Where are my blind spots?!
beamoogaloo
Hi Guys,
A couple of months back I booked on to take my boys (5 and 7) to a Fort, about an hour and a half away, with some other home ed families. It was set up that you had to pay in advance.
I thought the boys would love it - a castle / fort ruins, by the sea, with a real wartime plane in the grounds that you can go inside and look around.
I had told the boys about the trip a few days ago, then yesterday and then this morning. When I talked about it this morning my eldest immediately said he didn't want to go - that he wanted an 'at home' day playing with the new Lego Skull Truck they just bought and made. I asked my youngest what he would like to do today and he said he also wanted to stay home. I explained to the boys that the trip had been organised for a while and we were going with other home ed families and that I had already paid for it. I asked them why they didn't want to go and it wasn't to do with the place we were planning to go, it was their desire to be home and play with the new Lego skull truck.
So I said I would think about what they said and I went and rang a friend.
I talked through the various thoughts in my head - that I'd already paid for the event and couldn't get my money back, but I didn't fancy driving with unhappy kids who may or may not have a good day, that I didn't have the number for the organiser, but i could obviously find this out somehow!, that i was really looking forward to going to the Fort because it was built during King Henry viii's reign and that's a bit of our history I've been learning about this summer, remembering the excitement i used to have about new toys and knowing that this new Lego truck is something the boys have saved for together and i couldn't see a practical way to take the truck with us but i totally understood their desire to play with it.
Anyway, by the end of the conversation i realised that ultimately my two reasons for still wanting to go were the money i'd already paid and the fact that i didn't have the organiser's number. ultimately, the money is just money. we don't have a lot of it but i've paid it either way and i'd rather pay for a happy day at home than a potentially grumpy day away. As for the organiser's number - I'm 33 yrs old, bright and resourceful - how hard can it be to find a number?!
so i decided to respect the boys' preference to stay at home. and i felt relief and i felt good about it.
but so far this morning I've been feeling flat. I'm trying to shift my thoughts around but being at home and not having any plans is giving me space to realise how tired i feel! i just want to snuggle on the sofa with a movie! I have asked the boys if they fancy a movie but they are more than happy playing with their lego truck! maybe i could put a movie on anyway!
so, where are my blindspots, what might i have done differently, what am i missing, how do i shift into the new plan for the day?
Thanks
Bea
A couple of months back I booked on to take my boys (5 and 7) to a Fort, about an hour and a half away, with some other home ed families. It was set up that you had to pay in advance.
I thought the boys would love it - a castle / fort ruins, by the sea, with a real wartime plane in the grounds that you can go inside and look around.
I had told the boys about the trip a few days ago, then yesterday and then this morning. When I talked about it this morning my eldest immediately said he didn't want to go - that he wanted an 'at home' day playing with the new Lego Skull Truck they just bought and made. I asked my youngest what he would like to do today and he said he also wanted to stay home. I explained to the boys that the trip had been organised for a while and we were going with other home ed families and that I had already paid for it. I asked them why they didn't want to go and it wasn't to do with the place we were planning to go, it was their desire to be home and play with the new Lego skull truck.
So I said I would think about what they said and I went and rang a friend.
I talked through the various thoughts in my head - that I'd already paid for the event and couldn't get my money back, but I didn't fancy driving with unhappy kids who may or may not have a good day, that I didn't have the number for the organiser, but i could obviously find this out somehow!, that i was really looking forward to going to the Fort because it was built during King Henry viii's reign and that's a bit of our history I've been learning about this summer, remembering the excitement i used to have about new toys and knowing that this new Lego truck is something the boys have saved for together and i couldn't see a practical way to take the truck with us but i totally understood their desire to play with it.
Anyway, by the end of the conversation i realised that ultimately my two reasons for still wanting to go were the money i'd already paid and the fact that i didn't have the organiser's number. ultimately, the money is just money. we don't have a lot of it but i've paid it either way and i'd rather pay for a happy day at home than a potentially grumpy day away. As for the organiser's number - I'm 33 yrs old, bright and resourceful - how hard can it be to find a number?!
so i decided to respect the boys' preference to stay at home. and i felt relief and i felt good about it.
but so far this morning I've been feeling flat. I'm trying to shift my thoughts around but being at home and not having any plans is giving me space to realise how tired i feel! i just want to snuggle on the sofa with a movie! I have asked the boys if they fancy a movie but they are more than happy playing with their lego truck! maybe i could put a movie on anyway!
so, where are my blindspots, what might i have done differently, what am i missing, how do i shift into the new plan for the day?
Thanks
Bea
Sandra Dodd
-=-Anyway, by the end of the conversation i realised that ultimately my two reasons for still wanting to go were the money i'd already paid and the fact that i didn't have the organiser's number. ultimately, the money is just money. we don't have a lot of it but i've paid it either way and i'd rather pay for a happy day at home than a potentially grumpy day away. As for the organiser's number - I'm 33 yrs old, bright and resourceful - how hard can it be to find a number?!-=-
I would have gone.
But I also would have (before that morning) persuaded my kids that I really wanted to go and that it would be fun, I would have prepared a bit by showing them a picture, and telling them who else would be there, and talking about what we would have for lunch, and reminding them the night before, and having the clothes ready that we'd figured out to wear.
I've seen some families lately with a fatal flaw (not saying you did this, but setting it up against the way I used to do it, and still do (as I went on a road trip this weekend with two of my kids and their girlfriend/boyfriends). I've seen some families get up the morning of a trip and say, "So! It's time to go. Do you want to go?"
WHAT!?
When Holly and I left for the conference in San Diego, I didn't ask her if she wanted to go. We had flights paid for by someone else. We were meeting Kirby. It wasn't an option at that point. It was an option many months ago when we discussed whether to go or not. After that it became a commitment.
The trip to Chama had a couple of glitches. We had planned two nights up there, and Ashlee (Marty's girlfriend) wanted to fish. Marty was invited to a stag party, and because he had missed the last two he was invited to, from being out of town, he wanted to go to this one, so we cut it down to an overnight. Then Ashlee forgot and scheduled something for Friday, but a reminder caused her to cancel that and to go. We had fun.
I'm talking about adults, but I'm talking about adults I've known for years, and about my own kids, now 19 and 22, but once 9 and 12; once 2 and 5.
