Neglect (was: adults who can't read?)
Claire Darbaud
Sandra >> I want to know whether anyone else here knows of these
examples. Not by name, don't give away anything.
Meredith: ***I know of one - but I wouldn't call what the family was
doing "unschooling" so much as "letting the kids run wild while the
parents did their own thing". The thing is, They called it
unschooling. I've met other families over the years - all
"alternative" folks, because that's my "community" if you will - who
call what they do "unschooling" but it's more like "benign neglect".
***
I find the whole idea of neglect to be a very tricky one for a wannabe
unschooler like myself. Society and my upbringing has defined child
neglect (mostly) as letting kids do what they want. When I let my son
play Team Fortress 2 for hours on end, something in me is screaming
the "neglect" alarm... and yet he is engaged in it and enjoying it and
exploring and wanting more...
I offer food, I sit with him now and then. I give him a hug, watch a
mission or 2. I read and type for him when he wants to communicate
with his fellow players. Most of the time, I am in the same room,
playing with his younger sister or cleaning up, or cooking or indeed
doing my own things: reading, writing, chatting with my friends...
Sometime he gets up, he comes for a hug, tells me how excited he is
about the new weapon he just won, the success he just achieved...
It feels very good and too easy and also there is a voice inside my
head screaming "NEGLECT NEGLECT"... And when I "listen" to the
neglect alarm, it takes me right back to (a variation of) "children
need to play outside, let's go out" whether they want it or not and
we're in for a struggle (at best).
What does "neglect that calls itself unschooling" look like? How can I
tell if I am neglecting my children or just rewriting my book of
"shoulds"?
examples. Not by name, don't give away anything.
Meredith: ***I know of one - but I wouldn't call what the family was
doing "unschooling" so much as "letting the kids run wild while the
parents did their own thing". The thing is, They called it
unschooling. I've met other families over the years - all
"alternative" folks, because that's my "community" if you will - who
call what they do "unschooling" but it's more like "benign neglect".
***
I find the whole idea of neglect to be a very tricky one for a wannabe
unschooler like myself. Society and my upbringing has defined child
neglect (mostly) as letting kids do what they want. When I let my son
play Team Fortress 2 for hours on end, something in me is screaming
the "neglect" alarm... and yet he is engaged in it and enjoying it and
exploring and wanting more...
I offer food, I sit with him now and then. I give him a hug, watch a
mission or 2. I read and type for him when he wants to communicate
with his fellow players. Most of the time, I am in the same room,
playing with his younger sister or cleaning up, or cooking or indeed
doing my own things: reading, writing, chatting with my friends...
Sometime he gets up, he comes for a hug, tells me how excited he is
about the new weapon he just won, the success he just achieved...
It feels very good and too easy and also there is a voice inside my
head screaming "NEGLECT NEGLECT"... And when I "listen" to the
neglect alarm, it takes me right back to (a variation of) "children
need to play outside, let's go out" whether they want it or not and
we're in for a struggle (at best).
What does "neglect that calls itself unschooling" look like? How can I
tell if I am neglecting my children or just rewriting my book of
"shoulds"?
Sandra Dodd
To me, this sounds like "extremely attentive and involved":
-=- When I let my son
play Team Fortress 2 for hours on end, something in me is screaming
the "neglect" alarm... and yet he is engaged in it and enjoying it and
exploring and wanting more...
-=-I offer food, I sit with him now and then. I give him a hug, watch a
mission or 2. I read and type for him when he wants to communicate
with his fellow players. Most of the time, I am in the same room,
playing with his younger sister or cleaning up, or cooking or indeed
doing my own things: reading, writing, chatting with my friends...
Sometime he gets up, he comes for a hug, tells me how excited he is
about the new weapon he just won, the success he just achieved...-=-
I think of neglect as not having food in the house (something that happened when I was a kid, and to my cousins especially); not taking sick kids to doctors; hearing a child say he needs shoes because his feet hurt, and not getting him shoes; hearing a child ask to go somewhere, and blowing it off; promising to do things and not doing them; saying you'll be back to do something with them and forgetting all about it. Thinking "someday" instead of "now."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=- When I let my son
play Team Fortress 2 for hours on end, something in me is screaming
the "neglect" alarm... and yet he is engaged in it and enjoying it and
exploring and wanting more...
-=-I offer food, I sit with him now and then. I give him a hug, watch a
mission or 2. I read and type for him when he wants to communicate
with his fellow players. Most of the time, I am in the same room,
playing with his younger sister or cleaning up, or cooking or indeed
doing my own things: reading, writing, chatting with my friends...
