Other people affecting your children
madh4ofwaipu
Don't get me wrong I don't want my kids to be brought up in a box but when they are so young and getting wrong impressions from others makes me wonder if it will all come out in the wash as they get older.
Example. My children hear a mother counting to three to get her child to come to her. My child then using the same tactic on her younger sibling. I did talk quietly to her about how her brother would feel.
Also seeing their friends thrown onto time out. How do you talk to your child when your friends are right there doing the throwing of their friends. I was shocked but most of the people/families around us use this practice. Is it too late to talk about it later when the visitor had gone?
Example. Food limiting and all aspects of food eating including shaming of my children for bad etiquette.
Its My mother...I have talked to her about this issue and others over steeping her boundary. She feels if I'm not going to then she has to. I feel very stuck on this issue as ideally I would not like to see my mother at all (issues!) but she is already a part of my children's lives. She works heavily with guilt shame and fear oh and manipulation and control. Gives a gift then my children can only use them in a situation she deams acceptable.
Thank you
Megan
Example. My children hear a mother counting to three to get her child to come to her. My child then using the same tactic on her younger sibling. I did talk quietly to her about how her brother would feel.
Also seeing their friends thrown onto time out. How do you talk to your child when your friends are right there doing the throwing of their friends. I was shocked but most of the people/families around us use this practice. Is it too late to talk about it later when the visitor had gone?
Example. Food limiting and all aspects of food eating including shaming of my children for bad etiquette.
Its My mother...I have talked to her about this issue and others over steeping her boundary. She feels if I'm not going to then she has to. I feel very stuck on this issue as ideally I would not like to see my mother at all (issues!) but she is already a part of my children's lives. She works heavily with guilt shame and fear oh and manipulation and control. Gives a gift then my children can only use them in a situation she deams acceptable.
Thank you
Megan
mitrisue
--- In [email protected], "madh4ofwaipu" <megan2@...> wrote:
Dmitri did talk about it later, but he wasn't upset. It was more like, "Tom got put in the corner!" Wonder. Fascination. And from there we exchanged a couple of sentences on people doing things differently. He wasn't interested in calling it wrong. He talked about Tom being "naughty" in a kind of awestruck way, and I talked about some of the things Tom was doing that his mom was worried about. We talked about how we're both like Tom (i.e., "naughty") sometimes.
<<Example. Food limiting and all aspects of food eating including shaming of my children for bad etiquette.
Its My mother...I have talked to her about this issue and others over steeping her boundary.>>
So far, we've treated visits to others like entering a different culture. We do our best to respect the culture when we're elsewhere, but there are instances when we do exercise our freedom. When we eat dinner with our friends, they want their children to clear their plates before dessert. Their daughter instructed Dmitri to clear his, and this caused real upset. While I reassured Dmitri that he could do what felt good, the other mom reminded her daughter that we can decide what to do.
For a week or two, Dmitri internalized this rule, not consistently, but it kept coming up. He'd talk about waiting until later to eat certain foods. He'd decide what was dessert and what was dinner. He'd express pride when he finished all of something. He instructed his little sister about how to eat, and she blissfully ignored him.
I supported his experiments and talked about food when he wanted to. One of those times was when he wanted me to do what he was doing. I just explained what felt best to me and why.
It wore off, but I think the experiment was functional for him because it led to conversations that helped him work through the upsetting part of it for him. He also got to explore the satisfying part of his friend conveying This is What We Do and It Is Definitely the Right Thing. He wanted to proclaim The Right Thing for a while, and then he was done. He realized he had his own Right Thing, and that was trusting himself. At the same time, he realized the other family had their own Right Thing that was parent-directed. A co-existence of things called Right.
I wonder what in particular your mother is doing around food? Some things we're able to go along with pretty well at other people's houses (like trying to stay at the table while other people are still eating), while others call for our carving out a space for the kids. Usually, "It's okay. He can do what feels good to him" suffices.
Julie
> but when they are so young and getting wrong impressions from others > makes me wonder if it will all come out in the wash as they getAnother view of "wrong impressions" is that everyone has a different perspective, and we can see people all around us demonstrating their perspectives through their actions. We have friends who interact differently with their kids than we do, but my experience is that my kids focus on what they do like and don't spend much time on what they don't like. There's even a positive kind of fascination they have with observing others and then talking about it/experimenting with it later.
> older.
