overcorrecting?
Lisa
My son is 8. I have a feeling that, in the spirit of trying to help him get along in my world, what I am actually doing is over-correcting him. The reason I think this is whenever I tell him something meant to help him be kind and polite he says it to his friends and it comes out sounding rude.
Like just now, he asked his friend to do something and she said "no no no no no no!" and he said "you don't have to say it 10 times" in my exact tone that I use when he doing something that I think is disruptive to normal or kind conversation.
Is it the tone that I need to do away with? Do you generally say something to your kids when they are doing something that you would consider rude or disruptive to a normal conversation? If so, how do you say it?
I know I have a sensitivity to how people treat me and how people talk to each other, and I'm afraid that I'm treating him to harshly or being to hard on him or expecting too much from him. I feel like maybe I am criticizing him or being overly critical and I am not sure what to replace it with because the issues in question are important to me.
Like just now, he asked his friend to do something and she said "no no no no no no!" and he said "you don't have to say it 10 times" in my exact tone that I use when he doing something that I think is disruptive to normal or kind conversation.
Is it the tone that I need to do away with? Do you generally say something to your kids when they are doing something that you would consider rude or disruptive to a normal conversation? If so, how do you say it?
I know I have a sensitivity to how people treat me and how people talk to each other, and I'm afraid that I'm treating him to harshly or being to hard on him or expecting too much from him. I feel like maybe I am criticizing him or being overly critical and I am not sure what to replace it with because the issues in question are important to me.
Sandra Dodd
-=-I feel like maybe I am criticizing him or being overly critical and I am not sure what to replace it with because the issues in question are important to me.-=-
My guess is that "the issues in question" might be unclear to you.
Do you want him to act the way you imagine an ideal child should act? Might it be better if the relationship between you and your child can help you recover from your own need to criticize and control? Can you accept that he's different from you?
-=-Like just now, he asked his friend to do something and she said "no no no no no no!" and he said "you don't have to say it 10 times" in my exact tone that I use when he doing something that I think is disruptive to normal or kind conversation.-=-
He's eight. Criticizing the way he communicates at every point isn't communication. It's micro-management. From that example, it sounds as though perhaps he's starting to think that communication is critiquing the other person's words. I hope not. I hope the examples you gave are extreme and rare, and that most of your conversations are casual and calm.
-=- Do you generally say something to your kids when they are doing something that you would consider rude or disruptive to a normal conversation? If so, how do you say it?-=-
By "generally," do you mean occasionally? Regularly? Constantly?
Do you mean when the conversation involves a larger group? Three people? Just me and one of my children in private?
-=-I know I have a sensitivity to how people treat me and how people talk to each other, and I'm afraid that I'm treating him to harshly or being to hard on him or expecting too much from him. I feel like maybe I am criticizing him or being overly critical and I am not sure what to replace it with because the issues in question are important to me.
-=-
The next few times you decide how to respond to him, can you choose toward treating him the way you wish you had been treated when you were his age?
Eight is young. If you think you're being too hard on him, that's important to consider. If you think you're expecting too much of him, look at what you're expecting. Are you expecting him to communicate as an adult? To have your sensitivities and fears?
If what you want him to be is accepting and considerate, and to have the ability to think of others, it would help for you to know that. If you haven't clarified what "the issues in question" are, that will make it difficult for you to step toward that (rather than stepping away from it, or stepping ON it).
http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
My guess is that "the issues in question" might be unclear to you.
Do you want him to act the way you imagine an ideal child should act? Might it be better if the relationship between you and your child can help you recover from your own need to criticize and control? Can you accept that he's different from you?
-=-Like just now, he asked his friend to do something and she said "no no no no no no!" and he said "you don't have to say it 10 times" in my exact tone that I use when he doing something that I think is disruptive to normal or kind conversation.-=-
He's eight. Criticizing the way he communicates at every point isn't communication. It's micro-management. From that example, it sounds as though perhaps he's starting to think that communication is critiquing the other person's words. I hope not. I hope the examples you gave are extreme and rare, and that most of your conversations are casual and calm.
-=- Do you generally say something to your kids when they are doing something that you would consider rude or disruptive to a normal conversation? If so, how do you say it?-=-
By "generally," do you mean occasionally? Regularly? Constantly?
Do you mean when the conversation involves a larger group? Three people? Just me and one of my children in private?
