The vacuum
Patti
My husband, myself and my 12 year old daughter are currently deschooling. We've been actively in process with this since the Good Vibrations conference a couple months ago.
Last night my 12 year old left the vacuum outside in the rain. My husband found it this morning. It cost $500. We are hoping that it will work when it dries. She feels bad about it. I'm unclear how to address it. We don't really have the money to replace it. I'm not angry though my husband is. I just want to do the best thing for her that will be healthy.
Background on this: I had a house cleaner one time only. I paid $90. My daughter told me she could be the house cleaner and earn money. I've never seen her more motivated. I told her she could have $45 a week to do what the housecleaner did. We made a plan. She's been doing a very good job and has had more "sparkle" than I have seen in awhile. She's making decisions about how to spend her earnings and what to save. She negotiates what she will purchase and what she thinks is my responsibility. It's very encouraging to see her so excited.
I wasn't going to bring the housecleaner back because we can't afford it but I decided I could find the money if it was part of unschooling/deschooling.
I think Brenda should help pay for the vacuum. But I don't want to ruin the sparkle since it's been a rare thing for the last few months as is a hard won victory. She's saving for a computer. I thought about making her pay 10 dollars a week since she's working and earning $45. Is that too little, too much?
Sometimes my husband says I let her off too easy. He thinks she should not be a irresponsible as she is. I'm pretty sure she's kind of normal for her age and I'm not sure riding her about stuff and punishing her is going to help. But I do hope she is going to grow to be a healthy, happy person and a valued community member and feel it's my responsibility to help with that.
As a community member myself I know I need to pay my debts, offer help to others, ask for help when I need it etc... I also insure myself heavily because I screw up and make mistakes too. Insurance has replaced two laptops for me. So maybe I'm not a good role model?
Or maybe my husband needs to loosen up? Instead of having a homeshooling room in our house as some might, we have a special lair for my husband so he can go and be in a spot that is clean and neat and unfettered with things of children and hobbies and dogs. I did that for him after Brenda started crawling and things started to get cluttered. He doesn't do well with clutter. He doesn't break things. When he reads books he won't crack the spine. They still look new when he's done. His room is pristine.
I treat books as consumables and take them everywhere. They are damp from the bath and the pages bent from being slept on. But they still line up ok in the bookshelf. He says my daughter and I are hoarders though I'm pretty sure you would laugh at that if you saw our house. It's pretty freaking neat.
My husband thinks we should just fire my daughter from housecleaning and he wants to sell the computer she uses to pay for the vacuum. That just feels drastic to me. I think it's angry talk and he needs to calm down.
I'm really lost. I want to help my daughter be responsible but I don't want her to shoulder more than a 12 year old should. I told my husband to just lay low for a few days until his temper cools and I told my daughter who is freaking and saying she's sorry but she can't pay for it because she's too young and she needs her money that I need time to figure out what my stand is going to be.
I'm feeling like a pretty crappy parent these last six or so months so it's pretty hard for me to post this. But my daughter is more important than my ego and I know I'm really missing something in my thinking right now.
Last night my 12 year old left the vacuum outside in the rain. My husband found it this morning. It cost $500. We are hoping that it will work when it dries. She feels bad about it. I'm unclear how to address it. We don't really have the money to replace it. I'm not angry though my husband is. I just want to do the best thing for her that will be healthy.
Background on this: I had a house cleaner one time only. I paid $90. My daughter told me she could be the house cleaner and earn money. I've never seen her more motivated. I told her she could have $45 a week to do what the housecleaner did. We made a plan. She's been doing a very good job and has had more "sparkle" than I have seen in awhile. She's making decisions about how to spend her earnings and what to save. She negotiates what she will purchase and what she thinks is my responsibility. It's very encouraging to see her so excited.
I wasn't going to bring the housecleaner back because we can't afford it but I decided I could find the money if it was part of unschooling/deschooling.
I think Brenda should help pay for the vacuum. But I don't want to ruin the sparkle since it's been a rare thing for the last few months as is a hard won victory. She's saving for a computer. I thought about making her pay 10 dollars a week since she's working and earning $45. Is that too little, too much?
Sometimes my husband says I let her off too easy. He thinks she should not be a irresponsible as she is. I'm pretty sure she's kind of normal for her age and I'm not sure riding her about stuff and punishing her is going to help. But I do hope she is going to grow to be a healthy, happy person and a valued community member and feel it's my responsibility to help with that.
As a community member myself I know I need to pay my debts, offer help to others, ask for help when I need it etc... I also insure myself heavily because I screw up and make mistakes too. Insurance has replaced two laptops for me. So maybe I'm not a good role model?
Or maybe my husband needs to loosen up? Instead of having a homeshooling room in our house as some might, we have a special lair for my husband so he can go and be in a spot that is clean and neat and unfettered with things of children and hobbies and dogs. I did that for him after Brenda started crawling and things started to get cluttered. He doesn't do well with clutter. He doesn't break things. When he reads books he won't crack the spine. They still look new when he's done. His room is pristine.
I treat books as consumables and take them everywhere. They are damp from the bath and the pages bent from being slept on. But they still line up ok in the bookshelf. He says my daughter and I are hoarders though I'm pretty sure you would laugh at that if you saw our house. It's pretty freaking neat.
