seperation anxiety in 8 year old
gkcollins123
My daughter has always been shy. We chose to pull her out of school in the spring of her kindergarten year, and we've been unschooling since then. Shortly after her 7th birthday, she began to display the seperation anxiety that she still has to this day. She is now 8.5 years old. It began with her no longer wanting to spend the night with her friends or grandparents anymore ( two things she once loved to do). Next, she stopped going to the neighbors house to play with her best friend. She still happily plays with her friends, it just has to be at our house. Currently, she won't go anywhere without me. The few times I have had to leave her with my mom, she cries and gets very distressed (she'll cry the whole day before I have to leave her). Since this has been going on for so long, I called the pediatrician, who recommended we see a psychiatrist. I just want to do the best thing for my daughter. So far, we have tried our best to support her and have not pressured her to do anything that makes her feel uneasy. For example, a year ago, I enrolled her in an art class that her best friend was taking since she loves art and had told her friend she would take the class with her. She got very panicky before classes and complained of stomach aches. We took her out of the class, and the stomach problems and nervousness went away. I struggle with whether or not I am doing what I should be doing for her. I read online that if these issues are not dealt with at an early age, they can become very severe anxiety disorders in the teenage years and beyond. I would appreciate any advise. I'm concerned about seeing the psychiatrist and going that route. But I'm also concerned that if I don't do anything about it, things may get worse for my daughter. Just a bit of background info: We are an extremely close-nit family. My daughter has never suffered any trauma ( there was not an event that I can recall that precipitated this). Anxiety runs in my family.
Thank you!
Thank you!
Sandra Dodd
-=-Anxiety runs in my family. -=-
Either people can figure out how to deal with it as they get older, in natural, sensible ways, or they can't.
If that's the way she is, I wouldn't send her to a psychiatrist to make her certifiably mentally ill, with the receipts to prove it. I would give her space to be with you as much and as long as she wants to, to to allow her to separate gradually in her own way.
-=-My daughter has never suffered any trauma-=-
They why did you pull her out of school?
-=-Shortly after her 7th birthday, she began to display the seperation anxiety that she still has to this day. She is now 8.5 years old. It began with her no longer wanting to spend the night with her friends or grandparents anymore...-=-
Even in kids who are not shy or anxiety-prone, things happen as they get older to cause them to be more cautious. Slides they once went down seem scary or dangerous, when they get old enough to envision the dangers. Some kids aren't afraid of dogs at first, and then are for a while (or forever) even without any particular incident.
She might be thinking about the dangers of being without you, or realizing that the discomfort isn't inevitable. Some kids move through those things in a month, or one conversation, and some take years. I suggest you consider letting it take years. And if she grows up still anxious it will NOT be because you didn't pay professionals a whole lot of money.
Take the money you would have spent on psychiatric "intervention," and go on cool vacations where she can sleep with you and hold your hand as much as she wants to, but is still seeing exciting parts of the world. It will be a much better use of money.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Either people can figure out how to deal with it as they get older, in natural, sensible ways, or they can't.
If that's the way she is, I wouldn't send her to a psychiatrist to make her certifiably mentally ill, with the receipts to prove it. I would give her space to be with you as much and as long as she wants to, to to allow her to separate gradually in her own way.
-=-My daughter has never suffered any trauma-=-
They why did you pull her out of school?
-=-Shortly after her 7th birthday, she began to display the seperation anxiety that she still has to this day. She is now 8.5 years old. It began with her no longer wanting to spend the night with her friends or grandparents anymore...-=-
Even in kids who are not shy or anxiety-prone, things happen as they get older to cause them to be more cautious. Slides they once went down seem scary or dangerous, when they get old enough to envision the dangers. Some kids aren't afraid of dogs at first, and then are for a while (or forever) even without any particular incident.
She might be thinking about the dangers of being without you, or realizing that the discomfort isn't inevitable. Some kids move through those things in a month, or one conversation, and some take years. I suggest you consider letting it take years. And if she grows up still anxious it will NOT be because you didn't pay professionals a whole lot of money.
Take the money you would have spent on psychiatric "intervention," and go on cool vacations where she can sleep with you and hold your hand as much as she wants to, but is still seeing exciting parts of the world. It will be a much better use of money.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***She is now 8.5 years old. It began with her no longer wanting to spend the night with her friends or grandparents anymore ( two things she once loved to do).***
Margaux did that! Same age too, she's almost 10 now and I can see her slowly growing out of it. For a while she loved to have a sleep over or spend a whole day with a friend, but it didn't last long. In hindsight, I'm sure it was a test for herself to see how she liked it. She preferred the company of her own family, still does. Recently, she's expressing more interest in spending a small amount of solo time with a friend. She likes me to be near still and that works fine because I like the family of this kid and it's easy to spend a whole day with them and let the girls go and be by themselves for a time.
I wouldn't analyze it too much. Eventually she will want to be around other kids and people, but pushing her out of her comfort zone won't help her feel her own confidence or trust her instincts. Sometimes we both wish that there were neighbor kids that she liked because it would be easy to just go and play, but no matter how much we wish it, it isn't so.
*** I read online that if these issues are not dealt with at an early age, they can become very severe anxiety disorders in the teenage years and beyond. I would appreciate any advise. I'm concerned about seeing the psychiatrist and going that route. But I'm also concerned that if I don't do anything about it, things may get worse for my daughter.***
Right, well, all those kids probably go to school and are forced to be out of their comfort zone. I can see how that would make it worse as they enter teen years, the kid feels awkward and uncomfortable as a child and then enters puberty and after never being able to deal with their other social anxiety, now they feel uncomfortable in their own skin on top of that! That makes for a very bad combination! Now imagine a child that doesn't HAVE to be out of their comfort zone, finding comfortable ways of interacting with people, so that by the time they go through puberty, they feel just that little bit more confident that they can handle their own bodily discomfort easier. After all, they now have experience gauging their own comfort levels and can extend that to other things.