-=-I know I have a sensitivity to how people treat me and how people talk to each other, and I'm afraid that I'm treating him to harshly or being to hard on him or expecting too much from him. I feel like maybe I am criticizing him or being overly critical and I am not sure what to replace it with because the issues in question are important to me.
-=-
The next few times you decide how to respond to him, can you choose toward treating him the way you wish you had been treated when you were his age?
Eight is young. If you think you're being too hard on him, that's important to consider. If you think you're expecting too much of him, look at what you're expecting. Are you expecting him to communicate as an adult? To have your sensitivities and fears?
If what you want him to be is accepting and considerate, and to have the ability to think of others, it would help for you to know that. If you haven't clarified what "the issues in question" are, that will make it difficult for you to step toward that (rather than stepping away from it, or stepping ON it).
http://sandradodd.com/rules
http://sandradodd.com/choices
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Mica
This query struck a chord with me. It seems similar to the things I've done
in the past, and may yet do if I don't work my way around it. So I hope
that sharing my thoughts now might at least help me in that 'working'.
Sometimes, when my sons have communicated with me, I've reacted to either
the language or tone or a style that bothered me by analysing or judging it
as non-constructive or rude or irritating or any number of other slightly
negative types which appeared to me to need my guidance towards more useful
means of expression. Sometimes I would eventually realise that I was
wanting them to do all the work of communicating: to understand me and my
styles and choose ways that will reach me comfortably - even sometimes
perhaps to adjust their feelings and needs so that I wouldn't need to. That
still sounds nice - but I recognise it as unrealistic and unfair and lazy of
me.
I found the principles and metaphors behind the otherwise awkward phrasing
of Marshall Rosenberg's "Compassionate Communication" instructive for me, as
they gave me something different and most important to Listen for. I've
always known that one must listen, but my earlier understanding was that it
was to listen for facts and reason in order to logically contribute towards
reasonable action. I still do that but Marshall's explanations of empathy
and connection made sense and matched my rare experiences of being heard and
Hearing underlying needs without judgement.
So my challenge has become: when I hear styles or tones or words of
communication that trigger my judgements, to remember my "giraffe ears" and
listen for what may be behind the communication which I think I'd have
preferred to hear differently; and *then* rather than teach my sons to speak
to me differently, to respond to that key message rather than the words that
emitted.
Along the way, mini-steps have been: when I do recall my challenge, closer
and closer to my "correction", I attempt to make up for it - I add a guess
at understanding and offer to meet the message that being conveyed. Lately
I've been able to stop myself from correcting and Hear the message.
Occasionally I've even managed a humourous response. A few times I've also
recognised and verbally appreciated when my sons have communicated difficult
things for me to hear in ways that I hear most easily, or when they've
interpreted my own negative communications compassionately.
Oh another thing I did sometimes and the boys enjoy it with me, is to break
down parts of my corrective language like: "You don't have to..." with "No
I/you don't have to, but it somehow expresses part of my feeling just now"
or "It might be more effective if you...." with "well sure some other way
might be more effective but what came out was this, so let's Listen to it" -
in other words, I remind myself that my "correction" is no so helpful itself
and it is by-passing / ignoring the intended message. My sons were young,
they didn't need the meta-communication back then.
Hoping you find ways to peace and understanding in your family.
Mica
in the past, and may yet do if I don't work my way around it. So I hope
that sharing my thoughts now might at least help me in that 'working'.
Sometimes, when my sons have communicated with me, I've reacted to either
the language or tone or a style that bothered me by analysing or judging it
as non-constructive or rude or irritating or any number of other slightly
negative types which appeared to me to need my guidance towards more useful
means of expression. Sometimes I would eventually realise that I was
wanting them to do all the work of communicating: to understand me and my
styles and choose ways that will reach me comfortably - even sometimes
perhaps to adjust their feelings and needs so that I wouldn't need to. That
still sounds nice - but I recognise it as unrealistic and unfair and lazy of
me.
I found the principles and metaphors behind the otherwise awkward phrasing
of Marshall Rosenberg's "Compassionate Communication" instructive for me, as
they gave me something different and most important to Listen for. I've
always known that one must listen, but my earlier understanding was that it
was to listen for facts and reason in order to logically contribute towards
reasonable action. I still do that but Marshall's explanations of empathy
and connection made sense and matched my rare experiences of being heard and
Hearing underlying needs without judgement.
