Advice Needed About Son
The Pommies
Hi everyone.
I am a dad to a 9 year old boy who I believe has some issues that need help with. My wife has been unschooling our children for a couple of years and is very much committed to this way of life. I, on the otherhand, have taken on most of the philosophy but am still learning and struggling at times. Our main sticking point is the problems we have with our son, and as I am also seeking medical professional advice she suggested I post my worries on here as well. So here goes...
My son had speech problems from an early age and speech therapy is on going. He now suffers from extreme anger, hyperactivity, impulse control, listening and understanding, empathy, and generally behaves rudely and appears spoilt. Often he shouts, yells, and acts out saying 'you're not the boss of me' etc.
if I require something of him. Any discipline leads to intense power struggles and never seems to work so we removed traditional discipline techniques . He doesn't think of the consequences of his actions, is destructive with both his own stuff and others, and pushes other children away with his behaviour.
My wife has a great relationship with him most of the time but sometimes struggles too with patience, but he seems very angry with me almost all the time and is begining to get angry to my wife despite our best efforts.
Lately he has talked about how he wants to kill or hurt his siblings and me, has been purposely urinating in his room, breaking his own stuff (including a $1,000 tv), and generally being very verbally and physically aggressive. I want to take him to see a paediatrian about it to get outside help. I also currently have him on Ritalin,( something we were always dead against) but this is making no difference. My wife is very against all of this and feels it is us who need to change ourselves and his environment,which I agree with. But I am also so worried that he actually needs additional professional help( enabling both sides of the spectrum) and we are doing him a great disservice by not getting it for him.
I would appreciate any advice anyone is willing to take the time to give me, as I am feeling at a complete loss at present.
Mike.
I am a dad to a 9 year old boy who I believe has some issues that need help with. My wife has been unschooling our children for a couple of years and is very much committed to this way of life. I, on the otherhand, have taken on most of the philosophy but am still learning and struggling at times. Our main sticking point is the problems we have with our son, and as I am also seeking medical professional advice she suggested I post my worries on here as well. So here goes...
My son had speech problems from an early age and speech therapy is on going. He now suffers from extreme anger, hyperactivity, impulse control, listening and understanding, empathy, and generally behaves rudely and appears spoilt. Often he shouts, yells, and acts out saying 'you're not the boss of me' etc.
if I require something of him. Any discipline leads to intense power struggles and never seems to work so we removed traditional discipline techniques . He doesn't think of the consequences of his actions, is destructive with both his own stuff and others, and pushes other children away with his behaviour.
My wife has a great relationship with him most of the time but sometimes struggles too with patience, but he seems very angry with me almost all the time and is begining to get angry to my wife despite our best efforts.
Lately he has talked about how he wants to kill or hurt his siblings and me, has been purposely urinating in his room, breaking his own stuff (including a $1,000 tv), and generally being very verbally and physically aggressive. I want to take him to see a paediatrian about it to get outside help. I also currently have him on Ritalin,( something we were always dead against) but this is making no difference. My wife is very against all of this and feels it is us who need to change ourselves and his environment,which I agree with. But I am also so worried that he actually needs additional professional help( enabling both sides of the spectrum) and we are doing him a great disservice by not getting it for him.
I would appreciate any advice anyone is willing to take the time to give me, as I am feeling at a complete loss at present.
Mike.
Lena
Hi Mike,
Sorry your family is undergoing struggle and some hard times. I think a psychological evaluation would help tease out whether this is an emotional, environmental, or biological issue, and then give you guys some ideas on how to begin to help your son. Of course all psychologists are different, so you'd want to interview and speak with each to be sure that he/she understands your son, your family, and beliefs and lifestyles. I am not sure who is prescribing the ritalin (physician v. Child psychiatrist?), but it does not seem to be a good match with your son and may be exacerbating issues for him. You may want to consult with whomever is prescribing this and discuss taking him off of it until a psychological evaluation can be done.
I am a child mental health counselor, and when a child is destructive,impulsive, angry, and talks about hurting themselves or others, it is usually a good time to bring in some outside support so that you guys can function as a family better, and help your son feel less anger. Also, to be frank, you dont want him to accidentally or impulsively hurt himself or others in a moment of anger. That is just my opinion, i am sure others will have more.
Best wishes,
Lena
wSent from my iPad
Sorry your family is undergoing struggle and some hard times. I think a psychological evaluation would help tease out whether this is an emotional, environmental, or biological issue, and then give you guys some ideas on how to begin to help your son. Of course all psychologists are different, so you'd want to interview and speak with each to be sure that he/she understands your son, your family, and beliefs and lifestyles. I am not sure who is prescribing the ritalin (physician v. Child psychiatrist?), but it does not seem to be a good match with your son and may be exacerbating issues for him. You may want to consult with whomever is prescribing this and discuss taking him off of it until a psychological evaluation can be done.
I am a child mental health counselor, and when a child is destructive,impulsive, angry, and talks about hurting themselves or others, it is usually a good time to bring in some outside support so that you guys can function as a family better, and help your son feel less anger. Also, to be frank, you dont want him to accidentally or impulsively hurt himself or others in a moment of anger. That is just my opinion, i am sure others will have more.
Best wishes,
Lena
wSent from my iPad
On Aug 29, 2011, at 9:51 PM, "The Pommies" <thepommies@...> wrote:
> Hi everyone.
>
> I am a dad to a 9 year old boy who I believe has some issues that need help with. My wife has been unschooling our children for a couple of years and is very much committed to this way of life. I, on the otherhand, have taken on most of the philosophy but am still learning and struggling at times. Our main sticking point is the problems we have with our son, and as I am also seeking medical professional advice she suggested I post my worries on here as well. So here goes...
>
> My son had speech problems from an early age and speech therapy is on going. He now suffers from extreme anger, hyperactivity, impulse control, listening and understanding, empathy, and generally behaves rudely and appears spoilt. Often he shouts, yells, and acts out saying 'you're not the boss of me' etc.
> if I require something of him. Any discipline leads to intense power struggles and never seems to work so we removed traditional discipline techniques . He doesn't think of the consequences of his actions, is destructive with both his own stuff and others, and pushes other children away with his behaviour.
>
> My wife has a great relationship with him most of the time but sometimes struggles too with patience, but he seems very angry with me almost all the time and is begining to get angry to my wife despite our best efforts.
>
> Lately he has talked about how he wants to kill or hurt his siblings and me, has been purposely urinating in his room, breaking his own stuff (including a $1,000 tv), and generally being very verbally and physically aggressive. I want to take him to see a paediatrian about it to get outside help. I also currently have him on Ritalin,( something we were always dead against) but this is making no difference. My wife is very against all of this and feels it is us who need to change ourselves and his environment,which I agree with. But I am also so worried that he actually needs additional professional help( enabling both sides of the spectrum) and we are doing him a great disservice by not getting it for him.
>
> I would appreciate any advice anyone is willing to take the time to give me, as I am feeling at a complete loss at present.
>
> Mike.
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 30, 2011, at 12:51 AM, The Pommies wrote:
partner rather than his director or controller. Be the problem solver.
Be the manipulator of the environment rather than the enforcer of your
solution to the problem. Work with who he is and what he's capable of
rather than trying to change who he is.
He *will* change as he's developmentally able if he feels change will
help him meet his needs rather than meet your needs for him.
you and what you need to do, isn't that what you'd do? Isn't that what
every hero since the beginning of time has done?
The thing with kids is they don't have the experience to meet their
needs *and* take others' needs into account too. They will choose
solutions they understand which will tend to be direct, straight
through whatever and whoever is between them and what they want. The
thing with respectful, safe, non-destructive (and other principled)
solutions is that they tend to be more complex and harder to figure
out without experience.
What he needs isn't someone who focuses on his poor choice to teach
him how wrong he is to make that choice. (Treating him as though he
were making bad choices because he has some demon in him that needs
squashed.) He needs someone who focuses on the need he's trying to
meet, treats the need with respect, sees it as important to meet. But
also someone who can see the bigger picture, who can take more factors
into account to come up with respectful, safe, doable (but more
complex) routes to things that will meet his need.
Focusing on the need may involve "No! Wait! Stop!", maybe even
physically stopping him if he's about to destroy something. (Even
better, though, is adjusting the environment and anticipating his
needs. The less you need to stop him the better!) But move quickly
from focusing on his solution to focusing on his need. If you make
your goal him trusting that you want to meet his need, he will
eventually trust that stopping what he's doing is part of meeting his
need. (If your focus for the past 9 years has been on teaching him
how wrong his solution is, it will take longer for him to trust that
your stop means "Let me help" rather than "You're bad.")
If you can describe some of the incidents, experienced radical
unschoolers will be able to see an even bigger picture that takes even
more factors into account -- like the radical unschooling principles
of respecting the child, of being the child's partner -- and offer
some more complex solutions, less direct path solutions, that allows
you to meet the need *and* maintain the principles of radical
unschooling.
I'm not dismissing what you're saying about his rages. (Though the
less he has to rage about the better!) Other radical unschooling
families have faced similar situations with rages. Hopefully they'll
come along with some ideas :-) but in the meantime if you search for
"rage" in the archives, that will bring up some past discussions:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/messages
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Often he shouts, yells, and acts out saying 'you're not the boss ofThe simple solution is not to require anything of him. :-) Be his
> me' etc.
> if I require something of him.
partner rather than his director or controller. Be the problem solver.
Be the manipulator of the environment rather than the enforcer of your
solution to the problem. Work with who he is and what he's capable of
rather than trying to change who he is.
He *will* change as he's developmentally able if he feels change will
help him meet his needs rather than meet your needs for him.
> Any discipline leads to intense power strugglesIf you have an important need and someone deliberately stands between
you and what you need to do, isn't that what you'd do? Isn't that what
every hero since the beginning of time has done?
The thing with kids is they don't have the experience to meet their
needs *and* take others' needs into account too. They will choose
solutions they understand which will tend to be direct, straight
through whatever and whoever is between them and what they want. The
thing with respectful, safe, non-destructive (and other principled)
solutions is that they tend to be more complex and harder to figure
out without experience.
