KT

>
>
>...I
>don't like 'educational stuff' like microscopes and math manipulatives.....if
>it becomes appropriate for our family to get something, we try to....NOT bec.
>we are trying to teach something but bec. ds wants to use a microscope just
>like he'd like more characters for his 'doll collection' or more Pokemon
>cards....
>

My mother ordered something by mail and ended up with "2 free gifts".
One was a box of plastic dress-up shoes and a tiara. The other was a
cheap plastic microscope and lots of accessories that nonetheless ended
up working just fine. She gave the microscope to Will and the dress-ups
to me to pass along to a toddler I know.

I can't remember any time in school that I ever peered into a microscope
in class. I don't remember ever using the bunsen burners or anything
else like "lab equipment". I opted out of biology and the other science
classes in high school. We look in those wide-lensed microscopes all
the time at museums, at pre-selected specimens, though. I've never
thought it necessary to actually buy a good microscope like some
homeschoolers.

But....that little cheapo 300x/600/1200x microscope that was free with a
mail order has been one of the most interesting things Will has come
across in a long time. He spent an entire day running in and out of the
house and putting things he'd found on slides to view them. I never
gave him any input on how to use it, except to put the batteries in. He
figured out all on his own, without reading directions since he's on a
bit of a reading strike these days, how to put the specimen on the slide
and that a drop of water helps and the thinner the specimen the better.

I like having lots of books and paper and stuff. I can't throw anything
away, really. The motto of the packrat is "you never know when
something is going to come in handy". ;)

Tuck

jsutfran

> My mother ordered something by mail and ended up with "2 free
gifts".
>
> But....that little cheapo 300x/600/1200x microscope that was free
with a
> mail order has been one of the most interesting things Will has
come
> across in a long time. >
> Tuck

Hi Tuck -
What a great story! How appropriate that that microscope end up in
Will's hands!

Could it be that that microscope will be a starting point for Will
whereas it would sit on a shelf in another home? Could it be that it
came to Will in a way other than coincidence?

If I had had an opportunity for a microscope, I probably would have
taken it too....I wonder what opportunities I've rejected, tho, bec.
of feeling overwhelmed by the amount of stuffs in our house
already....??? I wonder what kids in my community would be inspired
by the Brio train set that sits unused here....? perhaps the whole
universe needs to do a shuffling of stuffs so they get into the right
hands! So that I am open for our 'microscope' and others get their
object for inspiration.....Who knows?!

Just some ideas!
Jane

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/16/02 2:41:12 AM Central Daylight Time,
[email protected] writes:

<< . I don't like to get
rid of books. I even experience pain when returning
library books......

To me, Not Doing is NOT DOING....for a while....sort
of like looking at the negative light, for while, to
see the different patterns. Not a permanent, all the
time thing. I DO lots, too. >>


YES! Same here. Not doing is definitely on our list of "things to do"....my
ds laid on the floor of his room for about an hour yesterday, seemingly
staring at the ceiling. I'm quite sure that was a very productive hour of
daydreaming for him.
But I would never, ever get rid of materials be they "educational" or not.
Unless my children wanted to for some good reason.....like making money. Even
then, I ask them to consider the younger ones coming up that may want to
dabble with it.
Just because we have science kits, a microscope, project books and yes, even
workbooks....does not mean I ever make my kids use them.
I feel it is another part of the world I have given them access to by having
these things available. They are no less or more important than other things
I give them access to.
Just because one person in the house is the type that doesn't want to have
books around, doesn't mean the others feel the same way.
I would be careful to not glean entirely too many opportunities out the door!!
I think an unschooling household should be a haven for exploration. Books,
weird items, animal parts etc.....(again, just my opinion here).
We have a very small house but manage to have some interesting bins including
mukluks, skulls, shells, nests and other nature related items, crafty items
in another like bottled ink, dye, plaster and buttons ( not to mention the
collection of bins that have pens, paint, crayons etc....) We have bins with
math manipulatives and games, some with alphabet manipulatives, cookie
cutters ( an amazing collection), drawing tools............I could go on, the
point is, I'd never get rid of something just because it is intended as
"educational" material.
I don't necessarily think it's any more educational than other materials we
have around, but they are all valid objects to dabble with and use.
I volunteer to relieve anyone of their materials or books...just send them
this way!!! I won't even charge for this service. LOL

Ren

Suzanna and Darrell

> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 21:32:01 -0700
> From: Debbie Bartle <rb1188@...>
> Subject: Re: reluctant husband
>
> The trick here is to show him that learning
> doesn't have to come from schoolbooks (in fact,
> the best learning comes from anything *but*
> schoolbooks). Keep a learning log for a while,
> and show it to him when he asks. Jot down
> discussions, observations, questions asked and
> answered, explanations given, projects and
> experiments, nature walks, anything you can
> think of during the day that demonstrates
> learning. It will amaze you, and hopefully
> convince him.