So my challenge has become: when I hear styles or tones or words of
communication that trigger my judgements, to remember my "giraffe ears" and
listen for what may be behind the communication which I think I'd have
preferred to hear differently; and *then* rather than teach my sons to speak
to me differently, to respond to that key message rather than the words that
emitted.
Along the way, mini-steps have been: when I do recall my challenge, closer
and closer to my "correction", I attempt to make up for it - I add a guess
at understanding and offer to meet the message that being conveyed. Lately
I've been able to stop myself from correcting and Hear the message.
Occasionally I've even managed a humourous response. A few times I've also
recognised and verbally appreciated when my sons have communicated difficult
things for me to hear in ways that I hear most easily, or when they've
interpreted my own negative communications compassionately.
Oh another thing I did sometimes and the boys enjoy it with me, is to break
down parts of my corrective language like: "You don't have to..." with "No
I/you don't have to, but it somehow expresses part of my feeling just now"
or "It might be more effective if you...." with "well sure some other way
might be more effective but what came out was this, so let's Listen to it" -
in other words, I remind myself that my "correction" is no so helpful itself
and it is by-passing / ignoring the intended message. My sons were young,
they didn't need the meta-communication back then.
Hoping you find ways to peace and understanding in your family.
Mica
On Thu, Jul 7, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Lisa <lisa@...> wrote:
> **
>
>
> My son is 8. I have a feeling that, in the spirit of trying to help him get
> along in my world, what I am actually doing is over-correcting him. The
> reason I think this is whenever I tell him something meant to help him be
> kind and polite he says it to his friends and it comes out sounding rude.
>
> Like just now, he asked his friend to do something and she said "no no no
> no no no!" and he said "you don't have to say it 10 times" in my exact tone
> that I use when he doing something that I think is disruptive to normal or
> kind conversation.
>
> Is it the tone that I need to do away with? Do you generally say something
> to your kids when they are doing something that you would consider rude or
> disruptive to a normal conversation? If so, how do you say it?
>
> I know I have a sensitivity to how people treat me and how people talk to
> each other, and I'm afraid that I'm treating him to harshly or being to hard
> on him or expecting too much from him. I feel like maybe I am criticizing
> him or being overly critical and I am not sure what to replace it with
> because the issues in question are important to me.
>
>
>
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Joyce Fetteroll
On Jul 7, 2011, at 1:38 AM, Lisa wrote:
imagine their husband or best friend doing to them what they're doing
to their child.
When my daughter said to me after I spilled something, "That's your
mess. You need to clean it up," it was a wake up call. If I thought it
was sweet to hear someone say, "Let's get that cleaned up," I needed
to say that to her.
When you're talking to your child or your husband, would you want them
to be weighing and judging how well you're communicating and then
correcting what they feel you're doing wrong? It would be sort of like
living in a critique without ever signing up for it! Or would you want
them to focus on understanding your meaning and ignore the delivery?
If you need a self-test, ask yourself if he's hurting anyone right
now, right this minute. *Trust* that at 13 he won't always be using 8
yo ways of communicating just as he's not using 3 yo ways of
communicating now at 8. Trust that biology will take care of some.
Trust that experience and figuring things out for himself will take
care of some.
If he is hurting you repeatedly several times a week, the first thing
to examine is if you might be too sensitive. You need to give him
leeway to be someone who is still figuring the world out. If he really
is being deliberately rude, knowing he's hurting you, the second thing
to examine is where you or life is hurting him. Needing to hurt
someone else is often a good indication of needs and self that are
being trampled on.
It's been bugging me for a while that the concept of helping a child
live in the world could get interpreted as you did and get translated
into telling them everything they're doing wrong. Eg, handing them the
right way to do and be. Which is what schools do! Which is what
conventional parenting is about.
The problem is there really is no other relationship people are
familiar with that is like the concept we're trying to explain!
There's nothing to compare it to help people make the mental shift
from molding and shaping to being a child's partner or being on the
same team (as Sandra often expresses it). Most other relationships
where one person is more knowledgeable than the other is about being
the imparter of wisdom like a teacher or coach, or being a resource
the learner calls on when they're stuck like a mentor.