> Example. My children hear a mother counting to three to get herDid her sibling come to her? Was there any distress expressed? My kids sometimes experiment briefly with what they see/hear, but it doesn't really stick. If everyone is feeling fine, I don't intervene.
> child to come to her. My child then using the same tactic on her
> younger sibling.
> Also seeing their friends thrown onto time out. How do you talk toWere there questions about it or were your kids obviously distressed when it was happening? If so, I would take them aside and handle that, but sometimes things we label terrible are fascinating for kids. Dmitri (6) was fascinated to see his friend Tom put in the corner. He didn't feel bad about it, and Tom didn't seem to, either.
> your child when your friends are right there doing the throwing of
> their friends.
Dmitri did talk about it later, but he wasn't upset. It was more like, "Tom got put in the corner!" Wonder. Fascination. And from there we exchanged a couple of sentences on people doing things differently. He wasn't interested in calling it wrong. He talked about Tom being "naughty" in a kind of awestruck way, and I talked about some of the things Tom was doing that his mom was worried about. We talked about how we're both like Tom (i.e., "naughty") sometimes.
<<Example. Food limiting and all aspects of food eating including shaming of my children for bad etiquette.
Its My mother...I have talked to her about this issue and others over steeping her boundary.>>
So far, we've treated visits to others like entering a different culture. We do our best to respect the culture when we're elsewhere, but there are instances when we do exercise our freedom. When we eat dinner with our friends, they want their children to clear their plates before dessert. Their daughter instructed Dmitri to clear his, and this caused real upset. While I reassured Dmitri that he could do what felt good, the other mom reminded her daughter that we can decide what to do.
For a week or two, Dmitri internalized this rule, not consistently, but it kept coming up. He'd talk about waiting until later to eat certain foods. He'd decide what was dessert and what was dinner. He'd express pride when he finished all of something. He instructed his little sister about how to eat, and she blissfully ignored him.
I supported his experiments and talked about food when he wanted to. One of those times was when he wanted me to do what he was doing. I just explained what felt best to me and why.
It wore off, but I think the experiment was functional for him because it led to conversations that helped him work through the upsetting part of it for him. He also got to explore the satisfying part of his friend conveying This is What We Do and It Is Definitely the Right Thing. He wanted to proclaim The Right Thing for a while, and then he was done. He realized he had his own Right Thing, and that was trusting himself. At the same time, he realized the other family had their own Right Thing that was parent-directed. A co-existence of things called Right.
I wonder what in particular your mother is doing around food? Some things we're able to go along with pretty well at other people's houses (like trying to stay at the table while other people are still eating), while others call for our carving out a space for the kids. Usually, "It's okay. He can do what feels good to him" suffices.
Julie
Jen
> Also seeing their friends thrown onto time out. How do you talk to your child when your friends are right there doing the throwing of their friends. I was shocked but most of the people/families around us use this practice. Is it too late to talk about it later when the visitor had gone?We had this happen one time at our house, we had another mom and 3 kids visiting, and the mom put her oldest child in "time out" on our steps. My daughter, Pearl, was fairly outraged by this and she said to the other mom, "Then I'm going to sit with her!" and she sat down on the steps with the little girl until the time out was over. Pearl was maybe 6 or 7 at the time.
I was surprised that she did that, and proud as well. And it got me to thinking that I can decide what happens in my house. I would have said "Don't do that here!" if someone would have hit their child in my home. I decided that if someone ever put their child in time out in my house again, I'd say, "We don't do that in my house. If you feel you need to punish your child, you'll have to do it in your house."
But it took my daughter being brave for me to make that decision.
Jennie
Sandra Dodd
-=-Don't get me wrong I don't want my kids to be brought up in a box but when they are so young and getting wrong impressions from others makes me wonder if it will all come out in the wash as they get older.-=-
How do you know they're getting "wrong impressions"?
When children learn naturally sometimes they learn "I like this and want to be this way," and sometimes they learn "Some people aren't as thoughtful as they should be; I'm going to be more thoughtful."
-=- . Food limiting and all aspects of food eating including shaming of my children for bad etiquette.... She feels if I'm not going to then she has to. -=-
If your children's etiquette is bad, deal with that kindly and sweetly, but deal with it. Unschooling shouldn't be an excuse to encourage or condone bad etiquette. Children SHOULD be learning how to hold utensils, sit politely, chew with their mouths closed and all that. They can learn that without rules and shame and punishment, but to refuse to even mention it or encourage them to have better manners is a mistake.