I have done that, and he is impressed, but then he comes back with
statements like, "They need to learn their math." "What about algebra?"
"What about history?" etc. And right now, we are getting ready to move, so
we are not going on nature walks, or working on projects, and he keeps
saying that the kids need to do their school work everyday. If I am busy,
the kids only want to watch TV or play video games. If my time is freed up,
they love to do projects, read with me, go places, have discussions, etc. My
husband's pestering about the neccessity of "school work" on "school days"
has gotten to the point that my youngest son, age 11, will absolutely refuse
to do anything remotely "educational" if it is not a school day for the
public school kids. Whereas he didn't used to care what day it was, if he
was curious about something he would ask me to help him look it up, find
more info at the library, or do a project with him. But now when he asks me
something on a non-"school" day, and I say something like, "lets go look it
up", he will say, "no way! Today isn't a school day!"

>
> My husband was against homeschooling at first,
> but agreed to let me try it for summer school.

My husband wasn't against starting homeschool. Weve been doing it for about
2 years now for my two youngest son's ages 11 and 13 1/2. He just thinks we
need to do "school" type learning every "school day". I have had a problem
with his attitude that they only need to learn on school days, and can only
learn by doing "school stuff", even before I started leaning towards
unschooling. I have had the kids do "school" at home, but if they just
weren't in the mood, or if I didn't have time to watch over them to make
sure they did it, I wouldn't push it. But I know that they learned things on
those days. But my husband would get upset and say that they were going to
fall to far behind, and maybe we should put them back in public school
because they weren't accomplishing enough at home. My mother-in-law says
that I have failed at "schooling" the boys, and it will be to there
"ruination". Unfortunately, she has a lot of influence on my husband.

>We started with school at home, but
> gradually went more and more toward unschooling
> as I read John Holt's works and met other
> unschoolers.

I guess I need to get some of Holt's books. But how did you convince your dh
that unschooling was the way to go? He thinks that if they are not
intentionally being taught specific things, that they are not getting an
education. I doubt that I could get my husband to read any books. I have
tried before; he will start them but he doesn't usually get far. He doesn't
like to read. He still has yet to make it all the way through an algebra
course. He says that the reason he wants me to do "school" schooling with
them is because he doesn't want them to wind up like him.

>My son is now 18 and finishing
> his sophomore year of college, and my 17-year-
> old daughter is studying for the CHSPE,
> volunteering at the local library, and drawing
> incessantly. I see them as proof that
> unschooling works.
>
> Debbie
>

I wish I could have a crystal ball so that I could show my husband that the
kids are not going to be ruined if they don't do work out of a math book
everyday. And that they could be doing things like your kids are now. (By
the way, what is the CHSPE?)

Suzanna

Elizabeth Hill

Suzanna and Darrell wrote:

>
>
> I have done that, and he is impressed, but then he comes back with
> statements like, "They need to learn their math." "What about
> algebra?"
> "What about history?" etc. And right now, we are getting ready to
> move, so
> we are not going on nature walks, or working on projects, and he keeps
>
> saying that the kids need to do their school work everyday. If I am
> busy,
> the kids only want to watch TV or play video games. If my time is
> freed up,
> they love to do projects, read with me, go places, have discussions,
> etc.

Maybe you could schedule a school "vacation" now, because of how busy
you are, and tell your husband you will be doing more learning stuff
during the summer months.

This doesn't really address his skepticism about unschooling, but it
buys you time, and it's probably true.

Betsy


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/16/02 11:56:19 AM, truealaskans@... writes:

<< He thinks that if they are not
intentionally being taught specific things, that they are not getting an
education. >>

He's right.

This is not just a matter of language, but of perception and CONception.

"Education" is what one person does to another. It's a trasitive verb--the
subject educates the object.

If you change the language you use to discuss your children's learning at
home, it will gradually change the way you both see what you are doing.

As long as you, too, use the word "education" your husband will be right.

So instead of trying to show him how they can get an education without being
taught (which they technically cannot), discuss how unschooled teens have
learned all the elements that 'educated' children learn, plus many more, in
natural, non-threatening ways that never seem like "school work" because they
aren't.

The closest you'll get to a crystal ball is his meeting other unschooling
families, and maybe talking to some really confident dads. The best
opportunity for that might be a conference where unschoolers are. But if
there are some local families, maybe you could host a barbecue or something
to get some families in one place.


Sandra

Tia Leschke

>My
>husband's pestering about the neccessity of "school work" on "school days"
>has gotten to the point that my youngest son, age 11, will absolutely refuse
>to do anything remotely "educational" if it is not a school day for the
>public school kids. Whereas he didn't used to care what day it was, if he
>was curious about something he would ask me to help him look it up, find
>more info at the library, or do a project with him. But now when he asks me
>something on a non-"school" day, and I say something like, "lets go look it
>up", he will say, "no way! Today isn't a school day!"

Have you pointed this out to your husband and asked if that was his
intent? <g>
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Debbie Bartle

The CHSPE is the California High School
Proficiency Exam. A passing score on this test
is equivalent to a high school diploma. While
I don't necessarily agree with the test, it
sure beats 13 years of public school.

I didn't have to convince my husband that
unschooling was the right way. We got into it
very gradually, and he could see that the kids
were learning a lot. He never asked to see
their schoolwork, but he would ask them what
they did in school, at least at first. After a
while, that changed to "What did you do today?"