What he needs isn't someone who focuses on his poor choice to teach
him how wrong he is to make that choice. (Treating him as though he
were making bad choices because he has some demon in him that needs
squashed.) He needs someone who focuses on the need he's trying to
meet, treats the need with respect, sees it as important to meet. But
also someone who can see the bigger picture, who can take more factors
into account to come up with respectful, safe, doable (but more
complex) routes to things that will meet his need.
Focusing on the need may involve "No! Wait! Stop!", maybe even
physically stopping him if he's about to destroy something. (Even
better, though, is adjusting the environment and anticipating his
needs. The less you need to stop him the better!) But move quickly
from focusing on his solution to focusing on his need. If you make
your goal him trusting that you want to meet his need, he will
eventually trust that stopping what he's doing is part of meeting his
need. (If your focus for the past 9 years has been on teaching him
how wrong his solution is, it will take longer for him to trust that
your stop means "Let me help" rather than "You're bad.")
If you can describe some of the incidents, experienced radical
unschoolers will be able to see an even bigger picture that takes even
more factors into account -- like the radical unschooling principles
of respecting the child, of being the child's partner -- and offer
some more complex solutions, less direct path solutions, that allows
you to meet the need *and* maintain the principles of radical
unschooling.
I'm not dismissing what you're saying about his rages. (Though the
less he has to rage about the better!) Other radical unschooling
families have faced similar situations with rages. Hopefully they'll
come along with some ideas :-) but in the meantime if you search for
"rage" in the archives, that will bring up some past discussions:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlwaysLearning/messages
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-I would appreciate any advice anyone is willing to take the time to give me, as I am feeling at a complete loss at present. -=-
While you're trying to figure out what to do, one thing that might help is to think of the unschooling/homeschooling aspect as "would this be better if he were in school?"
Sometimes there comes a black-and-white vision that blames unschooling for everything. Mary Gold says, in such cases, "It's not the unschooling."
Then again, there might have been some rough getting-to-unschooling that needs to be overcome. If he says "You're not the boss of me," you could say "Then who is?" Calmly. A real question. And let him think about that, or respond. And talk to him about laws, and property, and responsibility (not all at once, and not like a lecture, but those are the aspects of life the two/three of you could examine and negotiate.
I couldn't understand this clearly:
-=-I am a dad to a 9 year old boy who I believe has some issues that need help with. My wife has been unschooling our children for a couple of years and is very much committed to this way of life. I, on the otherhand, have taken on most of the philosophy but am still learning and struggling at times. Our main sticking point is the problems we have with our son, and as I am also seeking medical professional advice she suggested I post my worries on here as well. So here goes...
-=-
You are also in counselling for your own issues? Or you are seeking advice for your son?
How's the speech therapy going? I know an online speech therapist who's an unschooler, though her daughter is very young. She might be able to help by Skype. I'm very impressed with her knowledge and demeanor; I've met her in person, and she did a session with Holly to help her understand and help a girls she was caring for last year.
My thoughts as I read the post were about genetics or traits much like one parent or the other. Sometimes there can be issues that are magnified by the child's behavior being like one of the parents in such a way that the similar parent or the other one over-reacts, as though fixing that child would erase the problem in the adult. I'm probably not explaining that well. (If it's not genetics, is it adoption? You said "I am a dad to a 9 year old boy," rather than "My son is 9 and...")
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
While you're trying to figure out what to do, one thing that might help is to think of the unschooling/homeschooling aspect as "would this be better if he were in school?"
Sometimes there comes a black-and-white vision that blames unschooling for everything. Mary Gold says, in such cases, "It's not the unschooling."
Then again, there might have been some rough getting-to-unschooling that needs to be overcome. If he says "You're not the boss of me," you could say "Then who is?" Calmly. A real question. And let him think about that, or respond. And talk to him about laws, and property, and responsibility (not all at once, and not like a lecture, but those are the aspects of life the two/three of you could examine and negotiate.
I couldn't understand this clearly:
-=-I am a dad to a 9 year old boy who I believe has some issues that need help with. My wife has been unschooling our children for a couple of years and is very much committed to this way of life. I, on the otherhand, have taken on most of the philosophy but am still learning and struggling at times. Our main sticking point is the problems we have with our son, and as I am also seeking medical professional advice she suggested I post my worries on here as well. So here goes...
-=-
You are also in counselling for your own issues? Or you are seeking advice for your son?
How's the speech therapy going? I know an online speech therapist who's an unschooler, though her daughter is very young. She might be able to help by Skype. I'm very impressed with her knowledge and demeanor; I've met her in person, and she did a session with Holly to help her understand and help a girls she was caring for last year.
My thoughts as I read the post were about genetics or traits much like one parent or the other. Sometimes there can be issues that are magnified by the child's behavior being like one of the parents in such a way that the similar parent or the other one over-reacts, as though fixing that child would erase the problem in the adult. I'm probably not explaining that well. (If it's not genetics, is it adoption? You said "I am a dad to a 9 year old boy," rather than "My son is 9 and...")
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-If you can describe some of the incidents, experienced radical
unschoolers will be able to see an even bigger picture that takes even
more factors into account -- like the radical unschooling principles
of respecting the child, of being the child's partner -- and offer
some more complex solutions, less direct path solutions, that allows
you to meet the need *and* maintain the principles of radical
unschooling.-=-
Yes, but don't start right at "here he how he broke the tv." Back up three or four moves and tell the long picture.
Once my mom said, in the manner of Johnny Carson's co-host/sidekick, "Heeere's JOHNNY!" and broke the TV picture tube with a hammer. I was already grown, but I was living with her that season. That's just not enough information for anyone to judge why she broke the TV.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
unschoolers will be able to see an even bigger picture that takes even
more factors into account -- like the radical unschooling principles
of respecting the child, of being the child's partner -- and offer
some more complex solutions, less direct path solutions, that allows
you to meet the need *and* maintain the principles of radical
unschooling.-=-
Yes, but don't start right at "here he how he broke the tv." Back up three or four moves and tell the long picture.
Once my mom said, in the manner of Johnny Carson's co-host/sidekick, "Heeere's JOHNNY!" and broke the TV picture tube with a hammer. I was already grown, but I was living with her that season. That's just not enough information for anyone to judge why she broke the TV.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
shirarocklin
Hi Mike, There is a book (I think it was recommended on this list) that
I just finished recently which is all about children who sound very
similar to your son. It's called The Explosive Child
<http://www.amazon.ca/Explosive-Child-Ross-W-Greene/dp/006077939X> . I
borrowed it from the local library. It gives a very nice perspective on
all of the 'problems' you described, which professionals can turn into
illnesses, but are actually just short delays in development, that
parents don't recognize. When parents expect more from their children,
based on what their child 'should' be able to act like or do, instead of
what their child is actually capable of, that causes the child a lot of
stress, anger, resentment, etc.
He writes about learning a method of problem-solving that allows your
child to be heard, to have their needs met, but also not to be violent
or destructive. He also writes about letting go of expectations,
temporarily or permanently. He also writes about why the traditional
advice doctors give out (stricter rules, charts, punishments, etc)
really don't work for what he calls 'explosive kids.' It sounded very
realistic and reasonable. And the author also talks about when it is
appropriate to seek outside professional help, and what that should look
like (ie. not just prescribing drugs). He talks about his own successes
as a professional helping treat patients like this.
The book isn't an unschooling book... the author's underlying
assumptions about expecting things from children and how to communicate
and such are not the same as the assumptions about relationships that
unschoolers might make. On the other hand, his method of
problem-solving almost exactly mirrors how I have been solving
disagreements here, so its fairly close to the principles I try to live
by while we unschool. And the author might know a good therapist for
your son, if that is what you decide.
I'd really suggest reading this, because in my own experiences with
doctors, they've acted very knowledgable while telling me things that
aren't true. I like to have my own opinions about treatments somewhat
formed before seeing them.
Shira
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
I just finished recently which is all about children who sound very
similar to your son. It's called The Explosive Child
<http://www.amazon.ca/Explosive-Child-Ross-W-Greene/dp/006077939X> . I
borrowed it from the local library. It gives a very nice perspective on
all of the 'problems' you described, which professionals can turn into
illnesses, but are actually just short delays in development, that
parents don't recognize. When parents expect more from their children,
based on what their child 'should' be able to act like or do, instead of
what their child is actually capable of, that causes the child a lot of
stress, anger, resentment, etc.
He writes about learning a method of problem-solving that allows your
child to be heard, to have their needs met, but also not to be violent
or destructive. He also writes about letting go of expectations,
temporarily or permanently. He also writes about why the traditional
advice doctors give out (stricter rules, charts, punishments, etc)
really don't work for what he calls 'explosive kids.' It sounded very
realistic and reasonable. And the author also talks about when it is
appropriate to seek outside professional help, and what that should look
like (ie. not just prescribing drugs). He talks about his own successes
as a professional helping treat patients like this.
The book isn't an unschooling book... the author's underlying
assumptions about expecting things from children and how to communicate
and such are not the same as the assumptions about relationships that
unschoolers might make. On the other hand, his method of
problem-solving almost exactly mirrors how I have been solving
disagreements here, so its fairly close to the principles I try to live
by while we unschool. And the author might know a good therapist for
your son, if that is what you decide.
I'd really suggest reading this, because in my own experiences with
doctors, they've acted very knowledgable while telling me things that
aren't true. I like to have my own opinions about treatments somewhat
formed before seeing them.
Shira
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
Ritalin ((Methylphenidate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylphenidate#Adverse_effects ) is a stimulant that is on par with amphetamines. One of the most highly experienced side effects of stimulants is an increase in blood pressure, psychotic episodes and rage, especially felt as the drug wears off between doses. It is called amphetamine psychosis and boys around nine are highly susceptible. Think of it in terms of speed, the street drug--what you're giving him isn't any different. Have you ever met a speed freak?
The following are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the research about Ritalin and children.