Sometime he gets up, he comes for a hug, tells me how excited he is
about the new weapon he just won, the success he just achieved...-=-
I think of neglect as not having food in the house (something that happened when I was a kid, and to my cousins especially); not taking sick kids to doctors; hearing a child say he needs shoes because his feet hurt, and not getting him shoes; hearing a child ask to go somewhere, and blowing it off; promising to do things and not doing them; saying you'll be back to do something with them and forgetting all about it. Thinking "someday" instead of "now."
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pamela Sorooshian
On Oct 5, 2011, at 10:17 AM, Claire Darbaud wrote:
*****
> What does "neglect that calls itself unschooling" look like? How can I
> tell if I am neglecting my children or just rewriting my book of
> "shoulds"?
******
I think in the extreme it looks completely unengaged. It looks like the parent doesn't know what the child is "up to" and doesn't really care as long as the child isn't bothering her or him.
Unschooling is not neglect because parents are very very engaged. But, if parents are unaware of their kids abilities and interests, not observing their kids and thinking a lot of the time about how they can enhance their lives, then that's neglect in unschooling.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=Unschooling is not neglect because parents are very very engaged. But, if parents are unaware of their kids abilities and interests, not observing their kids and thinking a lot of the time about how they can enhance their lives, then that's neglect in unschooling. -=-
Please clarify.
You seem to be saying someone can be unschooling and still neglectful, but that unschooling is not neglect.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Please clarify.
You seem to be saying someone can be unschooling and still neglectful, but that unschooling is not neglect.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
I wrote:
**** -=Unschooling is not neglect because parents are very very engaged. But, if parents are unaware of their kids abilities and interests, not observing their kids and thinking a lot of the time about how they can enhance their lives, then that's neglect in unschooling. -=-
****
Sandra wrote:
***
Please clarify.
You seem to be saying someone can be unschooling and still neglectful, but that unschooling is not neglect.
****
People can think and say they are unschooling and be viewed by others as unschoolers, and still be neglectful, yes. They can misunderstand what unschooling really involves. I think sometimes they look at the relationships unschoolers have with their kids, and they want that, but they don't really see what it takes to get it. Or, maybe sometimes they have their own personal issues that distract them from really being fully there for their children in spite of good intentions.
People sometimes seem to get the idea that unschooling means to "leave the kids alone" and they stop there or too close to there. Yes, sometimes it might mean we WILL leave our kids alone when to do anything else would be to interrupt them in a valuable pursuit, but we're leaving them alone because we are aware and engaged and we are giving them the GIFT of not interfering. distracting, or imposing on them. And sometimes people say that leaving them alone is at least better than school. Maybe, maybe not, depending on the child and the school. But it still isn't unschooling.
Unschooling requires parents to put in a lot of energy and time and devotion to their kids. People might not realize how much because those of us who have done it for many years think of it as how we live our life, not how we "educate" our kids. But it is a thing - it is not nothing. It isn't the absence of certain things; it is the presence of things that involve parents much of the time.
-pam
**** -=Unschooling is not neglect because parents are very very engaged. But, if parents are unaware of their kids abilities and interests, not observing their kids and thinking a lot of the time about how they can enhance their lives, then that's neglect in unschooling. -=-
****
Sandra wrote:
***
Please clarify.
You seem to be saying someone can be unschooling and still neglectful, but that unschooling is not neglect.
****
People can think and say they are unschooling and be viewed by others as unschoolers, and still be neglectful, yes. They can misunderstand what unschooling really involves. I think sometimes they look at the relationships unschoolers have with their kids, and they want that, but they don't really see what it takes to get it. Or, maybe sometimes they have their own personal issues that distract them from really being fully there for their children in spite of good intentions.
People sometimes seem to get the idea that unschooling means to "leave the kids alone" and they stop there or too close to there. Yes, sometimes it might mean we WILL leave our kids alone when to do anything else would be to interrupt them in a valuable pursuit, but we're leaving them alone because we are aware and engaged and we are giving them the GIFT of not interfering. distracting, or imposing on them. And sometimes people say that leaving them alone is at least better than school. Maybe, maybe not, depending on the child and the school. But it still isn't unschooling.
Unschooling requires parents to put in a lot of energy and time and devotion to their kids. People might not realize how much because those of us who have done it for many years think of it as how we live our life, not how we "educate" our kids. But it is a thing - it is not nothing. It isn't the absence of certain things; it is the presence of things that involve parents much of the time.
