Writing...
Karen
I'm wondering if there are stories of how other children grew into writing. My son is eight, and really has no interest in writing on paper. He reads well, and types words for his games on the computer, but doesn't like writing anything on paper. He used to write all the time. Letters, numbers, love notes, cards, comics...that kind of thing. Now, not at all. I'm wondering if I should be doing more. My husband and I both write often--notes, lists, etc. Are there fun games that have a writing component to them?
Also, if it comes up with family and friends what would be a good response. I'm a bit afraid of that part. Thanks.
Karen.
Also, if it comes up with family and friends what would be a good response. I'm a bit afraid of that part. Thanks.
Karen.
Sandra Dodd
http://sandradodd.com/writing
Eight is young. Handwriting is fading away.
If you have a blog, you can quote some of what your son tells, says, or types, and impress your relatives without them thinking about whether he can print clearly or "do cursive" ("joined-up," in the UK).
Here's a game with writing, but if you press him to play a game and he knows it's so he will learn to write, it won't be a game anymore. It will be a lesson.
http://sandradodd.com/writey
Sandra
Eight is young. Handwriting is fading away.
If you have a blog, you can quote some of what your son tells, says, or types, and impress your relatives without them thinking about whether he can print clearly or "do cursive" ("joined-up," in the UK).
Here's a game with writing, but if you press him to play a game and he knows it's so he will learn to write, it won't be a game anymore. It will be a lesson.
http://sandradodd.com/writey
Sandra
jo70mo
Well it sounds like he can do it but hasn't got a use for it at the moment. That's quite different from not writing YET. My son also 8 is just starting to have an interest in writing and has started to annotate things he designs - I could not say why he is now interested but his reading is just starting to come together too. However your son can already read and write and hopefully that itself could give you confidence with friends and family - "he reads and writes well but he is putting his energy into other areas at the moment".Or something along those lines. Maybe.
Are there specific questions or comments that seem to be coming from family and friends?
Jo
Are there specific questions or comments that seem to be coming from family and friends?
Jo
--- In [email protected], "Karen" <semajrak@...> wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if there are stories of how other children grew into writing. My son is eight, and really has no interest in writing on paper. He reads well, and types words for his games on the computer, but doesn't like writing anything on paper. He used to write all the time. Letters, numbers, love notes, cards, comics...that kind of thing. Now, not at all. I'm wondering if I should be doing more. My husband and I both write often--notes, lists, etc. Are there fun games that have a writing component to them?
>
> Also, if it comes up with family and friends what would be a good response. I'm a bit afraid of that part. Thanks.
>
> Karen.
>
Schuyler
He's moved into something else for a while. Maybe he'll come back to writing
things on paper, but right now he isn't interested in it. Sometimes what looks
like a step away from something may be a necessary break that leads to a
greater understanding. Sometimes not. But maybe while he isn't drawing or
writing he's thinking about form and ideas in a different way and he'll come
back to his drawing and his writing with new insights and perspectives that
make them more meaningful to him.
Why would it come up with family? Are they known for specific questions, almost
like they are testing you? Do they tend to ask you things like "is he writing on
paper much these days"? It seems a very odd question. If instead they ask if
he's still creating comics or writing letters you can talk about what he is
doing now. Talk about what his interests have grown into instead of what they
lack. It's a kind of spin, putting a positive spin on what is instead of shining
a fearful light on what may or may not be valuable and seems to be lacking.
Pictionary is a game that requires drawing. Hangman is writing. Hopscotch, chalk
drawings, facepaint, graffiti art on a bit of board with an airbrush tool,
passing notes at home.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Karen <semajrak@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 September, 2011 3:33:46
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Writing...
I'm wondering if there are stories of how other children grew into writing. My
son is eight, and really has no interest in writing on paper. He reads well,
and types words for his games on the computer, but doesn't like writing anything
on paper. He used to write all the time. Letters, numbers, love notes, cards,
comics...that kind of thing. Now, not at all. I'm wondering if I should be
doing more. My husband and I both write often--notes, lists, etc. Are there
fun games that have a writing component to them?
Also, if it comes up with family and friends what would be a good response. I'm
a bit afraid of that part. Thanks.
Karen.
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
things on paper, but right now he isn't interested in it. Sometimes what looks
like a step away from something may be a necessary break that leads to a
greater understanding. Sometimes not. But maybe while he isn't drawing or
writing he's thinking about form and ideas in a different way and he'll come
back to his drawing and his writing with new insights and perspectives that
make them more meaningful to him.
Why would it come up with family? Are they known for specific questions, almost
like they are testing you? Do they tend to ask you things like "is he writing on
paper much these days"? It seems a very odd question. If instead they ask if
he's still creating comics or writing letters you can talk about what he is
doing now. Talk about what his interests have grown into instead of what they
lack. It's a kind of spin, putting a positive spin on what is instead of shining
a fearful light on what may or may not be valuable and seems to be lacking.
Pictionary is a game that requires drawing. Hangman is writing. Hopscotch, chalk
drawings, facepaint, graffiti art on a bit of board with an airbrush tool,
passing notes at home.
Schuyler
________________________________
From: Karen <semajrak@...>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Tuesday, 27 September, 2011 3:33:46
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] Writing...
I'm wondering if there are stories of how other children grew into writing. My
son is eight, and really has no interest in writing on paper. He reads well,
and types words for his games on the computer, but doesn't like writing anything
on paper. He used to write all the time. Letters, numbers, love notes, cards,
comics...that kind of thing. Now, not at all. I'm wondering if I should be
doing more. My husband and I both write often--notes, lists, etc. Are there
fun games that have a writing component to them?
Also, if it comes up with family and friends what would be a good response. I'm
a bit afraid of that part. Thanks.
Karen.
------------------------------------
Yahoo! Groups Links
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
draconi_ann
My daughter, now 11, enjoyed making lists, writing to penpals and writing stories when she was 8. Often she would write a couple sentences on a page and then illustrate the following page until she had what she thought was enough for a book. She would then staple the pages together on the edge. She decided when she was 8 that she wanted to try school. I signed her up on a waiting list for a small, progressive school for the following school year. When she began that year, 4th grade, she was enthusiastic about writing. But after a couple months of being told what to write, how much and harshly critiqued, her love of writing was crushed. She left school after 4 months and didn't write anything the rest of the year. Last year she became very interested in anime and manga. She reads and watches them voraciously. A friend told her about fan fiction related to some of her favorite shows and she started writing again. Sometimes she writes collaboratively with other people but most often she writes a couple hours a day on one of a few stories she's working on. When she needs a better word she asks for suggestions. When she can't spell something she asks or Googles it. She has her stories critiqued by other writers on a fan fiction website.
