Preparing for Unschooling
catfish_friend
If this is better posted to AlwaysUnschooled, please let me know...
Our family is not Unschooling, but I think it is realistic that two years from now (or sooner) that we will be or will be clearly moving towards Unschooling as a family.
DH and I are on the same page currently about:
- honoring our children's requests to be at school or not
- learning happens all the time
- providing rich, interesting opportunities, activities, playthings related to current interests without expecting they must engage
- trying to anticipate needs for sleep, food, fun rather than wait for problems to arise from lack thereof
- detaching from school
What we are not in agreement of:
- what Unschooling or radical Unschooling is
- releasing limits on TV, "junk" food, sleep
- trying to say "yes" when and however possible so long as it is not an infringement on another's rights or needs
- partnership to children vs. authoritarian parenting
- how to balance priorities (children, parents, practical needs, etc.)
DD1 (age 5) has gone to a new kindergarten about half the days it has been in session this year. When she wants to go, she is happily wakes up early and practically bolts out te door. What is unusual is she has recently been asking to nurse at bedtime though she weaned (abruptly and tearfully) during DD2's pregnancy when DD1 was 2.5. I started to wean her because I could not endure the nursing physically or emotionally though I had hoped to tandem nurse. DD1 did choose to own the weaning herself by saying that she didn't want to nurse anymore. DD1 has also intensified her skin eating habit (off her fingertips -- ouch). I notice that there is an amount of stress and sibling rivalry that has intensified since she started school, and have (with suggestion from this list) told her that to continue going to her school, she must be respectful of her little sister's need to be and to feel safe in her own home.
DD2 is enrolled at the free-play preschool DD1 had attended for two years prior. Today was the second day she went. I agreed to send her today on the condition that the teachers call me if and when DD2 asks for me or to nurse so that I could come get her. DD2 is very familiar and comfortable at this preschool and with the teachers, but I was working the last school year and hardly saw my children during their waking hours. There were far too many tearful and hysterical goodbyes during that time.
I want DD2 to stay home with me right now, but DD2 at 2.5 very much imitates DD1 and with DD1 going to school, DD2 wants to go, too. But DD2 all of last week said that she hated the preschool and wanted to stay with me. So, she didn't attend. Last night, she packed her own lunch for school and couldn't get there soon enough this morning. She also told us when she wanted to give DH and I goodbye kisses.
I told DD2 that if she wanted mommy or to nurse to tell the teachers and I would come get her. She smiled when I said this and sure enough, this morning before her scheduled pick-up, DD2 told her teacher she wanted her family to come get her. I went to pick her up. She was thrilled to see me and started tidying her markers singing a tidying song.
The teachers have expressed that while they are OK doing this today, that they don't want to do this long-term. The school's position is that 2 and 3 year olds begin processing their dependence and independence and that the school wants to help the kids figure out these challenges on their own and/or with the teachers' help.
My take on the school's stance is that it is in the school's interest to help kids separate from their parents and bond more to the teachers rather than prioritize the child's expressed needs and desires to reconnect with their primary caregiver (who they usually ask for).
My priority is to empower my 2.5 year old with regard to her separation from me and to re-establish her trust that I am available for her since I was unavailable for the better part of a year. DH thinks that DD2 attending school would fulfill my need for time to take care of some business things and bills as I do complain about lack of time. He also doesn't want to lose our spot at this school (small and in high demand) not to mention piss them off.
I have suggested getting a mother's helper instead so that I can get work done during business hours but DD2 could check in with me as she needed to. I know this would take time and energy that we don't really have right now. Not to mention, it is my experience that it is extremely difficult to find fun, affordable, respectful caregivers in our area.
Given these things, I suggested the school call me when DD2 asks for me. I thought it would be a good current resolution taking into account everyone's concerns and desires.
But, knowing that the school in the long-term will not honor DD2's requests for me, I am feeling I should take her out altogether.
In general, I feel I have been doing my best to balance DH, and DDs' expressed needs and desires against my own strong desire to unschool.
After attending the Good Vibrations conference, seeing Holly Dodd and Rose Sorooshian's self-assuredness and sparkliness, saying yes more myself, having more fun and also reflecting on ideas expressed in "Hold On To Your Kids", I have different lenses than the rest of my family. I can see "better" as a destination from here, though here is satisfactory for the rest of my family. The thing I am most concerned about is DDs' becoming more interested in their peers for guidance and approval than being in a trusting, respectful partnership with their parents. I feel school, even now is a slippery slope with what I am observing and the challenges I am dealing with their respective schools' expectations and conditions.
I have a consistent track record with projecting into the future and I can see that what is satisfactory for my family now will likely be unsatisfactory within 2 years' time.
In the meantime, I am trying for balance and patience as I understand from what i've gained on this list that I can't force Unschooling on my family.
I have two questions:
How can i best balance my family's needs while preparing to unschool and have it be peaceful and joyful?
What kind of experience do successful Unschoolers have with regard to an older sibling wanting to nurse again? My knee-jerk reaction is disgust at doing it, but I know that DD1 really wants to nurse, perhaps as a way to reconnect after the stress of separation...
As always, I greatly appreciate the thoughtful wisdom and feedback from this list.
Ceci
Sent from my iDon'tAlwaysHaveItOnPhone
Our family is not Unschooling, but I think it is realistic that two years from now (or sooner) that we will be or will be clearly moving towards Unschooling as a family.
DH and I are on the same page currently about:
- honoring our children's requests to be at school or not
- learning happens all the time
- providing rich, interesting opportunities, activities, playthings related to current interests without expecting they must engage
- trying to anticipate needs for sleep, food, fun rather than wait for problems to arise from lack thereof
- detaching from school
What we are not in agreement of:
- what Unschooling or radical Unschooling is
- releasing limits on TV, "junk" food, sleep
- trying to say "yes" when and however possible so long as it is not an infringement on another's rights or needs
- partnership to children vs. authoritarian parenting
- how to balance priorities (children, parents, practical needs, etc.)
DD1 (age 5) has gone to a new kindergarten about half the days it has been in session this year. When she wants to go, she is happily wakes up early and practically bolts out te door. What is unusual is she has recently been asking to nurse at bedtime though she weaned (abruptly and tearfully) during DD2's pregnancy when DD1 was 2.5. I started to wean her because I could not endure the nursing physically or emotionally though I had hoped to tandem nurse. DD1 did choose to own the weaning herself by saying that she didn't want to nurse anymore. DD1 has also intensified her skin eating habit (off her fingertips -- ouch). I notice that there is an amount of stress and sibling rivalry that has intensified since she started school, and have (with suggestion from this list) told her that to continue going to her school, she must be respectful of her little sister's need to be and to feel safe in her own home.
DD2 is enrolled at the free-play preschool DD1 had attended for two years prior. Today was the second day she went. I agreed to send her today on the condition that the teachers call me if and when DD2 asks for me or to nurse so that I could come get her. DD2 is very familiar and comfortable at this preschool and with the teachers, but I was working the last school year and hardly saw my children during their waking hours. There were far too many tearful and hysterical goodbyes during that time.
I want DD2 to stay home with me right now, but DD2 at 2.5 very much imitates DD1 and with DD1 going to school, DD2 wants to go, too. But DD2 all of last week said that she hated the preschool and wanted to stay with me. So, she didn't attend. Last night, she packed her own lunch for school and couldn't get there soon enough this morning. She also told us when she wanted to give DH and I goodbye kisses.
I told DD2 that if she wanted mommy or to nurse to tell the teachers and I would come get her. She smiled when I said this and sure enough, this morning before her scheduled pick-up, DD2 told her teacher she wanted her family to come get her. I went to pick her up. She was thrilled to see me and started tidying her markers singing a tidying song.
The teachers have expressed that while they are OK doing this today, that they don't want to do this long-term. The school's position is that 2 and 3 year olds begin processing their dependence and independence and that the school wants to help the kids figure out these challenges on their own and/or with the teachers' help.
My take on the school's stance is that it is in the school's interest to help kids separate from their parents and bond more to the teachers rather than prioritize the child's expressed needs and desires to reconnect with their primary caregiver (who they usually ask for).
My priority is to empower my 2.5 year old with regard to her separation from me and to re-establish her trust that I am available for her since I was unavailable for the better part of a year. DH thinks that DD2 attending school would fulfill my need for time to take care of some business things and bills as I do complain about lack of time. He also doesn't want to lose our spot at this school (small and in high demand) not to mention piss them off.
I have suggested getting a mother's helper instead so that I can get work done during business hours but DD2 could check in with me as she needed to. I know this would take time and energy that we don't really have right now. Not to mention, it is my experience that it is extremely difficult to find fun, affordable, respectful caregivers in our area.
Given these things, I suggested the school call me when DD2 asks for me. I thought it would be a good current resolution taking into account everyone's concerns and desires.
But, knowing that the school in the long-term will not honor DD2's requests for me, I am feeling I should take her out altogether.
In general, I feel I have been doing my best to balance DH, and DDs' expressed needs and desires against my own strong desire to unschool.