We're the shapers of the atmosphere around them: bringing the parts of
the world to them they might find intriguing, making what they're
trying to reach more reachable, being peaceful and moving the
environment towards peace. We're attuned to their needs, responding to
physical needs the child may be ignoring for more interesting things,
trusting the child is learning when they're trying things that have
unintended results, being there as a resource. We're also there to
partner with them, to be the buffer between their needs and the rest
of the world to find respectful and safe solutions to what they're
trying to do. We use our values as tools to help them meet their needs
rather than as tools to shape them into better people.
None of that is easy to get across ;-) For example, people will get
the idea of letting the child figure things out but then turn it into
a rule and not help when the child is struggling. The principle is to
help as much as *the child* needs you to help. The principle of
getting unschooling is to dig beneath the what to get at the why.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> I have a feeling that, in the spirit of trying to help him get alongYup, that's a pretty good indication! It's why I often ask people to
> in my world, what I am actually doing is over-correcting him. The
> reason I think this is whenever I tell him something meant to help
> him be kind and polite he says it to his friends and it comes out
> sounding rude.
imagine their husband or best friend doing to them what they're doing
to their child.
When my daughter said to me after I spilled something, "That's your
mess. You need to clean it up," it was a wake up call. If I thought it
was sweet to hear someone say, "Let's get that cleaned up," I needed
to say that to her.
When you're talking to your child or your husband, would you want them
to be weighing and judging how well you're communicating and then
correcting what they feel you're doing wrong? It would be sort of like
living in a critique without ever signing up for it! Or would you want
them to focus on understanding your meaning and ignore the delivery?
If you need a self-test, ask yourself if he's hurting anyone right
now, right this minute. *Trust* that at 13 he won't always be using 8
yo ways of communicating just as he's not using 3 yo ways of
communicating now at 8. Trust that biology will take care of some.
Trust that experience and figuring things out for himself will take
care of some.
If he is hurting you repeatedly several times a week, the first thing
to examine is if you might be too sensitive. You need to give him
leeway to be someone who is still figuring the world out. If he really
is being deliberately rude, knowing he's hurting you, the second thing
to examine is where you or life is hurting him. Needing to hurt
someone else is often a good indication of needs and self that are
being trampled on.
It's been bugging me for a while that the concept of helping a child
live in the world could get interpreted as you did and get translated
into telling them everything they're doing wrong. Eg, handing them the
right way to do and be. Which is what schools do! Which is what
conventional parenting is about.
The problem is there really is no other relationship people are
familiar with that is like the concept we're trying to explain!
There's nothing to compare it to help people make the mental shift
from molding and shaping to being a child's partner or being on the
same team (as Sandra often expresses it). Most other relationships
where one person is more knowledgeable than the other is about being
the imparter of wisdom like a teacher or coach, or being a resource
the learner calls on when they're stuck like a mentor.
We're the shapers of the atmosphere around them: bringing the parts of
the world to them they might find intriguing, making what they're
trying to reach more reachable, being peaceful and moving the
environment towards peace. We're attuned to their needs, responding to
physical needs the child may be ignoring for more interesting things,
trusting the child is learning when they're trying things that have
unintended results, being there as a resource. We're also there to
partner with them, to be the buffer between their needs and the rest
of the world to find respectful and safe solutions to what they're
trying to do. We use our values as tools to help them meet their needs
rather than as tools to shape them into better people.
None of that is easy to get across ;-) For example, people will get
the idea of letting the child figure things out but then turn it into
a rule and not help when the child is struggling. The principle is to
help as much as *the child* needs you to help. The principle of
getting unschooling is to dig beneath the what to get at the why.
Joyce
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Catherine Hassall
I have been asking this question myself for a few days. I think I am
doing this with our daughter - so I will take a step back for a while
and think more before I respond. But I am still not sure how to know
when it is appropriate to 'correct' or influence my daughter,
especially in regard to social contexts. She can be quite explosive
when things don't work out how she wants and feels social tension very
acutely. She can also be very demanding of other adults, pushy &
manipulative with other children. I am always trying to point out how
this upsets others etc. Even though she does not like to be excluded
herself, she can exclude others who she does not really relate to. I
also notice that my anxious anticipation of 'trouble' in social
situations, or interference when she is upset often makes the
situation worse, or is perhaps contributing to a pattern of repetition
of these behaviors. I have often read on here, especially from
Sandra, about not allowing a child to just continue to do things which
are not OK . . . which ones are or are not OK and when to respond how
to them? I am not sure. Somewhere in here is the line between
parenting and unparenting?