I think you should have a heart-to-heart talk
with your husband. Ask him what his concerns
are, and try to be understanding, even if you
disagree. Make sure he knows that you want
your children to grow up believing that
learning is a natural part of life, and not
just something you do in school. As far as the
algebra and history are concerned, they'll
learn it if they need to. I took history in
school, and got good grades in it, but never
really learned it. My daughter resisted math
for years, but when she found out how much she
needs to know for the CHSPE she started
studying it in earnest. If children are
encouraged to explore their interests, they'll
learn things you could never teach them if you
tried. I woke up one morning about 8 years ago
to find my kids poring over the encyclopedias,
studying and writing down all the old alphabets
they could find. I imagine that if I had made
that an assignment it would have been met with
great resistance.

Debbie

homeschoolmd

We got a microscope for Christmas and have not used it much. I know
if I got interested and started putting lots of things under it the
kids would be interested in looking. For now I'm not there. I've
got some other stuff going on.

I still need your help with unschooling. My kids seem so focused on
playing the computer. They are addicted to "The Sims". It is a very
mentally stimulating game but prevents exposure to other things. It
seems like as soon as I am done introducing them to something, they
go back to playing on the computer.

I've told them I thought it was a better idea to balance their use of
the computer to looking for other interesting things on it as well.
Each time they do this, they find a good site that introduces them to
something new. The problem is I have to always prod and poke them a
little to move in this direction. Is this what unschooling should be?

With the weather as beautiful as it is and springtime in full swing
if I were to be following my interests I would be out gardening for
hours every day. If I did that, the kids would sit inside and play
on the computer until their ps friends came home. Then at night they
would either get back on the computer or watch tv.

Instead, I've been trying to get little things going and see if they
are interested. At night I've been asking them if they want to watch
different videos I get out of the library. They have been interested
and Virginia will sit with me and watch but Allison sits at the
computer and says she is listening.

Should I just continue offering and not worry?

Are my kids deschooling or is this a phase that a lot of kids go
through?

Pat

Pam Hartley

----------
From: "homeschoolmd" <homeschoolmd@...>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [AlwaysLearning] microscope/unschooling question
Date: Wed, Apr 17, 2002, 6:38 AM


I still need your help with unschooling. My kids seem so focused on
playing the computer. They are addicted to "The Sims". It is a very
mentally stimulating game but prevents exposure to other things. It
seems like as soon as I am done introducing them to something, they
go back to playing on the computer.

I've told them I thought it was a better idea to balance their use of
the computer to looking for other interesting things on it as well.
Each time they do this, they find a good site that introduces them to
something new. The problem is I have to always prod and poke them a
little to move in this direction. Is this what unschooling should be?

-------------


The more you try to pull them from something they are really interested and
engaged in, the stronger they will resist (at least I hope so -- in my
opinion, it shows a lack of pluck for any red-blooded child to meekly follow
everything Mom thinks is more important).

Unschooling in our house is assuredly not one family member "poking" others,
in the direction that family member thinks they "should" go.

My daughter received as a gift from her grandmother an old Nintendo game for
our old Nintendo system called "Kirby's Great Adventure" (or something very
close to that). She spent the first three days leaving Kirby only to eat and
sleep (I do believe she used the bathroom in there somewhere, too). My
typical travel-loving child had no interest in accompanying me on my
errands, though I did offer (with the expectation of being refused).

She's on, I think she said level 7 (my husband could tell you for sure, he
and Brit have always bonded over video games <g>) and her game use has
whittled down to perhaps 25% or a bit less of her waking hours.

As far as I know, Kirby's Great Adventure has no educational use whatsoever.
<g> Sandra could probably tell me where I'm going wrong on that assumption.
;) But I don't care. The game is not the total of her life of learning. It's
not probable that Brit will spend her life at it and end up drooling into
her pancakes each morning.

Unschooling is about offering, not poking, not badgering, not begging, IMHO.
Let them know what you're going to be doing, let them know of things coming
up that you believe might interest them. When you can squeeze in on the
computer, do a web search and see if there are similar games to the one
they're enjoying so you can facilitate their interest (we just bought on
eBay an old NES cartridge called "Rainbow" something that looks like a
Kirby's Great Adventure-style game for Brit, and if it is we'll no doubt
lose her to the NES for another solid week or two).

Pam



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/17/02 7:43:14 AM, homeschoolmd@... writes:

<< They are addicted to "The Sims". It is a very
mentally stimulating game but prevents exposure to other things. It
seems like as soon as I am done introducing them to something, they
go back to playing on the computer. >>

They won't play it forever.
It's not just mentally stimulating, they're learning all kinds of real
things. Have you played it, or sat next to them and watched them play?

<<I've told them I thought it was a better idea to balance their use of
the computer to looking for other interesting things on it as well.
Each time they do this, they find a good site that introduces them to
something new. The problem is I have to always prod and poke them a
little to move in this direction. Is this what unschooling should be?>>

Not the poking and prodding part.

You don't need to tell what it is, but you said you have stuff going on that
has kept you from playing with the new Christmas microscope for three months.
First, I don't think the microscope will go bad for sitting! BUT what if
someone was poking and prodding you to balance your time between what it is
you're needing or wanting to do, and playing with that microscope a little
bit every day?

I don't think it would make you like the microscope OR that pokey-proddy
person much.

If Sims is what they like about the computer, to come and suggest they're not
using the computer well or right seems off topic for them. If you let them
play whatever they want to, I'm pretty sure they'll move on to other things
on their own.