"Awareness of the potential for psychotic side effects from stimulant medications is important when prescribing for children."
http://ectweb.pbworks.com/f/psychotic-side-effects.pdf
"Psychotic and Manic-like Symptoms During Stimulant Treatment of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder"
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/163/7/1149
Your library should be able to pull the full-text of this article for you:
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/29/1/35
I'd suggest this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1567511295/102-1790987-4893702?v=glance
Please, consider that the drugs you're giving him are exasperating the problems, not helping.
Brie
The following are only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the research about Ritalin and children.
"Awareness of the potential for psychotic side effects from stimulant medications is important when prescribing for children."
http://ectweb.pbworks.com/f/psychotic-side-effects.pdf
"Psychotic and Manic-like Symptoms During Stimulant Treatment of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder"
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/163/7/1149
Your library should be able to pull the full-text of this article for you:
http://archpsyc.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/29/1/35
I'd suggest this book:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1567511295/102-1790987-4893702?v=glance
Please, consider that the drugs you're giving him are exasperating the problems, not helping.
Brie
Sandra Dodd
-=-And the author also talks about when it is
appropriate to seek outside professional help, and what that should look
like (ie. not just prescribing drugs). He talks about his own successes
as a professional helping treat patients like this.-=-
I think Shira's suggestion to read *The Explosive Child* is a good one.
An idea about a therapist is Michelle Barone
http://www.michellebarone.net/index.html
who specializes in attachment parenting and homeschooling families. She's quite knowledgeable about unschooling, and can work by phone or e-mail.
She might be able to help or advise you about what kind of local therapy would be good (and what kind not so good) if it seems advisable.
I think a random therapist's first move might be to "Normalize" everything and recommend school and special education. Not every one of them, maybe, but odds are high.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
appropriate to seek outside professional help, and what that should look
like (ie. not just prescribing drugs). He talks about his own successes
as a professional helping treat patients like this.-=-
I think Shira's suggestion to read *The Explosive Child* is a good one.
An idea about a therapist is Michelle Barone
http://www.michellebarone.net/index.html
who specializes in attachment parenting and homeschooling families. She's quite knowledgeable about unschooling, and can work by phone or e-mail.
She might be able to help or advise you about what kind of local therapy would be good (and what kind not so good) if it seems advisable.
I think a random therapist's first move might be to "Normalize" everything and recommend school and special education. Not every one of them, maybe, but odds are high.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
plaidpanties666
, "The Pommies" <thepommies@...> wrote:
What is he angry about? Try to answer that question (in your own mind if you don't want to answer it here) without being dismissive. So if he seems to be angry because he wants more attention, don't think "just wants attention" think of it as a real, pressing need and look for ways to meet that need.
Parents sometimes become dismissive when children are extremely energetic, or struggle with frustration, or disappointment or seem to need a lot of "control" (which may mean independence or may mean a sense of personal power) but those are real issues *and* there are ways to help your son depending on what his needs are. So its important to try to work out Why he's getting angry so you can figure out how to help.
He's desperate for some kind of help and is using everything he can think of to get it. If he's not angry with mom, look hard at what she's doing and do it, too. Do more and better of what's working!
It may be one of the reasons you've been resisting giving him what he needs is that he needs so much more than his siblings and you're thinking that's not fair. It's not fair that your son is now in such a state of collapse - not to him or anyone else in the family. "Fair" isn't the same as equal. It helped me, when my stepson was younger and needed sooooo much to step back and think of how much I would give, unquestioningly, if his needs were purely physical. It might help you to ask "how much more time/attention/support would I give if he were seriously injured?" Don't disregard his needs because they're psychological.
Assume he is doing his absolute best with the resources at his disposal. When he's falling apart, his resources are way too low.
By professional help do you mean drugs or some kind of therapy? The tricky thing about changing multiple things at once is that it's much harder to know what's working.
Regardless of what you decide, I'd recommend keeping a journal First where you keep track of what's going on when things are going well and when they're going badly - its important to do both! You want to know what works just as much as what doesn't! Under the circumstances, its a good idea to keep track of things like food, too just to be sure its not something simple like a food sensitivity! A journal may be enough to help you figure things out on your own - but if not, it will be helpful for a therapist or doctor, too!
---Meredith
> he seems very angry with me almost all the time and is begining to get angry to my wife despite our best efforts.***************
What is he angry about? Try to answer that question (in your own mind if you don't want to answer it here) without being dismissive. So if he seems to be angry because he wants more attention, don't think "just wants attention" think of it as a real, pressing need and look for ways to meet that need.
Parents sometimes become dismissive when children are extremely energetic, or struggle with frustration, or disappointment or seem to need a lot of "control" (which may mean independence or may mean a sense of personal power) but those are real issues *and* there are ways to help your son depending on what his needs are. So its important to try to work out Why he's getting angry so you can figure out how to help.
> Lately he has talked about how he wants to kill or hurt his siblings and me, has been purposely urinating in his room, breaking his own stuff (including a $1,000 tv), and generally being very verbally and physically aggressive.*****************
He's desperate for some kind of help and is using everything he can think of to get it. If he's not angry with mom, look hard at what she's doing and do it, too. Do more and better of what's working!
It may be one of the reasons you've been resisting giving him what he needs is that he needs so much more than his siblings and you're thinking that's not fair. It's not fair that your son is now in such a state of collapse - not to him or anyone else in the family. "Fair" isn't the same as equal. It helped me, when my stepson was younger and needed sooooo much to step back and think of how much I would give, unquestioningly, if his needs were purely physical. It might help you to ask "how much more time/attention/support would I give if he were seriously injured?" Don't disregard his needs because they're psychological.
Assume he is doing his absolute best with the resources at his disposal. When he's falling apart, his resources are way too low.
>I am also so worried that he actually needs additional professional help( enabling both sides of the spectrum) and we are doing him a great disservice by not getting it for him.*****************
By professional help do you mean drugs or some kind of therapy? The tricky thing about changing multiple things at once is that it's much harder to know what's working.
Regardless of what you decide, I'd recommend keeping a journal First where you keep track of what's going on when things are going well and when they're going badly - its important to do both! You want to know what works just as much as what doesn't! Under the circumstances, its a good idea to keep track of things like food, too just to be sure its not something simple like a food sensitivity! A journal may be enough to help you figure things out on your own - but if not, it will be helpful for a therapist or doctor, too!
---Meredith
plaidpanties666
"The Pommies" <thepommies@...> wrote:
I had another thought about this, which is that kids who are hard of hearing sometimes have a lot of anger at their families. I don't know if this boy is hard of hearing or not, but it could be he's angry for essentially the same reason which is that he feels like He's the one who has to do all the work to communicate, that no-one is trying to speak to him in a language that works for him.
If he's having trouble communicating, its important for parents to work harder at understanding - listening, reading non-verbal cues, looking, and thinking about what he's trying to express.
---Meredith
>> My son had speech problems from an early age and speech therapy is on going.******************
I had another thought about this, which is that kids who are hard of hearing sometimes have a lot of anger at their families. I don't know if this boy is hard of hearing or not, but it could be he's angry for essentially the same reason which is that he feels like He's the one who has to do all the work to communicate, that no-one is trying to speak to him in a language that works for him.
If he's having trouble communicating, its important for parents to work harder at understanding - listening, reading non-verbal cues, looking, and thinking about what he's trying to express.
---Meredith
Bob Collier
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
My son, now 16 and recently started at vocational college, was out of school for eight years and eight months during which time I was his at-home parent. Setting aside my mental template of how fathers and sons are supposed to behave with each other (the kind of things you see on TV around Father's Day, for example) and allowing my son to reveal himself to me, for want of a better way of describing it, has been awesome. He's nothing like I was at 16, he's not much like I am now, and I couldn't be happier. And the fact is, he's not like teenage boys who have gone through the school experience - especially the high school experience. It's kind of spooky, and it's even more wonderful. But it does take an attitude of attentiveness without imposition. Observation without comment a lot of the time.
By the way, if you're "The Pommies", are you a British ex-pat living in Australia? I'm from London originally and live in Canberra (I became an Australian citizen in 2004).
Bob
>Mike, you're in a father-son relationship in unconventional circumstances. It might be useful to explore what you believe about father-son relationships and how that affects your expectations.
>
> On Aug 30, 2011, at 12:51 AM, The Pommies wrote:
>
> > Often he shouts, yells, and acts out saying 'you're not the boss of
> > me' etc.
> > if I require something of him.
>
> The simple solution is not to require anything of him. :-)
My son, now 16 and recently started at vocational college, was out of school for eight years and eight months during which time I was his at-home parent. Setting aside my mental template of how fathers and sons are supposed to behave with each other (the kind of things you see on TV around Father's Day, for example) and allowing my son to reveal himself to me, for want of a better way of describing it, has been awesome. He's nothing like I was at 16, he's not much like I am now, and I couldn't be happier. And the fact is, he's not like teenage boys who have gone through the school experience - especially the high school experience. It's kind of spooky, and it's even more wonderful. But it does take an attitude of attentiveness without imposition. Observation without comment a lot of the time.
By the way, if you're "The Pommies", are you a British ex-pat living in Australia? I'm from London originally and live in Canberra (I became an Australian citizen in 2004).
Bob
The Pommies
I just wrote a big long response and then it seemed to disappear into the ether!!
Just to clarify our situation, as from all your questions, I think I wasn't totally clear. My son was diagnosed with ADHD, ODD, and CAPD a couple of years ago after struggling in school. My wife (who did a lot of research, and followed her instincts) felt then and now that this was nonense and that he has no 'special needs' (she hates that term in fact). She wanted to unschool and I went along with it but had doubts. Over the last couple of years though I have seen the huge benefits for all four of our children and I now believe in the philosophy completely on the educational side, and on the parenting side for my other children. However, I am still struggling on the parenting side with my son because I feel he is 'high need' 'explosive' or whatever label you want to throw at him. I am torn between whether he needs a firmer hand or a gentler approach, and in practice the latter is difficult. I guess I find him more challenging than my other children, and when I look at other 9 year old boys he seems harder to manage than them.