-=- She works heavily with guilt shame and fear oh and manipulation and control. -=-
Figure out better ways, then model them for her, and when you see them working well, point that out to her.
If they are NOT working well, or you haven't figured out a better way, then she has a point, honestly.
Sandra
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How do you know they're getting "wrong impressions"?
When children learn naturally sometimes they learn "I like this and want to be this way," and sometimes they learn "Some people aren't as thoughtful as they should be; I'm going to be more thoughtful."
-=- . Food limiting and all aspects of food eating including shaming of my children for bad etiquette.... She feels if I'm not going to then she has to. -=-
If your children's etiquette is bad, deal with that kindly and sweetly, but deal with it. Unschooling shouldn't be an excuse to encourage or condone bad etiquette. Children SHOULD be learning how to hold utensils, sit politely, chew with their mouths closed and all that. They can learn that without rules and shame and punishment, but to refuse to even mention it or encourage them to have better manners is a mistake.
-=- She works heavily with guilt shame and fear oh and manipulation and control. -=-
Figure out better ways, then model them for her, and when you see them working well, point that out to her.
If they are NOT working well, or you haven't figured out a better way, then she has a point, honestly.
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
-=- Some things we're able to go along with pretty well at other people's houses (like trying to stay at the table while other people are still eating), while others call for our carving out a space for the kids. Usually, "It's okay. He can do what feels good to him" suffices. -=-
Sometimes that suffices and sometimes it's not okay.
I've never tried to make anybody eat anything at my house, but if another family was over and I said something like "The deck is too dangerous for toddlers, let's lock this door," and if the mom said "It's okay. He can do what feels good to him," I wouldn't accept that as a reasonable response.
Sometimes it's wonderful, but many new unschoolers are (wrongly, awkwardly) moving from one set of rules to a gathering up of "new rules," and might read what you wrote and memorize it by rote to use in all situations in the future. :-)
Anyone who's new to unschooling: Don't replace old conservative, arbitrary-seeming rules with Absolutely NOTHING. Find the part of each question or situation that involves the principles you think are important for you to live by and for your children to see enacted or considered.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
Sandra
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Sometimes that suffices and sometimes it's not okay.
I've never tried to make anybody eat anything at my house, but if another family was over and I said something like "The deck is too dangerous for toddlers, let's lock this door," and if the mom said "It's okay. He can do what feels good to him," I wouldn't accept that as a reasonable response.
Sometimes it's wonderful, but many new unschoolers are (wrongly, awkwardly) moving from one set of rules to a gathering up of "new rules," and might read what you wrote and memorize it by rote to use in all situations in the future. :-)
Anyone who's new to unschooling: Don't replace old conservative, arbitrary-seeming rules with Absolutely NOTHING. Find the part of each question or situation that involves the principles you think are important for you to live by and for your children to see enacted or considered.
http://sandradodd.com/rules
Sandra
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Jenny Cyphers
***Example. My children hear a mother counting to three to get her child to come to her. ***
This is specific, so I'll give a specific on exactly this! I don't like counting kids out, it's always bothered me. I'm not sure how it started or who started it, me or my hubby, but one time one of us said as an auto response to someone counting down, "One, Two,...", "Buckle my shoe". It stuck. Every time we hear this, it's almost automatic to respond with "Buckle my shoe". My kids have picked up on it and now they do it to.
A friend of ours heard us say that and her kids repeated it. A friend of that friend became rather exasperated over it when it spilled over into her world and her kids didn't take her seriously any more because they started saying "Buckle my shoe" when she started counting them out. Sometimes I wonder how many kids have started doing that simply because they heard one of us. I hope more parents continued the rhyme rather than become angry.
***Example. Food limiting and all aspects of food eating including shaming of my children for bad etiquette. ***
With food limiting, I've always ignored what other parents do to their own kids, in group contexts. I help my own kids get the food they want and need and let it go. That is really all about context. If there is an open buffet table, then I assume it is open to everyone. If we are supposed to eat sitting down, then we do so. Group eating, while sitting, does require some amount of etiquette. It doesn't need to be a big deal to help a kid do the right thing. Being loud and messy in a public place isn't really the most wonderful thing. Being greedy at a buffet table isn't a wonderful thing either.