Bea, I think YOU wanted to go to that fort, and that's not unreasonable. It's okay to tell your kids that part of home ed is to get out and do and see things, and that the Lego will be there when they get home, that if they're careful and you help them take care of it, the Lego will be there in five years, ten years, fifteen years. Marty has all his Lego, and most of Kirby's old Lego.
They might not be old enough to understand the value of money, but they're to the "object permanence" stage and will know the Lego will not disappear.
More happy preparation. Reminder before bedtime. Sell it as a joyful, sharing experience.
I would, if I were you, tell them that you didn't have a very good day because you were uncomfortable about missing that trip and you wish they had gone. Not in a big guilt trip way, in a statement of fact way. And the next time you want to go somewhere, say that you REALLY want this to work out because the last one didn't, and you want their help.
Honest to God, I'm getting tired of hearing unschoolers say wanly that they had a fantastic plan but their kids said no, and that they had no option but to allow their children to cancel things on a whim. If parents are going to stop saying no arbitrarily, and try to make life interesting, it's not okay for a child to exert control arbitrarily and cancel out plans. Yes, sure, there can be moms who plan too much, but the things I've been seeing and hearing in the last few months are not that at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I would have gone.
But I also would have (before that morning) persuaded my kids that I really wanted to go and that it would be fun, I would have prepared a bit by showing them a picture, and telling them who else would be there, and talking about what we would have for lunch, and reminding them the night before, and having the clothes ready that we'd figured out to wear.
I've seen some families lately with a fatal flaw (not saying you did this, but setting it up against the way I used to do it, and still do (as I went on a road trip this weekend with two of my kids and their girlfriend/boyfriends). I've seen some families get up the morning of a trip and say, "So! It's time to go. Do you want to go?"
WHAT!?
When Holly and I left for the conference in San Diego, I didn't ask her if she wanted to go. We had flights paid for by someone else. We were meeting Kirby. It wasn't an option at that point. It was an option many months ago when we discussed whether to go or not. After that it became a commitment.
The trip to Chama had a couple of glitches. We had planned two nights up there, and Ashlee (Marty's girlfriend) wanted to fish. Marty was invited to a stag party, and because he had missed the last two he was invited to, from being out of town, he wanted to go to this one, so we cut it down to an overnight. Then Ashlee forgot and scheduled something for Friday, but a reminder caused her to cancel that and to go. We had fun.
I'm talking about adults, but I'm talking about adults I've known for years, and about my own kids, now 19 and 22, but once 9 and 12; once 2 and 5.
Bea, I think YOU wanted to go to that fort, and that's not unreasonable. It's okay to tell your kids that part of home ed is to get out and do and see things, and that the Lego will be there when they get home, that if they're careful and you help them take care of it, the Lego will be there in five years, ten years, fifteen years. Marty has all his Lego, and most of Kirby's old Lego.
They might not be old enough to understand the value of money, but they're to the "object permanence" stage and will know the Lego will not disappear.
More happy preparation. Reminder before bedtime. Sell it as a joyful, sharing experience.
I would, if I were you, tell them that you didn't have a very good day because you were uncomfortable about missing that trip and you wish they had gone. Not in a big guilt trip way, in a statement of fact way. And the next time you want to go somewhere, say that you REALLY want this to work out because the last one didn't, and you want their help.
Honest to God, I'm getting tired of hearing unschoolers say wanly that they had a fantastic plan but their kids said no, and that they had no option but to allow their children to cancel things on a whim. If parents are going to stop saying no arbitrarily, and try to make life interesting, it's not okay for a child to exert control arbitrarily and cancel out plans. Yes, sure, there can be moms who plan too much, but the things I've been seeing and hearing in the last few months are not that at all.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
malibu_n_milk2000
> I would have gone.Can you expand on this please, what factors would you consider when making the decision to go? like how important it was to you? the money? Would you see it as an executive decision and if so based on what? Or something else?
>If parents are going to stop saying no arbitrarily, and try to make life interesting, it's not okay for a child to exert control arbitrarily and cancel out plans.
I'm trying to understand this fully. I think I understand that your saying by a kid canceling out plans whenever they want its basically leading to the kid ruling the house instead of how the adults would in a more mainstream household?
If so where do you draw the line or I mean how do you create it so that the children also respect the parents needs / desires?
As little children its essential that we're meeting their needs, and then we are modelling that for them, but when and how does the transition happen that they also start doing that in return?
Thanks
Emma
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Anyway, by the end of the conversation i realised that ultimately my two reasons for still wanting to go were the money i'd already paid and the fact that i didn't have the organiser's number. ultimately, the money is just money. we don't have a lot of it but i've paid it either way and i'd rather pay for a happy day at home than a potentially grumpy day away. As for the organiser's number - I'm 33 yrs old, bright and resourceful - how hard can it be to find a number?!-=-
>
> I would have gone.
> But I also would have (before that morning) persuaded my kids that I really wanted to go and that it would be fun, I would have prepared a bit by showing them a picture, and telling them who else would be there, and talking about what we would have for lunch, and reminding them the night before, and having the clothes ready that we'd figured out to wear.
>
> I've seen some families lately with a fatal flaw (not saying you did this, but setting it up against the way I used to do it, and still do (as I went on a road trip this weekend with two of my kids and their girlfriend/boyfriends). I've seen some families get up the morning of a trip and say, "So! It's time to go. Do you want to go?"
>
> WHAT!?
> When Holly and I left for the conference in San Diego, I didn't ask her if she wanted to go. We had flights paid for by someone else. We were meeting Kirby. It wasn't an option at that point. It was an option many months ago when we discussed whether to go or not. After that it became a commitment.
>
> The trip to Chama had a couple of glitches. We had planned two nights up there, and Ashlee (Marty's girlfriend) wanted to fish. Marty was invited to a stag party, and because he had missed the last two he was invited to, from being out of town, he wanted to go to this one, so we cut it down to an overnight. Then Ashlee forgot and scheduled something for Friday, but a reminder caused her to cancel that and to go. We had fun.
>
> I'm talking about adults, but I'm talking about adults I've known for years, and about my own kids, now 19 and 22, but once 9 and 12; once 2 and 5.