Although his hearing is now fine, his speech is ok, he doesn't have a great vocabulary and he isn't a very good communicator so that definately is an issue. He seems very young for his age and therefore struggles within his peer group. His biggest problem with friendships is he doesn't seem to be aware when he is being too rough with others - friends, sisters, and us. He gets excited and wants to wrestle, which we do with him too, but he doesn't seem to get that he is hurting others and when we point it out he screams and yells that he doesn't care and that we ruin his fun. He wants us to not stop him so he can carry on wrestling, despite the fact that the other person is hurting.
When Joyce said to try and meet his need rather than highlight his 'bad' choice that resonated with me. We do try and look behind his behaviour but will often point out that we understand but the choice wasn't a good one and a better one could have been xxx. For example, he was given some headphones recently. His sister has been using them in the back of the car when we go out to listen to her ipod. Yesterday he destroyed them and she was very upset. They had a yelling match, and when I stepped in calmly he said he didn't care that he upset her because he wanted to because she was 'evil'. Later my wife spoke to him and he said he did it because he didn't want her listening to the ipod instead of talking to him. These are the sorts of things that are occuring in our house on a daily basis. A lot of rage directed at myself, and his sisters. Very rarely his mother.
In a situation like this, I would like to know how I can let him know that his behaviour was hurtful to his sister - it wasn't a good choice - without exacerbating his anger? I feel I owe it to his sister to step in and say something.
I know that he feels controlled and limited by me (although in conventional terms he has a huge amount of freedom). Mainly this is to do with my need to have a clean and ordered house. I 'ask' him not to spray water in the bathroom, not leave food in his room, not take drinks in the lounge, for example and he gets very angry. He says, 'you care so much about cleaning - more than you do me', 'you are obsessed with the house' etc. I have started to back off from saying these things and turning a blind eye to messes he is creating, but it is so hard for me as I am quite houseproud. My wife finds it easier to do as she is less so, and she is better at keeping her patience with him, which is why i think they have a better connection. I also think that they are very alike so she finds it a lot easier to empathise with how he is feeling, whereas I am more like my eldest daughter so I am able to empathise more with her about how she feels about her brothers behaviour.
We are both home all the time as we both work part-time from home and have done since we removed them from school, so we parent together.
Thanks everyone who has responded so far, and I hope that helps to clarify our situation better.
Mike.
Just to clarify our situation, as from all your questions, I think I wasn't totally clear. My son was diagnosed with ADHD, ODD, and CAPD a couple of years ago after struggling in school. My wife (who did a lot of research, and followed her instincts) felt then and now that this was nonense and that he has no 'special needs' (she hates that term in fact). She wanted to unschool and I went along with it but had doubts. Over the last couple of years though I have seen the huge benefits for all four of our children and I now believe in the philosophy completely on the educational side, and on the parenting side for my other children. However, I am still struggling on the parenting side with my son because I feel he is 'high need' 'explosive' or whatever label you want to throw at him. I am torn between whether he needs a firmer hand or a gentler approach, and in practice the latter is difficult. I guess I find him more challenging than my other children, and when I look at other 9 year old boys he seems harder to manage than them.
Although his hearing is now fine, his speech is ok, he doesn't have a great vocabulary and he isn't a very good communicator so that definately is an issue. He seems very young for his age and therefore struggles within his peer group. His biggest problem with friendships is he doesn't seem to be aware when he is being too rough with others - friends, sisters, and us. He gets excited and wants to wrestle, which we do with him too, but he doesn't seem to get that he is hurting others and when we point it out he screams and yells that he doesn't care and that we ruin his fun. He wants us to not stop him so he can carry on wrestling, despite the fact that the other person is hurting.
When Joyce said to try and meet his need rather than highlight his 'bad' choice that resonated with me. We do try and look behind his behaviour but will often point out that we understand but the choice wasn't a good one and a better one could have been xxx. For example, he was given some headphones recently. His sister has been using them in the back of the car when we go out to listen to her ipod. Yesterday he destroyed them and she was very upset. They had a yelling match, and when I stepped in calmly he said he didn't care that he upset her because he wanted to because she was 'evil'. Later my wife spoke to him and he said he did it because he didn't want her listening to the ipod instead of talking to him. These are the sorts of things that are occuring in our house on a daily basis. A lot of rage directed at myself, and his sisters. Very rarely his mother.
In a situation like this, I would like to know how I can let him know that his behaviour was hurtful to his sister - it wasn't a good choice - without exacerbating his anger? I feel I owe it to his sister to step in and say something.
I know that he feels controlled and limited by me (although in conventional terms he has a huge amount of freedom). Mainly this is to do with my need to have a clean and ordered house. I 'ask' him not to spray water in the bathroom, not leave food in his room, not take drinks in the lounge, for example and he gets very angry. He says, 'you care so much about cleaning - more than you do me', 'you are obsessed with the house' etc. I have started to back off from saying these things and turning a blind eye to messes he is creating, but it is so hard for me as I am quite houseproud. My wife finds it easier to do as she is less so, and she is better at keeping her patience with him, which is why i think they have a better connection. I also think that they are very alike so she finds it a lot easier to empathise with how he is feeling, whereas I am more like my eldest daughter so I am able to empathise more with her about how she feels about her brothers behaviour.
We are both home all the time as we both work part-time from home and have done since we removed them from school, so we parent together.
Thanks everyone who has responded so far, and I hope that helps to clarify our situation better.
Mike.
--- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@...> wrote:
>
> "The Pommies" <thepommies@> wrote:
> >> My son had speech problems from an early age and speech therapy is on going.
> ******************
>
> I had another thought about this, which is that kids who are hard of hearing sometimes have a lot of anger at their families. I don't know if this boy is hard of hearing or not, but it could be he's angry for essentially the same reason which is that he feels like He's the one who has to do all the work to communicate, that no-one is trying to speak to him in a language that works for him.
>
> If he's having trouble communicating, its important for parents to work harder at understanding - listening, reading non-verbal cues, looking, and thinking about what he's trying to express.
>
> ---Meredith
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-Although his hearing is now fine, his speech is ok, he doesn't have a great vocabulary and he isn't a very good communicator so that definately is an issue. He seems very young for his age -=-
Perhaps he was a preemie. (I mean you would know, but that can happen with preemies.)
Liam McClure was a preemie and some of his development is discussed here. He was kept very very happy, until he was fourteen or fifteen, for sure (and not so bad afterwards). He's home following tour in Afghanistan as a US Marine, but years ago his mom wrote this about him:
http://sandradodd.com/r/carol
Slow to speech might be slow to thought, and if you seem to be expecting him to "act his age," that could contribute. If he seems young, treat him gently and patiently, as though he were young, without comparing him, without "sending him the bill" for your kindnesses.
-=-... struggles within his peer group. -=-
But...
If he's young for his age, and doesn't have good language, then his "peer group" should be younger, less verbal people. Is he often being put with kids his age? That might be part of the problem.
-=- He gets excited and wants to wrestle, which we do with him too, but he doesn't seem to get that he is hurting others and when we point it out he screams and yells that he doesn't care and that we ruin his fun. He wants us to not stop him so he can carry on wrestling, despite the fact that the other person is hurting. -=-
Have you considered martial arts or other things that can provide large muscle activity without at team-sports overlay? Boxing? Gymnastics? Some rough kids benefit from having a martial arts teacher who helps him see that he has a reponsibility to use power for good, and not to hurt people.
-=- We do try and look behind his behaviour but will often point out that we understand but the choice wasn't a good one and a better one could have been xxx.-=-
Instead of saying "You were wrong, and here was the right answer" (if you did, even in the least), maybe ask him why he did what he did.
Did his sister use his headphones without asking?
Did he ask her to give them back?
-=-I would like to know how I can let him know that his behaviour was hurtful to his sister - it wasn't a good choice - without exacerbating his anger? -=-
Don't you think he knows already?
-=-I feel I owe it to his sister to step in and say something. -=-
You don't "owe it" to her to make him more unhappy than he already is. It's not helping her for you to do that, and it's not putting them on the same team in any way. It's you taking her side against him. And maybe that's been going on for a long time.
-=-Mainly this is to do with my need to have a clean and ordered house-=-
HOW clean and how ordered? You have children. You can't live in a hotel unless you can afford a fulltime maid.
-=-He says, 'you care so much about cleaning - more than you do me', 'you are obsessed with the house' etc. I have started to back off from saying these things and turning a blind eye to messes he is creating, but it is so hard for me as I am quite houseproud.-=-
Did you not know, though, before you had children that they are messy?
Didn't you think, when you decided to homeschool, that they would be home all the time? Schools are pretty messy places, even on a good ay.
-==-My wife finds it easier to do as she is less so, and she is better at keeping her patience with him, which is why i think they have a better connection. I also think that they are very alike so she finds it a lot easier to empathise with how he is feeling, whereas I am more like my eldest daughter so I am able to empathise more with her about how she feels about her brothers behaviour.
-=-
I think you need to value your child over your clean house, definitely, and not divide your family into teams.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Perhaps he was a preemie. (I mean you would know, but that can happen with preemies.)
Liam McClure was a preemie and some of his development is discussed here. He was kept very very happy, until he was fourteen or fifteen, for sure (and not so bad afterwards). He's home following tour in Afghanistan as a US Marine, but years ago his mom wrote this about him:
http://sandradodd.com/r/carol
Slow to speech might be slow to thought, and if you seem to be expecting him to "act his age," that could contribute. If he seems young, treat him gently and patiently, as though he were young, without comparing him, without "sending him the bill" for your kindnesses.
-=-... struggles within his peer group. -=-
But...
If he's young for his age, and doesn't have good language, then his "peer group" should be younger, less verbal people. Is he often being put with kids his age? That might be part of the problem.
-=- He gets excited and wants to wrestle, which we do with him too, but he doesn't seem to get that he is hurting others and when we point it out he screams and yells that he doesn't care and that we ruin his fun. He wants us to not stop him so he can carry on wrestling, despite the fact that the other person is hurting. -=-
Have you considered martial arts or other things that can provide large muscle activity without at team-sports overlay? Boxing? Gymnastics? Some rough kids benefit from having a martial arts teacher who helps him see that he has a reponsibility to use power for good, and not to hurt people.
