Intuitive parenting and unschooling
fbyrem
Hello all,
It's been a long time since I've visited this list, but glad I looked you up again. I love the emphasis on the examined life I see here.
My own journey toward radical unschooling has been rocky to say the least. Can't even count the internal battles I went through in order to find myself, find my own path, and respond to my family accordingly.
My son was opposed to being 'taught' anything at all. I was so inclined to 'make him learn'. Wow, that was a mistake! However gentle my approach, he always 'smelled a rat'! My main concern was his reading....rather NOT reading.
My son is a very 'spirited' child, and I knew he would not make it in public school. As I wrestled through my internal demons, I was blessed to have found a democratic school in our area.
Still, he didn't request any 'teaching' of any sort. He just played all day at school.
When he was 12 years old, I took him out of school. I'd try again.
By that time, I had pretty much abandoned all hope that he would ever let anyone teach him anything. But this was a very crucial time in our lives, and during the process, I released him....I threw out any 'rule books', didn't count so much on the great writers of the unschooling movement to tell me how to do it.
I began relying completely on my intuition, instincts, and spirituality to lead me in the right path, and discovered that this was what I believed in all along, but fear of 'what THEY would think', 'could I get in trouble', 'am I neglecting my son', and all those haunting questions and worries had kept me from following my own instincts.
The more I released my worries and replaced them with trust and faith in my son, and my own heart, our journey began to flourish.
At 15, he has taught himself to read (behind my back...lol) and has become very knowledgeable in so many areas of his interests....science and history especially, but many other interests as well.
Most importantly, our relationship has flourished.
He has chosen to return to the democratic school one day a week, in order to increase his social life, and participate in new things, and learn new things....not only willingly, but he's excited about learning now. Now that I'm 'off his back'....lol.
I also highly recommend this school for anyone who lives in the Eugene, Oregon area. If anyone is interested, please email me through my profile.
Mostly, the main point I wanted to make is that when we follow our instincts and intuition, we just can't go wrong. If anyone is having trouble identifying what your true instincts and intuition are telling you, just ask your heart. Question anything that disturbs your heart, and do some personal investigation into what it is that disturbs you and why.
I hope this has been helpful for anyone who is going through the struggles I've been through.
Keep the Faith,
Faye
It's been a long time since I've visited this list, but glad I looked you up again. I love the emphasis on the examined life I see here.
My own journey toward radical unschooling has been rocky to say the least. Can't even count the internal battles I went through in order to find myself, find my own path, and respond to my family accordingly.
My son was opposed to being 'taught' anything at all. I was so inclined to 'make him learn'. Wow, that was a mistake! However gentle my approach, he always 'smelled a rat'! My main concern was his reading....rather NOT reading.
My son is a very 'spirited' child, and I knew he would not make it in public school. As I wrestled through my internal demons, I was blessed to have found a democratic school in our area.
Still, he didn't request any 'teaching' of any sort. He just played all day at school.
When he was 12 years old, I took him out of school. I'd try again.
By that time, I had pretty much abandoned all hope that he would ever let anyone teach him anything. But this was a very crucial time in our lives, and during the process, I released him....I threw out any 'rule books', didn't count so much on the great writers of the unschooling movement to tell me how to do it.
I began relying completely on my intuition, instincts, and spirituality to lead me in the right path, and discovered that this was what I believed in all along, but fear of 'what THEY would think', 'could I get in trouble', 'am I neglecting my son', and all those haunting questions and worries had kept me from following my own instincts.
The more I released my worries and replaced them with trust and faith in my son, and my own heart, our journey began to flourish.
At 15, he has taught himself to read (behind my back...lol) and has become very knowledgeable in so many areas of his interests....science and history especially, but many other interests as well.
Most importantly, our relationship has flourished.
He has chosen to return to the democratic school one day a week, in order to increase his social life, and participate in new things, and learn new things....not only willingly, but he's excited about learning now. Now that I'm 'off his back'....lol.
I also highly recommend this school for anyone who lives in the Eugene, Oregon area. If anyone is interested, please email me through my profile.
Mostly, the main point I wanted to make is that when we follow our instincts and intuition, we just can't go wrong. If anyone is having trouble identifying what your true instincts and intuition are telling you, just ask your heart. Question anything that disturbs your heart, and do some personal investigation into what it is that disturbs you and why.
I hope this has been helpful for anyone who is going through the struggles I've been through.
Keep the Faith,
Faye
Robin Bentley
>It shows in your words that you don't seem to really understand
> By that time, I had pretty much abandoned all hope that he would
> ever let anyone teach him anything. But this was a very crucial
> time in our lives, and during the process, I released him....I threw
> out any 'rule books', didn't count so much on the great writers of
> the unschooling movement to tell me how to do it.
unschooling. It isn't about teaching at all. Maybe a bit more reading
of the great writers might have helped you after all.
>He "learned" to read, right?
> At 15, he has taught himself to read (behind my back...lol) and has
> become very knowledgeable in so many areas of his
> interests....science and history especially, but many other
> interests as well.
>Getting off someone's back isn't something to "lol" about. Think how
> He has chosen to return to the democratic school one day a week, in
> order to increase his social life, and participate in new things,
> and learn new things....not only willingly, but he's excited about
> learning now. Now that I'm 'off his back'....lol.
he might feel. Relief? It should be humbling to a parent to see that
all their years of pushing and misunderstanding were unhelpful.
>School of any kind isn't the focus here, nor are specific locations
> I also highly recommend this school for anyone who lives in the
> Eugene, Oregon area. If anyone is interested, please email me
> through my profile.
for an international discussion group. Advertising school might be
considered misuse of list that Sandra and the moderators keep going to
help people learn without a school mindset.
>That's not true. Some people's instincts are to shame, belittle, and
> Mostly, the main point I wanted to make is that when we follow our
> instincts and intuition, we just can't go wrong.
hit their kids. It's a huge generalization that can be blown any which
way, like a dandelion's seeds.
> I hope this has been helpful for anyone who is going through theIf people are going through struggles, then talking and learning about
> struggles I've been through.
the principles of unschooling, then putting them into practice will
help more than platitudes.
Robin B.
Sandra Dodd
-=My own journey toward radical unschooling has been rocky to say the least. Can't even count the internal battles I went through in order to find myself, find my own path, and respond to my family accordingly.
-=-My son was opposed to being 'taught' anything at all. I was so inclined to 'make him learn'. Wow, that was a mistake!-=-
Of course he was opposed to that.
We could have helped you, when he was little, to stop teaching. It's the beginning of all unschooling--step away from the teaching, and turn 180 degrees toward the learning.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/howto
-=-My main concern was his reading....rather NOT reading.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/reading
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/reading/learningtoread.html
Those things were written, and had been made freely available. This list has been here for ten years, nearly.
-=-Still, he didn't request any 'teaching' of any sort.-=-
Did the democratic school tell you to wait until her "requested 'teaching'"?
Did ANY unschooler ("great writer" or otherwise) suggest that your duty as an unschooling parent was to wait until your son asked you to teach him something?
-=By that time, I had pretty much abandoned all hope that he would ever let anyone teach him anything. -=-
As long as you had that hope, you were not in the unschooling arena.
From this page, http://sandradodd.com/gettingit :
"Until a person stops doing the things that keep unschooling from working, unschooling cannot begin to work. It seems simple to me. If you're trying to listen for a sound, you have to stop talking and be still."