>
> Bea, I think YOU wanted to go to that fort, and that's not unreasonable. It's okay to tell your kids that part of home ed is to get out and do and see things, and that the Lego will be there when they get home, that if they're careful and you help them take care of it, the Lego will be there in five years, ten years, fifteen years. Marty has all his Lego, and most of Kirby's old Lego.
>
> They might not be old enough to understand the value of money, but they're to the "object permanence" stage and will know the Lego will not disappear.
>
> More happy preparation. Reminder before bedtime. Sell it as a joyful, sharing experience.
>
> I would, if I were you, tell them that you didn't have a very good day because you were uncomfortable about missing that trip and you wish they had gone. Not in a big guilt trip way, in a statement of fact way. And the next time you want to go somewhere, say that you REALLY want this to work out because the last one didn't, and you want their help.
>
> Honest to God, I'm getting tired of hearing unschoolers say wanly that they had a fantastic plan but their kids said no, and that they had no option but to allow their children to cancel things on a whim. If parents are going to stop saying no arbitrarily, and try to make life interesting, it's not okay for a child to exert control arbitrarily and cancel out plans. Yes, sure, there can be moms who plan too much, but the things I've been seeing and hearing in the last few months are not that at all.
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Meredith
"beamoogaloo" <bea@...> wrote:
When Mo was 5ish I wouldn't have set her up to have to choose between a really fun new toy and an outting. I probably made that mistake once, though ;)
Even now that she's ten I don't ask "do you want to go?" for things we've already planned, things I'm pretty confident she wants to do. I help her get ready to go, help create the momentum to get out the door on time. But! if she were to get upset and say "I've changed my mind I don't want to do this" that's another matter. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen, and then I re-think things.
Why Wouldn't you? That's something to think about. You seem to be asking your kids' permission to do things.
---Meredith
>he wanted an 'at home' day playing with the new Lego Skull Truck they just bought and made.****************
When Mo was 5ish I wouldn't have set her up to have to choose between a really fun new toy and an outting. I probably made that mistake once, though ;)
Even now that she's ten I don't ask "do you want to go?" for things we've already planned, things I'm pretty confident she wants to do. I help her get ready to go, help create the momentum to get out the door on time. But! if she were to get upset and say "I've changed my mind I don't want to do this" that's another matter. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen, and then I re-think things.
>I have asked the boys if they fancy a movie but they are more than happy playing with their lego truck! maybe i could put a movie on anyway!*****************
Why Wouldn't you? That's something to think about. You seem to be asking your kids' permission to do things.
---Meredith
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 19, 2011, at 3:45 PM, malibu_n_milk2000 wrote:
they'll return the respect when they're developmentally able.
And also respecting your needs in ways that they don't feel you're
setting them aside uncaringly for yourself. Basically you'll be
showing them how to take care of themselves while respecting others.
As you would with a friend if you had to put them out to do something
for yourself, you'd be respectful of their time and thank them for it.
Joyce
> If so where do you draw the line or I mean how do you create it soYou get their respect by being someone *they* feel respects them. And
> that the children also respect the parents needs / desires?
they'll return the respect when they're developmentally able.
And also respecting your needs in ways that they don't feel you're
setting them aside uncaringly for yourself. Basically you'll be
showing them how to take care of themselves while respecting others.
As you would with a friend if you had to put them out to do something
for yourself, you'd be respectful of their time and thank them for it.
Joyce
Pam Sorooshian
On 9/19/2011 12:45 PM, malibu_n_milk2000 wrote:
them," either. There is a balance. Parents have the advantage of being
able to see ahead and anticipate consequences in most cases better than
a child. They shouldn't ignore that extra knowledge and let the family's
life be ruled by children who are more short-sighted. On the other hand,
the parents should really seriously consider the child's interest and
feelings - not cavalierly ignore them just because they are those of a
child.
I can't say if I would have made my kids go to this particular event as
described by the original poster. I had kids who would typically go
places pretty willingly and I took it pretty seriously if they ever said
they didn't want to go. IF our change in plans would not inconvenience
others, I'd most likely let my kids decide to skip something. IF I had
paid a lot for something and thought they'd really enjoy it once they
got there, I might very likely tell them that I didn't want to feel I'd
wasted the money and that I wanted them to go give it a try. Leaving at
an opportune moment was always an option that was open to them and they
knew it, so that made them more willing to go along, usually.
Probably the minute my kids GOT that new toy that they didn't want to
stop playing with, I'd have started figuring out how to either bring it
with us or tell them to remember that we were going to leave it for a
while but it would still be there when we got back. "Permanence of
objects" is not necessarily something really felt by children - so
putting it all in a box and bringing it in the car might often be
helpful in these kinds of circumstances.
-pam
> I'm trying to understand this fully. I think I understand that yourKids shouldn't "rule the house" and parents shouldn't "lord it over
> saying by a kid canceling out plans whenever they want its basically
> leading to the kid ruling the house instead of how the adults would in
> a more mainstream household?
them," either. There is a balance. Parents have the advantage of being
able to see ahead and anticipate consequences in most cases better than
a child. They shouldn't ignore that extra knowledge and let the family's
life be ruled by children who are more short-sighted. On the other hand,
the parents should really seriously consider the child's interest and
feelings - not cavalierly ignore them just because they are those of a
child.
I can't say if I would have made my kids go to this particular event as
described by the original poster. I had kids who would typically go
places pretty willingly and I took it pretty seriously if they ever said
they didn't want to go. IF our change in plans would not inconvenience
others, I'd most likely let my kids decide to skip something. IF I had
paid a lot for something and thought they'd really enjoy it once they
got there, I might very likely tell them that I didn't want to feel I'd
wasted the money and that I wanted them to go give it a try. Leaving at
an opportune moment was always an option that was open to them and they
knew it, so that made them more willing to go along, usually.
Probably the minute my kids GOT that new toy that they didn't want to
stop playing with, I'd have started figuring out how to either bring it
with us or tell them to remember that we were going to leave it for a
while but it would still be there when we got back. "Permanence of
objects" is not necessarily something really felt by children - so
putting it all in a box and bringing it in the car might often be
helpful in these kinds of circumstances.
-pam
Sandra Dodd
-=-If so where do you draw the line or I mean how do you create it so that the children also respect the parents needs / desires? -=-
They didn't do things because they respected my needs. they did it because I persuaded them that it would be fun, and then I made sure it was fun.