thanks
catherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
doing this with our daughter - so I will take a step back for a while
and think more before I respond. But I am still not sure how to know
when it is appropriate to 'correct' or influence my daughter,
especially in regard to social contexts. She can be quite explosive
when things don't work out how she wants and feels social tension very
acutely. She can also be very demanding of other adults, pushy &
manipulative with other children. I am always trying to point out how
this upsets others etc. Even though she does not like to be excluded
herself, she can exclude others who she does not really relate to. I
also notice that my anxious anticipation of 'trouble' in social
situations, or interference when she is upset often makes the
situation worse, or is perhaps contributing to a pattern of repetition
of these behaviors. I have often read on here, especially from
Sandra, about not allowing a child to just continue to do things which
are not OK . . . which ones are or are not OK and when to respond how
to them? I am not sure. Somewhere in here is the line between
parenting and unparenting?
thanks
catherine
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***I have often read on here, especially from
Sandra, about not allowing a child to just continue to do things which
are not OK . . . which ones are or are not OK and when to respond how
to them? I am not sure. Somewhere in here is the line between
parenting and unparenting?***
I think is more of a difference in how you respond, be it verbal or physical. With some kids a quick verbal cue or bit of communication is all that is needed. With other kids it's sometimes better to remove them from the situation, go and do something else, something fun, a change of perspective, a breath of air, or whatever, to keep them from doing things you aren't okay with.
If you are sitting on the side lines with a child that is playing and not being nice and that child isn't good with verbal cues, then you should be there in the middle of the play more. Too often, parents step in AFTER the yucky stuff happens instead of preventing it in the first place.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra, about not allowing a child to just continue to do things which
are not OK . . . which ones are or are not OK and when to respond how
to them? I am not sure. Somewhere in here is the line between
parenting and unparenting?***
I think is more of a difference in how you respond, be it verbal or physical. With some kids a quick verbal cue or bit of communication is all that is needed. With other kids it's sometimes better to remove them from the situation, go and do something else, something fun, a change of perspective, a breath of air, or whatever, to keep them from doing things you aren't okay with.
If you are sitting on the side lines with a child that is playing and not being nice and that child isn't good with verbal cues, then you should be there in the middle of the play more. Too often, parents step in AFTER the yucky stuff happens instead of preventing it in the first place.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Jenny Cyphers
***Like just now, he asked his friend to do something and she said "no no no no no no!" and he said "you don't have to say it 10 times" in my exact tone that I use when he doing something that I think is disruptive to normal or kind conversation.***
The use of humor goes a long way! Stopping mid conversation to address a disruptive child goes a long way. Not doing non-interuptable things with a child that disrupts goes a long way!
One thing that I did, that worked really well, was to pull my daughter aside and whisper in her ear. It did a couple of things. It kept my tone kind, after all a whisper is soft. It gave me a chance to give a hug and say something nice and it made it so I wasn't embarrassing or drawing attention to my daughter's behavior that she was likely already feeling uncomfortable about but unable to DO anything about. I'd offer a suggestion on what she could do to change the situation for the better and then she got credit for it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
The use of humor goes a long way! Stopping mid conversation to address a disruptive child goes a long way. Not doing non-interuptable things with a child that disrupts goes a long way!
One thing that I did, that worked really well, was to pull my daughter aside and whisper in her ear. It did a couple of things. It kept my tone kind, after all a whisper is soft. It gave me a chance to give a hug and say something nice and it made it so I wasn't embarrassing or drawing attention to my daughter's behavior that she was likely already feeling uncomfortable about but unable to DO anything about. I'd offer a suggestion on what she could do to change the situation for the better and then she got credit for it.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=- I will take a step back for a while
and think more before I respond. But I am still not sure how to know
when it is appropriate to 'correct' or influence my daughter,
especially in regard to social contexts. She can be quite explosive
when things don't work out how she wants and feels social tension very
acutely. She can also be very demanding of other adults, pushy &
manipulative with other children. I am always trying to point out how
this upsets others etc. -=-
If you're "always" doing something and it's not working out, then stop doing it.