-=- We do try and look behind his behaviour but will often point out that we understand but the choice wasn't a good one and a better one could have been xxx.-=-
Instead of saying "You were wrong, and here was the right answer" (if you did, even in the least), maybe ask him why he did what he did.
Did his sister use his headphones without asking?
Did he ask her to give them back?
-=-I would like to know how I can let him know that his behaviour was hurtful to his sister - it wasn't a good choice - without exacerbating his anger? -=-
Don't you think he knows already?
-=-I feel I owe it to his sister to step in and say something. -=-
You don't "owe it" to her to make him more unhappy than he already is. It's not helping her for you to do that, and it's not putting them on the same team in any way. It's you taking her side against him. And maybe that's been going on for a long time.
-=-Mainly this is to do with my need to have a clean and ordered house-=-
HOW clean and how ordered? You have children. You can't live in a hotel unless you can afford a fulltime maid.
-=-He says, 'you care so much about cleaning - more than you do me', 'you are obsessed with the house' etc. I have started to back off from saying these things and turning a blind eye to messes he is creating, but it is so hard for me as I am quite houseproud.-=-
Did you not know, though, before you had children that they are messy?
Didn't you think, when you decided to homeschool, that they would be home all the time? Schools are pretty messy places, even on a good ay.
-==-My wife finds it easier to do as she is less so, and she is better at keeping her patience with him, which is why i think they have a better connection. I also think that they are very alike so she finds it a lot easier to empathise with how he is feeling, whereas I am more like my eldest daughter so I am able to empathise more with her about how she feels about her brothers behaviour.
-=-
I think you need to value your child over your clean house, definitely, and not divide your family into teams.
http://sandradodd.com/partners
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Pommies
I was also just thinking hard about why my wife has a better connection with him, and I think a lot of it also has to do with her ability to be able to play. She seems to be playing constantly and it comes naturally to her. I do try but I find it harder, don't enjoy it, and am not very good at it. I know I need to change that and be more playful but I don't know how. I watch her and I know I need to do more of that, but even during it I seem to be more focused on adult thoughts (the mess, safety etc), but I also find it hard to be silly. I need some help to change but how??
Mike.
Mike.
--- In [email protected], "The Pommies" <thepommies@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I just wrote a big long response and then it seemed to disappear into the ether!!
>
> Just to clarify our situation, as from all your questions, I think I wasn't totally clear. My son was diagnosed with ADHD, ODD, and CAPD a couple of years ago after struggling in school. My wife (who did a lot of research, and followed her instincts) felt then and now that this was nonense and that he has no 'special needs' (she hates that term in fact). She wanted to unschool and I went along with it but had doubts. Over the last couple of years though I have seen the huge benefits for all four of our children and I now believe in the philosophy completely on the educational side, and on the parenting side for my other children. However, I am still struggling on the parenting side with my son because I feel he is 'high need' 'explosive' or whatever label you want to throw at him. I am torn between whether he needs a firmer hand or a gentler approach, and in practice the latter is difficult. I guess I find him more challenging than my other children, and when I look at other 9 year old boys he seems harder to manage than them.
>
> Although his hearing is now fine, his speech is ok, he doesn't have a great vocabulary and he isn't a very good communicator so that definately is an issue. He seems very young for his age and therefore struggles within his peer group. His biggest problem with friendships is he doesn't seem to be aware when he is being too rough with others - friends, sisters, and us. He gets excited and wants to wrestle, which we do with him too, but he doesn't seem to get that he is hurting others and when we point it out he screams and yells that he doesn't care and that we ruin his fun. He wants us to not stop him so he can carry on wrestling, despite the fact that the other person is hurting.
>
> When Joyce said to try and meet his need rather than highlight his 'bad' choice that resonated with me. We do try and look behind his behaviour but will often point out that we understand but the choice wasn't a good one and a better one could have been xxx. For example, he was given some headphones recently. His sister has been using them in the back of the car when we go out to listen to her ipod. Yesterday he destroyed them and she was very upset. They had a yelling match, and when I stepped in calmly he said he didn't care that he upset her because he wanted to because she was 'evil'. Later my wife spoke to him and he said he did it because he didn't want her listening to the ipod instead of talking to him. These are the sorts of things that are occuring in our house on a daily basis. A lot of rage directed at myself, and his sisters. Very rarely his mother.
> In a situation like this, I would like to know how I can let him know that his behaviour was hurtful to his sister - it wasn't a good choice - without exacerbating his anger? I feel I owe it to his sister to step in and say something.
>
> I know that he feels controlled and limited by me (although in conventional terms he has a huge amount of freedom). Mainly this is to do with my need to have a clean and ordered house. I 'ask' him not to spray water in the bathroom, not leave food in his room, not take drinks in the lounge, for example and he gets very angry. He says, 'you care so much about cleaning - more than you do me', 'you are obsessed with the house' etc. I have started to back off from saying these things and turning a blind eye to messes he is creating, but it is so hard for me as I am quite houseproud. My wife finds it easier to do as she is less so, and she is better at keeping her patience with him, which is why i think they have a better connection. I also think that they are very alike so she finds it a lot easier to empathise with how he is feeling, whereas I am more like my eldest daughter so I am able to empathise more with her about how she feels about her brothers behaviour.
>
> We are both home all the time as we both work part-time from home and have done since we removed them from school, so we parent together.
>
> Thanks everyone who has responded so far, and I hope that helps to clarify our situation better.
>
> Mike.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In [email protected], "plaidpanties666" <plaidpanties666@> wrote:
> >
> > "The Pommies" <thepommies@> wrote:
> > >> My son had speech problems from an early age and speech therapy is on going.
> > ******************
> >
> > I had another thought about this, which is that kids who are hard of hearing sometimes have a lot of anger at their families. I don't know if this boy is hard of hearing or not, but it could be he's angry for essentially the same reason which is that he feels like He's the one who has to do all the work to communicate, that no-one is trying to speak to him in a language that works for him.
> >
> > If he's having trouble communicating, its important for parents to work harder at understanding - listening, reading non-verbal cues, looking, and thinking about what he's trying to express.
> >
> > ---Meredith
> >
>
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 30, 2011, at 8:18 PM, The Pommies wrote:
people's perceptions. It won't help you understand him if you're
judging his perceptions as right or wrong. He has formed these
impressions for reasons that make sense to him and if you want those
perceptions to change, you'll need to change.
feelings in the process then he's absolutely right.
I can't remember the incident but clearly remember my daughter's
reaction. She may have spilled something and I got upset and she said
"You care more about the carpet than you do about me." While over all
not true, but of course in the moment it very much seemed that way to
her. I didn't ever want her to feel less important than the carpet and
made sure I didn't treat her like that again.
bathroom," find ways he can spray water. And spray lots of things.
Shaving cream. Play with pudding.
Instead of no, find ways he *can* do something. You're not doing him
any favors by allowing him to destroy things. But you're not meeting
his needs by not finding *better* ways for him to meet them.
Make frequent sweeps of his favorite places to pick up left behind
food and drinks. If he's headed for the kitchen ask if he'll take
something with him. (And don't criticize if he doesn't do it
"right" (eg, your way).
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I know that he feels controlled and limited by me (although inHe's going to react to his perception of his world, not to other
> conventional terms he has a huge amount of freedom).
people's perceptions. It won't help you understand him if you're
judging his perceptions as right or wrong. He has formed these
impressions for reasons that make sense to him and if you want those
perceptions to change, you'll need to change.
> He says, 'you care so much about cleaning - more than you do me',Believe him. If you've ever gotten upset about the house hurting his
> 'you are obsessed with the house' etc.
feelings in the process then he's absolutely right.
I can't remember the incident but clearly remember my daughter's
reaction. She may have spilled something and I got upset and she said
"You care more about the carpet than you do about me." While over all
not true, but of course in the moment it very much seemed that way to
her. I didn't ever want her to feel less important than the carpet and
made sure I didn't treat her like that again.
> I have started to back off from saying these things and turning aHow about finding the yes. Instead of saying "Don't spray water in the
> blind eye to messes he is creating
bathroom," find ways he can spray water. And spray lots of things.
Shaving cream. Play with pudding.
Instead of no, find ways he *can* do something. You're not doing him
any favors by allowing him to destroy things. But you're not meeting
his needs by not finding *better* ways for him to meet them.
> not leave food in his room, not take drinks in the lounge, forCan other people eat and drink outside the kitchen?
> example and he gets very angry.
Make frequent sweeps of his favorite places to pick up left behind
food and drinks. If he's headed for the kitchen ask if he'll take
something with him. (And don't criticize if he doesn't do it
"right" (eg, your way).
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- She seems to be playing constantly and it comes naturally to her. I do try but I find it harder, don't enjoy it, and am not very good at it. I know I need to change that and be more playful but I don't know how. I watch her and I know I need to do more of that, but even during it I seem to be more focused on adult thoughts (the mess, safety etc), but I also find it hard to be silly. I need some help to change but how??-=-
Maybe start with smiling. Engage emotionally, even if you're not to the point of being able to pretend or to relax into an unstructured situation.
What about table games? Not traditional board games; many of them are irritating. But something like Five Crowns, as a game to learn as a family, maybe? (Or rummy, if you don't live where you can buy a Five Crowns deck, or something not to boring for the adults but not too hard for the kids.)
http://sandradodd.com/play
http://sandradodd.com/gifts
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Those might net you some ideas. Don't try to jump from where you are to being a whole new person. That won't work. Just inch toward the way you would rather be by being more accepting, more creative, more joyful.
http://sandradodd.com/wonder might help as much as any of those above.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Maybe start with smiling. Engage emotionally, even if you're not to the point of being able to pretend or to relax into an unstructured situation.
