Piano Lessons and Approaching New Challenges
Karen
I have been following the conversation about tiger moms and music lessons, and I'm at a loss for what to do. My son is 8, and has been taking lessons for a couple of years. I will give some background:
My husband loves music. He plays guitar and piano and likes to drum. Since Ethan was little they have been playing music and singing favourite songs together. Ethan loves it. We got our piano a few years ago, second hand, and from day one Ethan was intrigued by it. He started finding songs on the keys - the theme song to World of Goo, the Linus song from Charley Brown, and a few others I can't remember any longer.
I talked about me taking lessons. I have never played an instrument, and I have always wanted to learn to play the piano. Ethan piped up and said, "I want to take lessons." We went and sat in on a lesson. Ethan loved it, and loved the teacher. We decided to take the lesson together. Every week I practice, and this helps him hear the music. He plays best by ear. I seem to do better reading music. That part has worked out well.
The part that isn't working, in my opinion, is how hard Ethan is on himself at the start of every new piece. He wants to get it to the point that he likes right away, and it so frustrated by the slow process of learning in the beginning, to the point where he dreads the beginning. He cries, and claims he will never get it, although he always does. He does this with video games too. He has a hard time with early challenges, and wants to get things right off the bat. He doesn't want to quit, but he doesn't like the early process. I try to stay calm, give him suggestions like take deep breaths, take breaks, slow down, try smaller chunks of the music. He doesn't want these kinds of suggestions. He just wants to get it, and he does, but the getting there is really hard for him.
I have suggested a couple times that we take a break from the lessons. I don't feel like it is going to increase his love of music or help our relationship with this kind of continued stress every week. We have talked to the teacher about it, and she has been very supportive. She is young, and understands and embraces how we learn. She is really great with Ethan in class. She takes tangents and loves the way he approaches his learning on the piano. Ethan likes to compose pieces or change pieces, and she loves this. One lesson they found all of the scales by ear, because Ethan wanted to. She closed the books, leaving her lesson plans. She was so excited by what he was doing. She lets go of technique in favour of his learning style. We feel really fortunate to have met her. I don't think it would have lasted this long without her.
But, *I* still want to stop the lessons for now. And, Ethan does not. He really doesn't. He gets upset when I suggest it. I don't know what to do. I don't want to stop, myself, because he likes us doing this together. I think he would feel like I was walking away from him, or giving up on him. I don't want to do that.
Does anyone have experience with their kids having a really hard time with new challenges of their choosing? What did you do to help them? Like I said, we see this in new video games, new levels in games he knows, new songs, wanting to draw a character just like the character, and many other places too. He is really hard on himself when he doesn't get things to go the way he wants them to on the first try. Always has been. He used to get so frustrated by the marbles not going down the tracks the way he had planned, or trains not meeting up on the tracks the way he had envisioned. He would stomp and cry out loudly. He seemed just devastated. Then, when he does get whatever it is, he is thrilled.
We've watched "Meet the Robinsons" a few times, and talked about celebrating mistakes. We've read about mistakes that have become inventions. We've talked about Thomas Edison inventing 1000 or so lightbulbs before he made the one that finally worked. He loves these stories, but can't seem to apply this idea to his own mistakes. He is really kind and encouraging when I make mistakes, but really hard on himself. That is so hard for me. I wish he would be this kind to himself.
Any suggestions or questions welcome! Thanks.
Karen.
My husband loves music. He plays guitar and piano and likes to drum. Since Ethan was little they have been playing music and singing favourite songs together. Ethan loves it. We got our piano a few years ago, second hand, and from day one Ethan was intrigued by it. He started finding songs on the keys - the theme song to World of Goo, the Linus song from Charley Brown, and a few others I can't remember any longer.
I talked about me taking lessons. I have never played an instrument, and I have always wanted to learn to play the piano. Ethan piped up and said, "I want to take lessons." We went and sat in on a lesson. Ethan loved it, and loved the teacher. We decided to take the lesson together. Every week I practice, and this helps him hear the music. He plays best by ear. I seem to do better reading music. That part has worked out well.
The part that isn't working, in my opinion, is how hard Ethan is on himself at the start of every new piece. He wants to get it to the point that he likes right away, and it so frustrated by the slow process of learning in the beginning, to the point where he dreads the beginning. He cries, and claims he will never get it, although he always does. He does this with video games too. He has a hard time with early challenges, and wants to get things right off the bat. He doesn't want to quit, but he doesn't like the early process. I try to stay calm, give him suggestions like take deep breaths, take breaks, slow down, try smaller chunks of the music. He doesn't want these kinds of suggestions. He just wants to get it, and he does, but the getting there is really hard for him.