We have had for years a shareware hangman game I paid $10 or so for, and the
other day Marty said it was asking for the password. I told him where it
was, and he restored it. I had no idea Marty was playing hangman sometimes
on his own. If he hadn't needed the password, he probably wouldn't have
mentioned it. It wasn't important.

I know Holly plays it because sometimes she'll show me what she has and ask
for suggestions, and I'll say "probably a vowel" or "c" might be part of a
blend--try "h" or "k."

There are thirty or so OTHER games on that computer. And Marty usually plays
Civilization on it.

Holly still plays a really ancient game on the old Macintosh called "Blobbo,"
and she knows ALL about the levels she can do.

<<Should I just continue offering and not worry?>>

I think so.

<<Are my kids deschooling or is this a phase that a lot of kids go
through? >>

Both?

Do they ever go out with you in the yard to see the progress? Holly and I go
out together and see what's sprouted and blooming. I do most of the work,
but if she helps me I let her quit when she wants to. Yesterday she and I
dug up dandelions together. She got tired and I finished on my own. Instead
of resenting that she quit, I was glad she had helped. From my point of
view, it was a learning an togetherness opportunity, not a chore.

We're growing pumpkins. The plants are about four inches tall, and sometimes
I water then and sometimes she does. There's not a schedule.

We don't have a microscope. We do have a paper cup with things we want to
look at under the microscopes when we go to the science museum. They have
some GREAT little microscopes you can switch the lighting from top to bottom,
so you can look through things like slides or insect wings, or with top
lighting you can look far down into rocks, leaves, pennies, the tiny cuts
around your cuticles. you can look at a credit card and see way down into
the holograms! And the edges of the raised numbers and letters aren't as
smooth close up as they are in "real size."

If we had a little home microscope, it probably couldn't do all that.

Still, I wouldn't turn one down! <g>

I saw one at a CompUSA that hooks to a PC, so you see whatever it is on the
monitor! It was $99, but I have a Mac. <g> Kirby just bought himself a
PC... hmmmmm....

Sandra

Karin

Have you tried the suggestion of just *pretending* they are on summer vacation?
I believe your kids used to be in school, right?
When they were on summer vacation, would you poke and prod them or would you let them do pretty much whatever they wanted to do? Afterall, they had been working SO HARD all year long in school, they deserved a break during summer, right?

When I remember my own summer vacations (many, many years ago), it was day after day of doing whatever I wanted to do basically. We were allowed to eat cinnamon toast for breakfast while watching our favorite cartoons, play games with each other (my sisters and I), go to the library and read lots of books, watch more TV, lots and lots of "playing", going out on occasion, and I'm sure if we had a computer back then, we could have been playing on it. My parents didn't have many expectations of us kids while we were on summer vacation. From what I can remember, there was a nice, regular rhythm to the day. Okay, sometimes it did get BORING! :-)

Anyway, this is what it's like at our house many days. I don't expect my kids to "do" anything. It is summer vacation ALL THE TIME. (YAY!!!) And those times when it starts getting boring is when unschooling kicks in. Then I start offering, suggesting, thinking of different things to do, places to go, people to see. It all works out wonderfully.

My suggestion - get in the summer vacation mode and stay there!
Most importantly, HAVE FUN!!! And I would say, let them play SIMS to their hearts content. :o)

Karin



homeschoolmd wrote:

We got a microscope for Christmas and have not used it much. I know
if I got interested and started putting lots of things under it the
kids would be interested in looking. For now I'm not there. I've
got some other stuff going on.

I still need your help with unschooling. My kids seem so focused on
playing the computer. They are addicted to "The Sims". It is a very
mentally stimulating game but prevents exposure to other things. It
seems like as soon as I am done introducing them to something, they
go back to playing on the computer.

I've told them I thought it was a better idea to balance their use of
the computer to looking for other interesting things on it as well.
Each time they do this, they find a good site that introduces them to
something new. The problem is I have to always prod and poke them a
little to move in this direction. Is this what unschooling should be?

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Tia Leschke

>
>I still need your help with unschooling. My kids seem so focused on
>playing the computer. They are addicted to "The Sims". It is a very
>mentally stimulating game but prevents exposure to other things. It
>seems like as soon as I am done introducing them to something, they
>go back to playing on the computer.

Maybe it's preventing exposure to other things or maybe not. I'm not
familiar with Sims, but there must be things that come up in the game that
you could show them "in real life". What do they talk about when they're
playing? That would clue you in to what other games or ideas or activities
you could offer - not to lure them away from the game but to enrich the
experience and show them something about how one thing can lead to another.


>I've told them I thought it was a better idea to balance their use of
>the computer to looking for other interesting things on it as well.
>Each time they do this, they find a good site that introduces them to
>something new. The problem is I have to always prod and poke them a
>little to move in this direction. Is this what unschooling should be?

When they're looking for sites, is it because they want to or you want them
to? Maybe *you* could look for sites and just bookmark them in a file for
the girls to look at if they get bored with their game. Maybe there are
sites out there that would help them with Sims - hints or whatever. You
want them to see the internet as a tool *for them* as opposed to something
you want them to do.

Or you could just wait it out. I've never known my son to play the same
game intensively for all that long.
Tia

What you think of me is none of my business.
*********************************************************
Tia Leschke leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

moonmeghan

<<<<--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., "Suzanna and Darrell"
<truealaskans@p...> wrote:

I doubt that I could get my husband to read any books. I have
tried before; he will start them but he doesn't usually get far. He
doesn't like to read. He still has yet to make it all the way through
an algebra course. He says that the reason he wants me to do
"school" schooling with them is because he doesn't want them
to wind up like him.