What about table games? Not traditional board games; many of them are irritating. But something like Five Crowns, as a game to learn as a family, maybe? (Or rummy, if you don't live where you can buy a Five Crowns deck, or something not to boring for the adults but not too hard for the kids.)
http://sandradodd.com/play
http://sandradodd.com/gifts
http://sandradodd.com/checklists
Those might net you some ideas. Don't try to jump from where you are to being a whole new person. That won't work. Just inch toward the way you would rather be by being more accepting, more creative, more joyful.
http://sandradodd.com/wonder might help as much as any of those above.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rinelle
A lot of the things you have described about your son sound a lot like my
daughter. She's 7 now, but we first began to be concerned when she was
around 4. We made the mistake of taking her to a psychologist, and though
we didn't get any formal diagnosis, I'm sure some could have been applied if
we had pushed! Instead, the psych suggested normal methods of time out etc
to deal with the problems we were experiencing (at the time, hitting us,
ourbursts etc), which in the long term only made the problem worse!
The biggest change we've seen in our daughter's behaviour has been since
discovering unschooling about 18 months ago. In my experience, the
'gentler' approach of seeing our daughter's behaviour as expressing her
needs rather than as bad behaviour, and actively helping her look for ways
to meet those needs, has made huge changes in her behaviour. Any attempt to
try a firmer hand or any dicipline measures has only made the situation
worse, and thus taken longer to recover from.
has a lot of trouble expressing herself in regards to anything emotional. I
have had to guess what is bothering her many times, and try to clarify with
her later when she has calmed down. When she's emotional, she simply cannot
talk about it, so we've found it best to just sit with her and wait until
she's calmed down, and even then, to only express any concerns (such as not
hitting people), in the simplest way possible.
a lifesaver for us, as has a swing. Lots of wrestling with my husband and
I, with gentle reminders if she's hurting us, has helped imensely, and she
now seems a little more aware of her own body movement.
If, however, we get angry if she accidently hurts us, she gets quite
distressed, and shuts down, I believe this is because she is just so upset
at having hurt us that she can't deal with it. As you have described with
your son, she will scream and yell at us if we point out that she's hurt
someone and try to make it into a lesson on what to do. For us, a simple,
"Ouch, that hurt", or asking to stop for a moment if necessary, has been far
more effective at helping her know when she's hurting someone than making a
big deal out of it.
time. Instead of focusing on making him understand that his choice was bad,
it is more helpful to look at other ways he can get his needs met, and if
possible, to help him meet them. If he has an alternative that works more
effectively at getting those needs met, then he will be more likely to
choose that.
sitting at the table to eat, and hated even us sitting at the table to eat.
She wanted to play. So we got rid of our dining table, and now we all eat
in front of the TV (which is what DH and I did before our daughter was born,
but for some reason we thought we should sit at the table once she was old
enough!)
I've found it really hard to let go of the idea of not making a mess. DD
loves to play with water at the sink, mix up mixtures of flour, then sift
them, or play with other similarly messy substances. I've learnt that if I
can work with her with this, find ways that she can play with less mess
(putting down a towel underneath what she's doing for example), then she is
so much happier, and the mess rarely takes as long to clean up as I thought
it would! Sometimes I have to step away and let DH do these messy
activities with her if I really can't watch, then I step in to clean up
after it's done.
There was a post a few months back that really resonated with me, and helped
move me past one of my sticking points. I think it was about a child who
had been diagnosed with oppositional defiance disorder, and someone made the
comment that a child can't be defiant if they had nothing to be defiant
against. At first I thought of all the examples in my head of when my
daughter had been defiant over nothing, but as I did, I realised that in
actual fact, in each example, she was reacting to a 'rule' that was so
ingrained in my head that I didn't even realise it was there! And most of
those ideas were so silly and pointless, that to be honest I can't even
remember an example. Once I realised this, I was able to let go of another
layer of 'shoulds', and we've been much happier since. I think perhaps I
need to do that again, as we're going through another difficult stage right
now.
It has been quite a journey for me, and one I wouldn't have even embarked
upon if my daughter had responded to more conventional parenting, and for
that I'm constantly grateful. Reading here on the list for the last 18
months has made such a huge shift in my thinking that I find many of the
ideas I previously held as pointless. It isn't an easy shift, especially
not if you had a very conventional upbringing (I didn't), but it is well
worth it in the long run for both the happiness of your kids, and for your
own happiness.
Tamara
daughter. She's 7 now, but we first began to be concerned when she was
around 4. We made the mistake of taking her to a psychologist, and though
we didn't get any formal diagnosis, I'm sure some could have been applied if
we had pushed! Instead, the psych suggested normal methods of time out etc
to deal with the problems we were experiencing (at the time, hitting us,
ourbursts etc), which in the long term only made the problem worse!
The biggest change we've seen in our daughter's behaviour has been since
discovering unschooling about 18 months ago. In my experience, the
'gentler' approach of seeing our daughter's behaviour as expressing her
needs rather than as bad behaviour, and actively helping her look for ways
to meet those needs, has made huge changes in her behaviour. Any attempt to
try a firmer hand or any dicipline measures has only made the situation
worse, and thus taken longer to recover from.
> Although his hearing is now fine, his speech is ok, he doesn't have aMy daughter talked early, and has a large vocabulary of words, yet she still
> great vocabulary and he isn't a very good
> communicator so that definately is an issue.
has a lot of trouble expressing herself in regards to anything emotional. I
have had to guess what is bothering her many times, and try to clarify with
her later when she has calmed down. When she's emotional, she simply cannot
talk about it, so we've found it best to just sit with her and wait until
she's calmed down, and even then, to only express any concerns (such as not
hitting people), in the simplest way possible.
> His biggest problem with friendships is he doesn't seem to be aware whenMy daughter needs a great deal of physical activity. A trampoline has been
> he is being too rough with others - friends,
> sisters, and us. He gets excited and wants to wrestle, which we do with
> him too, but he doesn't seem to get that he is
> hurting others and when we point it out he screams and yells that he
> doesn't care and that we ruin his fun. He wants
> us to not stop him so he can carry on wrestling, despite the fact that the
> other person is hurting.
a lifesaver for us, as has a swing. Lots of wrestling with my husband and
I, with gentle reminders if she's hurting us, has helped imensely, and she
now seems a little more aware of her own body movement.
If, however, we get angry if she accidently hurts us, she gets quite
distressed, and shuts down, I believe this is because she is just so upset
at having hurt us that she can't deal with it. As you have described with
your son, she will scream and yell at us if we point out that she's hurt
someone and try to make it into a lesson on what to do. For us, a simple,
"Ouch, that hurt", or asking to stop for a moment if necessary, has been far
more effective at helping her know when she's hurting someone than making a
big deal out of it.
> When Joyce said to try and meet his need rather than highlight his 'bad'He was making the best choice he could think of to get his needs met at the
> choice that resonated with me. We do try
> and look behind his behaviour but will often point out that we understand
> but the choice wasn't a good one and a
> better one could have been xxx.
time. Instead of focusing on making him understand that his choice was bad,
it is more helpful to look at other ways he can get his needs met, and if
possible, to help him meet them. If he has an alternative that works more
effectively at getting those needs met, then he will be more likely to
choose that.
> I know that he feels controlled and limited by me (although inWe had to let go of these expectations quite early on. My daughter hated
> conventional terms he has a huge amount of freedom).
> Mainly this is to do with my need to have a clean and ordered house. I
> 'ask' him not to spray water in the bathroom, > not leave food in his
> room, not take drinks in the lounge, for example and he gets very angry.
> He says, 'you care so
> much about cleaning - more than you do me', 'you are obsessed with the
> house' etc. I have started to back off from
> saying these things and turning a blind eye to messes he is creating, but
> it is so hard for me as I am quite houseproud.
sitting at the table to eat, and hated even us sitting at the table to eat.
She wanted to play. So we got rid of our dining table, and now we all eat
in front of the TV (which is what DH and I did before our daughter was born,
but for some reason we thought we should sit at the table once she was old
enough!)
I've found it really hard to let go of the idea of not making a mess. DD
loves to play with water at the sink, mix up mixtures of flour, then sift
them, or play with other similarly messy substances. I've learnt that if I
can work with her with this, find ways that she can play with less mess
(putting down a towel underneath what she's doing for example), then she is
so much happier, and the mess rarely takes as long to clean up as I thought
it would! Sometimes I have to step away and let DH do these messy
activities with her if I really can't watch, then I step in to clean up
after it's done.
There was a post a few months back that really resonated with me, and helped
move me past one of my sticking points. I think it was about a child who
had been diagnosed with oppositional defiance disorder, and someone made the
comment that a child can't be defiant if they had nothing to be defiant
against. At first I thought of all the examples in my head of when my
daughter had been defiant over nothing, but as I did, I realised that in
actual fact, in each example, she was reacting to a 'rule' that was so
ingrained in my head that I didn't even realise it was there! And most of
those ideas were so silly and pointless, that to be honest I can't even
remember an example. Once I realised this, I was able to let go of another
layer of 'shoulds', and we've been much happier since. I think perhaps I
need to do that again, as we're going through another difficult stage right
now.
It has been quite a journey for me, and one I wouldn't have even embarked
upon if my daughter had responded to more conventional parenting, and for
that I'm constantly grateful. Reading here on the list for the last 18
months has made such a huge shift in my thinking that I find many of the
ideas I previously held as pointless. It isn't an easy shift, especially
not if you had a very conventional upbringing (I didn't), but it is well
worth it in the long run for both the happiness of your kids, and for your
own happiness.
Tamara
Sandra Dodd
For kids needing more physical activity, here are ideas:
http://sandradodd.com/physicality/
For kids who seem to be lacking in emotional awareness (even though they're verbal) or verbal and emotional, reading about intelligences might help:
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
There's a lot written about that, on the internet and in books, though much of it has to do with school's considerations.
Sandra
http://sandradodd.com/physicality/
For kids who seem to be lacking in emotional awareness (even though they're verbal) or verbal and emotional, reading about intelligences might help:
http://sandradodd.com/intelligences
There's a lot written about that, on the internet and in books, though much of it has to do with school's considerations.