-pam
Jenny Cyphers
***What does "neglect that calls itself unschooling" look like? How can I
tell if I am neglecting my children or just rewriting my book of
"shoulds"?***
I think that in regards to unschooling, it should be thought of in terms of "educational" neglect. To me that would mean meeting my state standards, interpreting the law and paying attention to what and how my kids are learning. If a parent wants to unschool they should know the laws where they live, they should be able to interpret what they do into educationalese. To be able to do that you need to see that a child is learning, you need to be able to see the learning in the everyday and the bits of extras that you do.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
tell if I am neglecting my children or just rewriting my book of
"shoulds"?***
I think that in regards to unschooling, it should be thought of in terms of "educational" neglect. To me that would mean meeting my state standards, interpreting the law and paying attention to what and how my kids are learning. If a parent wants to unschool they should know the laws where they live, they should be able to interpret what they do into educationalese. To be able to do that you need to see that a child is learning, you need to be able to see the learning in the everyday and the bits of extras that you do.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I think that in regards to unschooling, it should be thought of in terms of "educational" neglect. To me that would mean meeting my state standards,***
Oh geez! I got called away in the middle of writing that... I mean, to make unschooling NOT neglectful it means... (the rest of what I wrote)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Oh geez! I got called away in the middle of writing that... I mean, to make unschooling NOT neglectful it means... (the rest of what I wrote)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
*I think that in regards to unschooling, it should be thought of in terms of "educational" neglect.-=-
I agree, I guess.
When we think of unschooling as potentially being neglectful, or how unschoolers could be neglectful instead of "just unschooling," maybe we should be looking at what the children are or aren't learning.
But then comes the Next Layer: Radical Unschooling. If parents consider that their children are learning about food, hygiene, sleep needs, sharing, interpersonal relationships and all that in natural ways and the parents aren't helping them, then it can turn to personal neglect, child neglect, the stuff people lose their children about.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I agree, I guess.
When we think of unschooling as potentially being neglectful, or how unschoolers could be neglectful instead of "just unschooling," maybe we should be looking at what the children are or aren't learning.
But then comes the Next Layer: Radical Unschooling. If parents consider that their children are learning about food, hygiene, sleep needs, sharing, interpersonal relationships and all that in natural ways and the parents aren't helping them, then it can turn to personal neglect, child neglect, the stuff people lose their children about.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Dragonfly
Sandra wrote:
"I think of neglect as not having food in the house (something that happened when I was a kid, and to my cousins especially); not taking sick kids to doctors; hearing a child say he needs shoes because his feet hurt, and not getting him shoes; hearing a child ask to go somewhere, and blowing it off; promising to do things and not doing them; saying you'll be back to do something with them and forgetting all about it. Thinking "someday" instead of "now."
*****************
My first introduction to the term unschooling was through meeting and interacting with a family consisting of a single mom and a young boy. I worked with her at an office that allowed us to bring our children. I was homeschooling my son and she told me she was unschooling her son.
I would bring lunch for my son and I and lots of activities for him to keep him busy for the three hours I worked there. It became apparent to me very quickly that she put little thought into what her son's day would be like. She expected him to keep himself busy somehow in an office that had little to offer a boy his age. She also almost never had food or water with her. He was very dirty all the time, he was always wearing dirty clothing that was too big for him, was always hungry, didn't know how to write his name (he was 9 at the time) and didn't know how to read. He was good at basic math (could quickly add numbers in his head) and she would show off this fact but he couldn't really write numbers. When I built up the courage to comment about how she was neglecting his basic needs, she would respond that she was unschooling him. That it was up to him to learn, make his way etc.
I often heard him tell her he wanted to go to school because he wanted to learn to read and write. She would say school is "a horrible place" and "they will say you are stupid because you can't read". He spent a lot of time sharing the activities, food etc with my son. He was always so grateful for anything we shared with him. When he slept over our house, which was often, he never wanted to leave. While my son only wanted to play, this little boy wanted me to read to him or teach him how to cook or paint. As I got to know them at the time, I quickly made up my mind that unschooling was a fancy word for neglect. When I stopped working there after a year, we lost touch and she didn't return my attempts to continue to let our kids play. Recently I found out she thought I was uptight and a goody two shoes. I may have been but I think she didn't like my questioning her.
This year, after I read unschooling rules and later Sandra's blog, and her book the big book of unschooling , I realized how much work and time and planning goes into unschooling. I think it's harder than regular homeschooling which we did for three years- and it has impacted our lives much more positively than anything ever before.