If you're thinking of whether to "correct" or influence her or not, then I'm guessing you're not having casual conversations about these situations, or maybe she's not asking your opinion.
-=- She can be quite explosive
when things don't work out how she wants and feels social tension very
acutely.-=-
Asking her questions (not in a blaming or manipulative way) to help her consider what to do the next time might be helpful, if she's receptive. One question or two. Not half a dozen or ten.
-=-She can also be very demanding of other adults, pushy &
manipulative with other children.-=-
If she sees the consequences of her actions directly, then it will be nothing but irritating for you to tell her what she just observed herself.
I think waiting a while before responding, let some of the instances slide, and saying less when you do speak might help.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
and think more before I respond. But I am still not sure how to know
when it is appropriate to 'correct' or influence my daughter,
especially in regard to social contexts. She can be quite explosive
when things don't work out how she wants and feels social tension very
acutely. She can also be very demanding of other adults, pushy &
manipulative with other children. I am always trying to point out how
this upsets others etc. -=-
If you're "always" doing something and it's not working out, then stop doing it.
If you're thinking of whether to "correct" or influence her or not, then I'm guessing you're not having casual conversations about these situations, or maybe she's not asking your opinion.
-=- She can be quite explosive
when things don't work out how she wants and feels social tension very
acutely.-=-
Asking her questions (not in a blaming or manipulative way) to help her consider what to do the next time might be helpful, if she's receptive. One question or two. Not half a dozen or ten.
-=-She can also be very demanding of other adults, pushy &
manipulative with other children.-=-
If she sees the consequences of her actions directly, then it will be nothing but irritating for you to tell her what she just observed herself.
I think waiting a while before responding, let some of the instances slide, and saying less when you do speak might help.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Robin Bentley
> She can be quite explosiveI wonder if the social situations sheʻs in are too much for your
> when things don't work out how she wants and feels social tension very
> acutely. She can also be very demanding of other adults, pushy &
> manipulative with other children. I am always trying to point out how
> this upsets others etc. Even though she does not like to be excluded
> herself, she can exclude others who she does not really relate to. I
> also notice that my anxious anticipation of 'trouble' in social
> situations, or interference when she is upset often makes the
> situation worse, or is perhaps contributing to a pattern of repetition
> of these behaviors.
daughter? If your child feels stressed in such situations, it will be
harder for her to learn appropriate behavior.
Can you step back from social activities for awhile and see if her
reactions settle down a bit? Maybe reduce the number of children she
plays with to one or two?
I found that my daughter was uncomfortable in groups when she was
younger, so we did a lot of things at home with one friend at a time,
we limited family social gatherings, and stayed away from too much
group involvement. She wasnʻt able to process all the social
requirements of her then. She feels more able to now, at 16, but still
prefers home and one-on-one or small group things.
I think unrealistic expectations of kids can set up an adversarial
relationship between parent and child. Looking at oneʻs own child to
see what *they* need, versus what *we* think they need can be a really
good thing.
Robin B.
plaidpanties666
Catherine Hassall <cat@...> wrote:
When she does get upset, once again try to help rather than interfering - help her feel better about herself and the situation or help her retreat if that's what she needs. Don't try to explain why she should be nicer - no one wants to hear that when they're upset! Commiserate that things don't always go the way she wants and help her find a next best thing - a distraction or an exit, some time alone or time to cuddle with her mom.
---Meredith
>I am still not sure how to knowStep away from the idea of "correct" and think "how can I help?" instead. If she's easily frustrated, can you help smooth things over before she gets (too) frustrated - maybe by offering a diversion? If things are getting tense, is there a way for you to break the tension?
> when it is appropriate to 'correct' or influence my daughter,
> especially in regard to social contexts. She can be quite explosive
> when things don't work out how she wants and feels social tension very
> acutely.
>>She can also be very demanding of other adults, pushy &It might help to keep play-dates small and have older playmates as much as possible - or younger playmates who don't mind following her lead. Set her up so she can succeed on her own terms rather than expecting her to use skills she's not capable of using yet. If she's regularly frustrated with social situations, then she'll have a harder time learning more social skills - frustration gets in the way of learning!
> manipulative with other children.