By not "doing anything" about it, you are meaning, not interfering and forcing. What you actually should do is support your child where they are right now. Meet and play with people where she is most comfortable and help her by honoring her own comfort levels and basic instincts about people. By doing so, you will be helping her trust herself and know herself and judge for herself the best way to be around others.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Margaux did that! Same age too, she's almost 10 now and I can see her slowly growing out of it. For a while she loved to have a sleep over or spend a whole day with a friend, but it didn't last long. In hindsight, I'm sure it was a test for herself to see how she liked it. She preferred the company of her own family, still does. Recently, she's expressing more interest in spending a small amount of solo time with a friend. She likes me to be near still and that works fine because I like the family of this kid and it's easy to spend a whole day with them and let the girls go and be by themselves for a time.
I wouldn't analyze it too much. Eventually she will want to be around other kids and people, but pushing her out of her comfort zone won't help her feel her own confidence or trust her instincts. Sometimes we both wish that there were neighbor kids that she liked because it would be easy to just go and play, but no matter how much we wish it, it isn't so.
*** I read online that if these issues are not dealt with at an early age, they can become very severe anxiety disorders in the teenage years and beyond. I would appreciate any advise. I'm concerned about seeing the psychiatrist and going that route. But I'm also concerned that if I don't do anything about it, things may get worse for my daughter.***
Right, well, all those kids probably go to school and are forced to be out of their comfort zone. I can see how that would make it worse as they enter teen years, the kid feels awkward and uncomfortable as a child and then enters puberty and after never being able to deal with their other social anxiety, now they feel uncomfortable in their own skin on top of that! That makes for a very bad combination! Now imagine a child that doesn't HAVE to be out of their comfort zone, finding comfortable ways of interacting with people, so that by the time they go through puberty, they feel just that little bit more confident that they can handle their own bodily discomfort easier. After all, they now have experience gauging their own comfort levels and can extend that to other things.
By not "doing anything" about it, you are meaning, not interfering and forcing. What you actually should do is support your child where they are right now. Meet and play with people where she is most comfortable and help her by honoring her own comfort levels and basic instincts about people. By doing so, you will be helping her trust herself and know herself and judge for herself the best way to be around others.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The Pommies
I really think you are worrying over nothing to be honest. My son, who is nearly 10, has always wanted to be close but over the last year has needed to be closer than usual and gets rather anxious if I am out of sight. Such as, if we go to a store he wants to be right next to me and know where I am the whole time, he won't pop to the toilet on his own in a restaurant, and he most certainly wouldn't go on a sleepover. He doesn't even like to be just with his dad at home so if I am popping out he comes with me.
He is very confident, however, in talking to people and going places - he just needs me right by his side at the moment. I wouldn't dream of taking him to see a shrink for that as I just see it as something he needs right now. All they will do with your daughter is make her (and convince you) that she has a 'problem' that needs 'fixing'.
It would be better I think for you to just reframe it as simply something she needs right now, and maybe for a while, until she feels confident to spend time apart.
He is very confident, however, in talking to people and going places - he just needs me right by his side at the moment. I wouldn't dream of taking him to see a shrink for that as I just see it as something he needs right now. All they will do with your daughter is make her (and convince you) that she has a 'problem' that needs 'fixing'.
It would be better I think for you to just reframe it as simply something she needs right now, and maybe for a while, until she feels confident to spend time apart.
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 25, 2011, at 2:25 PM, gkcollins123 wrote:
go anywhere in the house alone. It lasted about until 11ish maybe.
I'm guessing that at 7ish there's some mental shift in their
understanding of how the world works and for some it can disrupt what
they thought was a solid foundation. What helps most is giving them a
safe, secure space to rebuild in their own time.
kids who are not made to go to school react. What they are undoubtedly
comparing are kids whose fears are never listened to so know they
can't stay home to kids whose parents occasionally let them stay home.
The kids who know it's possible to stay home will obviously make a big
fuss. Kids who know they can't, are less likely to.
It's assume the kids who don't complain are doing better than the ones
who beg and plead when in truth the kids who know they can't stay home
have given up.
What if those kids are taken to psychiatrists where their anxiety is
not accepted as healthy. No matter how kind and caring the
psychiatrist, not a single one will say "This is normal. It will
pass." (They can't for two reasons: Their goal is to get the child to
attend school. And second, they don't know any children who were
allowed to stay home, were allowed to take dealing with a wider range
of people on their own schedule.
What choice do they have in how they see themselves? They *can't* see
themselves as normal. No one will acknowledge that what they feel is
okay.
So, yes, of course, psychiatrists are going to say anxiety will get
worse. They have no clue that being forced to go to school is the
problem because they don't have a control group of kids who aren't
forced to go to school to compare them to.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Shortly after her 7th birthday, she began to display the seperationWhile Kat didn't have separation anxiety, about that age she wouldn't
> anxiety that she still has to this day.
go anywhere in the house alone. It lasted about until 11ish maybe.
I'm guessing that at 7ish there's some mental shift in their
understanding of how the world works and for some it can disrupt what
they thought was a solid foundation. What helps most is giving them a
safe, secure space to rebuild in their own time.
> I read online that if these issues are not dealt with at an earlyAnd it's important to realize not a single "expert" has any clue how
> age, they can become very severe anxiety disorders in the teenage
> years and beyond.
kids who are not made to go to school react. What they are undoubtedly
comparing are kids whose fears are never listened to so know they
can't stay home to kids whose parents occasionally let them stay home.
The kids who know it's possible to stay home will obviously make a big
fuss. Kids who know they can't, are less likely to.
It's assume the kids who don't complain are doing better than the ones
who beg and plead when in truth the kids who know they can't stay home
have given up.
What if those kids are taken to psychiatrists where their anxiety is
not accepted as healthy. No matter how kind and caring the
psychiatrist, not a single one will say "This is normal. It will
pass." (They can't for two reasons: Their goal is to get the child to
attend school. And second, they don't know any children who were
allowed to stay home, were allowed to take dealing with a wider range
of people on their own schedule.
What choice do they have in how they see themselves? They *can't* see
themselves as normal. No one will acknowledge that what they feel is
okay.