My 8 year old son only writes wish lists. He is not as creatively inclined and sees writing only as a tool to help us know what to buy him when we can. My eldest son, 18, was not unschooled but traditionally homeschooled. He was made to practice penmanship daily and write essays. Today he still has poor handwriting and never writes unless absolutely necessary. Different people write for different reasons. My experience with my two eldest has led me to let my youngest come along in his own way.
~Michelle in AZ
- In [email protected], "Karen" <semajrak@...> wrote:
My 8 year old son only writes wish lists. He is not as creatively inclined and sees writing only as a tool to help us know what to buy him when we can. My eldest son, 18, was not unschooled but traditionally homeschooled. He was made to practice penmanship daily and write essays. Today he still has poor handwriting and never writes unless absolutely necessary. Different people write for different reasons. My experience with my two eldest has led me to let my youngest come along in his own way.
~Michelle in AZ
- In [email protected], "Karen" <semajrak@...> wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if there are stories of how other children grew into writing. My son is eight, and really has no interest in writing on paper. He reads well, and types words for his games on the computer, but doesn't like writing anything on paper. He used to write all the time. Letters, numbers, love notes, cards, comics...that kind of thing. Now, not at all. I'm wondering if I should be doing more. My husband and I both write often--notes, lists, etc. Are there fun games that have a writing component to them?
>
> Also, if it comes up with family and friends what would be a good response. I'm a bit afraid of that part. Thanks.
>
> Karen.
>
delphini004
I have a son (19) who writes a lot, now rather to the keyboard. And a son (13) who writes only rarely and only when needed for him (keep a note not to forget something, write a grocery list or to make purchases, etc.). and almost every day on the google search bar to look for informations or videos on the Internet. One writes every day, one less. I write a lot, every day. My husband rarely write. He prefers crafts, cleaning, repairing things. We make a good team, everyone has their thing and talents.
We publish a family newsletter for many years. When my youngest son was 3 to 10 years old, he often had ideas, inventing stories, etc.. and I was typing the words for him.
In the words of a friend (an unschooler mother and English teacher at the University) at a meeting one day: "writing is a work in several steps. The act of writing is first that of having something in our head, to try to express it, or create, invent a story. He who writes, transposing the words of another person on paper (or keyboard) is not necessarily the author (writer). He collects about, (as an interview) that's all. "
It helped me to see things this way, and I think it also helps family and friends to put things in perspective.
Edith
We publish a family newsletter for many years. When my youngest son was 3 to 10 years old, he often had ideas, inventing stories, etc.. and I was typing the words for him.
In the words of a friend (an unschooler mother and English teacher at the University) at a meeting one day: "writing is a work in several steps. The act of writing is first that of having something in our head, to try to express it, or create, invent a story. He who writes, transposing the words of another person on paper (or keyboard) is not necessarily the author (writer). He collects about, (as an interview) that's all. "
It helped me to see things this way, and I think it also helps family and friends to put things in perspective.
Edith
--- In [email protected], "Karen" <semajrak@...> wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if there are stories of how other children grew into writing. My son is eight, and really has no interest in writing on paper. He reads well, and types words for his games on the computer, but doesn't like writing anything on paper. He used to write all the time. Letters, numbers, love notes, cards, comics...that kind of thing. Now, not at all. I'm wondering if I should be doing more. My husband and I both write often--notes, lists, etc. Are there fun games that have a writing component to them?
>
> Also, if it comes up with family and friends what would be a good response. I'm a bit afraid of that part. Thanks.
>
> Karen.
>
Karen
>>>> Are there specific questions or comments that seem to be coming from family and friends?My parents are well into their 80s. Neither of them went very far in school. I was the first person in my family to go on in school, and it was one of the highlights of their lives. (Not so much for me, but I did get a lot out of it at the same time.) Whenever we see them, they ask about "the three Rs." My dad, especially, looks very concerned when he asks. So far, he has been happy enough with our responses, although, as our son gets older, I know him well enough to know that he will test and ask difficult questions at some point. Then, he will look generally disappointed if the results are not what he is expecting. He can be very hard. We only see them once or twice a year, however.
The same is similar with my husband's family, although they are less likely to ask questions when my husband and I are around (which makes me nervous for my son).
Most of our friends are either conventional homeschoolers or go to school. Being that they are around the same age as our son, a big part of their homework and days is writing. Parents have talked with me about their frustrations around getting their kids to do their writing. I don't say much. I just nod and listen. But, I have to admit, I allow it to worry me.
There is also the state district that I need to report to. We live in the state of New York with quarterly reports and testing that starts next year. This is also playing on my mind.
I think my problem is that I am focusing on what we are *not* doing, and forgetting all of the cool things we *are* doing. Because of that I kind of panic inside when listening to others, get asked questions or think about future interactions, reports or tests.
My son has a wonderful vocabulary, and tells brilliant stories. He has great understanding of what he reads, especially game manuals. If I said he likes to read game manuals or Garfield, or wikipedia to family, friends, or the state, they would likely sigh and/or express concern. So, I just say he reads all the time, which he does. I could do the same with writing if I could look at it differently. I need to work on that. I was hoping writing games would introduce writing in a fun way, but, as I type this, it sounds to me like I am doing it for the wrong reasons.
Julie Hilbert
My daughter never liked to write. She was the same...she did not like
to write and did not know how to spell so would rarely attempt it. But
she was very creative and so I would let her dictate to me what she
wanted to say and type it out for her. When she was young, until about
age 9, we were in a charter school that allowed the unschooling method,
but as she got older, they started enforcing more and more rules - so
that in "4th Grade", we were told she would be required to write at
least 4 essays a year. Knowing I would have GREAT resistance from my
daughter, I told them I could not do that to her and quit.