-=-As little children its essential that we're meeting their needs, and then we are modelling that for them, but when and how does the transition happen that they also start doing that in return?
-=-
What kind of answer are you expecting to that? An age? A length of time?
Would you ask "When does a child learn to read?" or "When does a baby learn to walk"?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
They didn't do things because they respected my needs. they did it because I persuaded them that it would be fun, and then I made sure it was fun.
-=-As little children its essential that we're meeting their needs, and then we are modelling that for them, but when and how does the transition happen that they also start doing that in return?
-=-
What kind of answer are you expecting to that? An age? A length of time?
Would you ask "When does a child learn to read?" or "When does a baby learn to walk"?
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rachael
I hope my own experience is ok to post in reference to the boys who didn't want to go to the Fort. (I too have Lego lovers who sometimes would probably rather Lego it up!)
If it is something that has to be pre-purchased I ask my kids if it would be something they would like to attend before I make a commitment to buy tickets. Once the commitment is made, we attend. I look for things they are interested in so that I know they will enjoy the trip. I also try to incorporate new things to spark their interest. If it is something they end up not enjoying so much, and perhaps have not picked themselves (such as the over packed Natural History Museum the last time we went), we keep the trip short, and explain that we wish to see the new exhibit before we go. They understand this, and usually after a few minutes have found something they love (dioramas are the big hit these days!)
My children are almost the same age as yours (6 ½ and 5 in October), but I wouldn't give them complete control over what we do as a family, even if they were older. They have control over their bedtimes, clothes, food etc., but there are certain things that I feel are important, such as keeping a commitment to something they agreed they wanted to go to, and that I also knew they would like. (On a side note, if this was a more permanent thing, such as weekly lessons and they were unhappy, I would give them a choice as that is different to me.)
What has helped us is to have the boys pick out their clothes the night before (they are not morning people), and to make sure we pack a lunch/snack for them, as well as have the car stocked up with things they would like to do during the drive, even a short one.
-=-As little children its essential that we're meeting their needs, and then we are modeling that for them, but when and how does the transition happen that they also start doing that in return? -=-
Once when I was 16 and in the middle of a huge argument with my mother I told her I was never going to have children because " when you have kids you should give them everything you have and expect nothing " When my eldest was born (17 years later) I remembered this fight so clearly. I don't expect my boys to do anything for me at the moment. However, they will help me do something when I least expect it, and haven't asked. I have also watched both my boys play with toddlers/babies (under 2), and seen how gentle and caring they are. (Not how they wrestle each other at home ) To me this shows that they understand about helping others and meeting others needs. Perhaps you are just missing it because you expect it to show up the same way you meet their needs?
Rachael
If it is something that has to be pre-purchased I ask my kids if it would be something they would like to attend before I make a commitment to buy tickets. Once the commitment is made, we attend. I look for things they are interested in so that I know they will enjoy the trip. I also try to incorporate new things to spark their interest. If it is something they end up not enjoying so much, and perhaps have not picked themselves (such as the over packed Natural History Museum the last time we went), we keep the trip short, and explain that we wish to see the new exhibit before we go. They understand this, and usually after a few minutes have found something they love (dioramas are the big hit these days!)
My children are almost the same age as yours (6 ½ and 5 in October), but I wouldn't give them complete control over what we do as a family, even if they were older. They have control over their bedtimes, clothes, food etc., but there are certain things that I feel are important, such as keeping a commitment to something they agreed they wanted to go to, and that I also knew they would like. (On a side note, if this was a more permanent thing, such as weekly lessons and they were unhappy, I would give them a choice as that is different to me.)
What has helped us is to have the boys pick out their clothes the night before (they are not morning people), and to make sure we pack a lunch/snack for them, as well as have the car stocked up with things they would like to do during the drive, even a short one.
-=-As little children its essential that we're meeting their needs, and then we are modeling that for them, but when and how does the transition happen that they also start doing that in return? -=-
Once when I was 16 and in the middle of a huge argument with my mother I told her I was never going to have children because " when you have kids you should give them everything you have and expect nothing " When my eldest was born (17 years later) I remembered this fight so clearly. I don't expect my boys to do anything for me at the moment. However, they will help me do something when I least expect it, and haven't asked. I have also watched both my boys play with toddlers/babies (under 2), and seen how gentle and caring they are. (Not how they wrestle each other at home ) To me this shows that they understand about helping others and meeting others needs. Perhaps you are just missing it because you expect it to show up the same way you meet their needs?
Rachael
teresa
Something similar happened to me last week.
I was invited to a play date with a few other families in our new city. I hyped it up, talked about the host's kid the same age as my older son, made an extra-special breakfast that morning, had the boys sleep in the clothes they'd wear, made their favorite cookies as my contribution to the potluck and set aside some for them.
But, when the time came, my almost-6-year-old son said he didn't want to go. He wanted to stay home and play on the computer. (The computer just happened to be what he was doing, but I think he really wanted to stay home.) And I pushed it a bit, kindly, but letting him know I had already committed to this, that I wanted to get out and talk with other moms, etc.
It was more than he could handle well. He ended up locking the keys in the car so we couldn't go. It was totally uncharacteristic for him, and a very Big and Scary deal for our family. He usually likes to go out and do fun things when I've prepped him well. But, we just moved, and he's been more insular (by choice) in our new place, and it was just too much.
When we got the locked-out situation resolved, we stayed home. I talked with him briefly at the time and then later that night about my concerns and disappointments (at missing the get-together). I don't think he would have resorted to that kind of behavior if I had really understood and respected how much he wanted to stay home, so I considered it a mama-learning moment, too. I also felt a mixture of relief and flatness, and wondered what the coming weeks would hold.
So, I made sure that we had an outing in the next couple of days. (The above happened last Wednesday, and we went to a party on Sunday.) That outing, with the same prep but the added benefit of it being a whole-family, daddy-included event, was a great success, and that was important to me.
I wonder if it's a matter of weighing the circumstances each time there's a refusal: the kids' ages, their general proclivities, the way they usually respond to change, what win-win is possible, the intensity of their refusal and what else might be behind it, what you've committed to, your own motives for going and what you think they'd get out of it, what you're willing to do to get them there.