Sandra
dapsign
> -=- She seems to be playing constantly and it comes naturally to her. I do try but I find it harder, don't enjoy it, and am not very good at it. I know I need to change that and be more playful but I don't know how. I watch her and I know I need to do more of that, but even during it I seem to be more focused on adult thoughts (the mess, safety etc), but I also find it hard to be silly. I need some help to change but how??-=-In addition to the links Sandra mentioned, you may want to check out the book "Playful Parenting" by Lawrence Cohen. It seems that amazon.com has it and you can preview a few pages on the amazon site to see if it's something resonates with you.
Dina
Sandra Dodd
Oh! I meant to bring this idea, as to playing and seeing a child from a different perspective, even for a parent who loves having a clean and orderly house.
http://sandraeurope2011.blogspot.com/2011/05/zoom-saves-world.html
Two pictures, taken from exactly the same spot, without changing the angle I was facing one bit. All the things in the world are in the world. What will you look at in any given moment? What will be the object, and what will be the field? Sometimes one's child needs to be the only thing in the picture.
Another use of that photo:
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2011/08/seeing-choices.html
Sandra
http://sandraeurope2011.blogspot.com/2011/05/zoom-saves-world.html
Two pictures, taken from exactly the same spot, without changing the angle I was facing one bit. All the things in the world are in the world. What will you look at in any given moment? What will be the object, and what will be the field? Sometimes one's child needs to be the only thing in the picture.
Another use of that photo:
http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com/2011/08/seeing-choices.html
Sandra
Sandra Dodd
http://www.amazon.com/Playful-Parenting-Lawrence-J-Cohen/dp/0345442865
(A link to the book listing itself, rather than just to amazon's main page.)
Sandra
(A link to the book listing itself, rather than just to amazon's main page.)
Sandra
BRIAN POLIKOWSKY
<<<"I was also just thinking hard about why my wife has a better connection with him, and I think a lot of it also has to do with her ability to be able to play. She seems to be playing constantly and it comes naturally to her. I do try but I find it harder, don't enjoy it, and am not very good at it. I know I need to change that and be more playful but I don't know how. I watch her and I know I need to do more of that, but even during it I seem to be more focused on adult thoughts (the mess, safety etc), but I also find it hard to be silly. I need some help to change but how??">>>
\\
>This is a great post on a blog by a dad
>
http://www.danoah.com/2010/09/you-just-broke-your-child.html
He is not an unschooling that but I thing this is a powerful post that every dad needs to read:
There are really good post in this blog by an unschooling dad:
http://justabaldman.blogspot.com/
Alex Polikowsky
_
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Rinelle
> > -=- She seems to be playing constantly and it comes naturally to her. II second this recommendation. I'm not good at either playing or being
> > do try but I find it harder, don't enjoy it, and
> am not very good at it. I know I need to change that and be more playful
> but I don't know how. I watch her and I
> know I need to do more of that, but even during it I seem to be more
> focused on adult thoughts (the mess, safety
> etc), but I also find it hard to be silly. I need some help to change but
> how??-=-
>
> In addition to the links Sandra mentioned, you may want to check out the
> book "Playful Parenting" by Lawrence
> Cohen. It seems that amazon.com has it and you can preview a few pages on
> the amazon site to see if it's something > resonates with you.
playful, but this book has some great ideas both on how to play with your
kids, and why it is important to them. If you have an e-book reader, you
can preview the first chapter on Amazon for free.
Tamara
Pam Sorooshian
On 8/30/2011 7:56 PM, Sandra Dodd wrote:
involve "playing pretend." At our family parties, these are great
"mixers" of all ages.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> What about table games? Not traditional board games; many of them areMaybe a corn bag toss game. Or bolo toss. Those are physical, and don't
> irritating. But something like Five Crowns, as a game to learn as a
> family, maybe? (Or rummy, if you don't live where you can buy a Five
> Crowns deck, or something not to boring for the adults but not too
> hard for the kids.)
involve "playing pretend." At our family parties, these are great
"mixers" of all ages.
-pam
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
I am sorry that you are having such distress within your family. I am going
to make some general comments, really just providing some questions that you
may want to explore with yourself and your wife.
My immediate thoughts are that if you are trying to get a message through to
someone that you care about (like a parent, who should be helping get your
needs met) and it isn't getting through, it is VERY frustrating. Humans,
young or adult, often get angry when they are frustrated. There is even a
very scientific sounding theory called the "frustration-aggression
hypothesis" that has been supported by a lot of research. How is
frustration dealt with in your family? How do you deal with frustration?
Have you figured out how to LISTEN to your son in a way that allows him to
feel safe, accepted and valued? Has he become what therapists like to call
the "identified patient" of the family? If this has happened, then your son
will become the eye of the family hurricane.
A family is a unit and everyone impacts everyone else, for good or for
ill. How does your behaviour impact your son, wife, other children?
Children tend to learn most by seeing what adults do and then modeling that
behaviour. What behaviour of yours are your children modeling?
My last comment is about ritalin. Many children do not respond well to
ritalin. Many times if a child is nearing puberty it can contribute to
rageful, out of control, seemingly psychotic behaviour that is really very
scary. If it is not helping, then I would contact the prescribing physician
and demand that he/she give me a schedule to back him off of the ritalin.
You should not just cease giving it to him, because it can cause problems if
it is suddenly stopped. Ritalin is a very powerful stimulant that can
heighten normal frustration, aggression, anger, etc. into frightening
episodes. Ritalin can also have long term effects on cardiac health that is
very worrying. This isn't condemnation of medicating children, but there
are always risks and gains to be weighed with all meds, even an aspirin or
tylenol.
I come from a family full of people with diagnoses of ADHD (attention
deficit-hyperactivity disorder) and a few that probably would qualify for a
diagnosis. Most of us did not have good results with ritalin. A few had
good response to ritalin, while learning other coping strategies like
bio-feedback, meditation, and breathing exercises. I used simple
meditation and breathing exercises with my children to help them maintain
control, when the environment was too stimulating. Also, we often left a
place if it was too overwhelming for either child, or turned off the tv, or
switched to a new activity or got out of the house, or whatever else would
help. It wasn't always easy, but now that they are teens, they are very in
charge of themselves. Development goes a long way towards helping a child
learn to cope, as well. Try to see the behaviour of your children on a
continuum of development of coping ability and skills. Some of us are more
sensitive and more easily set out of kilter and less able to calm down
quickly. Then, ask yourself, if this could just be a trait, instead of a
diagnosis waiting to happen.
When my children were small, my son was easily overstimulated and easily
upset by any small thing. It took a while for me to realize that I would
get very upset (and them angry) at his discomfort. I would then get a look
on my face and react badly, even though I thought that I was being nice and
comforting, I was being angry and belittling. I had to search myself and
figure out that when my son had these reactions, I took it to mean that I
was failing to do a good job as a mom. I took it personally. I had to
relearn to take a deep breath and smile. To see this behaviour for what it
was, a developmental hiccup, that he and I would grow through. I also
instead focused on what worked for him and then manipulated the environment
so that it was something that he could cope with. We stayed out of crowds
for about 6 months. My mother, who could grasp that children deserved
respect, would watch my son when I had to go shopping. When I came home, he
would have had a marvelous time with Nan and then help put the groceries
away, an activity that he really enjoyed. Also, I came to realize that my
son needed a great deal of alone time to decompress. When I learned to
respect his desire to play alone sometimes and encouraged him to express his
needs and then respected them, he felt more able to control his own
environment and so had less reason to act out. Sometimes doing nothing,
requiring nothing and expecting nothing is the best route.
Chris
to make some general comments, really just providing some questions that you
may want to explore with yourself and your wife.
My immediate thoughts are that if you are trying to get a message through to
someone that you care about (like a parent, who should be helping get your
needs met) and it isn't getting through, it is VERY frustrating. Humans,
young or adult, often get angry when they are frustrated. There is even a
very scientific sounding theory called the "frustration-aggression
hypothesis" that has been supported by a lot of research. How is
frustration dealt with in your family? How do you deal with frustration?
Have you figured out how to LISTEN to your son in a way that allows him to
feel safe, accepted and valued? Has he become what therapists like to call
the "identified patient" of the family? If this has happened, then your son
will become the eye of the family hurricane.
A family is a unit and everyone impacts everyone else, for good or for
ill. How does your behaviour impact your son, wife, other children?
Children tend to learn most by seeing what adults do and then modeling that
behaviour. What behaviour of yours are your children modeling?
My last comment is about ritalin. Many children do not respond well to
ritalin. Many times if a child is nearing puberty it can contribute to
rageful, out of control, seemingly psychotic behaviour that is really very
scary. If it is not helping, then I would contact the prescribing physician
and demand that he/she give me a schedule to back him off of the ritalin.
You should not just cease giving it to him, because it can cause problems if
it is suddenly stopped. Ritalin is a very powerful stimulant that can
heighten normal frustration, aggression, anger, etc. into frightening
episodes. Ritalin can also have long term effects on cardiac health that is
very worrying. This isn't condemnation of medicating children, but there
are always risks and gains to be weighed with all meds, even an aspirin or
tylenol.
I come from a family full of people with diagnoses of ADHD (attention
deficit-hyperactivity disorder) and a few that probably would qualify for a
diagnosis. Most of us did not have good results with ritalin. A few had
good response to ritalin, while learning other coping strategies like
bio-feedback, meditation, and breathing exercises. I used simple
meditation and breathing exercises with my children to help them maintain
control, when the environment was too stimulating. Also, we often left a
place if it was too overwhelming for either child, or turned off the tv, or
switched to a new activity or got out of the house, or whatever else would
help. It wasn't always easy, but now that they are teens, they are very in
charge of themselves. Development goes a long way towards helping a child
learn to cope, as well. Try to see the behaviour of your children on a
continuum of development of coping ability and skills. Some of us are more
sensitive and more easily set out of kilter and less able to calm down
quickly. Then, ask yourself, if this could just be a trait, instead of a
diagnosis waiting to happen.