My husband thinks we should just fire my daughter from housecleaning and he wants to sell the computer she uses to pay for the vacuum. That just feels drastic to me. I think it's angry talk and he needs to calm down.
I'm really lost. I want to help my daughter be responsible but I don't want her to shoulder more than a 12 year old should. I told my husband to just lay low for a few days until his temper cools and I told my daughter who is freaking and saying she's sorry but she can't pay for it because she's too young and she needs her money that I need time to figure out what my stand is going to be.
I'm feeling like a pretty crappy parent these last six or so months so it's pretty hard for me to post this. But my daughter is more important than my ego and I know I'm really missing something in my thinking right now.
Pam Sorooshian
She feels bad. So - commiserate with her. Be understanding about how it
feels to screw up and have people irritated with you. Tell her we all make
mistakes and what counts is that we learn from them. Be hopeful that it
might be fine when it dries - there is a good chance it will be. But, also,
tell her you can go buy a much less expensive vacuum and let her help you
figure out where (search online). And in the context of that conversation,
you can ask her if she'd feel better if she helped pay for a new one. Make
it about HER, not about the vacuum.
Commiserate with your husband, too. Be sympathetic about how hard it is to
work and earn money and see it lost through someone else's carelessness.
You can say, "It is hard to have to experience kids learning through their
own mistakes, sometimes."
You do want her to feel bad....because people who are careless with things
or waste money or otherwise are disrespectful should feel bad when they
realize it. So you should be glad that she feels bad about it - and don't
act like it is nothing to worry about.
Maybe you can help your husband understand that if you guys act too angry
and demand reparations and all that, then she will transfer her bad
feelings to being defensive and angry at you instead of the appropriately
bad feelings she has about her own mistake.
So - how did his parents treat him when HE made mistakes? How does he
handle it now when he makes mistakes? Does he take it out on other people?
My husband just spent the morning upset because yesterday he left a bag (a
really nice bag from Spain that was a gift) filled with several hundred
dollars worth of soccer supplies, on a soccer field. Didn't realize it
until today when he was going off to coach again. Chances that it would
still be there were slim and it has been raining, too. He was upset with
himself. He could have gotten mad and Rosie and me because we carried stuff
away from the field yesterday and didn't take that bag with us (he was
still there). But, he was great - he got all solution-oriented and thought
about how best to figure out if someone had picked it up, where it might
have ended up, how to replace or get by without the stuff that was in it,
etc. It was good he didn't get all worked up and angry and get the rest of
us worked up and defensive. Someone DID have it and it is safely home now
and we're having soup and homemade croutons and watching soccer in our cozy
house while it rains gently outside and life is really sweet!
The deed is done! She feels bad. Try not to make her feel worse. Try to
help her learn from it. One thing she'll learn is to be less careless (but
kids really don't have the same ability to foresee consequences and she
can't make her brain develop that until it does).
BY FAR the most important thing she can learn from her own mistakes is how
to behave when things go wrong - how to be forgiving when someone screws up
and, especially, how to be solution oriented! This is HUGE. I honestly
think it might be THE most important thing my kids learned, growing up, and
I learned along with them because it wasn't something I was great at,
myself.
There is almost nothing more valuable than the ability to say, "This really
sucks," and then follow it up with, "Okay, what can we do to make this
better?"
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
feels to screw up and have people irritated with you. Tell her we all make
mistakes and what counts is that we learn from them. Be hopeful that it
might be fine when it dries - there is a good chance it will be. But, also,
tell her you can go buy a much less expensive vacuum and let her help you
figure out where (search online). And in the context of that conversation,
you can ask her if she'd feel better if she helped pay for a new one. Make
it about HER, not about the vacuum.
Commiserate with your husband, too. Be sympathetic about how hard it is to
work and earn money and see it lost through someone else's carelessness.
You can say, "It is hard to have to experience kids learning through their
own mistakes, sometimes."
You do want her to feel bad....because people who are careless with things
or waste money or otherwise are disrespectful should feel bad when they
realize it. So you should be glad that she feels bad about it - and don't
act like it is nothing to worry about.
Maybe you can help your husband understand that if you guys act too angry
and demand reparations and all that, then she will transfer her bad
feelings to being defensive and angry at you instead of the appropriately
bad feelings she has about her own mistake.
So - how did his parents treat him when HE made mistakes? How does he
handle it now when he makes mistakes? Does he take it out on other people?
My husband just spent the morning upset because yesterday he left a bag (a
really nice bag from Spain that was a gift) filled with several hundred
dollars worth of soccer supplies, on a soccer field. Didn't realize it
until today when he was going off to coach again. Chances that it would
still be there were slim and it has been raining, too. He was upset with
himself. He could have gotten mad and Rosie and me because we carried stuff
away from the field yesterday and didn't take that bag with us (he was
still there). But, he was great - he got all solution-oriented and thought
about how best to figure out if someone had picked it up, where it might
have ended up, how to replace or get by without the stuff that was in it,
etc. It was good he didn't get all worked up and angry and get the rest of
us worked up and defensive. Someone DID have it and it is safely home now
and we're having soup and homemade croutons and watching soccer in our cozy
house while it rains gently outside and life is really sweet!
The deed is done! She feels bad. Try not to make her feel worse. Try to
help her learn from it. One thing she'll learn is to be less careless (but
kids really don't have the same ability to foresee consequences and she
can't make her brain develop that until it does).