So, yes, of course, psychiatrists are going to say anxiety will get
worse. They have no clue that being forced to go to school is the
problem because they don't have a control group of kids who aren't
forced to go to school to compare them to.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
gkcollins123
Thank you so much to all who have replied so far. I knew that posting here would be so helpful. I do not currently have anyone (other than my husband) who agrees she should be supported and left to develop at her own pace without being forced to "face her fears" to get past the seperation anxiety. We have not met any other unschoolers in our area, and our friends and relatives really just don't get it. It's hard for me to stay focused and do what feels natural to me as a mom sometimes. I second guess my gut feelings when I have a pediatrician referring us to a psychiatrist and relatives who think she may need medication. I've heard so much advice telling me I need to start leaving her more or even put her in school to help her overcome her fears. Your words are like a breath of fresh air. Unschooling has been such a wonderful journey for our family. Thank you to all of you who contribute to this list. You help so much.
--- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Jul 25, 2011, at 2:25 PM, gkcollins123 wrote:
>
> > Shortly after her 7th birthday, she began to display the seperation
> > anxiety that she still has to this day.
>
>
> While Kat didn't have separation anxiety, about that age she wouldn't
> go anywhere in the house alone. It lasted about until 11ish maybe.
>
> I'm guessing that at 7ish there's some mental shift in their
> understanding of how the world works and for some it can disrupt what
> they thought was a solid foundation. What helps most is giving them a
> safe, secure space to rebuild in their own time.
>
> > I read online that if these issues are not dealt with at an early
> > age, they can become very severe anxiety disorders in the teenage
> > years and beyond.
>
> And it's important to realize not a single "expert" has any clue how
> kids who are not made to go to school react. What they are undoubtedly
> comparing are kids whose fears are never listened to so know they
> can't stay home to kids whose parents occasionally let them stay home.
> The kids who know it's possible to stay home will obviously make a big
> fuss. Kids who know they can't, are less likely to.
>
> It's assume the kids who don't complain are doing better than the ones
> who beg and plead when in truth the kids who know they can't stay home
> have given up.
>
> What if those kids are taken to psychiatrists where their anxiety is
> not accepted as healthy. No matter how kind and caring the
> psychiatrist, not a single one will say "This is normal. It will
> pass." (They can't for two reasons: Their goal is to get the child to
> attend school. And second, they don't know any children who were
> allowed to stay home, were allowed to take dealing with a wider range
> of people on their own schedule.
>
> What choice do they have in how they see themselves? They *can't* see
> themselves as normal. No one will acknowledge that what they feel is
> okay.
>
> So, yes, of course, psychiatrists are going to say anxiety will get
> worse. They have no clue that being forced to go to school is the
> problem because they don't have a control group of kids who aren't
> forced to go to school to compare them to.
>
> Joyce
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Deb Lewis
***Shortly after her 7th birthday, she began to display the seperation anxiety that she still has to this day. ***
A child's understanding of the world is changing all the time. She may have thought of something for the first time and now it seems wiser to be with a trusted parent as much as possible. My niece used to like the rain. One day I went over there and it was raining and she said, "Be careful, it's dangerous out there!" When I asked what she meant she said that lightening might strike me. She had become aware of the possibility of lightening strike and now being out in the rain seems threatening.
"To this day" makes it seem like a lifetime but it's only been a year or so. After she turned seven, for some reason, she found being with you felt more secure than being without you. Now she's eight. A very little girl who is still growing and changing and learning about the world and herself.
***It began with her no longer wanting to spend the night with her friends or grandparents anymore ( two things she once loved to do)***
Do you mean that now that she doesn't want to do those things you think she should simply because she once enjoyed it? I understand you're submitting this as evidence of what you worry might be a growing problem but it is ok to quit sleepovers.
***Next, she stopped going to the neighbors house to play with her best friend.***
So, your house is more comfortable. Dylan stopped going to one friend's house because they yelled a lot there. She might have a very good reason for not feeling comfortable. I doubt you'd prefer she ignored her feelings in order to seem more "normal."
***So far, we have tried our best to support her and have not pressured her to do anything that makes her feel uneasy.***
You left her with your mom after she cried for a day at the thought of being left there. Maybe you couldn't find a way around that but I hope you can think of more options next time. That's a lot of stress and unhappiness for an eight year old.
***Anxiety runs in my family.***
I noticed. <g> I think you're over worried about something that's common to many kids. I don't think it would be good for her to see a psychiatrist. You have an eight year old who is happy to be with you and to play with friends at her own house. Try to change your own thinking about this, and enjoy a fun summer with your little girl.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
A child's understanding of the world is changing all the time. She may have thought of something for the first time and now it seems wiser to be with a trusted parent as much as possible. My niece used to like the rain. One day I went over there and it was raining and she said, "Be careful, it's dangerous out there!" When I asked what she meant she said that lightening might strike me. She had become aware of the possibility of lightening strike and now being out in the rain seems threatening.
"To this day" makes it seem like a lifetime but it's only been a year or so. After she turned seven, for some reason, she found being with you felt more secure than being without you. Now she's eight. A very little girl who is still growing and changing and learning about the world and herself.
***It began with her no longer wanting to spend the night with her friends or grandparents anymore ( two things she once loved to do)***
Do you mean that now that she doesn't want to do those things you think she should simply because she once enjoyed it? I understand you're submitting this as evidence of what you worry might be a growing problem but it is ok to quit sleepovers.
***Next, she stopped going to the neighbors house to play with her best friend.***
So, your house is more comfortable. Dylan stopped going to one friend's house because they yelled a lot there. She might have a very good reason for not feeling comfortable. I doubt you'd prefer she ignored her feelings in order to seem more "normal."
***So far, we have tried our best to support her and have not pressured her to do anything that makes her feel uneasy.***
You left her with your mom after she cried for a day at the thought of being left there. Maybe you couldn't find a way around that but I hope you can think of more options next time. That's a lot of stress and unhappiness for an eight year old.