When my children were small, my son was easily overstimulated and easily
upset by any small thing. It took a while for me to realize that I would
get very upset (and them angry) at his discomfort. I would then get a look
on my face and react badly, even though I thought that I was being nice and
comforting, I was being angry and belittling. I had to search myself and
figure out that when my son had these reactions, I took it to mean that I
was failing to do a good job as a mom. I took it personally. I had to
relearn to take a deep breath and smile. To see this behaviour for what it
was, a developmental hiccup, that he and I would grow through. I also
instead focused on what worked for him and then manipulated the environment
so that it was something that he could cope with. We stayed out of crowds
for about 6 months. My mother, who could grasp that children deserved
respect, would watch my son when I had to go shopping. When I came home, he
would have had a marvelous time with Nan and then help put the groceries
away, an activity that he really enjoyed. Also, I came to realize that my
son needed a great deal of alone time to decompress. When I learned to
respect his desire to play alone sometimes and encouraged him to express his
needs and then respected them, he felt more able to control his own
environment and so had less reason to act out. Sometimes doing nothing,
requiring nothing and expecting nothing is the best route.
Chris
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 12:51 AM, The Pommies <thepommies@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> Hi everyone.
>
> >>I am a dad to a 9 year old boy who I believe has some issues that need
> help with. My wife has been unschooling our children for a couple of years
> and is very much committed to this way of life. I, on the otherhand, have
> taken on most of the philosophy but am still learning and struggling at
> times. Our main sticking point is the problems we have with our son, and as
> I am also seeking medical professional advice she suggested I post my
> worries on here as well. So here goes...
>
> Mike<<<
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 11:28 AM, sheeboo2 <brmino@...> wrote:
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> **choice for many addicts.
>
>
> >> Think of it in terms of speed, the street drug--what you're giving him
> isn't any different. Have you ever met a speed freak?<<
>
>
> Ritalin IS speed. It has a very high street value and is the drug of
Chris
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
chris ester
On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>wrote:
we used to use every day. When my children got big enough (toddler aged)
that these "precious" dishes started getting broken, I decided to pack them
all up and put them away. I would get so upset over these silly dishes and
my children would see that and become upset--over a dish! I bought pretty,
but inexpensive and certainly not antique, dish ware and a large assortment
of mugs and cups from thrift shops, as well as kid friendly plastic cups.
From then on, if a dish was broken, I could calmly respond, "Oh well, let's
clean it up." Now that they are older, I think we may be ready to bring out
my old set--maybe.
The rest of Joyce's post seems to basically address that, as parents, it
goes a long way to create an environment and atmosphere that allows joy to
grow and be nurtured.
Chris
> **I am a collector of crockery and I have a lovely set of antique dishes that
>
>
>
> On Aug 30, 2011, at 8:18 PM, The Pommies wrote:
>
>
> > He says, 'you care so much about cleaning - more than you do me',
> > 'you are obsessed with the house' etc.
>
> ***Believe him. If you've ever gotten upset about the house hurting his
> feelings in the process then he's absolutely right.****
>
we used to use every day. When my children got big enough (toddler aged)
that these "precious" dishes started getting broken, I decided to pack them
all up and put them away. I would get so upset over these silly dishes and
my children would see that and become upset--over a dish! I bought pretty,
but inexpensive and certainly not antique, dish ware and a large assortment
of mugs and cups from thrift shops, as well as kid friendly plastic cups.
From then on, if a dish was broken, I could calmly respond, "Oh well, let's
clean it up." Now that they are older, I think we may be ready to bring out
my old set--maybe.
The rest of Joyce's post seems to basically address that, as parents, it
goes a long way to create an environment and atmosphere that allows joy to
grow and be nurtured.
Chris
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
Schuyler
>>When Joyce said to try and meet his need rather than highlight his 'bad' choiceIn a situation like this, I would like to know how I can let him know that his
>>that resonated with me. We do try and look behind his behaviour but will often
>>point out that we understand but the choice wasn't a good one and a better one
>>could have been xxx. For example, he was given some headphones recently. His
>>sister has been using them in the back of the car when we go out to listen to
>>her ipod. Yesterday he destroyed them and she was very upset. They had a
>>yelling match, and when I stepped in calmly he said he didn't care that he
>>upset her because he wanted to because she was 'evil'. Later my wife spoke to
>>him and he said he did it because he didn't want her listening to the ipod
>>instead of talking to him. These are the sorts of things that are occuring in
>>our house on a daily basis. A lot of rage directed at myself, and his
>>sisters. Very rarely his mother.
>>
behaviour was hurtful to his sister - it wasn't a good choice - without
exacerbating his anger? I feel I owe it to his sister to step in and say
something. <<
----------------------
I think it is very easy in moments like the one you describe to want the
attacker to feel guilty and to understand how they've wronged the victim. Given
what you've described I don't think your son will fathom what you are trying to
do. You will do much more for him and for his siblings and for yourself to be
kind to whomever got caught in the moment when he couldn't make himself clear
and to be kind to him. Recognise that she took his headphones, whether with
permission or not. Recognise that he couldn't communicate well enough that he
wanted her not to use them in that moment and destroying them became the easiest
way for him to solve that problem. Look bigger than your fear that he will
always be too angry to cope with the world. Look smaller as well. Look at your
son and see him as he is, not in comparison with other people, with other boys
his age. He isn't anyone else. You can't convince him to be someone else.
Part of a parent's perspective is wanting their children to all like each other,
to all get along. Let go of that. It isn't within your ability to make your
children like each other. Don't expect more of any of your children than they
are capable of giving/doing. Try really hard to see that he is doing the best he
can with what he has to get his needs met. It sounds as though he's quite low on
the empathy spectrum. He'll grow more empathy in a kinder environment. It isn't
possible to make him see more than he already sees. With time, with a generous
environment and kindness, he will see more ways to react to something than
destroying it. In part because more people will be working to understand him
instead of trying to get him to understand them.
Schuyler
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- It sounds as though he's quite low on
the empathy spectrum. He'll grow more empathy in a kinder environment. It isn't
possible to make him see more than he already sees. With time, with a generous
environment and kindness, he will see more ways to react to something than
destroying it. In part because more people will be working to understand him
instead of trying to get him to understand them. -=-
Schuyler is the least religious person I know, but she's just pretty much quoted St. Francis, at the end there. :-)
Truths are truths, and being mean to someone is not any way to help him become a nicer person. If I could go back and know then what I know now, I could have made my younger half-brother's life better. I had custody twice, and he was a fetal alcohol case, and no conscience was apparent much of the time, but I could have helped more and hurt less if I had known, in my 20's, what I knew in my 40's.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
the empathy spectrum. He'll grow more empathy in a kinder environment. It isn't
possible to make him see more than he already sees. With time, with a generous
environment and kindness, he will see more ways to react to something than
destroying it. In part because more people will be working to understand him
instead of trying to get him to understand them. -=-
Schuyler is the least religious person I know, but she's just pretty much quoted St. Francis, at the end there. :-)
Truths are truths, and being mean to someone is not any way to help him become a nicer person. If I could go back and know then what I know now, I could have made my younger half-brother's life better. I had custody twice, and he was a fetal alcohol case, and no conscience was apparent much of the time, but I could have helped more and hurt less if I had known, in my 20's, what I knew in my 40's.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Aug 30, 2011, at 10:02 PM, The Pommies wrote:
book Playful Parenting by Lawrence J. Cohen.
http://tinyurl.com/3dfhm85
Apparently he also co-wrote a book The Art of Roughhousing
http://tinyurl.com/3svqvee
When people struggle to change I think it's because they want the
benefits of the change without changing. Part of it is a matter of
feeling you lose and "they" win if you stop doing what you've always
done and start doing what "they" want you to, or doing what you're
"supposed" to do. There may be an aspect of the magical in the old
outlook too, a feeling that everything will fall apart if you stop
doing what you're doing.
So don't think of it as giving up something but as taking on something
new, something better that will have it's own benefits.
And find different ways to get what's important to you. If you felt
great with a big bowl of bran cereal that has nothing to do with your
son's needs. If you feel great in a clean house, that's your need and
not your son's. Children *do* create messes. Just as indoor cats poop
in the litter box. Those are aspects of taking on either. It's a
package deal. Kids don't see the world as adults do -- like some
adults want the house to look neat -- and won't until they're adults.
They aren't defective. They're kids.
If you need the house clean, clean without involving others. Do it
without taking time or energy that he needs from you. When your son is
recovered from feeling pressured to meet your needs, invite him along
to help in a friendly way. Do it not to elicit help (which it's likely
won't meet your standards anyway) but to do something fun together, to
connect with each other.
Find easier ways to keep the house tidy. Like big bins for toys so
things can be tossed in quickly. (Obviously this topic comes up fairly
frequently so there are many threads in the archives.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I seem to be more focused on adult thoughts (the mess, safety etc),I haven't read it but a lot of people in the past have suggested the
> but I also find it hard to be silly. I need some help to change but
> how??
book Playful Parenting by Lawrence J. Cohen.
http://tinyurl.com/3dfhm85
Apparently he also co-wrote a book The Art of Roughhousing
http://tinyurl.com/3svqvee
When people struggle to change I think it's because they want the
benefits of the change without changing. Part of it is a matter of
feeling you lose and "they" win if you stop doing what you've always
done and start doing what "they" want you to, or doing what you're
"supposed" to do. There may be an aspect of the magical in the old
outlook too, a feeling that everything will fall apart if you stop
doing what you're doing.
So don't think of it as giving up something but as taking on something
new, something better that will have it's own benefits.
And find different ways to get what's important to you. If you felt
great with a big bowl of bran cereal that has nothing to do with your
son's needs. If you feel great in a clean house, that's your need and
not your son's. Children *do* create messes. Just as indoor cats poop
in the litter box. Those are aspects of taking on either. It's a
package deal. Kids don't see the world as adults do -- like some
adults want the house to look neat -- and won't until they're adults.
They aren't defective. They're kids.
If you need the house clean, clean without involving others. Do it
without taking time or energy that he needs from you. When your son is
recovered from feeling pressured to meet your needs, invite him along
to help in a friendly way. Do it not to elicit help (which it's likely
won't meet your standards anyway) but to do something fun together, to
connect with each other.
Find easier ways to keep the house tidy. Like big bins for toys so
things can be tossed in quickly. (Obviously this topic comes up fairly
frequently so there are many threads in the archives.)
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]