BY FAR the most important thing she can learn from her own mistakes is how
to behave when things go wrong - how to be forgiving when someone screws up
and, especially, how to be solution oriented! This is HUGE. I honestly
think it might be THE most important thing my kids learned, growing up, and
I learned along with them because it wasn't something I was great at,
myself.
There is almost nothing more valuable than the ability to say, "This really
sucks," and then follow it up with, "Okay, what can we do to make this
better?"
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<<<Last night my 12 year old left the vacuum outside in the rain. My husband found it this morning. It cost $500. We are hoping that it will work when it dries. She feels bad about it. I'm unclear how to address it. We don't really have the money to replace it. I'm not angry though my husband is. I just want to do the best thing for her that will be healthy. >>>>
Things like that happen. I have done many things in my life like that. It is life. SHe is 12. Much older and "responsible" adults do that all the time. It is just a vacuum. It may even work still. If not it may be fixable for little. She feels horrible about it ( for what you have written).
My husband and I still laugh about all the cel phones he has "killed" this last one has been alive for over a year now and that is amazing. Is he becoming more responsible? I think he is a pretty responsible man already.
<<<<I think Brenda should help pay for the vacuum. But I don't want to ruin the sparkle since it's been a rare thing for the last few months as is a hard won victory. She's saving for a computer. I thought about making her pay 10 dollars a week since she's working and earning $45. Is that too little, too much?>>>>>
You think by making her pay you will be teaching her responsibility? Was she cleaning the car with the vacuum and forgot to bring it in?
<<<<"Sometimes my husband says I let her off too easy. He thinks she should not be a irresponsible as she is. ">>>
She is 12!! May adults forget things outside! or break things. If she is not ready to remember to bring things in the house then she needs help. Reminders, gently not nagging.
<<<"I'm pretty sure she's kind of normal for her age and I'm not sure riding her about stuff and punishing her is going to help. But I do hope she is going to grow to be a healthy, happy person and a valued community member and feel it's my responsibility to help with that.">>>>>
So it seems like you both are afraid she is not going to learn to be responsible , healthy , happy person and valued community member if she does not get punished or suffer a consequence that you come up with?
<<<"As a community member myself I know I need to pay my debts, offer help to others, ask for help when I need it etc... I also insure myself heavily because I screw up and make mistakes too. Insurance has replaced two laptops for me. So maybe I'm not a good role model? ">>>>>
Can she insure herself or is she a 12 year old child that still needs her parents because we all screw up from time to time. We learn from it. No need to be punished to learn that we screwed up. The vacuum maybe OK or many need a little fixing. Stuff happens. Brainstorm ways that you can help her next time. She is 12.
<<<<"My husband thinks we should just fire my daughter from housecleaning and he wants to sell the computer she uses to pay for the vacuum. That just feels drastic to me. I think it's angry talk and he needs to calm down. ">>>>>>>
If she was in school would he think that you should sell her school books to pay for it?? Her computer is a huge part of her "educational" resources and a huge tool for learning. Why would someone sell it? Plus used computers go for very little money so not even worth to sell them . They are definitely not money makers or have good resale value.
What would happen if you had left the vacuum out?
What stand would you have if your husband had left the vacuum out?
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Things like that happen. I have done many things in my life like that. It is life. SHe is 12. Much older and "responsible" adults do that all the time. It is just a vacuum. It may even work still. If not it may be fixable for little. She feels horrible about it ( for what you have written).
My husband and I still laugh about all the cel phones he has "killed" this last one has been alive for over a year now and that is amazing. Is he becoming more responsible? I think he is a pretty responsible man already.
<<<<I think Brenda should help pay for the vacuum. But I don't want to ruin the sparkle since it's been a rare thing for the last few months as is a hard won victory. She's saving for a computer. I thought about making her pay 10 dollars a week since she's working and earning $45. Is that too little, too much?>>>>>
You think by making her pay you will be teaching her responsibility? Was she cleaning the car with the vacuum and forgot to bring it in?
<<<<"Sometimes my husband says I let her off too easy. He thinks she should not be a irresponsible as she is. ">>>
She is 12!! May adults forget things outside! or break things. If she is not ready to remember to bring things in the house then she needs help. Reminders, gently not nagging.
<<<"I'm pretty sure she's kind of normal for her age and I'm not sure riding her about stuff and punishing her is going to help. But I do hope she is going to grow to be a healthy, happy person and a valued community member and feel it's my responsibility to help with that.">>>>>
So it seems like you both are afraid she is not going to learn to be responsible , healthy , happy person and valued community member if she does not get punished or suffer a consequence that you come up with?
<<<"As a community member myself I know I need to pay my debts, offer help to others, ask for help when I need it etc... I also insure myself heavily because I screw up and make mistakes too. Insurance has replaced two laptops for me. So maybe I'm not a good role model? ">>>>>
Can she insure herself or is she a 12 year old child that still needs her parents because we all screw up from time to time. We learn from it. No need to be punished to learn that we screwed up. The vacuum maybe OK or many need a little fixing. Stuff happens. Brainstorm ways that you can help her next time. She is 12.