I have suggested a couple times that we take a break from the lessons. I don't feel like it is going to increase his love of music or help our relationship with this kind of continued stress every week. We have talked to the teacher about it, and she has been very supportive. She is young, and understands and embraces how we learn. She is really great with Ethan in class. She takes tangents and loves the way he approaches his learning on the piano. Ethan likes to compose pieces or change pieces, and she loves this. One lesson they found all of the scales by ear, because Ethan wanted to. She closed the books, leaving her lesson plans. She was so excited by what he was doing. She lets go of technique in favour of his learning style. We feel really fortunate to have met her. I don't think it would have lasted this long without her.
But, *I* still want to stop the lessons for now. And, Ethan does not. He really doesn't. He gets upset when I suggest it. I don't know what to do. I don't want to stop, myself, because he likes us doing this together. I think he would feel like I was walking away from him, or giving up on him. I don't want to do that.
Does anyone have experience with their kids having a really hard time with new challenges of their choosing? What did you do to help them? Like I said, we see this in new video games, new levels in games he knows, new songs, wanting to draw a character just like the character, and many other places too. He is really hard on himself when he doesn't get things to go the way he wants them to on the first try. Always has been. He used to get so frustrated by the marbles not going down the tracks the way he had planned, or trains not meeting up on the tracks the way he had envisioned. He would stomp and cry out loudly. He seemed just devastated. Then, when he does get whatever it is, he is thrilled.
We've watched "Meet the Robinsons" a few times, and talked about celebrating mistakes. We've read about mistakes that have become inventions. We've talked about Thomas Edison inventing 1000 or so lightbulbs before he made the one that finally worked. He loves these stories, but can't seem to apply this idea to his own mistakes. He is really kind and encouraging when I make mistakes, but really hard on himself. That is so hard for me. I wish he would be this kind to himself.
Any suggestions or questions welcome! Thanks.
Karen.
mitrisue
--- In [email protected], "Karen" <semajrak@...> wrote:
What I'm working on now is paying close attention when the frustration happens, staying close, being available, but not trying to fix it unless the fix feels non-intrusive and flows smoothly. Dmitri has a sort of force field around him when the frustrations erupt. If I barge into that in fix-it/end-it mode, it escalates.
The calmer I am, the more okay I am with his expressing extreme frustration, the more space he has to get over it. I aim for creating a low-pressure zone around him to ease him through it. For us, this means physical closeness that still gives him space, little to no speaking at first, with bigger windows for talking/touching as the feelings subside.
Julie
> Does anyone have experience with their kids having a really hardYes, Mitri is like this. I figured out that something that made the situation hard for all of us was my being disturbed by his reaction. I tried to help from a place of wanting to help him, but also from a place of "I've got to stop or alter his reaction or I won't have peace."
> time with new challenges of their choosing? What did you do to help
> them?
What I'm working on now is paying close attention when the frustration happens, staying close, being available, but not trying to fix it unless the fix feels non-intrusive and flows smoothly. Dmitri has a sort of force field around him when the frustrations erupt. If I barge into that in fix-it/end-it mode, it escalates.
The calmer I am, the more okay I am with his expressing extreme frustration, the more space he has to get over it. I aim for creating a low-pressure zone around him to ease him through it. For us, this means physical closeness that still gives him space, little to no speaking at first, with bigger windows for talking/touching as the feelings subside.
Julie
Joyce Fetteroll
On Nov 14, 2011, at 11:39 AM, Karen wrote:
he's doing seems to be his reaction (for now) to frustration and
you're trying to get him to change.
Help him, yes, as you're doing. *Offer* techniques that he might use.
(Don't pressure him to use them. That would be the bad kind of
stress.) It's up to him to choose them. If you back off, he's more
likely to try what he's already heard you repeat many times.
Don't try to fix him. Do offer support for what he wants to push
himself through.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I don't feel like it is going to increase his love of music or helpBut *he's* making the choice to do what you're seeing as stress. What
> our relationship with this kind of continued stress every week.
he's doing seems to be his reaction (for now) to frustration and
you're trying to get him to change.
Help him, yes, as you're doing. *Offer* techniques that he might use.
(Don't pressure him to use them. That would be the bad kind of
stress.) It's up to him to choose them. If you back off, he's more
likely to try what he's already heard you repeat many times.
Don't try to fix him. Do offer support for what he wants to push
himself through.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
NCMama
=-=He wants to get it to the point that he likes right away, and it so frustrated by the slow process of learning in the beginning, to the point where he dreads the beginning. He cries, and claims he will never get it, although he always does. He does this with video games too. He has a hard time with early challenges, and wants to get things right off the bat. He doesn't want to quit, but he doesn't like the early process. I try to stay calm, give him suggestions like take deep breaths, take breaks, slow down, try smaller chunks of the music. He doesn't want these kinds of suggestions. He just wants to get it, and he does, but the getting there is really hard for him. <snip>
I am a quiet, peaceful person, and I heard his "I HATE this game!! I NEVER want to play it again!" as something that needed to be fixed. It didn't! He would yell, get it out of his system, and buckle down to play again. I tried offering to look up player's guides, videos, etc. but he would get really annoyed by my offering! So I learned to sit with him, and let him be how he needed to be to process things, and STOP offering solutions - until he was calm, at least. I might murmur things like, "That sounds really hard!", and he was amenable to that.