After attending the Good Vibrations conference, seeing Holly Dodd and Rose Sorooshian's self-assuredness and sparkliness, saying yes more myself, having more fun and also reflecting on ideas expressed in "Hold On To Your Kids", I have different lenses than the rest of my family. I can see "better" as a destination from here, though here is satisfactory for the rest of my family. The thing I am most concerned about is DDs' becoming more interested in their peers for guidance and approval than being in a trusting, respectful partnership with their parents. I feel school, even now is a slippery slope with what I am observing and the challenges I am dealing with their respective schools' expectations and conditions.
I have a consistent track record with projecting into the future and I can see that what is satisfactory for my family now will likely be unsatisfactory within 2 years' time.
In the meantime, I am trying for balance and patience as I understand from what i've gained on this list that I can't force Unschooling on my family.
I have two questions:
How can i best balance my family's needs while preparing to unschool and have it be peaceful and joyful?
What kind of experience do successful Unschoolers have with regard to an older sibling wanting to nurse again? My knee-jerk reaction is disgust at doing it, but I know that DD1 really wants to nurse, perhaps as a way to reconnect after the stress of separation...
As always, I greatly appreciate the thoughtful wisdom and feedback from this list.
Ceci
Sent from my iDon'tAlwaysHaveItOnPhone
Sandra Dodd
-=- I started to wean her because I could not endure the nursing physically or emotionally though I had hoped to tandem nurse. -=-
My kids were that way. I forced myself to nurse Kirby for six months after Marty was born, but it was repulsive and I was going against instinct, just because I thought it would be nice to do. It was hard, and I was jealous other moms were doing it easily.
Your situation is post-weaning. I would try a bottle and a rocking chair instead. She probably won't remember how to nurse anymore, and it could be more disappointing and frustrating than comforting.
-=-I want DD2 to stay home with me right now, but DD2 at 2.5 very much imitates DD1 and with DD1 going to school, DD2 wants to go, too. But DD2 all of last week said that she hated the preschool and wanted to stay with me. So, she didn't attend. Last night, she packed her own lunch for school and couldn't get there soon enough this morning. She also told us when she wanted to give DH and I goodbye kisses.-=-
I don't think Always Unschooled would be a better list for this. I don't think much of it as a list at all; the originator wanted to be more important than she was here, and didn't like people saying she should wait until her children definitely didn't go to school before assuring people she had "always unschooled." People have brought bad advice back from there.
But the post you sent is largely about school, and the problems of kindergarten and preschool, and the effects of it on your family. That is not appropriate for this list.
-=- He also doesn't want to lose our spot at this school (small and in high demand) not to mention piss them off.-=-
This doesn't match your claim that you and your husband are agreed on moving away from school.
You are attached to school. You are using school.
-=-How can i best balance my family's needs while preparing to unschool and have it be peaceful and joyful?-=-
School is very bad preparation for unschooling, and so I don't think you should consider this time "deschooling" or detaching from school. Someday you might do that, but for now, you're the bad mom of schoolkids, from the school's point of view. And having been a teacher, I understand that point of view. School can't treat each child different, or involve each child's mother on her own terms, not even pre-school. It's not the way it works.
-=-What we are not in agreement of:
- what Unschooling or radical Unschooling is
- releasing limits on TV, "junk" food, sleep
- trying to say "yes" when and however possible so long as it is not an infringement on another's rights or needs
- partnership to children vs. authoritarian parenting
- how to balance priorities (children, parents, practical needs, etc.)-=-
Don't do more than your husband is willing to do.
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
Intact families provided the base from which Rose Sorooshian and Holly Dodd lived to sparkly adulthood.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My kids were that way. I forced myself to nurse Kirby for six months after Marty was born, but it was repulsive and I was going against instinct, just because I thought it would be nice to do. It was hard, and I was jealous other moms were doing it easily.
Your situation is post-weaning. I would try a bottle and a rocking chair instead. She probably won't remember how to nurse anymore, and it could be more disappointing and frustrating than comforting.
-=-I want DD2 to stay home with me right now, but DD2 at 2.5 very much imitates DD1 and with DD1 going to school, DD2 wants to go, too. But DD2 all of last week said that she hated the preschool and wanted to stay with me. So, she didn't attend. Last night, she packed her own lunch for school and couldn't get there soon enough this morning. She also told us when she wanted to give DH and I goodbye kisses.-=-
I don't think Always Unschooled would be a better list for this. I don't think much of it as a list at all; the originator wanted to be more important than she was here, and didn't like people saying she should wait until her children definitely didn't go to school before assuring people she had "always unschooled." People have brought bad advice back from there.
But the post you sent is largely about school, and the problems of kindergarten and preschool, and the effects of it on your family. That is not appropriate for this list.
-=- He also doesn't want to lose our spot at this school (small and in high demand) not to mention piss them off.-=-
This doesn't match your claim that you and your husband are agreed on moving away from school.
You are attached to school. You are using school.
-=-How can i best balance my family's needs while preparing to unschool and have it be peaceful and joyful?-=-
School is very bad preparation for unschooling, and so I don't think you should consider this time "deschooling" or detaching from school. Someday you might do that, but for now, you're the bad mom of schoolkids, from the school's point of view. And having been a teacher, I understand that point of view. School can't treat each child different, or involve each child's mother on her own terms, not even pre-school. It's not the way it works.
-=-What we are not in agreement of:
- what Unschooling or radical Unschooling is
- releasing limits on TV, "junk" food, sleep
- trying to say "yes" when and however possible so long as it is not an infringement on another's rights or needs
- partnership to children vs. authoritarian parenting
- how to balance priorities (children, parents, practical needs, etc.)-=-
Don't do more than your husband is willing to do.
http://sandradodd.com/spouses
http://sandradodd.com/divorce
Intact families provided the base from which Rose Sorooshian and Holly Dodd lived to sparkly adulthood.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
On Sep 22, 2011, at 2:49 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Thanks for this suggestion. I should mention that she attempts to latch on without asking while I'm nursing my 2.5 year old at bedtime. My reaction (without thinking -- like a reflex) was to immediately nudge her off. Would introducing a pacifier be a strange offer at age 5? I think it would likely draw unwanted attention if she used it in public. She hardly ever used a pacifier as a baby since we nursed on demand until she was weaned. Any other good "mouth-feel" substitutes?
Ceci
> Your situation is post-weaning. I would try a bottle and a rocking chair instead. She probably won't remember how to nurse anymore, and it could be more disappointing and frustrating than comforting.--------
Thanks for this suggestion. I should mention that she attempts to latch on without asking while I'm nursing my 2.5 year old at bedtime. My reaction (without thinking -- like a reflex) was to immediately nudge her off. Would introducing a pacifier be a strange offer at age 5? I think it would likely draw unwanted attention if she used it in public. She hardly ever used a pacifier as a baby since we nursed on demand until she was weaned. Any other good "mouth-feel" substitutes?
Ceci
catfish_friend
On Sep 22, 2011, at 2:49 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
Understood. But I am looking for input on the transition to Unschooling and there is no place to ask this but from Unschoolers who once figured out their transition to Unschooling.
Maybe I need a better question:
What is the best way to prepare for Unschooling if a child is asking for school at age 5, the husband is not on yet board with it (though he will be working 3 long weekdays a week and occasionally more) and it's clear that school is not working well?
--------
Yes, we are currently using school, but by saying we are detaching --
I meant that when either DD did not want to attend school, she stayed home. DH and I agreed on not making school compulsory. DH is willing to have them stay home if they make that choice. Because I am ready to keep them home, but don't want to discount DH's opinion, we are only pushing things as far away from school as DH is comfortable with. I agree with you that this is not deschooling, but we are beginning to unravel school.
--------
Yeah, I recognize that, which is why I never asked for special treatment until now. I am trying to figure out if I insist to DH that our 2.5 year old should stay home if I will be adding some instability to our marriage...
--------
I will definitely go back over those links -- I have read them at least 2 times before. I read Phil Biegler's story of becoming an Unschooling dad and in meeting other Unschooling parents, there seems to be a common enough thread of one parent being onboard with Unschooling and one reluctant. Is there ever a point where the onboard parent says that that's enough schoolishness when it's clearly not working?
In writing this email, I think I am ready to keep my 2.5 year old home and to insist on that, though I will listen to DH's thoughts on it and consider them so we can come to an agreement.
DD1 told us today about a class bully who she's afraid of and also that she doesn't like the school rules (no running, no talking at some tables, etc.). If DD1 keeps asking to go to school joyfully, but it's all she's ever really known, and I know that she's beginning to have real challenges there, is it OK to make the Unschooling choice for her, or is it better to have her get to the point where she will make it herself?
Am I getting too much back into school concerns? I am trying to ask, how do Unschooling parents start Unschooling? How do you talk about it to your children? Is it a decision made with the child or not or is that based on their age?
Ceci
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But the post you sent is largely about school, and the problems of kindergarten and preschool, and the effects of it on your family. That is not appropriate for this list.--------
Understood. But I am looking for input on the transition to Unschooling and there is no place to ask this but from Unschoolers who once figured out their transition to Unschooling.