-=-I threw out any 'rule books', didn't count so much on the great writers of the unschooling movement to tell me how to do it.-=-
WHAT?
http://sandradodd.com/principles
What "rule book" did you think you had before that? I wish you could re-wind and have a big do-over, and live by principles, and have a great relationship with him five or ten years ago.
-=-I also highly recommend this school for anyone who lives in the Eugene, Oregon area. If anyone is interested, please email me through my profile.-=-
This list isn't a good place to recommend a school, but I am glad things are going better for you and your son, and I'm sorry you had the struggles you had, which so many people were trying to prevent for you. You've been a member of this list since August 2002. I wish you had been reading here instead of struggling and teaching and putting your son in school.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
-=-My son was opposed to being 'taught' anything at all. I was so inclined to 'make him learn'. Wow, that was a mistake!-=-
Of course he was opposed to that.
We could have helped you, when he was little, to stop teaching. It's the beginning of all unschooling--step away from the teaching, and turn 180 degrees toward the learning.
http://sandradodd.com/deschooling
http://sandradodd.com/howto
-=-My main concern was his reading....rather NOT reading.-=-
http://sandradodd.com/reading
http://joyfullyrejoycing.com/academics/reading/learningtoread.html
Those things were written, and had been made freely available. This list has been here for ten years, nearly.
-=-Still, he didn't request any 'teaching' of any sort.-=-
Did the democratic school tell you to wait until her "requested 'teaching'"?
Did ANY unschooler ("great writer" or otherwise) suggest that your duty as an unschooling parent was to wait until your son asked you to teach him something?
-=By that time, I had pretty much abandoned all hope that he would ever let anyone teach him anything. -=-
As long as you had that hope, you were not in the unschooling arena.
From this page, http://sandradodd.com/gettingit :
"Until a person stops doing the things that keep unschooling from working, unschooling cannot begin to work. It seems simple to me. If you're trying to listen for a sound, you have to stop talking and be still."
-=-I threw out any 'rule books', didn't count so much on the great writers of the unschooling movement to tell me how to do it.-=-
WHAT?
http://sandradodd.com/principles
What "rule book" did you think you had before that? I wish you could re-wind and have a big do-over, and live by principles, and have a great relationship with him five or ten years ago.
-=-I also highly recommend this school for anyone who lives in the Eugene, Oregon area. If anyone is interested, please email me through my profile.-=-
This list isn't a good place to recommend a school, but I am glad things are going better for you and your son, and I'm sorry you had the struggles you had, which so many people were trying to prevent for you. You've been a member of this list since August 2002. I wish you had been reading here instead of struggling and teaching and putting your son in school.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Mostly, the main point I wanted to make is that when we follow our instincts and intuition, we just can't go wrong. If anyone is having trouble identifying what your true instincts and intuition are telling you, just ask your heart. Question anything that disturbs your heart, and do some personal investigation into what it is that disturbs you and why.-=-
The first part is wrong. The second part is pretty much what unschooling involves.
Many people are damaged and hurt from a life of pressure, shame, rules, and "have to." When a person is not whole, their instincts and intuition are wounded, too. And if they have been told they were wrong and to just do what they were supposed to do, they probably gave up a long time ago.
From a wounded place, it can seem natural to yell and hit and control children. If they as their hearts whether that's wrong, their hearts might say "It's what was done to you, and you turned out fine."
When unschooling works well, the parents recover and their kids grow up without so much to recover from.
Howard Gardner lists intrapersonal intelligence as one of his original seven intelligences. Knowing oneself. Some are really great at "asking their hearts" and for some it doesn't make sense. But everyone can learn to use all the input at their disposal, internal and external, to help them make the better choice.
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
http://sandradodd.com/choices
The criticism of points in that post is not in hopes of changing one life, but in hopes of clarifying points and ideas in order to provide tools and ideas to change the lives of the next hundred people who join this list. Twenty-four people have joined in the past seven days, and maybe more the one came back after forgetting she was on the list. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The first part is wrong. The second part is pretty much what unschooling involves.
Many people are damaged and hurt from a life of pressure, shame, rules, and "have to." When a person is not whole, their instincts and intuition are wounded, too. And if they have been told they were wrong and to just do what they were supposed to do, they probably gave up a long time ago.
From a wounded place, it can seem natural to yell and hit and control children. If they as their hearts whether that's wrong, their hearts might say "It's what was done to you, and you turned out fine."
When unschooling works well, the parents recover and their kids grow up without so much to recover from.
Howard Gardner lists intrapersonal intelligence as one of his original seven intelligences. Knowing oneself. Some are really great at "asking their hearts" and for some it doesn't make sense. But everyone can learn to use all the input at their disposal, internal and external, to help them make the better choice.
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
http://sandradodd.com/choices
The criticism of points in that post is not in hopes of changing one life, but in hopes of clarifying points and ideas in order to provide tools and ideas to change the lives of the next hundred people who join this list. Twenty-four people have joined in the past seven days, and maybe more the one came back after forgetting she was on the list. :-)
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Fri, Sep 16, 2011 at 12:17 PM, Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
abused or neglected their children.
I came to see the words, "Well, that's how I was raised and I turned out
okay..." as a huge red flag. It seems to be the last rationalization for a
bad (or at least less than optimal) behavior by a parent. My husband and I
now joke about it when we are correcting our own first reaction (or what
could be called our first instinct).
Instead of trying to follow instinct, I try to follow what brings peace and
happiness. What makes my children smile and and lets them know that they
are valued for who they are.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **When I was a social worker, I heard these words from many parents who had
>
> >>>>From a wounded place, it can seem natural to yell and hit and control
> children. If they as their hearts whether that's wrong, their hearts might
> say "It's what was done to you, and you turned out fine." <<<<
>
abused or neglected their children.
I came to see the words, "Well, that's how I was raised and I turned out
okay..." as a huge red flag. It seems to be the last rationalization for a
bad (or at least less than optimal) behavior by a parent. My husband and I
now joke about it when we are correcting our own first reaction (or what
could be called our first instinct).
Instead of trying to follow instinct, I try to follow what brings peace and
happiness. What makes my children smile and and lets them know that they
are valued for who they are.
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 16, 2011, at 10:49 AM, fbyrem wrote:
American society -- grow up feeling their ability to meet their needs
is in jeopardy, that they need to fight others and life to get what
they need. And the feeling remains even after they no longer have to
fight.
(Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is very useful reading)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy
And I don't mean just physical needs like growing up in poverty. It's
the emotional deprivation that's harder to see especially because it's
build into conventional parenting. And most of us grow up with the
idea that security is the be all and end all of goals (and everything
else will then fall into place), and very hard to get unless you do
everything "right" (eg the school way), that most of their "instinct"
is directed at that.
Conventional parenting and schooling is pretty much dedicated to
children being wrong at who they are and reshaping them and filling
them with other people's knowledge. People end up with baggage --
sometimes a whole crap load of baggage -- between them and figuring
out what their needs are let along empowering them to meet them.
How long will it take someone to dig through all that baggage?
I think it's only when someone is secure enough in their ability to
meet their own needs to be able to have enough left over for another
person that they can even begin to trust their instincts.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Mostly, the main point I wanted to make is that when we follow ourOur basic instinct is to survive. Some -- maybe even most people in
> instincts and intuition, we just can't go wrong.
American society -- grow up feeling their ability to meet their needs
is in jeopardy, that they need to fight others and life to get what
they need. And the feeling remains even after they no longer have to
fight.
(Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs is very useful reading)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy
And I don't mean just physical needs like growing up in poverty. It's
the emotional deprivation that's harder to see especially because it's
build into conventional parenting. And most of us grow up with the
idea that security is the be all and end all of goals (and everything
else will then fall into place), and very hard to get unless you do
everything "right" (eg the school way), that most of their "instinct"
is directed at that.
Conventional parenting and schooling is pretty much dedicated to
children being wrong at who they are and reshaping them and filling
them with other people's knowledge. People end up with baggage --
sometimes a whole crap load of baggage -- between them and figuring
out what their needs are let along empowering them to meet them.
How long will it take someone to dig through all that baggage?
I think it's only when someone is secure enough in their ability to
meet their own needs to be able to have enough left over for another
person that they can even begin to trust their instincts.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fbyrem
Besides the fact that I was completely misunderstood, I was being treated like I am some kind of idiot, with very unkind ways of communicating.
Apparently some of you can't appreciate sarcasm, nor understand that the struggles we go through to get where we are, are very real struggles.
I can't even finish writing this.
Apparently some of you can't appreciate sarcasm, nor understand that the struggles we go through to get where we are, are very real struggles.
I can't even finish writing this.
--- In [email protected], "fbyrem" <fbyrem@...> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> It's been a long time since I've visited this list, but glad I looked you up again. I love the emphasis on the examined life I see here.
>
> My own journey toward radical unschooling has been rocky to say the least. Can't even count the internal battles I went through in order to find myself, find my own path, and respond to my family accordingly.
>
> My son was opposed to being 'taught' anything at all. I was so inclined to 'make him learn'. Wow, that was a mistake! However gentle my approach, he always 'smelled a rat'! My main concern was his reading....rather NOT reading.
>
> My son is a very 'spirited' child, and I knew he would not make it in public school. As I wrestled through my internal demons, I was blessed to have found a democratic school in our area.
>
> Still, he didn't request any 'teaching' of any sort. He just played all day at school.
>
> When he was 12 years old, I took him out of school. I'd try again.
>
> By that time, I had pretty much abandoned all hope that he would ever let anyone teach him anything. But this was a very crucial time in our lives, and during the process, I released him....I threw out any 'rule books', didn't count so much on the great writers of the unschooling movement to tell me how to do it.
>
> I began relying completely on my intuition, instincts, and spirituality to lead me in the right path, and discovered that this was what I believed in all along, but fear of 'what THEY would think', 'could I get in trouble', 'am I neglecting my son', and all those haunting questions and worries had kept me from following my own instincts.
>
> The more I released my worries and replaced them with trust and faith in my son, and my own heart, our journey began to flourish.
>
> At 15, he has taught himself to read (behind my back...lol) and has become very knowledgeable in so many areas of his interests....science and history especially, but many other interests as well.
>
> Most importantly, our relationship has flourished.
>
> He has chosen to return to the democratic school one day a week, in order to increase his social life, and participate in new things, and learn new things....not only willingly, but he's excited about learning now. Now that I'm 'off his back'....lol.
>
> I also highly recommend this school for anyone who lives in the Eugene, Oregon area. If anyone is interested, please email me through my profile.
>
> Mostly, the main point I wanted to make is that when we follow our instincts and intuition, we just can't go wrong. If anyone is having trouble identifying what your true instincts and intuition are telling you, just ask your heart. Question anything that disturbs your heart, and do some personal investigation into what it is that disturbs you and why.
>
> I hope this has been helpful for anyone who is going through the struggles I've been through.
>
> Keep the Faith,
> Faye
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 16, 2011, at 5:16 PM, fbyrem wrote:
and inside out, to examine them from the view point of whether they
will help someone reading make better unschooling choices or make
choices that turn them away.
Any ideas sent to the list WILL be dissected.
I'm sorry you felt blindsided but the purpose of the list is stated
very clearly in several places so to warn people before they post that
this list is DIFFERENT that what they expect.
People who can separate themselves from their ideas can find a great
deal of value in digging under the hood of ideas.
People who feel attacked when their ideas are pulled apart find the
list very uncomfortable. The warnings are there because it's very
saddening to see people hurt when the list does what it promises it
will do for members.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I was being treated like I am some kind of idiotThe purpose of the list is to dissect ideas, to turn them upside down
and inside out, to examine them from the view point of whether they
will help someone reading make better unschooling choices or make
choices that turn them away.
Any ideas sent to the list WILL be dissected.
I'm sorry you felt blindsided but the purpose of the list is stated
very clearly in several places so to warn people before they post that
this list is DIFFERENT that what they expect.
People who can separate themselves from their ideas can find a great
deal of value in digging under the hood of ideas.
People who feel attacked when their ideas are pulled apart find the
list very uncomfortable. The warnings are there because it's very
saddening to see people hurt when the list does what it promises it
will do for members.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-Apparently some of you can't appreciate sarcasm, nor understand that the struggles we go through to get where we are, are very real struggles.-=-
The struggles you went through were hard on you and on your son. That's harsh. I don't doubt you struggled.
The point of those who responded was that others don't need to struggle that way, if they want to unschool, because of this list, Joyce's site, my site, and other resources. Not all of those were around when you started unschooling, but some were and they have grown and flourished. The resources were here for you to have help unschooling. The resources are here for people who begin unschooling this week, this month, this year.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The struggles you went through were hard on you and on your son. That's harsh. I don't doubt you struggled.
The point of those who responded was that others don't need to struggle that way, if they want to unschool, because of this list, Joyce's site, my site, and other resources. Not all of those were around when you started unschooling, but some were and they have grown and flourished. The resources were here for you to have help unschooling. The resources are here for people who begin unschooling this week, this month, this year.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Besides the fact that I was completely misunderstood***
From your first post:
***Mostly, the main point I wanted to make is that when we follow our instincts and intuition, we just can't go wrong. If anyone is having trouble identifying what your true instincts and intuition are telling you, just ask your heart. Question anything that disturbs your heart, and do some personal investigation into what it is that disturbs you and why.***
***I hope this has been helpful for anyone who is going through the struggles I've been through.***
It was hard to understand what exactly you were wanting to express. If you've struggled greatly by following your instincts and intuitions, it seems that giving people that advice is perhaps not a very nice thing.
It doesn't really matter what exactly you did with your kid, the fact that your instincts and intuition led to troubles, struggles, and school is the MOST telling part of what you wrote. Perhaps you could premise it with, "here's what NOT to do if you want peaceful happy unschooling to flourish: push, teach, and put your child in school, while ignoring helpful free advice out there."
People have been writing about unschooling for years. Those people are moms and dads with kids, spending valuable time to help others freely. Whether you meant to or not, what you wrote was insulting to all those people who have spent years writing so that others can get to unschooling faster and easier. Nobody HAS to read about unschooling. Nobody has to unschool, public school is there for kids and parents to use. If ANY parent wants to do something other than the status quo, it seems like a really good idea to do the research and take the time to understand the alternatives. If any parent really wants to unschool, understand it, read about it, get to the heart of it and implement it well.
It sounds like, and this might be another misunderstanding, that you wanted to unschool, but didn't understand it well enough to get it up and working, so you opted for another form of education and that's fine, but don't now call what you did unschooling. Your child is in school, has been in school, and plans to continue in school. That's NOT unschooling, no matter which way you look at it. It's not a bad thing, democratic schools are interesting, but one has to question why you are here talking about unschooling, something you have never done and don't plan on doing.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
From your first post:
***Mostly, the main point I wanted to make is that when we follow our instincts and intuition, we just can't go wrong. If anyone is having trouble identifying what your true instincts and intuition are telling you, just ask your heart. Question anything that disturbs your heart, and do some personal investigation into what it is that disturbs you and why.***
***I hope this has been helpful for anyone who is going through the struggles I've been through.***
It was hard to understand what exactly you were wanting to express. If you've struggled greatly by following your instincts and intuitions, it seems that giving people that advice is perhaps not a very nice thing.