Since then, through various methods, she has learned how to spell, how
to write and loves it. She has actually attempted to write a couple of
books throughout the years, but never finished any. Someday she may.
Sometimes my thoughts were to "teach" her the methods of writing so she
would know the "rules" of writing but I would eventually talk myself out
of it. <grin>
She's 15 now. I want her to always love to write and I know she will
obtain what she needs if necessary.
Julie
to write and did not know how to spell so would rarely attempt it. But
she was very creative and so I would let her dictate to me what she
wanted to say and type it out for her. When she was young, until about
age 9, we were in a charter school that allowed the unschooling method,
but as she got older, they started enforcing more and more rules - so
that in "4th Grade", we were told she would be required to write at
least 4 essays a year. Knowing I would have GREAT resistance from my
daughter, I told them I could not do that to her and quit.
Since then, through various methods, she has learned how to spell, how
to write and loves it. She has actually attempted to write a couple of
books throughout the years, but never finished any. Someday she may.
Sometimes my thoughts were to "teach" her the methods of writing so she
would know the "rules" of writing but I would eventually talk myself out
of it. <grin>
She's 15 now. I want her to always love to write and I know she will
obtain what she needs if necessary.
Julie
--- In [email protected], "Karen" <semajrak@...> wrote:
>
> I'm wondering if there are stories of how other children grew into
writing. My son is eight, and really has no interest in writing on
paper. He reads well, and types words for his games on the computer,
but doesn't like writing anything on paper. He used to write all the
time. Letters, numbers, love notes, cards, comics...that kind of thing.
Now, not at all. I'm wondering if I should be doing more. My husband
and I both write often--notes, lists, etc. Are there fun games that
have a writing component to them?
>
> Also, if it comes up with family and friends what would be a good
response. I'm a bit afraid of that part. Thanks.
>
> Karen.
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-There is also the state district that I need to report to. We live in the state of New York with quarterly reports and testing that starts next year. This is also playing on my mind. -=-
Are you in contact with people in New York, with unschoolers? All that discussion should take place there. Because there are only three or four places where such reporting is required, when it's discussed on an international list, it ends up spooking new unschoolers from the 70 (or howevermany) other jurisdictions and this discussion isn't supposed to be about laws anyway, but how learning works.
The traditions of written homework go back to times when clerks hand-wrote people's banking receipts and ledgers, when all business correspondence was done with pen and ink, and when every bit of writing was either set by a linotype machine operator or was done by hand.
Those days are long gone.
I'm guessing that you type letters when you write to your parents, rather than hand write them all, but even if you don't, consider that many young people--even who went to school--can't read cursive writing, and especially the cursive writing of much older people than they are. Styles change, and individuals' handwriting goes downhill as they get older.
The best thing to do about handwriting is not to worry about it. And as long as you're comparing your child's learning to what kids at school seem to be doing, you won't soar. You'll hobble along sadly looking at schoolkids' homework. That is not where unschooling thrives. It's not where ANY learning thrives, and it's not where school thrives, either.
Step away, into the real world.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Are you in contact with people in New York, with unschoolers? All that discussion should take place there. Because there are only three or four places where such reporting is required, when it's discussed on an international list, it ends up spooking new unschoolers from the 70 (or howevermany) other jurisdictions and this discussion isn't supposed to be about laws anyway, but how learning works.
The traditions of written homework go back to times when clerks hand-wrote people's banking receipts and ledgers, when all business correspondence was done with pen and ink, and when every bit of writing was either set by a linotype machine operator or was done by hand.
Those days are long gone.
I'm guessing that you type letters when you write to your parents, rather than hand write them all, but even if you don't, consider that many young people--even who went to school--can't read cursive writing, and especially the cursive writing of much older people than they are. Styles change, and individuals' handwriting goes downhill as they get older.
The best thing to do about handwriting is not to worry about it. And as long as you're comparing your child's learning to what kids at school seem to be doing, you won't soar. You'll hobble along sadly looking at schoolkids' homework. That is not where unschooling thrives. It's not where ANY learning thrives, and it's not where school thrives, either.
Step away, into the real world.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
Two of my kids grew up and took the placement tests for the community college. Both tested into English 101, meaning they could take a college writing course for credit without any review course. The review courses in those college are full of people who DID go to school and study writing from a very young age.
That's enough evidence for me that living in the real world of works and not being pressed to do things one isn't ready to do or interested in doing can (has, does) result in young adults who are as prepared for college English classes as 12 or 13 years of school does.
Many of the kids in schools get bad grades, are failures, poor kids. Writing can fill them with dread and shame for the rest of their lives. Don't Do This at Home.
Sandra
That's enough evidence for me that living in the real world of works and not being pressed to do things one isn't ready to do or interested in doing can (has, does) result in young adults who are as prepared for college English classes as 12 or 13 years of school does.
Many of the kids in schools get bad grades, are failures, poor kids. Writing can fill them with dread and shame for the rest of their lives. Don't Do This at Home.
Sandra
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 27, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Julie Hilbert wrote:
Every November :-)
http://www.nanowrimo.org
The goal is to just get out 50,000 words of a novel before the end of
the month. No editing. No caring if the plot zigs and zags. No caring
if the plot gets abandoned halfway through. It's all about playing and
having fun with the ideas and the process. Very unschoolish :-)
(No one checks the story.(If the story isn't complete at 50,000,
doesn't matter.) All that's done is pure word count. Someone could
cheat but no one's competing against anyone. It's a personal challenge.)
My daughter Kat's done it 6 (coming up on 7) times. The first year was
torture. (Self chosen. She knew she could quit but was determined to
finish.) Tears. But she did finish. Last year, I swear she was writing
faster than i can type ;-) and completed 120,000 words with ease.
The hardest part of writing is shutting up that internal editor that
makes people abandon a writing project (especially quite consistently
for most people at about the 20,000 word mark ;-). NaNoWriMo is great
for that. There isn't time for editing or questioning whether it's any
good or not! :-) Good is irrelevant.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> She has actually attempted to write a couple ofDoes she know about National Novel Writing Month? It's coming up!
> books throughout the years, but never finished any. Someday she may.