Maybe I need a better question:
What is the best way to prepare for Unschooling if a child is asking for school at age 5, the husband is not on yet board with it (though he will be working 3 long weekdays a week and occasionally more) and it's clear that school is not working well?
--------
> -=- He also doesn't want to lose our spot at this school (small and in high demand) not to mention piss them off.-=---------
>
> This doesn't match your claim that you and your husband are agreed on moving away from school.
> You are attached to school. You are using school.
Yes, we are currently using school, but by saying we are detaching --
I meant that when either DD did not want to attend school, she stayed home. DH and I agreed on not making school compulsory. DH is willing to have them stay home if they make that choice. Because I am ready to keep them home, but don't want to discount DH's opinion, we are only pushing things as far away from school as DH is comfortable with. I agree with you that this is not deschooling, but we are beginning to unravel school.
--------
> School is very bad preparation for unschooling, and so I don't think you should consider this time "deschooling" or detaching from school. Someday you might do that, but for now, you're the bad mom of schoolkids, from the school's point of view. And having been a teacher, I understand that point of view. School can't treat each child different, or involve each child's mother on her own terms, not even pre-school. It's not the way it works.--------
Yeah, I recognize that, which is why I never asked for special treatment until now. I am trying to figure out if I insist to DH that our 2.5 year old should stay home if I will be adding some instability to our marriage...
--------
> -=-What we are not in agreement of:--------
>
> - what Unschooling or radical Unschooling is
> - releasing limits on TV, "junk" food, sleep
> - trying to say "yes" when and however possible so long as it is not an infringement on another's rights or needs
> - partnership to children vs. authoritarian parenting
> - how to balance priorities (children, parents, practical needs, etc.)-=-
>
> Don't do more than your husband is willing to do.
>
> http://sandradodd.com/spouses
> http://sandradodd.com/divorce
>
> Intact families provided the base from which Rose Sorooshian and Holly Dodd lived to sparkly adulthood.
I will definitely go back over those links -- I have read them at least 2 times before. I read Phil Biegler's story of becoming an Unschooling dad and in meeting other Unschooling parents, there seems to be a common enough thread of one parent being onboard with Unschooling and one reluctant. Is there ever a point where the onboard parent says that that's enough schoolishness when it's clearly not working?
In writing this email, I think I am ready to keep my 2.5 year old home and to insist on that, though I will listen to DH's thoughts on it and consider them so we can come to an agreement.
DD1 told us today about a class bully who she's afraid of and also that she doesn't like the school rules (no running, no talking at some tables, etc.). If DD1 keeps asking to go to school joyfully, but it's all she's ever really known, and I know that she's beginning to have real challenges there, is it OK to make the Unschooling choice for her, or is it better to have her get to the point where she will make it herself?
Am I getting too much back into school concerns? I am trying to ask, how do Unschooling parents start Unschooling? How do you talk about it to your children? Is it a decision made with the child or not or is that based on their age?
Ceci
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 23, 2011, at 2:23 AM, catfish_friend wrote:
How do you prepare for the child to play piano when the child has
chosen tuba but is not enjoying it?
might it tear at the relationship?
problem -- one parent is making the educational decisions and the
other is trusting them.
Some husbands will go along to avoid strife. Going along shouldn't be
mistaken for agreement. It's a straw they're willing to bear to get
something else (peace in the marriage). Those straws do (silently)
accumulate and can result in a foot that comes slamming down that
*seems* out of nowhere but really isn't.
Insisting isn't good. It tends to raise people's defenses. He might
back down or give in but be aware that you only get so many "straws"
he'll accept. (And each person is different on how many!)
You could say this is something really important to you. It's
something you really really believe in whole heartedly and you're not
seeing a way around the damage school is causing. And then ask him
what things you can do that would make him feel more comfortable with
the change. And then do them. And keep revisiting his discomfort and
what's working to help, what might work better, so he feels you care
about his feelings.
to put up with crap to get.
By the number of unschoolers who say it's OK?
Or by the effect on her? We can't know that. We *can* help you think
about it by discussing typical actions, reactions, needs. But only you
can figure out what might or might not be okay with your daughter.
The more invested she is in the decision, the more invested she'll be
in staying home. When one person overrides another person's wishes, it
tends to magnify what they liked about their choice and minimize what
they didn't like. And same, but reversed, with what was forced on
them. So mom really need to nail the choice she's insisting on, make
it better than the child expects. Otherwise when things go wrong with
the new way, there's likely to be resentment and blaming the mom for
making them switch.
Some kids really don't like change or decisions so might willing to
put up with a crap load of crap to avoid change. If you feel this is
the case, then this might be something you want to spend one of the
handful of "straws" each relationship is willing to forgive in the
other.
Only you can decide based on what you're willing to risk to get what
you hope to gain, the possible pros and cons, and the specific mix of
personalities in your family.
that unschoolers get until you are unschooling. There are benefits
from looking at school differently, from using some of the principles
of unschooling in your interactions with your families. But what the
effects of mixing it with what else you're doing can't be extrapolated
from the effects unschoolers get who've gotten rid of what gets in the
way of unschooling.
more likely she'll hold onto her decision. School is her decision and
you're trying to pry it out of her hands before she's ready to give it
up. You'll make her grip tighter.
What you can do is make her life outside of school sparkly in ways
that she enjoys so she *chooses* that over school that's looking less
sparkly in comparison.
What does she love about school? How can you offer something similar
or better at home? What can't she do at school that you can offer at
home?
But do recognize she has needs when she comes home from school. If she
needs to depressurize and you want to put on an unschooling show, it's
likely to fail. Tend to her needs rather than your needs for her.
Joyce
> What is the best way to prepare for Unschooling if a child is askingLive more in the moment.
> for school at age 5, the husband is not on yet board with it (though
> he will be working 3 long weekdays a week and occasionally more) and
> it's clear that school is not working well?
How do you prepare for the child to play piano when the child has
chosen tuba but is not enjoying it?
> Yeah, I recognize that, which is why I never asked for specialIf you insist your child go to school or stay home against her wishes,
> treatment until now. I am trying to figure out if I insist to DH
> that our 2.5 year old should stay home if I will be adding some
> instability to our marriage...
might it tear at the relationship?
> I will definitely go back over those links -- I have read them atMore often -- though it doesn't get brought up since it's not a
> least 2 times before. I read Phil Biegler's story of becoming an
> Unschooling dad and in meeting other Unschooling parents, there
> seems to be a common enough thread of one parent being onboard with
> Unschooling and one reluctant. Is there ever a point where the
> onboard parent says that that's enough schoolishness when it's
> clearly not working?
problem -- one parent is making the educational decisions and the
other is trusting them.
Some husbands will go along to avoid strife. Going along shouldn't be
mistaken for agreement. It's a straw they're willing to bear to get
something else (peace in the marriage). Those straws do (silently)
accumulate and can result in a foot that comes slamming down that
*seems* out of nowhere but really isn't.
Insisting isn't good. It tends to raise people's defenses. He might
back down or give in but be aware that you only get so many "straws"
he'll accept. (And each person is different on how many!)
You could say this is something really important to you. It's
something you really really believe in whole heartedly and you're not
seeing a way around the damage school is causing. And then ask him
what things you can do that would make him feel more comfortable with
the change. And then do them. And keep revisiting his discomfort and
what's working to help, what might work better, so he feels you care
about his feelings.
> If DD1 keeps asking to go to school joyfully, but it's all she'sThere are clearly some things she's really enjoying that she's willing
> ever really known, and I know that she's beginning to have real
> challenges there,
to put up with crap to get.
> is it OK to make the Unschooling choice for her, or is it better toWhat are you judging OK by?
> have her get to the point where she will make it herself?
By the number of unschoolers who say it's OK?
Or by the effect on her? We can't know that. We *can* help you think
about it by discussing typical actions, reactions, needs. But only you
can figure out what might or might not be okay with your daughter.
The more invested she is in the decision, the more invested she'll be
in staying home. When one person overrides another person's wishes, it
tends to magnify what they liked about their choice and minimize what
they didn't like. And same, but reversed, with what was forced on
them. So mom really need to nail the choice she's insisting on, make
it better than the child expects. Otherwise when things go wrong with
the new way, there's likely to be resentment and blaming the mom for
making them switch.
Some kids really don't like change or decisions so might willing to
put up with a crap load of crap to avoid change. If you feel this is
the case, then this might be something you want to spend one of the
handful of "straws" each relationship is willing to forgive in the
other.
Only you can decide based on what you're willing to risk to get what
you hope to gain, the possible pros and cons, and the specific mix of
personalities in your family.
> how do Unschooling parents start Unschooling?By not sending their kids to school. You can't get the same benefits
that unschoolers get until you are unschooling. There are benefits
from looking at school differently, from using some of the principles
of unschooling in your interactions with your families. But what the
effects of mixing it with what else you're doing can't be extrapolated
from the effects unschoolers get who've gotten rid of what gets in the
way of unschooling.
> How do you talk about it to your children? Is it a decision madeThe more you pressure her to make the decision you want her to, the
> with the child or not or is that based on their age?
more likely she'll hold onto her decision. School is her decision and
you're trying to pry it out of her hands before she's ready to give it
up. You'll make her grip tighter.