When I see that boy around the city now (always alone when I see him) (he must be 12 now) and mutual friends comment about him ( about him coming by to their homes asking for food, wanting to stay over for long periods of time, asking them to read books to him etc) I feel angry because if she would just do it right, offer more, pay attention, he would benefit so. I often feel guilty I didn't push more to keep in touch just to help him in any way.
This case, to me, was the epitome of neglect. It was a disservice when she called what she did unschooling. In this small city, unschooling has a bad reputation because of her. When the conversation turns to them, I now make sure I mention that what she's doing is not unschooling at all.
Sent from my iPhone
"I think of neglect as not having food in the house (something that happened when I was a kid, and to my cousins especially); not taking sick kids to doctors; hearing a child say he needs shoes because his feet hurt, and not getting him shoes; hearing a child ask to go somewhere, and blowing it off; promising to do things and not doing them; saying you'll be back to do something with them and forgetting all about it. Thinking "someday" instead of "now."
*****************
My first introduction to the term unschooling was through meeting and interacting with a family consisting of a single mom and a young boy. I worked with her at an office that allowed us to bring our children. I was homeschooling my son and she told me she was unschooling her son.
I would bring lunch for my son and I and lots of activities for him to keep him busy for the three hours I worked there. It became apparent to me very quickly that she put little thought into what her son's day would be like. She expected him to keep himself busy somehow in an office that had little to offer a boy his age. She also almost never had food or water with her. He was very dirty all the time, he was always wearing dirty clothing that was too big for him, was always hungry, didn't know how to write his name (he was 9 at the time) and didn't know how to read. He was good at basic math (could quickly add numbers in his head) and she would show off this fact but he couldn't really write numbers. When I built up the courage to comment about how she was neglecting his basic needs, she would respond that she was unschooling him. That it was up to him to learn, make his way etc.
I often heard him tell her he wanted to go to school because he wanted to learn to read and write. She would say school is "a horrible place" and "they will say you are stupid because you can't read". He spent a lot of time sharing the activities, food etc with my son. He was always so grateful for anything we shared with him. When he slept over our house, which was often, he never wanted to leave. While my son only wanted to play, this little boy wanted me to read to him or teach him how to cook or paint. As I got to know them at the time, I quickly made up my mind that unschooling was a fancy word for neglect. When I stopped working there after a year, we lost touch and she didn't return my attempts to continue to let our kids play. Recently I found out she thought I was uptight and a goody two shoes. I may have been but I think she didn't like my questioning her.
This year, after I read unschooling rules and later Sandra's blog, and her book the big book of unschooling , I realized how much work and time and planning goes into unschooling. I think it's harder than regular homeschooling which we did for three years- and it has impacted our lives much more positively than anything ever before.
When I see that boy around the city now (always alone when I see him) (he must be 12 now) and mutual friends comment about him ( about him coming by to their homes asking for food, wanting to stay over for long periods of time, asking them to read books to him etc) I feel angry because if she would just do it right, offer more, pay attention, he would benefit so. I often feel guilty I didn't push more to keep in touch just to help him in any way.
This case, to me, was the epitome of neglect. It was a disservice when she called what she did unschooling. In this small city, unschooling has a bad reputation because of her. When the conversation turns to them, I now make sure I mention that what she's doing is not unschooling at all.
Sent from my iPhone
On Oct 5, 2011, at 6:42 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> To me, this sounds like "extremely attentive and involved":
>
> -=- When I let my son
> play Team Fortress 2 for hours on end, something in me is screaming
> the "neglect" alarm... and yet he is engaged in it and enjoying it and
> exploring and wanting more...
>
> -=-I offer food, I sit with him now and then. I give him a hug, watch a
> mission or 2. I read and type for him when he wants to communicate
> with his fellow players. Most of the time, I am in the same room,
> playing with his younger sister or cleaning up, or cooking or indeed
> doing my own things: reading, writing, chatting with my friends...
> Sometime he gets up, he comes for a hug, tells me how excited he is
> about the new weapon he just won, the success he just achieved...-=-
>
> I think of neglect as not having food in the house (something that happened when I was a kid, and to my cousins especially); not taking sick kids to doctors; hearing a child say he needs shoes because his feet hurt, and not getting him shoes; hearing a child ask to go somewhere, and blowing it off; promising to do things and not doing them; saying you'll be back to do something with them and forgetting all about it. Thinking "someday" instead of "now."
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]