***Anxiety runs in my family.***
I noticed. <g> I think you're over worried about something that's common to many kids. I don't think it would be good for her to see a psychiatrist. You have an eight year old who is happy to be with you and to play with friends at her own house. Try to change your own thinking about this, and enjoy a fun summer with your little girl.
Deb Lewis
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
----Since this has been going on for so long, I called the pediatrician, who recommended we see a psychiatrist. I just want to do the best thing for my daughter. -----
In addition to everything that's already been said, I want to point out that a psychiatrist's practice is based on prescribing medication (*psychologists* practice therapy--a psychiatrist gives and adjusts meds--appointments last less than 20 minutes).
If you think, even for a minute, that this could be the "best thing" for your daughter, I strongly suggest you research children and psychotropic drugs. Here's an article to start you off: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/02/business/02kids.html
and here: http://www.umdnj.edu/umcweb/marketing_and_communications/publications/umdnj_magazine/hstate/winter_spring01/features/feature03_psychotropic.htm
Furthermore, psychotropic drugs *are not* tested on children, yet they are prescribed to them. In fact, the majority of these drugs are only tested for 90 days, even in adults.
Drug your daughter so she becomes numb to her own (normal) feelings? Ask yourself if that could possibly be what's best for her.
Brie
In addition to everything that's already been said, I want to point out that a psychiatrist's practice is based on prescribing medication (*psychologists* practice therapy--a psychiatrist gives and adjusts meds--appointments last less than 20 minutes).
If you think, even for a minute, that this could be the "best thing" for your daughter, I strongly suggest you research children and psychotropic drugs. Here's an article to start you off: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/02/business/02kids.html
and here: http://www.umdnj.edu/umcweb/marketing_and_communications/publications/umdnj_magazine/hstate/winter_spring01/features/feature03_psychotropic.htm
Furthermore, psychotropic drugs *are not* tested on children, yet they are prescribed to them. In fact, the majority of these drugs are only tested for 90 days, even in adults.
Drug your daughter so she becomes numb to her own (normal) feelings? Ask yourself if that could possibly be what's best for her.
Brie
Sandra Dodd
-=-In addition to everything that's already been said, I want to point out that a psychiatrist's practice is based on prescribing medication (*psychologists* practice therapy--a psychiatrist gives and adjusts meds--appointments last less than 20 minutes). -=--
Not necessarily true, but more true now that it used to be. :-/
I know psychiatrists who do therapy (one in Maryland, one maybe retired in Santa Fe, one here in Albuquerque but it is "therapy" designed to see whether the drugs can be discontinued yet--more like an exam).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Not necessarily true, but more true now that it used to be. :-/
I know psychiatrists who do therapy (one in Maryland, one maybe retired in Santa Fe, one here in Albuquerque but it is "therapy" designed to see whether the drugs can be discontinued yet--more like an exam).
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
Sorry, the second link in my reply about children and psychiatric drugs wasn't the one I intended. Here is the right one (there are lots of links within the study to other studies):
http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/271/144/
Brie
http://www.ahrp.org/cms/content/view/271/144/
Brie
Sandra Dodd
I do agree that if a pediatrician referred a child to a psychologist instead of to a psychologist, the intent was to hook him straight to pharmaceuticals.
Sandra
Sandra
sheeboo2
-=-In addition to everything that's already been said, I want to point out that a psychiatrist's practice is based on prescribing medication (*psychologists* practice therapy--a psychiatrist gives and adjusts meds--appointments last less than 20 minutes). -=--
From the New York Times, "Talk Doesn't Pay, So Psychiatry Turns Instead to Drug Therapy"
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/health/policy/06doctors.html?pagewanted=all
Brie
>>>>>>>Not necessarily true, but more true now that it used to be. :-/<<<<<<<<Things have changed a lot in the past 15 years. In the US, at least, most insurance companies won't cover anything beyond a 20 minute visit (with a psychiatrist). Here's a sad, and true, look at what you'll likely be getting if you take your daughter to a psychiatrist:
From the New York Times, "Talk Doesn't Pay, So Psychiatry Turns Instead to Drug Therapy"
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/06/health/policy/06doctors.html?pagewanted=all
Brie
Jessica Cleary
I agree with the others that sending your daughter to a psychiatrist is not
a good move. I'm not sure why a pediatrician would recommend that over a
psychologist (if they did think she did need to see someone). In
psychology, the current intervention of choice is cognitive-behavioural
therapy with an emphasis on exposure (ie facing her fears). However there
are psychologists that don't practice this type of therapy and I guess it
would be your job to find one who's philosophies are more aligned with your
own. It could just be helpful to talk to someone yourself for knows a lot
about anxiety and what you can do to help your daughter (rather than sending
her to someone).
Just like you read and post to this forum to get advice
from knowledgeable people in the unschooling area, if you feel it would be
best for you then why not speak to someone who has experience and expertise
in anxiety?
I don't think it's fair for any of us to say that you are overreacting as
only you know what your daughter is like and you can hardly sum it all up in
a couple of paragraphs. Obviously it has got to a point where you have
decided to reach out for some help.
I wouldn't be satisfied with thinking well, this is how it is, she might
just be like this and we'll see what happens even if it takes years. Being
crippled by anxiety isn't really a great way to live. But there are things
that can be done to help without sending your daughter to a professional if
you don't want to do that. I'd start with reading up on it. Maybe look into
emotion coaching (characterised by empathy, empowerment, helping your
daughter learn to solve her own problems).
Take care,
Jess
a good move. I'm not sure why a pediatrician would recommend that over a
psychologist (if they did think she did need to see someone). In
psychology, the current intervention of choice is cognitive-behavioural
therapy with an emphasis on exposure (ie facing her fears). However there
are psychologists that don't practice this type of therapy and I guess it
would be your job to find one who's philosophies are more aligned with your
own. It could just be helpful to talk to someone yourself for knows a lot
about anxiety and what you can do to help your daughter (rather than sending
her to someone).
Just like you read and post to this forum to get advice
from knowledgeable people in the unschooling area, if you feel it would be
best for you then why not speak to someone who has experience and expertise
in anxiety?