Suzanna>>>>

I am assuming that he is a product of the public school system.
It obviously didn't work for him, so why would he want to
perpetuate the same 'system' (by this I mean 'school at home')
with your children? It is quite possible that they will end up
exactly like him, and millions of others that have suffered through
the ps system. It may help to point out this irony to him.

Meghan

homeschoolmd

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Pam Hartley <pamhartley@m...> wrote:
> The more you try to pull them from something they are really
interested and
> engaged in, the stronger they will resist (at least I hope so -- in
my
> opinion, it shows a lack of pluck for any red-blooded child to
meekly follow
> everything Mom thinks is more important).


I agree with your point here and they certainly would resist if they
felt I was trying to pull them in a certain direction.

I do not tell them what to do but I feel it is my responsibility as
their parent to help them understand that too much of anything is not
good. I imagine what you are saying is that this is probably short
lived and what harm could that be. I agree.


>
> Unschooling in our house is assuredly not one family
member "poking" others,
> in the direction that family member thinks they "should" go.
>

I thought poking was ok. I certainly poke them about their rooms and
I feel I should poke them about balance in their lives. There are no
consequences or punishments just discussions.

Kids in school and kids being homeschooled/unschooled are no
different when it comes to learning on their own terms. Many many
high school kids drift through high school and only decide to get
their acts together when they can't get into the college they want or
what ever it is they want to do and can't. The reason they are
drifting is because learning has not been presented in an interesting
way and they are not being given choices in what to learn.

Why would we spend the time and energy to homeschool/unschool if our
kids were going to squander this time. I'm not talking about forced
learning of any kind. I'm talking about taking *advantage* of what
unschooling has to offer. I think our children need to understand
what wonderful opportunities they have and I don't think it is wrong
for me to discuss that with them. The same as I would discuss with
them the value of showing appreciation for a gift they received by
sending a thank you note.

I'm sure many of you will say there is no such thing as a child
squandering his time. As long as there are interesting things to do,
children will choose those things eventually - when they are bored.

I'm wondering if this is true for children that have been in school
for 6 or 7 years like mine. I remember reading in one of Holt's
books that children that have been schooled can't be left alone to
learn. He was referring to families where both parents worked
outside the home. He said this could work for children that were not
previously schooled but not children that were schooled.

If this is true, children that have been schooled may need some help
with direction.

Pat

Pam Hartley

**********I do not tell them what to do but I feel it is my responsibility
as
their parent to help them understand that too much of anything is not good.
**********


The problem here is, who gets to define what "too much" of "anything" is?

Your too much may not be mine. Mine may not be your child's. Your child's
may not be my child's or the guy next door's.

Because it's THEIR learning, IMHO they should get to regulate how much is
too much. I have heard tales of children who couldn't regulate ("he just
watches TV for MONTHS and YEARS if I let him!") but I have a hard time
believing them. I think parents see what they fear in these situations, not
what really is.

**********I thought poking was ok. I certainly poke them about their rooms
and
I feel I should poke them about balance in their lives. There are no
consequences or punishments just discussions. **********

I suppose I think of "poke" as a negative thing. Offering is what I do.
"Look, there's a parade next week, do you want to go?" instead of "You've
been on that computer for four days, let's go to a parade!"

If you're telling them (verbally or not) that what they are doing is bad,
wrong, too much, not learning, not learning enough, I think it's a problem
for unschooling. It's saying you know what's better for them to learn.

If you're just bringing up the same things you would bring up if the
children were spending all their time reading the collected work of Will
Shakespeare and calculating the root of pi, that's a different matter.

**********Kids in school and kids being homeschooled/unschooled are no
different when it comes to learning on their own terms.**********

I don't understand this statement at all. I can't imagine anything more
different than children deciding their own path in learning (unschooling)
versus it being decided for them (schooling and some/most homeschooling).
Clarify?

********** Many many
high school kids drift through high school and only decide to get
their acts together when they can't get into the college they want or
what ever it is they want to do and can't. The reason they are
drifting is because learning has not been presented in an interesting
way and they are not being given choices in what to learn.**********

A spoonful of sugar is not what's needed to make the algebra go down. When
you say to a child, "This is not valuable, choose from these valuable
activities I am giving you", that's no choice at all, IMHO.


**********Why would we spend the time and energy to homeschool/unschool if
our
kids were going to squander this time. I'm not talking about forced
learning of any kind. I'm talking about taking *advantage* of what
unschooling has to offer.**********

Who gets to define "squander"? Who gets to define "taking advantage of what
unschooling has to offer"? A child playing a computer game for four weeks
straight IS taking advantage of what unschooling has to offer (can't get
away with that in school, or in a school-at-home family), as long as they
are not playing "by default" because they have no other good choices. If
they have choices and someone noticing what they like or might like, without
that same someone thinking in the back of their head "this will get them
away from that stupid (fill in the blank activity) and LEARNING SOMETHING",
unschooling flourishes.


**********I'm sure many of you will say there is no such thing as a child
squandering his time. As long as there are interesting things to do,
children will choose those things eventually - when they are bored.