I don't think going through that whole thing every time would probably be necessary; sometimes it might be as simple as scooping them up happily, having a favorite toy waiting in their seats in the car, and singing yourselves merrily down the road to whatever adventure awaits. But after my own incident last week, I felt the need to back things waaaaay up, to make sure I had a good pulse on the situation and I was making decisions that had the best chance of adding peace and enjoyment and learning to our lives.
Teresa
Mama to Woody, almost 6, and Fox, 2 1/2
I was invited to a play date with a few other families in our new city. I hyped it up, talked about the host's kid the same age as my older son, made an extra-special breakfast that morning, had the boys sleep in the clothes they'd wear, made their favorite cookies as my contribution to the potluck and set aside some for them.
But, when the time came, my almost-6-year-old son said he didn't want to go. He wanted to stay home and play on the computer. (The computer just happened to be what he was doing, but I think he really wanted to stay home.) And I pushed it a bit, kindly, but letting him know I had already committed to this, that I wanted to get out and talk with other moms, etc.
It was more than he could handle well. He ended up locking the keys in the car so we couldn't go. It was totally uncharacteristic for him, and a very Big and Scary deal for our family. He usually likes to go out and do fun things when I've prepped him well. But, we just moved, and he's been more insular (by choice) in our new place, and it was just too much.
When we got the locked-out situation resolved, we stayed home. I talked with him briefly at the time and then later that night about my concerns and disappointments (at missing the get-together). I don't think he would have resorted to that kind of behavior if I had really understood and respected how much he wanted to stay home, so I considered it a mama-learning moment, too. I also felt a mixture of relief and flatness, and wondered what the coming weeks would hold.
So, I made sure that we had an outing in the next couple of days. (The above happened last Wednesday, and we went to a party on Sunday.) That outing, with the same prep but the added benefit of it being a whole-family, daddy-included event, was a great success, and that was important to me.
I wonder if it's a matter of weighing the circumstances each time there's a refusal: the kids' ages, their general proclivities, the way they usually respond to change, what win-win is possible, the intensity of their refusal and what else might be behind it, what you've committed to, your own motives for going and what you think they'd get out of it, what you're willing to do to get them there.
I don't think going through that whole thing every time would probably be necessary; sometimes it might be as simple as scooping them up happily, having a favorite toy waiting in their seats in the car, and singing yourselves merrily down the road to whatever adventure awaits. But after my own incident last week, I felt the need to back things waaaaay up, to make sure I had a good pulse on the situation and I was making decisions that had the best chance of adding peace and enjoyment and learning to our lives.
Teresa
Mama to Woody, almost 6, and Fox, 2 1/2
--- In [email protected], "beamoogaloo" <bea@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Guys,
>
> A couple of months back I booked on to take my boys (5 and 7) to a Fort, about an hour and a half away, with some other home ed families. It was set up that you had to pay in advance.
>
> I thought the boys would love it - a castle / fort ruins, by the sea, with a real wartime plane in the grounds that you can go inside and look around.
>
> I had told the boys about the trip a few days ago, then yesterday and then this morning. When I talked about it this morning my eldest immediately said he didn't want to go - that he wanted an 'at home' day playing with the new Lego Skull Truck they just bought and made. I asked my youngest what he would like to do today and he said he also wanted to stay home. I explained to the boys that the trip had been organised for a while and we were going with other home ed families and that I had already paid for it. I asked them why they didn't want to go and it wasn't to do with the place we were planning to go, it was their desire to be home and play with the new Lego skull truck.
>
> So I said I would think about what they said and I went and rang a friend.
>
> I talked through the various thoughts in my head - that I'd already paid for the event and couldn't get my money back, but I didn't fancy driving with unhappy kids who may or may not have a good day, that I didn't have the number for the organiser, but i could obviously find this out somehow!, that i was really looking forward to going to the Fort because it was built during King Henry viii's reign and that's a bit of our history I've been learning about this summer, remembering the excitement i used to have about new toys and knowing that this new Lego truck is something the boys have saved for together and i couldn't see a practical way to take the truck with us but i totally understood their desire to play with it.
>
> Anyway, by the end of the conversation i realised that ultimately my two reasons for still wanting to go were the money i'd already paid and the fact that i didn't have the organiser's number. ultimately, the money is just money. we don't have a lot of it but i've paid it either way and i'd rather pay for a happy day at home than a potentially grumpy day away. As for the organiser's number - I'm 33 yrs old, bright and resourceful - how hard can it be to find a number?!
>
> so i decided to respect the boys' preference to stay at home. and i felt relief and i felt good about it.
>
> but so far this morning I've been feeling flat. I'm trying to shift my thoughts around but being at home and not having any plans is giving me space to realise how tired i feel! i just want to snuggle on the sofa with a movie! I have asked the boys if they fancy a movie but they are more than happy playing with their lego truck! maybe i could put a movie on anyway!
>
> so, where are my blindspots, what might i have done differently, what am i missing, how do i shift into the new plan for the day?
>
> Thanks
>
> Bea
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-My children are almost the same age as yours (6 ½ and 5 in October), but I wouldn't give them complete control over what we do as a family, even if they were older. They have control over their bedtimes, clothes, food etc., but there are certain things that I feel are important, such as keeping a commitment to something they agreed they wanted to go to, and that I also knew they would like. -=-
I think the word "control" and all the images and ideas that go with it is too jagged a thing to have in an unschooling nest. Options and choices are softer. They're more realistic, and nearer the truth.
I can't control my clothes. I can't control food. I can't always control when I go to sleep, and I can't control when I wake up.
http://sandradodd.com/control
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I think the word "control" and all the images and ideas that go with it is too jagged a thing to have in an unschooling nest. Options and choices are softer. They're more realistic, and nearer the truth.
I can't control my clothes. I can't control food. I can't always control when I go to sleep, and I can't control when I wake up.
http://sandradodd.com/control
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-It was more than he could handle well. He ended up locking the keys in the car so we couldn't go. It was totally uncharacteristic for him, and a very Big and Scary deal for our family. -=-
If he was old enough and aware enough to have done that with premeditation (if I lock the keys in, we can't go), it wasn't a good thing for him to do. I would ask him how he would feel if you hadn't wanted him to use the computer and so had turned off the electricity to the whole house.