I don't think it's fair for any of us to say that you are overreacting as
only you know what your daughter is like and you can hardly sum it all up in
a couple of paragraphs. Obviously it has got to a point where you have
decided to reach out for some help.
I wouldn't be satisfied with thinking well, this is how it is, she might
just be like this and we'll see what happens even if it takes years. Being
crippled by anxiety isn't really a great way to live. But there are things
that can be done to help without sending your daughter to a professional if
you don't want to do that. I'd start with reading up on it. Maybe look into
emotion coaching (characterised by empathy, empowerment, helping your
daughter learn to solve her own problems).
Take care,
Jess
On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 10:39 AM, gkcollins123 <gkcollins123@...>wrote:
> **
>
>
> Thank you so much to all who have replied so far. I knew that posting here
> would be so helpful. I do not currently have anyone (other than my husband)
> who agrees she should be supported and left to develop at her own pace
> without being forced to "face her fears" to get past the seperation anxiety.
> We have not met any other unschoolers in our area, and our friends and
> relatives really just don't get it. It's hard for me to stay focused and do
> what feels natural to me as a mom sometimes. I second guess my gut feelings
> when I have a pediatrician referring us to a psychiatrist and relatives who
> think she may need medication. I've heard so much advice telling me I need
> to start leaving her more or even put her in school to help her overcome her
> fears. Your words are like a breath of fresh air. Unschooling has been such
> a wonderful journey for our family. Thank you to all of you who contribute
> to this list. You help so much.
>
> --- In [email protected], Joyce Fetteroll <jfetteroll@...>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Jul 25, 2011, at 2:25 PM, gkcollins123 wrote:
> >
> > > Shortly after her 7th birthday, she began to display the seperation
> > > anxiety that she still has to this day.
> >
> >
> > While Kat didn't have separation anxiety, about that age she wouldn't
> > go anywhere in the house alone. It lasted about until 11ish maybe.
> >
> > I'm guessing that at 7ish there's some mental shift in their
> > understanding of how the world works and for some it can disrupt what
> > they thought was a solid foundation. What helps most is giving them a
> > safe, secure space to rebuild in their own time.
> >
> > > I read online that if these issues are not dealt with at an early
> > > age, they can become very severe anxiety disorders in the teenage
> > > years and beyond.
> >
> > And it's important to realize not a single "expert" has any clue how
> > kids who are not made to go to school react. What they are undoubtedly
> > comparing are kids whose fears are never listened to so know they
> > can't stay home to kids whose parents occasionally let them stay home.
> > The kids who know it's possible to stay home will obviously make a big
> > fuss. Kids who know they can't, are less likely to.
> >
> > It's assume the kids who don't complain are doing better than the ones
> > who beg and plead when in truth the kids who know they can't stay home
> > have given up.
> >
> > What if those kids are taken to psychiatrists where their anxiety is
> > not accepted as healthy. No matter how kind and caring the
> > psychiatrist, not a single one will say "This is normal. It will
> > pass." (They can't for two reasons: Their goal is to get the child to
> > attend school. And second, they don't know any children who were
> > allowed to stay home, were allowed to take dealing with a wider range
> > of people on their own schedule.
> >
> > What choice do they have in how they see themselves? They *can't* see
> > themselves as normal. No one will acknowledge that what they feel is
> > okay.
> >
> > So, yes, of course, psychiatrists are going to say anxiety will get
> > worse. They have no clue that being forced to go to school is the
> > problem because they don't have a control group of kids who aren't
> > forced to go to school to compare them to.
> >
> > Joyce
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
sheeboo2
---I wouldn't be satisfied with thinking well, this is how it is, she might
just be like this and we'll see what happens even if it takes years. Being
crippled by anxiety isn't really a great way to live.-----
I honestly didn't get, from mom's post, that her daughter is "crippled" by anxiety. That's a dangerous leap, I think, to pathologize a normal childhood feeling into a deficiency, a handicap.
She sounds like a child who happily plays with others, leaves the house regularly, and simply feels more comfortable when mom is near. Because the majority of children her age are forced to spend 5+ hours a day away from home, doesn't make it normal. It doesn't make accepting it (the child, that is) natural, either.
My brother was truly crippled with anxiety for a years. He was afraid, even, to breath. His anxiety was an impairment and there was rarely a moment in a day when he wasn't feeling it. That sounds nothing at all like what the OP described.
Feeling anxious when separated from mom is normal, although school culture would have you believe otherwise.
-----Just like you read and post to this forum to get advice
from knowledgeable people in the unschooling area, if you feel it would be
best for you then why not speak to someone who has experience and expertise
in anxiety?
I don't think it's fair for any of us to say that you are overreacting as
only you know what your daughter is like and you can hardly sum it all up in
a couple of paragraphs. Obviously it has got to a point where you have
decided to reach out for some help.-------
Maybe you didn't read mom's follow up post, where she wrote:
--- It's hard for me to stay focused and do what feels natural to me
as a mom sometimes. I second guess my gut feelings when I have a pediatrician
referring us to a psychiatrist and relatives who think she may need medication.
I've heard so much advice telling me I need to start leaving her more or even
put her in school to help her overcome her fears. Your words are like a breath
of fresh air. ------
Being with her daughter feels *natural* to mom! Her "gut feelings" are that it's okay for her daughter to want her close-by. It's the rest of the (schooled) world that thinks these are feelings that need to be trained or medicated away.
Often, this list is one of the only places a parent can come for words that are different than they'll hear any where else children and parenting are discussed. Please don't taint that "breath of fresh air" with fear mongering about debilitating mental illness for what is a very common childhood experience. Are you aware that the majority of school avoidance cases start when a child is 7 or 8? There's a good reason for that--it is perfectly normal to still want to be with your parents at that age!
----- But there are things that can be done to help without sending your daughter to a professional if you don't want to do that. I'd start with reading up on it. Maybe look into
emotion coaching (characterized by empathy, empowerment, helping your
daughter learn to solve her own problems------
The problem with Emotional Coaching, as I see it, is that it posits one set of emotional responses as more appropriate than others, in order to create a better functioning person. But, the question I ask is: who defines functional? better? appropriate? According to which/whose norms and standards?