It doesn't really matter what exactly you did with your kid, the fact that your instincts and intuition led to troubles, struggles, and school is the MOST telling part of what you wrote. Perhaps you could premise it with, "here's what NOT to do if you want peaceful happy unschooling to flourish: push, teach, and put your child in school, while ignoring helpful free advice out there."
People have been writing about unschooling for years. Those people are moms and dads with kids, spending valuable time to help others freely. Whether you meant to or not, what you wrote was insulting to all those people who have spent years writing so that others can get to unschooling faster and easier. Nobody HAS to read about unschooling. Nobody has to unschool, public school is there for kids and parents to use. If ANY parent wants to do something other than the status quo, it seems like a really good idea to do the research and take the time to understand the alternatives. If any parent really wants to unschool, understand it, read about it, get to the heart of it and implement it well.
It sounds like, and this might be another misunderstanding, that you wanted to unschool, but didn't understand it well enough to get it up and working, so you opted for another form of education and that's fine, but don't now call what you did unschooling. Your child is in school, has been in school, and plans to continue in school. That's NOT unschooling, no matter which way you look at it. It's not a bad thing, democratic schools are interesting, but one has to question why you are here talking about unschooling, something you have never done and don't plan on doing.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fbyrem
I have no problem having my ideas dissected. The unexamined life is not worth living.
I do have a problem, however, with being scraped over the coals with harsh and uncaring words, when my intentions were good.
If this is an example of how you model good behavior for your children, I pity those children whose parents have a good idea and beat people up those ideas.
A true discussion and examination of ideas and beliefs doesn't have to be so harsh.
There were several responses to my original post, that made me wonder if you were talking to me, or whether you had even read my post. If you're going to throw a hatchet at someone, get your facts straight first. A good way of doing that is to ask questions. Ask for clarification, not have a temper tantrum when someone who 'seems' to disagree with your ideas comes along.
My post was completely misunderstood. The references I made that 'triggered' such childish behavior in some, were misunderstood completely.
I do have a problem, however, with being scraped over the coals with harsh and uncaring words, when my intentions were good.
If this is an example of how you model good behavior for your children, I pity those children whose parents have a good idea and beat people up those ideas.
A true discussion and examination of ideas and beliefs doesn't have to be so harsh.
There were several responses to my original post, that made me wonder if you were talking to me, or whether you had even read my post. If you're going to throw a hatchet at someone, get your facts straight first. A good way of doing that is to ask questions. Ask for clarification, not have a temper tantrum when someone who 'seems' to disagree with your ideas comes along.
My post was completely misunderstood. The references I made that 'triggered' such childish behavior in some, were misunderstood completely.
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Sep 16, 2011, at 5:16 PM, fbyrem wrote:
>
> > I was being treated like I am some kind of idiot
>
> The purpose of the list is to dissect ideas, to turn them upside down
> and inside out, to examine them from the view point of whether they
> will help someone reading make better unschooling choices or make
> choices that turn them away.
>
> Any ideas sent to the list WILL be dissected.
>
> I'm sorry you felt blindsided but the purpose of the list is stated
> very clearly in several places so to warn people before they post that
> this list is DIFFERENT that what they expect.
>
> People who can separate themselves from their ideas can find a great
> deal of value in digging under the hood of ideas.
>
> People who feel attacked when their ideas are pulled apart find the
> list very uncomfortable. The warnings are there because it's very
> saddening to see people hurt when the list does what it promises it
> will do for members.
>
> Joyce
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-There were several responses to my original post, that made me wonder if you were talking to me, or whether you had even read my post. If you're going to throw a hatchet at someone, get your facts straight first. A good way of doing that is to ask questions. Ask for clarification, not have a temper tantrum when someone who 'seems' to disagree with your ideas comes along.-=-
No one threw anything at you.
No one had a temper tantrum (unless you did).
If what you write on this list doesn't help others understand unschooling more clearly, then it's an inappropriate post for Always Learning. There are a hundred thousand places for people to read about parenting, but very few where unschooling is discussed.
We were NOT "talking to you." We were discussing the ideas you brought to the list.
You don't need to disagree or agree with the principles behind unschooling. You don't need to understand them. It would be better for your family if you did. It would be better for this list if your posts were either questions about unschooling or discussion aimed at understanding it better. You don't have to post to the list, but you chose to. No one had to respond, but some chose to, and they chose to in order to help other unschoolers understand unschooling better.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
No one threw anything at you.
No one had a temper tantrum (unless you did).
If what you write on this list doesn't help others understand unschooling more clearly, then it's an inappropriate post for Always Learning. There are a hundred thousand places for people to read about parenting, but very few where unschooling is discussed.
We were NOT "talking to you." We were discussing the ideas you brought to the list.
You don't need to disagree or agree with the principles behind unschooling. You don't need to understand them. It would be better for your family if you did. It would be better for this list if your posts were either questions about unschooling or discussion aimed at understanding it better. You don't have to post to the list, but you chose to. No one had to respond, but some chose to, and they chose to in order to help other unschoolers understand unschooling better.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
>It's good to imagine people who reply, even those who dissect posts,
> I do have a problem, however, with being scraped over the coals with
> harsh and uncaring words, when my intentions were good.
as providing straightforward feedback with a smile. Not a smirk, but a
thoughtful "you might want to think about this another way" smile.
>I'm not sure what you mean by the above sentence.
> If this is an example of how you model good behavior for your
> children, I pity those children whose parents have a good idea and
> beat people up those ideas.
I wonder what your expectation was when you posted, if you knew this
was a discussion list for unschooling principles? I wonder, as Jenny
did, if you realized that you might have insulted not a few of the
"great unschooling writers" who are on this list with your words?
> A true discussion and examination of ideas and beliefs doesn't haveWhat was the purpose of your post?
> to be so harsh.
> There were several responses to my original post, that made me
> wonder if you were talking to me, or whether you had even read my
> post. If you're going to throw a hatchet at someone, get your facts
> straight first. A good way of doing that is to ask questions. Ask
> for clarification, not have a temper tantrum when someone who
> 'seems' to disagree with your ideas comes along.
>I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean. Can you explain
> My post was completely misunderstood. The references I made that
> 'triggered' such childish behavior in some, were misunderstood
> completely.
which references you made that were completely misunderstood?
My impression from your post (and your words, as written, are all we
have to go by) is that you have misunderstood unschooling, especially
as it is presented and discussed here.
Robin B.
Jenny Cyphers
***If you're going to throw a hatchet at someone, get your facts straight first. A good way of doing that is to ask questions. Ask for clarification, not have a temper tantrum when someone who 'seems' to disagree with your ideas comes along.***
First, nobody is throwing hatchets. Second, the only facts are the ones being presented. I never got the impression that you disagreed with unschooling, just that you didn't understand it at all. You have a 15 yr old son who has been in and out of school. You've been waiting to teach him and waiting for him to read and do other schoolish things and struggling because of it.
You might have felt like you were sharing your story of how you came to unschool, but it's worth noting to others trying to get unschooling that one need not struggle until their child is 15. It's a lot of missed opportunities and missed years of unschooling. I'm sure what you did do was just fine. It's not unschooling though, nor does it mirror the process that I've seen other long time unschoolers go through. I'm glad that your relationship with your son is getting better and I'm glad that he can relax a little because his mom is trying to relax a little.