In our family, having a running vehicle has always been considered a safety feature. We can get in and get away from the house in any weather, if necessary (house on fire or whatever, we have another shelter, that moves). It's the way to get someone to an emergency room more quickly than an ambulance if they're broken or bleeding. (Throes of death, ambulance would be better, but for kid emergencies, cars are perfect.)
Last weekend we left town; I took an extra key.
Anytime anyone leave town, Keith or I will offer an extra key to the vehicle, kept with someone other than the driver, and not in luggage, so that if one key is lost or locked in, they don't have to call a locksmith or break a window. Safety and savings.
-=-When we got the locked-out situation resolved, we stayed home. I talked with him briefly at the time and then later that night about my concerns and disappointments (at missing the get-together). I don't think he would have resorted to that kind of behavior if I had really understood and respected how much he wanted to stay home, so I considered it a mama-learning moment, too. I also felt a mixture of relief and flatness, and wondered what the coming weeks would hold.-=-
Those emotions, that whole range of up to down, around and around... I've had all those in the past week, too. Those aren't bad, and each time, the thoughts will be more full of options and experience and wisdom.
-=-I wonder if it's a matter of weighing the circumstances each time there's a refusal: the kids' ages, their general proclivities, the way they usually respond to change, what win-win is possible, the intensity of their refusal and what else might be behind it, what you've committed to, your own motives for going and what you think they'd get out of it, what you're willing to do to get them there. -=-
Absolutely. "It depends." And the more factors a parent learns to see and consider, the more clearly those options and realities can be shared with children, to help them learn to make decisions, too.
My kids are immeasurably better at making decisions about large things and small than I was when I was their age and older.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
If he was old enough and aware enough to have done that with premeditation (if I lock the keys in, we can't go), it wasn't a good thing for him to do. I would ask him how he would feel if you hadn't wanted him to use the computer and so had turned off the electricity to the whole house.
In our family, having a running vehicle has always been considered a safety feature. We can get in and get away from the house in any weather, if necessary (house on fire or whatever, we have another shelter, that moves). It's the way to get someone to an emergency room more quickly than an ambulance if they're broken or bleeding. (Throes of death, ambulance would be better, but for kid emergencies, cars are perfect.)
Last weekend we left town; I took an extra key.
Anytime anyone leave town, Keith or I will offer an extra key to the vehicle, kept with someone other than the driver, and not in luggage, so that if one key is lost or locked in, they don't have to call a locksmith or break a window. Safety and savings.
-=-When we got the locked-out situation resolved, we stayed home. I talked with him briefly at the time and then later that night about my concerns and disappointments (at missing the get-together). I don't think he would have resorted to that kind of behavior if I had really understood and respected how much he wanted to stay home, so I considered it a mama-learning moment, too. I also felt a mixture of relief and flatness, and wondered what the coming weeks would hold.-=-
Those emotions, that whole range of up to down, around and around... I've had all those in the past week, too. Those aren't bad, and each time, the thoughts will be more full of options and experience and wisdom.
-=-I wonder if it's a matter of weighing the circumstances each time there's a refusal: the kids' ages, their general proclivities, the way they usually respond to change, what win-win is possible, the intensity of their refusal and what else might be behind it, what you've committed to, your own motives for going and what you think they'd get out of it, what you're willing to do to get them there. -=-
Absolutely. "It depends." And the more factors a parent learns to see and consider, the more clearly those options and realities can be shared with children, to help them learn to make decisions, too.
My kids are immeasurably better at making decisions about large things and small than I was when I was their age and older.
Sandra
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malibu_n_milk2000
Thanks everyone for replying to my questions...
I guess as my kids are so little, but thinking about it, my toddler never has tantrums, just upsets or frustrations with toys, and he's pretty understanding and patient for a 2 yo, so maybe thats a sign in itself.
Emma
> What kind of answer are you expecting to that? An age? A length of time?Yes, Sandra, thinking about it I think the question I was trying to ask was around 'when will I see results or know its working?'...
>
> Would you ask "When does a child learn to read?" or "When does a baby learn to walk"?
I guess as my kids are so little, but thinking about it, my toddler never has tantrums, just upsets or frustrations with toys, and he's pretty understanding and patient for a 2 yo, so maybe thats a sign in itself.
Emma
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-If so where do you draw the line or I mean how do you create it so that the children also respect the parents needs / desires? -=-
>
> They didn't do things because they respected my needs. they did it because I persuaded them that it would be fun, and then I made sure it was fun.
>
> -=-As little children its essential that we're meeting their needs, and then we are modelling that for them, but when and how does the transition happen that they also start doing that in return?
> -=-
>
> What kind of answer are you expecting to that? An age? A length of time?
>
> Would you ask "When does a child learn to read?" or "When does a baby learn to walk"?
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Rachael
-=- I think the word "control" and all the images and ideas that go with it is too jagged a thing to have in an unschooling nest. Options and choices are softer. They're more realistic, and nearer the truth. -=-
Thanks Sandra, I guess I was seeing it more in lieu of my own upbringing where clothes were purchased for me that I did not want, and I was made to eat food (and finish it) that did not appeal to me. As a child, up until about 18 most decisions were made for me, and I had little or no say in the matter. (Hence, my own feelings/baggage of no control over my own life). Since I do not choose these things for my boys I was seeing it as them having control of the situation. It makes sense though as options and choices though, because that is truly more of what I give them. It have a nicer feel to it too.
Rachael
Thanks Sandra, I guess I was seeing it more in lieu of my own upbringing where clothes were purchased for me that I did not want, and I was made to eat food (and finish it) that did not appeal to me. As a child, up until about 18 most decisions were made for me, and I had little or no say in the matter. (Hence, my own feelings/baggage of no control over my own life). Since I do not choose these things for my boys I was seeing it as them having control of the situation. It makes sense though as options and choices though, because that is truly more of what I give them. It have a nicer feel to it too.
Rachael
Sandra Dodd
-=- I was trying to ask was around 'when will I see results or know its working?'...-=-
One thing school does is provide results, regularly. Homework grades. Report cards. Crafts projects brought home. Student/teacher conferences. Those things are done mostly so that the parents are placated and reassured that the teachers are working enough to justify their salaries.