It was good practice for me to not be knocked off my center - I would sit and breathe, and find calm within myself, so I could be calm for him. At 12 (13 soon) he rarely yells like that any more - I can't remember the last time. He uses the tools I helped him find - breathing deeply, closing his eyes for a moment. He grew into using those things.
I wouldn't say he "didn't like" the early process. It was hard, but the value of learning was enough for him to stick with it, despite his frustration.
And hey - in response to the Tiger Mom post - I never had to FORCE him to stick with it! It was of his choosing, even though it was difficult. This is exactly the point people are making - unschoolers DO choose to do hard things, without being forced or reminded or coerced. Let your soon keep choosing to do hard things!
I got to a point with Seth that I heard his frustration as evidence of a strong, determined person, and I made peace with it. My peace aided his peace. Fighting against it, even in my mind, seemed to make his frustration worse.
Caren
> Does anyone have experience with their kids having a really hard time with new challenges of their choosing? What did you do to help them?=-=I came to understand that expressing frustration (sometimes loudly!) was part of how Seth dealt with learning hard things. Early on, I thought that something was *wrong*, because he seemed so distressed! He *was* so distressed! But, once I stopped trying to get him to respond the way I thought he *should*, and I made peace with HOW he was responding, I was much calmer.
I am a quiet, peaceful person, and I heard his "I HATE this game!! I NEVER want to play it again!" as something that needed to be fixed. It didn't! He would yell, get it out of his system, and buckle down to play again. I tried offering to look up player's guides, videos, etc. but he would get really annoyed by my offering! So I learned to sit with him, and let him be how he needed to be to process things, and STOP offering solutions - until he was calm, at least. I might murmur things like, "That sounds really hard!", and he was amenable to that.
It was good practice for me to not be knocked off my center - I would sit and breathe, and find calm within myself, so I could be calm for him. At 12 (13 soon) he rarely yells like that any more - I can't remember the last time. He uses the tools I helped him find - breathing deeply, closing his eyes for a moment. He grew into using those things.
I wouldn't say he "didn't like" the early process. It was hard, but the value of learning was enough for him to stick with it, despite his frustration.
And hey - in response to the Tiger Mom post - I never had to FORCE him to stick with it! It was of his choosing, even though it was difficult. This is exactly the point people are making - unschoolers DO choose to do hard things, without being forced or reminded or coerced. Let your soon keep choosing to do hard things!
I got to a point with Seth that I heard his frustration as evidence of a strong, determined person, and I made peace with it. My peace aided his peace. Fighting against it, even in my mind, seemed to make his frustration worse.
Caren
Sandra Dodd
-=-But, *I* still want to stop the lessons for now. And, Ethan does not. He really doesn't. He gets upset when I suggest it. I don't know what to do. I don't want to stop, myself, because he likes us doing this together. I think he would feel like I was walking away from him, or giving up on him. I don't want to do that. -=-
I would tell him that I didn't want to continue as things were. If he wants you to continue, he needs to find a way to breathe through that frustration and not say everything he feels, and find ways to calm himself.
That's not unreasonable. Everyone needs to learn to be calm (except those whose biochemistry renders them naturally calm).
-=- He used to get so frustrated by the marbles not going down the tracks the way he had planned, or trains not meeting up on the tracks the way he had envisioned. He would stomp and cry out loudly. He seemed just devastated. Then, when he does get whatever it is, he is thrilled. -=-
Each person's capacity for sorrow seems matched by their capacity for excitement. Those who are in the middle are kind of lucky--never very upset or scared; never very exuberant. Talk to him about that. Use examples of people you know, some who are even-keeled and some who are excitable. Some people's emotions come SUDDENLY, in half a second they can be full of adrenaline. Some people can dissipate that easily, and others can't. It's good for him to know how to calm himself. It could keep him out of jail. Seriously. There are friendships destroyed, marriages ended, because one of the people felt it was okay to act on his or her sudden emotions, and hadn't learned to control them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I would tell him that I didn't want to continue as things were. If he wants you to continue, he needs to find a way to breathe through that frustration and not say everything he feels, and find ways to calm himself.
That's not unreasonable. Everyone needs to learn to be calm (except those whose biochemistry renders them naturally calm).