There are other parents that started unschooling with older kids too, you aren't the only one. You could share that process if you'd like to for others with kids that have experienced many years of school before unschooling. You could share what you've come to know and understand about unschooling in the last couple of years. You could share the process that you've seen you and your child go through, you could share why he's decided to go back to school. You wrote that he went back for social reasons, but even that is an interesting idea to examine, going to school for social reasons, with the potential of examining why that was the choice and not something else, some other activity. It seems to me that you both barely got through the deschooling process before jumping right back in there. That is an idea worth looking at and examining.
You came into a long time existing message board that dissects ideas. So dissect away, examine away.
***My post was completely misunderstood.***
Sometimes it's not everyone else misunderstanding you, it could be that you might not be writing in a way that people are understanding what you mean. It could be that you are thinking one thing and writing another. That phrase, "say what you mean and mean what you say", comes to mind. It could also be, and this happens a LOT, that you are writing things that you aren't meaning to write because they are deeply in bedded in your thoughts. Other people can see them because they are used to it happening enough that they recognize some of those thought patterns.
It's not harsh or uncaring to point out where there is unclear thinking and writing. I'm grateful when others do it to me because it helps me think and write better and more clear! If you want to be understood, write more clearly, or take your own advice and ask questions for clarification.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
First, nobody is throwing hatchets. Second, the only facts are the ones being presented. I never got the impression that you disagreed with unschooling, just that you didn't understand it at all. You have a 15 yr old son who has been in and out of school. You've been waiting to teach him and waiting for him to read and do other schoolish things and struggling because of it.
You might have felt like you were sharing your story of how you came to unschool, but it's worth noting to others trying to get unschooling that one need not struggle until their child is 15. It's a lot of missed opportunities and missed years of unschooling. I'm sure what you did do was just fine. It's not unschooling though, nor does it mirror the process that I've seen other long time unschoolers go through. I'm glad that your relationship with your son is getting better and I'm glad that he can relax a little because his mom is trying to relax a little.
There are other parents that started unschooling with older kids too, you aren't the only one. You could share that process if you'd like to for others with kids that have experienced many years of school before unschooling. You could share what you've come to know and understand about unschooling in the last couple of years. You could share the process that you've seen you and your child go through, you could share why he's decided to go back to school. You wrote that he went back for social reasons, but even that is an interesting idea to examine, going to school for social reasons, with the potential of examining why that was the choice and not something else, some other activity. It seems to me that you both barely got through the deschooling process before jumping right back in there. That is an idea worth looking at and examining.
You came into a long time existing message board that dissects ideas. So dissect away, examine away.
***My post was completely misunderstood.***
Sometimes it's not everyone else misunderstanding you, it could be that you might not be writing in a way that people are understanding what you mean. It could be that you are thinking one thing and writing another. That phrase, "say what you mean and mean what you say", comes to mind. It could also be, and this happens a LOT, that you are writing things that you aren't meaning to write because they are deeply in bedded in your thoughts. Other people can see them because they are used to it happening enough that they recognize some of those thought patterns.
It's not harsh or uncaring to point out where there is unclear thinking and writing. I'm grateful when others do it to me because it helps me think and write better and more clear! If you want to be understood, write more clearly, or take your own advice and ask questions for clarification.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Kim Zerbe
-=-Mostly, the main point I wanted to make is that when we follow our
instincts and intuition, we just can't go wrong.-=-
Yes we CAN go wrong! That is the sad thing.
<<<<<When I was a social worker, I heard these words from many parents who
had abused or neglected their children. I came to see the words, "Well,
that's how I was raised and I turned out okay..." as a huge red flag. It
seems to be the last rationalization for a bad (or at least less than
optimal) behavior by a parent.>>>>>
I have to agree. This struck a chord with me. For 7 years, since I became a
mother, I have been fighting my "natural instincts" on how to treat my child
because I believe in my heart that they are WRONG! When my son was very
young and acting out, my natural instinct was to yell at him and if he
continued, maybe to hit him or at least be rough with him. Anger came so
easily to the surface for me. That's what I was taught by example. The one
who yells the loudest gets their point across! No? The one who pushes
someone into a corner is the winner, right? And when the loser cries, then
you get to make fun of them for being weak. Wait, that's not how all parents
treat their kids?
No kidding! It shouldn't be! But when you grow up this way, it's really hard
to know what is the best way to treat kids. Even if your heart says don't
hit your kids, when that kid is really pushing your buttons and you are on
the edge of blowing up, and all you have in your toolbox is Yell, Push, Hit,
Be the Boss, what do you do??
I read a TON, looking for answers, help, new ideas, anything. I needed new
tools no one in my family had used on me! I was desperate! I had vowed to
myself that I would NOT hit my child. Now I can walk away, count, take deep
breaths. I am a lot calmer than I was 5 years ago and even 10 years ago.
Sometimes I just say one word. "Towel" might mean "please pick up your wet
towel and hang it in the bathroom." (I can also say the latter, instead of
yelling and swearing!)
I read something on Sandra's site about choices (first choosing the lesser
of 2 evils and eventually replacing the evils with kinder things) and when I
had the urge to become violent, I would yell (mentally forcing my arm to
stay still!). Then after a while instead of yelling I could take a deep
breath. And with that breath I have the chance to look at my son and think
he doesn't deserve to be hit OR yelled at. He is so lucky he can grow up
differently. I hope that he doesn't remember all the yelling so much as all
the hugging and listening. I am a much better listener now, which I think is
why there are less occasions to feel the urge to yell or hit!
I hope this might help someone who is where I used to be. "Natural
instincts" can be so the opposite of what you WANT to do, but those are the
ones that come to the surface when you're already tired, hungry, stressed
out, unhappy, injured, sick, or all of the above!
Kim
(mom of Damon, age 7, who is still young but growing up fast)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
instincts and intuition, we just can't go wrong.-=-
Yes we CAN go wrong! That is the sad thing.
<<<<<When I was a social worker, I heard these words from many parents who
had abused or neglected their children. I came to see the words, "Well,
that's how I was raised and I turned out okay..." as a huge red flag. It
seems to be the last rationalization for a bad (or at least less than
optimal) behavior by a parent.>>>>>
I have to agree. This struck a chord with me. For 7 years, since I became a
mother, I have been fighting my "natural instincts" on how to treat my child
because I believe in my heart that they are WRONG! When my son was very
young and acting out, my natural instinct was to yell at him and if he
continued, maybe to hit him or at least be rough with him. Anger came so
easily to the surface for me. That's what I was taught by example. The one
who yells the loudest gets their point across! No? The one who pushes
someone into a corner is the winner, right? And when the loser cries, then
you get to make fun of them for being weak. Wait, that's not how all parents
treat their kids?
No kidding! It shouldn't be! But when you grow up this way, it's really hard
to know what is the best way to treat kids. Even if your heart says don't
hit your kids, when that kid is really pushing your buttons and you are on
the edge of blowing up, and all you have in your toolbox is Yell, Push, Hit,
Be the Boss, what do you do??
I read a TON, looking for answers, help, new ideas, anything. I needed new
tools no one in my family had used on me! I was desperate! I had vowed to
myself that I would NOT hit my child. Now I can walk away, count, take deep
breaths. I am a lot calmer than I was 5 years ago and even 10 years ago.