When people move toward unschooling but they think they don't need to deschool, they will continue to ask questions that they won't be asking once they read enough and try enough that unschooling starts to work and they see it themselves in their own family. If they cling to questions and think they need to understand it before they can do it, they'll be trying to understand it with school-colored glasses.
Unschooling results are in the moment. Peace. Learning. Joy.
If someone has a deadline by which they want to "know it's working" or "see results," I suspect sometimes that they're considering putting their kids in school if they don't see those results.
If school is right over your shoulder, you might never know unschooling to work, or see unschooling results.
If school is NOT right over your shoulder, don't look for results.
Will water boil if you put a pot of water on a sufficiently hot fire?
"A watche pot never boils" means looking at it doesn't make it boil any faster, it just wastes your time and energy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
One thing school does is provide results, regularly. Homework grades. Report cards. Crafts projects brought home. Student/teacher conferences. Those things are done mostly so that the parents are placated and reassured that the teachers are working enough to justify their salaries.
When people move toward unschooling but they think they don't need to deschool, they will continue to ask questions that they won't be asking once they read enough and try enough that unschooling starts to work and they see it themselves in their own family. If they cling to questions and think they need to understand it before they can do it, they'll be trying to understand it with school-colored glasses.
Unschooling results are in the moment. Peace. Learning. Joy.
If someone has a deadline by which they want to "know it's working" or "see results," I suspect sometimes that they're considering putting their kids in school if they don't see those results.
If school is right over your shoulder, you might never know unschooling to work, or see unschooling results.
If school is NOT right over your shoulder, don't look for results.
Will water boil if you put a pot of water on a sufficiently hot fire?
"A watche pot never boils" means looking at it doesn't make it boil any faster, it just wastes your time and energy.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- As a child, up until about 18 most decisions were made for me, and I had little or no say in the matter. (Hence, my own feelings/baggage of no control over my own life).-=-
When you say "yes" to one of your children, if you occasionally picture yourself at their age and imagine what it would have been like for you to have had similar options, I think you'll find some healing for your inner child. Your memories can be seen, heard and soothed that way, and your decisions concerning your children might not always be so reactionary or seem so extreme. If learning, safety and comfort are more important that your controlling them, then you can sometimes remember that in your own childhood, learning, safety and comfort would have felt good, as primary considerations.
I don't mean to focus on your childhood or dredge out all the sorrows, just to kind of touch your baby self on the forehead with a little blessing from time to time, in memory. Tell her it could have been better, but that it's okay, maybe. She (your memories of the feelings you had) can help you (and your children, and your whole re-integrating more peaceful self) have better moments now.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
When you say "yes" to one of your children, if you occasionally picture yourself at their age and imagine what it would have been like for you to have had similar options, I think you'll find some healing for your inner child. Your memories can be seen, heard and soothed that way, and your decisions concerning your children might not always be so reactionary or seem so extreme. If learning, safety and comfort are more important that your controlling them, then you can sometimes remember that in your own childhood, learning, safety and comfort would have felt good, as primary considerations.
I don't mean to focus on your childhood or dredge out all the sorrows, just to kind of touch your baby self on the forehead with a little blessing from time to time, in memory. Tell her it could have been better, but that it's okay, maybe. She (your memories of the feelings you had) can help you (and your children, and your whole re-integrating more peaceful self) have better moments now.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Pam Sorooshian
On 9/20/2011 1:59 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
college economics). On the form it asks them to give a criticism. A
student said, "She makes it seem easy and not really hard - I think it
could be more work."
Now - maybe this person wants the class to be more demanding by covering
more material or get into more depth - that would be a reasonable
complaint. But, honestly, the first part seems like a compliment, not a
criticism. I think I do a good job of making it seem easy because I
don't try to make it seem more complicated than it needs to be by
focusing on major principles as opposed to less-important details. But I
know a lot of teachers try to make things seem more difficult than
necessary - to make themselves seem smarter and to elevate their status
and, yes, to justify their salaries.
Another student said, "She is really good at putting economics into the
lamest terms." At first I was taken aback by that one - then realized
the student meant "layman's terms."
Anyway - this is a HUGE difference between parents versus teachers. I'm
not sure that this has really ever been discussed much by homeschoolers
- but I think a LOT of teachers try to make learning material seem more
difficult than it is because that's the justification for their job.
They very frequently require students to learn a ridiculous amount of
trivial material that will be promptly forgotten as soon as the test is
over - and everybody KNOWS it, but nobody admits it. Taking a look at
tests proves it. For example, the test bank for the econ textbook I use
has a question that asks "Which of the following is the percentage of
total national income earned by the lowest 20 percent of households? (A)
2% (B) 3% (C) 4% (D) 5%
This is so lame --- what is important is that the student knows it is a
really small percentage while the richest 20 percent of the households
earn about half of all national income (and it doesn't matter if it is
49% or 51%, either. So students have to spend time trying to remember
EXACTLY what percentage it is and they lose track of the really
interesting bigger picture. Why ask them to memorize this exact number
(which isn't even the exact number since that varies over time,
anyway)? Because then lots of them miss that question and the teacher
gets to give them a lower grade which makes it seem like the teacher
knows so much more and the students don't and again, justifies the
teacher's job and salary.
-pam
> One thing school does is provide results, regularly. Homework grades.I just got my student evaluations (of me) from last semester (I teach
> Report cards. Crafts projects brought home. Student/teacher
> conferences. Those things are done mostly so that the parents are
> placated and reassured that the teachers are working enough to justify
> their salaries.
college economics). On the form it asks them to give a criticism. A
student said, "She makes it seem easy and not really hard - I think it
could be more work."
Now - maybe this person wants the class to be more demanding by covering
more material or get into more depth - that would be a reasonable
complaint. But, honestly, the first part seems like a compliment, not a
criticism. I think I do a good job of making it seem easy because I
don't try to make it seem more complicated than it needs to be by
focusing on major principles as opposed to less-important details. But I
know a lot of teachers try to make things seem more difficult than
necessary - to make themselves seem smarter and to elevate their status
and, yes, to justify their salaries.
Another student said, "She is really good at putting economics into the
lamest terms." At first I was taken aback by that one - then realized
the student meant "layman's terms."