I'm wondering if this is true for children that have been in school
for 6 or 7 years like mine. I remember reading in one of Holt's
books that children that have been schooled can't be left alone to
learn. He was referring to families where both parents worked
outside the home. He said this could work for children that were not
previously schooled but not children that were schooled.**********

This is not your situation, is it? You are home, there to offer options and
notice what they like. I don't see how it applies.

**********If this is true, children that have been schooled may need some
help
with direction. **********

I think it's not unschooling to direct.

Pam


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/19/2002 4:42:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
pamhartley@... writes:
> I have heard tales of children who couldn't regulate ("he just
> watches TV for MONTHS and YEARS if I let him!") but I have a hard time
> believing them. I think parents see what they fear in these situations, not
> what really is.
>

That's funny--Cameron's been having to defend his unschooling to a couple of
schooled friends---and that's one of THEIR arguments! Noah SWEARS he would
just watch TV forever! Cameron insists that that gets boring! <g> [Keep in
mind, he watched A LOT of TV at first---he's been home almost two years.]

Algebra carries a lot of weight too---to these schooled kids. And the concept
of "successful". They insist that, without school, you can only make a good
living if you are an athlete or musician (read a big time band). ??????

He's told them that they've been brainwashed to believe that school is a
requirement. THEY say that I've brainwashed HIM! I just find it hard to
believe TEENAGERS already think this way. I expect it from parents, but the
kids?

kellyinsc


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

joanna514

. << I'm talking about taking *advantage* of what
> unschooling has to offer. I think our children need to understand
> what wonderful opportunities they have and I don't think it is
wrong
> for me to discuss that with them. >>>

I felt the need to discuss with my kids, the other day, the reality
of their lives. I explained that they have lots of time and freedom
and if there was anything they wanted to do, like playing and
instrument, or basically anything that would take time and/or money
to learn, that this was a pretty good time in thier life to do it.
Other people willing to help them and freedom from grown up
responsabilities and all that. I think conversations are good. I
let them know I don't care what or if they decide to take up
anything. I just wanted them aware of the reality of the situation.
I don't want them to grow up and not realize all the possibilities.




>
> I'm wondering if this is true for children that have been in school
> for 6 or 7 years like mine. I remember reading in one of Holt's
> books that children that have been schooled can't be left alone to
> learn. He was referring to families where both parents worked
> outside the home. He said this could work for children that were
not
> previously schooled but not children that were schooled.
>
> If this is true, children that have been schooled may need some
help
> with direction.
>
> Pat

I think talking to them about all of your thoughts and feelings,
while letting them know you are not all knowing and just pondering,
or concerned, and discussing why you are pondering or concerned and
discussing their feelings and perceptions of it all can only help all
of you to the best place each of you can be.
When I talk to my kids, it is usually in the form of; this is how I
feel, what do you think about it? I usually find great insight and
my fears are relieved.
Talk to them about John Holts theories. See what they think.
I haven't read ahead, but talk to them about what people have to say
about it here.
Joanna

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/19/02 7:57:55 AM, kbcdlovejo@... writes:

<< Cameron's been having to defend his unschooling to a couple of
schooled friends---and that's one of THEIR arguments! Noah SWEARS he would
just watch TV forever! >>

Zoe was interviewed for the newspaper and she told the reporter that adults
have said that to her. Her answer, "I think kids are more interesting than
that."

<gg>.

Paula

Pam Hartley

The kids are the ones stuck where they are, I'm not surprised if they cloak
school in "necessary and desirable" rather than "needless and here only for
my eternal torment". And some kids DO consistently like school, though I
think they're in the minority.

Pam

----------
From: kbcdlovejo@...
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [AlwaysLearning] Re: microscope/unschooling question
Date: Fri, Apr 19, 2002, 5:26 AM


He's told them that they've been brainwashed to believe that school is a
requirement. THEY say that I've brainwashed HIM! I just find it hard to
believe TEENAGERS already think this way. I expect it from parents, but the
kids?



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/18/02 1:14:36 PM, leschke@... writes:

<< Maybe *you* could look for sites and just bookmark them in a file for
the girls to look at if they get bored with their game. >>

I e-mail my kids links all the time. Sometimes I just look for links Holly
would like, because she doesn't get much e-mail, and I'm sad when she goes to
check and there's nothing. It's probably sad too when it's all from her mom!
But I try to find animated dancing things or sites with music and pictures
of dolls like she has, or something she's asked about lately. Not just sites
with words, because she doesn't read well. (But the Mac can be induced to
read to her, which helps sometimes.)

Sometimes Holly and I just play with the computer like people play with a
book or game, looking for what might be there randomly. We'll put two
seemingly unrelated words into google.com and see what sites we get. And
we've looked at people's personal photo sites of cats named Holly, dogs named
Holly, etc.

Sandra

[email protected]

<< I do not tell them what to do but I feel it is my responsibility as
their parent to help them understand that too much of anything is not
good. >>

Too much positive regard? Too much love? Too much happiness?
Too much time to think and play?

A truism like "too much of anything is not good" can limit our actual
thinking. If "rules" like that are more important that what our kids want,
unschooling won't kick in as it can if our thinking is set to accept that
what we "knew" before might not apply at all anymore.