Sometimes I just say one word. "Towel" might mean "please pick up your wet
towel and hang it in the bathroom." (I can also say the latter, instead of
yelling and swearing!)
I read something on Sandra's site about choices (first choosing the lesser
of 2 evils and eventually replacing the evils with kinder things) and when I
had the urge to become violent, I would yell (mentally forcing my arm to
stay still!). Then after a while instead of yelling I could take a deep
breath. And with that breath I have the chance to look at my son and think
he doesn't deserve to be hit OR yelled at. He is so lucky he can grow up
differently. I hope that he doesn't remember all the yelling so much as all
the hugging and listening. I am a much better listener now, which I think is
why there are less occasions to feel the urge to yell or hit!
I hope this might help someone who is where I used to be. "Natural
instincts" can be so the opposite of what you WANT to do, but those are the
ones that come to the surface when you're already tired, hungry, stressed
out, unhappy, injured, sick, or all of the above!
Kim
(mom of Damon, age 7, who is still young but growing up fast)
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
> Mostly, the main point I wanted to make is that when we follow ourIt struck me that this is the insight someone reached after 9 years of
> instincts and intuition, we just can't go wrong
struggling with a problem. And they wanted to pass on the wisdom so
someone else doesn't need to struggle for 9 years.
But the meaning came from the struggle. That meaning *isn't* in the
conclusion. The struggle removed the baggage that made the message
clear. But the message is meaningless to people who still have baggage.
What this list hopes to do is help people understand how to avoid the
choices that keep them clinging to the baggage and turning away from
unschooling, and help them understand how to make choices that help
them drop the baggage and move toward unschooling.
There isn't a short cut to dropping the baggage that gets between
people's thinking and good clear unschooling choices. But there sure
are a lot of ways to not drop the baggage! It really needs to be
tackled one bag at a time. It's pure luck when people get to drop a
bunch of bags with an "Aha!" moment :-) But "Aha!"s come from a bunch
of helps that resonates with someone's unique collection of knowledge
and understanding. The helps can't be packaged to do it for everyone.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 17, 2011, at 2:13 AM, fbyrem wrote:
it's clear that you don't want others to dissect your ideas without
your permission.
But this list *promises* to members to dissect any and all ideas that
are presented as unschooling ideas, AND because most people don't
expect that from lists (which they tend to assume are social gathering
places for sharing with others) there are lots of warnings before
people post.
I'm sorry you joined the list so long ago that you missed those
warnings. I'm sorry you didn't read to get a feel for the place before
posting. (That's a good idea for *any* list.) I'm sorry you made
assumptions about what the list was about. I'm sorry that most people
don't realize that all lists aren't social "here's what works for me"
sharing kinds of lists.
who was interested in reading and to the ideas thrown on the list for
examination.
what it promises members it will do! If someone assumes the place is
something different -- when there are lots of warnings about what kind
of place it is -- it's not the place's fault, it's the person's
assumptions.
What is a good assumption for this list because of the type of list it
is, is that people are writing what they mean. It's polite to be as
clear as possible the first time so responders' time isn't wasted on a
problem a person doesn't have. It's polite to realize that members can
only respond to words posted not to what someone really means and if
the responses are unexpected then the post (or their understanding of
the list!) wasn't clear.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I have no problem having my ideas dissected.Maybe you mean you don't mind dissecting your own ideas.
> I do have a problem, however, with being scraped over the coalsBut since your ideas were dissected but you felt *you* were dissected,
it's clear that you don't want others to dissect your ideas without
your permission.
But this list *promises* to members to dissect any and all ideas that
are presented as unschooling ideas, AND because most people don't
expect that from lists (which they tend to assume are social gathering
places for sharing with others) there are lots of warnings before
people post.
I'm sorry you joined the list so long ago that you missed those
warnings. I'm sorry you didn't read to get a feel for the place before
posting. (That's a good idea for *any* list.) I'm sorry you made
assumptions about what the list was about. I'm sorry that most people
don't realize that all lists aren't social "here's what works for me"
sharing kinds of lists.
> There were several responses to my original post, that made meYour wondering was right. They weren't addressed to you but to anyone
> wonder if you were talking to me
who was interested in reading and to the ideas thrown on the list for
examination.
> If you're going to throw a hatchet at someone, get your factsIt helps to get to know a place before using it. The place is doing
> straight first.
what it promises members it will do! If someone assumes the place is
something different -- when there are lots of warnings about what kind
of place it is -- it's not the place's fault, it's the person's
assumptions.
What is a good assumption for this list because of the type of list it
is, is that people are writing what they mean. It's polite to be as
clear as possible the first time so responders' time isn't wasted on a
problem a person doesn't have. It's polite to realize that members can
only respond to words posted not to what someone really means and if
the responses are unexpected then the post (or their understanding of
the list!) wasn't clear.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fbyrem
When a person yells at, or hits, their child, they are not following their natural born maternal instincts or intuitive nature. Those precious gems have been obliterated by social conditioning, cultural environment, and fear.
I should have clarified that when I refer to 'instinct', I'm not talking about animal instinct, but maternal instinct.
Every parent I've known 'loses it' at some time in their parenting, but it's not from being intuitive. It's the opposite of intuitiveness.
But there is a moment of choice to listen to the heart. Count to ten, take a walk, whatever....to gain one's composure enough to be able to reconnect to one's own heart, and reconnect with the god-given maternal instincts. No mother alive (except in extreme cases) who truly takes the time to reconnect would ever treat their child in such unskillful ways.
The vast majority of parents love their children and want no harm to come to them, especially from their own hands and mouths.
Going through my turbulent times, the struggles I went through, was because I love my child. I learned to listen to my heart instead of trying to figure out which 'methods' to use. For instance, 'time-outs' were once (not long ago, either) considered the most popular choice in disciplining children, but now (thankfully) is being accepted as a way of punishment instead of discipline. I don't even like the word 'discipline' because to me, it sounds like 'punishment' wrapped up in a ribbon.
I was raised in the south, and whoppins' were the norm. We were often required to find our own switch from a tree limb to be switched with, and if it wasn't the right size, we had to go get another one, which would inflict the most pain.
Even as a child, I swore I would never treat my children that way. I'm sorry to say that (with 3 children....two are grown) I can count the number of spankings on both my hands, and occasionally yelled. That many spankings (10) would be considered few by many, but for me, it was way too much.
The best advice I ever got, was to excuse myself from the situation for the time being, saying something like 'I'd rather talk about this later, in a few minutes, when we both can be more reasonable, is that okay with you'? It rarely failed, and gave me opportunity to reflect on what it is I really want to happen here.
I should have clarified that when I refer to 'instinct', I'm not talking about animal instinct, but maternal instinct.
Every parent I've known 'loses it' at some time in their parenting, but it's not from being intuitive. It's the opposite of intuitiveness.
But there is a moment of choice to listen to the heart. Count to ten, take a walk, whatever....to gain one's composure enough to be able to reconnect to one's own heart, and reconnect with the god-given maternal instincts. No mother alive (except in extreme cases) who truly takes the time to reconnect would ever treat their child in such unskillful ways.
The vast majority of parents love their children and want no harm to come to them, especially from their own hands and mouths.
Going through my turbulent times, the struggles I went through, was because I love my child. I learned to listen to my heart instead of trying to figure out which 'methods' to use. For instance, 'time-outs' were once (not long ago, either) considered the most popular choice in disciplining children, but now (thankfully) is being accepted as a way of punishment instead of discipline. I don't even like the word 'discipline' because to me, it sounds like 'punishment' wrapped up in a ribbon.