-=- He used to get so frustrated by the marbles not going down the tracks the way he had planned, or trains not meeting up on the tracks the way he had envisioned. He would stomp and cry out loudly. He seemed just devastated. Then, when he does get whatever it is, he is thrilled. -=-
Each person's capacity for sorrow seems matched by their capacity for excitement. Those who are in the middle are kind of lucky--never very upset or scared; never very exuberant. Talk to him about that. Use examples of people you know, some who are even-keeled and some who are excitable. Some people's emotions come SUDDENLY, in half a second they can be full of adrenaline. Some people can dissipate that easily, and others can't. It's good for him to know how to calm himself. It could keep him out of jail. Seriously. There are friendships destroyed, marriages ended, because one of the people felt it was okay to act on his or her sudden emotions, and hadn't learned to control them.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I got to a point with Seth that I heard his frustration as evidence of a strong, determined person, and I made peace with it. My peace aided his peace. Fighting against it, even in my mind, seemed to make his frustration worse.-=-
The parent's peace does add peace to the situation, and sets an example.
But I have seen some parents allow (encourage, enable, applaud) some horribly anti-social, anti-self-benefiting behavior and say "Well we're unschoolers!"
Unschoolers live in the world. Parents should help their children live in the world in thoughtful ways.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The parent's peace does add peace to the situation, and sets an example.
But I have seen some parents allow (encourage, enable, applaud) some horribly anti-social, anti-self-benefiting behavior and say "Well we're unschoolers!"
Unschoolers live in the world. Parents should help their children live in the world in thoughtful ways.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
::--:: The parent's peace does add peace to the situation, and sets an example.
But I have seen some parents allow (encourage, enable, applaud) some horribly anti-social, anti-self-benefiting behavior and say "Well we're unschoolers!"
Unschoolers live in the world. Parents should help their children live in the world in thoughtful ways. ::--::
My 5 year old goes from calm to screaming when she feels disappointment or frustration or failure or when she loses a game...
My 5 year old had a reunion for the preschool she attended with respective families. After it was over and we were outside chit-chatting and playing with other families, my 5 year old was screaming at her father, "I hate you!"
Our family officially withdrew from school last week, but have been dabbling with un/homeschooling this school year thus far (my daughter had attended less than half of her classes).
What I have learned is that my daughter was exceedingly good at social niceties while in school. What she was really feeling and trying to process simmered underneath. Only since she and I have reconnected and been rebuilding our relationship by spending connected time together have I been able to recognize this.
One of the other moms at the reunion commented shocked that my daughter would behave that way since she had always otherwise appeared so pleasant and together.
I don't see my daughter's outburst as something I want to encourage, but I see it as part of a process of her getting her feelings expressed as opposed to her always stuffing them instead. Gratefully, since I have been rebuilding my relationship with her, I was able to remove her from the situation and speak with her calmly about what was happening for her. She was told by one of the other kids that two of the others were going to have a playdate and she wanted to join them. I explained that we had to be invited to their house and it was impolite to invite oneself over. After my daughter had calmed down, I mentioned to the other parents that my daughter did not want the party to end. I felt that if there were an opportunity to be invited, it would have been offered at that point.
I have been able to discuss with my 5 year old why she thinks she says such things. She says that she doesn't know why. I've asked her to consider what a beter way to deal with her feelings would be. She agrees with me that screaming at people that she hates them is not the best response. It's a beginning...
Ceci
But I have seen some parents allow (encourage, enable, applaud) some horribly anti-social, anti-self-benefiting behavior and say "Well we're unschoolers!"
Unschoolers live in the world. Parents should help their children live in the world in thoughtful ways. ::--::
My 5 year old goes from calm to screaming when she feels disappointment or frustration or failure or when she loses a game...
My 5 year old had a reunion for the preschool she attended with respective families. After it was over and we were outside chit-chatting and playing with other families, my 5 year old was screaming at her father, "I hate you!"
Our family officially withdrew from school last week, but have been dabbling with un/homeschooling this school year thus far (my daughter had attended less than half of her classes).
What I have learned is that my daughter was exceedingly good at social niceties while in school. What she was really feeling and trying to process simmered underneath. Only since she and I have reconnected and been rebuilding our relationship by spending connected time together have I been able to recognize this.
One of the other moms at the reunion commented shocked that my daughter would behave that way since she had always otherwise appeared so pleasant and together.
I don't see my daughter's outburst as something I want to encourage, but I see it as part of a process of her getting her feelings expressed as opposed to her always stuffing them instead. Gratefully, since I have been rebuilding my relationship with her, I was able to remove her from the situation and speak with her calmly about what was happening for her. She was told by one of the other kids that two of the others were going to have a playdate and she wanted to join them. I explained that we had to be invited to their house and it was impolite to invite oneself over. After my daughter had calmed down, I mentioned to the other parents that my daughter did not want the party to end. I felt that if there were an opportunity to be invited, it would have been offered at that point.