<<<<"My husband thinks we should just fire my daughter from housecleaning and he wants to sell the computer she uses to pay for the vacuum. That just feels drastic to me. I think it's angry talk and he needs to calm down. ">>>>>>>
If she was in school would he think that you should sell her school books to pay for it?? Her computer is a huge part of her "educational" resources and a huge tool for learning. Why would someone sell it? Plus used computers go for very little money so not even worth to sell them . They are definitely not money makers or have good resale value.
What would happen if you had left the vacuum out?
What stand would you have if your husband had left the vacuum out?
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
Things like that happen. I have done many things in my life like that.
It is life. SHe is 12. Much older and "responsible" adults do that all
the time. It is just a vacuum. It may even work still. If not it may be fixable for little. She feels horrible about it ( for what you have
written).
My husband and I still laugh about all the cel phones he has "killed"
this last one has been alive for over a year now and that is amazing. Is
he becoming more responsible? I think he is a pretty responsible man
already.
=-=-=-=-=-=-
Oh and he has definitely become more careful of his cel phone !
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
It is life. SHe is 12. Much older and "responsible" adults do that all
the time. It is just a vacuum. It may even work still. If not it may be fixable for little. She feels horrible about it ( for what you have
written).
My husband and I still laugh about all the cel phones he has "killed"
this last one has been alive for over a year now and that is amazing. Is
he becoming more responsible? I think he is a pretty responsible man
already.
=-=-=-=-=-=-
Oh and he has definitely become more careful of his cel phone !
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jennifer Schuelein
My son Xander is 11. Last year when he was 10, he clogged the toilet in his part of the house (he has a hallway with 3 rooms and a bath) and flooded the entire area. We had to call carpet cleaners to fix the damage to his play room and his bedroom. This cost about $600. Not once did I even think to have Xander help pay for the damage. After all, it was an accident. Xander felt horrible (so horrible that he was sad for days). I didn't have to scold him for him to feel responsible for his actions. He knew right away that he had messed up and saw the consequences first hand. I realized it was an accident and that he IS trying his best. He didn't overflow the toilet on purpose. Your Brenda didn't leave the vacuum outside on purpose. It was an accident. Accidents happen to all of us. She's in the process of learning about life. She's growing every minute and she will grow from this experience.
The mere fact that your daughter feels very strong remorse should be enough. She gets it. She feels very bad and realizes her mistake. I think that is enough "punishment".
One thing to remember when unschooling is that anger really doesn't play a big role in the scheme of things. When I feel anger about something in relation to Xander, I check myself right away. I can't give him the proper love and support when I'm angry or if I get angry easily. Over the years, I have released myself from anger. When Xander was little, I would get so worked up over small things or even big things. This didn't help the situations. When I stay calm and have a positive attitude even in light of dark situations, things go more smoothly.
The mere fact that your daughter feels very strong remorse should be enough. She gets it. She feels very bad and realizes her mistake. I think that is enough "punishment".
One thing to remember when unschooling is that anger really doesn't play a big role in the scheme of things. When I feel anger about something in relation to Xander, I check myself right away. I can't give him the proper love and support when I'm angry or if I get angry easily. Over the years, I have released myself from anger. When Xander was little, I would get so worked up over small things or even big things. This didn't help the situations. When I stay calm and have a positive attitude even in light of dark situations, things go more smoothly.
--- In [email protected], "Patti" <patti.dengler@...> wrote:
>
> My husband, myself and my 12 year old daughter are currently deschooling. We've been actively in process with this since the Good Vibrations conference a couple months ago.
>
> Last night my 12 year old left the vacuum outside in the rain. My husband found it this morning. It cost $500. We are hoping that it will work when it dries. She feels bad about it. I'm unclear how to address it. We don't really have the money to replace it. I'm not angry though my husband is. I just want to do the best thing for her that will be healthy.
>
> Background on this: I had a house cleaner one time only. I paid $90. My daughter told me she could be the house cleaner and earn money. I've never seen her more motivated. I told her she could have $45 a week to do what the housecleaner did. We made a plan. She's been doing a very good job and has had more "sparkle" than I have seen in awhile. She's making decisions about how to spend her earnings and what to save. She negotiates what she will purchase and what she thinks is my responsibility. It's very encouraging to see her so excited.
>
> I wasn't going to bring the housecleaner back because we can't afford it but I decided I could find the money if it was part of unschooling/deschooling.
>
> I think Brenda should help pay for the vacuum. But I don't want to ruin the sparkle since it's been a rare thing for the last few months as is a hard won victory. She's saving for a computer. I thought about making her pay 10 dollars a week since she's working and earning $45. Is that too little, too much?
>
> Sometimes my husband says I let her off too easy. He thinks she should not be a irresponsible as she is. I'm pretty sure she's kind of normal for her age and I'm not sure riding her about stuff and punishing her is going to help. But I do hope she is going to grow to be a healthy, happy person and a valued community member and feel it's my responsibility to help with that.
>
> As a community member myself I know I need to pay my debts, offer help to others, ask for help when I need it etc... I also insure myself heavily because I screw up and make mistakes too. Insurance has replaced two laptops for me. So maybe I'm not a good role model?
>
> Or maybe my husband needs to loosen up? Instead of having a homeshooling room in our house as some might, we have a special lair for my husband so he can go and be in a spot that is clean and neat and unfettered with things of children and hobbies and dogs. I did that for him after Brenda started crawling and things started to get cluttered. He doesn't do well with clutter. He doesn't break things. When he reads books he won't crack the spine. They still look new when he's done. His room is pristine.