I was raised in the south, and whoppins' were the norm. We were often required to find our own switch from a tree limb to be switched with, and if it wasn't the right size, we had to go get another one, which would inflict the most pain.
Even as a child, I swore I would never treat my children that way. I'm sorry to say that (with 3 children....two are grown) I can count the number of spankings on both my hands, and occasionally yelled. That many spankings (10) would be considered few by many, but for me, it was way too much.
The best advice I ever got, was to excuse myself from the situation for the time being, saying something like 'I'd rather talk about this later, in a few minutes, when we both can be more reasonable, is that okay with you'? It rarely failed, and gave me opportunity to reflect on what it is I really want to happen here.
--- In [email protected], "Kim Zerbe" <kim.zerbe@...> wrote:
>
> -=-Mostly, the main point I wanted to make is that when we follow our
> instincts and intuition, we just can't go wrong.-=-
>
>
>
> Yes we CAN go wrong! That is the sad thing.
>
>
>
> <<<<<When I was a social worker, I heard these words from many parents who
> had abused or neglected their children. I came to see the words, "Well,
> that's how I was raised and I turned out okay..." as a huge red flag. It
> seems to be the last rationalization for a bad (or at least less than
> optimal) behavior by a parent.>>>>>
>
>
>
> I have to agree. This struck a chord with me. For 7 years, since I became a
> mother, I have been fighting my "natural instincts" on how to treat my child
> because I believe in my heart that they are WRONG! When my son was very
> young and acting out, my natural instinct was to yell at him and if he
> continued, maybe to hit him or at least be rough with him. Anger came so
> easily to the surface for me. That's what I was taught by example. The one
> who yells the loudest gets their point across! No? The one who pushes
> someone into a corner is the winner, right? And when the loser cries, then
> you get to make fun of them for being weak. Wait, that's not how all parents
> treat their kids?
>
>
>
> No kidding! It shouldn't be! But when you grow up this way, it's really hard
> to know what is the best way to treat kids. Even if your heart says don't
> hit your kids, when that kid is really pushing your buttons and you are on
> the edge of blowing up, and all you have in your toolbox is Yell, Push, Hit,
> Be the Boss, what do you do??
>
>
>
> I read a TON, looking for answers, help, new ideas, anything. I needed new
> tools no one in my family had used on me! I was desperate! I had vowed to
> myself that I would NOT hit my child. Now I can walk away, count, take deep
> breaths. I am a lot calmer than I was 5 years ago and even 10 years ago.
> Sometimes I just say one word. "Towel" might mean "please pick up your wet
> towel and hang it in the bathroom." (I can also say the latter, instead of
> yelling and swearing!)
>
>
>
> I read something on Sandra's site about choices (first choosing the lesser
> of 2 evils and eventually replacing the evils with kinder things) and when I
> had the urge to become violent, I would yell (mentally forcing my arm to
> stay still!). Then after a while instead of yelling I could take a deep
> breath. And with that breath I have the chance to look at my son and think
> he doesn't deserve to be hit OR yelled at. He is so lucky he can grow up
> differently. I hope that he doesn't remember all the yelling so much as all
> the hugging and listening. I am a much better listener now, which I think is
> why there are less occasions to feel the urge to yell or hit!
>
>
>
> I hope this might help someone who is where I used to be. "Natural
> instincts" can be so the opposite of what you WANT to do, but those are the
> ones that come to the surface when you're already tired, hungry, stressed
> out, unhappy, injured, sick, or all of the above!
>
>
>
> Kim
>
> (mom of Damon, age 7, who is still young but growing up fast)
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Sep 17, 2011, at 8:45 AM, fbyrem wrote:
understanding you've come to.
It's good to keep shining a light on where people are steering
towards. It's what we do with unschooling.
But what helps them get there isn't the light on something they don't
fully grasp. It's helping them *understand how to figure out for
themselves* how to get past the obstacles. It's helping them
*understand how to figure out for themselves* what's a route that
heads toward and what's a route that heads away.
(And I've written in the past that it's helping them make better
choices. But it's really helping them figure out what are better
choice and what are worse choices. *That's* why it takes so much
writing. We can't hand people the answers. We can show what has worked
for others. But for them to do it themselves, they need to figure out
what choices that move toward and away are made of so that they can
figure it out when faced with their own choices.)
I understand what you're saying, that listening to your heart is key.
But for many people who have baggage, shining a light on that will
head them away from what they want to do.
No one can listen to what their heart is saying if they've got a lot
of baggage. Not even with taking time to pause and listen. That's a
good technique but until someone can realize the baggage that looks
like their heart isn't the heart that technique isn't going to help
them to make better unschooling choices. It's going to lead them to
supporting their baggage.
You went through a lot of struggles before you listened to your heart.
Don't discount those struggles! Don't discount that others need to
struggle too.
BUT what this list hopes is people will be able to work positively in
ways that keep them moving forward so it doesn't take them 9 years
before they figure out what "Listen to your heart" really means.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> But there is a moment of choice to listen to the heart.You're phrasing this as though your words will pass on the
understanding you've come to.
It's good to keep shining a light on where people are steering
towards. It's what we do with unschooling.
But what helps them get there isn't the light on something they don't
fully grasp. It's helping them *understand how to figure out for
themselves* how to get past the obstacles. It's helping them
*understand how to figure out for themselves* what's a route that
heads toward and what's a route that heads away.
(And I've written in the past that it's helping them make better
choices. But it's really helping them figure out what are better
choice and what are worse choices. *That's* why it takes so much
writing. We can't hand people the answers. We can show what has worked
for others. But for them to do it themselves, they need to figure out
what choices that move toward and away are made of so that they can
figure it out when faced with their own choices.)
I understand what you're saying, that listening to your heart is key.
But for many people who have baggage, shining a light on that will
head them away from what they want to do.
No one can listen to what their heart is saying if they've got a lot
of baggage. Not even with taking time to pause and listen. That's a
good technique but until someone can realize the baggage that looks
like their heart isn't the heart that technique isn't going to help
them to make better unschooling choices. It's going to lead them to
supporting their baggage.
You went through a lot of struggles before you listened to your heart.
Don't discount those struggles! Don't discount that others need to
struggle too.
BUT what this list hopes is people will be able to work positively in
ways that keep them moving forward so it doesn't take them 9 years
before they figure out what "Listen to your heart" really means.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Meredith
"fbyrem" <fbyrem@...> wrote:
No-one was talking to you - it's not about you. You wrote some words, and people are discussing those words from their own perspective.
A lot of people confuse unschooling with "intuitive parenting" and its a good thing to pull those ideas apart and see how they work together and how they don't. For some, unschooling seems very intuitive, but not for everyone - and very often people on discussion lists are the sort who Don't find unschooling "intuitive" but rather something they come to by thinking and analyzing and making choices.
---Meredith
>> There were several responses to my original post, that made me wonder if you were talking to me*************
No-one was talking to you - it's not about you. You wrote some words, and people are discussing those words from their own perspective.
A lot of people confuse unschooling with "intuitive parenting" and its a good thing to pull those ideas apart and see how they work together and how they don't. For some, unschooling seems very intuitive, but not for everyone - and very often people on discussion lists are the sort who Don't find unschooling "intuitive" but rather something they come to by thinking and analyzing and making choices.