What you can do is make her life outside of school sparkly in ways
that she enjoys so she *chooses* that over school that's looking less
sparkly in comparison.
What does she love about school? How can you offer something similar
or better at home? What can't she do at school that you can offer at
home?
But do recognize she has needs when she comes home from school. If she
needs to depressurize and you want to put on an unschooling show, it's
likely to fail. Tend to her needs rather than your needs for her.
Joyce
aldq75
-=- What is the best way to prepare for Unschooling if a child is asking for school at age 5, the husband is not on yet board with it (though he will be working 3 long weekdays a week and occasionally more) and it's clear that school is not working well? -=-
Perhaps your DH would be willing to move toward traditional homeschooling first and try that for a school year. It's not unschooling, but it could open the door to a more joyful life.
-=- DH is willing to have them stay home if they make that choice. -=-
-=- is it OK to make the Unschooling choice for her, or is it better to have her get to the point where she will make it herself? -=-
Expecting young children to make a decision about whether or not to attend school is putting an incredible amount of responsibility on their shoulders. There was a time in their lives when they knew nothing about school; you made the choice to introduce it to them. You could make the same decision about unschooling.
-=- I am trying to ask, how do
Unschooling parents start Unschooling? How do you talk about it to your
children? -=-
For us, unschooling grew out of attachment parenting and our belief system. We chose not to send our younger children to preschool or school. I don't know that any of my younger children (ages 5, 6 and 8) actually know the term "unschooling", because I always tell people (that ask) that we are homeschoolers. In general, we talk about ways to make our life happier, not about school.
Andrea Q
Perhaps your DH would be willing to move toward traditional homeschooling first and try that for a school year. It's not unschooling, but it could open the door to a more joyful life.
-=- DH is willing to have them stay home if they make that choice. -=-
-=- is it OK to make the Unschooling choice for her, or is it better to have her get to the point where she will make it herself? -=-
Expecting young children to make a decision about whether or not to attend school is putting an incredible amount of responsibility on their shoulders. There was a time in their lives when they knew nothing about school; you made the choice to introduce it to them. You could make the same decision about unschooling.
-=- I am trying to ask, how do
Unschooling parents start Unschooling? How do you talk about it to your
children? -=-
For us, unschooling grew out of attachment parenting and our belief system. We chose not to send our younger children to preschool or school. I don't know that any of my younger children (ages 5, 6 and 8) actually know the term "unschooling", because I always tell people (that ask) that we are homeschoolers. In general, we talk about ways to make our life happier, not about school.
Andrea Q
--- In [email protected], catfish_friend <catfish_friend@...> wrote:
Sandra Dodd
-=-What is the best way to prepare for Unschooling if a child is asking for school at age 5, the husband is not on yet board with it (though he will be working 3 long weekdays a week and occasionally more) and it's clear that school is not working well?-=-
Clear to your husband?
The less he's home, the less he will see it working. If you're thinking that if he's not home it's not his call, you take a step away from solidity in the relationship. I doubt he's working for fun, or to avoid you. He's working so you can have a house together, and your children can have clothes and food, right?
-=-Yes, we are currently using school, but by saying we are detaching --
-=-I meant that when either DD did not want to attend school, she stayed home.-=-
Sure. But that's still not homeschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
It might make your husband feel better about homeschooling. It will certainly make school less attractive to your daughter, as the teachers and other children might resent and comment on her absences, and it might increase bullying. She will be more confused and less with-it at school. So as sabotage of the school's success, it can be a good tool, if you mean to do that.
"DH and I agreed on not making school compulsory."
Compulsory schooling is a legal term, not a casual around-the-house term. You might be breaking the law by having her out more than a certain number of days, or by having her home when she's not sick.
-=-I am trying to figure out if I insist to DH that our 2.5 year old should stay home if I will be adding some instability to our marriage...-=-
There is no compulsory schooling for two year olds. Nor three. So THIS part of the discussion is not about unschooling at all, is it?
-=-I will definitely go back over those links -- I have read them at least 2 times before.-=-
I'm assuming there are some songs (recordings by particular artists) you've heard more than two times. Maybe there are movies you've watched more than twice.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch. Reading something isn't much. Reading it again without much more trying, waiting and watching might be no more than glancing over words. But reading it after months, or years, from a new perspective, it will reveal new facets to you that you were entirely unable to see the first or second time.
-=- If DD1 keeps asking to go to school joyfully, but it's all she's ever really known, and I know that she's beginning to have real challenges there, is it OK to make the Unschooling choice for her, or is it better to have her get to the point where she will make it herself?-=-
"Is it OK" isn't the question you should be asking.
All your questions would work better if you were asking why rather than what.
"It's OK" meaning it's legal, meaning people won't shun you, meaning lots of other parents would coo and say "do it."
School damages children when they have no choice about where they are. Homeschoolers can do the same kind of damage school does, if they're not careful. If a child chooses to be at school, knowing there are options, you're already taking away some of the power of school. (Please read the school choice link.)
-=-Am I getting too much back into school concerns? I am trying to ask, how do Unschooling parents start Unschooling? How do you talk about it to your children? Is it a decision made with the child or not or is that based on their age?-=-
Parents agree.
Then they take the kids out of school.
You put your children in at two (at least one of them) so that complicates your own situation. You live in the midst of school concerns.
-=-How do you talk about it to your children? -=-
Until your husband agrees, maybe you shouldn't talk about it to the older one. The baby who doesn't have to go to to school and isn't a candidate for homeschooling either is a different matter. If you plan fun things to do and ask her to do them, she might rather be with you than at school.
Don't offer the older girl an option she doesn't really have; that would be cruel and confusing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Clear to your husband?
The less he's home, the less he will see it working. If you're thinking that if he's not home it's not his call, you take a step away from solidity in the relationship. I doubt he's working for fun, or to avoid you. He's working so you can have a house together, and your children can have clothes and food, right?
-=-Yes, we are currently using school, but by saying we are detaching --
-=-I meant that when either DD did not want to attend school, she stayed home.-=-
Sure. But that's still not homeschooling.
http://sandradodd.com/schoolchoice
It might make your husband feel better about homeschooling. It will certainly make school less attractive to your daughter, as the teachers and other children might resent and comment on her absences, and it might increase bullying. She will be more confused and less with-it at school. So as sabotage of the school's success, it can be a good tool, if you mean to do that.
"DH and I agreed on not making school compulsory."
Compulsory schooling is a legal term, not a casual around-the-house term. You might be breaking the law by having her out more than a certain number of days, or by having her home when she's not sick.
-=-I am trying to figure out if I insist to DH that our 2.5 year old should stay home if I will be adding some instability to our marriage...-=-
There is no compulsory schooling for two year olds. Nor three. So THIS part of the discussion is not about unschooling at all, is it?
-=-I will definitely go back over those links -- I have read them at least 2 times before.-=-
I'm assuming there are some songs (recordings by particular artists) you've heard more than two times. Maybe there are movies you've watched more than twice.
Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch. Reading something isn't much. Reading it again without much more trying, waiting and watching might be no more than glancing over words. But reading it after months, or years, from a new perspective, it will reveal new facets to you that you were entirely unable to see the first or second time.
-=- If DD1 keeps asking to go to school joyfully, but it's all she's ever really known, and I know that she's beginning to have real challenges there, is it OK to make the Unschooling choice for her, or is it better to have her get to the point where she will make it herself?-=-
"Is it OK" isn't the question you should be asking.
All your questions would work better if you were asking why rather than what.
"It's OK" meaning it's legal, meaning people won't shun you, meaning lots of other parents would coo and say "do it."
School damages children when they have no choice about where they are. Homeschoolers can do the same kind of damage school does, if they're not careful. If a child chooses to be at school, knowing there are options, you're already taking away some of the power of school. (Please read the school choice link.)
-=-Am I getting too much back into school concerns? I am trying to ask, how do Unschooling parents start Unschooling? How do you talk about it to your children? Is it a decision made with the child or not or is that based on their age?-=-
Parents agree.
Then they take the kids out of school.
You put your children in at two (at least one of them) so that complicates your own situation. You live in the midst of school concerns.
-=-How do you talk about it to your children? -=-
Until your husband agrees, maybe you shouldn't talk about it to the older one. The baby who doesn't have to go to to school and isn't a candidate for homeschooling either is a different matter. If you plan fun things to do and ask her to do them, she might rather be with you than at school.
Don't offer the older girl an option she doesn't really have; that would be cruel and confusing.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
When my younger brother was an infant and I was 5 years old I asked my mom to nurse. I wasted that closeness and I wanted to see how good it was. She let me try it very nicelly. I could not get anything after a few seconds. I never asked to try again but it was nice my mom let me try it. I was happy. After that she would make me a bottle of milk with baby cereal ( a very tasty one they have in Brazil and I still like it) and give me in bed. It was heaven. I would ask for a bottle now and then until I was 13. I have to say that if I get a hold of that yummy baby cereal today I would still make my self a bottle and drink it in bed. Yep , at 45 I would still do it.