Anyway - this is a HUGE difference between parents versus teachers. I'm
not sure that this has really ever been discussed much by homeschoolers
- but I think a LOT of teachers try to make learning material seem more
difficult than it is because that's the justification for their job.
They very frequently require students to learn a ridiculous amount of
trivial material that will be promptly forgotten as soon as the test is
over - and everybody KNOWS it, but nobody admits it. Taking a look at
tests proves it. For example, the test bank for the econ textbook I use
has a question that asks "Which of the following is the percentage of
total national income earned by the lowest 20 percent of households? (A)
2% (B) 3% (C) 4% (D) 5%
This is so lame --- what is important is that the student knows it is a
really small percentage while the richest 20 percent of the households
earn about half of all national income (and it doesn't matter if it is
49% or 51%, either. So students have to spend time trying to remember
EXACTLY what percentage it is and they lose track of the really
interesting bigger picture. Why ask them to memorize this exact number
(which isn't even the exact number since that varies over time,
anyway)? Because then lots of them miss that question and the teacher
gets to give them a lower grade which makes it seem like the teacher
knows so much more and the students don't and again, justifies the
teacher's job and salary.
-pam
Pam Sorooshian
On 9/20/2011 1:59 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
trying to make decisions that make it go up, not down, as much as
possible. Happiness is highly underrated as a way of gauging "results,"
I think.
-pam
> Unschooling results are in the moment. Peace. Learning. Joy.I imagine that I'm taking my family's "happiness" temperature -- and
trying to make decisions that make it go up, not down, as much as
possible. Happiness is highly underrated as a way of gauging "results,"
I think.
-pam
Schuyler
>>> I was trying to ask was around 'when will I see results or know itsKeep a journal, an on-line blog or a scrapbook of days or just a photo album.
>>>working?'<<<
Don't necessarily write down the learning moments over the more average moments.
Just write down what happens. A conversation that you had, a playful moment, a
game, a fort, a day out. In that collection of memories you will find lots and
lots of results. You will struggle to not see how well it is working. And it
will be a lovely little thing to hold and keep in later days.
Schuyler
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Jenny Cyphers
***Unschooling results are in the moment. Peace. Learning. Joy.***
And sometimes it leads to surprising results later where a child has an AHA moment. In my experience, it's been something I've seen as the parent, but my child hasn't, no matter how much I've talked or shown, or helped with. Chamille just had one such moment the other day in regards to how she views and treats her younger sister.
Mostly she's been a very patient and kind big sister, but her little sister is 7 yrs younger and isn't always the easiest person to get along with. Their dad and I have been helping for years by keeping them apart when needed, remaining peaceful and calm as much as possible and talking to each of them about how to get along better. Their relationship has always been better than most sibling, but sometimes that "annoying little/big sister" bug would reach them and they'd react, sometimes badly, towards one another. Chamille realized of her own accord that her sister never gets upset for no reason, something we've been saying for years, even if the reason seems silly or inconsequential.
Chamille realized this, as an AHA moment. She cried over the many moments that she's caused her sister to cry and be upset without understanding why and reacting to it. She's suddenly her sister's biggest advocate.
That was the result of many moments of focusing on peace, learning, and joy. It's not really a "school" related learning moment, although, I believe it goes under the category of getting along with others, which schools like to believe they hold all the cards on.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
And sometimes it leads to surprising results later where a child has an AHA moment. In my experience, it's been something I've seen as the parent, but my child hasn't, no matter how much I've talked or shown, or helped with. Chamille just had one such moment the other day in regards to how she views and treats her younger sister.
Mostly she's been a very patient and kind big sister, but her little sister is 7 yrs younger and isn't always the easiest person to get along with. Their dad and I have been helping for years by keeping them apart when needed, remaining peaceful and calm as much as possible and talking to each of them about how to get along better. Their relationship has always been better than most sibling, but sometimes that "annoying little/big sister" bug would reach them and they'd react, sometimes badly, towards one another. Chamille realized of her own accord that her sister never gets upset for no reason, something we've been saying for years, even if the reason seems silly or inconsequential.
Chamille realized this, as an AHA moment. She cried over the many moments that she's caused her sister to cry and be upset without understanding why and reacting to it. She's suddenly her sister's biggest advocate.
That was the result of many moments of focusing on peace, learning, and joy. It's not really a "school" related learning moment, although, I believe it goes under the category of getting along with others, which schools like to believe they hold all the cards on.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Chamille realized this, as an AHA moment. She cried over the many moments that she's caused her sister to cry and be upset without understanding why and reacting to it. She's suddenly her sister's biggest advocate.
-=-That was the result of many moments of focusing on peace, learning, and joy. It's not really a "school" related learning moment, although, I believe it goes under the category of getting along with others, which schools like to believe they hold all the cards on.-=-
Yes. "Socialization."
And now (to prevent lawsuits), schools are spending much time and money on "anti-bullying" campaigns.
Last night Holly had a brand new phone, and somehow it wasn't ringing so she thought her boyfriend wasn't calling her. He was trying to. She was hungry but didn't like my suggestions. We had been at the phone store a long time, and Marty and Keith had already eaten. She ate a little, but was approaching a melt-down. I got frustrated with her and went to another part of the house, but I did ask Marty and his girlfriend to see if they could help her. I slipped Marty enough cash to take her out to to eat, too, so they all went and sat at Village Inn, sorted out her phone, got her happy again, and I calmed down.
It was a nice thing for them to do for her. They had other plans, but she was in need.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-That was the result of many moments of focusing on peace, learning, and joy. It's not really a "school" related learning moment, although, I believe it goes under the category of getting along with others, which schools like to believe they hold all the cards on.-=-
Yes. "Socialization."
And now (to prevent lawsuits), schools are spending much time and money on "anti-bullying" campaigns.
Last night Holly had a brand new phone, and somehow it wasn't ringing so she thought her boyfriend wasn't calling her. He was trying to. She was hungry but didn't like my suggestions. We had been at the phone store a long time, and Marty and Keith had already eaten. She ate a little, but was approaching a melt-down. I got frustrated with her and went to another part of the house, but I did ask Marty and his girlfriend to see if they could help her. I slipped Marty enough cash to take her out to to eat, too, so they all went and sat at Village Inn, sorted out her phone, got her happy again, and I calmed down.
It was a nice thing for them to do for her. They had other plans, but she was in need.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]