=- I have no issue with him sleeping on the sofa but we worry about the Macbook falling onto the floor. We looked into Netflix, sounds a good option for us to but it's not available yet in the UK. Thanks for all the tips.-=-
A chair next to the sofa, with the back helping keep the computer from falling? Pillow below it in case it falls? Both?
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Cindy
To: [email protected]
From: s.waynforth@...
Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2011 17:59:59 +0000
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] sleep/bedtimes
You could make a lap desk: http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-basic-lapdesk/
________________________________
From: Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Monday, 28 November 2011, 17:45
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] sleep/bedtimes
-=- I have no issue with him sleeping on the sofa but we worry about the Macbook falling onto the floor. We looked into Netflix, sounds a good option for us to but it's not available yet in the UK. Thanks for all the tips.-=-
A chair next to the sofa, with the back helping keep the computer from falling? Pillow below it in case it falls? Both?
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mitrisue
--- In [email protected], Schuyler <s.waynforth@...> wrote:
http://www.tablemate2.com/table-mate_II_video3.html
It gets used many times a day, kids are eating lunch off it right now. One of the best uses is as a netbook desk while we're sitting on the futon.
Julie
>Along those lines, we got a kid-sized one of these from eBay:
> You could make a lap desk: http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-
> basic-lapdesk/
http://www.tablemate2.com/table-mate_II_video3.html
It gets used many times a day, kids are eating lunch off it right now. One of the best uses is as a netbook desk while we're sitting on the futon.
Julie
Sandra Dodd
-=-
bed rail could be used just like in a bed-=-
True, if the couch has that kind of cushions you could stick the base under.
OR... make a bed on the floor and it can't fall off the floor!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
bed rail could be used just like in a bed-=-
True, if the couch has that kind of cushions you could stick the base under.
OR... make a bed on the floor and it can't fall off the floor!
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Bernadette Lynn
On 28 November 2011 18:23, mitrisue <julesmiel@...> wrote:
watch what's on the computer while lying on the couch - it's also useful
when David plays Minecraft, since he uses his father's powerful laptop for
that, which tends to get very hot underneath and is very heavy.
Bernadette.
--
http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/U15459
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Along those lines, we got a kid-sized one of these from eBay:We have a cheap wooden stool from Ikea, it's not very high so people can
> http://www.tablemate2.com/table-mate_II_video3.html
>
> It gets used many times a day, kids are eating lunch off it right now.
> One of the best uses is as a netbook desk while we're sitting on the futon.
> ===============
>
>
watch what's on the computer while lying on the couch - it's also useful
when David plays Minecraft, since he uses his father's powerful laptop for
that, which tends to get very hot underneath and is very heavy.
Bernadette.
--
http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/U15459
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Victoria Otero
I really appreciate all the the creative solutions people have suggested.
We placed cushions around the sofa and that felt better. We also took down Charlie's high sleeper but left the rails on. Last night he was sat in his low bed nice and cosy, watching you tube videos and playing his favourite game, with a monkey platter in reach. We are planning to order a table mate, it is cheap and does the job. We've been clear about keeping quiet and he wanted to know exactly how quiet he needed to be so as not to disturb other people.
I am learning so much from this list, I am finding that my ability to solve problems and meet needs is developing. Thanks to all.
With all good wishes
Tori
We placed cushions around the sofa and that felt better. We also took down Charlie's high sleeper but left the rails on. Last night he was sat in his low bed nice and cosy, watching you tube videos and playing his favourite game, with a monkey platter in reach. We are planning to order a table mate, it is cheap and does the job. We've been clear about keeping quiet and he wanted to know exactly how quiet he needed to be so as not to disturb other people.
I am learning so much from this list, I am finding that my ability to solve problems and meet needs is developing. Thanks to all.
With all good wishes
Tori
On 29 Nov 2011, at 00:47, Bernadette Lynn wrote:
> On 28 November 2011 18:23, mitrisue <julesmiel@...> wrote:
>
> > Along those lines, we got a kid-sized one of these from eBay:
> > http://www.tablemate2.com/table-mate_II_video3.html
> >
> > It gets used many times a day, kids are eating lunch off it right now.
> > One of the best uses is as a netbook desk while we're sitting on the futon.
> > ===============
> >
> >
>
> We have a cheap wooden stool from Ikea, it's not very high so people can
> watch what's on the computer while lying on the couch - it's also useful
> when David plays Minecraft, since he uses his father's powerful laptop for
> that, which tends to get very hot underneath and is very heavy.
>
> Bernadette.
> --
>
> http://h2g2.com/dna/h2g2/U15459
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]