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: catfish_friend <catfish_friend@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Preparing for Unschooling
Alex Polikowsky
________________________________
From: catfish_friend <catfish_friend@...>
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2011 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Preparing for Unschooling
On Sep 22, 2011, at 2:49 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
> Your situation is post-weaning. I would try a bottle and a rocking chair instead. She probably won't remember how to nurse anymore, and it could be more disappointing and frustrating than comforting.
--------
Thanks for this suggestion. I should mention that she attempts to latch on without asking while I'm nursing my 2.5 year old at bedtime. My reaction (without thinking -- like a reflex) was to immediately nudge her off. Would introducing a pacifier be a strange offer at age 5? I think it would likely draw unwanted attention if she used it in public. She hardly ever used a pacifier as a baby since we nursed on demand until she was weaned. Any other good "mouth-feel" substitutes?
Ceci
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Angela
>>What is the best way to prepare for Unschooling if a child is asking for school at age 5, the husband is not on yet board with it (though he will be working 3 long weekdays a week and occasionally more) and it's clear that school is not working well?<<Re your child asking for school, but it not working:
Is it not working for her? Or you? Her coming home cranky doesn't nec. mean school's not working, maybe just that she needs time to decompress and recharge. And her talking about a "bully" may mean that she needs some guidance as to how to deal with this child. If she is committed to continuing at school and you keep pressuring her to come home, homeschooling isn't going to work.
But if she starts staying home more and more, you run the risk of getting in trouble for truancy, right? If she's torn about school -v-home, I might ask her what she likes about school and what she doesn't and then work on getting her more of what she wants at home. If it's the social aspect of being with a big group of kids, find homeschoolers her age in your area, join Daisy Scouts or 4H, gymnastics, dancing, etc. If she really likes art make sure you have lots of good materials available for her all the time.
Re your husband, would he be on board with "relaxed homeschooling" if he is not fully on board with unschooling?
what you said the two of you did not agree on is:
- what Unschooling or radical Unschooling is
- releasing limits on TV, "junk" food, sleep
- trying to say "yes" when and however possible so long as it is not an infringement on another's rights or needs
- partnership to children vs. authoritarian parenting
- how to balance priorities (children, parents, practical needs, etc.)
Do you really need him to agree on all those things before you pull your child from school if school is not working? And I don't mean go against his wishes, just that maybe you could ease into it a bit.
I think it's fair to say that my husband wasn't fully on board with unschooling when we decided to homeschool, but we were in full agreement that we should bring Joseph (my oldest) home if that's what he wanted. He totally agreed with not following a curriculum and not requiring certain subjects. BUT he WAS concerned about his "keeping up" with his classmates in case it didn't work out for some reason, and ultimately he left it to me to make sure that happened.
He agreed with unschooling as an "educational philosophy", but not so much a "lifestyle" or approach to parenting. Easing restrictions on TV, requiring chores, etc. and doing away with punishments came more gradually. There were definitely things that we would agree to try for a while and see what happened, and usually he saw the benefit in a short period of time rather than wanting to go back.
Around here, I'm the one that still struggles with "junk" food (though that's not a term I use). If your husband is concerned about what the kids are eating but you want to give your children freedom to eat what they want when, maybe just make sure there's nothing he considers "junk" in the house and give them freedom to choose that sort of thing when you're on outings, etc. That way your not setting up an adversarial "either I say no to my children or upset my husband" type situation.
>>Am I getting too much back into school concerns? I am trying to ask, how do Unschooling parents start Unschooling? How do you talk about it to your children? Is it a decision made with the child or not or is that based on their age?<<When we started homeschooling, the method we would follow was discussed between me and my husband, not so much with the kids. I don't know that my son, now 9, really even grasps that what we do is "unschooling," but we have talked about different types of homeschooling and ways of learning because he has friends that do school-at-home and was completely baffled when one asked him what time he starts school.
I never said, "Now you can watch as much TV as you want." I just stopped saying no. I don't know that he even noticed. We never said "No more bedtimes" we just stopped saying "It's 8 o'clock; time for bed." (Which is not to say that we don't ever help them into bed early if they seem tired and need it, it's just not arbitrary anymore.)
We left the decision to come home to our kids. I was pretty sure I wanted to pull Joseph out before the end of first grade, but knew that it had to be his decision if we had a fighting chance of having homeschooling work. We made that summer very sparkly for the kids, and then when we talked about school -v- homeschooling, I made it clear that our way of homeschooling would be just like what we had been doing all summer long, not just recreating school in our house.
Angela in NJ
with Joseph, 9; Hannah, 6; and Miriam, almost 4
Regan
On 23/09/2011, at 6:53 AM, catfish_friend wrote:
It would be better to focus on how to best support your your family members in meeting their needs as they are today. Being happy now is a good starting point for a happy future.
I'd be thinking of fundamental principles like helping your family live with joy, rather than a destination, like unschooling, and how to get there.
The particular circumstances of your family may mean that unschooling is not the best way to a happy family. You might miss out on whatever may be the best way, by focussing on unschooling, rather than helping joy, fun, growth, learning flourish in your family.
What need/s is school meeting for your daughters and husband? Is school the best or only way to meet those needs? It might be helpful to turn more towards your family to see beyond their "expressed needs and desires" and really try to see and understand who they are, what they may wish for, their passions, desires, what excites them, what they love, ; especially since you have had some disconnections in the past. That would then be a starting point for you to get creative and think about how you could help some of those needs be met.
And that can be an ongoing process to a more peaceful and joyful future, (which may or may not include unschooling).
Debbie.
> Our family is not Unschooling, but I think it is realistic that two years from now (or sooner) that we will be or will be clearly moving towards Unschooling as a family.Getting caught up in ideas of how the future might look, or how to achieve a particular scenario in the future will not help your family's wellbeing.
> I have a consistent track record with projecting into the future and I can see that what is satisfactory for my family now will likely be unsatisfactory within 2 years' time.
> In general, I feel I have been doing my best to balance DH, and DDs' expressed needs and desires against my own strong desire to unschool.
> In the meantime, I am trying for balance and patience as I understand from what i've gained on this list that I can't force Unschooling on my family.
> How can i best balance my family's needs while preparing to unschool and have it be peaceful and joyful?
It would be better to focus on how to best support your your family members in meeting their needs as they are today. Being happy now is a good starting point for a happy future.
I'd be thinking of fundamental principles like helping your family live with joy, rather than a destination, like unschooling, and how to get there.
The particular circumstances of your family may mean that unschooling is not the best way to a happy family. You might miss out on whatever may be the best way, by focussing on unschooling, rather than helping joy, fun, growth, learning flourish in your family.
What need/s is school meeting for your daughters and husband? Is school the best or only way to meet those needs? It might be helpful to turn more towards your family to see beyond their "expressed needs and desires" and really try to see and understand who they are, what they may wish for, their passions, desires, what excites them, what they love, ; especially since you have had some disconnections in the past. That would then be a starting point for you to get creative and think about how you could help some of those needs be met.
And that can be an ongoing process to a more peaceful and joyful future, (which may or may not include unschooling).
Debbie.
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
When my younger brother was an infant and I was 5 years old I asked my mom to nurse
.
I wasted that closeness----- means I * wanted* that closeness ( sorry about that!)
and I wanted to see how good it was. She let me try it very nicelly. I could not get anything after a few seconds. I never asked to try again but it was nice my mom let me try it. I was happy. After that she would make me a bottle of milk with baby cereal ( a very tasty one they have in Brazil and I still like it) and give me in bed. It was heaven. I would ask for a bottle now and then until I was 13. I have to say that if I get a hold of that yummy baby cereal today I would still make my self a bottle and drink it in bed. Yep , at 45 I would still do it.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
There's something niggling at me. It's this:
~=~ My priority is to empower my 2.5 year old with regard to her
separation from me and to re-establish her trust that I am available
for her since I was unavailable for the better part of a year. DH
thinks that DD2 attending school would fulfill my need for time to
take care of some business things and bills as I do complain about
lack of time. ~=~
I wonder how sending a 2.5 year old to school would re-establish her
trust in you?
Do your business interests and bills take precedence over your kids?
Unschooling takes time - a lot of time - with your children. It takes
commitment to make home better than school. It takes both parents to
see the value in unschooling (even if it's at different levels of
understanding at first) to make it work.
So I'm wondering if unschooling just seems like a cool idea. Your
husband seems worried about *you* and whether you can handle the bulk
of the responsibility for unschooling. Maybe that's where you need to
focus - on your own ability and willingness to do what it takes to
unschool. That might help both of you see that it's a possibility for
you as a family.
Robin B.
~=~ My priority is to empower my 2.5 year old with regard to her
separation from me and to re-establish her trust that I am available
for her since I was unavailable for the better part of a year. DH
thinks that DD2 attending school would fulfill my need for time to
take care of some business things and bills as I do complain about
lack of time. ~=~
I wonder how sending a 2.5 year old to school would re-establish her
trust in you?
Do your business interests and bills take precedence over your kids?