I have been able to discuss with my 5 year old why she thinks she says such things. She says that she doesn't know why. I've asked her to consider what a beter way to deal with her feelings would be. She agrees with me that screaming at people that she hates them is not the best response. It's a beginning...
Ceci
Meredith
"Karen" <semajrak@...> wrote:
Morgan will get very upset with games or things she's writing or drawing or programs she's creating if she starts to really struggle or feel like she can't do what she wants Right Now! She doesn't want help. She doesn't even want to be reassured. She needs to be frustrated and maybe cry, walk away from what she's doing and decide whether or not to go back after she's calm again - but she doesn't need Me to tell her that, either!
What I've learned to do is be quietly supportive. I'll make one brief comment like "yeah, frustrating" and leave it at that - anything else is likely to make things worse. It's Her process.
Something I do to console myself when my little girl is frustrated and doesn't want my help, is to think "So There! to everyone who thinks kids need to be pushed to do things that are difficult!" My kids push themselves to do difficult things for reasons of their own. It's just hard to watch, sometimes.
---Meredith
>> Does anyone have experience with their kids having a really hard time with new challenges of their choosing? What did you do to help them?********************
Morgan will get very upset with games or things she's writing or drawing or programs she's creating if she starts to really struggle or feel like she can't do what she wants Right Now! She doesn't want help. She doesn't even want to be reassured. She needs to be frustrated and maybe cry, walk away from what she's doing and decide whether or not to go back after she's calm again - but she doesn't need Me to tell her that, either!
What I've learned to do is be quietly supportive. I'll make one brief comment like "yeah, frustrating" and leave it at that - anything else is likely to make things worse. It's Her process.
Something I do to console myself when my little girl is frustrated and doesn't want my help, is to think "So There! to everyone who thinks kids need to be pushed to do things that are difficult!" My kids push themselves to do difficult things for reasons of their own. It's just hard to watch, sometimes.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-My 5 year old had a reunion for the preschool she attended with respective families. After it was over and we were outside chit-chatting and playing with other families, my 5 year old was screaming at her father, "I hate you!"-=-
But you didn't tell us what her father had done before she screamed. There's usually something significant before the reported screaming or hitting or whatever.
-=-Our family officially withdrew from school last week, but have been dabbling with un/homeschooling this school year thus far (my daughter had attended less than half of her classes).-=-
If you don't deschool (starting now that she's home) you won't get past that stage, so please don't "count" your "dabbling."
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
-=-I don't see my daughter's outburst as something I want to encourage, but I see it as part of a process of her getting her feelings expressed as opposed to her always stuffing them instead. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/balance
There are an infinite number of points between those extremes.
-=-I have been able to discuss with my 5 year old why she thinks she says such things. She says that she doesn't know why. I've asked her to consider what a beter way to deal with her feelings would be. She agrees with me that screaming at people that she hates them is not the best response. It's a beginning...-=-
It's not a good beginning. It's another extreme.
Rather than asking her why she says things (she's five; even adults rarely know, if they're used to acting without thinking first), maybe make a couple of recommendations, without asking her to agree or to acknowledge that she even heard you. Like "Maybe next time you could take a deep breath and say it without yelling," or "maybe it's better sometimes not to say anything." Without looking at her, without it being "an exchange" or anything but a dropped clue.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
http://sandradodd.com/truck
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
But you didn't tell us what her father had done before she screamed. There's usually something significant before the reported screaming or hitting or whatever.
-=-Our family officially withdrew from school last week, but have been dabbling with un/homeschooling this school year thus far (my daughter had attended less than half of her classes).-=-
If you don't deschool (starting now that she's home) you won't get past that stage, so please don't "count" your "dabbling."
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
-=-I don't see my daughter's outburst as something I want to encourage, but I see it as part of a process of her getting her feelings expressed as opposed to her always stuffing them instead. -=-
http://sandradodd.com/balance
There are an infinite number of points between those extremes.
-=-I have been able to discuss with my 5 year old why she thinks she says such things. She says that she doesn't know why. I've asked her to consider what a beter way to deal with her feelings would be. She agrees with me that screaming at people that she hates them is not the best response. It's a beginning...-=-
It's not a good beginning. It's another extreme.