<<I thought poking was ok. I certainly poke them about their rooms and
I feel I should poke them about balance in their lives. There are no
consequences or punishments just discussions. >>

For some kids, "a discussion" can be a punishment, and certainly can be a
consequence! <g> When I say "I need to talk to you, [kidname]" that's not
"just a discussion."

Instead of poking them about their rooms, can you wait until they REALLY need
to clean them (company's coming, or more of their laundry is lost or under
the bed than in the hamper, or something pressing) and then just ASK them?

("Poking" to me has the connotation of little jabs, and little jabs are often
sarcasm or insult. So maybe you mean "pressure" and not "poking," and this
is minor in a way, and crucial in a way.)

<<Kids in school and kids being homeschooled/unschooled are no
different when it comes to learning on their own terms.>>

Kids in school are not learning on their own terms. They can zone out and
decline to learn. They can learn a ton of stuff on their own after school,
but there is a body of work being presented in a certain way and they are
expected to regurgitate it on cue. That is NOTHING like kids being
unschooled. They are profoundly different when it comes to learning on ANY
terms.

<<Why would we spend the time and energy to homeschool/unschool if our
kids were going to squander this time. >>

First, to say "homeschool/unschool" creates a problem. If a family is doing
school-at-home, I put them in the same category as far as time-squander as
families whose kids are in school.

We need to be talking about unschooling here as a separate entity or the
discussions will be very muddy and not too useful.

An unschooler whose parents are aware and are not themselves zoned out and
lazy will not be able to "squander" time. He is living time.

If you think of the deeper meanings and connotations of "killing time,"
"wasting time," and "squandering time," it's pretty hard to apply that in the
absence of a big deadline, or to apply it to a family in which each day's
happiness is the goal.

<<I'm sure many of you will say there is no such thing as a child
squandering his time. As long as there are interesting things to do,
children will choose those things eventually - when they are bored. >>

They will NOT choose everything eventually. They will choose the things
that interest them or are important to them.

If all you had was a can of lima beans and some soda crackers, and you were
locked in a building for a week, I bet you would eat lima beans and soda
crackers. But if those things were in a pantry which was replenished weekly,
you might NEVER eat lima beans. And so what???

Do you mean to induce the desire for lima beans? Do you think a child is
being wasteful if he doesn't want every aspect of learning that the parent
can imagine?

<<If this is true, children that have been schooled may need some help
with direction. >>

They need a boost to get to the point that they themselves trust that what
they're learning is useful. And the parents need to believe that too.
Looking for school-learning in everyday life isn't the ultimate goal. It's
seeing what "school learning" can be from the other side. Kids will not
spontaneously discover long division in its traditional notation. But kids
WILL discover how to divide somehow in their heads. And then when they're 18
or whenever they see that little (artificial) arrangement of numbers and
symbos they will be able to understand in about ten seconds how it works.
It's not the notation that's primary in the real world, it's the
understanding. In school, the notation is IT and if you don't really
understand the concept, people don't much care as long as you've worked your
30 problems (or copied them from another kid).

<<I'm wondering if this is true for children that have been in school
for 6 or 7 years like mine. I remember reading in one of Holt's
books that children that have been schooled can't be left alone to
learn. .>

They'll need some deschooling, not some continuation of school-style life--IF
you want to unschool.

Kids who are depressed or wish they were in school can squander their
unschooling opportunities. But those who are enthusiastic about unschooling
will sooner come to the "flow zone" and they need enthusiastic and trusting
parents to help them get there!

Sandra

Nancy Wooton

on 4/19/02 7:27 AM, Pam Hartley at pamhartley@... wrote:

> The kids are the ones stuck where they are, I'm not surprised if they cloak
> school in "necessary and desirable" rather than "needless and here only for
> my eternal torment". And some kids DO consistently like school, though I
> think they're in the minority.

Those are the ones whose bangs hide their lobotomy scars.


Nancy (and Calvin)

homeschoolmd

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., Pam Hartley <pamhartley@m...> wrote:
> The problem here is, who gets to define what "too much"
of "anything" is?
>
> Your too much may not be mine. Mine may not be your child's. Your
child's
> may not be my child's or the guy next door's.
>
> Because it's THEIR learning, IMHO they should get to regulate how
much is
> too much. I have heard tales of children who couldn't regulate ("he
just
> watches TV for MONTHS and YEARS if I let him!") but I have a hard
time
> believing them. I think parents see what they fear in these
situations, not
> what really is.

I am guilty of this. I need to take a deep breath next time I want
to say something and wait a week. I bet the situation will be
different. Actually, I bet I won't be able to remember what I was
worried about last week because I will be too worried about something
else. <SIGH>

> If you're telling them (verbally or not) that what they are doing
is bad,
> wrong, too much, not learning, not learning enough, I think it's a
problem
> for unschooling. It's saying you know what's better for them to
learn.

Virginia thinks I'm telling her that what she is doing is bad. She
told me so just this week. I don't think what they are doing is bad
but if they feel that is what I think then this is a problem I need
to correct.

> **********Kids in school and kids being homeschooled/unschooled are
no
> different when it comes to learning on their own terms.**********
>
> I don't understand this statement at all. I can't imagine anything
more
> different than children deciding their own path in learning
(unschooling)
> versus it being decided for them (schooling and some/most
homeschooling).
> Clarify?