Unschooling takes time - a lot of time - with your children. It takes
commitment to make home better than school. It takes both parents to
see the value in unschooling (even if it's at different levels of
understanding at first) to make it work.
So I'm wondering if unschooling just seems like a cool idea. Your
husband seems worried about *you* and whether you can handle the bulk
of the responsibility for unschooling. Maybe that's where you need to
focus - on your own ability and willingness to do what it takes to
unschool. That might help both of you see that it's a possibility for
you as a family.
Robin B.
catfish_friend
On Sep 23, 2011, at 7:23 AM, "aldq75" <aldq75@...> wrote:
Ceci
> --------Expecting young children to make a decision about whether or not to attend school is putting an incredible amount of responsibility on their shoulders. There was a time in their lives when they knew nothing about school; you made the choice to introduce it to them. You could make the same decision about unschooling.--------Thanks, Andrea. That clarifies things for me. One of the things I really appreciate about this list is how members can shine a light on a casually accepted thing (parents choosing to send kids to school in this case) and juxtapose or transpose it (parents choosing to unschool) to see it better.
Ceci
emstrength3
>========Thanks for this suggestion. I should mention that she attempts to latch on without asking while I'm nursing my 2.5 year old at bedtime. My reaction (without thinking -- like a reflex) was to immediately nudge her off. Would introducing a pacifier be a strange offer at age 5? I think it would likely draw unwanted attention if she used it in public. She hardly ever used a pacifier as a baby since we nursed on demand until she was weaned. Any other good "mouth-feel" substitutes?===================
My oldest child would not take a bottle, pacifier or any other substitute (I was working otherwise I never would have even tried) when she was a baby. She nursed until she was 4.5 and then I weaned her. Right after that (or maybe right before, I don't remember for sure), she saw some pacifiers at the store and asked what they were. I told her and she immediately wanted to buy one with her own money. She sucked one for a few days, maybe a week and then never used it again.
It could make your daughter the subject of ridicule in public, but if you offered it as something to do when your 2 year old is nursing it might help.
Emily
emstrength3
========== Am I getting too much back into school concerns? I am trying to ask, how do Unschooling parents start Unschooling? How do you talk about it to your children? Is it a decision made with the child or not or is that based on their age?===========
Barring some major catastrophe, I will not even consider sending my children to school. My daughter asked a lot about school when she was 4, but now that she is school aged, she hardly mentions it. I worked really hard to make home a great place, to paint a realistic picture of school and to point out the things that she was able to do that she could not do if she were in school. I give my kids lots of choices and options- going to school is not one of them.
Emily
Barring some major catastrophe, I will not even consider sending my children to school. My daughter asked a lot about school when she was 4, but now that she is school aged, she hardly mentions it. I worked really hard to make home a great place, to paint a realistic picture of school and to point out the things that she was able to do that she could not do if she were in school. I give my kids lots of choices and options- going to school is not one of them.
Emily
catfish_friend
--//--When my younger brother was an infant and I was 5 years old I asked my mom to nurse. I wanted that closeness and I wanted to see how good it was. She let me try it very nicelly. I could not get anything after a few seconds. I never asked to try again but it was nice my mom let me try it. I was happy. After that she would make me a bottle of milk with baby cereal ( a very tasty one they have in Brazil and I still like it) and give me in bed. --//--
DD1 asked me unprompted if I would make her a bottle of rice milk for her at bedtime. Why didn't I think of that?!
Thanks to all for their stories and suggestions re: weaned child wanting to nurse.
Ceci
DD1 asked me unprompted if I would make her a bottle of rice milk for her at bedtime. Why didn't I think of that?!
Thanks to all for their stories and suggestions re: weaned child wanting to nurse.
Ceci
catfish_friend
++++Live more in the moment.++++
What if "happy" is different for each parent?
Do successful, happy Unschooling partnerships exist where one parent is passionate about learning and growth and change for the better while the other is reluctant or much less interested?
I think DH would be happy for our family to settle into DD1's Waldorf-y school community even though we both have reservations about the philosophy. He's a happier, better parent with less childcare responsibilities. He is willing to work to afford a standard of living that's beyond what I need.
I want a joyful, connected family and peace and joy in our home. I have concerns that our 5 year old is already rolling her eyes at DH and me. She is actively defiant with DH everyday. (They have wonderful, connected times, too.) She doesn't like to discuss what she did at school.
This is not terribly troubling for DH but I am greatly concerned. I see Unschooling as the only way to ensure a joyful, connected family. Am I being too narrow-minded?
Ceci
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>Thank you, Joyce and Deb for reminding me to be here now...and to be happy now!
> ****It would be better to focus on how to best support your your family members in meeting their needs as they are today. (snip) ...helping your family live with joy, rather than a destination, like unschooling, and how to get there.
>
>
> The particular circumstances of your family may mean that unschooling is not the best way to a happy family. You might miss out on whatever may be the best way, by focussing on unschooling, rather than helping joy, fun, growth, learning flourish in your family.****
What if "happy" is different for each parent?
Do successful, happy Unschooling partnerships exist where one parent is passionate about learning and growth and change for the better while the other is reluctant or much less interested?
I think DH would be happy for our family to settle into DD1's Waldorf-y school community even though we both have reservations about the philosophy. He's a happier, better parent with less childcare responsibilities. He is willing to work to afford a standard of living that's beyond what I need.
I want a joyful, connected family and peace and joy in our home. I have concerns that our 5 year old is already rolling her eyes at DH and me. She is actively defiant with DH everyday. (They have wonderful, connected times, too.) She doesn't like to discuss what she did at school.
This is not terribly troubling for DH but I am greatly concerned. I see Unschooling as the only way to ensure a joyful, connected family. Am I being too narrow-minded?
Ceci
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
:://::Your husband seems worried about *you* and whether you can handle the bulk of the responsibility for unschooling. Maybe that's where you need to focus - on your own ability and willingness to do what it takes to unschool. :://::
Thank you, Robin for pointing me back to what I DO have the ability to work on -- me! I was reading Sandra's page on how to screw up Unschooling and thought it a great list of things to really get one's head and actions around before insisting on a change to Unschooling. This, in addition to my husband's specific concerns.
www.Sandradodd.com/screwitup
Ceci
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Thank you, Robin for pointing me back to what I DO have the ability to work on -- me! I was reading Sandra's page on how to screw up Unschooling and thought it a great list of things to really get one's head and actions around before insisting on a change to Unschooling. This, in addition to my husband's specific concerns.
www.Sandradodd.com/screwitup
Ceci
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
> (((0)))More often -- though it doesn't get brought up since it's not aDH and I have had the luxury of taking turns working while the other stayed home. Only with Unschooling do we have a significant difference in opinion as far as how we want to raise our girls. Last year, DH was home most of the year while I worked and I deferred to what worked for him since he was the primary caregiver. He has given lip-service to me about letting me choose how to approach school since now I will be the primary caregiver as long as he is working (no end date for now) but his job will become a 3 day a week position soon, so we will definitely need to be in agreement about school and childcare.
> problem -- one parent is making the educational decisions and the
> other is trusting them.(((0)))
>
I feel that I have a tendency to judge him rather than empathize. He's a better father when he has more time away from the girls. His ability to be patient and calm with them is greatly challenged when he spends a lot of time with them. I see DDs rebelling against him, arguing with him, mostly due to the limits he's trying to apply consistently. But, when I suggest that, he insists that the things he is trying to limit are the problem. I need some tools to empathize and help him find calm and perspective during those times. I tend to either argue with him (though I am getting better at not doing that) or inject myself into the situation and relieve him. But I feel I am not ultimately helping DH find a way to deal with things better. Ideas?
Ceci
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
> -------- Some husbands will go along to avoid strife. Going along shouldn't beJoyce -- this is so helpful! The straw idea puts a face on things for me that I've not considered. Thinking about how to meet DH's concerns in a proactive way is so obvious -- but I have been missing that, unfortunately! With two young children (ages 2 & 5) we are still struggling to find nice stretches of time that we can discuss such things.
> mistaken for agreement. It's a straw they're willing to bear to get
> something else (peace in the marriage). Those straws do (silently)
> accumulate and can result in a foot that comes slamming down that
> *seems* out of nowhere but really isn't.
>
> Insisting isn't good. It tends to raise people's defenses. He might
> back down or give in but be aware that you only get so many "straws"
> he'll accept. (And each person is different on how many!)
>
> You could say this is something really important to you. It's
> something you really really believe in whole heartedly and you're not
> seeing a way around the damage school is causing. And then ask him
> what things you can do that would make him feel more comfortable with
> the change. And then do them. And keep revisiting his discomfort and
> what's working to help, what might work better, so he feels you care
> about his feelings. --------
>
Ceci
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=He's a better father when he has more time away from the girls. His ability to be patient and calm with them is greatly challenged when he spends a lot of time with them. -=-
Danger.
That can certainly be carried too far.
And the belief of MANY school-kids' parents that they can't get along or wouldn't know what to do with their kids if they were with them all the time, because even school vacations/holidays are "too long" comes from the disconnect that school creates between parents and children.