Rather than asking her why she says things (she's five; even adults rarely know, if they're used to acting without thinking first), maybe make a couple of recommendations, without asking her to agree or to acknowledge that she even heard you. Like "Maybe next time you could take a deep breath and say it without yelling," or "maybe it's better sometimes not to say anything." Without looking at her, without it being "an exchange" or anything but a dropped clue.
http://sandradodd.com/parentingpeacefully
http://sandradodd.com/truck
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
> -=-I don't see my daughter's outburst as something I want to encourage, but I see it as part of a process of her getting her feelings expressed as opposed to her always stuffing them instead. -=-From Sandra's balance page:
>
> ---- http://sandradodd.com/balance
>
> There are an infinite number of points between those extremes. ----
>
/// New unschoolers can feel that they're moving between extremes, and it can take a while to settle where the whole family is content. Sometimes it takes years, but there are ways to feel better in the meantime. ///
I am challenged to learn what will improve my daughter's ability to manage her outbursts. I wonder if my own moving between extremes is reflected in my daughter's...
I have made suggestions to my daughter (after she has calmed down) to take a deep breath, consider what it is she wants and then asking for it rather than saying what she dislikes. I have also told her that it really embarasses her father and it makes her look bad, too. She has not tried any of the things I've suggested. My only success has been in not taking her outbursts personally while still being present and empathetic.
I am not sure what is at work here for her as I tend towards getting unusually calm in times of stress. My husband can have his versions of outbursts like our 5 year old. He usually calms down after some time and will apologize. Our 5 year old often feels ashamed for her outbursts and does not like apologizing.
In general, her outbursts tend to be toward her father, usually in response to him setting a limit or otherwise telling her she can't have or do something she wants. I've sent him the text from Joyce's page re: children saying, "I hate you!". I've suggested to my husband to consider that she does not necessarily mean what she says, but that she is having an extreme emotion and can't put into words what she is wanting. I've suggested that my husband needs to consider our daughter's feelings and help come up with ways of addressing her needs along with his...
I definitely feel like a wobbly infant feeling her standing feet...falling is often...
Ceci
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
kristi_beguin
>>>I am challenged to learn what will improve my daughter's ability to manage her outbursts.<<<Sandra provided you with a most excellent suggestion:
>>>make a couple of recommendations, without asking her to agree or to acknowledge that she even heard you. Like "Maybe next time you could take a deep breath and say it without yelling," or "maybe it's better sometimes not to say anything." Without looking at her, without it being "an exchange" or anything but a dropped clue.<<<Dropped clues have been the key for helping my daughters, without it seeming like I'm "making suggestions," which are rarely appreciated, and often make them feel embarrassed.
>>>I have made suggestions to my daughter (after she has calmed down) to take a deep breath, consider what it is she wants and then asking for it rather than saying what she dislikes. I have also told her that it really embarasses her father and it makes her look bad, too. She has not tried any of the things I've suggested.<<<You've mentioned this kind of thing before, that you have talks with your daughter AFTER the fact. Too much after the fact talk is not likely to help her when she needs it the most. It's possible she doesn't even remember what you've told her, especially if it's wrapped up in long talks and your own expectations of what she should do when she gets upset. Instead of making suggestions and expecting her to remember the ideas you've given her when she's calm, drop a hint at the moment she needs it, and like Sandra said, WITHOUT it being an exchange, or a lecture.
>>>I am not sure what is at work here for her as I tend towards getting unusually calm in times of stress.<<<This reminded me of something my oldest daughter, who is 9, just recently clued in on that I do that she does not like. When we have guests or friends over, I have recently tended to get even more calm when I speak with her regarding something that is being disruptive to the guests, for instance cranking up the music to uncomfortable levels. This happened several times over the weekend. At some point, I noticed my voice getting lower and slower than normal. She said, "I hate when you talk to me like that." Clearly I was not being helpful. In fact, after I noticed how I sounded, I was appalled at how gross it came across. The next time it occurred, I made a point to say in my normal tone of voice and without any eye contact, "That hurts people's ears," and she turned it down right away.
"I've suggested to my husband to consider..."
"I've suggested that my husband needs to consider..."
"I was able to speak with her calmly about what was happening for her..."
"I explained that..."
"I mentioned ..."
"I felt that..."
"I have been able to discuss with her..."
"I've asked her to consider..."
"I have made suggestions to my daughter..."
"I have also told her that..."
All those were from two posts. Your daughter is 5. She might seem big and mature and capable of understanding, but that is a lot of suggesting and telling and explaining on your part that is probably ending up as background noise by both your daughter and your husband.
Trim it down to a word or simple phrase, in the moment that she needs it. Have you ever read "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen, and Listen so Kids Will Talk," by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish?
http://www.amazon.com/How-Talk-Kids-Will-Listen/dp/0380811960
It's loaded with ideas for changing lengthy suggestions to a single word or a short phrase. I just pulled out my copy the other day, and was filled up with wonderful ideas.
catfish_friend
> (()) Dropped clues have been the key for helping my daughters, without it seeming like I'm "making suggestions," which are rarely appreciated, and often make them feel embarrassed. (())Thanks, Kristi. This helps me understand how I might make my daughter feel embarrassed by my suggestions.