Parents on this list and others have talked about their kids getting
a wake up call about something and then getting motivated enough to
do what they need to do. I have heard the same thing from parents of
schooled kids. It means to me that they knew ahead of time that they
would need certain skills to get into college, for example, but did
not make the effort until they were forced to (forced by the reality
of life).

My feeling is that they squandered some of their time. They probably
wish they had done a little more of something along the way. Can we
help them be better prepared? I'd like to think so. I surely don't
know how but I do know I definitely need to continue to make changes
in my approach.

Pat

homeschoolmd

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> Do they ever go out with you in the yard to see the progress?

They come out and talk to me. Recently I pointed out the beautiful
smelling flowers on the viburnum bushes and the monarch butterflies
and the girls wanted to feed the butterflies with the butterfly
nectar and butterfly feeder we got at Christmas so we set it all up.

Yesterday afternoon our backyard flooded due to a very bad storm.
The flood waters swept through my pond and took out all the fish. We
spent some time trying to save what we could.

The painted lady butterflies we bought as caterpillars hatched a few
days ago and we have spent a few minutes here and there watching
them. Our cats started attacking their habitat so we decided to let
them go. We spent some time enjoying their first flight.

These are such small parts of our day. Maybe this is all I should be
expecting????

Pat

homeschoolmd

--- In AlwaysLearning@y..., SandraDodd@a... wrote:
> Instead of poking them about their rooms, can you wait until they
REALLY need
> to clean them (company's coming, or more of their laundry is lost
or under
> the bed than in the hamper, or something pressing) and then just
ASK them?

I can't live in chaos, just can't. I'm willing to take a few minutes
*with them* every day and just do a quick pick up. I've tried
letting things go but the clean up is so time consuming it becomes an
obstacle. If it is taken care of in small doses it is so easy and
then the place is livable.

>
> ("Poking" to me has the connotation of little jabs, and little jabs
are often
> sarcasm or insult. So maybe you mean "pressure" and not "poking,"
and this
> is minor in a way, and crucial in a way.)

I would like to think it is just pressure but as I said in an earlier
post Virginia feels I am being too critical so I really need to back
off.

> If you think of the deeper meanings and connotations of "killing
time,"
> "wasting time," and "squandering time," it's pretty hard to apply
that in the
> absence of a big deadline, or to apply it to a family in which each
day's
> happiness is the goal.

That brings up a good point. I guess I am thinking of the deadline
of college or a vocation or what ever the child chooses. Does it
matter if they are ready for this at 18 or 20, no. Does it matter if
it is 25, yes. How do you feel about this?

Pat

Tia Leschke

>
>Sometimes Holly and I just play with the computer like people play with a
>book or game, looking for what might be there randomly. We'll put two
>seemingly unrelated words into google.com and see what sites we get. And
>we've looked at people's personal photo sites of cats named Holly, dogs named
>Holly, etc.

You probably won't run into problems with that if you're Googling. Just be
careful about putting names into the formula, www.[name].com. My friend's
boy was doing that with his friends at the library one day. They each put
their mother's name in. When Marianne walked into the library, there was
her son at the computer wondering where that full frontal porn picture came
from. <g>
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

Tia Leschke

>
>
> > If you're telling them (verbally or not) that what they are doing
>is bad,
> > wrong, too much, not learning, not learning enough, I think it's a
>problem
> > for unschooling. It's saying you know what's better for them to
>learn.
>
>Virginia thinks I'm telling her that what she is doing is bad. She
>told me so just this week. I don't think what they are doing is bad
>but if they feel that is what I think then this is a problem I need
>to correct.

If she feels like you're telling her it'a bad, then that's what she's
hearing. If you tell them it's not good to do too much of something,
you're at the very least telling her that it's bad to do that something as
much as they are.


>Parents on this list and others have talked about their kids getting
>a wake up call about something and then getting motivated enough to
>do what they need to do. I have heard the same thing from parents of
>schooled kids. It means to me that they knew ahead of time that they
>would need certain skills to get into college, for example, but did
>not make the effort until they were forced to (forced by the reality
>of life).

When that happens with kids in school, it *can* be really hard for them to
"make it up". With unschooled kids, it's just something they've decided to
do now. I really believe that if a kid needed (for her own purposes) to
know everything that's taught in high school, she could buckle down and
learn it in a few months. The reason it takes schooled kids so long to
learn it is that they don't want to learn it. Someone else has made the
decision for them.


>My feeling is that they squandered some of their time. They probably
>wish they had done a little more of something along the way.

I would hope that wouldn't be true for an unschooled kid. They did a
little more of this and a little less of that, and now they can switch if
they choose to. No big deal.
Tia

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.
Eleanor Roosevelt
*********************************************
Tia Leschke
leschke@...
On Vancouver Island

[email protected]

Pat, eventually you will get used to them rejected your wonderful ideas! LOL
How about saying, "I am going out to plant the lamb's ear, want to help?"
~Elissa Cleaveland
"It is nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods of instruction
have
not yet entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry." A. Einstein

[email protected]

In a message dated 4/19/02 11:13:13 AM, ikonstitcher@... writes:

<< Those are the ones whose bangs hide their lobotomy scars. >>

HEY now...

I liked school.

(But come to think of it, I have occasionally wished for lobotomies to become
elective surgery...)

Sandra