---Meredith
Pam Sorooshian
On 9/17/2011 5:45 AM, fbyrem wrote:
I think is what's bothering you and why you're feeling so
misunderstood is that people are objecting to telling people to follow
their instincts, trust their hearts, etc. It isn't useful to tell people
to follow their instincts or trust their hearts when they have had those
good maternal instincts (which would include generosity, kindness,
gentle support, thoughtfulness, etc) obliterated and often replaced with
some really awful voices in their heads telling them kids need to be
punished, they need to be told "no" a lot, they need to have chores and
bedtimes and controlled access to food.
So - the response you got was partly confusion (your posts are kind of
hard to follow - the wording is somewhat confusing) but largely it was
an honest response saying that it isn't really very helpful to tell
people to follow their instincts or trust their hearts - that advice can
lead people to trust their urge to spank and shame and discipline and
control. I think it is way better to suggest that people question their
"instincts" rather than trust them.
Your child was in school and, as cool as a democratic/free school is, it
is still a place a child goes away from his family and, as wonderful an
environment as the school may create, it doesn't give the family the
kind of freedom that unschooling does.
-pam
> When a person yells at, or hits, their child, they are not followingI doubt anybody here disagrees with the above statement.
> their natural born maternal instincts or intuitive nature. Those
> precious gems have been obliterated by social conditioning, cultural
> environment, and fear.
I think is what's bothering you and why you're feeling so
misunderstood is that people are objecting to telling people to follow
their instincts, trust their hearts, etc. It isn't useful to tell people
to follow their instincts or trust their hearts when they have had those
good maternal instincts (which would include generosity, kindness,
gentle support, thoughtfulness, etc) obliterated and often replaced with
some really awful voices in their heads telling them kids need to be
punished, they need to be told "no" a lot, they need to have chores and
bedtimes and controlled access to food.
So - the response you got was partly confusion (your posts are kind of
hard to follow - the wording is somewhat confusing) but largely it was
an honest response saying that it isn't really very helpful to tell
people to follow their instincts or trust their hearts - that advice can
lead people to trust their urge to spank and shame and discipline and
control. I think it is way better to suggest that people question their
"instincts" rather than trust them.
Your child was in school and, as cool as a democratic/free school is, it
is still a place a child goes away from his family and, as wonderful an
environment as the school may create, it doesn't give the family the
kind of freedom that unschooling does.
-pam
Meredith
"fbyrem" <fbyrem@...> wrote:
You're expecting everyone to experience "maternal instinct" according to your definition, but for many people "maternal instinct" looks and feels just like "animal instinct". It looks like mom gets her way because she's bigger and stronger and her maternal goals are to produce big, strong offspring who have a good chance of surviving to reproduce in a dangerous world.
There are animals which kill a percentage of their offspring so the others have a better chance of survival. Glamorizing "instinct" doesn't change that, or change the fact that some people come to motherhood with strong gut feelings in favor of actively trying to control their kids' behavior. Instinct and gut feelings aren't good guides for everyone.
Stark rationality isn't a good guide for everyone either! You can rationalize just about anything, and people do. It's not a matter of either relying on emotional information or intellectual information - as humans we're blessed with the ability to use both. We're gifted with the ability to learn and make choices based on what we learn, to question what we learn and what we know in light of what we think and feel.
But at least as important as thinking or feeling is taking time to observe your children. Watch them and listen to them. See what brings them joy and contentment. That's where unschooling really starts, when you look outside yourself and focus on your kids - not your ideas about children or your feelings about your babies but really pay attention to your actual children and discover what is important to them.
---Meredith
>*******************
> When a person yells at, or hits, their child, they are not following their natural born maternal instincts or intuitive nature. Those precious gems have been obliterated by social conditioning, cultural environment, and fear.
>
> I should have clarified that when I refer to 'instinct', I'm not talking about animal instinct, but maternal instinct.
You're expecting everyone to experience "maternal instinct" according to your definition, but for many people "maternal instinct" looks and feels just like "animal instinct". It looks like mom gets her way because she's bigger and stronger and her maternal goals are to produce big, strong offspring who have a good chance of surviving to reproduce in a dangerous world.
There are animals which kill a percentage of their offspring so the others have a better chance of survival. Glamorizing "instinct" doesn't change that, or change the fact that some people come to motherhood with strong gut feelings in favor of actively trying to control their kids' behavior. Instinct and gut feelings aren't good guides for everyone.
Stark rationality isn't a good guide for everyone either! You can rationalize just about anything, and people do. It's not a matter of either relying on emotional information or intellectual information - as humans we're blessed with the ability to use both. We're gifted with the ability to learn and make choices based on what we learn, to question what we learn and what we know in light of what we think and feel.
But at least as important as thinking or feeling is taking time to observe your children. Watch them and listen to them. See what brings them joy and contentment. That's where unschooling really starts, when you look outside yourself and focus on your kids - not your ideas about children or your feelings about your babies but really pay attention to your actual children and discover what is important to them.
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-I should have clarified that when I refer to 'instinct', I'm not talking about animal instinct, but maternal instinct.-=-
Maternal instinct exists in all animals, but humans happen to have years of culture, religion and science slapped over their biological, mammalian instincts.
-=-When a person yells at, or hits, their child, they are not following their natural born maternal instincts or intuitive nature. Those precious gems have been obliterated by social conditioning, cultural environment, and fear.
-=-
If your own unschooling experience was successful, I would be more inclined to sit up and prepare to really think about what you think about how to parent, but you've explained that you expected a child to request instruction, and that you waited for that to happen, and gave up. Your understanding of the kinds of relationships it takes for unschooling to work well isn't proven. Your lack of understanding is indicated. That's not a crime, but coming here and explaining to us how it works with parents and children is questionable. If we had a microphone and you were on stage, I'd probably take it away from you at this point. Sorry. People have come here to learn more about unschooling from people who have made it work out.
-=-No mother alive (except in extreme cases) who truly takes the time to reconnect would ever treat their child in such unskillful ways. -=-
"Skill" has little to do with instinct, and you can't speak for all mothers alive. You can't even speak for all unschoolers, or all parents whose children are in that school you've recommended.
Sandra
owner of the list, owner of the microphone
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maternal instinct exists in all animals, but humans happen to have years of culture, religion and science slapped over their biological, mammalian instincts.
-=-When a person yells at, or hits, their child, they are not following their natural born maternal instincts or intuitive nature. Those precious gems have been obliterated by social conditioning, cultural environment, and fear.
-=-
If your own unschooling experience was successful, I would be more inclined to sit up and prepare to really think about what you think about how to parent, but you've explained that you expected a child to request instruction, and that you waited for that to happen, and gave up. Your understanding of the kinds of relationships it takes for unschooling to work well isn't proven. Your lack of understanding is indicated. That's not a crime, but coming here and explaining to us how it works with parents and children is questionable. If we had a microphone and you were on stage, I'd probably take it away from you at this point. Sorry. People have come here to learn more about unschooling from people who have made it work out.
-=-No mother alive (except in extreme cases) who truly takes the time to reconnect would ever treat their child in such unskillful ways. -=-
"Skill" has little to do with instinct, and you can't speak for all mothers alive. You can't even speak for all unschoolers, or all parents whose children are in that school you've recommended.
Sandra
owner of the list, owner of the microphone
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-what this list hopes is people will be able to work positively in
ways that keep them moving forward so it doesn't take them 9 years
before they figure out what "Listen to your heart" really means.-=-
And that listening to their hearts won't lead to school.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
ways that keep them moving forward so it doesn't take them 9 years
before they figure out what "Listen to your heart" really means.-=-
And that listening to their hearts won't lead to school.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]