We've been to unschooling meet ups where there was a buffet arrangement where parents were controlling food. That was hard and weird. It didn't seem to have a great impact on my kids, except that they felt a bit bad about their friends not being able to drink the hot cocoa before or with their "real" food.
***Its My mother...I have talked to her about this issue and others over steeping her boundary. She feels if I'm not going to then she has to. ***
Your mother can make her own decisions on how she wants her relationship to be with her grandkids. If it is her party, her house, her outing, then she can control that to her liking. Your kids will either go along with it, or they won't. They may decide one day that it isn't worth the frustration. For now, I'd help them find what is positive about that relationship.
***Also seeing their friends thrown onto time out. How do you talk to your child when your friends are right there doing the throwing of their friends. I was shocked but most of the people/families around us use this practice. Is it too late to talk about it later when the visitor had gone?***
If this happened in your home, you could possibly have a say in it. If a parent did that in my home, I'd stop it. Our time is valuable, even play date time, or especially play date time. I absolutely don't want that time spent with my own kids sad and frustrated at not being able to play with a friend that is being punished while in their home, on their time. I'd consider inviting just the kids over next time and let the other parent/s get a free babysitter while they go out shopping or something.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
This is specific, so I'll give a specific on exactly this! I don't like counting kids out, it's always bothered me. I'm not sure how it started or who started it, me or my hubby, but one time one of us said as an auto response to someone counting down, "One, Two,...", "Buckle my shoe". It stuck. Every time we hear this, it's almost automatic to respond with "Buckle my shoe". My kids have picked up on it and now they do it to.
A friend of ours heard us say that and her kids repeated it. A friend of that friend became rather exasperated over it when it spilled over into her world and her kids didn't take her seriously any more because they started saying "Buckle my shoe" when she started counting them out. Sometimes I wonder how many kids have started doing that simply because they heard one of us. I hope more parents continued the rhyme rather than become angry.
***Example. Food limiting and all aspects of food eating including shaming of my children for bad etiquette. ***
With food limiting, I've always ignored what other parents do to their own kids, in group contexts. I help my own kids get the food they want and need and let it go. That is really all about context. If there is an open buffet table, then I assume it is open to everyone. If we are supposed to eat sitting down, then we do so. Group eating, while sitting, does require some amount of etiquette. It doesn't need to be a big deal to help a kid do the right thing. Being loud and messy in a public place isn't really the most wonderful thing. Being greedy at a buffet table isn't a wonderful thing either.
We've been to unschooling meet ups where there was a buffet arrangement where parents were controlling food. That was hard and weird. It didn't seem to have a great impact on my kids, except that they felt a bit bad about their friends not being able to drink the hot cocoa before or with their "real" food.
***Its My mother...I have talked to her about this issue and others over steeping her boundary. She feels if I'm not going to then she has to. ***
Your mother can make her own decisions on how she wants her relationship to be with her grandkids. If it is her party, her house, her outing, then she can control that to her liking. Your kids will either go along with it, or they won't. They may decide one day that it isn't worth the frustration. For now, I'd help them find what is positive about that relationship.
***Also seeing their friends thrown onto time out. How do you talk to your child when your friends are right there doing the throwing of their friends. I was shocked but most of the people/families around us use this practice. Is it too late to talk about it later when the visitor had gone?***
If this happened in your home, you could possibly have a say in it. If a parent did that in my home, I'd stop it. Our time is valuable, even play date time, or especially play date time. I absolutely don't want that time spent with my own kids sad and frustrated at not being able to play with a friend that is being punished while in their home, on their time. I'd consider inviting just the kids over next time and let the other parent/s get a free babysitter while they go out shopping or something.
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Sandra Dodd
-=-If this happened in your home, you could possibly have a say in it. If a parent did that in my home, I'd stop it. Our time is valuable, even play date time, or especially play date time.-=-
Yeah, I would say "We don't have any time-out corners at our house" or something, and smile. If the mom is offended enough not to come back, that's one solution to the problem.
A dad threatened to spank his daughter at my house one day, and I said "Not in my house you won't" or something that quick and that direct. It surprised him, but he understood just as quickly.
Sandra
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Yeah, I would say "We don't have any time-out corners at our house" or something, and smile. If the mom is offended enough not to come back, that's one solution to the problem.
A dad threatened to spank his daughter at my house one day, and I said "Not in my house you won't" or something that quick and that direct. It surprised him, but he understood just as quickly.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]