>
> I treat books as consumables and take them everywhere. They are damp from the bath and the pages bent from being slept on. But they still line up ok in the bookshelf. He says my daughter and I are hoarders though I'm pretty sure you would laugh at that if you saw our house. It's pretty freaking neat.
>
> My husband thinks we should just fire my daughter from housecleaning and he wants to sell the computer she uses to pay for the vacuum. That just feels drastic to me. I think it's angry talk and he needs to calm down.
>
> I'm really lost. I want to help my daughter be responsible but I don't want her to shoulder more than a 12 year old should. I told my husband to just lay low for a few days until his temper cools and I told my daughter who is freaking and saying she's sorry but she can't pay for it because she's too young and she needs her money that I need time to figure out what my stand is going to be.
>
> I'm feeling like a pretty crappy parent these last six or so months so it's pretty hard for me to post this. But my daughter is more important than my ego and I know I'm really missing something in my thinking right now.
>
Jennifer Schuelein
Oh that reminds me! My husband has lost an iPhone and an iPad. Those are pricey items. There was no point in getting angry. Both items were lost by accident. My husband is a very responsible, wonderful guy. Neither of us got angry when he lost them. There was no point. He realized, "Hey, I need to be much more careful with my electronics." He has not lost his replacements and he's much more careful. It was a learning experience, even though an expensive one. In our house we say, "Things are things, but people are what count."
--- In [email protected], BRIAN POLIKOWSKY <polykowholsteins@...> wrote:
>
> Things like that happen. I have done many things in my life like that.
> It is life. SHe is 12. Much older and "responsible" adults do that all
> the time. It is just a vacuum. It may even work still. If not it may be fixable for little. She feels horrible about it ( for what you have
> written).
> My husband and I still laugh about all the cel phones he has "killed"
> this last one has been alive for over a year now and that is amazing. Is
> he becoming more responsible? I think he is a pretty responsible man
> already.
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-
>
> Oh and he has definitely become more careful of his cel phone !
>
>
> Alex Polikowsky
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Jenny Cyphers
***Be hopeful that it
might be fine when it dries - there is a good chance it will be. But, also,
tell her you can go buy a much less expensive vacuum and let her help you
figure out where (search online).***
Also, I know this seems hard to believe, but people give away vacuums all the time. People also sell expensive vacuum cleaners very cheaply on craigslist. I was looking into buying a $400 vacuum cleaner and found someone selling one on craigslist for $65. I don't know why this is so, but I assume that sometimes people buy products and when they don't like them, rather than keeping them around for years unused, they get what they can from them, or people get rid of carpets and invest in steam cleaners or the like. Vacuum cleaners can also be repaired, sometimes for much less than the cost of buying a new one. There are more choices than simply replacing one expensive vacuum cleaner with another expensive vacuum cleaner.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
might be fine when it dries - there is a good chance it will be. But, also,
tell her you can go buy a much less expensive vacuum and let her help you
figure out where (search online).***
Also, I know this seems hard to believe, but people give away vacuums all the time. People also sell expensive vacuum cleaners very cheaply on craigslist. I was looking into buying a $400 vacuum cleaner and found someone selling one on craigslist for $65. I don't know why this is so, but I assume that sometimes people buy products and when they don't like them, rather than keeping them around for years unused, they get what they can from them, or people get rid of carpets and invest in steam cleaners or the like. Vacuum cleaners can also be repaired, sometimes for much less than the cost of buying a new one. There are more choices than simply replacing one expensive vacuum cleaner with another expensive vacuum cleaner.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It is just a vacuum. It may even work still. If not it may be fixable for little. She feels horrible about it ( for what you have written). -=-
That's important.
It's not $500 to repair it, IF it was ruined. But it's VERY unlikely that it's ruined.
I wondered about this, too:
-=- You think by making her pay you will be teaching her responsibility? Was she cleaning the car with the vacuum and forgot to bring it in?-=-
An adult who owns a $500 vacuum cleaner entrusted it to a 12 year old.
Would you have let her drive the car?
She's twelve.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
That's important.
It's not $500 to repair it, IF it was ruined. But it's VERY unlikely that it's ruined.
I wondered about this, too:
-=- You think by making her pay you will be teaching her responsibility? Was she cleaning the car with the vacuum and forgot to bring it in?-=-
An adult who owns a $500 vacuum cleaner entrusted it to a 12 year old.
Would you have let her drive the car?
She's twelve.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
This came from a new member to the list. It will be anonymous here. Partly, I want to talk about how the list works.
------------------------
<<What would happen if you had left the vacuum out?>>
What's done is done. While it is true that it won't do anyone any good to continue to harp on the subject, someone does have to pay for the possible replacement of the vacuum. By not holding her responsible for at least some of the cost, what is she learning?
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"What's done is done" doesn't really apply to a discussion of the principles involved in unschooling. Asking a mom to consider the question from other angles is the basis of philosophical discussion.
It DOES matter what would have happened if the dad left it out, or the mom, or an older child, or a younger child. Understanding one's own emotional and logical responses helps with subsequent decisions and reactions. Parents are learning how to be better parents.