---helping your daughter learn to solve her own problems----
Part of the beauty of unschooling, for me, is that our family acts as a team. While I've done a lot to help my daughter feel empowered, I hope to always be trusted enough that if she wants or needs help solving problems, she'll come to me. She's seven, eight next month, and I am honored that she comes to me for help when she needs it.
I don't feel that I need to train her to be self-suficient. She's learning that, just as she's learning everything else: in her own time, in her own way, because she wants to--because it is meaningful to her--not because I think it's time for that lesson.
Brie
(whose daughter hasn't gone to the bathroom by herself in almost a year, and whose father, a psychologist, thinks this is perfectly normal--just something that is typically beat out of children by schooling)
just be like this and we'll see what happens even if it takes years. Being
crippled by anxiety isn't really a great way to live.-----
I honestly didn't get, from mom's post, that her daughter is "crippled" by anxiety. That's a dangerous leap, I think, to pathologize a normal childhood feeling into a deficiency, a handicap.
She sounds like a child who happily plays with others, leaves the house regularly, and simply feels more comfortable when mom is near. Because the majority of children her age are forced to spend 5+ hours a day away from home, doesn't make it normal. It doesn't make accepting it (the child, that is) natural, either.
My brother was truly crippled with anxiety for a years. He was afraid, even, to breath. His anxiety was an impairment and there was rarely a moment in a day when he wasn't feeling it. That sounds nothing at all like what the OP described.
Feeling anxious when separated from mom is normal, although school culture would have you believe otherwise.
-----Just like you read and post to this forum to get advice
from knowledgeable people in the unschooling area, if you feel it would be
best for you then why not speak to someone who has experience and expertise
in anxiety?
I don't think it's fair for any of us to say that you are overreacting as
only you know what your daughter is like and you can hardly sum it all up in
a couple of paragraphs. Obviously it has got to a point where you have
decided to reach out for some help.-------
Maybe you didn't read mom's follow up post, where she wrote:
--- It's hard for me to stay focused and do what feels natural to me
as a mom sometimes. I second guess my gut feelings when I have a pediatrician
referring us to a psychiatrist and relatives who think she may need medication.
I've heard so much advice telling me I need to start leaving her more or even
put her in school to help her overcome her fears. Your words are like a breath
of fresh air. ------
Being with her daughter feels *natural* to mom! Her "gut feelings" are that it's okay for her daughter to want her close-by. It's the rest of the (schooled) world that thinks these are feelings that need to be trained or medicated away.
Often, this list is one of the only places a parent can come for words that are different than they'll hear any where else children and parenting are discussed. Please don't taint that "breath of fresh air" with fear mongering about debilitating mental illness for what is a very common childhood experience. Are you aware that the majority of school avoidance cases start when a child is 7 or 8? There's a good reason for that--it is perfectly normal to still want to be with your parents at that age!
----- But there are things that can be done to help without sending your daughter to a professional if you don't want to do that. I'd start with reading up on it. Maybe look into
emotion coaching (characterized by empathy, empowerment, helping your
daughter learn to solve her own problems------
The problem with Emotional Coaching, as I see it, is that it posits one set of emotional responses as more appropriate than others, in order to create a better functioning person. But, the question I ask is: who defines functional? better? appropriate? According to which/whose norms and standards?
---helping your daughter learn to solve her own problems----
Part of the beauty of unschooling, for me, is that our family acts as a team. While I've done a lot to help my daughter feel empowered, I hope to always be trusted enough that if she wants or needs help solving problems, she'll come to me. She's seven, eight next month, and I am honored that she comes to me for help when she needs it.
I don't feel that I need to train her to be self-suficient. She's learning that, just as she's learning everything else: in her own time, in her own way, because she wants to--because it is meaningful to her--not because I think it's time for that lesson.
Brie
(whose daughter hasn't gone to the bathroom by herself in almost a year, and whose father, a psychologist, thinks this is perfectly normal--just something that is typically beat out of children by schooling)
Sandra Dodd
-=-I don't think it's fair for any of us to say that you are overreacting as
only you know what your daughter is like and you can hardly sum it all up in
a couple of paragraphs. Obviously it has got to a point where you have
decided to reach out for some help.-=-
Please don't speak for "any of us" or for the group. there are people here who have unschooled for 12, 15, 20 years, and who have been involved in these kinds of discussions that long. All of them have had eight year olds, many of them had children who "would have been diagnosed" and they went other directions.
-=- you can hardly sum it all up in a couple of paragraphs.-=-
People can reveal things they didn't even realize about themselves in one single sentence. It can be life-changing when others notice and point that out.
-=-I wouldn't be satisfied with thinking well, this is how it is, she might
just be like this and we'll see what happens even if it takes years. Being
crippled by anxiety isn't really a great way to live.-=-
Her daughter is not crippled by anxiety. It sounded much more like the mom was projecting out into a crippling fantasy future, which was affecting her judgment today. The daughter just wants to stay home. That is NOT a big deal for a child her age.
-=-I wouldn't be satisfied with thinking well, this is how it is, she might just be like this-=-
That IS how it is. She IS just like that right now. For unschooling to work, parents need to stop looking into the future and live more in the moment with their real child. BEING with a child is being where the child is, emotionally and spiritually and physically and musically and artistically. Seeing where the child *is* rather than seeing a thousand or even a dozen places she is not.
-=-Maybe look into emotion coaching (characterised by empathy, empowerment, helping your
daughter learn to solve her own problems).-=-
Unschooling as discussed on this list involves all of those things. Sending a child to an "emotion coach" is still telling her (and putting money down to affirm it) that there is something wrong with her, that she is not whole, that the parents will like her more if she changes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
only you know what your daughter is like and you can hardly sum it all up in
a couple of paragraphs. Obviously it has got to a point where you have
decided to reach out for some help.-=-
Please don't speak for "any of us" or for the group. there are people here who have unschooled for 12, 15, 20 years, and who have been involved in these kinds of discussions that long. All of them have had eight year olds, many of them had children who "would have been diagnosed" and they went other directions.
