Lovehome

Hi all! I'm a quiet reader 'always learning' from Illinois. Hi Deborah, where are you?

Hi Sandra, we did a little e-mail chat a while back. I feel like I need to add my two cents worth finally. Okay, more than two cents, please to forgive. All of you usually manage to articulate my feelings quite well, so I have avoided being redundant. Lately, the concept of 'after unschooling' has been coming up, I think more answers are needed.

I'd like to throw out some ideas and reactions to current threads for discussion.

I have 2 dss: Ben and Dan, graduated and survivors of ps, both in college pursuing their own interests, at last.

I have been homeschooling my dd for three years. She is now 16. I have observed an evolution in my understanding of always learning/unschooling. I wish I had found this educational philosophy when all my kids were young. I could have saved us all a lot of anguish and 6:00 mornings.

I, like Pat and others, started with 'school at home' and gradually gave up my preconceived notions of how that was going to happen over the years, and have come around to a life of shared learning with my daughter.

My concerns are about the pursuit of concentrated knowledge and parental input. For example, Dan studied the violin for years and Katherine, my girl, the cello. Both wanted to quit at times, both needed to be encouraged to practice. If I had only considered their feelings, they would never have undergone all the effort, sweat and painful muscle development necessary to play their instruments well. We changed instructors at times and added or subtracted from their commitment levels as well, but they would not be able to play now for their own enjoyment or for performance if I hadn't pushed a little.

I feel this experience translates to other areas as well, but perhaps I'm still tied to a school mentality.

I think Pat deserves to be congratulated for sticking in there. She wanted to throw in the towel a while back and has kept with it. IMO Pat, you're doing fine. Yes, you need to follow your own pursuits and become more comfortable w/ clutter and try to understand the inherent value in all that your children do. But IMO, you are donating time and interest and learning effort to adapt your life to your children's needs, and conversely, they need to also contribute to meeting your needs: relief from chaos and adding to a variety of experience for the family as a whole.

Questions to ask:

What are the kids gaining from prolonged exposure to computer games?

My oldest ds, Ben, is building a whole career around his interests in the advance of computer graphics engines, driven by incessant game playing and awe at the advances in the technology involved. He's studying art and animation and now teaching himself computer programming languages, and creating a whole new game for the market.

Do your kids have long term plans and goals?

Spontaneous learning and living in the present are the norm at our house, but my daughter has huge dreams(making her own films, publishing her books, owning a horse ranch/ history learning center/retirement home /nature preserve, and continuing to play her cello and pursuing her art interests of painting and drawing) and will need college courses and probably a degree to realize many of them. We spent years discovering the best ways for her to learn, healing the wounds of public school, and filling in the gaps in her understanding. Letting your kids deschool is vital, but so is helping them prepare for course work needed to successfully attain their ideal life.

What skills do your kids need to improve on to make their dreams a reality?

Assuming that your kids will suddenly discover and teach themselves all they need to know at 16 to be successful in college is risky IMO. Big dreams require some planning. Being highly skilled demands discipline. Success in college or having any job requires the ability to schedule your time and being able to show up to do work even when you don't feel like it.

Some of our kids will be the veterinarians of tomorrow. They will love making sick animals well--they will need lots of science courses. The computer gamer of today may want to be the engineer of tomorrow. He will need to know long division. Environmentally healthy housing designers will probably need an architectural degree to become employed to build the houses, to get paid and have a life and their own family to unschool. Some of our kids, I'm convinced, won't need college or any advanced planning and can make a great life living in the moment always. Some will want law school or to be ballerinas.

How can you help?

I am not advocating ps or curriculum plans for your kid's days, but looking at their future needs of knowing and explaining what their dreams will entail to be realized, may guide them in their daily endeavors somewhat. The methods of learning the needed knowledge are limited only by the imagination of parents and children. These suggestions are strictly for the older set: 13 and up.

Please help me to understand your viewpoints about this. I don't see any way around the planning and preparation stages for lots of lifestyle, career choices.

There are no days in life so memorable as those which vibrated to some stroke of the imagination. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson

Causing trouble and throwing wrenches into the mix.

Collette





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/2002 1:01:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
lovehome@... writes:
>>>> but my daughter has huge dreams(making her own films, publishing her
> books, owning a horse ranch/ history learning center/retirement home
> /nature preserve, and continuing to play her cello and pursuing her art
> interests of painting and drawing) and will need college courses and
> probably a degree to realize many of them.
>

Well, I figure you'll get a whole bunch of responses to this post but I'll
start with this quote. From the list above, I can't find a ONE that REQUIRES
a college course, much less a diploma! Making films? Publishing books? Owning
a horse ranch? Owning a history learning center? Owning a nature preserve?
Owning a retirement home? Playing the cello? Pursuing art/painting/drawing?

She's not looking to be a doctor, lawyer, vet (because of the previous
discussion), or CEO of a major corporation---which all require college. If
she knows college is her goal, she'll naturally seek out the necessary
requirements---and maybe put together a knockout portfolio, take the SAT, and
blow them away in the interview. Many schooled kids wait until they're 16 or
17 to start putting ANY effort into making good grades to get into a "good
college"----and THOUSANDS go to college "just because" with no goal in sight
except to graduate and get a diploma.