-=-someone does have to pay for the possible replacement of the vacuum.-=-
"Have to" is much stronger than "possible replacement." If it's not even certain, there is certainly no "have to." Many families live without vacuum cleaners.
-=-By not holding her responsible for at least some of the cost, what is she learning?-=-
I like this question. I don't like what I think was the intention of the person who asked it, but there ARE things learned by children whose parents are generous and compassionate.
If a parent holds a twelve year old responsible for some of the cost of an appliance that didn't even belong to her, what is she learning?
Very important questions to consider.
Sandra
------------------------
<<What would happen if you had left the vacuum out?>>
What's done is done. While it is true that it won't do anyone any good to continue to harp on the subject, someone does have to pay for the possible replacement of the vacuum. By not holding her responsible for at least some of the cost, what is she learning?
------------------------
"What's done is done" doesn't really apply to a discussion of the principles involved in unschooling. Asking a mom to consider the question from other angles is the basis of philosophical discussion.
It DOES matter what would have happened if the dad left it out, or the mom, or an older child, or a younger child. Understanding one's own emotional and logical responses helps with subsequent decisions and reactions. Parents are learning how to be better parents.
-=-someone does have to pay for the possible replacement of the vacuum.-=-
"Have to" is much stronger than "possible replacement." If it's not even certain, there is certainly no "have to." Many families live without vacuum cleaners.
-=-By not holding her responsible for at least some of the cost, what is she learning?-=-
I like this question. I don't like what I think was the intention of the person who asked it, but there ARE things learned by children whose parents are generous and compassionate.
If a parent holds a twelve year old responsible for some of the cost of an appliance that didn't even belong to her, what is she learning?
Very important questions to consider.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 20, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Patti wrote:
If I was punished on top of feeling bad, it felt like my parents were
saying, "Unless I punish you, I know for certain you'll do something
similarly thoughtless again."
What that did was make me feel less bad about what I'd done and made
me angry that I was being thought of as deliberately thoughtless and
so uncaring that I needed goodness punished into me.
(If adults could see their actions through the eyes of a child, the
actions and assumptions don't even make sense!)
In a perfect world where everyone was thoughtful, it would be polite
if she offered to pay for it.
But if she didn't, it would be polite of you to think the best of her
and know she feels really badly, cares about your friendship but isn't
financially able to pay.
To ask would risk damaging the friendship. 20 years down the line,
would you think back that you'd rather have the vacuum or your friend?
The more gracious you are to your daughter, expressing your
understanding (with loads of hugs) that she didn't mean to leave it
out, the more gracious she'll be. Draw her into the process of *you*
researching a new vacuum and figuring out how to pay for it. Don't
even suggest she pay for part of it. If she does, two relationship
building responses are that you really appreciate the offer, but it's
your responsibility to get a new vacuum, or accept some small amount.
(The second I think is better, would help her let go of the guilt by
allowing her to do something to help.) *If* you can ask in a way that
*isn't'* to punish, that *isn't* to make her do what she "should", but
says "I know you feel bad and want to help" you could ask her if she'd
like to contribute.
Check Consumer Reports. They just did a report on vacuums in the
November issue. (The Buying Guide (the paperback compilation) is about
to come out. I believe it comes out late November or early December so
should be available if you can't find the current issue.) The
cheapest, highest rated, most reliable model upright is $250. Canister
is $300. But there's also a Dirt Devil upright that's rated Good to
Excellent on various factors and it's $50. It might get you through
until you can afford a better one.
Joyce
> I think Brenda should help pay for the vacuum.As a child who once made mistakes, I guarantee she feels badly.
If I was punished on top of feeling bad, it felt like my parents were
saying, "Unless I punish you, I know for certain you'll do something
similarly thoughtless again."
What that did was make me feel less bad about what I'd done and made
me angry that I was being thought of as deliberately thoughtless and
so uncaring that I needed goodness punished into me.
(If adults could see their actions through the eyes of a child, the
actions and assumptions don't even make sense!)
> I thought about making her pay 10 dollars a week since she's workingIf a good friend left your vacuum out, what would you do?
> and earning $45. Is that too little, too much?
In a perfect world where everyone was thoughtful, it would be polite
if she offered to pay for it.
But if she didn't, it would be polite of you to think the best of her
and know she feels really badly, cares about your friendship but isn't
financially able to pay.
To ask would risk damaging the friendship. 20 years down the line,
would you think back that you'd rather have the vacuum or your friend?
The more gracious you are to your daughter, expressing your
understanding (with loads of hugs) that she didn't mean to leave it
out, the more gracious she'll be. Draw her into the process of *you*
researching a new vacuum and figuring out how to pay for it. Don't
even suggest she pay for part of it. If she does, two relationship
building responses are that you really appreciate the offer, but it's
your responsibility to get a new vacuum, or accept some small amount.
(The second I think is better, would help her let go of the guilt by
allowing her to do something to help.) *If* you can ask in a way that
*isn't'* to punish, that *isn't* to make her do what she "should", but
says "I know you feel bad and want to help" you could ask her if she'd
like to contribute.
Check Consumer Reports. They just did a report on vacuums in the
November issue. (The Buying Guide (the paperback compilation) is about
to come out. I believe it comes out late November or early December so
should be available if you can't find the current issue.) The
cheapest, highest rated, most reliable model upright is $250. Canister
is $300. But there's also a Dirt Devil upright that's rated Good to
Excellent on various factors and it's $50. It might get you through
until you can afford a better one.