-=- you can hardly sum it all up in a couple of paragraphs.-=-
People can reveal things they didn't even realize about themselves in one single sentence. It can be life-changing when others notice and point that out.
-=-I wouldn't be satisfied with thinking well, this is how it is, she might
just be like this and we'll see what happens even if it takes years. Being
crippled by anxiety isn't really a great way to live.-=-
Her daughter is not crippled by anxiety. It sounded much more like the mom was projecting out into a crippling fantasy future, which was affecting her judgment today. The daughter just wants to stay home. That is NOT a big deal for a child her age.
-=-I wouldn't be satisfied with thinking well, this is how it is, she might just be like this-=-
That IS how it is. She IS just like that right now. For unschooling to work, parents need to stop looking into the future and live more in the moment with their real child. BEING with a child is being where the child is, emotionally and spiritually and physically and musically and artistically. Seeing where the child *is* rather than seeing a thousand or even a dozen places she is not.
-=-Maybe look into emotion coaching (characterised by empathy, empowerment, helping your
daughter learn to solve her own problems).-=-
Unschooling as discussed on this list involves all of those things. Sending a child to an "emotion coach" is still telling her (and putting money down to affirm it) that there is something wrong with her, that she is not whole, that the parents will like her more if she changes.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I second guess my gut feelings when I have a pediatrician referring us to a psychiatrist and relatives who think she may need medication. I've heard so much advice telling me I need to start leaving her more or even put her in school to help her overcome her fears. Your words are like a breath of fresh air.***
The very act of being your child's advocate will help empower you in situations of doubt!
If you can look at your child's doctor and see them as a person with a certain set of knowledge that doesn't mesh with your set of knowledge, you can inform them. You don't need to be scared or anxious about a child who is scared and anxious. People are sometimes scared or anxious, especially when there is something at stake, or when there is discomfort. The very best thing to do in any situation that involves fear and anxiety, is to be calm and peaceful, so that you can think through things. That's true even in emergency situations where someone has been very injured physically. What you are dealing with isn't that, so practice being calm and peaceful in the absence of emergency.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The very act of being your child's advocate will help empower you in situations of doubt!
If you can look at your child's doctor and see them as a person with a certain set of knowledge that doesn't mesh with your set of knowledge, you can inform them. You don't need to be scared or anxious about a child who is scared and anxious. People are sometimes scared or anxious, especially when there is something at stake, or when there is discomfort. The very best thing to do in any situation that involves fear and anxiety, is to be calm and peaceful, so that you can think through things. That's true even in emergency situations where someone has been very injured physically. What you are dealing with isn't that, so practice being calm and peaceful in the absence of emergency.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
La la
I would like to add another dimension to this discussion. I would like
to speak from my perspective, a very attached parent, currently
invested in homeschooling/unschooling, and a mental health therapist.
While there has been an important distinction made here re: psychiatry
v. therapy, please understand that there are mental health therapists
who specialize in working with children and families from their own
goals (such as myself). A therapist might help your child to feel less
scared of situations that she would like to pursue (such as art
class), or attend part of a class, or even think about it, without
disrespecting the child as an individual, her own limits, and maybe
even help her understand and communicate what her fears are like to
her parents. (Maybe she didn't know how to communicate to her mom and
bestfriend that she didn't actually want to go to class). At any rate,
as a therapist I would use art and play therapy to explore these
issues with your child, and provide a consistent, reflective adult
that is not a parent or family member (and thus, to the child, not
invested in the outcome). I am not saying that your daughter needs
mental health therapy, but as a therapist, I would say that a good
therapist can be beneficial to EVERYONE in their various processes
through life.
Lena
to speak from my perspective, a very attached parent, currently
invested in homeschooling/unschooling, and a mental health therapist.
While there has been an important distinction made here re: psychiatry
v. therapy, please understand that there are mental health therapists
who specialize in working with children and families from their own
goals (such as myself). A therapist might help your child to feel less
scared of situations that she would like to pursue (such as art
class), or attend part of a class, or even think about it, without
disrespecting the child as an individual, her own limits, and maybe
even help her understand and communicate what her fears are like to
her parents. (Maybe she didn't know how to communicate to her mom and
bestfriend that she didn't actually want to go to class). At any rate,
as a therapist I would use art and play therapy to explore these
issues with your child, and provide a consistent, reflective adult
that is not a parent or family member (and thus, to the child, not
invested in the outcome). I am not saying that your daughter needs
mental health therapy, but as a therapist, I would say that a good
therapist can be beneficial to EVERYONE in their various processes
through life.
Lena
Sandra Dodd
-=-I am not saying that your daughter needs
mental health therapy, but as a therapist, I would say that a good
therapist can be beneficial to EVERYONE in their various processes
through life.-=-
I agree with that in the case in which the client wants to go to a therapist for her own reasons, and where the family or others involved are calm and supportive about the therapy. Even if those factors are in place, though, it can harm the relationships and understandings that lead to unschooling when a family considers that a child is abnormal and wants her fixed, and all she wants to do is hang out with her parents a while more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
mental health therapy, but as a therapist, I would say that a good
therapist can be beneficial to EVERYONE in their various processes
through life.-=-
I agree with that in the case in which the client wants to go to a therapist for her own reasons, and where the family or others involved are calm and supportive about the therapy. Even if those factors are in place, though, it can harm the relationships and understandings that lead to unschooling when a family considers that a child is abnormal and wants her fixed, and all she wants to do is hang out with her parents a while more.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
fauxbee
***Anxiety runs in my family.***
This is the key to your issue. Your daughters experience is one thing, but your reaction to it is another likely based upon the anxiety running in your family.
Remember to breathe and that what is at one moment isn't always in the next moment.
This is the key to your issue. Your daughters experience is one thing, but your reaction to it is another likely based upon the anxiety running in your family.