(()) You've mentioned this kind of thing before, that you have talks with your daughter AFTER the fact. Too much after the fact talk is not likely to help her when she needs it the most. (())
I have been talking to her after because she goes from quiet to screaming or crying really loudly in a flash. In the very loud moment of distress, she literally wouldn't hear me. I suppose I could hand signal to her to quiet down or cover my ears (which I sometimes need to do if she's right next to me). Am I understanding your suggestion?
Ultimately, I think our family has to shift more towards being empathetic of each other's needs along with understanding priorities. I think that would minimize or eliminate most of the loud outbursts. But, until we get there, I do think I need to better guide my five year old to manage her loud expressions...
I will check out the "How to talk..." book. It's been on my to-do list for a couple of years now.
Thanks Sandra, too, for so many great links. I'm going to go read, try, wait and watch...
Ceci
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I have been talking to her after because she goes from quiet to screaming or crying really loudly in a flash. In the very loud moment of distress, she literally wouldn't hear me. I suppose I could hand signal to her to quiet down or cover my ears (which I sometimes need to do if she's right next to me). Am I understanding your suggestion?-=-
I don't think that was the suggestion.
It seems you're lecturing, explaining, "conversing" way too much and too long (from your accounts). Too many words, not enough mindfulness. Try to say what you want to say in six or eight words. Think clearly in advance, rather than nattering on as long as you want to talk, with a summary.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I don't think that was the suggestion.
It seems you're lecturing, explaining, "conversing" way too much and too long (from your accounts). Too many words, not enough mindfulness. Try to say what you want to say in six or eight words. Think clearly in advance, rather than nattering on as long as you want to talk, with a summary.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
It doesn't really do any good to talk "at" someone. If a child is ready and
able to act on your suggestions, they won't need explanations, just a quick
suggestion and they don't need you to repeat it. If they aren't ready and
able to act on your suggestions, all the explaining and justifying in the
world won't make them ready or willing. And it is truly counterproductive
to repeat oneself as it sort of "trains" the child to stop listening. If
you've told them once and it wasn't helpful, it isn't likely to be helpful
the next time or the next. Wait some time, until the child has grown up
some, before offering the same suggestion again.
My kids really value my suggestions. I'm amazed at how much! They are 20,
24, and 26 and they ask for my input a lot - almost daily. They even will
call and tell me how they did respond to something and ask for my
"analysis" - they want to know if they could have done something
different/better/more/less/etc.
I know, looking back, how this happened. It is because I was very careful
about offering advice. I would offer just a little tidbit - often just a
word or two, to indicate that, indeed, I did HAVE some advice to offer. But
I didn't just give it, wanted or not. As they got older, I flat out asked,
"Do you want ideas?" And they fairly often would say, "Not now." And I
would really truly and outwardly calmly - refrain. This was not easy for
me. It got easier over the years. And, they more and more often wanted my
input, over the years.
This isn't to say that I sat around, helpless, while my kid behaved badly.
I protected her from further embarrassment (because she was, in fact,
embarrassed by her own out-of-controlness) by removing her from being
around other people. If she was screaming mean things at someone, I didn't
just pretend that it was all fine and dandy and acceptable behavior. I took
it seriously and behaved appropriately, myself. My daughter didn't hit or
kick or do anything physical - it was all words. So I got her out of
earshot as fast as possible. Often, if she could get away from people for a
while, she could calm herself. If she couldn't recover her composure in a
reasonable time, I'd take her home.
I was aware of situations that would overwhelm her. I kept her out of them
if possible. I knew that too many hours in a group of other kids would wear
her out, emotionally, while my other kids were still having a great time.
So I'd take her with me to run an errand while another mom watched my other
kids. I'd ask her to go for a walk with me - take her out of the park-day
group for a few minutes. I'd give her breaks, sometimes just go take her a
bottle of water or a snack to give her a reason to step away from the group
for a couple of minutes.
More explosive kids are a challenge to our parenting skills, for sure. But
I learned SO much about human nature and my own self and I wouldn't trade
those years for anything. My used-to-be-explosive kid is an intense and
passionate, but also thoughtful and clear-headed, 24-year-old. She's
delightful. People love her. She has lots of friends. She's very involved
in leadership in a lot of different activities and she is now the one
others turn to for solution-oriented problem solving because she is good at
it. I am amazed when she tells me about how she's working with other people
in various groups to resolve conflicts.
-pam
able to act on your suggestions, they won't need explanations, just a quick
suggestion and they don't need you to repeat it. If they aren't ready and
able to act on your suggestions, all the explaining and justifying in the
world won't make them ready or willing. And it is truly counterproductive
to repeat oneself as it sort of "trains" the child to stop listening. If
you've told them once and it wasn't helpful, it isn't likely to be helpful
the next time or the next. Wait some time, until the child has grown up
some, before offering the same suggestion again.