Joyce
Jennifer Schuelein
I have an idea...Leave the vacuum to dry out 100% meaning all of the electric parts need to dry completely before switching it on and then see if you even need a new one. When electric parts get wet, most of the time they will work after they dry completely. This happened to me with a laptop and the laptop works great now! I dumped 40 ounces of water on it accidentally and left it dry with some damprid in a drawer. This isn't possible for the vacuum, but wait and see if it does work after it's dry.
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
> On Nov 20, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Patti wrote:
>
> > I think Brenda should help pay for the vacuum.
>
> As a child who once made mistakes, I guarantee she feels badly.
>
> If I was punished on top of feeling bad, it felt like my parents were
> saying, "Unless I punish you, I know for certain you'll do something
> similarly thoughtless again."
>
> What that did was make me feel less bad about what I'd done and made
> me angry that I was being thought of as deliberately thoughtless and
> so uncaring that I needed goodness punished into me.
>
> (If adults could see their actions through the eyes of a child, the
> actions and assumptions don't even make sense!)
>
> > I thought about making her pay 10 dollars a week since she's working
> > and earning $45. Is that too little, too much?
>
> If a good friend left your vacuum out, what would you do?
>
> In a perfect world where everyone was thoughtful, it would be polite
> if she offered to pay for it.
>
> But if she didn't, it would be polite of you to think the best of her
> and know she feels really badly, cares about your friendship but isn't
> financially able to pay.
>
> To ask would risk damaging the friendship. 20 years down the line,
> would you think back that you'd rather have the vacuum or your friend?
>
> The more gracious you are to your daughter, expressing your
> understanding (with loads of hugs) that she didn't mean to leave it
> out, the more gracious she'll be. Draw her into the process of *you*
> researching a new vacuum and figuring out how to pay for it. Don't
> even suggest she pay for part of it. If she does, two relationship
> building responses are that you really appreciate the offer, but it's
> your responsibility to get a new vacuum, or accept some small amount.
> (The second I think is better, would help her let go of the guilt by
> allowing her to do something to help.) *If* you can ask in a way that
> *isn't'* to punish, that *isn't* to make her do what she "should", but
> says "I know you feel bad and want to help" you could ask her if she'd
> like to contribute.
>
> Check Consumer Reports. They just did a report on vacuums in the
> November issue. (The Buying Guide (the paperback compilation) is about
> to come out. I believe it comes out late November or early December so
> should be available if you can't find the current issue.) The
> cheapest, highest rated, most reliable model upright is $250. Canister
> is $300. But there's also a Dirt Devil upright that's rated Good to
> Excellent on various factors and it's $50. It might get you through
> until you can afford a better one.
>
> Joyce
>
Karen
> If a good friend left your vacuum out, what would you do?I had a good friend who wanted to borrow my new vacuum. I'm not a vacuum nut, but l really liked this vacuum. I paid close to $400 for it. I used a broom before this vacuum, so for me that was a lot of money. Anyway, when I got this vacuum back, I opened the hepa filters up and saw they were black. I think she must have vacuumed out a fireplace or something really dirty. I bought it because my son has allergies, and I was hoping it would help with our home environment. I have to say, initially, I was really upset. But, I fixed it. She doesn't have the money to replace the filters, and I wouldn't dream of asking her. Was I disappointed? Yes. Did she know that? Yes. That was enough.
Karen.
Patti Dengler
Thank you for all your support. Your responses have been very helpful and made me think pretty hard.
My first reaction really is to put my arm around my daughter and comfort her when something like this happens. In fact she woke me up to tell me what had happened and how angry her father was and the first thing I did was to sit next to her and hug and kiss her. I did tell her "better a broken vacuum than a broken heart."
Then I got confused about what I'm "supposed" to do in order to help her be responsible. She asked me "am I going to have to pay for this?" I've never made her pay for things before so it was a weird question to begin with but for some reason it made me think I should be more "parental" and set up a payment plan. Plus my husband was so angry. I guess I thought I was supposed to be angry too- Or like I was supposed to help her learn from her mistake rather than relying on my instinctive knowledge that when she messes up she is only too acutely aware of it and doesn't need me to insure her understanding.
It helps me to hear you all saying things that take me back to the inclination to just be respectful and loving and trusting and work things out from there. I am very aware of how hard it is to make human mistakes and how bad it feels. I do it all the time. I did it today. But I know that this is one day and tomorrow is another day and things will be different then. Hopefully we will grow from this and move on to other things.
I talked with her about your responses and my thoughts. She talked with me about her thoughts. She and I had a pretty good day sitting by the fire. We watched her TV shows and she played her computer game while I pondered your thoughts.
I'm crying now because of how much it means to me that you all would take the time to answer me and help me with this. Sometimes I feel very alone (but that is another story for another day). Thank you so much for your time, honesty and support.
My first reaction really is to put my arm around my daughter and comfort her when something like this happens. In fact she woke me up to tell me what had happened and how angry her father was and the first thing I did was to sit next to her and hug and kiss her. I did tell her "better a broken vacuum than a broken heart."