Every November :-)
http://www.nanowrimo.org
The goal is to just get out 50,000 words of a novel before the end of
the month. No editing. No caring if the plot zigs and zags. No caring
if the plot gets abandoned halfway through. It's all about playing and
having fun with the ideas and the process. Very unschoolish :-)
(No one checks the story.(If the story isn't complete at 50,000,
doesn't matter.) All that's done is pure word count. Someone could
cheat but no one's competing against anyone. It's a personal challenge.)
My daughter Kat's done it 6 (coming up on 7) times. The first year was
torture. (Self chosen. She knew she could quit but was determined to
finish.) Tears. But she did finish. Last year, I swear she was writing
faster than i can type ;-) and completed 120,000 words with ease.
The hardest part of writing is shutting up that internal editor that
makes people abandon a writing project (especially quite consistently
for most people at about the 20,000 word mark ;-). NaNoWriMo is great
for that. There isn't time for editing or questioning whether it's any
good or not! :-) Good is irrelevant.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"Karen" <semajrak@...> wrote:
Mo went a couple years, after she had learned to read, where she didn't read. She wasn't interested. Then after a couple years, she started again.
She did a lot of writing and drawing when she was 3-5ish, and then mostly stopped doing either for a few years. She was into paper-cutting in a biiiiiiig way and didn't need to write or draw or paint. Everything was paper.
Then for awhile she drew a lot of comic strips with no writing. For about a year now - she's 10 - she's been doing a lot more writing.
Interests come and go! I'm an avid quilter and knitter, but last year I hardly looked at the sewing machine and rarely picked up a knitting needle. Now I'm back to having more projects going than I have time to finish them all.
School gives the impression that kids "progress" in some kind of steady forward motion - learn a little more each year, get a little better each year - but that's not how learning happens in real life. Its not even how it happens in school!
---Meredith
>He used to write all the time. Letters, numbers, love notes, cards, comics...that kind of thing. Now, not at all.******************
Mo went a couple years, after she had learned to read, where she didn't read. She wasn't interested. Then after a couple years, she started again.
She did a lot of writing and drawing when she was 3-5ish, and then mostly stopped doing either for a few years. She was into paper-cutting in a biiiiiiig way and didn't need to write or draw or paint. Everything was paper.
Then for awhile she drew a lot of comic strips with no writing. For about a year now - she's 10 - she's been doing a lot more writing.
Interests come and go! I'm an avid quilter and knitter, but last year I hardly looked at the sewing machine and rarely picked up a knitting needle. Now I'm back to having more projects going than I have time to finish them all.
School gives the impression that kids "progress" in some kind of steady forward motion - learn a little more each year, get a little better each year - but that's not how learning happens in real life. Its not even how it happens in school!
---Meredith
Angela
I have a 9YO who prefers not to write more than a few words at a time. The physical act of writing is still very difficult for him. Phonetics just don't make a bit of sense to him (he was in school for a couple years; we don't do phonetics at home), he prefers to draw pictures to remind himself of things he wants to look up later, etc.
I have taken some flack from my in-laws about this.
I shared this with them.
http://patriciazaballos.com/2009/10/23/take-five-minutes-and-try-this/
The same blog has lots of good posts about taking dictation from kids, embracing any subject your child wants to write about, and how kids learn the mechanics of writing from reading good writing and/or watching you take dictation.
I'm not saying you have to follow her instruction for writing with your son unless it's something he would find fun and interesting right now. But for me, just having these blog entries I can point to, written by someone who teaches writing to kids and who people pay to talk about teaching writing to kids, is enough to get my SILs to lay off a bit. Which makes things generally more pleasant all the way around.
-Angela in NJ
with Joseph, 9; Hannah, 6; and Miriam, almost 4
I have taken some flack from my in-laws about this.
I shared this with them.
http://patriciazaballos.com/2009/10/23/take-five-minutes-and-try-this/
The same blog has lots of good posts about taking dictation from kids, embracing any subject your child wants to write about, and how kids learn the mechanics of writing from reading good writing and/or watching you take dictation.
I'm not saying you have to follow her instruction for writing with your son unless it's something he would find fun and interesting right now. But for me, just having these blog entries I can point to, written by someone who teaches writing to kids and who people pay to talk about teaching writing to kids, is enough to get my SILs to lay off a bit. Which makes things generally more pleasant all the way around.
-Angela in NJ
with Joseph, 9; Hannah, 6; and Miriam, almost 4
Karen
Thanks to everyone! Your responses were so helpful. I could feel myself stuck, and I wasn't sure how to think my way free.
This morning, I looked at where I was in my thinking only a few days ago, and wondered why, but I couldn't seem to get here on my own. Something for me to think about, so we can "soar" more and I can question less.
Thanks again!
This morning, I looked at where I was in my thinking only a few days ago, and wondered why, but I couldn't seem to get here on my own. Something for me to think about, so we can "soar" more and I can question less.
Thanks again!
Sandra Dodd
-=-This morning, I looked at where I was in my thinking only a few days ago, and wondered why, but I couldn't seem to get here on my own. Something for me to think about, so we can "soar" more and I can question less. -=-
Looking back at how you got where you are is great, though, because you'll be able to help others.
And thanks for giving the rest of us the opportunity to make suggestions in a large forum where others who are quietly reading can benefit.
Twice this week I've given one-on-one help, and I realize how much more I love group discussions. Not only is what I write useful to people who don't even need to admit they read it, but each question asked gets more than one answer, so there are dimensions to the responses, depth, and angles.
"Writing" is so broad a field of ideas that my head spins just trying to summarize it, and I've taught "writing" before. And I have three children who have gone from not writing to writing.
Kirby's work involves real-time written exchanges (something that was never even dreamt of when I was in school), as he's (now supervisory, but once front-lines) working with the in-game interface in World of Warcraft, where the players can ask questions or appeal to the company (in the form of game masters). That's done by typing answers, right then and there.
When I was in school, typing had to do with transcribing words from paper to other paper with a typewriter. Later word processing came along, but that was also just moving someone else's words into a more editable and useable format. Nowhere in there was anyone thinking it would become instant back-and-forth communication. We use it her on this discussion list, though a little slower (and we can take time to edit, though twice yesterday I posted things without stopping to think--one on facebook and one an announcement of my Wednesday online chats http://sandradodd.com/room ).