Unschooling can create the kind of relationship that works full time. And if it can't, or doesn't, unschooling isn't going to work.
-=-I tend to either argue with him (though I am getting better at not doing that) or inject myself into the situation and relieve him. But I feel I am not ultimately helping DH find a way to deal with things better. Ideas?-=-
If you inject yourself into the situation, I'm assuming it's to save the children from an impending problem. Sometimes that's good. Too much can be detrimental.
Maybe it's not your job to "ultimately help DH find a way," at least not in such a way that makes it seem that you and the children will teach him how to be. Don't make an antagonistic situation, or if you already have one, try to soften it rather than fortify it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Danger.
That can certainly be carried too far.
And the belief of MANY school-kids' parents that they can't get along or wouldn't know what to do with their kids if they were with them all the time, because even school vacations/holidays are "too long" comes from the disconnect that school creates between parents and children.
Unschooling can create the kind of relationship that works full time. And if it can't, or doesn't, unschooling isn't going to work.
-=-I tend to either argue with him (though I am getting better at not doing that) or inject myself into the situation and relieve him. But I feel I am not ultimately helping DH find a way to deal with things better. Ideas?-=-
If you inject yourself into the situation, I'm assuming it's to save the children from an impending problem. Sometimes that's good. Too much can be detrimental.
Maybe it's not your job to "ultimately help DH find a way," at least not in such a way that makes it seem that you and the children will teach him how to be. Don't make an antagonistic situation, or if you already have one, try to soften it rather than fortify it.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=What if "happy" is different for each parent?-=-
All the time and energy you're using asking questions you haven't really looked at carefully yourself could be better spent with your children, or in doing some non-verbal task (folding laundry, making beds, doing dishes) and letting the responses you've gotten her percolate through your mind in a quieter way.
-=-Do successful, happy Unschooling partnerships exist where one parent is passionate about learning and growth and change for the better while the other is reluctant or much less interested?-=-
Whether people say yes or no won't matter. Unless your own family is stable and together enough to do this, you can't do it.
All the writing in the world won't change behavior. Only changing behavior will do that.
#1 Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
#2 http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
--------------------
-=-I think DH would be happy for our family to settle into DD1's Waldorf-y school community even though we both have reservations about the philosophy. He's a happier, better parent with less childcare responsibilities. He is willing to work to afford a standard of living that's beyond what I need.
I want a joyful, connected family and peace and joy in our home. I have concerns that our 5 year old is already rolling her eyes at DH and me. She is actively defiant with DH everyday. (They have wonderful, connected times, too.) She doesn't like to discuss what she did at school.
This is not terribly troubling for DH but I am greatly concerned. I see Unschooling as the only way to ensure a joyful, connected family. Am I being too narrow-minded?-=-
---------------------
Not too narrow-minded, but too desperate. Let the school prove itself to your husband. Let HIM see that it's harmful. Point out that she's rolling her eyes, if he hasn't noticed. And he might not have noticed. Not everyone has the same interpersonal awareness. Not everyone reads subtle body language (or the non-subtle rolling of eyes). http://sandradodd.com/intelligences Don't assume he sees everything you do and feels as you do (or should) about all of it.
-=-She doesn't like to discuss what she did at school. -=-
Then stop asking her. Seriously. Let that be her business. If she wants to talk to you, she will.
It's possible that you're talking about this too much, and not letting it be enough. It's possible that you're wanting to micromanage the moves and thoughts of others in your family rather than giving them time to wait a while and watch, too.
#1 Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
#2 http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
Sandra
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All the time and energy you're using asking questions you haven't really looked at carefully yourself could be better spent with your children, or in doing some non-verbal task (folding laundry, making beds, doing dishes) and letting the responses you've gotten her percolate through your mind in a quieter way.
-=-Do successful, happy Unschooling partnerships exist where one parent is passionate about learning and growth and change for the better while the other is reluctant or much less interested?-=-
Whether people say yes or no won't matter. Unless your own family is stable and together enough to do this, you can't do it.
All the writing in the world won't change behavior. Only changing behavior will do that.
#1 Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
#2 http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
--------------------
-=-I think DH would be happy for our family to settle into DD1's Waldorf-y school community even though we both have reservations about the philosophy. He's a happier, better parent with less childcare responsibilities. He is willing to work to afford a standard of living that's beyond what I need.
I want a joyful, connected family and peace and joy in our home. I have concerns that our 5 year old is already rolling her eyes at DH and me. She is actively defiant with DH everyday. (They have wonderful, connected times, too.) She doesn't like to discuss what she did at school.
This is not terribly troubling for DH but I am greatly concerned. I see Unschooling as the only way to ensure a joyful, connected family. Am I being too narrow-minded?-=-
---------------------
Not too narrow-minded, but too desperate. Let the school prove itself to your husband. Let HIM see that it's harmful. Point out that she's rolling her eyes, if he hasn't noticed. And he might not have noticed. Not everyone has the same interpersonal awareness. Not everyone reads subtle body language (or the non-subtle rolling of eyes). http://sandradodd.com/intelligences Don't assume he sees everything you do and feels as you do (or should) about all of it.
-=-She doesn't like to discuss what she did at school. -=-
Then stop asking her. Seriously. Let that be her business. If she wants to talk to you, she will.
It's possible that you're talking about this too much, and not letting it be enough. It's possible that you're wanting to micromanage the moves and thoughts of others in your family rather than giving them time to wait a while and watch, too.
#1 Read a little, try a little, wait a while, watch.
#2 http://sandradodd.com/gradualchange
Sandra
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aldq75
-=- I see Unschooling as the only way to ensure a joyful, connected family. Am I being
too narrow-minded? -=-
There's no absolute right way to guarantee a joyful family life. Unschooling is not a panacea.
Andrea Q
too narrow-minded? -=-
There's no absolute right way to guarantee a joyful family life. Unschooling is not a panacea.
Andrea Q
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 24, 2011, at 8:35 AM, catfish_friend wrote:
the other a confirmed carnivore? What if one loves the mountains and
the other loves the ocean?
By respecting differences, you not only create better relationships
(with kids, with partners, with friends) you're giving kids examples
of how people who are different can get along together.
A vegetarian shouldn't be looking for ways for the carnivore to
change. The Catholic shouldn't be trying to convert the Jew. But the
vegetarian doesn't need to eat meat to get a long, nor does the
Catholic need to attend temple.
If what you do doesn't raise a negative wall between you, he'll
observe. If what you do looks like it will help him towards his goals,
he'll try it. If the benefits of your goals and your methods start
looking *to him* better than his own, he'll question and rethink his
own beliefs.
If your goal is to get him to change, it's more likely to make him
hold onto his beliefs. If your goal is to practice your own values and
respect your differences, it will give him space to grow and change in
ways that make sense to him.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What if "happy" is different for each parent?What if their religions are different? What if one is vegetarian and
the other a confirmed carnivore? What if one loves the mountains and
the other loves the ocean?
By respecting differences, you not only create better relationships
(with kids, with partners, with friends) you're giving kids examples
of how people who are different can get along together.
A vegetarian shouldn't be looking for ways for the carnivore to
change. The Catholic shouldn't be trying to convert the Jew. But the
vegetarian doesn't need to eat meat to get a long, nor does the
Catholic need to attend temple.
If what you do doesn't raise a negative wall between you, he'll
observe. If what you do looks like it will help him towards his goals,
he'll try it. If the benefits of your goals and your methods start
looking *to him* better than his own, he'll question and rethink his
own beliefs.
If your goal is to get him to change, it's more likely to make him
hold onto his beliefs. If your goal is to practice your own values and
respect your differences, it will give him space to grow and change in
ways that make sense to him.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
> -=- I see Unschooling as the only way to ensure a joyful, connectedI think radical unschooling is a whole, gigantic set of tools to avoid
> family. Am I being
> too narrow-minded? -=-
many of the pitfalls that get in the way of a joyful connected family
and tools to grow joy and connectedness.
But you don't need the whole kaboodle to do things that increase joy
and connectedness, or avoid things that decrease it.
If you want joy and connection, in each moment when faced with a
decision make choices that move you toward them. Avoid choices that
move you away.
Joyce
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Meredith
"emstrength3" <emstrength@...> wrote:
Sending kids to school isn't the same as a child choosing school - although things get muddy when kids are little and don't really know anything about school yet, or are choosing between being bored and lonely at home and slightly less bored and frustrated at school.
I remember thinking "I suppose school is an option in an emergency" when my kids were younger. It was actually a kind of relief, when Ray came back from living with his bio mom and we pulled him out of school, to realize that it wasn't really feasible to put him back in for *any* reason - the school had been in the process of expelling him. Somehow, knowing school was Not an option felt freeing and let me think more creatively about other options.
That being said, if Morgan wanted to try school, I'd certainly let her try. Then again, she's 10 and knows people in school, knows the bad points from their commentary and running into field trips at museums and such. When she was 5 and saying happy things about school based on what she was seeing on Blues Clues, I made sure she had the things she found attractive - a desk and an easel and some of those nice paint cups with the no-spill lids, a chalkboard and a lunchbox. She didn't really want school, just the trappings of school.