> I am always trying to point out howIf you're "always" doing it and she's not getting the message, she's not ready. It's like trying to teach reading to a child who isn't ready - you can teach and teach and teach but it won't help. She's not ready to read the cues you're pointing out. So it's better not to put her in situations where she'll be running roughshod over others' feelings - better for them and for her, too. All she can learn from those situations is that she's the bad kid, without being able to control what makes her "bad". Ouch.
> this upsets others etc.
> Even though she does not like to be excludedThat's really normal. Given the choice, she might rather *avoid* those people - but if she's stuck with them she'll exclude them. Give her the option of avoiding them so she's not set up to hurt their feelings in the first place.
> herself, she can exclude others who she does not really relate to
> I also notice that my anxious anticipation of 'trouble' in socialInterfere sooner - by keeping play dates small, for instance, and just with someone she gets along with fairly well. If you know enough to anticipate trouble, you know what sorts of situations to avoid for awhile. Let her have more successes so she's not getting upset.
> situations, or interference when she is upset often makes the
> situation worse
When she does get upset, once again try to help rather than interfering - help her feel better about herself and the situation or help her retreat if that's what she needs. Don't try to explain why she should be nicer - no one wants to hear that when they're upset! Commiserate that things don't always go the way she wants and help her find a next best thing - a distraction or an exit, some time alone or time to cuddle with her mom.
>Somewhere in here is the line betweenNo, its more like the difference between teaching and learning. You're still teaching! And that's not helping her learn. She needs something else from you - she needs you to apply your greater insight and experience earlier in the process, before the trouble ever starts by creating situations that are easier for her to navigate.
> parenting and unparenting?
---Meredith
Sandra Dodd
-=-***I have often read on here, especially from
Sandra, about not allowing a child to just continue to do things which
are not OK . . . which ones are or are not OK and when to respond how
to them? I am not sure. Somewhere in here is the line between
parenting and unparenting?***-=-
Don't think of it as "the line."
Don't think of the dichotomy of unparenting or parenting.
You are a parent. What sort will you be? There is a huge range, and it's not something you decide once and for all, It's the way you come to be gradually as you make decisions and then regret them or feel satisfaction about your choice. You will make ten or a hundred choices in the next few hours. Each one can go any of several ways. Practice making choices that make your life more peaceful, that make sense to you in light of what you believe, and that don't hurt anyone.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra, about not allowing a child to just continue to do things which
are not OK . . . which ones are or are not OK and when to respond how
to them? I am not sure. Somewhere in here is the line between
parenting and unparenting?***-=-
Don't think of it as "the line."
Don't think of the dichotomy of unparenting or parenting.
You are a parent. What sort will you be? There is a huge range, and it's not something you decide once and for all, It's the way you come to be gradually as you make decisions and then regret them or feel satisfaction about your choice. You will make ten or a hundred choices in the next few hours. Each one can go any of several ways. Practice making choices that make your life more peaceful, that make sense to you in light of what you believe, and that don't hurt anyone.
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Sandra Dodd
-=-> I also notice that my anxious anticipation of 'trouble' in social
Make decisions earlier on, but don't think of it or justify it as "interference."
Avoid situations that will lead to failure, frustration, unhappiness, confusion or sorrow. Do that as much as you can with as many people as you can.
-=->Somewhere in here is the line between
-=-No, its more like the difference between teaching and learning. You're still teaching! And that's not helping her learn. She needs something else from you - she needs you to apply your greater insight and experience earlier in the process, before the trouble ever starts by creating situations that are easier for her to navigate. -=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> situations, or interference when she is upset often makes the-=-Interfere sooner - by keeping play dates small, for instance, and just with someone she gets along with fairly well. If you know enough to anticipate trouble, you know what sorts of situations to avoid for awhile. Let her have more successes so she's not getting upset. -=-
> situation worse
Make decisions earlier on, but don't think of it or justify it as "interference."
Avoid situations that will lead to failure, frustration, unhappiness, confusion or sorrow. Do that as much as you can with as many people as you can.
-=->Somewhere in here is the line between
> parenting and unparenting?Meredith wrote this, and I really like it:
-=-No, its more like the difference between teaching and learning. You're still teaching! And that's not helping her learn. She needs something else from you - she needs you to apply your greater insight and experience earlier in the process, before the trouble ever starts by creating situations that are easier for her to navigate. -=-
Sandra
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Lisa
thank you everyone who replied. I got a lot out of all the replies.