Holly and her boyfriend text, and though sometimes I can't believe they don't just call and talk real words, they have a record of their exchanges, and they can leave messages without interrupting the other's activities. When Holly finishes a yoga class or a babysitting job, she has a message from Will. She can leave him a message he can check after he finishes working on tile (he's doing murals for a city project) or recording (his band is doing a CD).
Marty and his friends are in constant contact through facebook, texts, and XBox.
All of those involve writing.
Another way to look at this is the "language arts" angle:
http://sandradodd.com/language/
http://sandradodd.com/etymology
Playing with words gives kids advantages. I don't want to say "vocabulary enrichment," because that sounds ponderous (and it IS ponderous), but word play and the freedom and joy to rearrange words without criticism will move a person nearer to good writing than any "practice" sheets/drills/sessions ever could.
Sandra
Sandra
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Looking back at how you got where you are is great, though, because you'll be able to help others.
And thanks for giving the rest of us the opportunity to make suggestions in a large forum where others who are quietly reading can benefit.
Twice this week I've given one-on-one help, and I realize how much more I love group discussions. Not only is what I write useful to people who don't even need to admit they read it, but each question asked gets more than one answer, so there are dimensions to the responses, depth, and angles.
"Writing" is so broad a field of ideas that my head spins just trying to summarize it, and I've taught "writing" before. And I have three children who have gone from not writing to writing.
Kirby's work involves real-time written exchanges (something that was never even dreamt of when I was in school), as he's (now supervisory, but once front-lines) working with the in-game interface in World of Warcraft, where the players can ask questions or appeal to the company (in the form of game masters). That's done by typing answers, right then and there.
When I was in school, typing had to do with transcribing words from paper to other paper with a typewriter. Later word processing came along, but that was also just moving someone else's words into a more editable and useable format. Nowhere in there was anyone thinking it would become instant back-and-forth communication. We use it her on this discussion list, though a little slower (and we can take time to edit, though twice yesterday I posted things without stopping to think--one on facebook and one an announcement of my Wednesday online chats http://sandradodd.com/room ).
Holly and her boyfriend text, and though sometimes I can't believe they don't just call and talk real words, they have a record of their exchanges, and they can leave messages without interrupting the other's activities. When Holly finishes a yoga class or a babysitting job, she has a message from Will. She can leave him a message he can check after he finishes working on tile (he's doing murals for a city project) or recording (his band is doing a CD).
Marty and his friends are in constant contact through facebook, texts, and XBox.
All of those involve writing.
Another way to look at this is the "language arts" angle:
http://sandradodd.com/language/
http://sandradodd.com/etymology
Playing with words gives kids advantages. I don't want to say "vocabulary enrichment," because that sounds ponderous (and it IS ponderous), but word play and the freedom and joy to rearrange words without criticism will move a person nearer to good writing than any "practice" sheets/drills/sessions ever could.
Sandra
Sandra
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Sandra Dodd
I didn't notice this until it was over. It was yesterday, but I suppose it might come back around again next year.
No Pens Day, in schools in the UK (voluntary by school or teacher? I don't know):
http://www.hello.org.uk/get-involved/no-pens-day-wednesday.aspx
No Pens Day, in schools in the UK (voluntary by school or teacher? I don't know):
http://www.hello.org.uk/get-involved/no-pens-day-wednesday.aspx
Jenny Cyphers
***we were in a charter school that allowed the unschooling method***
Simply BEING in a school would negate unschooling. Unschooling isn't a schooling method of education. This is partly why: ***they started enforcing more and more rules - so that in "4th Grade", we were told she would be required to write at least 4 essays a year.***
It might be enough to say that your daughter went to an alternative school that focused on individual learning plans. It still wouldn't be the same thing as unschooling and it confuses what IS unschooling. While discussing the definition of unschooling, people come away with hundreds of ideas of what it is. Sometimes it's easier to say what unschooling is NOT. Unschooling is not going to school, or replicating school at home. Unschooling isn't a school method.
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Simply BEING in a school would negate unschooling. Unschooling isn't a schooling method of education. This is partly why: ***they started enforcing more and more rules - so that in "4th Grade", we were told she would be required to write at least 4 essays a year.***
It might be enough to say that your daughter went to an alternative school that focused on individual learning plans. It still wouldn't be the same thing as unschooling and it confuses what IS unschooling. While discussing the definition of unschooling, people come away with hundreds of ideas of what it is. Sometimes it's easier to say what unschooling is NOT. Unschooling is not going to school, or replicating school at home. Unschooling isn't a school method.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***The physical act of writing is still very difficult for him. Phonetics just don't make a bit of sense to him (he was in school for a couple years; we don't do phonetics at home)***
Writing and phonetics aren't really one and the same. Many kids who grow up learning how to read with phonics, are terrible spellers. Many of those same kids have terrible handwriting. Some of them have great things to say and some of them don't. If you were to judge the random average person by youtube comments, you might be appalled at the lack of spelling and grammar and coherent thought. The physical act of writing has little to do with phonetics. I have one example of using phonetics while "writing".
For any parent that wants to encourage FUN writing, get a giant chalkboard or dry erase board. We also have refrigerator magnets and that's where some interesting phonetics come into play with only one complete alphabet and a handful of stray letters. Our kitchen is the hub of random messages and pictures, both on the fridge and chalk board.
It's not writing with a pen or pencil with paper. It's writing with chalk, vertical, large, picturesque, but writing is there none the less. Magnets aren't really writing at all, not in that sense, but it does encompass spelling, usually intentional mis-spelling with the use of phonics. Both of those things are used for messages to others. Real writing conveying messages, not unlike texts.
I'm reading a book that has lots of Italian words. I can't pronounce them in my head and sometimes it's frustrating for me. The author writes some of them out phonetically in parenthesis and that's been great because regular old English phonetics just don't work with Italian words at all! I've always liked looking up words in the dictionary and seeing the phonetic spelling and pronunciation.
When we were reading the Harry Potter books, it was GREAT to have a few of them to listen to on CD because I knew how to pronounce things better while reading aloud to my kids.