My kids really value my suggestions. I'm amazed at how much! They are 20,
24, and 26 and they ask for my input a lot - almost daily. They even will
call and tell me how they did respond to something and ask for my
"analysis" - they want to know if they could have done something
different/better/more/less/etc.
I know, looking back, how this happened. It is because I was very careful
about offering advice. I would offer just a little tidbit - often just a
word or two, to indicate that, indeed, I did HAVE some advice to offer. But
I didn't just give it, wanted or not. As they got older, I flat out asked,
"Do you want ideas?" And they fairly often would say, "Not now." And I
would really truly and outwardly calmly - refrain. This was not easy for
me. It got easier over the years. And, they more and more often wanted my
input, over the years.
This isn't to say that I sat around, helpless, while my kid behaved badly.
I protected her from further embarrassment (because she was, in fact,
embarrassed by her own out-of-controlness) by removing her from being
around other people. If she was screaming mean things at someone, I didn't
just pretend that it was all fine and dandy and acceptable behavior. I took
it seriously and behaved appropriately, myself. My daughter didn't hit or
kick or do anything physical - it was all words. So I got her out of
earshot as fast as possible. Often, if she could get away from people for a
while, she could calm herself. If she couldn't recover her composure in a
reasonable time, I'd take her home.
I was aware of situations that would overwhelm her. I kept her out of them
if possible. I knew that too many hours in a group of other kids would wear
her out, emotionally, while my other kids were still having a great time.
So I'd take her with me to run an errand while another mom watched my other
kids. I'd ask her to go for a walk with me - take her out of the park-day
group for a few minutes. I'd give her breaks, sometimes just go take her a
bottle of water or a snack to give her a reason to step away from the group
for a couple of minutes.
More explosive kids are a challenge to our parenting skills, for sure. But
I learned SO much about human nature and my own self and I wouldn't trade
those years for anything. My used-to-be-explosive kid is an intense and
passionate, but also thoughtful and clear-headed, 24-year-old. She's
delightful. People love her. She has lots of friends. She's very involved
in leadership in a lot of different activities and she is now the one
others turn to for solution-oriented problem solving because she is good at
it. I am amazed when she tells me about how she's working with other people
in various groups to resolve conflicts.
-pam
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:05 AM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> -=-I have been talking to her after because she goes from quiet to
> screaming or crying really loudly in a flash. In the very loud moment of
> distress, she literally wouldn't hear me. I suppose I could hand signal to
> her to quiet down or cover my ears (which I sometimes need to do if she's
> right next to me). Am I understanding your suggestion?-=-
>
> I don't think that was the suggestion.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Karen
> But *he's* making the choice to do what you're seeing as stress. WhatI want to say thanks again to everyone who shared their experiences. It was very helpful.
> he's doing seems to be his reaction (for now) to frustration and
> you're trying to get him to change.
>
> Help him, yes, as you're doing. *Offer* techniques that he might use.
> (Don't pressure him to use them. That would be the bad kind of
> stress.) It's up to him to choose them. If you back off, he's more
> likely to try what he's already heard you repeat many times.
>
> Don't try to fix him. Do offer support for what he wants to push
> himself through.
I also want to share a nice update. Yesterday was Ethan's birthday. He turned nine. As well, his piano teacher held a music share yesterday, where all of her students got together talked about what they were learning, and played one or two pieces. We were told about the music share a of couple weeks ago. My mind automatically went to, "Oh, too bad, that's on Ethan's birthday. We won't be able to make it." I even said something along that line to his teacher. Ethan, however, said he would think about whether or not he wanted to go, and the following week he surprised us both by saying he would really like to be there.
Well, it was a lovely time. At the end of the performances, our teacher announced that it was Ethan's birthday, and that she was so happy he decided to spend part of his birthday with everyone at the share. She played happy birthday, and the whole room sang along - except me...I was fighting tears. We gathered outside for drinks and cookies afterward. Quite a few people said they never could have made their child attend on their birthday. I just said it was his choice. I don't think they believed me.
Sandra Dodd
-=-At the end of the performances, our teacher announced that it was Ethan's birthday, and that she was so happy he decided to spend part of his birthday with everyone at the share. She played happy birthday, and the whole room sang along - except me...I was fighting tears. We gathered outside for drinks and cookies afterward. Quite a few people said they never could have made their child attend on their birthday. I just said it was his choice. I don't think they believed me. -=-
I finally got used to people being surprised my kids were so cool with younger kids, adults, sharing... :-)
That was a very sweet story.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I finally got used to people being surprised my kids were so cool with younger kids, adults, sharing... :-)
That was a very sweet story.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]