Then I got confused about what I'm "supposed" to do in order to help her be responsible. She asked me "am I going to have to pay for this?" I've never made her pay for things before so it was a weird question to begin with but for some reason it made me think I should be more "parental" and set up a payment plan. Plus my husband was so angry. I guess I thought I was supposed to be angry too- Or like I was supposed to help her learn from her mistake rather than relying on my instinctive knowledge that when she messes up she is only too acutely aware of it and doesn't need me to insure her understanding.
It helps me to hear you all saying things that take me back to the inclination to just be respectful and loving and trusting and work things out from there. I am very aware of how hard it is to make human mistakes and how bad it feels. I do it all the time. I did it today. But I know that this is one day and tomorrow is another day and things will be different then. Hopefully we will grow from this and move on to other things.
I talked with her about your responses and my thoughts. She talked with me about her thoughts. She and I had a pretty good day sitting by the fire. We watched her TV shows and she played her computer game while I pondered your thoughts.
I'm crying now because of how much it means to me that you all would take the time to answer me and help me with this. Sometimes I feel very alone (but that is another story for another day). Thank you so much for your time, honesty and support.
On Nov 20, 2011, at 6:40 PM, Jennifer Schuelein wrote:
> I have an idea...Leave the vacuum to dry out 100% meaning all of the electric parts need to dry completely before switching it on and then see if you even need a new one. When electric parts get wet, most of the time they will work after they dry completely. This happened to me with a laptop and the laptop works great now! I dumped 40 ounces of water on it accidentally and left it dry with some damprid in a drawer. This isn't possible for the vacuum, but wait and see if it does work after it's dry.
>
> --- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
> >
> > On Nov 20, 2011, at 3:09 PM, Patti wrote:
> >
> > > I think Brenda should help pay for the vacuum.
> >
> > As a child who once made mistakes, I guarantee she feels badly.
> >
> > If I was punished on top of feeling bad, it felt like my parents were
> > saying, "Unless I punish you, I know for certain you'll do something
> > similarly thoughtless again."
> >
> > What that did was make me feel less bad about what I'd done and made
> > me angry that I was being thought of as deliberately thoughtless and
> > so uncaring that I needed goodness punished into me.
> >
> > (If adults could see their actions through the eyes of a child, the
> > actions and assumptions don't even make sense!)
> >
> > > I thought about making her pay 10 dollars a week since she's working
> > > and earning $45. Is that too little, too much?
> >
> > If a good friend left your vacuum out, what would you do?
> >
> > In a perfect world where everyone was thoughtful, it would be polite
> > if she offered to pay for it.
> >
> > But if she didn't, it would be polite of you to think the best of her
> > and know she feels really badly, cares about your friendship but isn't
> > financially able to pay.
> >
> > To ask would risk damaging the friendship. 20 years down the line,
> > would you think back that you'd rather have the vacuum or your friend?
> >
> > The more gracious you are to your daughter, expressing your
> > understanding (with loads of hugs) that she didn't mean to leave it
> > out, the more gracious she'll be. Draw her into the process of *you*
> > researching a new vacuum and figuring out how to pay for it. Don't
> > even suggest she pay for part of it. If she does, two relationship
> > building responses are that you really appreciate the offer, but it's
> > your responsibility to get a new vacuum, or accept some small amount.
> > (The second I think is better, would help her let go of the guilt by
> > allowing her to do something to help.) *If* you can ask in a way that
> > *isn't'* to punish, that *isn't* to make her do what she "should", but
> > says "I know you feel bad and want to help" you could ask her if she'd
> > like to contribute.
> >
> > Check Consumer Reports. They just did a report on vacuums in the
> > November issue. (The Buying Guide (the paperback compilation) is about
> > to come out. I believe it comes out late November or early December so
> > should be available if you can't find the current issue.) The
> > cheapest, highest rated, most reliable model upright is $250. Canister
> > is $300. But there's also a Dirt Devil upright that's rated Good to
> > Excellent on various factors and it's $50. It might get you through
> > until you can afford a better one.
> >
> > Joyce
> >
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I'm crying now because of how much it means to me that you all would take the time to answer me and help me with this. Sometimes I feel very alone (but that is another story for another day). Thank you so much for your time, honesty and support.-=-
You're welcome, but the primary purpose of the discussion is to help everyone who reads it. Maybe only one appliance needs to be ruined for ALL of us to consider the emotions and realities surrounding what to do next while maintaining a loving relationship and considering how people learn and what benefits partnerships. :-)
It's wonderful that it actually did help your family and your situation (I hope it will; I hope your husband will not be so angry for too long, or won't resent a more generous resolution). But even if you had said "These ideas STINK!" others would have run their own parental knowledge, experience and growth through the scenario, thought of what they might do, or might advise (even those very many who read it but didn't respond) and it's useful to lots of people!
Sandra
You're welcome, but the primary purpose of the discussion is to help everyone who reads it. Maybe only one appliance needs to be ruined for ALL of us to consider the emotions and realities surrounding what to do next while maintaining a loving relationship and considering how people learn and what benefits partnerships. :-)
It's wonderful that it actually did help your family and your situation (I hope it will; I hope your husband will not be so angry for too long, or won't resent a more generous resolution). But even if you had said "These ideas STINK!" others would have run their own parental knowledge, experience and growth through the scenario, thought of what they might do, or might advise (even those very many who read it but didn't respond) and it's useful to lots of people!
Sandra