In actual practice, both of my kids spell well when they write. If they don't know how to spell something, they either look it up or ask me and I will tell them, or look it up. Neither of my kids are writing essays or novels, but I don't doubt at all that they could if they wanted to. Somewhere along the way, as my oldest got older, I discovered that those things aren't necessary for learning to happen. My oldest can sign her name and fill out forms. That's the kind of practical writing that she does to get along in the world, other than that, all her writing is done with key boards. Since her grammar and spelling are pretty good and no one ever needs to know what her physical hand writing looks like, I'd say she's a fine writer. (I really like her handwriting even if she doesn't)
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Writing and phonetics aren't really one and the same. Many kids who grow up learning how to read with phonics, are terrible spellers. Many of those same kids have terrible handwriting. Some of them have great things to say and some of them don't. If you were to judge the random average person by youtube comments, you might be appalled at the lack of spelling and grammar and coherent thought. The physical act of writing has little to do with phonetics. I have one example of using phonetics while "writing".
For any parent that wants to encourage FUN writing, get a giant chalkboard or dry erase board. We also have refrigerator magnets and that's where some interesting phonetics come into play with only one complete alphabet and a handful of stray letters. Our kitchen is the hub of random messages and pictures, both on the fridge and chalk board.
It's not writing with a pen or pencil with paper. It's writing with chalk, vertical, large, picturesque, but writing is there none the less. Magnets aren't really writing at all, not in that sense, but it does encompass spelling, usually intentional mis-spelling with the use of phonics. Both of those things are used for messages to others. Real writing conveying messages, not unlike texts.
I'm reading a book that has lots of Italian words. I can't pronounce them in my head and sometimes it's frustrating for me. The author writes some of them out phonetically in parenthesis and that's been great because regular old English phonetics just don't work with Italian words at all! I've always liked looking up words in the dictionary and seeing the phonetic spelling and pronunciation.
When we were reading the Harry Potter books, it was GREAT to have a few of them to listen to on CD because I knew how to pronounce things better while reading aloud to my kids.
In actual practice, both of my kids spell well when they write. If they don't know how to spell something, they either look it up or ask me and I will tell them, or look it up. Neither of my kids are writing essays or novels, but I don't doubt at all that they could if they wanted to. Somewhere along the way, as my oldest got older, I discovered that those things aren't necessary for learning to happen. My oldest can sign her name and fill out forms. That's the kind of practical writing that she does to get along in the world, other than that, all her writing is done with key boards. Since her grammar and spelling are pretty good and no one ever needs to know what her physical hand writing looks like, I'd say she's a fine writer. (I really like her handwriting even if she doesn't)
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Meredith
Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
---Meredith
> ***we were in a charter school that allowed the unschooling method***To clarify - was it a brick and mortar school or something more like an "umbrella school"? Aren't umbrella organizations called charters in some places? That was how I read the post, anyway. I know there are umbrella schools which have no requirements other than "attendance" or a list of "topics covered" for the first few years but then change when kids are in the tweens or teen years.
>
>
> Simply BEING in a school would negate unschooling.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=- I know there are umbrella schools which have no requirements other than "attendance" or a list of "topics covered" for the first few years but then change when kids are in the tweens or teen years. -=-
Umbrella schools are usually homeschooling organizations, or an individual willing to file paperwork (if required) and take care of testing and test scores (if required). Most states don't need that at all.
Charter schools are alternative schools accepting tax money to provide what is public school with a twist, a special slant. VERY often they start off idealistically, and gradually (or swiftly) move toward more rules and tests and measures, either because they can't figure out how else to be, or the district or state requires that.
And neither term is very useful in this discussion. If people are needing that sort of information, they need to find it locally or regionally.
Sandra
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Umbrella schools are usually homeschooling organizations, or an individual willing to file paperwork (if required) and take care of testing and test scores (if required). Most states don't need that at all.
Charter schools are alternative schools accepting tax money to provide what is public school with a twist, a special slant. VERY often they start off idealistically, and gradually (or swiftly) move toward more rules and tests and measures, either because they can't figure out how else to be, or the district or state requires that.
And neither term is very useful in this discussion. If people are needing that sort of information, they need to find it locally or regionally.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
>>***The physical act of writing is still very difficult for him. Phonetics just don't make a bit of sense to him (he was in school for a couple years; we don't do phonetics at home)***
Writing and phonetics aren't really one and the same. Many kids who grow up learning how to read with phonics, are terrible spellers. Many of those same kids have terrible handwriting. Some of them have great things to say and some of them don't. If you were to judge the random average person by youtube comments, you might be appalled at the lack of spelling and grammar and coherent thought. The physical act of writing has little to do with phonetics. I have one example of using phonetics while "writing".
<<
I agree with you that writing (either the physical act or the ability to compose) and phonetics aren't the same, but for kids for whom phonetics don't make a bit of sense, they are something -- like a difficulty with the physical act of writing -- that will get in the way of an interest to compose with pen/pencil on paper or even on with typing on the computer. And I think that's what the OP was fretting about.
Now that my son is reading, that is helping him add daily to his vocabulary of words he knows how to spell. BUT he is so visual that he really can't begin to sound out words that he hasn't seen. Fortunately he has no self-consciousness about asking how to spell things, and we just spell them for him without comment. I'm sure that one day he will commit enough words and sounds to memory that even if he doesn't spell well, he will spell well enough that he can use auto-correct on spellcheck, etc.
Hand the kid a video camera or turn on dragonspeak and he will dictate much more than he would ever want to write or type out. And when he wants to, he dictates and I write or type. And he's very happy with drawing pictures to remind him of things he wants to remember later.
I'm not worried about _how_ he physically expresses his ideas, just that he is able to, some how, when he wants to.
-Angela in NJ
with Joseph, 9; Hannah, 6; and Miriam, almost 4
Robin Bentley
> =-= I agree with you that writing (either the physical act or thePhonetics and phonics are different, too. Phonetics is "a branch of
> ability to compose) and phonetics aren't the same, but for kids for
> whom phonetics don't make a bit of sense, they are something -- like
> a difficulty with the physical act of writing -- that will get in
> the way of an interest to compose with pen/pencil on paper or even
> on with typing on the computer. =-=
linguistics that comprises the study of the sounds spoken language
makes"; phonics "is a method to teach English speakers how to read and
write" (source Wikipedia).
Which one are we talking about here?