Remember to breathe and that what is at one moment isn't always in the next moment.
gkcollins123
I definitely think that I was letting the fact that I have struggled with anxiety in the past cloud my judgement regarding how to respond to my daughter's separation anxiety. We've decided against the psychiatrist. Really, after reading all of your input and giving it some more thought, I cannot believe I let that pediatrician's advice get me so worked up. My daughter is an amazing young lady. As my husband says, I should be flattered that she chooses to spend her time with me! At this point in my daughter's life, she is able to live fully and happily as long as I'm around. Fortunately, I am able to be with her almost always. I'm not going to worry about the distant future, but instead, just focus on her now just the way she is. Thanks for the reassurance.
--- In [email protected], "fauxbee" <phoebe.james.dom@...> wrote:
>
> ***Anxiety runs in my family.***
>
> This is the key to your issue. Your daughters experience is one thing, but your reaction to it is another likely based upon the anxiety running in your family.
>
> Remember to breathe and that what is at one moment isn't always in the next moment.
>
delphini004
***** - "For unschooling to work,
parents need to stop looking into the future and live more in the moment with
their real child. BEING with a child is being where the child is, emotionally
and spiritually and physically and musically and artistically. Seeing where the
child *is* rather than seeing a thousand or even a dozen places she is not." _ *****
This is all I have to remember every minute of my life, thanks ! I think it would be nice to have this paragraph on your blog Sandra. But, maybe it is not the good place to tell it... if so, just tell me.
Edith
parents need to stop looking into the future and live more in the moment with
their real child. BEING with a child is being where the child is, emotionally
and spiritually and physically and musically and artistically. Seeing where the
child *is* rather than seeing a thousand or even a dozen places she is not." _ *****
This is all I have to remember every minute of my life, thanks ! I think it would be nice to have this paragraph on your blog Sandra. But, maybe it is not the good place to tell it... if so, just tell me.
Edith
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-I don't think it's fair for any of us to say that you are overreacting as
> only you know what your daughter is like and you can hardly sum it all up in
> a couple of paragraphs. Obviously it has got to a point where you have
> decided to reach out for some help.-=-
>
> Please don't speak for "any of us" or for the group. there are people here who have unschooled for 12, 15, 20 years, and who have been involved in these kinds of discussions that long. All of them have had eight year olds, many of them had children who "would have been diagnosed" and they went other directions.
>
> -=- you can hardly sum it all up in a couple of paragraphs.-=-
>
> People can reveal things they didn't even realize about themselves in one single sentence. It can be life-changing when others notice and point that out.
>
> -=-I wouldn't be satisfied with thinking well, this is how it is, she might
> just be like this and we'll see what happens even if it takes years. Being
> crippled by anxiety isn't really a great way to live.-=-
>
> Her daughter is not crippled by anxiety. It sounded much more like the mom was projecting out into a crippling fantasy future, which was affecting her judgment today. The daughter just wants to stay home. That is NOT a big deal for a child her age.
>
> -=-I wouldn't be satisfied with thinking well, this is how it is, she might just be like this-=-
>
> That IS how it is. She IS just like that right now. For unschooling to work, parents need to stop looking into the future and live more in the moment with their real child. BEING with a child is being where the child is, emotionally and spiritually and physically and musically and artistically. Seeing where the child *is* rather than seeing a thousand or even a dozen places she is not.
>
> -=-Maybe look into emotion coaching (characterised by empathy, empowerment, helping your
> daughter learn to solve her own problems).-=-
>
> Unschooling as discussed on this list involves all of those things. Sending a child to an "emotion coach" is still telling her (and putting money down to affirm it) that there is something wrong with her, that she is not whole, that the parents will like her more if she changes.
>
> Sandra
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
Sandra Dodd
-=-***** - "For unschooling to work,
parents need to stop looking into the future and live more in the moment with
their real child. BEING with a child is being where the child is, emotionally
and spiritually and physically and musically and artistically. Seeing where the
child *is* rather than seeing a thousand or even a dozen places she is not." _ *****
-=-This is all I have to remember every minute of my life, thanks ! I think it would be nice to have this paragraph on your blog Sandra. But, maybe it is not the good place to tell it... if so, just tell me.-=-
Thanks.
I can put it on http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
parents need to stop looking into the future and live more in the moment with
their real child. BEING with a child is being where the child is, emotionally
and spiritually and physically and musically and artistically. Seeing where the
child *is* rather than seeing a thousand or even a dozen places she is not." _ *****
-=-This is all I have to remember every minute of my life, thanks ! I think it would be nice to have this paragraph on your blog Sandra. But, maybe it is not the good place to tell it... if so, just tell me.-=-
Thanks.
I can put it on http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
delphini004
Yes, on "Just add light and stir" is a very good idea.
The fact that I was educated about my future made me a person who rarely lived in the moment, all my thoughts and actions were forward looking. In doing so, I became a mother who acted with my children thinking about their future rather than live with them in the moment. It is so powerful that bad model, and so important to stop it to enjoy life ... Sandra thank you again for putting into words this simple and essential advice.
Edith
The fact that I was educated about my future made me a person who rarely lived in the moment, all my thoughts and actions were forward looking. In doing so, I became a mother who acted with my children thinking about their future rather than live with them in the moment. It is so powerful that bad model, and so important to stop it to enjoy life ... Sandra thank you again for putting into words this simple and essential advice.
Edith
--- In [email protected], Sandra Dodd <Sandra@...> wrote:
>
> -=-***** - "For unschooling to work,
> parents need to stop looking into the future and live more in the moment with
> their real child. BEING with a child is being where the child is, emotionally
> and spiritually and physically and musically and artistically. Seeing where the
> child *is* rather than seeing a thousand or even a dozen places she is not." _ *****
>
> -=-This is all I have to remember every minute of my life, thanks ! I think it would be nice to have this paragraph on your blog Sandra. But, maybe it is not the good place to tell it... if so, just tell me.-=-
>
> Thanks.
>
> I can put it on http://justaddlightandstir.blogspot.com
>
> Sandra
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>