But if her goals are more in line with unschooling---to be her own boss and
pursue her own interests (horses, art, nature, history, writing, music,
geriatrics, and film making), she certainly doesn't need college for ANY of
that! And if she decides that she will, she'll do it in her own time if given
support and encouragement (and maybe even withOUT it!<g>).

Both wanted to quit at times, both needed to be encouraged to practice. If I
had only considered their feelings, they would never have undergone all the
effort, sweat and painful muscle development necessary to play their
instruments well. We changed instructors at times and added or subtracted
from their commitment levels as well, but they would not be able to play now
for their own enjoyment or for performance if I hadn't pushed a little.

Or maybe they would have---you'll never know! Your kids certainly may not
have become such great musicians had you not pushed them; on the other hand,
they MAY have become INCREDIBLE musicians or QUIT if left to their own
devices.
But they didn't get to decide.

Ben and Dan, graduated and survivors of ps, both in college pursuing their
own interests, at last. AT LAST they're pursuing their own interests? See,
that's sad.

Assuming that your kids will suddenly discover and teach themselves all they
need to know at 16 to be successful in college is risky IMO. That's the age
when MANY kids first start "buckling down" and preparing for college.
Unschooled kids may have been doing this all along if that's where their
interests lie.

Big dreams require some planning. Being highly skilled demands discipline.
Success in college or having any job requires the ability to schedule your
time and being able to show up to do work even when you don't feel like it.
Sounds like the perfect unschooling home---it just depends on WHOSE dream it
is! A child with a dream WILL plan, and develop discipline (that's
SELF-inflicted, not parent-induced/demanded), and schedule his time, and show
up for work.

Some of our kids, I'm convinced, won't need college or any advanced planning
and can make a great life living in the moment always. Some will want law
school or to be ballerinas. Those potential lawyers and ballerinas will work
hard toward those goals because THEY want them!


Please help me to understand your viewpoints about this. I don't see any way
around the planning and preparation stages for lots of lifestyle, career
choices. Neither do I. But to think that a child will wait until the last
minute to pursue a real dream is ridiculous! I have a hard time holding
myself and my kids BACK! My husband is constantly having to rein me in
because I want to do so much YESTERDAY! Both my boys are eager to pursue
their dreams (although the 6 year old wants to be a superhero! <G>). I think
that's if it's something she really wants, she'll plan it all out---although
she may need your assistance and experience. They'll CHOSE to plan and
prepare for something important! And that dream may fall by the wayside one
day, and that's OK too.

kellyinsc





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joanna514

>
> My concerns are about the pursuit of concentrated knowledge and
parental input. For example, Dan studied the violin for years and
Katherine, my girl, the cello. Both wanted to quit at times, both
needed to be encouraged to practice. If I had only considered their
feelings, they would never have undergone all the effort, sweat and
painful muscle development necessary to play their instruments well.
We changed instructors at times and added or subtracted from their
commitment levels as well, but they would not be able to play now for
their own enjoyment or for performance if I hadn't pushed a little.
>

Are you sure about that?
Coming from and family of musicians and being married to one, I would
have to disagree.
My brother was never pushed. He was given complete freedom and now
plays music for a living. It is his life passion. He gives lessons
and writes music and performs with my dh as an acoustic duo and in 2
full bands. My dh learned to play the guitar at 18. Never had a
music lesson in his life and was discouraged many times along the
way, but kept at it. He eventually moved on to the bass and
harmonica and is considered very talented by his peers. Infact, all
of the musicians I know, have become who they are out of passion.
Many are extremely versatile, learning all kinds of instuments for
enjoyment and necessity.


> I feel this experience translates to other areas as well, but
perhaps I'm still tied to a school mentality.
>

Maybe.
I push and encourage. I'm not disparaging that. I just don't know
if it is a necessity. Passions guide. Do we as parents need to? Do
we decide what someone should be passionate about and pursue?
Do we push a little so they won't miss out?
While we're pushing in one direction are they missing out on a better
one? One that is truely from them?
Questions i have absolutely no idea of the answers.
Would i be a better person if my parents had pushed more? Would I be
screwed up? I don't know!!!
I like thinking about it though.
Joanna

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/22/02 4:20:17 PM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< But to think that a child will wait until the last
minute to pursue a real dream is ridiculous! >>

I think it could happen.
I also think it could be pulled off!!


Sandra, who specializes in last-minute

moonmeghan

<<<<--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
>
> In a message dated 4/22/02 4:20:17 PM, kbcdlovejo@a...
writes:
>
> << But to think that a child will wait until the last
> minute to pursue a real dream is ridiculous! >>
>
> I think it could happen.
> I also think it could be pulled off!!
>
>
> Sandra, who specializes in last-minute>>>>


Oh yes! I do some of my best 'work' at the last minute. When I
want to learn about something, I'm like a sponge. I can absorb
fast if I want, or need to. I'm sure there are a lot of 'last minute'
learners out there.

Meghan