If it's phonics, my daughter did not "get" phonics. She learned in a
"whole language" way (officially another method of teaching reading,
but I didn't teach it - I'm just using that term to identify how she
learned). She didn't read to her satisfaction until she was almost 11.
She didn't write (paper or keyboard) until 14 or so. At 16, she has
excellent spelling, grammar and punctuation, plus she understands
context, humor and roots of language through her interests (World of
Warcraft, Pokemon, Digimon, various other manga/anime, crime shows on
TV and more).
=-= Now that my son is reading, that is helping him add daily to his
vocabulary of words he knows how to spell. =-=
Is he adding them himself? I'm only asking because it sounds a bit
like he has a task to complete ("adding daily to his vocabulary of
words"). If that's not the case, never mind!
=-= BUT he is so visual that he really can't begin to sound out words
that he hasn't seen.
That really doesn't have to be a "but" in caps. It just is. "He is a
visual learner".
=-= Fortunately he has no self-consciousness about asking how to spell
things, and we just spell them for him without comment. I'm sure that
one day he will commit enough words and sounds to memory that even if
he doesn't spell well, he will spell well enough that he can use auto-
correct on spellcheck, etc. =-=
He won't have to commit them to memory. My daughter at 16 has no
trouble figuring out new-to-her words. She certainly has experience to
draw upon for comparison, but it's not like she sees a new word and
thinks "I've never seen that before. Now what?".
My husband, who has written 9 books at last count and actually wasn't
much of a reader when he was a kid, still asks me to spell words. It's
no big deal.
=-= I'm not worried about _how_ he physically expresses his ideas,
just that he is able to, some how, when he wants to. =-=
So you are worried about something. Do you think he won't be able to
express his ideas?
Robin B.
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chris ester
In the state of Maryland, an umbrella school is an organization that is run
by a church that "supervises' the home education of people who are members
of the school.
These umbrella schools (or groups) can be more or less intrusive than the
state and may be any religion. In the state of Maryland, a group can call
themselves a church even if they have no brick and mortar location and do
not claim any tax benefits. So, the religious aspect of a church is subject
to it's members desires. This being the case, the umbrella that my family
belongs to is very ecumenical and does not require any faith at all. They
also only require that some paperwork reports be handed in to document a
child's education, no portfolios or samples or curriculum, etc. The two
"big" requirements are attendance to one (out of 20+ throughout the school
year) field trip of our choosing and a write up of our homeschool adventure
at the beginning of May.
A charter school here in Maryland is a private school that receives public
funds and has to meet certain state guidelines. I can't imagine that any
entity that receives state funding would be free to allow anything that is
even close to unschooling. Any level of government would require some sort
of measurable results from the students. Perhaps they could allow a menu of
options for children to choose from, but there would be federal requirements
as well for any school to meet.
I don't know how you would unschool a group of students in a classroom with
a teacher that isn't very close to each and every one of them. How can a
single person successfully facilitate 20 kids' desires? Unless most of them
desire to be left alone with a good book or project and want no adult
support at all. Not to mention, if any or all of them want to go off
outside of the classroom...
The necessities of safety and accountability that come with institutional
settings would negate most things that would be anything like unschooling.
Chris
by a church that "supervises' the home education of people who are members
of the school.
These umbrella schools (or groups) can be more or less intrusive than the
state and may be any religion. In the state of Maryland, a group can call
themselves a church even if they have no brick and mortar location and do
not claim any tax benefits. So, the religious aspect of a church is subject
to it's members desires. This being the case, the umbrella that my family
belongs to is very ecumenical and does not require any faith at all. They
also only require that some paperwork reports be handed in to document a
child's education, no portfolios or samples or curriculum, etc. The two
"big" requirements are attendance to one (out of 20+ throughout the school
year) field trip of our choosing and a write up of our homeschool adventure
at the beginning of May.
A charter school here in Maryland is a private school that receives public
funds and has to meet certain state guidelines. I can't imagine that any
entity that receives state funding would be free to allow anything that is
even close to unschooling. Any level of government would require some sort
of measurable results from the students. Perhaps they could allow a menu of
options for children to choose from, but there would be federal requirements
as well for any school to meet.
I don't know how you would unschool a group of students in a classroom with
a teacher that isn't very close to each and every one of them. How can a
single person successfully facilitate 20 kids' desires? Unless most of them
desire to be left alone with a good book or project and want no adult
support at all. Not to mention, if any or all of them want to go off
outside of the classroom...
The necessities of safety and accountability that come with institutional
settings would negate most things that would be anything like unschooling.
Chris
On Thu, Sep 29, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Meredith <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Jenny Cyphers <jenstarc4@...> wrote:
>
> > ***we were in a charter school that allowed the unschooling method***
> >
> >
> > Simply BEING in a school would negate unschooling.
>
> To clarify - was it a brick and mortar school or something more like an
> "umbrella school"? Aren't umbrella organizations called charters in some
> places? That was how I read the post, anyway. I know there are umbrella
> schools which have no requirements other than "attendance" or a list of
> "topics covered" for the first few years but then change when kids are in
> the tweens or teen years.
>
> ---Meredith
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
>> Phonetics and phonics are different, too. Phonetics is "a branch oflinguistics that comprises the study of the sounds spoken language
makes"; phonics "is a method to teach English speakers how to read and write" (source Wikipedia).
Which one are we talking about here?<<
Phonics! Sorry. Definitely phonics.
> =-= I'm not worried about _how_ he physically expresses his ideas,I think the issue here is that I'm used to writing and speaking to people who don't understand why I'm *not* worried, why I don't require him to write -- so his handwriting will get better, so he'll know how to write "insert schoolish writing project here", etc.
> just that he is able to, some how, when he wants to. =-=
>
> So you are worried about something. Do you think he won't be able to
> express his ideas?