If a parent is home and engaged, its not hard to make home more interesting and appealing than school - saying "better than school" is kind of like "better than a trip to the Department of Motor Vehicles"! If a parent isn't able to be home and engaged, that's a problem - that's The problem, not what to have the kids do in the meantime.
---Meredith
>> Barring some major catastrophe, I will not even consider sending my children to school....*******************
>>I give my kids lots of choices and options- going to school is not one of them.
Sending kids to school isn't the same as a child choosing school - although things get muddy when kids are little and don't really know anything about school yet, or are choosing between being bored and lonely at home and slightly less bored and frustrated at school.
I remember thinking "I suppose school is an option in an emergency" when my kids were younger. It was actually a kind of relief, when Ray came back from living with his bio mom and we pulled him out of school, to realize that it wasn't really feasible to put him back in for *any* reason - the school had been in the process of expelling him. Somehow, knowing school was Not an option felt freeing and let me think more creatively about other options.
That being said, if Morgan wanted to try school, I'd certainly let her try. Then again, she's 10 and knows people in school, knows the bad points from their commentary and running into field trips at museums and such. When she was 5 and saying happy things about school based on what she was seeing on Blues Clues, I made sure she had the things she found attractive - a desk and an easel and some of those nice paint cups with the no-spill lids, a chalkboard and a lunchbox. She didn't really want school, just the trappings of school.
If a parent is home and engaged, its not hard to make home more interesting and appealing than school - saying "better than school" is kind of like "better than a trip to the Department of Motor Vehicles"! If a parent isn't able to be home and engaged, that's a problem - that's The problem, not what to have the kids do in the meantime.
---Meredith
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
-=-Do successful, happy Unschooling partnerships exist where one parent
is passionate about learning and growth and change for the better while
the other is reluctant or much less interested?-=-
For some reason this reminded me of a little story that happened this morning.
I have always been the parent who reads about unschooling and I am pretty passionate about learning and creating a learning environment for my kids.
My husband has read a couple things, listen to the Peaceful Parenting talk Sandra has on her site and met a couple great unschooling families he really likes. But he is not interested in details. He leaves it to me and I think trusts me in what I am doing.
Because he is a Dairy Farmer and we live in the barn it is easy to stay connected with him and the kids can spend time with him if they are willing to be with him outside while he works. He works a lot.
Gigi , my five year old absolutely loves the cows and does spend many hours with dad outside. Sometimes over 12 hours. Sometimes 3 or 4 or less but she has lately been outside all the time. Sometimes she chooses to work with him instead of a playdate or going somewhere.
MD is our 9 year old and he is a gamer .. He loves to be on the computer researching about his games. He is a lot like me in that way.
Dad would like for him to come out to be with him more. I have pointed out that when he does spend time with MD doing something they both like , which is sports and trapping gophers/shooting pigeons, that MD will come out more to do what Brian is doing. So Brian has been doing that and MD has been helping dad doing chores just because. He drives the Gator ( an utility vehicle we use in the farm) to get cows in, he feeds corn and hay to the heifers or the calves. They have been having a great time together.
But back to the story.
This morning when we woke up Gigi and I went outside to help dad set up pens inside the calf barn and move some calves. About 5 minutes later MD comes over and we are all working together and the kids are playing sometimes and helping others.
I asked Gigi to go get me some rods just a few feet away while I was helping dad with a panel. She said:
" You go get it"
So I was a little taken back and having a knee jerk reaction that she should just go and do it.
I said to Brian:
"She always does stuff for you but when I ask her for something she always says that- You go get it-."
I was a tiny bit aggravated!
So Brian said to me that he asks her for help and that sometimes she helps and sometimes she is busy doing something and does not help.
What a light-bulb moment! He is so right!
So here I am reading about that and writing to people to do exactly that, my husband has never read any discussions about chores and help and he is doing much better than me!
I know he has seem me ask and accept a no many times and I know that probably influenced him.
I usually handle a no gracefully.
I am lucky he is such a great dad that can step in and be more reasonable than me the times and I am having those moments.
I know that having extended the principles of unschooling to my marriage and my relationship with Brian has absolutely been the difference in our lives and our family. I love our family and our life.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
is passionate about learning and growth and change for the better while
the other is reluctant or much less interested?-=-
For some reason this reminded me of a little story that happened this morning.
I have always been the parent who reads about unschooling and I am pretty passionate about learning and creating a learning environment for my kids.
My husband has read a couple things, listen to the Peaceful Parenting talk Sandra has on her site and met a couple great unschooling families he really likes. But he is not interested in details. He leaves it to me and I think trusts me in what I am doing.
Because he is a Dairy Farmer and we live in the barn it is easy to stay connected with him and the kids can spend time with him if they are willing to be with him outside while he works. He works a lot.
Gigi , my five year old absolutely loves the cows and does spend many hours with dad outside. Sometimes over 12 hours. Sometimes 3 or 4 or less but she has lately been outside all the time. Sometimes she chooses to work with him instead of a playdate or going somewhere.
MD is our 9 year old and he is a gamer .. He loves to be on the computer researching about his games. He is a lot like me in that way.
Dad would like for him to come out to be with him more. I have pointed out that when he does spend time with MD doing something they both like , which is sports and trapping gophers/shooting pigeons, that MD will come out more to do what Brian is doing. So Brian has been doing that and MD has been helping dad doing chores just because. He drives the Gator ( an utility vehicle we use in the farm) to get cows in, he feeds corn and hay to the heifers or the calves. They have been having a great time together.
But back to the story.
This morning when we woke up Gigi and I went outside to help dad set up pens inside the calf barn and move some calves. About 5 minutes later MD comes over and we are all working together and the kids are playing sometimes and helping others.
I asked Gigi to go get me some rods just a few feet away while I was helping dad with a panel. She said:
" You go get it"
So I was a little taken back and having a knee jerk reaction that she should just go and do it.
I said to Brian:
"She always does stuff for you but when I ask her for something she always says that- You go get it-."
I was a tiny bit aggravated!
So Brian said to me that he asks her for help and that sometimes she helps and sometimes she is busy doing something and does not help.
What a light-bulb moment! He is so right!
So here I am reading about that and writing to people to do exactly that, my husband has never read any discussions about chores and help and he is doing much better than me!
I know he has seem me ask and accept a no many times and I know that probably influenced him.
I usually handle a no gracefully.
I am lucky he is such a great dad that can step in and be more reasonable than me the times and I am having those moments.
I know that having extended the principles of unschooling to my marriage and my relationship with Brian has absolutely been the difference in our lives and our family. I love our family and our life.
Alex Polikowsky
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
catfish_friend
> ###And the belief of MANY school-kids' parents that they can't get along or wouldn't know what to do with their kids if they were with them all the time, because even school vacations/holidays are "too long" comes from the disconnect that school creates between parents and children.###When DH was the primary caregiver, he did notice that spring break was pretty sweet and peaceful spending time with our girls as they saw fit, without having to rush rush to meet a school schedule.
###Unschooling can create the kind of relationship that works full time. And if it can't, or doesn't, unschooling isn't going to work.###
Sandra -- thank you for this -- this is helpful to me as a way to connect what DH has already experienced on vacation with the girls to how Unschooling can be for our whole family. DH's resistance comes largely from him looking at others who he thinks are Unschooling (and doing it poorly) and thinking that's what I'm trying to push us toward!
Ceci
catfish_friend
//:://All the time and energy you're using asking questions you haven't really looked at carefully yourself could be better spent with your children, or in doing some non-verbal task (folding laundry, making beds, doing dishes) and letting the responses you've gotten her percolate through your mind in a quieter way.//:://
Agreed. Was thinking that last night/this morning myself.
My smartphone gives me Internet access when I usually wake in the middle of the night co-sleeping (which is usually when I'm online). My big challenge is that the things I need to do require I leave the bed. When my girls stir and sense I'm not there, one of them will come find me in a stressed state, even hysterical at times. I think this is blowback from my working long days, long weeks for 8 months. I feel DDs are worried when I'm not in bed that I'm getting up to go to work and be unavailable to them like I was before. Words don't seem to assure them. My presence does. And I am focused on being present with them save for preparing food when they are home with me. Even so, DD1 feels she is still not getting enough time with me. DD1 also feels I don't cuddle enough with her since DD2 still nurses on demand at night. Poor DH gets time with me even less.
Ceci
Agreed. Was thinking that last night/this morning myself.
My smartphone gives me Internet access when I usually wake in the middle of the night co-sleeping (which is usually when I'm online). My big challenge is that the things I need to do require I leave the bed. When my girls stir and sense I'm not there, one of them will come find me in a stressed state, even hysterical at times. I think this is blowback from my working long days, long weeks for 8 months. I feel DDs are worried when I'm not in bed that I'm getting up to go to work and be unavailable to them like I was before. Words don't seem to assure them. My presence does. And I am focused on being present with them save for preparing food when they are home with me. Even so, DD1 feels she is still not getting enough time with me. DD1 also feels I don't cuddle enough with her since DD2 still nurses on demand at night. Poor DH gets time with me even less.
Ceci