Same goes for the BUT in caps about being a visual learner, and pretty much everything else that jumped out at you. I've been reading here and on Unschooling Basics for a couple years, but have just started posting occasionally. It's better training in writing clearly and for your intended audience than I got in college, and I studied Mass Communications. (-:
>>=-= Fortunately he has no self-consciousness about asking how to spell things, and we just spell them for him without comment. I'm sure that one day he will commit enough words and sounds to memory that even if he doesn't spell well, he will spell well enough that he can use auto-correct on spellcheck, etc. =-=<<trouble figuring out new-to-her words. She certainly has experience to
>>He won't have to commit them to memory. My daughter at 16 has no
draw upon for comparison, but it's not like she sees a new word and
thinks "I've never seen that before. Now what?".<<
>>My husband, who has written 9 books at last count and actually wasn't much of a reader when he was a kid, still asks me to spell words. It's no big deal.<<Agreed. I don't think he *needs* to commit them to memory, he just seems to. And at nine he's not stumped about what to do when he sees a new word (he just asks what it is), but his current inability to come close to spelling many of the words he has in his *spoken* vocabulary -- the ones he'd want to use in composition -- gets in the way of any enjoyment he would get out of "sitting down and writing" on his own. That's why we've found other ways for him to record his ideas, either on his own or with our help. And his ideas come so fast and with such enthusiasm that I'll drop just about anything to get him set up with whatever he wants/needs to record them.
And if he tries to sound out a word -- something my in-laws will sometimes ask him to do if he asks one of them about a word they think he should know -- forget it. By the time he's gotten to the end of the word, he can't remember what the beginning sounds were. Not uncommon for visual learners, but not what most people are used to because that's not how they "teach reading" in school.
-Angela in NJ
Sandra Dodd
-=-I think the issue here is that I'm used to writing and speaking to people who don't understand why I'm *not* worried, why I don't require him to write -- so his handwriting will get better, so he'll know how to write "insert schoolish writing project here", etc.-=-
You don't have to explain yourself to everyone. You can say, "I know it's hard to understand, sorry."
You could say "If you want to read more about it, I can give you some links."
-=-Same goes for the BUT in caps about being a visual learner, and pretty much everything else that jumped out at you-=-
Learning styles are fine to think about, but not to marry. No one has a single style. It's good to offer an array of input and stimuli and then a child learns in a multi-dimensional way. Nothing is as good for that as unschooling is.
Rather than thinking of reading and writing in terms of "visual learning" (what else would there be? Spelling-bee-style audio?), think of it (IF you have to; maybe you can just let it all go) in terms of "look-say" vs. phonics. Learning by the shape and appearance of the words. But you know what? In the case of a single child learning to read (or learning anything) it's not really any of our business what methods he uses, except out of our curiosity to learn.
If I'm hired to train a bunch of warehouse workers to follow procedures, THEN it matters how I present it and how they learn, because I want to keep my job and justify my salary by proving results.
There is no factory, not to work in, not to produce "students" from.
There's only learning.
Maybe look at the five senses part of this:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
You don't have to explain yourself to everyone. You can say, "I know it's hard to understand, sorry."
You could say "If you want to read more about it, I can give you some links."
-=-Same goes for the BUT in caps about being a visual learner, and pretty much everything else that jumped out at you-=-
Learning styles are fine to think about, but not to marry. No one has a single style. It's good to offer an array of input and stimuli and then a child learns in a multi-dimensional way. Nothing is as good for that as unschooling is.
Rather than thinking of reading and writing in terms of "visual learning" (what else would there be? Spelling-bee-style audio?), think of it (IF you have to; maybe you can just let it all go) in terms of "look-say" vs. phonics. Learning by the shape and appearance of the words. But you know what? In the case of a single child learning to read (or learning anything) it's not really any of our business what methods he uses, except out of our curiosity to learn.
If I'm hired to train a bunch of warehouse workers to follow procedures, THEN it matters how I present it and how they learn, because I want to keep my job and justify my salary by proving results.
There is no factory, not to work in, not to produce "students" from.
There's only learning.
Maybe look at the five senses part of this:
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
> And at nine he's not stumped about what to do when he sees a newIs he telling you that it's getting in the way of "any enjoyment"?
> word (he just asks what it is), but his current inability to come
> close to spelling many of the words he has in his *spoken*
> vocabulary -- the ones he'd want to use in composition -- gets in
> the way of any enjoyment he would get out of "sitting down and
> writing" on his own.
Maybe that's a layer you're putting on this, assuming he would better
enjoy doing it himself.
> That's why we've found other ways for him to record his ideas eitherThis is great. I wrote my daughter's ideas down as she dictated them.
> on his own or with our help. And his ideas come so fast and with
> such enthusiasm that I'll drop just about anything to get him set up
> with whatever he wants/needs to record them.
Or typed them out. And read them back to her, so she could change
something or just for her to enjoy her own tale-telling.
>Why is he trying to sound out a word? You could tell him that it's
> And if he tries to sound out a word -- something my in-laws will
> sometimes ask him to do if he asks one of them about a word they
> think he should know -- forget it. By the time he's gotten to the
> end of the word, he can't remember what the beginning sounds were.
> Not uncommon for visual learners, but not what most people are used
> to because that's not how they "teach reading" in school.
okay not to.
Tell your in-laws not to ask him to sound out words! Tell them how he
learns words and that sounding things out stops his learning in its
tracks. Tell them that there are new and exciting ways to learn to
read and write and phonics isn't one of them. It isn't okay for them
to quiz him, so be right there if it happens again. He doesn't need to
be shamed for that. That's the kind of thing that happens in school.
Step away from school :-)
Robin B.
delphini004
***** -- You don't have to explain yourself to everyone. You can say, "I know it's hard to understand, sorry."
You could say "If you want to read more about it, I can give you some links."-- *****
That would be a good post for Just Add Light and Stir; I would have like someone to tell me that long ago. I always feel kind of forced to answer to everyone who asks questions, as if I was accountable for what I do and how I do it. Probably reminiscents of my education.
***** -- But you know what? In the case of a single child learning to read (or learning anything) it's not really any of our business what methods he uses, except out of our curiosity to learn. -- *****
Same thing for this one !
Edith
You could say "If you want to read more about it, I can give you some links."-- *****
That would be a good post for Just Add Light and Stir; I would have like someone to tell me that long ago. I always feel kind of forced to answer to everyone who asks questions, as if I was accountable for what I do and how I do it. Probably reminiscents of my education.
***** -- But you know what? In the case of a single child learning to read (or learning anything) it's not really any of our business what methods he uses, except out of our curiosity to learn. -- *****
Same thing for this one !
Edith